[A] "Monstrous Regiment" annotations
Edmund R. Schluessel
flavors except pistachio, and can be reached at ers ATATATATAT
gwu.edu.
ANNOTATIONS for MONSTROUS REGIMENT by Terry Pratchett
Author: Edmund Schluessel, ers WHOSEDOMAINISAT gwu.edu
Version: 1.0, 20 March 2004
Text: Monstrous Regiment, Harper-Collins 1st ed. Hardcover, ISBN
0-06-001315-X
For purposes of synchronization, this text begins on page 1 and ends
on page 353
p. 1 "She didn't even need to bind up her bosom"
The relative bosominess of Pratchett's heroines has been brought up
before, most recently in TT. Polly's androgynous figure is, of course,
an aid to her scheme. See also note to p. 58
p. 1 "In Borogravia"
The name "Borogravia" invokes the word "borogove" (often misprinted as
"borogrove") from the poem "Jabberwocky" in Lewis Carroll's Through
the Looking Glass. Carroll described borogoves as an extinct variety
of wingless parrot with an upturned beak, which nested on sundials and
lived on veal. Pratchett's hatred of the Alice books has been
previously noted (see
http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/apf/words-from-the-master.html)
p. 2: "The town had no shortage of widows"
Throughout the book we see indications that the male population of
Borogravia has been devastated by wars.
p. 4 "Tübz"; "Plün"
Although most of the characters in the book have "English"-sounding
names, most of the place names are "German"-sounding or
"Slavic"-sounding. A possible influence on the geographic names is the
series of conflicts in southeastern Europe resulting from the
dissolution of Yugoslavia, which began around 1991 and were ongoing
during the book's writing. See also note for p. 203.
p. 5 "if you had a billygoat."
In the traditional story "The Three Billy Goats Gruff", a bridge is
guarded by a troll who eats all who attempt to cross. A large
billygoat ploughs into the troll, knocking it off the bridge and
killing it.
p. 5 "There was always a war."
Historically, it is possible for a state to constantly be at war for
quite a long time and survive; the Roman empire was at peace
everywhere only for brief periods during its existence. The rise of
conscript armies in the 1860's made such continuous warfare much more
expensive. However, note that Borogravia's army is all-volunteer
(albeit still very large).
p. 5 "peace-loving country"
Compare notes for Jingo, title.
p. 6 "The World Turned....Polly Oliver"
Many, if not all, of the songs listed here are actual folk songs.
Tradition says "The World Turned Upside-Down" was played at
Cornwallis's surrender to Washington during the American Revolution.
"Polly Oliver" tells the story of a woman who dresses as a male
soldier in order to follow her true love into the army. See Appendix
for lyrics.
p. 7 "the spanking red uniform"
The entire Borogravian army wears a standard red uniform. Both the
uniform and its standardization point to the Borogravian army being
modeled on the English (later British) army, whose soldiers were clad
in red for nearly 250 years from 1645 onward. Among many other armies,
even those of major military powers, uniforms didn't truly become
"uniform" until as late as the First World War.
The presence of an army-wide uniform also implies a higher degree of
discipline and coordination within the army. The Borogravian army is,
in its structure, much more modern than its contemporaries'; recall
from "Jingo" that the raising of regiments in Ankh-Morpork, for
example, is the responsibility of the lords, rather than of the
national government. Privately-raised regiments remained significant
in military conflicts as late as the Spanish-American war (1898).
p. 9 "a bit short of shillings"
In the English army, taking the King's or Queen's Shilling was a
ritual of induction; upon taking a shilling coin as enlistment bounty,
the inductee was legally considered a soldier.
p. 10 "Awake…"
The Borogravian national anthem does not parody any specific national
anthem. However, the line "Awake, ye sons of the Motherland" echoes
France's "Alons, enfants de la Patrie" ("come, children of the
Fatherland"); while "Taste no more the wine of sour apples" may refer
to Slovenia's "Spet trte so rodile, prijat'lji, vince nam sladko, ki
nam oživlja žile" ("The vintage, friends, is over, And here sweet wine
makes, once again, Sad eyes and hearts recover"). "Frustrate the
endless wiles of our enemies" echoes the second verse of Britain's
"God Save the Queen":
"O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks;
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all."
For what it's worth, very few national anthems start with "awake",
although many begin with "arise". David Kendall's National Anthem
Reference Page (http://david.national-anthems.net/index.html) was used
as a source for this note.
p. 10 "a great big fish!"
