[I]Things not to put in letters - part 2

[GaryN]

"Ferretin down significantly has patient handed in stool sample?"

In a letter folded in such a way that this showed through the window
with my address showing

That's my street cred out of the window and possibly down the toilet as
well!

The strange thing is that elsewhere in the letter it says I have given a
faecal sample but they've done nothing with it and "I don't know what
happened there." (the consultants exact words) So, embarrasing though
it is, I have provided them with a sample of my shit which they have
promptly and efficiently done nothing with except losing it.

Apparently I also have "some palmar erythema and a few spider naevi but
no clubbing and no flap". I play EVE Online and that sentence sounds
like a mission briefing from the game rather than a medical condition!

I want the Australian consultant back - the one who said "If you don't
stop drinking or cut down significantly you'll die before I do". At
least I understood what he was talking about!

Not to denigrate our home grown medics but the two most efficient, who
spoke in terms that were understandable, were respectively South African
(the guy who did his best to rebuild my leg)[1] and Australian.

I remain convinced that the main problem is that they don't really know
what the problem is so it gets dressed up in incomprehensible medicalese

"There is the possibility of a sampling error in the liver biopsy which
will be repeated and we are performing an upper endoscopy and taking a
duodenal biopsy"

Eh? Wot? First I've heard about this! if they're doing another liver
biopsy they can go in through the left hepatic vein this time so that I
have matching vampire scars! Given the ambiguity of the sentence I may
refuse them the option of repeating the biopsy sampling error !

Not content with having more of my blood than I do; now they're wanting
to take my liver to bits. I suppose that would cure liver disease but
it seems a bit drastic!

gary

[1]"I practically had to use a JCB to pull those bones back into line"




--
.Sig file abducted by aliens.
I was bored with changing it every week anyway but as a last gasp...

"And if California slides into the ocean,
like the mystics and statistics say it will,
I predict this motel will be standing,
until I pay my bill"

Warren Zevon, from "Desperados Under The Eaves"

[steveski]

GaryN wrote:

>
> "Ferretin down significantly

If you ferret down significantly enough you can find anything . . .

--
Steveski

[Lesley Weston]

Not if they give you another one instead. Is there any chance of that,
or can't you tell through all the medspeak obfuscation?

Lesley.

--
This address is real, but to reach me use leswes att shaw dott ca

[GaryN]

steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote in news:aajp8dFoppU1
@mid.individual.net:

> GaryN wrote:
>
>>
>> "Ferretin down significantly
>
> If you ferret down significantly enough you can find anything . . .
>

Where is Compo when you need him? Yes, I know Bill Owen has popped his
clogs - it was a rhetorical question.

Just sent the latest hospital reports off to the DSS - SWALK and gaffer
tape of the variety that Mr Wilkins is familiar with..:-)

Maybe that's why they won't give me any money - can't get into the
envelopes!

gary

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
news:k22cko$132m$1...@mud.stack.nl:

You get a new liver if it wasn't you that fucked up the one you were
issued with at birth. Fuck it, I've had fun and assorted people around
the world are alive because I helped (or so I hope). Good enough for
me.

I may only have made a small difference but at least I tried - too many
people don't.

The doctor seems to think I'm young, I regard 45 as being beyond
reproductive age and having a bum leg as being something that slows me
down in combat. I'm no use to the human race now in reproductive or
defensive categories so who gives a shit?

We live too long these days, bring in euthenasia.

gary

[Nigel Stapley]

GaryN wrote:
> "Ferretin down significantly has patient handed in stool sample?"
>
> In a letter folded in such a way that this showed through the window
> with my address showing
>
> That's my street cred out of the window and possibly down the toilet as
> well!
>
> The strange thing is that elsewhere in the letter it says I have given a
> faecal sample but they've done nothing with it and "I don't know what
> happened there." (the consultants exact words) So, embarrasing though
> it is, I have provided them with a sample of my shit which they have
> promptly and efficiently done nothing with except losing it.
>

Perhaps you should tell them to get your shit together?


--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>

[Kevin Wells]

In message <XnsA0C3A24B6BCFB...@216.196.109.145>

GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:

>
>We live too long these days, bring in euthenasia.
>

As long as I'm in charge who gets done.


--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
Live to ride Ride to live.

[Free Lunch]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 17:03:55 +0100, Kevin Wells <k...@kevsoft.co.uk>
wrote in alt.fan.pratchett:

>In message <XnsA0C3A24B6BCFB...@216.196.109.145>
> GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>We live too long these days, bring in euthenasia.
>>
>
>As long as I'm in charge who gets done.

I only ask to be in charge of myself if necessary, rather than let the
crazies who insist on keeping me alive at all costs without regard to my
well-being decide.

[GaryN]

Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in
news:49s948hhf07nf65mp...@4ax.com:

I just wish they'd make their bloody minds up. I shouldn't drink
alcohol because it screws my liver up but I should continue to drink at
a minimal 'caretaking' level because withdrawl fits can be fatal (In the
UK Librium, which suppresses the fits, cannot be prescribed unless you
are in medical care/under supervision)

Back to the wonderful world of severe depression where I was prescribed
Prozac. The side effects of said drug mirror the symptoms of depression
so you don't know if it's working and you are suffering the side
effects, or it isn't working and you are still depressed. Cue even
worse depression.

