afp.relevant
Victoria Martin
I want to put in a plea for giving this a go. The claim that afp.announce
was a failure isn't a good analogy, becausethe name gives the impression
that it's restricted to annoumncements, rather than encouraging a general
discussion. The creation of afp.relevant needn't change anything about
afp itself, that can remain the same high traffic ng we all know and some
of us love. But it would mean that people like me, who really do only
want to read posts that are about the books, wouldn't get bored and go
elsewhere. I've been hanging around in rec.books.tolkien more than in afp
lateley, not because I'm a great Tolkien fan but because every single
post is relevant - some of them are pretty obsessive, but I'd rather read
an obsessive post than one with only the flimsiest connection to the
subject.Go on, orin, give afp.relevant a chance. If it doesn't work out,
at least we'll know that means there aren't enough people interested.
And just to give people something relevant to think about, I've
been thinking quite a lot about Maskerade recently and I think it was a
mistake, for various reasons. Soemone pointed out in a post a while back
that in WS Ankh-Morpork's first theatre is built, yet Maskerasde implies
that the opera house has been around for ages. I don't think the reply
that 'opera is different from theatre' is convincing; I do think the
shift from the Dysk to the Opera House points up a shift in the setting
of Ankh-Morpork. Whereas in TCOM, TLF, S, WS etc. it's essentially Middle
Ages going on Elizabethan, in M it's clearly 19thC (frock, coats, opera
glasses, etc. There's even an explanation as to why printing presses
aren't allowed, since society has clearly reached a technological level
where printing should have been invented). I don't know ho other people
feel, but IMHO the 19thC is not an satisfactory era for the Discworld,
and I wish Pterry hadn't written Maskerade because it plays havoc with
all my conceptions about what DW is like.
And yes, I know the Opera House features importantly in MAA, but
as you don't get to see what goes on inside it, it doesn't have the
implicattions that Maskerade has.
What do people think? Go, flame me.
Victoria
P J Bleackley
not get any relevant stuff on afp anymore. Durham doesn't get afpa or afpb,
and I personally don't think that our newsfeed administrator is a very
persuasible person.
Here's an idea. Why doen't somebody set up shop as the afp abstractor,
and post a regular digest of "The best of afp" to afpa. This would
be mainly relevant stuff, but could also take the odd irrelevant article
here and there, if it were really funny.
--
~~~PETE "QUANTUM" BLEACKLEY~~~
Good evening everybody, and welcome to Surrealists Hieronymous
College of St. Hild and St. Bede~ ~University of Durham
P.J.Bl...@durham.ac.uk ~ http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d20u6s
Dwayne Barch
<Pine.OSF.3.91.96021...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote Soemone
>that in WS Ankh-Morpork's first theatre is built, yet
Maskerasde implies
>that the opera house has been around for ages. I don't
think the reply
>that 'opera is different from theatre' is convincing;
The Opera House is also mentioned in SM- it's where Cliff
and Glod go to "borrow" the organ for the Librarian to play
at their gig in the Drum.
Julie
Bancroft Gracey
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96021...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin (sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk) writes:
>
>I want to put in a plea for giving this a go. The claim that afp.announce
>was a failure isn't a good analogy, becausethe name gives the impression
>that it's restricted to annoumncements, rather than encouraging a general
>discussion. The creation of afp.relevant needn't change anything about
>afp itself, that can remain the same high traffic ng we all know and some
>of us love. But it would mean that people like me, who really do only
>want to read posts that are about the books, wouldn't get bored and go
>elsewhere. I've been hanging around in rec.books.tolkien more than in afp
>lateley, not because I'm a great Tolkien fan but because every single
>post is relevant - some of them are pretty obsessive, but I'd rather read
>an obsessive post than one with only the flimsiest connection to the
>subject.Go on, orin, give afp.relevant a chance. If it doesn't work out,
>at least we'll know that means there aren't enough people interested.
I agree. And given that it'll be an alt.* group, there's no reason
to demonstrate substantial levels of support *before* ng creation,
unlike a big-8 or regional group. I like afp the way it is, but it
is now 95%+ in-jokes, flames and 'social' posts with no connection to
Pterry. So let's take the book-discussions, etc., off somewhere
else.
> And just to give people something relevant to think about, ...
(thereby disproving your own argument, but never mind<g>)
>... I've
>been thinking quite a lot about Maskerade recently and I think it was a
>mistake, for various reasons. Soemone pointed out in a post a while back
>that in WS Ankh-Morpork's first theatre is built, yet Maskerasde implies
>that the opera house has been around for ages. I don't think the reply
>that 'opera is different from theatre' is convincing; I do think the
>shift from the Dysk to the Opera House points up a shift in the setting
>of Ankh-Morpork. Whereas in TCOM, TLF, S, WS etc. it's essentially Middle
>Ages going on Elizabethan, in M it's clearly 19thC (frock, coats, opera
>glasses, etc. There's even an explanation as to why printing presses
>aren't allowed, since society has clearly reached a technological level
>where printing should have been invented). I don't know ho other people
>feel, but IMHO the 19thC is not an satisfactory era for the Discworld,
>and I wish Pterry hadn't written Maskerade because it plays havoc with
>all my conceptions about what DW is like.
> And yes, I know the Opera House features importantly in MAA, but
>as you don't get to see what goes on inside it, it doesn't have the
>implicattions that Maskerade has.
> What do people think? Go, flame me.
Well, if you insist... <g>
I think that shoehorning DW into European/English history is a
mistake. TP is (obviously) influenced by & creating historical
parallels, but the Disk isn't Merrie Olde England (on elephants &
turtle), it's a fantasy background. The links are as often to
imaginary worlds (eg. Cohen, Lancre, Genua) as to history, which,
in any case, tends to be history-as-we-like-to-remember-it rather
than the Real Thing. I don't have any problem with some of the
citizens of A-M wearing frock-coats & top hats while others wander
round in almost anglo-saxon robes or thud-&-blunder heroic leather
or whatever...
Now, Opera & Theatre are (in our world) unrelated areas. While it
can be argued that opera is just another form of musical, in fact
opera is an outgrowth of classical music, entirely distinct from
the theatrical tradition and, even today, having little connection
with it. So, if Pterry wants the Opera House to be older than the
Dysk while maintaining that the Dysk is the first theatre, well, to
my way of thinking, he's absolutely right - because the OH is
*not* a theatre.
Of course, the OH looks like a theatre, and is used for almost
exactly the same commercial purpose, and needs the same kind of
front-of-house & back-stage staff, and so on; but it doesn't put on
mere 'plays', while the Dysk (which, BTW, is an Elizabethan, not a
proscenium(sp), theatre) doesn't try its hand at opera.
Anyway, now we've stuck two threads into one. If this starts a
trend, the volume of posts on afp could drop overnight, thereby
negating the need for afpr...
-bpg-
Mike Knell
P J Bleackley <P.J.Bl...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> I have one reservation about forming afp.relevant, which is that we might
> not get any relevant stuff on afp anymore. Durham doesn't get afpa or afpb,
> and I personally don't think that our newsfeed administrator is a very
> persuasible person.
> Here's an idea. Why doen't somebody set up shop as the afp abstractor,
> and post a regular digest of "The best of afp" to afpa. This would
> be mainly relevant stuff, but could also take the odd irrelevant article
> here and there, if it were really funny.
This would be a *fabulous* idea, provided someone had the time to produce
such a document on a regular basis.
And if your news admin won't carry AFPA, *ask*! If they want proof that
it's a bona fide group, give me a yell, otherwise I might be able to
assist in other ways. AFPA makes it onto the web a couple of weeks behind
(it's updated manually at the mo) -- http://www.lspace.org/afpa/recent/
produces recent-ish postings, updated whenever I get around to sending
out updates and the l-space maintainers get around to installing them.
Mike
--
Mike Knell [ISTP] - m...@bofh.lspace.org - "No, really, it's fine leaving me.."
And when you get BLUE, and you've lost all your dreams..
there's nothing like a CAMPFIRE, and a CAN O'BEANS!
CyberCat
please make sure the articles are also posted in afp, as not all
newsgroups get to all servers.
--
CyberCat <m.la...@student.utwente.nl> (INTP)
CYBERCATS, said Death, CYBERCATS ARE NICE
Mail Alien <al...@lspace.org> for a Newbie introduction.
Worship Tom Brokaw, bring NBC Nightly News to viewers all over the world!