Since Borogravia is landlocked, one is inclined to wonder why a "great
big fish" would be a common metaphor; see note for p. 203.
p. 11 "Two thousand three hundred miles"
Referring to the Discworld Mapp and noting that Kneck Keep is on a
river indicates that the Keep is located in one of two locations. The
first location, and more likely in this annotator's opinion, is:
horizontal reference approx. 9 ¾, vertical reference approx. 5 ½; on
the hubwardmost river entering the large unnamed lake; directly down
from the letter u in "Vieux River". This location makes the Kneck
river the river whose source is the rimwardmost of the three which
join to enter the unnamed lake. The second location is on the
rimwardmost river entering the large unnamed lake.
If the former location is roughly correct, then Borogravia's territory
is, roughly, the six mountains rimwards of the castle labeled
"Überwald" and the hubward floodplain of the river; Zlobenia is the
rimward portion of the same floodplain.
p. 14 "The annual scrap with Zlobenia"
The Greek city-state of Sparta regularly declared war on its subject
peoples, the Helots, in order to stay in shape.
p. 14 "the Book of Nuggan"
We have seen Nuggan before, in TLH. He is therein depicted as short
and irritable; perhaps his stature indicates his demise is already
underway.
p. 16 "The official story is that she's in mourning"
During the period after the death of Prince Albert, while Queen
Victoria was in seclusion, Britain embarked on a large number of
more-or-less stupid wars, mostly in consolidation of its colonial
empire.
p. 17 "they pray to her?....Celestial intermediaries."
We have seen royalty treated as divine in Pyramids. The Duchess's role
as head of the church also echoes the English monarch's titular
leadership of the Church of England, and praying to her for
intercession resembles the Roman Catholic near-fixation on prayers to
the Virgin Mary.
p. 17 "he's banned the religion"
Although Heinrich emulates Ankh-Morpork, we know that both Vetinari
and the priests of A-M are strongly against the banning of any
particular religion.
p. 19 "They're cutting the continent in half"
The location of Borogravia neatly falls across Clacks lines between
the A-M and Genua.
p. 20 "for almost two years"
This puts Maladict's joining of the temperance league about two years
after its first appearance in T5E.
p. 20 "you can call me Maladict"
The name is both a play on the name "Benedict" and on the word
"maledict", which Webster's defines as a accursedness or the act of
bringing a curse.
p. 22 "I, of course, don't drink…horse piss"
This line refers to the 1931 film of "Dracula" starring Bela Lugosi:
"I never drink…wine".
p. 23 "It doesn't mean I can't kick you in the fork…"
Men being kicked in the genitals will become as dominant a theme as
the existence of those genitals.
p. 25 "Don't ask, don't tell"
During the early 1990's, the United States military reexamined its
long-standing prohibition on homosexuals serving in the armed forces.
Social conservatives strongly opposed the change in policy; the
compromise eventually reached, which persists to this writing (2004),
was labeled "don't ask, don't tell"; the administration of the
military was not allowed to ask a recruit or soldier his or her sexual
orientation, but revealing it to be homosexual (or bisexual) was still
grounds for discharge. The compromise was widely ridiculed by all
sides, which in its way makes it a good compromise.
p. 26-27 "eye-stining vinegar....Brain stops working"
Carborundum's drink contains silver and copper metal in some kind of
acidic electrolyte. In such conditions, an electric current can be
established between the silver and copper, acting as a primitive
battery known as a "voltaic pile". Such an arrangement can be used as
a power source for electrical equipment.
p. 29 "used a great many exclamation points"
Compare Maskerade's assertion that the use of three exclamation points
is the sign of a deranged mind; and also Vimes's question on p. 11 of
whether an entire country can be insane.
p. 29 "Father Jupe"
A running joke in MR is that famous officers lend their names to
articles of clothing. "Jupe" is French for "skirt"; is Father Jupe a
former military hero?
p. 32 "Well, it won't be in front of me for long."
A quotation often attributed to George Bernard Shaw, although it may
have originated with composer Max Reger: "I am in the smallest room of
the house. I have your review in front of me. Soon it will be behind
me."
p. 32 "Hand off…well, you lot" "Hands off cocks and up with socks" is
a traditional military wake-up shout.
p. 33 "Private Parts"
The English have an occasional habit of pronouncing the letter e as if
it were a long a. "Perks" should therefore be pronounced "pahks".