Meh, my cut-off has rally badges dating back to the 80s. I've done lots
of interesting things, sometimes without intending to, to enough of an
extent to suit me. "Illuc Ivi, Illud Feci, Tunicam Habes[1]". Didn't
want to get old anyway and if I pop me clogs tomorrow then so be it.

Don't really know why people fuss about it. We're currently waiting for
my uncle to die, he doesn't know who any of us are now but the stubborn
bugger won't stop breathing. Is hanging onto life like that really
worth it? Is it even life? I've seen mould that showed more activity.

If I ever get to that point the SO knows where my (untraceable) weapons
are, how to use them and what my wishes are.

gary

[1]That's as close as you can get to "Got the T-shirt" in Latin.

--
"Grandpa pissed his pants again
He don't give a damn"

Warren Zevon - "Play It All Night Long"

[larry]

A) the Biologic Time Bomb refers to the Other Gender.
B) You are younger than any of my step-kids or any of my sibs; they
would unanimously disagree with the thesis that life after 45 isn't
worth living.

[John S. Wilkins]

GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:

> steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote in news:aajp8dFoppU1
> @mid.individual.net:
>
> > GaryN wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "Ferretin down significantly
> >
> > If you ferret down significantly enough you can find anything . . .
> >
>
> Where is Compo when you need him? Yes, I know Bill Owen has popped his
> clogs - it was a rhetorical question.
>
> Just sent the latest hospital reports off to the DSS - SWALK and gaffer
> tape of the variety that Mr Wilkins is familiar with..:-)
>
> Maybe that's why they won't give me any money - can't get into the
> envelopes!
>

You should only use gaffer tape if
1. The contents need to be protected from random interlopers
2. You really hate the recipients
3. All of the above

--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[Lesley Weston]

On 09-03-12 7:57 AM, GaryN wrote:
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> news:k22cko$132m$1...@mud.stack.nl:
>
>> On 09-03-12 4:14 AM, GaryN wrote:

<snip>

>>> Not content with having more of my blood than I do; now they're
>>> wanting to take my liver to bits. I suppose that would cure liver
>>> disease but it seems a bit drastic!
>>
>> Not if they give you another one instead. Is there any chance of that,
>> or can't you tell through all the medspeak obfuscation?
>>
>> Lesley.
>>
>
> You get a new liver if it wasn't you that fucked up the one you were
> issued with at birth.

Seriously? I know the NHS has problems, but I didn't think it was that
bad, that they'll deny treatment on judgmental grounds.

> Fuck it, I've had fun and assorted people around
> the world are alive because I helped (or so I hope). Good enough for
> me.
>
> I may only have made a small difference but at least I tried - too many
> people don't.
>
> The doctor seems to think I'm young, I regard 45 as being beyond
> reproductive age and having a bum leg as being something that slows me
> down in combat. I'm no use to the human race now in reproductive or
> defensive categories so who gives a shit?

We do. Also the various friends and relations you mention from time to time.

>
> We live too long these days,

Speak for yourself.

> bring in euthenasia.

Voluntary euthanasia, yes of course.

[Lesley Weston]

The FDA has suddenly changed its policy on approving new drugs. Until
now, if a bunch of people living comfortable lives without illness
decided that a drug was too dangerous, it was not made available no
matter how loudly the people with the illness that the new drug will
treat made a fuss. Soon, the approval process will involve consulting
with sick people to find out what /they/ consider an acceptable
risk:benefit ratio is, before the FDA make their decision.

It's a good start but, as they acknowledge, they need to mandate and
enforce dug-labelling so clear that anybody can understand the risks and
benefits and each individual can make their own decision.

[Lesley Weston]

On 09-04-12 6:16 AM, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote in news:aajp8dFoppU1
>> @mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> GaryN wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Ferretin down significantly
>>>
>>> If you ferret down significantly enough you can find anything . . .
>>>
>>
>> Where is Compo when you need him? Yes, I know Bill Owen has popped his
>> clogs - it was a rhetorical question.
>>
>> Just sent the latest hospital reports off to the DSS - SWALK and gaffer
>> tape of the variety that Mr Wilkins is familiar with..:-)
>>
>> Maybe that's why they won't give me any money - can't get into the
>> envelopes!
>>
> You should only use gaffer tape if
> 1. The contents need to be protected from random interlopers
> 2. You really hate the recipients
> 3. All of the above
>

Otherwise you should use duct tape.

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in

news:k2566p$1e9v$2...@mud.stack.nl:

> On 09-04-12 6:16 AM, John S. Wilkins wrote:
>> GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> steveski <stev...@invalid.com> wrote in news:aajp8dFoppU1
>>> @mid.individual.net:
>>>
>>>> GaryN wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ferretin down significantly
>>>>
>>>> If you ferret down significantly enough you can find anything . . .
>>>>
>>>
>>> Where is Compo when you need him? Yes, I know Bill Owen has popped
>>> his clogs - it was a rhetorical question.
>>>
>>> Just sent the latest hospital reports off to the DSS - SWALK and
>>> gaffer tape of the variety that Mr Wilkins is familiar with..:-)
>>>
>>> Maybe that's why they won't give me any money - can't get into the
>>> envelopes!
>>>
>> You should only use gaffer tape if
>> 1. The contents need to be protected from random interlopers

UK and Oz customs in one particular case I'm familiar with..:-)

>> 2. You really hate the recipients

Nah. hey - you lost the knife required to open the package. Can't
blame that on me..:-)

>> 3. All of the above
>>
> Otherwise you should use duct tape.
>
> Lesley.
>

Nah, Duct tape is Leftpondian and therefore crap. They can't stand the
fact that us Rightpondians invented gaffer tape and used it to hold
together those new-fangled aeroplane things.