Martin O'Nions
P.J.Bl...@durham.ac.uk "P J Bleackley" writes:
> I have one reservation about forming afp.relevant, which is that we might
> not get any relevant stuff on afp anymore. Durham doesn't get afpa or afpb,
> and I personally don't think that our newsfeed administrator is a very
> persuasible person.
A common problem, particulary with the number of new groups spiralling
out of control (I should know, I newgrouped two of 'em myself).
Somebody suggested going through the formal procedure to create a group
under the rec.* hierarchy, and that would stand a better chance of being
propagated (though possibly not at Durham). Two points in favour of
afp.relevant getting decent propagation are the fact that there's a
virtual guarantee of traffic, and an awful lot of sysadmins/newsadmins
seem to lurk or post here.
> Here's an idea. Why doen't somebody set up shop as the afp abstractor,
> and post a regular digest of "The best of afp" to afpa. This would
> be mainly relevant stuff, but could also take the odd irrelevant article
> here and there, if it were really funny.
>
Sorry - were you volunteering or not?
--
Martin O'Nions [ENTP] Used your LART yet today? mar...@catch22.demon.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________
Father heard his children scream / So he threw them in the stream
Saying, as he drowned the third / "Children should be seen, *not* heard!"
(Harry Graham - Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes
The Bellinghman
>modern life (most notably Moving Pictures, Soul Music and Maskerade)
>need to be
based on a different set of characters to the ones set in
the traditional mediaeval one. Otherwise, the danger is that we'd have
one of those horrible swords-and-starships melanges.
Alan
--
Alan Bellingham Work +44(0)1763-262629 Fax +44(0)1763-260506
'I don't know what to make of alt.fan.pratchett. Risotto would be nice.'
Terry Pratchett writing about afp
The Bellinghman
[snip afpr discussion]
> And just to give people something relevant to think about, I've
>been thinking quite a lot about Maskerade recently and I think it was a
>mistake, for various reasons. Soemone pointed out in a post a while back
>that in WS Ankh-Morpork's first theatre is built, yet Maskerasde implies
>that the opera house has been around for ages. I don't think the reply
>that 'opera is different from theatre' is convincing; I do think the
>shift from the Dysk to the Opera House points up a shift in the setting
>of Ankh-Morpork.
Thank you ... I'm glad someone agrees.
> Whereas in TCOM, TLF, S, WS etc. it's essentially Middle
>Ages going on Elizabethan, in M it's clearly 19thC (frock, coats, opera
>glasses, etc. There's even an explanation as to why printing presses
>aren't allowed, since society has clearly reached a technological level
>where printing should have been invented). I don't know ho other people
>feel, but IMHO the 19thC is not an satisfactory era for the Discworld,
>and I wish Pterry hadn't written Maskerade because it plays havoc with
>all my conceptions about what DW is like.
For me, the problem wasn't that there were 18th C (as I could accept
Maskerade as being) as well as mediaeval stories, but that both were in
the same Witches timeline. _I_ could quite happily accept both novels,
so long as they didn't have any characters in common.
My personal feeling is that the novels that satirise particular parts of
modern life (most notably Moving Pictures, Soul Music and Maskerade)
need to be
> And yes, I know the Opera House features importantly in MAA, but
>as you don't get to see what goes on inside it, it doesn't have the
>implicattions that Maskerade has.
> What do people think? Go, flame me.
>Victoria
Terry Pratchett
I tend to look at it like this:
Discworld is a fantasy world, borrowing a lot of images from this one, and
I think I have some leeway over what I can use provided I don't get
involved in real technological inconsistencies.
There's nothing inconsistent about an opera house. A big building in which
people engage in a dramatic, music based performance could have been
built in Imperial Rome! Come to that, the 17th century all all the
theoretical knowedge neccessary to make moving pictures (several writers
have done stories in which Leonardo invented them) and ancient Athens had
both the theoretical knowledge and technology to make a crude steam-powered
phonograph. Sir George Cayley in (early 1800s, I think) not only built a
man carrying plane but invented light bicycle-type wire wheels to act as
shock absorbers -- he spent ages trying to find a power source and in the
absense of petroleum built, yes, a gunpowder-powered internal combustion engine.
In art, sociology, politics and technology the way things have happened in
this timeline are NOT the way things 'had' to be (imagine a Europe in which,
say, the 17th Century Levellers had gained real political power...)
Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the all the
mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had an industrial
revolution. But people are bright -- their state of mind is pretty
20th century, I think.
My god, we might have a relevant thread...
Does Terry Pratchett post here?
Terry Pratchett
Dick Eney
Mark Styles <ma...@teleord.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <824988...@unseen.demon.co.uk>,
>Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
>>like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the all the
>>mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had an industrial
>>revolution. But people are bright -- their state of mind is pretty
>>20th century, I think.
>
>floating about would not need an industrial revolution, so those
>kinds of technological breakthroughs would never happen, but would
>be replaced by breakthroughs in the field of magic. Therefore, the
>people of Ankh-Morpork, and of the Disc in general are almost
>guaranteed to reach different levels of achievement in different
>areas compared to us in the real world, because some things are
>easier with magic, and I guess some things are easier with technology.
>
>I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
>it just a different kind of pollution?
Considering the condition of the Ankh, I don't think magical worlds are
necessarily less polluted. The Ankh is distinctly acid (no doubt from
the Alchemists as well as the various silversmiths, tanners, etc), though
fish have evolved that can live in it. Magical worlds _could_ be less
polluted. IIRC one was created that had a city with as many gods as A-M,
and one of them was a god that ate filth and defecated pure water, so the
river was clean (all gutters, sewers, etc, went directly to that temple).
P.C.Hodgell's _Godstalk_ that was.[1]
[1] No I don't know whether it was "gods-talk" or "god-stalk", more likely
the second since the main character was a monotheist who had claws.
However, there is the magical pollution itself--the leftovers from the
Mage Wars, the natural pollution of the Ramtops which can cause weird
changes in you without your permission (rather like the
naturally-occurring lead in the water in some areas).
-- Tamar Lindsay (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net with dickeney)
Mark Styles
Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
>like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the all the
>mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had an industrial
>revolution. But people are bright -- their state of mind is pretty
>20th century, I think.
I would tend to assume that any world with large amounts of magic
floating about would not need an industrial revolution, so those
kinds of technological breakthroughs would never happen, but would
be replaced by breakthroughs in the field of magic. Therefore, the
people of Ankh-Morpork, and of the Disc in general are almost
guaranteed to reach different levels of achievement in different
areas compared to us in the real world, because some things are
easier with magic, and I guess some things are easier with technology.
I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
it just a different kind of pollution?
>My god, we might have a relevant thread...
Is that allowed??
>Does Terry Pratchett post here?
Who? :-)
--
** Mark Styles aka Small -- Opinions expressed here are my own -- **
** ma...@teleord.co.uk -- unless otherwise specified -- **
** Make Tea, Not Love **
David Zeraschi
>Mark Styles <ma...@teleord.co.uk> wrote:
>>Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
>>>like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the all the
>>>mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had an industrial
>>>revolution. But people are bright -- their state of mind is pretty
>>>20th century, I think.
>>I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
>>it just a different kind of pollution?
>
>necessarily less polluted. The Ankh is distinctly acid (no doubt from
>the Alchemists as well as the various silversmiths, tanners, etc), though
>fish have evolved that can live in it. Magical worlds _could_ be less
>polluted.
In the Ankh or on it?
>However, there is the magical pollution itself--the leftovers from the
>Mage Wars, the natural pollution of the Ramtops which can cause weird
>changes in you without your permission (rather like the
>naturally-occurring lead in the water in some areas).
The background magical field could also cause genetic mutations that
produce life-froms that have adapted to the conditions in less
generations than would occur naturally. [1]
Now, skipping back in the thread a bit, even if you say that there is a
'natural' progress in history and that, for example, opera and theatre
occur together, then we can always say that, as the Discworld is
magical, the magical field causes 'furure echoes' in the same way that
re-annual plants occur.
Another theory could be that the sparks of inspiration that should have
caused certain things to happen never hit the right brain and we then
have the situation of 17th - 19th century technology mixed with 20th
century mental attitude.
Anyway with 18 books there will be some inconsistencies both internal
and external and we have to have something to post relevant articles
about.