Don't blame me, it's their weird language.
p. 34 "big and red-haired"
Compare the note for p. 109.
p. 36 "Igor had obtained a sausage....the sausage moved"
Igor is using electricity to reanimate dead matter. Does this instance
presage the coming of electricity to the Discworld in a future book?
p. 40 "fnord"
Possibly a reference to the religion of discordianism, or to the
Illuminatus trilogy which has strong discordian influences; "fnord" is
a word with no definition.
p. 43 "What We Are Fighting For"
During World War II, director Frank Capra directed a series of six
propaganda films for the United States entitled "Why We Fight", which
portrayed the war as a struggle between freedom and slavery.
p. 45 "Ankh-Morpork is a godawful city…they are a degraded people"
Note that most of what Strappi says about Ankh-Morpork is, in fact,
accurate.
p. 48 "On the noisy, frantic, confusing battlefield…"
During the Vietnam War, enthusiastic, pro-war volunteers were often
put in command of reluctant, anti-war draftees. Several of these
commanders were "fragged" - killed by fragmentation grenades from
their own troops.
p. 49 "Polly had asked why there were pictures of the Duchess
everywhere"
In many Islamic countries, a religious restriction on images of the
human form is juxtaposed with pictures of the country's leader being
displayed on posters and billboards everywhere.
p. 56 "So that she could see the fragment of paper" Not only can Polly
read, but Polly can read the language of Ankh-Morpork.
p. 58 "One sock, and you could make Strappi"
Strappi's masculinity - the size of his socks - is a function of his
overall worth as human. Contrast note 1 for page 1. Does the size of
Polly's bosom reflect her worth as a human?
p. 61 "most of you will almost certainly be pikemen"
Recall the pikemen & halberdiers seen in NW; pikes are used
defensively against cavalry charges, or offensively against infantry
in the following fashion: a rank of pikemen advances on a rank of
enemy infantry, pikes extended forward, and attempts to jab the enemy
with their pikes; then draws swords and engages as standard infantry
while the rank behind them advances with their pikes. Thanks to hikari
for explanation of basic pike tactics. http://www.sealedknot.org.uk
has images of recreationists using pikes in action. The Borogravian
pike may be the "tool formerly used for lifting beets" referred to in
the National Anthem. http://www.heraldica.org/topics/armes_dhast.htm
(in French) depicts many kinds of pikes.
p. 62 "batman"
The use of the term "batman" for a camp orderly further reinforces the
argument that the Borogravian army is based on the British army.
p. 67 "You'd probably go blind"
The story of the Donner Party, one of the most notorious incidents of
cannibalism in United States history, includes the aside that the meat
of the dead party members was carefully labeled, so that people
wouldn't eat their own relatives.
p. 68 "There's one in every battalion"
Political officers were an institution of the Soviet Red Army,
although they have also appeared elsewhere; their job was to ensure
the loyalty and adherence to party doctrine of military units. Adolf
Hitler's first experience with politics came when he volunteered to be
a political officer for his demobilized battalion after the 1918
Armistice (source: Ian Kershaw, Hitler, vol. 1: Hubris). The fact that
every battalion has a political among it is the result of many
possible factors: Central command sensing the possibility of mutiny;
few casualties among politicals; or heavy casualties in the bulk of
the army.
p. 69 "The Craft of War"
Sun Tzu's The Art Of War is a standard text of military philosphy.
p. 73 "Roundheels Molly"
In addition to the camp-follower prostitutes we see later in the book,
World War II lore also noted the existence of "V-girls" (for "victory
girls") who had sex with soldiers freely for reasons of patriotism.
p. 73 "The Zlobenian troops get one pound of beef…"
Soldiers have always complained about rations, but often there is
immense disparity between two sides' food, and the disparity may have
little to do with which side is winning. During the Second World War,
German ration packs were particularly prized by Allied soldiers; while
the Allies' food rations had been preserved and dehydrated in order to
ensure survival during transatlantic shipment, Germany's supply lines
were much shorter and contained better meat, fresher vegetables, and
even chocolate. (Source: Bill Mauldin, Up Front)
http://www.qmfound.com/army_rations_historical_background.htm contains
more information than anyone could ever want to know about US army
field rations; it indicates that a "pound of beef" is not an
unreasonable expectation, if you're not too picky about the quality of
the beef.
p. 76 "gawains"
Presumably, officers drawn from the noble families of Borogravia.
