[I] Early 20th Century SF & Fantasy
Anastasia
chance to give it back.
I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
So...what should I put on the reading list?
--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students,
SadoMangoist, AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to
A. Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Pudde Fjord
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
You might take a look at Nebula and other award winners (can't remember
which awards was created later on ATM)
Then it would be a matter of how esoteric you would want to be, I guess
you would have to stick to at least some well-known works so that your
cencors would know what you're talking about. How many books should be
in your list?
H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and Heinlein are
also "safe" authors.
Pudde.
den...@gmail.com
Pudde Fjord wrote:
> Anastasia wrote:
>
> > I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> > Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> > or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
> >
> > But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> > do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> >
> also "safe" authors.
Lord Dunsany, Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft, mayhaps. (Well, not
mayhaps. Definitly.)
steeljam
Nigel Stapley
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
Olaf Stapledon, esp. "Last And First Men" and "Sirius".
If you do venture into the second half, Edmund Cooper's "Kronk" (aka
"Son Of Kronk") should be in the running.
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
Torak
Are you doing just written, or notable other things as well? Orson
Welles' (S&W: "Welles's" - urgh) adaptation of War Of The Worlds, for
instance.
Rgemini
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
Rgemini
Mike Stevens
> Anastasia wrote:
>
>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole
>> century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I
>> welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish)
>> to1950(ish). I'd
>> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> are also "safe" authors.
But be careful of dates. The best of HG Wells dates from before 1900.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.
Richard Bos
Leiber, of course.
Wyndham started writing just in the second half of the century, but if
you can work him in, he's very good.
On the serious side, there are Brave New World and, just making the
first half, 1984.
Richard
The Stainless Steel Cat
"Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
>chance to give it back.
>
>I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
>or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
>But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
>do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
>So...what should I put on the reading list?
Have a look at Asimov's anthology of 20's-30's SF short stories "Before The
Golden Age". It does what it says on the tin: a good selection of pre-40's
SF including Simak, Leinster, Campbell etc. There's some good background
stuff in between the stories too.
Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
"I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat."
Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity
Julian Hall
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
Anne McCaffrey? Terry Brooks? Both late 20C though.
Anne is definitely late 20C, The Skies of Pern was 2001 which makes it 21C
- although you may stretch a point and go back to the first of the series
in 1967 - but she has a cracking pedigree of awards. That plus she created
the world of Pern by combining several disparate elements in a highly
successful saga.
Everyone else has mentioned the scifi authors I would have :)
Ooh ooh ooh... apart from John Wyndham :)
--
Kind regards,
Julian Hall
"I'm only on the planet because I missed the bus home"
Richard Adams
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
Specific recommendations: Robt. A. Heinlein's A Stranger In A Strange
Land, Starship Troopers and possibly Tunnel In The Sky. Each of which
explore religion or politics, using SF as the vehicle.
SiaSL had a considerable impact when it was published, ripples of which
can still be observed today.
ST addresses who should have the right to be allowed into politics,
making decisions as grave as entering into wars. Very topical today.
TitS (go ahead, giggle) I found to be one of my favourite, far preceding
the "Survivor" craze, with a group of students stranded on a strange
world after what should have been a short survival exercise. They find
to get along they need government and laws.
tamara
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
Hmm..
If you're willing to go that late, then two post WWII books written
towards the end of the 50's should be on your list - On The Beach, and
the less famous A Canticle For Leibowitz.
Dealing with the world post the apocalyptic atomic war in different
ways, both are very interesting to read, and reflect a lot of the
worries people had after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan (so
still in your time frame, I think).
Another author who started writing only in 1950, but I think would also
be a good addition is Philip K. Dick. He's written too many good books
to recommend any specific one, but if I go on with the post WWII theme
then The Man In The High Castle is the one I would pick.
--
"From now on, I'll describe the cities to you," the Khan had said, "in
your journeys you will see if they exist."
Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities
Hazel
Mike Stevens wrote:
> Pudde Fjord wrote:
> > Anastasia wrote:
> >
> >> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> >> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole
> >> century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I
> >> welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish)
> >> to1950(ish). I'd
> >> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> > H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and Heinlein
> > are also "safe" authors.
>
> But be careful of dates. The best of HG Wells dates from before 1900.
>
>
Darn, was going to suggest Ray Bradbury, but most of his are post 1950.
Hazel
Anastasia
> Anastasia wrote:
>
>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
>> SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American.
>> Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense.
>> I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American,
>> 1900(ish) to1950(ish).
>> I'd love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>>
> You might take a look at Nebula and other award winners (can't
> remember which awards was created later on ATM)
Mmmyeah. I figured award winners.
> Then it would be a matter of how esoteric you would want to be, I
> guess you would have to stick to at least some well-known works so
> that your cencors would know what you're talking about. How many
> books should be in your list?
I think it's up to me. The process is flexible, but a list of sic will
probably get me Looked At.
> H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and
> Heinlein are also "safe" authors.
Also all male, but thanks for the start. Heinlein is an interesting one who
fits cleanly into neither early nor late, but I think should be included
because of the span of his career.
Anastasia
> den...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>
>>> Anastasia wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
>>>> SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British &
>>>> American. Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the
>>>> most sense. I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British &
>>>> American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish).
>>>> I'd love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> Are you doing just written, or notable other things as well? Orson
> Welles' (S&W: "Welles's" - urgh) adaptation of War Of The Worlds,
> for instance.
Well, I have no restrictions. It just has to be something I can accomplish!
I can't read or watch everything ever done. I have to read it all in the
next few months and write about it convincingly in, oh, December or maybe
January. Or maybe as soon as November.
Three exams, one after the other. If I'm prepared enough, one per week. I
had been planning on the end of November but may push it back because I
don't have reading lists settled with two examiners--sf&f is one of them
Anastasia
> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>
>>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
>>> SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American.
>>> Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense.
>>> I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American,
>>> 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd
>>> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>> H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and
>> Heinlein are also "safe" authors.
>
> But be careful of dates. The best of HG Wells dates from before
> 1900.
I think anything +/- 10 years is okay. But also, a list of maybe 20 is what
I'm going for. I just now decided that, because that's how many are on my
19th century exam.
That means whole bodies of work, such as "Heinlein" are out. Think of it not
as a dream list of books what are good, but something that somebody has to
read and take a test on.
tamara
> Also all male, but thanks for the start.
"The Penguin Book of Modern Fantasy by Women" has many short stories
dating between 1941 and 1994, and could be a good starting point.
tamara,
who is still waiting for her library to arrive...
Lesley Weston
house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 02/09/2006 9:30 PM:
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
All the Campbell-edited stuff, to begin with. There are those who claim that
this is the whole of SF - nothing was written before Astounding/Analog, and
nothing has been written since he stopped editing it. Few people here would
be that extreme, I think, but there is certainly a very strong "Without
whom..." factor. Then there's Hugo Gernsback, who arguably created the whole
field single-handedly, calling it "scientifiction". His own work is as
unreadable as that word is infelicitous, IMO.
For Fantasy I can't really suggest anything except the obvious: Tolkien
and TP himself, though all the members of The Golden Dawn might be worth
looking at - even E.M. Forster did the obligatory Pan story, which is
actually not bad.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Eric Jarvis
<db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
HG Wells: The First Men in the Moon 1901
M. P. Shiel: The Purple Cloud 1901
G. K. Chesterton: The Napoleon of Notting Hill 1904
P. G. Wodehouse: The Swoop 1910
J. D. Beresford: The Hampdenshire Wonder 1911
Arthur Conan Doyle: The Lost World 1912
Rudyard Kipling: As Easy as A.B.C. 1912
Guy Thorne: The Cruiser on Wheels 1915
John Buchan: Greenmantle 1916
JM Barrie: Dear Brutus 1917
Rose Macaulay: What Not 1918
David Lindsay: A Voyage to Arcturus 1920
George Bernard Shaw: Back to Methuselah 1921
Lord Dunsany: The King of Elfland's Daughter 1924
Charlotte Haldane: Man's World 1926
Edgar Wallace: The Day of the Uniting 1926
Virginia Woolf: Orlando 1928
Olaf Stapledon: Last and First Men 1930
Aldous Huxley: Brave New World 1932
Olaf Stapledon: Odd John 1935
John Wyndham: The Secret People 1935
HG Wells/Alexander Korda: Things to Come 1935
CS Lewis: Out of the Silent Planet 1938
Arthur C. Clarke: Against the Fall of Night 1948
George Orwell: 1984 1949
Robert Graves: Seven Days in New Crete 1949
CS Lewis: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe 1950
Brits from 1900-1950
Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any essential
reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of subjects and
ideologies.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Anastasia
> Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
> <db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>>
>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>
>
> Brits from 1900-1950
>
> Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any
> essential reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of
> subjects and ideologies.