David Z
--
\\\\\ Worship Jimmy Brokaw. /////
\\\\\\\__o Join us in bringing Hedgehogs o__///////
\\\\\\\'/ to the Common Folk. \'///////
[1] I.e. a non-magical world.
P J Bleackley
: In article <4gakti$6...@mercury.dur.ac.uk>
: P.J.Bl...@durham.ac.uk "P J Bleackley" writes:
: > Here's an idea. Why doen't somebody set up shop as the afp abstractor,
: > and post a regular digest of "The best of afp" to afpa. This would
: > be mainly relevant stuff, but could also take the odd irrelevant article
: > here and there, if it were really funny.
: >
: Sorry - were you volunteering or not?
Although I'd love to be able to back this idea up with practical action,
I'm not in a position to do so at the moment (finals next term :-( ).
Would anybody else like to volunteer?
Paul A Rood
] I would tend to assume that any world with large amounts of magic
] floating about would not need an industrial revolution, so those
] kinds of technological breakthroughs would never happen, but would
] be replaced by breakthroughs in the field of magic.
I recall reading fantasy books where the main idea and plot
is that Magic has been forgotten or replaced by technology.
In effect a "fantasy industrial revolution". In most of these books
the whole story centres around an individual who "rediscovers"
magic or the need to get it back.
The reasons given for the *loss* of magic have tended to be
something along the lines of it not being practical, or
accessible to enough people. The need for everyone to be
able to have access to benefits of magic led people to find
alternatives and when they found they could do it better,
magic was replaced and slow lost.
Saying that, magic is everywhere on the Disc, and is strong
in many places, it is also, in many cases accessible (the picture box)
so this could lead to the conclusion that people on the Discworld just
never bothered to invent other ways of doing things. Wizards have
a reputation of "coming down hard" on anyone trying unlicensed magic (Moving
Pictures, the Alchemists fear of the Wizards saying moving picture are magic).
In this case, the invention turned out to be bad for the Disc, but what if,
someone were to challenge the wizards for supremacy with a new invention
and they were forced to fight back?
They might even have to employ an advertising agency to boost their
popularity:0)
A hostile take over of Unseen University? Unseen university share options?
] >Does Terry Pratchett post here?
Only when he's not trimming the hedge:-)
--
Paul A Rood
Chris Arguin
> In article <824988...@unseen.demon.co.uk>,
> Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
> >like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the all the
> >mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had an industrial
> >revolution. But people are bright -- their state of mind is pretty
> >20th century, I think.
>
> I would tend to assume that any world with large amounts of magic
> floating about would not need an industrial revolution, so those
> kinds of technological breakthroughs would never happen, but would
> be replaced by breakthroughs in the field of magic. Therefore, the
> people of Ankh-Morpork, and of the Disc in general are almost
> guaranteed to reach different levels of achievement in different
> areas compared to us in the real world, because some things are
> easier with magic, and I guess some things are easier with technology.
>
> I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
> it just a different kind of pollution?
A differnent kind of pollution. And the people of Ank-Morpork may be
brighter, but that's just the magic.
Actually, considering the sort of magic the wizards usually do, I
don't think that it makes much easier, except perhaps being a wizzard.
> >My god, we might have a relevant thread...
>
> Is that allowed??
As long as the rest of AFP doesn't notice... Just don't think about it.
--
Chris Arguin | "...All we had were Zeros and Ones -- And
c...@hopper.unh.edu | sometimes we didn't even have Ones."
+--------------+ - Dilbert, by Scott Adams
http://leonardo.sr.unh.edu/arguin/home.html |
Terry Pratchett
Don't forget that people a thousand years ago were not less intelligent
than us --they merely didn't know as much stuff (and knew stuff we don't)
And factor in also narrative casuality -- Discworld history draws into
itself parastic story lines.
Terry Pratchett
John Fouhy
> floating about would not need an industrial revolution, so those
I get the impression it doesn't want one either... Ankh-Morpokian
philosophy tends away from the "Why is this so?" question and more
towards the "How can I make money out of this?"...
Possibly the only ones interested in science would be the alchemists (or
the guys in HEM?), but no one takes them seriously, except when they blow
up next door..
> be replaced by breakthroughs in the field of magic. Therefore, the
I think they'd rather nothing broke through, thanks all the same...
> people of Ankh-Morpork, and of the Disc in general are almost
> guaranteed to reach different levels of achievement in different
> areas compared to us in the real world, because some things are
> easier with magic, and I guess some things are easier with technology.
Easy with magic? Not really...
Anyone can work a television (unfortunately?), but how many can build 'em?
To work magin on the DW you need to know how, which takes some
training... (actually, I remember seeing somewhere that magic in itself
is quite easy - it's just that magic without getting yourself eaten or
worse by beasties from the DD is more difficult... ;-) )
> I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
> it just a different kind of pollution?
Yep - magic. Magic trapped in books is especially dangerous, as after the
writer's death it starts to /leak/....
Rimwards countries just dumped them over the Edge, but Hubwards places
didn't have that option... Burrying them resulted in walking trees and
5-headed fauna, and the peasants complained, so in the end they had to
store them in Libraries...
> >Does Terry Pratchett post here?
> Who? :-)
You know. Author. Writes...wossname - books about this place on a giant
turtle or something. Supposed to be quite good.
Dwayne Barch
David Zeraschi <Da...@zeras.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Dick Eney <dick...@access2.digex.net> writes
>>Mark Styles <ma...@teleord.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of
Ankh-Morpork, I'd say it's
>>>>like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world
where the all the
>>>>mythological fauna never went away, and which has never
had an industrial
>>>>revolution. But people are bright -- their state of
mind is pretty
>>>>20th century, I think.
>>>I guess that means that magical worlds would be less
polluted, or is
>>>it just a different kind of pollution?
>>
Fantasy fiction: imaginative fiction dependent for effect on
strangeness of setting (as other worlds and/or times) and of
characters (as supernatural or unnatural beings); writings
using the power or process of creating mental images as of
unrealistic or improbable happenings or distortions of
previously perceived persons, places and objects....
If DW was logical, it wouldn't be half as fun.
Julie
Chris Hopkin
Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
> Don't forget that people a thousand years ago were not less intelligent
> than us --they merely didn't know as much stuff (and knew stuff we don't)
Not so.
(1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
score highly on an IQ test.
(2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
link between knowledge and intelligence.
--
***************************************************************************
* This space available for rent - enquiries to ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk *
***************************************************************************
James Joseph Cook
: Not so.
: (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
: score highly on an IQ test.
That's true, becuase the Binet-Simon IQ test, and the scale it
represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
: (2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
: link between knowledge and intelligence.
No, there isn't. Intelligence and knowledge are pretty much independant
of each other. You can have recall of a lot of information, but htat
doesn't mean you have a higher level of intelligence. Look at "idot
savants". They can tell you exacly how many bricks it will take to build
a certain builing, or what day of the week it will be on July 4, 5996,
but he might not be able to correctly operate a doorknob, or use toilet
paper correctly.
Likewise, someone who has never gone to school a day in thier life, and
who lives in such a bad environment that most knowledge is restricted
(think of the children who grow up in Public Housing, like Cabrini Green
in Chicago), they may not know who the 23rd pope was, or what the
chemical formula for sugar is, but they may score very high on
intelligence tests.
Intelligence is a measure of cognative processing ability, knowledge is
just stuff you know.
JiM
: --
: ***************************************************************************
: * This space available for rent - enquiries to ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk *
: ***************************************************************************
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any similarity between my views and those of the George Washington
University, Washington, DC, are purely coincidental. If you've got a
problem with that, piss on you. <ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Zeraschi
[ snip ]
>If DW was logical, it wouldn't be half as fun.
>
>Julie
No, the Discworld is basically logical. It isn't the same type of logic
as we assume to be the case on earth but it does have a certain logic.
It may be twisted, [1] it may be strange, but you can always follow the
steps. You just have to allow for a different set of physical laws.
You have to remeber that when you are reading a book, you have to
suspend your belief in reality and you will fail if the universe the
writer is portraying is illogical or inconsistent. If you keep thinking
"That isn't logical" then you are going to lose out reading pTerry.
Anyway, part of the fun reading the books is taking some of the ideas to
their logical [2] conclusion.
David Z
--
\\\\\ Worship Jimmy Brokaw. /////
\\\\\\\__o Join us in bringing Hedgehogs o__///////
\\\\\\\'/ to the Common Folk. \'///////
[1] Possibly sprained.