Compare Lord Rust.
p. 79 "the Itch"
Possibly lice or scabies. Despite the abundance of washerwomen, these
blankets are rarely washed.
p. 79 "banknote"
Borogravia uses paper currency, while A-M still uses precious-metal
coins. In a world where coin is the standard of exchange, a country
operating on paper currency not backed by precious metal ("fiat
money", in economic parlance) might see its economy become isolated
from the rest of the world. The very fact that paper money is being
issued indicates that Borogravia may have been strapped for hard cash
for some time.
p. 79 "eight years"
In the US army, automatic promotion for 2nd lieutenants occurs every
two years. Furthermore, heavy casualties during wartime can
dramatically speed promotions, particularly among lieutenants and
captains.
p. 80 "One shilling extra 'per diem'"
Using this information and UK army pay scales, one can estimate that a
2nd lieutenant in the Borogravian army receives approximately 1807
shillings per year as payment, compared to 2012 shillings per year for
a 1st lieutenant; and that there are approximately 11.16 Borogravian
shillings to one UK pound. Working this out may be the single geekiest
thing I have ever done.
p. 81 "If there was no male to inherit"
The severe depopulation of available males in Borogravia as a result
of the war is putting unacknowledged strain on Borogravian society.
The massive depopulation of young men is a common result of
large-scale war. In the United Kingdom after World War I, the loss
helped the suffragette movement; in Russia after World War II,
however, although female ownership became much more commonplace, the
status of women became diminished as women competed for fewer
available men by tarting up.
p. 81 "Cousin Vlopo"
This unseen character is one of very few who bears a
"highland"-sounding name. See note for p. 203.
p. 83 "She wrenched the shako off her head…Now she wasn't a soldier"
Here we have a variation on one of Pratchett's favorite ideas: a
wizard is a man wearing a pointy hat; therefore, a man not wearing a
pointy hat cannot be a wizard.
p. 84 "They wore dark blue uniforms"
The Zlobenian cavalry uniforms hearken those of Prussia and of the
United States during the late 19th century.
p. 86 "We have met the enemy and he is nice"
"We have met the enemy and they are ours-- two ships, two brigs, one
schooner and one sloop", Oliver Hazard Perry, Letter to General
Harrison. Peary, of the United States, had just defeated the British
at the battle of Lake Erie in a decisive victory.
p. 90 "You bloody beateater"
Borogravians and Zlobenians derisively refer to each other as
"beateater" and "swede-eater".
p. 97 "'Oh damn', said Maladict"
Maladict curses; a Tom Swiftie.
p. 98 "My thecond couthing Igor in Ankh-Morpork"
Quite possibly this is the Watch's Igor; see T5E, TT, NW.
p. 102 "You ain't even a proper private"
None of the squad have the rank of private first class (PFC), which
bears one stripe.
p. 103 "Road to perdition"
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an
ideal." - Albert Einstein
p. 104 "The candle had been tilted…cans of lamp oil"
This passage wass written in light of tightening anti-terrorism
legislation throughout the world, legislation which in Britain forbade
the distribution of knowledge which might conceivably aid terrorists.
p. 106 "the one we paid a crate of whiskey for"
Vimes promised Buggy a new bird in the opening scenes of NW
p. 107 "not actually waylaying field reports"
During the 1991 Persian Gulf War, both sides relied on television news
for information; private journalists were often better-informed than
military intelligence.
p. 109 "people with red hair"
Recall the description of Tonker from page 34.
p. 115 "A cup of hot sweet tea is the soldier's friend"
Once again the Borogravian army is shown to be basically British;
other European armies get coffee. The British army's medical corps,
indeed, had a charming habit of giving "a cup of tea and a grain of
morphine" to every incoming wounded soldier - including those with gut
wounds.
p. 118 "The edge glowed"
Compare the description of Death's scythe, sharpened on sunlight, from
Reaper Man.
p. 118 "Pas devant les soldat jeune"
Incorrect grammar; this should read "les soldats jeunes".
p. 126 "Thalacephalos"
Alexander the Great's steed was "Bucephalos", "ox-head".
p. 129 "using bits of someone who was dead to help three of four other
people…"
As of this writing, most major religions (with Orthodox Judaism and
Shinto being the biggest holdouts) endorse organ donation. However,
many individuals still refuse to donate.
p. 132 "I'm lonesome since I crossed the hill"
From "The Girl I Left Behind Me"; see Appendix
p. 133 "Two miles, sir"
If Clacks towers are spaced an average of two miles apart, then Clacks
firms must employ thousands of people - indeed, the Clacks network
must at this point be, second perhaps only to the Agatean Wall, the
largest single engineering project ever undertaken on the Discworld.
Extending the Clacks network all the way to Agatea may not be an
impractical prospect.
p. 139 "Nothing I do will be held Abominable in the pursuit of my
quest."