Wow, thank you, that's the sort of thing I need.
Now, what exam question should I ask myself?
Torak
> Torak wrote:
>>den...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>>>Anastasia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
>>>>>SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British &
>>>>>American. Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the
>>>>>most sense. I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British &
>>>>>American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish).
>>>>>I'd love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
>>Are you doing just written, or notable other things as well? Orson
>>Welles' (S&W: "Welles's" - urgh) adaptation of War Of The Worlds,
>>for instance.
>
> Well, I have no restrictions. It just has to be something I can accomplish!
> I can't read or watch everything ever done. I have to read it all in the
> next few months and write about it convincingly in, oh, December or maybe
> January. Or maybe as soon as November.
Well, the social effects of that adaptation could be a fairly
interesting topic.
Eric Jarvis
<brfrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
> > Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
> > <db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> >>
> >> So...what should I put on the reading list?
> >>
> >
> <snip>
> > Brits from 1900-1950
> >
> > Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any
> > essential reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of
> > subjects and ideologies.
>
> Wow, thank you, that's the sort of thing I need.
>
> Now, what exam question should I ask myself?
>
The question I've been asking is how does the tiny number of women on the
list relate to the content of the work produced by the men on the list.
Finding any pre 1950 sf by women was hard work, finding any that wasn't
avowedly feminist was nigh on impossible. I can't find any evidence of
anyone British who fits the bill other than Rose Macaulay.
Sometimes going back to look at the past is a tad scary. :)
Sabremeister Brian
Anastasia (house_d...@yahoo.com) spake thusly:
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's
> your chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF
> &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole
> century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I
> welcome
> suggestions.
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd
> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
How long can you wait? At home (Yorkshire) I've got the Encyclopaedia
of Fantasy and Science Fiction (with a forward by Pterry), and it has
quite a lot of between-the-wars stuff in it. I may be going back there
in a couple of weeks, or it could be delayed until 2nd/3rd week of
October.
--
www.sabremeister.me.uk
www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
"You move with the eloquence of disintegrating fuselage."
Courtesy of The Surrealist Compliment Generator.
Anastasia
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
household names.
Start with the following two historians: Justine Larbalastier and Mike
Ashley. Follow up with Helen Merrick and Gary Westfahl.
--
<Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke all men--I could include LeGuin>
and get your periods right! LeGuin is utterly wrong.
*Why* 1900-1950? There's no real sense to that. As rough periodisation I'd
offer:
1870-1929
1929-1940
1940-1955 (when the pbs take over.)
1955-1965
1965-1980 (political and aesthetic experiments, ending in cyberpunk)
1980-now (there will be a period break in there somewhere but I can't yet
see it)
My suggestion is that you focus 1940-1965. That's Golden Age up to New Wave.
--
Call for Papers: Representing the Other, Gender and Sexuality in the
Fantastic (International Association of the Fantastic in the Arts, Ft
Lauderdale, FL. March 14-18, 2007). GoH: Geoff Ryman, Melissa Scott,
Marina Warner. Details at: http://www.iafa.org
Blog: http://www.esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Richard Bos
> Mike Stevens wrote:
> > Pudde Fjord wrote:
> >> Anastasia wrote:
> >>
> >>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
> >>> SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American.
> >>> Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense.
> >>> I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American,
> >>> 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd
> >>> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> >> H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and
> >> Heinlein are also "safe" authors.
> >
> > But be careful of dates. The best of HG Wells dates from before
> > 1900.
>
> I think anything +/- 10 years is okay. But also, a list of maybe 20 is what
> I'm going for. I just now decided that, because that's how many are on my
> 19th century exam.
>
> That means whole bodies of work, such as "Heinlein" are out. Think of it not
> as a dream list of books what are good, but something that somebody has to
> read and take a test on.
Oho. In that case, definitely one by Wyndham. Take your pick: The Day of
the Triffids, 1951; The Kraken Wakes, 1953; The Chrysalids, 1955.
Triffids is the most famous; Chrysalids had a famous film made of it,
The Midwich Cuckoos IIRTTC; but IMO, Kraken is the best.
Just over the other end of the period, in 1895 H.G. Wells published The
Time Machine, in 1896 The Island of Dr. Moreau, and in 1898 The War of
the Worlds. As he is probably _the_ most important early influence on
the genre, even bigger, IYAM, than Verne, one of those is essential,
too. WotW, despite its fame, is IMO not the best; Moreau is possibly the
best written of the three, but The Time Machine is also very
interesting, with its Morlocks and Eloi.
And still definitely Leiber. One of the earlier ones; perhaps Swords
Against Death, which contains the masterly Bazaar of the Bizarre.
If you want an overview rather than a selection of the very best, you
also want one of the space cowboy stories which were popular. Perhaps
Skylark of Space, by E.E. "Doc" Smith?
One problem you have is that a lot of early SF, including a lot of the
good stuff, was published as short stories in magazines. A "Best of
Amazing" collection, if there is one, would net you a lot of the top
authors.
Richard
T.M. Sommers
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
John Myers Myers, _Silverlock_, 1949.
--
Thomas M. Sommers -- t...@nj.net -- AB2SB
Ssirienna
"Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:brfrs3x...@news.gkhs.net...
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
>> Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
>> <db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>>>
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>
>>
> <snip>
>> Brits from 1900-1950
>>
>> Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any
>> essential reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of
>> subjects and ideologies.
One to add to the list
William Hope Hodgson - 1877 to 1918
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/william-hope-hodgson/
British writer - wrote some VERY unusual
One reviewer quotes:
"His influence on the other major fantasists of the early twentieth century
is probably slight, as his books fell out of sight for awhile after his
death. When the books did come to light, however, those fantasists were
*impressed*. The cover blurbs on my copy of "The NightLand" are by H.P.
Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith. You don't find many books about which you
can say that!
As I indicated with respect to "The Night Land", I can only give
anambivalent recommendation. If you like plot-driven fantasy, Hodgson's
books don't have much in the way of plot. If you like character-driven
fantasy, you're in no better shape. If you're attracted by the prospect of
seeing a talent which can work language so as to shape and sustain a mood
across hundreds of pages, you'll want to read Hodgson -- because there's
virtually nobody else."
I've read the short story collection "Carnaki the GhostFinder" which is more
supernatural horror than fantasy - but it was good!
Ssirienna
Anastasia
> In a speech called db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net,
> Anastasia (house_d...@yahoo.com) spake thusly:
>
>>
>
>
> How long can you wait?
That's fuzzy. And I'm getting the idea that I might need to restrict it to
either fantasy, or Golden Age SF.
Eric Jarvis
<nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> Anastasia wrote:
>
> > So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>
> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
> names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>
> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
> Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
> household names.
>
Olaf Stapledon: Last and First Men 1930
Aldous Huxley: Brave New World 1932
Olaf Stapledon: Odd John 1935
John Wyndham: The Secret People 1935
HG Wells/Alexander Korda: Things to Come 1935
CS Lewis: Out of the Silent Planet 1938
From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but it's far
from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass of British
literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that includes both sf and
fantasy.
graham
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:30:05 -0400, "Anastasia"
<house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
>or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
>But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
>do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
First thing, that 1900 to 1950 is *way* to big a selection, you've got
everything from H.G.Wells (The Sleeper Wakes is SteamPunk long before
the term was invented) to the post-WWII and post-atomic SF of Clarke,
Asimov et al.
You really need to pick a more specific period, eg (grabbing his handy
copy of The Encyclopaedia of SF) from 1900 to 1925 or so, when Hugo
Gernsback coined the (horrid!) term "Scientifiction" or the Post-War
period from about the late 40's to the early 60's when Asimov, Clarke,
Heinlein, Bradbury et al wrote some of their best works against a
background of the Cold War, UFOs, the thread of M.A.D., "Reds under
the bed" etc.
(ADDENDUM: I've just read your follow up message where someone else
has pointed this out too :-) )
>So...what should I put on the reading list?
Personally I'd go for the latter period (because it contains some of
my all time favourite SF) and pick stuff like...