[2] Or even illogical.
Bancroft Gracey
In article <828503...@cmacloed.demon.co.uk>,
Paul A Rood (Pa...@cmacloed.demon.co.uk) writes:
>[snip]
>I recall reading fantasy books where the main idea and plot
>is that Magic has been forgotten or replaced by technology.
>In effect a "fantasy industrial revolution". In most of these books
>the whole story centres around an individual who "rediscovers"
>magic or the need to get it back.
Suggestion for background reading: Barbara Hambly's books 'The
Silent Tower', 'The Silicon Mage', 'Dog Wizard' and 'Sorcerer's
Ward' have a rather different take on this. The magic doesn't so
much go away as be repressed, so that an industrial revolution can
take place. The wizards, however, _don't_ go away...
-bpg-
"Really? But I do have a two-speed hedgecutter." - T. Pratchett
Matthew Skala
>
>I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
>it just a different kind of pollution?
>
Why would low tech == low pollution? Consider the Ankh - any water that
has passed through so many kidneys has to be very pure indeed. And coal
smoke is coal smoke whether it's coming from a hearth fire or a power plant.
From what I have read, olden times were just as polluting as new, though
*some* of it was different kinds of pollution. Exon[1] stinks in any
century.
[1] Pardon my Merkin.
--
Matthew Skala, who writes C under OS/2 for money and Perl under Linux for fun.
All the usual disclaimers apply. In cyberspace, you can hear everyone scream.
Hit me:http://www.islandnet.com/~mskala/ Permanent email:msk...@islandnet.com.
=========== PLEASE IMAGINE THAT THIS LINE IS AN EFF "BLUE RIBBON" ============
John Fouhy
Chris Hopkin <Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Don't forget that people a thousand years ago were not less intelligent
> > than us --they merely didn't know as much stuff (and knew stuff we don't)
> score highly on an IQ test.
How do you know? Met any neanderthals lately?
Anyway, if you could write one he could understand...
(of course a cave man wouldn't score highly on a modern-day IQ test..)
> (2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
> link between knowledge and intelligence.
There is a quote. I forget by whom. It states:
"Intelligence is not how much you know. It is what you do when you don't
know what to do."
Mr K D Branch
ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
>Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: Not so.
>
>: score highly on an IQ test.
>
>represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
>gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
>he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
>in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
evolution. The whole point of the evolutionary theory is that we all
started off as some amoeba foating around in a pile of goo. Amoeba's
are not known for acheiving high IQ scores. IQ (according to said
evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
caveman and finally modern man.
If you don't believe in evolution then fair nuff.
But if you have evolution, you have rising IQ.
>
>: (2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
>: link between knowledge and intelligence.
>
>No, there isn't. Intelligence and knowledge are pretty much independant
>of each other. You can have recall of a lot of information, but htat
>doesn't mean you have a higher level of intelligence. Look at "idot
>savants". They can tell you exacly how many bricks it will take to build
>a certain builing, or what day of the week it will be on July 4, 5996,
>but he might not be able to correctly operate a doorknob, or use toilet
>paper correctly.
>
>Likewise, someone who has never gone to school a day in thier life, and
>who lives in such a bad environment that most knowledge is restricted
>(think of the children who grow up in Public Housing, like Cabrini Green
>in Chicago), they may not know who the 23rd pope was, or what the
>chemical formula for sugar is, but they may score very high on
>intelligence tests.
>
>Intelligence is a measure of cognative processing ability, knowledge is
>just stuff you know.
Here, however, you are spot on; knowedge is just memory.
Kev.
Emmet O'Brien
> IIRC one was created that had a city with as many gods as A-M,
>and one of them was a god that ate filth and defecated pure water, so the
>river was clean (all gutters, sewers, etc, went directly to that temple).
>P.C.Hodgell's _Godstalk_ that was.[1]
>
>[1] No I don't know whether it was "gods-talk" or "god-stalk", more likely
>the second since the main character was a monotheist who had claws.
_God Stalk_ it is. Marvellous book. _Dark of the Moon_ and _Seeker's
Mask_ stay that good, too. Haven't read _Blood and Ivory_ yet.
Emmet
--
There was an old man from Peru
Whose limericks all end at line two.
Andrew Mobbs
>> than us --they merely didn't know as much stuff (and knew stuff we don't)
>
>
>(1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
>score highly on an IQ test.
PTerry didn't say 'cave-man', he said 'people a thousand years
ago'. There hasn't been much in the way of evoloution since then.
>(2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
>link between knowledge and intelligence.
No,
I'm afraid that the best I can do from here is Webster's
[df]ictionary, but even that clearly defines the differance.
In.tel.li.gence \in-'tel-*-j*n(t)s\ n often attrib 1a1: the capacity
to apprehend facts and propositions and their relations and to reason
about them :
knowl.edge \'na:l-ij\ n [ME knowlege, fr. knowlechen to acknowledge,
irreg. fr. knowenX obs 1: COGNIZANCE 2a1: the fact or condition of
knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or
association.
So, knowledge is actually knowing something (surprisingly enough),
intelligence is the capacity to gain knowledge.
Andrew.
--
Andrew Mobbs, Trinity Hall, Cambridge. |"And all I know for sure
email : aj...@hermes.cam.ac.uk | All I know for real
WWW : http://hammer.chu.cam.ac.uk/~ajm46 | Is knowing doesn't mean so much" AE
Tornado WWW page : http://hammer.chu.cam.ac.uk/~ajm46/tornado.html
Jay Finch
<snipping vigourously>
: There is a quote. I forget by whom. It states:
: "Intelligence is not how much you know. It is what you do when you don't
: know what to do."
I believe that quote was by Robert Heinlein, either in his "Time
Enough for Love" book, or one of his other, thoughful novels. [1]
Jay
[1] I always thought that he had a good idea w/ those 'thoughts' in his
novel.
...Thoroughly enjoying reading this thread...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Finch : Nuclear weapons for this .sig provided by
President/GKE of NERO-Atlanta : Rick's Theatrical Props, Hollywood.
(770) 393-8485 (voice) :
ho...@photobooks.com : "Sometimes your grasp of the obvious
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Tim Oddy
>Mark Styles <ma...@teleord.co.uk> wrote:
<much sniping>
>> I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
>> it just a different kind of pollution?
>Yep - magic. Magic trapped in books is especially dangerous, as after the
>writer's death it starts to /leak/....
>Rimwards countries just dumped them over the Edge, but Hubwards places
>didn't have that option... Burrying them resulted in walking trees and
>5-headed fauna, and the peasants complained, so in the end they had to
>store them in Libraries...
For an interesting perspective on Magical Pollution see The Toxic
Spell Dump by, I think, Harry Turtledove. Its rather good, OK TP it
aint but there is life beyond afp....honest :-)
--
Tim Oddy t...@flexagon.u-net.com http://www.u-net.com/~flexagon
"If the apple won't fall, lets go and shake the tree." Sir Isacc Newton.
Victoria Martin
On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Terry Pratchett wrote:
> (about the tecnological state of Ankh-Morpork and the existence of the
Opera House)
>
> And factor in also narrative casuality -- Discworld history draws into
> itself parastic story lines.
>
> Terry Pratchett
>
>
*This* is an explanation that makes narrative sense. It wasn't the
existence of the opera house per se that was bothering me, it was what
happened inside it. I don't know much about the history of opera, but I
do know it's been around a long time, and was certainly being performed
in the 17th century (vice the comment that Ankh-Morpork is a bit like
17th C London) It was the drinks at the interval and the big
chandelier and the red velvet seats and the ballet dancers living on the
premises that worried me. But of course all that will follow the pull of
the narrative - if it's necessary for the story of the Phantom then it
will appear.
The *other* reason why I was unhappy with Maskerade was the quite
awesome status granny weatherwax acquires. It seems to have reached the
point where nothing can possibly stand up to her, not even Death (and, to
be quite honest - sorry if this sounds rude, Terry hadn't posted in a long
time when i started this thread, so it wasn't intended to sound like 'my
advice to the author, this is how you should have written the book', just a
hopefully relevant discussion with fellow
Discworld admirers - er, where was I? Oh yes, I don't see the narrative
point of Granny's little encounter with Death. It doesn't add anything to
the plot or to her character; what it does do is build up the reader's
awareness of her power to the point where you know she could take on
anybody and win - see all those discussions on afp about Granny vs the
Luggage
etc - so that there's a loss of dramatic tension in the story). In ER and
WS it's Granny's limitations which make her such a terrific character -
her prejudices and her bullying and so on. And in
L&L she's weakened by the fear that she's going to die, so that the
tension is maintained in spite of her increasing powers.. But in
Maskerade she reigns supreme, and that's somehow less interesting.You
just know she'll do the right thing and that's that.