Soldiers who went on the Crusades were told that in undertaking the
Crusade they would be absolved of all sins.
p. 140 "I am to take command of the Army"
Jean d'Arc, a.k.a. Joan of Arc or St. Joan, led the French army
against the English while dressed as a man, and believed she heard the
voice of God.
p 143 "dark-green uniform of the First Battalion of the Zlobenian
Fifty-Ninth Bowmen"
Different regiments of the Zlobenian army wear differently-colored
uniforms; see note for p. 7. Dark green uniforms were used by some
Union sharpshooters during the American Civil War.
p. 147 "Jolly Sailor"
The same tobacco seen in WFM
p. 152 "We both lived there"
From the fact that three of the squad are from the same medium-sized
town, it might be deduced (albeit somewhat shakily) that Borogravia is
not that big. Indeed, if the squad begins in the mountains and after
six days of marching is within forty miles of the border, it can be
guessed that the arable land in Borogravia extends only about 200
miles turnwise from the Kneck river.
p. 158 "I need coffee!"
Many US soldiers in Vietnam became addicted to heroin, and fought
either under its influence or in withdrawal from it.
p. 161 "Lord Rust's regiment"
Lord Rust's style of command is described thoroughly in Jingo and NW.
p. 163 "One, Two, Three! What We Are Fighting For!"
Refers to the "I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag" by Country Joe and
the Fish; the song, a strongly anti-war Vietnam protest, was one of
the opening numbers at the Woodstock music festival. See Appendix for
lyrics.
p 171 "Genua and Mouldavia and Ankh-Morpork"
For possible reasons for Genua's involvement, see note for p. 19.
Mouldavia was at war with Borogravia as recently as NW.
p. 173 "our cartoonist Fizz"
The cartoonist Hablot Knight Browne used the pseudonym "Phiz", and
drew copperplate illustrations for many Victorian works, especially
those of Charles Dickens.
p. 174 "there was a beet stuck on the end of it"
See note for p. 61.
p. 174 "Morporkia"
Compare Victorian-era illustrations of Brittania and Columbia,
depictions of state-gods for the United Kingdom and United States,
respectively.
p. 176 "no first use of magic"
The phrase "no first use of nuclear weapons" is a common intermediate
goal for movements seeking nuclear disarmament.
p. 176 "gray code"
A Gray code is a binary algorithm named for their inventor, Bell Labs
engineer Frank Gray; which are used to encode a signal such that a a
missing frame does not result in the corruption of the whole data
stream. Such a code would be useful for a human-run system such as the
Clacks because the operator's missing one pulse would not prevent the
rest of the message from being relayed ungarbled. See
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GrayCode.html.
p. 176 "Oh, it's all very elementary then you have even more -"
Blouse is describing "run length encoding", a simple but primitive
algorithm used, among other things, to compress bitmap images in
Microsoft Windows.
p. 181 "Why This Mad State Must Be Stopped"
In early 2003, the United States of America, allied with the United
Kingdom but counter to the vast majority of world opinion, launched an
unprovoked war with the Republic of Iraq. Much of the language in this
article echoes language used in newspapers in Britain and throughout
the world during the months before the war.
p. 182 "General Tacticus once commanded battalion to dress as spruces"
Compare the closing scene of Shakespeare's "Macbeth", in which "Birnam
Wood is come to Dunsinane" - soldiers disguised as trees successfully
take Macbeth's keep.
p. 183 "bright-red and white show up"
Many of the ideas about practical camouflage in MR contrast with
those seen in NW.
p. 184 "Aerial cavalry"
During the Vietnam War, cavalry was recast as a rapid-reaction force
of light infantry dropped and retrieved via armed helicopters. Compare
the book We Were Soldiers, Once... and Young by Gen. Harold Moore and
Joseph Galloway (and the 2002 movie "We Were Soldiers" based on it).
p. 187 "and almost impossible to bring them back again"
The Watch's Igor offers to bring a fallen Dwarvish Watchman back to
life in NW, but his offer is rejected for religious reasons.
p. 187 "Charlie"
Another Vietnam reference: during the Vietnam War, the Viet Cong were
referred to by the abbreviation "VC", or in radio phonetic alphabet
"Victor Charlie". This was shortened to "Charlie" and the name became
a common slang term for the enemy during the war.
p. 189 "She'd roasted some acorns"
During the American Civil War, the Confederacy was blockaded by the
Union and coffee became almost unobtainable. Soldiers and citizens of
the Confederacy experimented with, among other things, roasted acorns
and roasted chicory as substitutes for the beverage.
p. 197 "You're a hallucination, right?"