Arthur C Clarke "Against the Fall of Night"
John Wyndham "The Midwich Cuckoos"
Isaac Asimov "The Caves of Steel" (IMO way better than "Foundation"),
Rober Heinlein "Starship Troopers" and "Stranger in a Strange Land",
Ray Bradbury "Farenheit 451"
Walter M Miller "A Canticle for Leibowitz"
... although there are plenty more where those came from :-)
Cheers,
Graham.
Nil Flagellate Sine Lucre
graham
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:23:17 -0400, "Anastasia"
<house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Now, what exam question should I ask myself?
Ah, I see that a lot of other people have suggested stuff :-)
Actually, something that comes to mind is if you picked both the very
early (1900 stuff) and some of the 1950's to 1960's stuff and compared
how the writing and content has changed according to the times
(political, economic, social) it was written in.
April Goodwin-Smith
> Sabremeister Brian wrote:
>> Anastasia spake thusly:
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>> How long can you wait?
> That's fuzzy. And I'm getting the idea that I might need to
> restrict it to either fantasy, or Golden Age SF.
>
Don't forget _Herland_ by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.
I'm not sure you should include it, because it was orignally
self-published in serial form in a small newsletter in the early
?20s?, and then not published in book form until the ?60's?,
and it is also very bad - the idea is quite interesting, and even
her exploration of the implications of her idea are interesting,
but over all, the writing sucks. But, nonetheless, I think it has
been seen as influential.
Another useful resource might be _The World Beyond the Hill_
by Panshin and Panshin.
Also - another way of doing this is to select something you
would like to know about, write your essay question to suit
that, and then construct your reading list.
April.
Anastasia
>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most
>> genres. Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and
>> Doc Smith, not household names.
>>
>
> Olaf Stapledon: Last and First Men 1930
> Aldous Huxley: Brave New World 1932
> Olaf Stapledon: Odd John 1935
> John Wyndham: The Secret People 1935
> HG Wells/Alexander Korda: Things to Come 1935
> CS Lewis: Out of the Silent Planet 1938
>
> From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but
> it's far from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass
> of British literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that
> includes both sf and fantasy.
Oh, great....caught in a debate between Eric and <advisor who said that
other thing>.
But thank you.
The exam might take a turn toward satire, as it looks now. A lot can happen
in a day. But guess who that would allow me to include? It's almost relevant
to the group.
Anastasia
> Also - another way of doing this is to select something you
> would like to know about, write your essay question to suit
> that, and then construct your reading list.
Same person who wrote the other advice I pasted in:
"But for heaven's sake: if you aren't/don'tr want to be an sf expert
why take an exam in it. Why not look at fantasy in the same period? Is
there a rubric you have to follow?"
And after another e-mail from me:
"I wonder if something on satire and irony in fantasy might not work much
better. Or even just taking a look at early fantasy."
Me: D'oh!
You are wise, April Goodwin-Smith.
raymond larsson
> >>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
> >>> SF & Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American.
> >>> Whole century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense.
> >>> I welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American,
> >>> 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd
> >>> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
> I think anything +/- 10 years is okay. But also, a list of maybe 20 is what
> I'm going for. I just now decided that, because that's how many are on my
> 19th century exam.
>
> That means whole bodies of work, such as "Heinlein" are out. Think of it not
> as a dream list of books what are good, but something that somebody has to
> read and take a test on.
Starting with the obvious:
H. G. Wells _The Time Machine_(1895)/"The New Accelerator"(1901)/(purely
because of Moorcock's _ The Land Leviathan_) "The Land Ironclads"(1903).
Lord Dunsany _The Charwoman's Shadow_(1926), "The Fortress
Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth"(1908)[but there are others as good or
better]
Olaf Stapledon _Odd John_(1935) or _Sirius: A Fantasy of Love and
Discord_(1944) but _Last and First Men_(1930) is more noted, though not
as accessible and appealing more to odd people such as me (I liked both
_Star Maker_ and _Nebula Maker_).
Thorne Smith _Topper_(1926) or _The Stray Lamb(1929)/Night Life of the
Gods(1931)/Rain in the Doorway_(1933)(enjoyable, but these three are too
much of a piece).
Robert A. Heinlein _The Puppet Masters_(1951) or _The Star Beast_(1954)
if a novel, "They"(1941), "Requiem"(1940), and "We Also Walk Dogs"(1941)
preferably. (take with a gram of salt)
Clifford Simak _City_(collection 1952; "Huddling Place"(1944) and
"Desertion"(1944) I think are noteworthy).
A. E. van Vogt "Black Destroyer"(1939), if I were to recommend a long
work it would be _The Voyage of the Space Beagle_ which also contains
"Discord in Scarlet" and "M 33 in Andromeda". Noted long works are
_Slan_, _The World of Null-A_, and _The Weapon Shops of Isher_.
E. E. Smith _Galactic Patrol_(Lensmen 1937/38)
Hope Mirrlees _LUD-In-the-Mist_(1926)
Virginia Woolf _Orlando_
C. L. Moore the Jirel of Joiry stories; "Shambleau" of the Northwest
Smith stories. "Clash by Night" and "no Woman Born".
H. P. Lovecraft "The Colour Out of Space"?
Robert E. Howard is perhaps dispensable I would recommend a Kull rather
than a Conan - maybe "The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune ".
Leigh Brackett the non-Skaith Eric John Stark stories, _The Sword of
Rhiannon_(1948).
Judith Merril "That Only a Mother"(1948)
Wilmar H. Shiras _Children of the Atom_(1948/50).
Sylvia Townsend Warner is not a serious recommendation. but her entry in
tEoF makes me want to read her.
Evangeline Walton _The Island of the Mighty_(really 1936).
--
rgl "I find this varies considerably from near-death experience
to near-death experience." James Nicoll
The Stainless Steel Cat
"Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Anastasia wrote:
>
>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
>I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>
> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
>names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>
>The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
>Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
>household names.
What on Earth's (as it were) wrong with hack writers? You might not want to
read their stuff for fun nowadays, but they constitute a valid part of the
genre, even a vital part if you're looking at it historically.
From what Asimov writes in his autobiographical work, those writers were a
strong influence on his fiction writing, not just in content but in style.
(Mostly as in "That's awful, I'm not going to write that way" but still.) I
can't believe he was the only later SF writer affected by them. If you're
looking at the Golden Age writers, can you really afford to ignore such a
strong influence on them?
Further, as much as SF writers are *ever* household names, many of those
hack writers publishing in the pulp SF mags would have been just as well
known at the time as Burroughs and Smith.
Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
"Yes, I've read scientifiction. Try not to faint." Capt. Mal Gernsback
Anastasia
> In article <trars3x...@news.gkhs.net>, Anastasia says...
>
>>>>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century
>>>>> SF & Fantasy.
>
>
I see you've confirmed a few that fit what I think I might be doing.
Arthur Hagen
>
> What on Earth's (as it were) wrong with hack writers? You might not
> want to read their stuff for fun nowadays, but they constitute a
> valid part of the genre, even a vital part if you're looking at it
> historically.
>
> From what Asimov writes in his autobiographical work, those writers
> were a strong influence on his fiction writing, not just in content
> but in style. (Mostly as in "That's awful, I'm not going to write
> that way" but still.) I can't believe he was the only later SF writer
> affected by them. If you're looking at the Golden Age writers, can
> you really afford to ignore such a strong influence on them?
Also, do not forget that many of our favourite SF writers *were* hack
writers one time or another, either before they became famous, or when they
needed money. Writers (and later editors) like John W. Campbell, Lester Del
Rey, Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg all can thank pulp magazines like
Amazing, Astounding and Analog for their careers, and quite often, they
wrote on quota, having to submit x thousand words for the next issue or not
have food on the table.
Regards,
--
*Art
Anastasia
> In article <nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>,
> "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>
>> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>>
>> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929
>> has big names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>>
>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most
>> genres. Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and
>> Doc Smith, not household names.
>
> What on Earth's (as it were) wrong with hack writers? You might not
> want to read their stuff for fun nowadays, but they constitute a
> valid part of the genre, even a vital part if you're looking at it
> historically.
Did I leave out . . . no, she says "Many of them good." Just that they are
not big names.
I'm trying to construct an exam, and for that purpose, I need recognizable
names.
Anastasia
> The Stainless Steel Cat <stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> What on Earth's (as it were) wrong with hack writers? You might not
>> want to read their stuff for fun nowadays, but they constitute a
>> valid part of the genre, even a vital part if you're looking at it
>> historically.