The Septics may have invented the aeroplane but the Brits and the
Germans and French made the bugger work properly thanks to porridge,
bratwurst and gaffer tape.

Anyone who says different is lying.

You think that isn't true? Name just one Yank designed and built
aircraft used in the Great War.

[GaryN]

larry <ssall...@gmail.com> wrote in news:Z7qdnTs8KdC-
bdjNnZ2dnU...@wightman.ca:

<snip>

> A) the Biologic Time Bomb refers to the Other Gender.

Thinking rather more of the 15 years following that it takes to train the
little gits into a rough approximation of civilized.

> B) You are younger than any of my step-kids or any of my sibs; they
> would unanimously disagree with the thesis that life after 45 isn't
> worth living.

Oh, it's worth living. I just won't be particularly fussed if it stops (as
long as I get to finish building the shed door first!)

[Alec Cawley]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09-03-12 7:57 AM, GaryN wrote:

>>
>> You get a new liver if it wasn't you that fucked up the one you were
>> issued with at birth.
>
> Seriously? I know the NHS has problems, but I didn't think it was that
> bad, that they'll deny treatment on judgmental grounds.
>

It is not so much judgement as value maximisation. The demand for
transplant livers vastly exceeds the supply. They wish to deploy the
limited number they have in the most effective possible way. They reckon
that someone who destroyed their own liver is likely to get less use from a
replacement than someone whose liver was destroyed by means outside their
control - all other things being equal. Of course, things are not equal,
and they would probably not deny a 40 year old alcoholic in favour of a 90
year old teetotaller. But the demand is so high that they can often find
several cases of roughly equal merit, in which the simplest deciding
function is not having knowingly destroyed your own liver.

[Lesley Weston]

It should be decided solely on need: Of the people compatible with the
available liver and within reach of where its original owner is or was,
who will live the shortest time without it? There's no justification for
using any criteria for arranging organ donation other than medical ones.

But a liver transplant isn't like a heart transplant; it doesn't need
someone to die first, so there should be a lot more available. A living
donor can give up part of their liver to someone they care about or to a
complete stranger, and before too long both parts in both people have
regenerated completely and are functioning normally. It's even better
than donating a kidney, since kidneys don't regenerate and the donor has
to manage with just one for the rest of their lives.

They're making excellent progress in growing new organs from the
patient's own stem cells on scaffolds that allow the organ to take the
proper shape and using culture medium that encourages the stem cells to
differentiate into the required tissues. It's early days yet but it's
definitely coming, and then nobody can pervert medical issues into
judgmental ones.

[Lesley Weston]

Oooh, I'm telling Red Green on you! Anyway it's not crap at all. Duct
tape is like The Force: It has a dark side and a light side, and it
holds the Universe together.

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:k27jv7$97s
$1...@mud.stack.nl:

That's gaffer tape, duct tape is a cheap Leftpondian rip-off. Like
electric light bulbs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan

Edison did *not* invent the electric light bulb and any Septics who think
he did can go take a running jump. Bloody Yanks have better Posh Geese[1]
but no actual inventiveness.

gary

[1]Work it out fer yerself.

[Alec Cawley]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09-04-12 11:11 AM, Alec Cawley wrote:
>> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09-03-12 7:57 AM, GaryN wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> You get a new liver if it wasn't you that fucked up the one you were
>>>> issued with at birth.
>>>
>>> Seriously? I know the NHS has problems, but I didn't think it was that
>>> bad, that they'll deny treatment on judgmental grounds.
>>>
>>
>> It is not so much judgement as value maximisation. The demand for
>> transplant livers vastly exceeds the supply. They wish to deploy the
>> limited number they have in the most effective possible way. They reckon
>> that someone who destroyed their own liver is likely to get less use from a
>> replacement than someone whose liver was destroyed by means outside their
>> control - all other things being equal. Of course, things are not equal,
>> and they would probably not deny a 40 year old alcoholic in favour of a 90
>> year old teetotaller. But the demand is so high that they can often find
>> several cases of roughly equal merit, in which the simplest deciding
>> function is not having knowingly destroyed your own liver.
>>
> It should be decided solely on need: Of the people compatible with the
> available liver and within reach of where its original owner is or was,
> who will live the shortest time without it? There's no justification for
> using any criteria for arranging organ donation other than medical ones.

They are using "live longest with it" not "live shortest without it". Which
I think is right. Better to extend a life from six months to thirty years
than from one month to six.

>
> But a liver transplant isn't like a heart transplant; it doesn't need
> someone to die first, so there should be a lot more available. A living
> donor can give up part of their liver to someone they care about or to a
> complete stranger, and before too long both parts in both people have
> regenerated completely and are functioning normally. It's even better
> than donating a kidney, since kidneys don't regenerate and the donor has
> to manage with just one for the rest of their lives.

Nevertheless, the demand vastly exceeds supply, by the reports I have seen.