Seeing as he's an anthropomorphic personification, do we have any
particular reason to believe that this is not Death?
p. 203 "than any lowlander could pronounce"
There appear to be two distinct populations in Borogravia:
"highlanders", with Slavic/Germanic-sounding names and speaking a
Slavic/Germanic language akin to Überwaldish, and lowlanders, with
English-sounding names and speaking a language that is at least very
similar to Morporkian. However, all place names in Borogravia sound
Slavic/Germanic. It is possible that the lowlanders, at some point in
the past few hundred years, invaded the hubward Kneck river valley and
drove the highlanders into the mountains. If the lowlanders originated
from somewhere closer to the ocean, this may explain why "a great big
fish" is a Borogravian metaphor.
p. 211 "a few weeks stabbing straw men"
In NW Vimes dismisses the straw dummies as nearly useless; this may be
the deeper reason.
p. 217 "A Comedy of Cuckolds"
Shakespeare's "A Comedy of Errors" contains several bawdy female
roles, which would have been played by men.
p. 219 "Auntie Parthenope"
From "parthenos", Greek for Virgin; Auntie Parthenope is a genuine
maiden aunt.
p. 220 "'Tis Pity She's a Tree"
From John Ford's "'Tis a Pity She's a Whore", ca. 1630, another play
with an important, sexually-based female role played by a man.
p. 220 "the regulation one inch"
A popular urban legend states that the expression "rule of thumb"
comes from English common law regarding the diameter of a stick with
which one's wife could be beaten.
http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/rule_of_thumb.html
argues that this is purely myth.
p. 228 "a hurricane"
If the image of a hurricane has persisted in Borogravia, over a
thousand miles from the nearest ocean, this provides further evidence
that lowlanders originated somewhere near the coast.
p. 233 "making some other poor devil die for his"
"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying
for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die
for his country.." - attributed to Gen. George S. Patton
p. 236 "Lart Hubukurk"
The word "lart" originates with the acronym "luser attitude
readjustment tool" and is generally portrayed as a large blunt
instrument used to enact rough justice on clueless customers. See the
Jargon File's entry,
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/L/LART.html The newsgroup
alt.fan.pratchett's overlap with the newsgroup alt.sysadmin.recovery,
in which the term originated, has been noted.
p. 238 "SoLid DoVes"
"Soiled Doves" is a euphemism for prostitutes originating in the
American west during the 19th century.
p. 259 "Motherhood Medal"
The Soviet Union awarded medals for mothers who gave birth to more
than four children, starting in 1944; the program's goal was to
encourage population growth in light of the twenty million Soviets who
had died in the war.
p. 270 "Soldiers of Borogravia"
Pratchett uses half-tone text for the words of the Duchess speaking
through Wazzer. Compare his use of small text for mutters and enormous
text for the voice of Azrael, in this book and Reaper Man
respectively.
p. 278 "Throughout Klatch there are many stories of female warriors"
In 2001 and 2002, the United States embarked on a military adventure
in Afghanistan. The closing stanza of Rudyard Kipling's "The Young
British Soldier" reentered the popular consciousness:
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."
p. 281 "that man has an objectionable bone structure"
Compare the phrenology of Captain Swing in NW.
p. 283 "in Klatch, I think, it means 'I hope your donkey explodes'"
In Arabia, the thumbs-up gesture does mean something like "up yours".
On occupying Iraq, many American and British soldiers were greeted
with crowds flashing thumbs-up symbols, and mistakenly believed them
to be showing approval; see note for p. 181.
p. 296 "kneed Prince Heinrich in the fracas"
Recall from TT that "fracas" is only ever used in newspapers; Maj.
Clogston has apparently read about the incident in the Times.
p. 303 "Let's see how that one plays in Plotz"
The Americanism "Let's see how that one plays in Peoria": "How will it
fare when presented to the sensibilities of the rural population?"
p. 312 "Kopelies"
Greek for "girls"
p. 314 "Much ado, in fact, about nothing"
A Shakespeare play in which women dress as men, and which includes a
character named Benedick. See note for p. 20.
p. 327 "Unorthodox Potato Church"
Probably the same church as Mr. Pin's from TT.
p. 329 "Why did you say you were a cherry pancake?"
John F. Kennedy, speaking in West Berlin, infamously declared "Ich bin
ein Berliner" - "I am a jam donut". A routine on the matter appears in
Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill".
p. 342 "Saw the cavalry break…do me over good and proper"
The "Thin Red Line" comes from Rudyard Kipling's "Tommy":
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer
soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to
roll,
The phrase also lent its name to the title of James Jones' novel (and
the 1998 movie based on it) telling the story of the United States
capture of Guadalcanal during the Second World War. A popular
unofficial slogan of the United States Marine Corps reads: "Travel to
exotic, distant lands, meet exciting, unusual people and kill them".