<snip>
> Also, do not forget that many of our favourite SF writers *were*
> hack writers one time or another, either before they became famous,
> or when they needed money.
Let's not forget Heinlein, about whom I know enough to say I know something.
Let's not forget why I started this thread--we can change the subject line
if we need to.
I didn't say hack writers were bad, and neither did the advsor I quoted in
an earlier post. She said many were quite good.
Pudde Fjord
You missed JRR Tolkien: The Hobbit 1937
Pudde.
Pudde Fjord
> Anastasia wrote:
>> Also all male, but thanks for the start.
>
> "The Penguin Book of Modern Fantasy by Women" has many short stories
> dating between 1941 and 1994, and could be a good starting point.
>
> tamara,
> who is still waiting for her library to arrive...
>
Most of the SF & F writers in the early 1900s was male or writing under
a male psevdonym, I think. At least the well-known ones.
Try to include some works that you've read before, this would ease the
load a bit. You'll have to reread it, but that can be done much quicker.
Specific works:
If you want to make a specific theme to your paper, this should be your
major guideline for the selection. A lot of sub-genres (like time travel
or alien societies) is available. (reads rest of thread)
It seems to me you can vary both the timeframe and subject to suit your
needs,, so I would suggest to make this a personal matter.
What kind of books do you *like* to read, and what makes you like them?
I know one author ;-) but for this you have to think a bit.
Look for the same kind of material from the past, limited to the "great"
names suggested earlier, without making the age of the works a
limitation (yet).
You can then try to group the material in themes, SF/Fantasy and time
frames and try to even out the selections to be roughly equal. See if
some kind of ideas for what you can write about strike you.
Here's some ideas *I* could have used for a thesis myself, if I ever
wanted to work that hard:
SF and Fantasy as a reflection of society.
Optimistic future vs. reality.
"Back to nature": From Tarzan to Post nuclear nightmares.
Dystopian societies: From 1984 to Blade Runner.
Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
etc.
I tried to get some well-known works in the titles where appropriate, to
give a feeling of the nature of the works involved.
good luck with your selection.
Pudde.
The Stainless Steel Cat
"Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The Stainless Steel Cat wrote:
>> In article <nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>,
>> "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anastasia wrote:
>>>
>>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>
>>> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>>>
>>> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929
>>> has big names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>>>
>>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most
>>> genres. Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and
>>> Doc Smith, not household names.
>>
>> What on Earth's (as it were) wrong with hack writers? You might not
>> want to read their stuff for fun nowadays, but they constitute a
>> valid part of the genre, even a vital part if you're looking at it
>> historically.
>
>Did I leave out . . . no, she says "Many of them good." Just that they are
>not big names.
No, it wasn't the quality I was quibbling about (note to self: must use the
word "quibble" more often), I took an implication from that paragraph that
because they were hack writers they should be ignored.
>I'm trying to construct an exam, and for that purpose, I need recognizable
>names.
Fair enough. For an exam you're looking for something short and to the
point rather than the completeness you'd want for a thesis. I skimmed over
that word in your original post because the only PhD event close to an exam
that I know about is the final viva.
If you're looking for female SF authors, I don't know many from pre-1950
(Mary Shelley is *too* early) but there's Zenna Henderson:
http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Zenna.html
(Checks bib... drat! She seems to have started publishing in 1951...)
The only other one I know of is CL Moore, who ISTR published in
Astounding, so that must be the right period.
I can't speak for how recognizble those names are, I remember them from the
time, decades go, when I used to trawl through libraries looking for
ancient, mostly falling-apart SF anthologies.
Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk (The Stainless Steel Cat)
> If you're looking for female SF authors, I don't know many
> from pre-1950 (Mary Shelley is *too* early) but there's
> Zenna Henderson: http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Zenna.html
> (Checks bib... drat! She seems to have started publishing
> in 1951...)
>
> The only other one I know of is CL Moore, who ISTR
> published in Astounding, so that must be the right period.
On the recent point that most SF of the period was written
under a male name, regardless of the author's real sex (cf
James Tiptree), does anyone know if it's true that this is why
Catherine Lucille went by her intitials?
I *think* I got this idea from the DS9 episode where she's
played by Kira as KC Hunter, so it may well be rubbish.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The need to compile lists is a personality disorder,
as is the need to assert the superiority of some things
over other things."
-Jeremy Hardy
Louise
"Eric Jarvis" <er...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f6557567...@cenote.gkhs.net...
The only one of these I have read is Brave New World. I'm shocked how old it
is.
How could he write such a prescient novel? If anyone foresaw Dystopia and
what they do there for fun/opium of masses, Huxley did .
Are the other titles on this sub-list of comparable quality?
Oh Eric, you are very learn-ed :-)
Louise
Lesley Weston
stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk wrote on 03/09/2006 10:28 PM:
> In article <nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>,
> "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>
>> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>>
>> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
>> names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>>
>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
>> Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
>> household names.
<snip>
> Further, as much as SF writers are *ever* household names, many of those
> hack writers publishing in the pulp SF mags would have been just as well
> known at the time as Burroughs and Smith.
Kurt Vonnegut's character, the SF writer Kilgore Trout would be relevant
here. Although he is very much The Real Thing, his work can be found only at
dingy little stores whose main trade is in porn.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Anastasia
> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
This is what it's looking like.
So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
Free Lunch
Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<C121DFE6.4DE9A%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>in article C1217810...@192.168.0.2, The Stainless Steel Cat at
>stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk wrote on 03/09/2006 10:28 PM:
>
>> In article <nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>,
>> "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anastasia wrote:
>>>
>>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>
>>> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>>>
>>> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
>>> names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>>>
>>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
>>> Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
>>> household names.
>
><snip>
>
>> Further, as much as SF writers are *ever* household names, many of those
>> hack writers publishing in the pulp SF mags would have been just as well
>> known at the time as Burroughs and Smith.
>
>Kurt Vonnegut's character, the SF writer Kilgore Trout would be relevant
>here. Although he is very much The Real Thing, his work can be found only at
>dingy little stores whose main trade is in porn.
_Venus on the Half-Shell_ wasn't porn.
Orjan Westin
> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>
>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>
> This is what it's looking like.
>
> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>
> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>
> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
Karel Capek, Stanislaw Lem, and Pavel Kohout for starters.
Mikhail Bulgakov, of course.
Heinlein, too. And Douglas Adams and Harry Harrison.
Diana Wynne Jones.
And wossname, with the Thraxas novels... Martin Scott.
Mike Resnik's books in the Santiagoverse, too.
Asimov wrote both humour and social conscience satire, but not at the same
time.
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
A Willis
<house_d...@yahoo.com> writes
>Eric Jarvis wrote:
>> From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but
>> it's far from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass
>> of British literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that
>> includes both sf and fantasy.
>
>Oh, great....caught in a debate between Eric and <advisor who said that
>other thing>.
>
>But thank you.
>
>The exam might take a turn toward satire, as it looks now. A lot can happen
>in a day. But guess who that would allow me to include? It's almost relevant
>to the group.
>
Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
suspect it doesn't really count.
Actually that does lead to the obvious question, are you just going to
be looking at satire of the real world, or also SF and Fantasy that
satirises other SF and Fantasy? Personally I prefer the former rather
than the latter, particularly in Discworld but that may just be because
I get more of the references.
I'd like to suggest "When The Wind Blows" by Raymond Briggs [1],
although it's only very loosely SF [2]. I'm doubtful as to whether
Animal Farm counts as Fantasy, which is a shame. Sadly most of the other
satirical SF and Fantasy I can think of is TV or film rather than
literature, although I suspect some of them are based on short stories I
have yet to read.
[1] Yes, the bloke who wrote "The Snowman" and "Fungus the Bogeyman".
[2] and is a comic book to boot. Although if that's allowed, then maybe
"V for Vendetta" too, which is much more sharply political in focus.
--
A Willis (ali from #afp). Reply-to is valid, afpers works better.
Lurker and Occasional Meet Quotefile Fodder
Unintentional Innuendo and Useless Information A Speciality
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 20:49:49 GMT, in alt.fan.pratchett
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> <C121DFE6.4DE9A%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>Kurt Vonnegut's character, the SF writer Kilgore Trout
>>would be relevant here. Although he is very much The Real
>>Thing, his work can be found only at dingy little stores
>>whose main trade is in porn.