Yours relevantly
Victoria
Eleanor Blair
discussion (complete with wisdom from the man himself) it just happens to
be about the only book I haven't yet read and therefore I can't read
it cos of the spoilers...........
Not that I'm complaining or anything...:-)
While I'm here: I've acquired a cookie recipe requiring Hershey Bars
in it and was wondering if any of you nice merkins who've been over here
(or English people who've been to Merkia) could remind me what the
nearest English equivalent is........
(knowing me this is gonna turn out to be something in one of the FAQ's
but hey who cares:-)
love n hugs
LNR
ps Maskerade does sound interstin an I can't wait for the cheaperback
but is a whole year between the hardback and cheaperback usual? Its
just that there isn't a cheaperback out this next release is there...
--
Some people believe that chocolate releases the some of the same hormones as
sex. They are wrong. Sex releases some of the same hormones as chocolate.
The Subject Title
>
>In article <828503...@cmacloed.demon.co.uk>,
> Paul A Rood (Pa...@cmacloed.demon.co.uk) writes:
>>[snip]
>>I recall reading fantasy books where the main idea and plot
>>is that Magic has been forgotten or replaced by technology.
>
>Silent Tower', 'The Silicon Mage', 'Dog Wizard' and 'Sorcerer's
>Ward' have a rather different take on this. The magic doesn't so
>much go away as be repressed, so that an industrial revolution can
>take place. The wizards, however, _don't_ go away...
And on a completely different slant, Weis & Hickmans "Darksword
Trilogy" has a world where there is NO technology at all -
no tools, no steel/wood weapons, no machines, nothing.
Absolutely everything is done by magic.
Nearly everyone has magical ability (except for the odd few
who are outcasts and considered "dead") of some sort or other.
Magic is the only science and those few that do create some sort
of technology (eg. a simple tool such as a lever) are shunned.
Steve.
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Email: s...@sv1.smb.man.ac.uk <*> [INXJ] //// |
| Web: http://s10d.smb.man.ac.uk/~spb/personal.html (o o) |
+---------------------------------------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-+
Leo Breebaart
> > Don't forget that people a thousand years ago were not less intelligent
> > than us --they merely didn't know as much stuff (and knew stuff we don't)
>
> Not so.
>
> (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
> score highly on an IQ test.
This may say more about the IQ test then about the cave-man, and I dare you
to give a definition of "pure intelligence" that is generally accepted.
In any case, Terry said: "people a thousand years ago". Bringing cave-men
into the discussion seems a bit irrelevant. You can't honestly be believing
that we are evolutionally different from the people living in 1096, can
you?
--
Leo Breebaart (l...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl)
James Price
(es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article <4gq49g$1...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>,
: ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
: >Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: >
: >: (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
: >: score highly on an IQ test.
: >That's true, becuase the Binet-Simon IQ test, and the scale it
: >gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
: >he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
: >in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
: This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
: evolution. The whole point of the evolutionary theory is that we all
: started off as some amoeba foating around in a pile of goo. Amoeba's
: are not known for acheiving high IQ scores. IQ (according to said
: evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
: caveman and finally modern man.
: If you don't believe in evolution then fair nuff.
: But if you have evolution, you have rising IQ.
Increases over a few tens of thousands of years OK. However the original
poster (whoever that was!) said 'last thousand years' over which time
evolution has had little time to come into play.
: >
: >: (2) Education of the masses has improved knowledge, and there is a direct
: >: link between knowledge and intelligence.
: >
: >No, there isn't. Intelligence and knowledge are pretty much independant
: >of each other. You can have recall of a lot of information, but htat
: >doesn't mean you have a higher level of intelligence. Look at "idot
: >savants". They can tell you exacly how many bricks it will take to build
: >a certain builing, or what day of the week it will be on July 4, 5996,
: >but he might not be able to correctly operate a doorknob, or use toilet
: >paper correctly.
: >
: >Likewise, someone who has never gone to school a day in thier life, and
: >who lives in such a bad environment that most knowledge is restricted
: >(think of the children who grow up in Public Housing, like Cabrini Green
: >in Chicago), they may not know who the 23rd pope was, or what the
: >chemical formula for sugar is, but they may score very high on
: >intelligence tests.
: >
: >Intelligence is a measure of cognative processing ability, knowledge is
: >just stuff you know.
: Here, however, you are spot on; knowedge is just memory.
: Kev.
Agreed there - intelligence could be classed as how you apply your knowledge
and how you react when the knowledge runs out...
All massively *I*
Cheers,
James.
--
Dr James Price j.c.w...@shef.ac.uk
-------------------------------------------------
"Big whorls have little whorls that feed on their vorticity,
and little whorls have lesser whorls and so on to viscosity."
-- L.F.Richardson
Mr K D Branch
>K D Branch
> (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
>: ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
>: >Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: >: Not so.
>: >
>: >: (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
>: >: score highly on an IQ test.
>: >
>: >That's true, becuase the Binet-Simon IQ test, and the scale it
>: >represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
>: >gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
>: >he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
>: >in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
>
>: This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
>: evolution. The whole point of the evolutionary theory is that we all
>: started off as some amoeba foating around in a pile of goo. Amoeba's
>: are not known for acheiving high IQ scores. IQ (according to said
>: evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
>: caveman and finally modern man.
>:
>: If you don't believe in evolution then fair nuff.
>:
>: But if you have evolution, you have rising IQ.
>
>Increases over a few tens of thousands of years OK. However the original
>poster (whoever that was!) said 'last thousand years' over which time
>evolution has had little time to come into play.
>
Maybe not the last thousand years, but certainly if we go back to
cavemen (significantly more than a mere millenia ago) you could
expect a real reduction in IQ.
Kev.
Dick Eney
James Price <j.c.w...@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>In alt.fan.pratchett on 26 Feb 1996 Mr K D Branch
> (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
>: In article <4gq49g$1...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>,
>: ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
>: >Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: >: (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
>: >: score highly on an IQ test.
>: >
>: >That's true, becuase the Binet-Simon IQ test, and the scale it
>: >represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
>: >gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
>: >he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
>: >in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
>
>: This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
>: evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
>: caveman and finally modern man.
>
>Increases over a few tens of thousands of years OK. However the original
>poster (whoever that was!) said 'last thousand years' over which time
>evolution has had little time to come into play.
>
>: >Likewise, someone who has never gone to school a day in thier life, and
>: >who lives in such a bad environment that most knowledge is restricted
>: >(think of the children who grow up in Public Housing, like Cabrini Green
>: >in Chicago), they may not know who the 23rd pope was, or what the
>: >chemical formula for sugar is, but they may score very high on
>: >intelligence tests.
>intelligence could be classed as how you apply your knowledge
>and how you react when the knowledge runs out...
>
>All massively *I*
> James.
However, it has been shown (recent article in _Science_, I think it was)
that better nutrition in infancy and early childhood, combined with
proper stimuli at the developmentally necessary times, leads to
astounding multiplication of neurons and connections between neurons,
which are positively correlated with greater intelligence later in life.
In the last thousand years, infant and early childhod nutrition
has, on the whole, been improved.
Or, as the cultural observation that has been proven correct in empirical
studies reveals: Fat kids are smarter.
-- Tamar Lindsay (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net)
Christopher Joseph
>>it just a different kind of pollution?
>*some* of it was different kinds of pollution. Exon[1] stinks in any
>century.
Actually, for much{1} of the earth's past, the pollution *per person* was
far higher than the current level... it's just that there are an awful
lot more people around now, and most of the old pollution is still
hanging around in the atmosphere...
>[1] Pardon my Merkin.
On this occasion, yes. But /DON'T/ do it again.
Sayonara, Chris/Ranma...
{1} Well, some, anyway... I don't know the actual figures...
--
*************************************************************************
* My name in lights. * The Chris/Ranma personality *
* Here. Soon. On Ethernet <YAAY!> * Gestalt can be contacted at: *
* Coming soon to a monitor near you * Trin...@Sable.ox.ac.uk *
James Brokaw
> It's a type of Choclate, dark choclate, so any plain
> chocolate should do.