>
> They're making excellent progress in growing new organs from the
> patient's own stem cells on scaffolds that allow the organ to take the
> proper shape and using culture medium that encourages the stem cells to
> differentiate into the required tissues. It's early days yet but it's
> definitely coming, and then nobody can pervert medical issues into judgmental ones.
>

When the situation changes, no doubt their criteria will change. But at the
moment I believe they have between four and ten recipients waiting for each
donated liver. In such circumstances it seems to me reasonable to make a
judgement as to who will make the best use of a scarce resource and route
it appropriately.

[GaryN]

Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in
news:294979673368559129.231...@news.individual.net:

A policy which I fully agree with. I broke the item so I have to live
with the consequences. Some poor sod who has a congenital liver problem
through no fault of their own has a better claim for a new one than I
have.

That's the way I look at it anyway, and I'm in a position to posit an
informed opinion from a practical PoV. Anyone elses opinion regarding
my condition is irrelevant. I'm the one who is not well and it's my own
fault.

gary

[Chris Zakes]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 09:35:47 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:

(snip)

>That's gaffer tape, duct tape is a cheap Leftpondian rip-off. Like
>electric light bulbs
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan
>
>Edison did *not* invent the electric light bulb and any Septics who think
>he did can go take a running jump.

Except for the minor detail that in the very article you linked, it
says in its first sentence that Edison *did* invent his lightbulb
independantly of Swan.

"Sir Joseph Wilson Swan (31 October 1828 � 27 May 1914) was a British
physicist and chemist born in Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland, in 1828 and
is most famous for the invention of the incandescent light bulb before
its independent invention by the American Thomas Edison."

-Chris Zakes
Texas
--

Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.

-Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"

[Bernard Peek]

On 05/09/12 20:05, GaryN wrote:
>> When the situation changes, no doubt their criteria will change. But
>> >at the moment I believe they have between four and ten recipients
>> >waiting for each donated liver. In such circumstances it seems to me
>> >reasonable to make a judgement as to who will make the best use of a
>> >scarce resource and route it appropriately.
>> >
> A policy which I fully agree with. I broke the item so I have to live
> with the consequences. Some poor sod who has a congenital liver problem
> through no fault of their own has a better claim for a new one than I
> have.

As I understand it, if someone with alcoholic cirrhosis dries out they
go back on the transplant list. There has never been a blanket ban on
alcoholics getting a transplant. In any case a donor liver is not
suitable for any recipient, there needs to be compatibility. It's always
possible that the only candidate for a particular liver is one who has
alcoholic cirrhosis.


--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

[daniel goldsmith]

On 2012-09-05, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 09:35:47 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>
> (snip)
>
>>That's gaffer tape, duct tape is a cheap Leftpondian rip-off. Like
>>electric light bulbs
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan
>>
>>Edison did *not* invent the electric light bulb and any Septics who think
>>he did can go take a running jump.
>
> Except for the minor detail that in the very article you linked, it
> says in its first sentence that Edison *did* invent his lightbulb
> independantly of Swan.
>
> "Sir Joseph Wilson Swan (31 October 1828 – 27 May 1914) was a British
> physicist and chemist born in Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland, in 1828 and
> is most famous for the invention of the incandescent light bulb before
> its independent invention by the American Thomas Edison."

That's wikipedia for you. Fact is, Edison did not invent the lightbulb,
he simply worked out how to *sell* the lightbulb. The many improvements
to Swan's lightbulb were performed by Edison's army of engineers.

Of course, I don't think that Swan really invented it either. Like
Edison's engineers, he simply built upon the foundation stones laid
down over the preceeding 70-odd years. Humphry Davy, James Bowman
Lindsay, Warren de la Rue, Frederick de Moylens....

--
Protected by their camouflage, the New International Militant Hedgehogs
__o __o __o __o (NIMH) Approach their Target
'/ '/ '/ '/ _____________________________________________________
*Daniel Goldsmith. Reply-to/Homepage in Headers*

[GaryN]

Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote in news:5047c702$0$10734$5b6aafb4
@news.zen.co.uk:

Not sure about that but, as I've discovered, the whole drying out business
isn't quite as simple as one may think. I voluntarily and insistently
demanded to be admitted for detox, went through it and stayed dry for a
month afterwards. Then I woke up in hospital again following a major
withdrawl fit.

The situation seems to be that without librium to supress the fits, which
can't be prescribed except under medical supervision, I require a
consistent level of alcohol. Which is

a) Expensive.
b) No fun.
c) Wrecking what's left of my liver.

Maintenance drinking purely to avoid something worse happening is not in
any way, shape or form pleasurable or sociable. But I suppose it's better
than running the risk of having a major fit whilst crossing the road and
falling under a bus.

gary

--

"We're Australian Supercops, they call us Fair and Just.

We've learned some pretty useful stuff since we've been on the force
But the hardest thing we've found

Is how to walk without our fucking knuckles dragging on the ground"

Kevin 'Bloody' Wilson.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:41:09 PM UTC+1, Chris Zakes wrote:
> Except for the minor detail that in the very article you linked,
> it says in its first sentence that Edison *did* invent his lightbulb
> independantly of Swan.

And of course anyone can edit Wikipedia.

More convincing, I feel, is Microsoft Encarta from a while back,
whose British edition said that Swan did it, while the U.S. edition
credited Edison.

More on that:

<http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-22928340.html>
A column by Bill Gates in 1997 that used to be on Microsoft's web site.
Is there a way to get the main part of it back other than by signing up
to the service offered on this link? I assume that its copyright is
guarded ferociously, or I wouldn't be asking.