>
> _Venus on the Half-Shell_ wasn't porn.
I don't think the point is that Trout's books are porn, but
that they end up in the sort of shop the young Pterry used to
visit, which is filled with cheap SF so that the stuff they're
actually in business to sell is less than 10% of the stock for
arcane legal reasons.
Diane L
<snip>
> The Princess Bride! ;-)
> Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
> suspect it doesn't really count.
No, I'm pretty sure it was a book first.
Diane L.
(who doesn't have anything useful to contribute to this thread, sorry)
Free Lunch
A Willis <afpr...@asphalt.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<Gdza75sz1J$EF...@asphalt.demon.co.uk>:
>In message <7fjss3x...@news.gkhs.net>, Anastasia
><house_d...@yahoo.com> writes
>>Eric Jarvis wrote:
>>> From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but
>>> it's far from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass
>>> of British literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that
>>> includes both sf and fantasy.
>>
>>Oh, great....caught in a debate between Eric and <advisor who said that
>>other thing>.
>>
>>But thank you.
>>
>>The exam might take a turn toward satire, as it looks now. A lot can happen
>>in a day. But guess who that would allow me to include? It's almost relevant
>>to the group.
>>
>The Princess Bride! ;-)
>Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
>suspect it doesn't really count.
And it wasn't even written by who it was written by.
Free Lunch
Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in
<Xns9834E8AE...@130.133.1.4>:
>The time: 04 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The
>speaker: Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
>
>> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 20:49:49 GMT, in alt.fan.pratchett
>> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>> <C121DFE6.4DE9A%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
>>>Kurt Vonnegut's character, the SF writer Kilgore Trout
>>>would be relevant here. Although he is very much The Real
>>>Thing, his work can be found only at dingy little stores
>>>whose main trade is in porn.
>>
>> _Venus on the Half-Shell_ wasn't porn.
>
>I don't think the point is that Trout's books are porn, but
>that they end up in the sort of shop the young Pterry used to
>visit, which is filled with cheap SF so that the stuff they're
>actually in business to sell is less than 10% of the stock for
>arcane legal reasons.
Ah, those kinds.
<voice style="Emily Litella">Never mind</voice>
Diane L
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 22:41:07 +0100, in alt.fan.pratchett
> A Willis <afpr...@asphalt.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>> The Princess Bride! ;-)
>> Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
>> suspect it doesn't really count.
>
> And it wasn't even written by who it was written by.
William Goldman didn't write 'The Princess Bride'???
Diane L.
Orjan Westin
No, he just abridged it.
Diane L
OK, don't bother telling me Morgenstern doesn't exist, the penny
dropped just after I sent the post. I read it as "It (the film) wasn't
even written by who it (the book) was written by." Time for bed,
I think.
Diane L.
Anastasia
> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>
>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>
> This is what it's looking like.
>
> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>
> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>
> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
I'm starting to look around. I wanted humor, but:
Brave New World
Animal Farm
Nineteen Eighty-four (interesting aside on this was given me by a friend)
"do remind them that Orwell specifically said it was to be called Nineteen
Eighty-Four, and NOT 1984!"
Discworld
I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
I'd say it probably is.
Comments?
Anastasia
> Anastasia wrote:
>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>
>>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>>
>> This is what it's looking like.
>>
>> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>>
>> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>>
>> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
>
> Karel Capek, Stanislaw Lem, and Pavel Kohout for starters.
Okay, got specific works in mind? This must above all be doable. I read fast
and satire is my home turf, but I need a stack of books measured in pounds,
not tons. :-)
> Mikhail Bulgakov, of course.
I would like to do world lit, but I should do British if possible. American
and British, maybe
> Heinlein, too. And Douglas Adams and Harry Harrison.
Mmm, I think Starship Troopers might be satire. And Adams, yess. Harrison's
work I don't know--I've read West of Eden.
> Diana Wynne Jones.
I have only read the Chrestomanci series and The Tough Guide to Fantasyland,
but for various reasosn I would like for her to be on the exam. Are there a
few specific works you'd term satire?
> And wossname, with the Thraxas novels... Martin Scott.
>
> Mike Resnik's books in the Santiagoverse, too.
>
> Asimov wrote both humour and social conscience satire, but not at
> the same time.
Would you care to elaborate?
Anastasia
> In message <7fjss3x...@news.gkhs.net>, Anastasia
> <house_d...@yahoo.com> writes
>> Eric Jarvis wrote:
>>> From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but
>>> it's far from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass
>>> of British literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that
>>> includes both sf and fantasy.
>>
>> Oh, great....caught in a debate between Eric and <advisor who said
>> that other thing>.
>>
>> But thank you.
>>
>> The exam might take a turn toward satire, as it looks now. A lot
>> can happen in a day. But guess who that would allow me to include?
>> It's almost relevant to the group.
>>
> The Princess Bride! ;-)
> Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
> suspect it doesn't really count.
It's my exam, I can have it if I like. And I like. It fits right in with
where I think I might be going now.
> Actually that does lead to the obvious question, are you just going
> to be looking at satire of the real world, or also SF and Fantasy
> that satirises other SF and Fantasy? Personally I prefer the former
> rather than the latter, particularly in Discworld but that may just
> be because I get more of the references.
Either, both. But I'm not sure I'd make the distinction, really. It's hard
to be that pure....fantasy novels are a part of the real world, after all.
> I'd like to suggest "When The Wind Blows" by Raymond Briggs [1],
> although it's only very loosely SF [2]. I'm doubtful as to whether
> Animal Farm counts as Fantasy, which is a shame. Sadly most of the
> other satirical SF and Fantasy I can think of is TV or film rather
> than literature, although I suspect some of them are based on short
> stories I have yet to read.
For now I am staying away from tv and film, but no one has forbidden me to
include them. These exams are VERY self-guided.
Eric Jarvis
<2mkus3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> Anastasia wrote:
> > Pudde Fjord wrote:
> >
> >> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
> >
> > This is what it's looking like.
> >
> > So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
> >
> > This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
> >
> > But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
>
> I'm starting to look around. I wanted humor, but:
>
> Brave New World
> Animal Farm
> Nineteen Eighty-four (interesting aside on this was given me by a friend)
>
> "do remind them that Orwell specifically said it was to be called Nineteen
> Eighty-Four, and NOT 1984!"
>
> Discworld
>
> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
> I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
> I'd say it probably is.
>
> Comments?
>
P. G. Wodehouse: The Swoop 1910
Apparently the first published parody of fantasy.
Charlotte Haldane: Man's World 1926
Haven't, to my shame, read it (or even seen a copy). However it's a fair
bet that there's at least an element of satire judging purely by the
title.
George Bernard Shaw: Back to Methuselah 1921
Personally I don't find GBS funny very often, but I'm pretty sure he was
trying to be satirical much of the time. There also aren't all that many
fantasy or sf plays.
so
Grigory Gorin: Forget Herostratus
Time travel and a satire on the rise of Nazism and Communism. One of the
best Russian plays of the late 20th Century IMO.
Edward Albee: Seascape 1975
Should qualify as fantasy IMO, is also bitingly funny.
James Saunders: The Island
Should qualify as sf and done well is hilarious.
Which begs the question of whether "absurd" can simultaneously be
fantastic. I don't see a clear dividing line, but many people clearly do.
Back to novels.
TJ Bass: The Godwhale 1975
A neglected masterpiece. This should be near the top of the list.
Edmund Cooper: Kronk
Probably his most famous satirical novel, though I don't think it's his
best.
Norman Spinrad: The Iron Dream
The sf novel that Hitler never wrote. I'm not sure how well it works but
it's definitely a brave experiment.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Min
<afpr...@asphalt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <7fjss3x...@news.gkhs.net>, Anastasia
><house_d...@yahoo.com> writes
>>Eric Jarvis wrote:
>>> From my previous list. It may be true for US science fiction, but
>>> it's far from true when it comes to the UK. There is a whole mass
>>> of British literature inspired by the rise of Nazism, and that
>>> includes both sf and fantasy.
>>
>>Oh, great....caught in a debate between Eric and <advisor who said that
>>other thing>.
>>
>>But thank you.
>>
>>The exam might take a turn toward satire, as it looks now. A lot can happen
>>in a day. But guess who that would allow me to include? It's almost relevant
>>to the group.
>>
>The Princess Bride! ;-)
>Although that was a film before it was a book first, wasn't it, so I
>suspect it doesn't really count.