Dark chocolate? *DARK* chocolate?!?! Dark chocolate is a a delight[1]
most people never get to try. Before attempting to eat dark chocolate,
enroll in a proper chocolate-eating course with a qualified instructor
who stresses quality, not quantity. Hershey's is an extremely light
chocolate.
> I perfer my hershey bar in Sommores(sp?)
S'mores. :)
--
\\\\\ ----> hedg...@photobooks.com <----
\\\\\\\__o Bringing hedgehogs to the common folk since 1994.
__\\\\\\\'/________________________________________________________
[1] Only if you're trained properly, and done the correct exercises
before attempting to eat it, etc.
Victoria Martin
>
> On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Terry Pratchett wrote:
>
> (about the tecnological state of Ankh-Morpork and the existence of the
> Opera House)
>
> And factor in also narrative casuality -- Discworld history draws into
> itself parastic story lines.
>
> Terry Pratchett
> > > >
*This* is an explanation that makes narrative sense. It wasn't the
existence of the opera house per se that was bothering me, it was what
happened inside it. I don't know much about the history of opera, but I
do know it's been around a long time, and was certainly being performed
in the 17th century (vice the comment that Ankh-Morpork is a bit like
17th C London) It was the drinks at the interval and the big
chandelier and the red velvet seats and the ballet dancers living on the
premises that worried me. But of course all that will follow the pull of
the narrative - if it's necessary for the story of the Phantom then it
will appear.
Victoria
Greebo
>
> In article: <4gs7d7$c...@news.ox.ac.uk> hert...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Eleanor Blair) writes:
>
> ] While I'm here: I've acquired a cookie recipe requiring Hershey Bars
> ] in it and was wondering if any of you nice merkins who've been over here
> ] (or English people who've been to Merkia) could remind me what the
> ] nearest English equivalent is........
>
> chocolate should do.
>
Not necessarily. Hershey's can also be milk chocolate.
My favourite is the Hershey bar with Almonds in (can't for the life of
me remember what it is called though). Still doesn't come anywhere near
a Cadbury's Fruit'n'Nut...
--
John -----------------------------
| New to AFP? For a newbie |
| pack, mail Al...@lspace.org |
-----------------------------
James Brokaw
> While I'm here: I've acquired a cookie recipe requiring Hershey Bars
> in it and was wondering if any of you nice merkins who've been over here
> (or English people who've been to Merkia) could remind me what the
> nearest English equivalent is........
Um. Perhaps a Cadbury's bar, although there is a very distinct
difference. Hershey bars are just plain US-Style[1] chocolate. Not
baking chocolate or anything, just the cheap stuff you buy and gorge on.
Depending on the recipe, Cadbury's might work, but I have this nagging
feeling it would melt too soon. Er, Shirley you will find a nice
substitute. Look for candy chocolate with nothing in it. :)
--
\\\\\ ----> hedg...@photobooks.com <----
\\\\\\\__o Bringing hedgehogs to the common folk since 1994.
__\\\\\\\'/________________________________________________________
[1] I've eaten far too many chocolates....
Paul A Rood
] Paul A Rood (Pa...@cmacloed.demon.co.uk) wrote:
]
] > It's a type of Choclate, dark choclate, so any plain
] > chocolate should do.
]
] Dark chocolate? *DARK* chocolate?!?! Dark chocolate is a a delight[1]
Yeah, alright, it was late so leave me alone, OK?
It's not my fault if it's been too long since I
went to th US.
I'm sorry OK.
Grud, talk about touchy:-)
--
Paul A Rood
Bjoern Eriksson
>
> j.c.w...@shef.ac.uk writes:
> >K D Branch
> > (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
> >: ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
> >: >Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >: >
> >: >: (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
> >: >: score highly on an IQ test.
> >: >
> >: >That's true, becuase the Binet-Simon IQ test, and the scale it
> >: >represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
> >: >gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
> >: >he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
> >: >in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
> >
> >: This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
> >: started off as some amoeba foating around in a pile of goo. Amoeba's
> >: evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
> >: caveman and finally modern man.
> >:
> >:
> >
> >Increases over a few tens of thousands of years OK. However the original
> >poster (whoever that was!) said 'last thousand years' over which time
> >evolution has had little time to come into play.
> >
>
> cavemen (significantly more than a mere millenia ago) you could
> expect a real reduction in IQ.
>
> Kev.
The forst modern men replaced Homo neanderthalensis about 9000 BC
That gives us 11000 years. Far too less for the evolutiuon to do
any greater work with the intelligence.
Bj|rn
Glenn Brady
Fouhy) wrote:
> > (1) Pure 'intelligence' has improved with evolution. A cave-man would not
> > score highly on an IQ test.
>
> How do you know? Met any neanderthals lately?
>
They're all over the TV in Australia at the moment. We've got a
federal election tomorrow (March 2nd). One of them will be the next
Prime Minister.
A few troglodytes get a run now and then, usually from the Queensland
National Party. :-)
* Internet: gro...@ne.com.au *"That the Monster was Frankenstein"*
* http://www.ne.com.au/~groucho/ * A common misconception, held by *
* * all truly stupid people." *
* FidoNet:Not for the time being * - Kryten, 'Quarantine' *
Dick Eney
Ben of Bens <B.Hal...@ch.ic.ac.uk> wrote:
>David Zeraschi wrote:
>> Dick Eney <dick...@access2.digex.net> writes
>> >Mark Styles <ma...@teleord.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>>Insofar as I have any clear mental picture of Ankh-Morpork, I'd say
>> >>>it's like a London that got stuck circa 1700, in a world where the
>> >>>all the mythological fauna never went away, and which has never had
>> >>>an industrial revolution.
>> [ snip ]
>> >>I guess that means that magical worlds would be less polluted, or is
>> >>it just a different kind of pollution?
>> >
>> >are necessarily less polluted. The Ankh is distinctly acid (no doubt
>> >from the Alchemists as well as the various silversmiths, tanners,
>> >etc), though fish have evolved that can live in it. Magical worlds
>> >_could_ be less polluted.
>
>I take issue with this - mention has been made of the purity of Ankh
>waters (due to its repeated traversion of the human liver); however
>this purification process should leave the river more alkaline.
>>
TL back again: But it is clearly stated that Ridcully's boots from being
a Rowing Brown were acid-eaten -- you can't row, so they walk in line
carrying oars IIRC, and heavy boots are absolutely necessary because the
water of the Ankh will eat them away.
>In the Ankh - can't remember the exact book - but during a discussion of
>Ridcully's fishing Ankh fish are mentioned (they explode when you bring
>them to the surface)
>[rest (magic mutations) snipped]
>
>Ben
-- Tamar (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net)
I wonder what kind of fishing line Ridcully uses?
Dick Eney
Mr K D Branch <es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <4...@shoebox.win-uk.net>,
> banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net (Bancroft Gracey) writes:
<snip, slash, rend, tear>
>>Incidentally, it's believed that 'cave-men' had larger brains than
>>modern man.
>
>Elephants have bloody big brains as well y'know.
>
>This is not relevant as IQ is about the interconnectivity in the brain.
>
>Not size.
>
>Kev.
Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
social animals. Their brains are complexly interconnected as well as
large in proportion to their bodies. Cro-Magnon man had a larger brain
than modern man (on average) according to measurements of the existing
skulls.
Mr K D Branch
>>In article <4gq49g$1...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>,
>> ji...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Joseph Cook) writes:
>>>Chris Hopkin (Ch...@scrofula.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>>>: Not so.
>>>
>>>: score highly on an IQ test.
>>>
>>>represents, was designed for children, and not adults. However, if you
>>>gave a "caveman" a test based on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,
>>>he would probably do about average, as long as the tasks are formulated
>>>in such a way as to be applicapble to the "caveman's" level of knowledge.
>>
>>This is I'm afriad utter poo my friend. Intelligence HAS risen with
>>evolution. The whole point of the evolutionary theory is that we all
>>started off as some amoeba foating around in a pile of goo. Amoeba's
>>are not known for acheiving high IQ scores. IQ (according to said
>>evolutionary theory) increases with each step up through to ape, onto
>>caveman and finally modern man.
>>
>>If you don't believe in evolution then fair nuff.
>>
>>But if you have evolution, you have rising IQ.