<http://www.howtoknow.com/contragates.html>

<http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2009/04/encarta-rip/>

<http://blog.shankbone.org/2009/11/02/andrew-dalby-wikipedia-and-the-worl/>

[Lesley Weston]

Same thing. Thirty years is always longer than six months, whoever is
experiencing them.

>
>>
>> But a liver transplant isn't like a heart transplant; it doesn't need
>> someone to die first, so there should be a lot more available. A living
>> donor can give up part of their liver to someone they care about or to a
>> complete stranger, and before too long both parts in both people have
>> regenerated completely and are functioning normally. It's even better
>> than donating a kidney, since kidneys don't regenerate and the donor has
>> to manage with just one for the rest of their lives.
>
> Nevertheless, the demand vastly exceeds supply, by the reports I have seen.

I guess I wouldn't be too keen to go through painful surgery solely to
benefit a stranger either, though some do. But if someone close to me
needed part of a liver and was the right tissue type, I don't think I'd
hesitate. I also don't think I'm unique in this, so perhaps it's the
regulations that need fixing, not the potential donors.

>>
>> They're making excellent progress in growing new organs from the
>> patient's own stem cells on scaffolds that allow the organ to take the
>> proper shape and using culture medium that encourages the stem cells to
>> differentiate into the required tissues. It's early days yet but it's
>> definitely coming, and then nobody can pervert medical issues into judgmental ones.
>>
> When the situation changes, no doubt their criteria will change. But at the
> moment I believe they have between four and ten recipients waiting for each
> donated liver. In such circumstances it seems to me reasonable to make a
> judgement as to who will make the best use of a scarce resource and route
> it appropriately.
>

In terms of who has the greatest medical need, certainly. Not through
some kind of "ethical" considerations though. I once saw a documentary
about the people in some hospital district who met once a week to decide
who should get the next available kidney and who should be left to die.
Their mandate was to choose according to who "deserved" it more. These
were all good, thoughtful people with the best of intentions, all of
them so stressed out by having to make such decisions that they were
halfway round the twist.

[Lesley Weston]

Obviously you have the option of refusing a new liver if it's offered.
Not everyone in your position would agree with you though.

Anyway, let's hope it doesn't come to that. Now that you've stopped
drinking and with the haemachromatosis [1] diagnosed, maybe common sense
and good medical care will be enough.

[1] My spillchucker wants that to be "aromatherapists".

[Lesley Weston]

Why can't they prescribe Librium? Or Valium or one of the other equivalents?

[Lesley Weston]

No Swan Vestas though.

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in

news:k2afse$2693$3...@mud.stack.nl:

<grin> It's possible that I might have some wax dipped Swan Vestas in
the tobacco tin in my emergency belt pouch (bet Chris doesn't know what
they are). Along with the Paracetemol, Ibuprofen, Co-Codamol, leather
needles, scalpel blades and waxed thread.

If you have an open wound I can administer drugs (carefully) to knock
you out while I sew you up and my medical training is probably
sufficient to get you to hospital where they can butcher you properly. I
used to be a boy scout and they taught us proper after WW2.

Given the other options you're probably best of with me nailing your
bits together. At least i know what I'm doing.

gary

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:k2afja
$2693$1...@mud.stack.nl:

> Obviously you have the option of refusing a new liver if it's offered.
> Not everyone in your position would agree with you though.

I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks. My screw up, my
responsibility and, mostly, my decision.

I haven't spent the last 20 years raising money for charities looking
after people who didn't get a choice so that I can complain about
fucking up my own health.

The aspect that annoys me is that I may not be able to continue the
charity stuff.

Big deal - I'm dying. I'm just doing it a bit quicker than most of you.

I'm not quite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYb2Mk4lOV4

but I'd like to think close.

gatry

[GaryN]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in
news:slrnk4htck....@mbp55.local:

> In message <XnsA0C5CC637694B...@216.196.109.145>

> GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote:
>> Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in

>> news:294979673368559129.231708alec-
spamspa...@news.individual.net:

> But yours broke because of a congenital problem, so to my mind you
> should be top of the heap.

Meh. The genetic shit is there but it's had a lot of expensive
assistance.. ;-(

I'll probably live to be 100 on account of refusing to die. Awkward
sods like me tend to outlast nice people.

>>Anyone elses opinion regarding my condition is irrelevant.
>

> Unless it's the person deciding on the liver transplant?.

Nah, I'M THE BASTARD WHO MAKES THE DECISIONS AND MAKES EVERYONE ELSES
LIFE HELL. Usually by being nice and polite to them when they know that
they are in the wrong.

If there is a nastier way than "Killing with kindness" I have yet to
find it. Currently having fun with the DSS and ATOS on that front, my
solicitors are locked and loaded. I may be dying but my partner and my
niece can profit.

I'll take the cat option. When it's time I'll wander off into the
woods, find a comfortable hidden spot, fall asleep and not wake up.

[Alec Cawley]

No, it is not the same thing. It is a very different thing. By your
criterion "shortest time without it", one month without it is less than six
months without it, so you would make the opposite decision. I was tactfully
trying to point out that you were wrong, but you would not take a subtle
hint.