>
<Delurk>
Definitely NOT - William Goldman went through a *lot* of angst to get
to the film - read 'Adventures in the Screen Trade', 'Further
Adventures In The Screen Trade' and 'WWhat Lie Did I Tell?'
</Relurk>
--
ADB
Richard Adams
> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
> chance to give it back.
>
> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish) to1950(ish). I'd love to
> do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>
> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>
Something you may wish to add to your Listening List:
<http://www.archive.org/details/Dimension-X>
These were some of the SF shorts of the 1940's and 50's by many of the
favourites of the day performed as radio plays, which may give a bit of
flavour of the time. Most of these are widely considered excellent plays.
The Roxter
Neither was "Wide Open Beavers."
-rockembarrassed
--
Anastasia
>
> Something you may wish to add to your Listening List:
>
> <http://www.archive.org/details/Dimension-X>
>
Thanks.
I just found a source for free audiobooks of public domain books.
http://manybooks.net/collections/audiobook_links.php
I can't vouch for the quality yet, I'm still downloading--Frankenstein,
Dracula, Jekyll & Hyde--and will listen to them on my way to and from school
for the next few weeks.
Unless they're bad, then I won't.
jester
<house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Anastasia wrote:
>
>I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
>I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
>I'd say it probably is.
>
>Comments?
I'm less worried about whether it was satire then, which I think it
probably was (dredges memory for stuff from O-Level English Lit. Fails
totally), than I am about it being used as an instruction manual by
certain governments *now*
--
Andy Brown
Remember, when someone annoys you, It takes 42 muscles in your face to frown
BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and smack the doofus upside
the head.
Pudde Fjord
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:07:30 -0400, Anastasia
> <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>
>> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
>> I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
>> I'd say it probably is.
>>
>> Comments?
>
> I'm less worried about whether it was satire then, which I think it
> probably was (dredges memory for stuff from O-Level English Lit. Fails
> totally), than I am about it being used as an instruction manual by
> certain governments *now*
>
He *wanted* to call it Nineteen Forty-Eight, you know...
The shifting alliances of WW2 was one of the thing I recognized when I
first read this.
And I've heard several stories about people from USSR asking if he'd
been to their country before he wrote this book.
Pudde.
tamara
> Okay, got specific works in mind? This must above all be doable. I read fast
> and satire is my home turf, but I need a stack of books measured in pounds,
> not tons. :-)
Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere or Stardust (probably the former, for social
conscience).
Connie Willis - Even the Queen (short story, but fits your (current)
list of requirements to the letter (with the exception of being american)
Heinlein - Job: A Comedy of Justice
I'm going to add A Canticle for Leibowitz again, even though it's not
too humoristic.
Without my complete library present, this is the best list I can do so
far (for some reason I need to have the books in front of my eyes to
realise that they fit the bill...)
tamara,
suffering from library deficiency syndrome
--
"From now on, I'll describe the cities to you," the Khan had said, "in
your journeys you will see if they exist."
Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities
Richard Adams
> Anastasia wrote:
>
>> Okay, got specific works in mind? This must above all be doable. I
>> read fast and satire is my home turf, but I need a stack of books
>> measured in pounds, not tons. :-)
>
>
> Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere or Stardust (probably the former, for social
> conscience).
Stardust is quite a good read, but have you read Anansi Boys, yet? IMHO
his best work to date.
Mike Stevens
>
> Stardust is quite a good read, but have you read Anansi Boys, yet? IMHO
> his best work to date.
I agree. It's a brilliant juggling with traditional myth in a modern
context. As Terry does at times (for some valoues of "modern").
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.
Julian Hall
> Anastasia wrote:
>> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
>> chance to give it back.
>>
>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
>> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>
> Another author who started writing only in 1950, but I think would also
> be a good addition is Philip K. Dick. He's written too many good books
> to recommend any specific one,
Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?
aka the book Bladerunner was based on.
--
Kind regards,
Julian Hall
"I'm only on the planet because I missed the bus home"
Julian Hall
EE Doc Smith - The Family D'Alembert series - interesting twist on how a future might pan
out with a Russian basis of society structure. Also very funny (IMO :))
> Mmm, I think Starship Troopers might be satire. And Adams, yess. Harrison's
> work I don't know--I've read West of Eden.
The Deathworld Trilogy - great mix of humour and scifi
The Stainless Steel Rat series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_Steel_Rat
Also this may help :)
http://www.nndb.com/people/742/000023673/
Julian Hall
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
>> Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
>> <db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>
>>
>> HG Wells: The First Men in the Moon 1901
>> M. P. Shiel: The Purple Cloud 1901
>> G. K. Chesterton: The Napoleon of Notting Hill 1904
>> P. G. Wodehouse: The Swoop 1910
>> J. D. Beresford: The Hampdenshire Wonder 1911
>> Arthur Conan Doyle: The Lost World 1912
>> Rudyard Kipling: As Easy as A.B.C. 1912
>> Guy Thorne: The Cruiser on Wheels 1915
>> John Buchan: Greenmantle 1916
>> JM Barrie: Dear Brutus 1917
>> Rose Macaulay: What Not 1918
>> David Lindsay: A Voyage to Arcturus 1920
>> George Bernard Shaw: Back to Methuselah 1921
>> Lord Dunsany: The King of Elfland's Daughter 1924
>> Charlotte Haldane: Man's World 1926
>> Edgar Wallace: The Day of the Uniting 1926
>> Virginia Woolf: Orlando 1928
>> Olaf Stapledon: Last and First Men 1930
>> Aldous Huxley: Brave New World 1932
>> Olaf Stapledon: Odd John 1935
>> John Wyndham: The Secret People 1935
>> HG Wells/Alexander Korda: Things to Come 1935
>> CS Lewis: Out of the Silent Planet 1938
>> Arthur C. Clarke: Against the Fall of Night 1948
>> George Orwell: 1984 1949
>> Robert Graves: Seven Days in New Crete 1949
>> CS Lewis: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe 1950
>>
>> Brits from 1900-1950
>>
>> Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any essential
>> reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of subjects and
>> ideologies.
>>
>
> You missed JRR Tolkien: The Hobbit 1937
>
> Pudde.
And The Lord Of The Rings 1937-49 pub 1954-55
Julian Hall
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
>> Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
>> <db2qs3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>>>
>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>
>>
> <snip>
>> Brits from 1900-1950
>>
>> Hope that's a useful start. I don't think I've missed out any
>> essential reads, and I've tried to get a reasonable range of
>> subjects and ideologies.
>
> Wow, thank you, that's the sort of thing I need.
>
> Now, what exam question should I ask myself?
How about a study of how real world events have shaped / driven the
direction of scifi/fantasy. Someone else mentioned Nazism. What effect
did the events of the world wars have on writing?
Maybe a comparison of say, how the science of science fiction has changed
as we make new discoveries?
Were there any common themes the writers followed in their works? Maybe
discuss why they chose disparate views, such as 'The world will be a
better place' v 'oh no it won't!'
Just a couple of ideas :)
Julian Hall
>
> Mike Stevens wrote:
>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>> > Anastasia wrote:
>> >
>> >> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>> >> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole
>> >> century or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I
>> >> welcome suggestions. But right now I think British & American, 1900(ish)
>> >> to1950(ish). I'd
>> >> love to do late-20th, but I fear I don't know it well enough.
>> > H.G.Wells and Tolkien should be in there, Asimov, Clark and Heinlein
>> > are also "safe" authors.
>>
>> But be careful of dates. The best of HG Wells dates from before 1900.
>>
>>
>
> Darn, was going to suggest Ray Bradbury, but most of his are post 1950.
>
> Hazel
anyone mentioned HP Lovecraft?
Julian Hall
> Richard Adams wrote:
>>
>> Something you may wish to add to your Listening List:
>>
>> <http://www.archive.org/details/Dimension-X>
>>
>
> Thanks.
>
> I just found a source for free audiobooks of public domain books.
>
> http://manybooks.net/collections/audiobook_links.php
>
> I can't vouch for the quality yet, I'm still downloading--Frankenstein,
> Dracula, Jekyll & Hyde--and will listen to them on my way to and from school
> for the next few weeks.
>
> Unless they're bad, then I won't.
Try this one too:
http://www.audiobooksforfree.com/
Anastasia
> How about a study of how real world events have shaped / driven the
> direction of scifi/fantasy. Someone else mentioned Nazism. What
> effect did the events of the world wars have on writing?