APPENDIX: SONGS
In general, these lyrics have been obtained from the free Digital
Tradition archive at http://www.mudcat.org.
No copy has yet been found of:
Colonel Crapski
I Wish I'd Never Kissed Her
Plogviehze (roughly translated as: The Sun Has Risen! Lets Make War!)
The song about the milkmaid and the soldier who steals her cheese
after untying her garter
"The World Turned Upside Down"
If buttercups buzz'd after the bee,
If boats were on land, churches on sea,
If ponies rode men and if grass ate the cows,
And cats should be chased into holes by the mouse,
If the mamas sold their babies
To the gypsies for half a crown;
If summer were spring and the other way round,
Then all the world would be upside down.
"The Devil Shall Be My Sergeant" (listed on Digital Tradition as
"Rogue's March")
I left my home and I left my job
Went and joined the army
If I knew then what I know now
I wouldn't have been so barmy.
cho: Poor old soldier, poor old soldier
If I knew then what I know now
I wouldn't have been so barmy.
2. Gave me a gun and a big red coat
Gave me lots of drilling
If I knew then what I know now
I wouldn't have took the shilling.
3. Sent me off on a real old boat
By Christ she was no beauty
Far far across the sea we went
Afore to do my duty
4. Fought the Russians, or was it the French
Really couldn't tell, sir
All I know is they fought so hard
They sent us all to hell, sir.
Chorus:
5. When we got back home again
To desert was my intent, sir
I sold my cot and I sold my coat
And over the wall I went, sir.
Chorus:
6. Went to a tavern and I got drunk
That is where they found me
Back to barracks in chains I was sent
And there they did impound me.
7. Fifty I got for selling me coat
Fifty for me blankets
If ever I 'list for a soldier again
The devil shall be me sergeant.
"Sweet Polly Oliver" (listed as "Polly Oliver" on DT)
One night Polly Oliver lay musing in bed,
A comical fancy came into her head;
"Neither father nor mother shall make me false prove
I'll 'list for a soldier and follow my love."
Early next morning this fair maid arose,
She dressed herself in a suit of men's clothes,
Coat, waistcoat and breeches, and sword by her side
On her father's black gelding like a dragoon she did ride.
She rode till she came to fair London town,
She dismounted her horse at the sign of the crown;
The first that came to her was a man from above,
The next that came down was Polly Oliver's true love.
"Good evening, good evening, kind captain" said she,
"Here's a letter from your true love Polly Oliver," said she.
He opened the letter and a guinea was found,
For him and his companions to drink her health round.
Supper being ended, she held down her head
And called for a candle to light her to bed;
The captain made this reply, "I have a bed at my ease,
You may lie with me, countryman, if you please."
To lie with a captain is a dangerous thing,
I'm a new enlisted soldier to fight for my king;
To fight for my king by sea and by land,
Since you are my captain, I'll be at your command."
Early next morning this fair maid arose,
And dressed herself in her own suit of clothes,
And downstairs she came from her chamber above,
Saying, "Here is Polly Oliver, your own true love."
He at first was surprised, but laughed at the fun,
And then they were married and all things were done;
"If I had laid with you the first night, the fault had been mine,
I hope to please you better, love, for now is the time."
"Johnny Has Gone For a Soldier" (listed on DT as "Shule Agra or Johnny
Has Gone For a Soldier"; a variant is found as "Buttermilk Hill")
With fife and drum he marched away
He would not heed what I did say
He'll not come back for many a day
Johnny has gone for a soldier
Shule shule shule shule agra
Sure a sure and he loves me
When he comes back he'll marry me
Johnny has gone for a soldier
I'll go up on Portland hill
And there I'll sit and cry my fill
And every tear should turn a mill
Johnny has gone for a soldier
I'll sell my rock, I'll sell my reel
I'll sell my flax and spinning wheel
To buy my love a sword of steel
Johnny has gone for a soldier
I'll dye my petticoats crimson red
Through the world I'll beg my bread
I'll find my love alive or dead
Johnny has gone for a soldier
"The Girl I Left Behind Me" (many versions exist)
I'm lonesome since I cross'd the hills,
And o'er the moor that's sedgy;
With heavy thoughts my mind is fill'd,
Since I parted with my Naggy
When e'er I return to view the place,
The tears doth fall and blind me,
When I think on the charming grace
Of the girl I left behind me.