>>
>>>
>>> But a liver transplant isn't like a heart transplant; it doesn't need
>>> someone to die first, so there should be a lot more available. A living
>>> donor can give up part of their liver to someone they care about or to a
>>> complete stranger, and before too long both parts in both people have
>>> regenerated completely and are functioning normally. It's even better
>>> than donating a kidney, since kidneys don't regenerate and the donor has
>>> to manage with just one for the rest of their lives.
>>
>> Nevertheless, the demand vastly exceeds supply, by the reports I have seen.
>
> I guess I wouldn't be too keen to go through painful surgery solely to
> benefit a stranger either, though some do. But if someone close to me
> needed part of a liver and was the right tissue type, I don't think I'd
> hesitate. I also don't think I'm unique in this, so perhaps it's the
> regulations that need fixing, not the potential donors.

I an describing the situation as it currently is. Whatever the source, the
current situation is that demand vastly exceeds supply. I think the
treatments you describe, of partial liver transplants, are bleeding edge
(literally) research which has not yet reached mainstream practice. Yes, in
future, there may be less of a shortage because of techniques you describe.
But it typically takes ten or more years for such advanced techniques to
reach mainstream practice. Until then, airy fairy descriptions of what
maybe true in future are of no use to today's medical practitioners.

>>> They're making excellent progress in growing new organs from the
>>> patient's own stem cells on scaffolds that allow the organ to take the
>>> proper shape and using culture medium that encourages the stem cells to
>>> differentiate into the required tissues. It's early days yet but it's
>>> definitely coming, and then nobody can pervert medical issues into judgmental ones.
>>>
>> When the situation changes, no doubt their criteria will change. But at the
>> moment I believe they have between four and ten recipients waiting for each
>> donated liver. In such circumstances it seems to me reasonable to make a
>> judgement as to who will make the best use of a scarce resource and route
>> it appropriately.
>>
> In terms of who has the greatest medical need, certainly. Not through
> some kind of "ethical" considerations though. I once saw a documentary
> about the people in some hospital district who met once a week to decide
> who should get the next available kidney and who should be left to die.
> Their mandate was to choose according to who "deserved" it more. These
> were all good, thoughtful people with the best of intentions, all of them
> so stressed out by having to make such decisions that they were halfway round the twist.
>

And no-one other than you has accused them of 'some kind of "ethical"
considerations'. Neither Gary nor I ever suggested that. You made that up
by jumping to a false conclusion, along with a snide, untrue, and malicious
dig at imagined NHS practice. And now you are filling it out with
allegations based on some documentary about somewhere else, which may or
may not be in Britain, about kidneys, which are not livers.

Lesley, I have been tactfully trying to suggest that you jumped to a false
conclusion and should withdraw from it. But you obviously do not do subtle.
So I will shout. PLEASE STOP ATTACKING THE NHS FOR YOUR OWN MADE UP
ALLEGATIONS. The case has always been: a previous history of alcohol abuse
is a contraindication for future outcomes following a liver transplant;
therefore, those showing such a history are marked down compared to those
without such contraindications. This is administered in the most clear
headed way, with strict attention to medical outcomes. Since liver
transplants are relatively cheap (when a liver is available), NHS penny
pinching is not a problem.

You have made up a nasty, malicious, straw man, and are now attacking it.
Gary, the person most interested in the case, has made it clear that he
perfectly understands the logic. You, apparently, do not.

[GaryN]

Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in

news:1528395590368660816.85...@news.individual.net:

I have to agree here. My condition is partially genetic but a large part
of it is entirely my own fault. Given that there is a genetic problem a
new liver may not be the answer for me and there is probably some poor sod
who won't continue killing themself if so fitted. Thus IMO, which is the
only one that matters here, more deserving.

Back in my misspent youth I acted with Woodchurch Youth Theatre in a
production of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whose_Life_Is_It_Anyway%3F_%28play%29

and remain of the absolute conviction that it should be an inalienable
right for anyone to decide their own fate when faced with such a position.

I think that Tim, who played Ken Harrison, would have settled for
euthenasia after 3 performances confined to a hospital bed for 2 hours a
night and not allowed to even scratch his nose.

I was, naturally, cast as the lawyer trying to prevent it.

I always get cast as a "Not quite nice but not exactly nasty" character.
Strappi in Monstrous Regiment, Mr Wilkinson (I got a bacon sandwich each
night out of that one - thankyou to the landlord of the Broadface) and
Little Jim 'Leadpipe' Upwright in Going Postal.

Given that nobody has suggested a transplant or made excuses for not doing
one I would venture the suggestion that it's largely irrelevant.

My attitude is

"Celebrate we will for life is short but sweet for certain."

I leave the reader to find whither the providence of the quote.

I've had fun, got no plans for getting old apart from outliving my sister
just to annoy her, not going to worry about it.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 10:34:44 AM UTC+1, GaryN wrote:
> "Celebrate we will for life is short but sweet for certain."
>
> I leave the reader to find whither the providence of the quote.

"Celebration" by Madonna, and that's "provenance".

Although at least one of those things is a deliberate lie by me.

It's Yoda-ish except that I think he'd put "is" at the end, and,
of course "When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good,
you will not." So. Not necessarily short either... Well, he /was/
short. Or, as he got older he got shorter, as you do...

Hey, if Hutts are immune to those Jedi tricks, does that include
the levitation? 'Cause we saw the little guy can toss an X-Wing
around.