>
> Maybe a comparison of say, how the science of science fiction has
> changed as we make new discoveries?
Neither of those is something I care to take a test on. I don't know the sf
well enough, and they both seem easy answers that would require enormous
background outside the time period covered by the exam. I'd have to know the
entire century upside down and inside out.
Maybe doable, but not by me.
> Were there any common themes the writers followed in their works?
> Maybe discuss why they chose disparate views, such as 'The world
> will be a better place' v 'oh no it won't!'
That one comes down in the end to "some of 'em were pessimists, and some
were optimists."
The Stainless Steel Cat
Julian Hall <li...@removethisbit.kaotic.co.uk> wrote:
>The Stainless Steel Rat series:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_Steel_Rat
*I* should have thought of that!
As Jack O'Neill would say, "Doh!"
Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
"Society had more rats when the rules were looser, just as the old wooden
buildings had more rats than the concrete buildings that came later [...]
Now that society is all ferroconcrete and stainless steel there are fewer
gaps between the joints and it takes a smart rat to find them. A stainless
steel rat is right at home in this environment."
Orjan Westin
> On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:28:40 +0200, tamara wrote:
>
>> Another author who started writing only in 1950, but I think would
>> also be a good addition is Philip K. Dick. He's written too many
>> good books to recommend any specific one,
>
> Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?
>
> aka the book Bladerunner was based on.
Myeah, I'd rank "Man in the High Castle" above that.
Orjan Westin
> Anastasia wrote:
>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>
>>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>>
>> This is what it's looking like.
>>
>> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>>
>> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>>
>> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
>
> I'm starting to look around. I wanted humor, but:
>
> Brave New World
Oh, but that is funny!
> Animal Farm
So is that.
> Nineteen Eighty-four
But that isn't, much. It was, when I read it (1983), but it's becoming
increasingly less so.
> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly
> funny. When I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either,
> although looking back I'd say it probably is.
I'd say it is, but it's a lot more satirical now than it was when it was
written, simply because then you could only see the seeds he extrapolated
from (which is why it was SF then, but might not be now), whereas you can
recognise a lot more of it now.
Orjan Westin
> Orjan Westin wrote:
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>>
>>>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>>>
>>> This is what it's looking like.
>>>
>>> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>>>
>>> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>>>
>>> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
>>
>> Karel Capek, Stanislaw Lem, and Pavel Kohout for starters.
>
> Okay, got specific works in mind? This must above all be doable. I
> read fast and satire is my home turf, but I need a stack of books
> measured in pounds, not tons. :-)
If you're not doing central/eastern Europeans they don't qualify,
unfortunately. A lot of the classic SF from that area is both bitingly
satirical and very funny.
I wish you could put Capek in at least, either with "R.U.R" (which coined
the SF term robot) or "The Salamander War". Both scathingly satirical and
funny.
From Lem I'd probably pick "The Star Diaries", as a piss-take on both SF and
the kind of naive optimism you often found in it in the golden age. Despite
being short, it says a lot of modern society between the lines, and it's not
very gentle.
The only book by Kohout I've read, and which made me put him in the list, is
unfortunately not translated to English I find now that I'm looking for it.
>> Heinlein, too. And Douglas Adams and Harry Harrison.
>
> Mmm, I think Starship Troopers might be satire.
Yes, partly, but not that funny. SIASL is both funnier and more explicitly
satire, I think, and given it's influence I think you'd have a good reason
to leave it out.
> And Adams, yess.
> Harrison's work I don't know--I've read West of Eden.
Not one of his funnier, but well executed and with an interesting premise.
If you're going to do Starship Troopers, you can't really lave out
Harrison's "Bill, the Galactic Hero".
>> Diana Wynne Jones.
>
> I have only read the Chrestomanci series and The Tough Guide to
> Fantasyland, but for various reasosn I would like for her to be on
> the exam. Are there a few specific works you'd term satire?
I guess it depends how broad your brush is... TTGtF is definitely satire,
albeit of a genre rather than society, but if you liked that you should try
"Dark Lodr of Derkholm" and its sequel "Year of the Griffin", which also
have a lot of fun with racial tension and academics.
>> Asimov wrote both humour and social conscience satire, but not at
>> the same time.
>
> Would you care to elaborate?
Asimov was generally funnier the shorter the story was, IMO. A lot of his
shorts - both robots and Azazel and others - are only meant to be funny, and
he does a decent of it in general. He was a master of the twist ending.
His satirical stories were also short, but tended to a more poignant tone,
and his satire is rarely in-your-face. But just take a look at the
frankenstein complex people have of robots, and consider the attitude
towards jews recently displayed in the world when they were written.
Brilliant, useful, but not like us and therefore dangerous, or the
mccarthyism of "The Martian Way".
Just to add to your list, you might also want to consider Mark Twain and
Erwin Abbot, although they might be a bit early.
Nigel Stapley
>
> anyone mentioned HP Lovecraft?
It's "Heinz Lovecraft" now, and they're moving production to NL...
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
Lesley Weston
house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 1:24 PM:
> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>
>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>
> This is what it's looking like.
>
> So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
>
> This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
>
> But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
Most of it, in SF anyway. Harry Harrison (especially "Bill the Galactic
Hero" and the "Stainless Steel Cat" series), Pohl and Kornbluth, Kurt
Vonnegut for sure, some of RAH (the earlier, funny ones), and many more.
Satire seems to be built into SF. In Fantasy, apart from the obvious etc.,
there's Tom Holt for humour but perhaps not satire, Jasper Fforde and no
doubt many others again, though I get the impression that Fantasy tends to
take itself more seriously than SF does. So it's still a very large field
you've imposed on yourself.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Lesley Weston
lu...@nofreelunch.us wrote on 04/09/2006 2:05 PM:
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 20:49:49 GMT, in alt.fan.pratchett
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> <C121DFE6.4DE9A%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>> in article C1217810...@192.168.0.2, The Stainless Steel Cat at
>> stee...@atuin.demon.co.uk wrote on 03/09/2006 10:28 PM:
>>
>>> In article <nuqrs3x...@news.gkhs.net>,
>>> "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anastasia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So...what should I put on the reading list?
>>>>
>>>> I've just had this from someone I consider an expert:
>>>>
>>>> You can't do <what I suggested, 1900-1950>. The period up tp 1929 has big
>>>> names. The period after about 1940 has big names.
>>>>
>>>> The period in between is a mass of hack writers who wrote in most genres.
>>>> Many of them good but with the exceptionn of Burroughs and Doc Smith, not
>>>> household names.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Further, as much as SF writers are *ever* household names, many of those
>>> hack writers publishing in the pulp SF mags would have been just as well
>>> known at the time as Burroughs and Smith.
>>
>> Kurt Vonnegut's character, the SF writer Kilgore Trout would be relevant
>> here. Although he is very much The Real Thing, his work can be found only at
>> dingy little stores whose main trade is in porn.
>
> _Venus on the Half-Shell_ wasn't porn.
You mean the Boticelli? No, it's not porn, it's a very beautiful painting.
Otherwise, I'm not sure what you do mean.
Lesley Weston
house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 3:07 PM:
<snip>
> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
> I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
> I'd say it probably is.
>
> Comments?
If it is humour at all, it's really dark humour. I suppose the bits like
Victory cigarettes having to be held horizontal while you light them or the
names of the Ministries might qualify. As to satire - doesn't satire have to
be funny by definition? Just writing a Dystopia doesn't count, I would have
thought.
Diane L
> in article 2mkus3x...@news.gkhs.net, Anastasia at
> house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 3:07 PM:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly
>> funny. When I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either,
>> although looking back I'd say it probably is.
>>
>> Comments?
>
> If it is humour at all, it's really dark humour. I suppose the bits
> like Victory cigarettes having to be held horizontal while you light
> them or the names of the Ministries might qualify. As to satire -
> doesn't satire have to be funny by definition? Just writing a
> Dystopia doesn't count, I would have thought.
Someone on afp (Sherilyn?) once said that the last line of Nineteen
Eighty Four was really funny[1]. I can see a twisted humour in it, but
'really funny' doesn't work for me.
s
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e
r
s
f
o
r
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i
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'
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u
s
The last line (iirc, and I haven't checked) is "He loved Big Brother" and
it's previously established that 'they' wait until you love BB before they
kill you. That's the joke, afaict.
Diane L.
Anastasia
> house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 1:24 PM:
>
>> Pudde Fjord wrote:
>>
>>> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
>So it's still a very large field you've
> imposed on yourself.