>
>Sorry, but there it is.
>
>There is no particular reason to think that intelligence is
>*necessarily* a survival trait; the only other existing species
>group that can be accused of intelligence (dolphins & whales)
>patently _don't_ use their brainpower to alter their environment,
>as humans & (to a lesser extent) other primates do.
Oh no? so what is the human race's cheif survival trait if it isn't
intelligence?
I'm not saying it's the only survival triat in the world ever but
it certainly is a trait.
On a lighter note, about the dolphins; man has always considered
themselves more intelligent than dolphins cos we invented stuff
and built stuff and killed each other in more sophisticated ways
wheras all dolphins do is hang around jumping though hoops, eating
fish and generally having a good time. It is said dolphins
consider themselves more intelligent for EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS.
Mark Lowes
On 4 Mar 1996 02:42:21 GMT, in <4hdlad$q...@agate.berkeley.edu>
b...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Ben Waggoner) wrote.....
>Mr K D Branch (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
[Dolphins]
>I hope no one's too attached to Warwick, because it's going to be buried
>in twelve feet of coleslaw in just a few minutes. That should teach this
>yobbo to drop extended, uncredited Piers Anthony quotes in afp.
Strange i could have sworn that was a Douglas Adams quote. Or did he
nick it from Piers Anthony?
Mark
--
Mark <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk> Modified afpquotient : 0.0607
The Flying Hamster Listserver : send 'index' to list...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk
The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you have it made.
Midnight Tree Bandit
>Mr K D Branch (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
>: On a lighter note, about the dolphins; man has always considered
>: themselves more intelligent than dolphins cos we invented stuff
[cut for brevity]
>DEFCON 1. Standing by to fire Intercontinental Ballistic Coleslaw Missles.
[missile drops snipped]
>I hope no one's too attached to Warwick, because it's going to be buried
>in twelve feet of coleslaw in just a few minutes. That should teach this
>yobbo to drop extended, uncredited Piers Anthony quotes in afp.
Ben? That was Douglas Adams. ppoint pplease.... :)
-=><=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
100,000 druids can't be wrong! | \| | Keeper of
Rev. Midnight Tree Bandit (ULC) | \\| |\__o The Arboretum
mtba...@io.com | __\\| |\`/ Hedgehog Sanctuary
http://www.io.com/~mtbandit/ | /____\ <----(actual photo)
J C Tyerman
attributed though.
Jon.
Lee Staniforth
<m...@bofh.lspace.org> writes
>In article <4he9rc$4...@nntp-1.io.com>,
>Midnight Tree Bandit <mtba...@io.com> wrote:
>> Sometime in the last week or so, Ben Waggoner scrawled:
>>
>> >in twelve feet of coleslaw in just a few minutes. That should teach this
>> >yobbo to drop extended, uncredited Piers Anthony quotes in afp.
>>
>> Ben? That was Douglas Adams. ppoint pplease.... :)
>
>a) Rob's web work (a large chunk of L-space)
>b) alt.fan.pratchett.announce (Kill me, you think you'd find another sucker?
> HAH! In your dreams, pinkboy!)
>c) A couple of the DWCon committee, IIRC (though every cloud has a silver
> lining.. ouch, stoppit Paul, ouch, ouch..)
>
All good reasons, no ?
<fx: begins arming 50 Proton Cabbages with 20 MegaTonne Warheads, and
aims all at Warwick>
--
Lee Staniforth, Chairman
MancheXter '97 - The UK X-Files Convention
+--------------------------5 - 6 JULY 1997-------------------------------+
[ http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26/conv/xfconv.html ]
[ or send 'dir' in the body of an e-mail to: XFi...@roogna.demon.co.uk ]
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
R Shaw
>
> Granny plays by the rules, but not necessarily
> the same rules that other people know.
>
> True, characters should not be invincible. Then there is no dramatic
> tension at all. But Granny is not invincible. She can do far more than
> she chooses to do most of the time--in WA she repeatedly does things she
> has said aren't possible, but it's headology. "No one sticks their hand
> into fire and doesn't get burned"--but the "granny" that gets burned is
> the doll-granny
The rules are not arbitary. Those who overuse magic fall into the
Dungeon Dimensions or end up like Black Aliss. Remember what the mad
vizier thought in S about balance. There is a always a price to pay,
its Fate.
Granny is too strongwilled to stay buried, unless she wants to, so
as a Black Aliss figure, it would be insane cackling across the Ramtops
until the end.
You can be born to sourcery, achieve it, or have it thrust upon you.
Granny is very close to the third option, for practical purposes.
Granny can evade the rules and control magic without regard for
physical limits while retaining control, but narrative casuality says
she will be repeatedly challenged by elf queens, vampires etc, until
she dies or goes 'black'. Lancre is having interesting times.
She could challenge Fate directly, which would be spectacular
and foolhardy. She can retire, to UU or somewhere more private. But
her strength just makes her vulnerable to worse fates than death.
Ben Waggoner
: It's a Douglas Adams quote, not Piers Anthony. It should have been
: attributed though.
Y'all are right. It's Douglas Adams. From _The Dragons of Pern_, right?
Or was that by Ursula LeGuin?
Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his
conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then?"
Henry David Thoreau. "Civil Disobedience"
Planned Parenthood; 482 West MacArthur Blvd.; Oakland, CA 94609;
510-601-4700
Martin O'Nions
al...@lspace.org "Mr Alien X. Xenomorph" writes:
> It's all a bit academic really since Death is outside of time,
> and can read the future. And Granny is a witch, and can read the future.
> So they both knew the outcome before the game started. I think :-)
I know that there's a :-) in the foregoing, but I'm feeling argumentative :)
I always felt that Death's knowledge of the future was more akin to
the Books of History - it was a knowledge of what was supposed to
happen, but there were other possibilities (a theme not entirely
disimilar to that explored with the Wights in The Carpet People).
This was also covered in Mort and Soul Music, at least touched on
in Reaper Man and of course present in Small Gods.
As regards witches, the description I always prefer (and I can't
remember if I stole it from Terry or not) is that they see the future
as a join-the-dots picture - without the numbers. What picture they
actually get depends on whether they put the lines in the right places
(an ability which is partly innate, and partly developed with experience).
Hence, although both of them can in theory see the future, I don't think
that either one would stake their existance on events unfolding as they
expected without very careful consideration.
And if Wolfgang is reading this, he's probably wondering what happened
to my principled stand against those who try to interpret books in ways
the author never anticipated or intended...
--
Martin O'Nions [ENTP] Used your LART yet today? mar...@catch22.demon.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________
Making toast at the fireside / Nurse fell in the grate and died
And, what makes it ten times worse / All the toast was burnt with Nurse
(Harry Graham - Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes
Penelope Wythes
b...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Ben Waggoner) writes:
> Mr K D Branch (es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
> : On a lighter note, about the dolphins; man has always considered
> : themselves more intelligent than dolphins cos we invented stuff
> : and built stuff and killed each other in more sophisticated ways
> : wheras all dolphins do is hang around jumping though hoops, eating
> : fish and generally having a good time. It is said dolphins
> : consider themselves more intelligent for EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS.
> I hope no one's too attached to Warwick, because it's going to be buried
> in twelve feet of coleslaw in just a few minutes. That should teach this
> yobbo to drop extended, uncredited Piers Anthony quotes in afp.
Are you sure - I thought it was Douglas Adams?
Mike Knell
Mark Lowes <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Andy Fawcett <t...@afawcett.demon.co.uk> wrote.....
> <slap!> Enough of that or i'll show this to her Ladyship ;)
>
> >PS There is an in-joke here somewhere, but it's not restricted to the
> > committee, one or two people, or this planet for that matter ;-)
>
> I know of at least 6 ppl that will understand and if either of two of
> them publish the photos i'll send Tap round to talk to them >:)
Photos? What photos?
I'm working on accepting credit cards, by the way. Makes blackmail *so* much
simpler.. (Frames 2A/3A are worth a couple of hundred a shot, I guess...)
Mike
--
Mike Knell [ISTP] - m...@bofh.lspace.org - "No, really, it's fine leaving me.."
And when you get BLUE, and you've lost all your dreams..
there's nothing like a CAMPFIRE, and a CAN O'BEANS!
Andy Fawcett
Mark Lowes <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Andy Fawcett <t...@afawcett.demon.co.uk> wrote.....