I kind of want to see a Star Wars where Luke Skywalker doesn't
appear and Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda do everything. I have a sense
it would be a lot quicker.

[GaryN]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in news:c03ee5db-a832-45bb-
b2ce-248...@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, September 7, 2012 10:34:44 AM UTC+1, GaryN wrote:
>> "Celebrate we will for life is short but sweet for certain."
>>
>> I leave the reader to find whither the providence of the quote.
>
> "Celebration" by Madonna, and that's "provenance".

I just knew someone would pick up on it.

> Although at least one of those things is a deliberate lie by me.

But it was deliberate baiting by me so fair goes.

<snip>

[Lesley Weston]

Alec, you are not a computer. You really should be able to parse. Though
I once said that Art was not a computer and he said "But I am!". An
early job he held bore the title of Computer.

>>>
>>>>
>>>> But a liver transplant isn't like a heart transplant; it doesn't need
>>>> someone to die first, so there should be a lot more available. A living
>>>> donor can give up part of their liver to someone they care about or to a
>>>> complete stranger, and before too long both parts in both people have
>>>> regenerated completely and are functioning normally. It's even better
>>>> than donating a kidney, since kidneys don't regenerate and the donor has
>>>> to manage with just one for the rest of their lives.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, the demand vastly exceeds supply, by the reports I have seen.
>>
>> I guess I wouldn't be too keen to go through painful surgery solely to
>> benefit a stranger either, though some do. But if someone close to me
>> needed part of a liver and was the right tissue type, I don't think I'd
>> hesitate. I also don't think I'm unique in this, so perhaps it's the
>> regulations that need fixing, not the potential donors.
>
> I an describing the situation as it currently is. Whatever the source, the
> current situation is that demand vastly exceeds supply. I think the
> treatments you describe, of partial liver transplants, are bleeding edge
> (literally) research which has not yet reached mainstream practice. Yes, in
> future, there may be less of a shortage because of techniques you describe.
> But it typically takes ten or more years for such advanced techniques to
> reach mainstream practice. Until then, airy fairy descriptions of what
> maybe true in future are of no use to today's medical practitioners.

No, they're routine.

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/suppl_8/viii13.full

http://livermd.org/guide.html

etc.

As to the rest of your post, I think you might be misunderstanding the
discussion so far. Certainly what you write about it is nonsense.

[Lesley Weston]

On 09-07-12 2:34 AM, GaryN wrote:
> Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in
> news:1528395590368660816.85...@news.individual.net:

<snip>

>> You have made up a nasty, malicious, straw man, and are now attacking
>> it. Gary, the person most interested in the case, has made it clear
>> that he perfectly understands the logic. You, apparently, do not.
>
> I have to agree here. My condition is partially genetic but a large part
> of it is entirely my own fault. Given that there is a genetic problem a
> new liver may not be the answer for me and there is probably some poor sod
> who won't continue killing themself if so fitted. Thus IMO, which is the
> only one that matters here, more deserving.

If you really are of the opinion that you don't deserve a new liver and
will refuse one if it's offered (if you need one, which everybody hopes
you don't), then that is your choice of course. Other people in your
situation might not make the same choice.

>
> Back in my misspent youth I acted with Woodchurch Youth Theatre in a
> production of
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whose_Life_Is_It_Anyway%3F_%28play%29
>
> and remain of the absolute conviction that it should be an inalienable
> right for anyone to decide their own fate when faced with such a position.

Absolutely! Though if someone decides that their own fate is to have a
donated partial liver, circumstances will still make the actual decision
for them, whatever country they live in. The shortage of donated organs
is not peculiar to the area covered by the NHS.

[Chris Zakes]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser

caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:

(snip)

><grin> It's possible that I might have some wax dipped Swan Vestas in
>the tobacco tin in my emergency belt pouch (bet Chris doesn't know what
>they are).

Vestas or belt pouches?

Vestas, I believe, are a brand of match. Wax-dipped implies they're
waterproof, for use when camping or in bad weather. (I *have* read the
Sherlock Holmes stories, after all.)

Belt pouches--I have several, both store-bought and homemade.

[GaryN]

Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:p03l4819it7vvto9l...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>
> (snip)
>
>><grin> It's possible that I might have some wax dipped Swan Vestas in
>>the tobacco tin in my emergency belt pouch (bet Chris doesn't know
>>what they are).
>
> Vestas or belt pouches?
>
> Vestas, I believe, are a brand of match. Wax-dipped implies they're
> waterproof, for use when camping or in bad weather. (I *have* read the
> Sherlock Holmes stories, after all.)
>
> Belt pouches--I have several, both store-bought and homemade.
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas

Swan Vestas are an English 'strike anywhere' non-safety match (I think
the Leftpondian equivalent is "Lucky Strike"); and wax dipping does,
indeed, make them waterproof. Although I prefer my Zippo if it's not
out of fuel.

My belt pouches are sewn by my own not-so-fair hand. Leather with
oilskin or Goretex lining. Multitool, phone, emergency first aid kit
(with the damp susceptible items in a tobacco tin).

I tend to carry the minimum functional because loading yourself down
with crap you may never need is pointless and stupid.