That's why I'm trying to narrow it. It looks like I can do that by making it
just British authors.
Terry Pratchett
?
Diana Wynne Jones
TTGtF
Dark Lord of Derkholm
Year of the Griffin (racial tension and academics)
P. G. Wodehouse
The Swoop (Apparently the first published parody of fantasy.)
Douglas Adams
?
Aldous Huxley
Brave New World
George Orwell
Animal Farm
Okay, important bit: can we justify putting Gaiman on the list apart from as
co-author of Good Omens?
And, I'll switch tags now because it's time to entertain the notion of which
Pratchett novels.
Eric Jarvis
<k2v0t3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>
> Okay, important bit: can we justify putting Gaiman on the list apart from as
> co-author of Good Omens?
>
I don't think you can as yet. At least not if the focus is on humour and
satire. Atleast not without broadening the field far too widely.
I'd add.
Edmund Cooper: Kronk
TJ Bass: The Godwhale
Alan Moore: DR and Quinch
The first two being relatively obscure but excellent examples of two
common themes, the latter because it's precisely the worst possible
example to put in front of students.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Lesley Weston
house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 3:24 PM:
<snip>
> I would like to do world lit, but I should do British if possible. American
> and British, maybe
I must have missed the British preference. In that case: Lord Dunsany, Roald
Dahl, Saki, H.G. Wells, Brian Aldiss, a few Kingsley Amis books. KA also
wrote a comprehensive guide to SF so far in 1961, "New Maps of Hell".
Lesley Weston
wrote on 05/09/2006 4:32 AM:
<snip>
> I'm going to add A Canticle for Leibowitz again, even though it's not
> too humoristic.
Sure it is! Monks diligently decorating their texts with beautiful
illustrations, the texts being manuals for high-tech stuff. If that's not
satire, I don't know what is.
Lesley Weston
Hall at li...@removethisbit.kaotic.co.uk wrote on 05/09/2006 7:31 AM:
> On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:28:40 +0200, tamara wrote:
>
>> Anastasia wrote:
>>> Well, I've come to afp often enough for "help with homework." Here's your
>>> chance to give it back.
>>>
>>> I need to compile a reading list for my PhD exam in 20th Century SF &
>>> Fantasy. Might be just British, might be British & American. Whole century
>>> or the first half....whatever makes the most sense. I welcome suggestions.
>>
>> Another author who started writing only in 1950, but I think would also
>> be a good addition is Philip K. Dick. He's written too many good books
>> to recommend any specific one,
>
> Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?
>
> aka the book Bladerunner was based on.
And "Bladerunner" itself, by Alan Nourse.
Richard Adams
Good stuff, but not quite early 20th century. Lefts not age
Anastasia
> in article 2mkus3x...@news.gkhs.net, Anastasia at
> house_d...@yahoo.com wrote on 04/09/2006 3:07 PM:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly
>> funny. When I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either,
>> although looking back I'd say it probably is.
>>
>> Comments?
>
> If it is humour at all, it's really dark humour. I suppose the bits
> like Victory cigarettes having to be held horizontal while you
> light them or the names of the Ministries might qualify. As to
> satire - doesn't satire have to be funny by definition? Just
> writing a Dystopia doesn't count, I would have thought.
Well, the type of humor varies widely.
There's Juvenalian satire (vicious) and Horatian satire (gentle). There's an
essay about that somewhere on L-Space...
Anastasia
> Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
> <k2v0t3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
>>
>> Okay, important bit: can we justify putting Gaiman on the list
>> apart from as co-author of Good Omens?
>>
>
> I don't think you can as yet. At least not if the focus is on
> humour and satire. Atleast not without broadening the field far too
> widely.
>
> I'd add.
>
> Edmund Cooper: Kronk
>
> TJ Bass: The Godwhale
>
> Alan Moore: DR and Quinch
>
But if I'm going to add, I want to add women. The list is exclusively male,
except for DWJ.
Lesley Weston
nos...@cunobaros.com wrote on 05/09/2006 10:08 AM:
> Anastasia wrote:
<snip>
>> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly
>> funny. When I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either,
>> although looking back I'd say it probably is.
>
> I'd say it is, but it's a lot more satirical now than it was when it was
> written, simply because then you could only see the seeds he extrapolated
> from (which is why it was SF then, but might not be now), whereas you can
> recognise a lot more of it now.
I think the reverse is true. In 1948, the world was a very dark place.
People were still realising just what the Nazis had done, and what the Good
Guys had also done. The iron curtain was getting nasty and Stalin even
nastier, many people even in civilised countries were hungry and long-term
malnourished, employees were (almost) literally wage-slaves, there were far
fewer laws to protect consumers and control the power-hungry, and so on and
so on.
Now, there are still wars - but there always have been and probably
always will be. For the people not in the countries where the wars are
happening, the things above are no longer true, and even in Iraq and
Afghanistan and all the other war-zones the privations are far less
horrifying than what was still happening in 1948. Parts of Africa still seem
to be in 1948 mode, but not our own civilisation.
Richard Bos
> Anastasia wrote:
> > Pudde Fjord wrote:
> >
> >> Humor and satire in SF and Fantasy.
> >
> > This is what it's looking like.
> >
> > So apart from the obvious late-20th British satirist, who else?
> >
> > This is before I even try to assemble a list, mind you.
> >
> > But stuff with some social conscience. Swift is too early.
>
> I'm starting to look around. I wanted humor, but:
>
> Brave New World
> Animal Farm
Oh, but that one _is_ funny. Wryly funny, but funny.
> Nineteen Eighty-four (interesting aside on this was given me by a friend)
>
> "do remind them that Orwell specifically said it was to be called Nineteen
> Eighty-Four, and NOT 1984!"
Your friend can tell that to Signet, then. "NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR" on the
spine, "GEORGE <new line> 1984 <new line> ORWELL" on the front cover.
> I've read Nineteen Eighty-Four, and didn't find it particularly funny. When
> I read it, I wouldn't have called it satire, either, although looking back
> I'd say it probably is.
It is satire, all right, but it isn't comic satire. It's a biting,
cynical satire, made all the more cynical today for coming closer (too
fscking close) to reality.
But if you're going for humorous fantasy, I must repeat my suggestion of
Leiber. And if you want the women's angle, I take back "Swords against
Death", and suggest "Swords and Deviltry" instead, because of the way
Leiber introduces a strong, self-willed female character in one of the
introductory stories, only to get rid of her in "Ill Met in Lankhmar".
Richard
Eric Jarvis
<pf31t3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
> > Anastasia house_d...@yahoo.com wrote in
> > <k2v0t3x...@news.gkhs.net>:
> >>
> >> Okay, important bit: can we justify putting Gaiman on the list
> >> apart from as co-author of Good Omens?
> >>
> >
> > I don't think you can as yet. At least not if the focus is on
> > humour and satire. Atleast not without broadening the field far too
> > widely.
> >
> > I'd add.
> >
> > Edmund Cooper: Kronk
> >
> > TJ Bass: The Godwhale
> >
> > Alan Moore: DR and Quinch
>
> But if I'm going to add, I want to add women. The list is exclusively male,
> except for DWJ.
>
I guess that leaves Charlotte Haldane's Man's World and possible Grunts!
by Mary Gentle, though the latter may be a somewhat controversial choice
[1].
Doris Lessing's sf novels are satire of a sort, but not to everyone's
taste. If you latch on to her sense of humour they are excellent however.
[1] Pass me another exam question Sergeant, this one's obscene.
Anastasia
> Anastasia wrote:
<snip>
>> Okay, important bit: can we justify putting Gaiman on the list
>> apart from as co-author of Good Omens?
>>
>> And, I'll switch tags now because it's time to entertain the
>> notion of which Pratchett novels.
>>
>
> Good stuff, but not quite early 20th century. Lefts not age
<sigh>
Yes, perhaps I should have changed that too, but it hasn't been "early" for
a few posts now. It's been mostly late, and centered on satire.
What does "Lefts not age" mean?
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: "Anastasia" <house_d...@yahoo.com>
> But if I'm going to add, I want to add women. The list is
> exclusively male, except for DWJ.
Mary Gentle's Grunts? I *didn't* find it funny, which possibly
suggests a different style of humour than most of the books on
your list...
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The need to compile lists is a personality disorder,
as is the need to assert the superiority of some things
over other things."
-Jeremy Hardy