> >Mark Lowes <ma...@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>Lee Staniforth <l...@roogna.demon.co.uk> wrote.....
> >> [Clowslaw bombing of Warwick]
> [...]
> >> >All good reasons, no ?
> >>
> >> At least give me a chance to evacuate one of the committee members :)
> >Oh Gods, he's got it *bad*, hasn't he?
>
> Sad isn't it
And I'm certain that Mr Matthews will be impressed ;-)
[...]
> >> Oh bugger <rushes off to Warwick>
> >
> ><waves> And I wonder how long the headache will last this time ;-)
>
> <slap!> Enough of that or i'll show this to her Ladyship ;)
She who shall not be named, since she only comes to those who do not
call?
> >PS There is an in-joke here somewhere, but it's not restricted to the
> > committee, one or two people, or this planet for that matter ;-)
>
> I know of at least 6 ppl that will understand and if either of two of
> them publish the photos i'll send Tap round to talk to them >:)
'ere, I object to that most strongly[1]
I had managed to get the number of people 'in the know' well into double
figures, although my counting is a bit suspect...
And rumour has it that a certain Mr Fawcett's pictures from Manchester
did come out, and are getting scanned this week, and will be placed in a
secure place[2].
TTFN
Andy
[1] But not as much as the others will :-(
[2] URL to follow ;-)
--
Andy Fawcett AFP Recipe Archive
"How do you tell the difference email recip...@lspace.org
between the 9 times & the other one?" with subject 'send index'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
You recoil from the crude; you tend naturally toward the exquisite.
Victoria Martin
On 12 Mar 1996, Simon Heath wrote:
> >. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
> >}considered to be intelligent.
> >
> >Can you really have never met a cat? Or a computer scientist?
> >
>
Depends what you mean by social. I have 3 cats and they're incredibly
nice to each other - thay have cluster-licks and three-way fights and
chasing games. they're horrible to little birds but they're sociable with
me and with each other.Just as sociable as most human beings, anyway (who
are also nasty to non-members of the species but don't mind licking each
other, so to speak).
Victoria
Cardinal
>
>Simon Heath said:
>}On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>}>dick...@access1.digex.net (Dick Eney) writes:
>}>
>}>>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>}>>social animals.
>}>
>}
>}Yes they do. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
>}considered to be intelligent.
>
>Can you really have never met a cat? Or a computer scientist?
>
>A.T.A.F.O.T. Mail Al...@Lspace.Org for newbie info.
> \\\\\\\__o ENTP, Purity=32.2, Aquarius
>_____\\\%\\\'/_____________________________________________
> <hornyholes>
>
Elephants and computer scientists in the same post. I could not
resist this (although I hope the ng only gets one copy; WinVN
sabotaged two earlier attempts).
HUNTING ELEPHANTS
MATHEMATICIANS hunt elephants by going to Africa, throwing out
everything that is not an elephant, and catching one of whatever
is left.
EXPERIENCED MATHEMATICIANS will attempt to prove the existence of at
least one unique elephant before proceding to step 1 as a subordinate
exercise.
PROFESSORS OF MATHEMATICS will prove the existence of at least one
unique elephant and then leave the detection and capture of an actual
elephant as an exercise for their graduate students.
COMPUTER SCIENTISTS hunt elephants through the following algorithm
*A:
*1. Goto Africa
*2. Start at Capetown
*3. Work north in orderly manner; traverse continent+alternate
east and west
*4. During each traverse pass,
*a. Catch each object seen
*b. Compare object with known elephant
*c. If object equals elephant, stop.
EXPERIENCED COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS modify above algorithm by placing a
known elephant in Cairo to ensure algorithm will terminate.
ASSEMBLER LANGUAGE PROGRAMMERS prefer to execute the algorith on their
hands and knees.
ENGINEERS go to Africa, catching grey animals at randomand stop when
any animal weighs within +/- 15% of any previously observed elephant.
ECONOMISTS don't hunt elephants, but believe that if elephants are
paid enough, they will hunt themselves.
STATICIANS hunt the first animal they see n times and call it an
elephant.
CONSULTANTS don't hunt elephants and many have never hunted anything
at all, but they can be hired by the hour to advise others on how to
hunt elephants.
OPERATIONS RESEARCH CONSULTANTS can also measure the correlation of
hat size and bullet colour to the efficiency of elephant hunting
strategies, if someone else will identify the elephants for them.
POLITICIANS don't hunt elephants, but they will share the elephants
you catch with some of the people who voted for them.
LAWYERS don't hunt elephants, but they follow the herds around
arguing about who owns the droppings.
INTELLECTUAL COPYRIGHT LAWYERS will claim that they own an entire
herd based on the "Look-and-Feel" of one dropping.
COMPANY DIRECTORS set broad policy on hunting elephants based on the
assumption that elephants are like mice, but with deeper voices.
QUALITY ASSURANCE INSPECTORS ignore the elephants and look for
mistakes the other hunters made while they were loading the jeep.
ALL COMPUTER SALES PEOPLE don't hunt elephants but spend their time
selling elephants that haven't been caught yet, for delivery two days
before the hunting season starts.
SOFTWARE SALES PEOPLE ship the first animal they catch and invoice
for an elephant.
HARDWARE SALES PEOPLE catch rabbits, paint the grey, and sell them
as desktop elephants.
Anyone got anything to afppend to the list?
Piers.
Simon Heath
>In article <slrn44k6i4...@trieste.stat.washington.edu>
> he...@stat.washington.edu "Simon Heath" writes:
>
>> On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> writes:
>> >
>> >>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>> >>social animals.
>> >
>> >These rarely go together.
>>
>> Yes they do. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
>> considered to be intelligent.
>
>
I don't know, the librarian mostly seem quite sociable...
OK, maybe I should weaken my statement to 'I can think of lots of intelligent
animals that are social'! The point I was trying to make was that sociality
is likely[1] to have be an important factor in the evolution of intelligence[2].
Simon
[1] i.e. I have no references and it's too far to walk over to the library[3].
[2] Yes, this is a completely unsubstantiated opinion dressed up as a fact.
[3] Where I could ask the librarian of course.
Simon Heath
>Simon Heath said:
>}On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>}>dick...@access1.digex.net (Dick Eney) writes:
>}>
>}>>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>}>>social animals.
>}>
>}>These rarely go together.
>}
>}Yes they do. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
>}considered to be intelligent.
>
>
OK, I admit to the cat being intelligent but as for your other example...
Stefan Belfroid
> You are right, Granny doesn't hold with reading the future. But
> then that falls under the whole singular and general thing, right?
> After all, not holding with reading the future couldn't possibly
> apply to her, now could it?
>
> .....jeff
> --
> rrrrrrumph!
She doesn't hold much with reading the future, unless with it she can
get some good, solid second-hand clothes (black).
--
Stefan Belfroid
Michael Ashton
>On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In <4hdm16$3...@access1.digex.net> dick...@access1.digex.net (Dick Eney) writes:
>>
>>>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>>>social animals.
>>
>>These rarely go together.
>Yes they do.
See.
--
mic...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk
"Oh, no, don't let me go because all I am, you hold in your hands"
"Hold me and I'll make it through the night; I'll be alright"
Michael Ashton
>In article <slrn44k6i4...@trieste.stat.washington.edu>
> he...@stat.washington.edu "Simon Heath" writes:
>> On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >In <4hdm16$3...@access1.digex.net> dick...@access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
>> writes:
>> >
>> >>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>> >>social animals.
>> >
>> >These rarely go together.
>>
>> Yes they do. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
>> considered to be intelligent.
>You don't have to look much further than the orangutan.
That depends where it's looking, Shirley ?
Eric Naevdal
>
>In article <slrn44k6i4...@trieste.stat.washington.edu>
> he...@stat.washington.edu "Simon Heath" writes:
>
>> On 9 Mar 1996 13:29:29 -0000, Michael Ashton <mi...@unixsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >In <4hdm16$3...@access1.digex.net> dick...@access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
>> writes:
>> >
>> >>Actually, it is considered that elephants are quite intelligent and
>> >>social animals.
>> >
>> >These rarely go together.
>>
>> Yes they do. Can't think off-hand of a non-social animal that's
>> considered to be intelligent.
>
>You don't have to look much further than the orangutan.
>
>
And humans the other way around. A social animal considered not very
intelligent. Clever. Yes. But not very intelligent.
Eric