[Lesley Weston]

On 09-07-12 5:13 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>
> (snip)
>
>> <grin> It's possible that I might have some wax dipped Swan Vestas in
>> the tobacco tin in my emergency belt pouch (bet Chris doesn't know what
>> they are).
>
> Vestas or belt pouches?
>
> Vestas, I believe, are a brand of match. Wax-dipped implies they're
> waterproof, for use when camping or in bad weather. (I *have* read the
> Sherlock Holmes stories, after all.)

*Swan* Vestas. The heads are pink and you strike them on a little piece
of sandpaper glued to the side of the box.

http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/CS020%20Swan%20Vesta.htm

Absolutely the thing to light pipes, cigarettes and joints with, as well
as being useful in the kitchen and when camping. On this continent,
people have to use regular matches.

There's a bit on that page about how the swan changed direction in the
50s and now swims to the right, nobody knows why. Obviously it's because
it happened during the thirteen years of Tory misrule, and that's why.

>
> Belt pouches--I have several, both store-bought and homemade.
>

I've just bought a new one for $10, in soft leather. I don't normally
use them, but this stretch of fine weather means that I'm wearing skirts
and no coat, so I don't have pockets. I don't want to haul my usual
handbag (purse) around on walks, since it contains everything I own
including a Kobo, and weighs a ton.

[daniel goldsmith]

On 2012-09-08, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09-07-12 5:13 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
>> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>
> *Swan* Vestas. The heads are pink and you strike them on a little piece
> of sandpaper glued to the side of the box.
>
> http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/CS020%20Swan%20Vesta.htm
>
> Absolutely the thing to light pipes, cigarettes and joints with,

Oh, no, I have to disagree, especially about the joint and the pipe.
Swan Vestas have a seriously sulphuric character to the flame all
the way down the match. That's fine when you're sparking off a cig
as you usually barely touch the flame to the thing to get it going.
With a pipe or a cigar, you are drawing on it while the head is in
the flame, this can mean that you get the sulphuric tinge to the
entire smoke, which simply ruins a decent bowl. Joints are kinda
in between - but usually you don't waste the first puff like you
do with a ciggie. I prefer to use cedar spills for cigars and pipe
lighting -- got used to them when smoking cigars and I find them
ideal for packing the pipe too.

Entirely IME, btw, ymmv.

[GaryN]

daniel goldsmith <dg...@ascraeus.bongley.net.invalid> wrote in
news:slrnk4pg7p...@ascraeus.bongley.net:

> On 2012-09-08, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> On 09-07-12 5:13 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
>>> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>>
>> *Swan* Vestas. The heads are pink and you strike them on a little
>> piece of sandpaper glued to the side of the box.
>>
>> http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/CS020%20Swan%20Vesta.htm
>>
>> Absolutely the thing to light pipes, cigarettes and joints with,
>
> Oh, no, I have to disagree, especially about the joint and the pipe.
> Swan Vestas have a seriously sulphuric character to the flame all
> the way down the match. That's fine when you're sparking off a cig
> as you usually barely touch the flame to the thing to get it going.
> With a pipe or a cigar, you are drawing on it while the head is in
> the flame, this can mean that you get the sulphuric tinge to the
> entire smoke, which simply ruins a decent bowl. Joints are kinda
> in between - but usually you don't waste the first puff like you
> do with a ciggie. I prefer to use cedar spills for cigars and pipe
> lighting -- got used to them when smoking cigars and I find them
> ideal for packing the pipe too.
>
> Entirely IME, btw, ymmv.
>
>

Meh. Swan Vestas will strike on almost anything although, against
Hollywood pretence, probably not the stubble on your chin. <grin> and
there is also a strip of sandpaper in the emergency kit and another sewn
into my belt, couple of wax soaked SVs in a little waterproof pouch
included.

I was a boy scout and my parents didn't raise stupid children. Arrogant,
efficient, survivalists but not stupid.

If I need to get a fire started I'm not overly fussed what they taste
like and whilst I'm not averse to a joint or pipe that's not what the
emergency kit is for.

Contains enough heavy duty painkillers to knock out half the street
anyway.

[Lesley Weston]

On 09-09-12 9:16 AM, daniel goldsmith wrote:
> On 2012-09-08, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09-07-12 5:13 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:37:23 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
>>> caused GaryN <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> to write:
>>
>> *Swan* Vestas. The heads are pink and you strike them on a little piece
>> of sandpaper glued to the side of the box.
>>
>> http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/CS020%20Swan%20Vesta.htm
>>
>> Absolutely the thing to light pipes, cigarettes and joints with,
>
> Oh, no, I have to disagree, especially about the joint and the pipe.
> Swan Vestas have a seriously sulphuric character to the flame all
> the way down the match. That's fine when you're sparking off a cig
> as you usually barely touch the flame to the thing to get it going.
> With a pipe or a cigar, you are drawing on it while the head is in
> the flame, this can mean that you get the sulphuric tinge to the
> entire smoke, which simply ruins a decent bowl. Joints are kinda
> in between - but usually you don't waste the first puff like you
> do with a ciggie. I prefer to use cedar spills for cigars and pipe
> lighting -- got used to them when smoking cigars and I find them
> ideal for packing the pipe too.
>
> Entirely IME, btw, ymmv.
>
>

It's more of a cultural thingie. The Right People use Swan Vestas, and
presumably just grin and bear the sulphur. According to this thinking,
people who use Swan Vestas are one's own sort, and you can trust a man
who uses them to light his pipe even better than you can trust a man who
smokes a pipe in the first place.