The hours I remember well,
When next to see doth move me,
The burning flames my heart doth tell,
Since first she own'd she lov'd me:
In search of some one fair and gay,
Several doth remind me;
I know my darling loves me well,
Tho' I left her behind me.
The beas shall lavish, mare no store
And the dove become a ranger;
The falling water cease to roar,
Before I'll ever change her:
Each mortal promise faithful made,
By her whose tears doth blind me;
And bless the hours I pass away,
With the girl I left behind me.
My mind her image still retains,
Whether asleep or waking;
I hope to see my dear again,
For her my heart is breaking:
But if e'er I chance to go that way,
And that she has not resign'd me;
I'll reconcile my mind and stay,
With the girl I left behind me.
"I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag"
Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
Cho:
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those reds -
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
Cho
Huh!
Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.
Cho
Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
Cho
Jens Kleine
> I've just finished writing this up. I welcome commentary of all
> flavors except pistachio, and can be reached at ers ATATATATAT
> gwu.edu.
Great piece of work!
Yours, Jens
--
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
advanced weapon training, Detritus style
(Terry Pratchett - Night Watch)
jester
<eschl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>p. 36 "Igor had obtained a sausage....the sausage moved"
>
>Igor is using electricity to reanimate dead matter. Does this instance
>presage the coming of electricity to the Discworld in a future book?
See also Red Dwarf, Series III, Polymorph.
Almost certainly irrelevant to what's going on.
>p. 182 "General Tacticus once commanded battalion to dress as spruces"
>
>Compare the closing scene of Shakespeare's "Macbeth", in which "Birnam
>Wood is come to Dunsinane" - soldiers disguised as trees successfully
>take Macbeth's keep.
Followed shortly by a rather horible pun, where the untidy soldiers are
told to get "spruced up"
--
Andy Brown
Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware
has limitations, software doesn't. It's a real shame that Turing
machines are so poor at I/O.
Cliff
I offer for your consideration a possible annotation to Bradamante:
"I speak of that famed damsel, by whose spear
O'erthrown, King Sacripant on earth was flung;
The worthy sister of the valiant peer,
From Beatrix and good Duke Aymon sprung.
By daring deeds and puissance no less dear
To Charlemagne and France: Since proved among
The first, her prowess, tried by many a test,
Equal to good Rinaldo's shone confessed."
(http://www.bulfinch.org/furioso/canto02.html#XXXI)
What a female Knight?
Point is that women, not hiding their sex, were acceptable fictional
fighters in the time of the oral traditions of Charlemagne, but not so
acceptable when the legends were written down by Orlando Furioso et al., and
still less acceptable (I think) to Bullfinch. They make her do it for love,
a motivation that doesn't fit her deeds at all.
She chops up the bad guys as well as the males. Charlemagne's palladins
know she is a woman, not a man.
They do keep trying to get her married. (Sort of Wodehouse humor there.)
She's avoiding it.
She does conceal her sex (armor makes that possible) to mislead an evil
sourceror or three to counter wicked spells cast against males. The
languages of legends have strong gender rules. Cast a spell against male
knights, and Bradamante chops you up. Whoops!
She's just one of several female fighters in those legends.
The original poetry has a lovely sound when not too much of it is read by
someone who knows those old languages.
--
Cliff
Vincent Oberheim
Phizz is also a Scittish (I think) word for a person's face, suggesting that
this guy is known for his caricatures.
> p. 327 "Unorthodox Potato Church"
>
> Probably the same church as Mr. Pin's from TT.
It was Mr. Tulip who had the potato.
To be honest I was rather dissappointed to discover that there WAS a potato
religion. I had always interpreted Mr. Tulip's carrying of a spud to be a
rather sweet left-over from a more innocent time.
Imagine an innocent little lad, of about five or six, in a war torn country
that's a bit short of food. Potatoes would be a rare and treasured
commodity. When his Gran says that, if you've got a potato, you'll be
alright, I read this as 'so long as you've got some basic foods, everything
else is going to be okay'. The young Mr. Tulip, not understanding this, took
it literally and when he gets seperated from his family without having it
explained, clings on to his potato like it was a talisman. A belief that he
has carried with him ever since.
Vincent.
David Chapman
>> p. 327 "Unorthodox Potato Church"
>>
>> Probably the same church as Mr. Pin's from TT.
>
> It was Mr. Tulip who had the potato.
> To be honest I was rather dissappointed to discover that there WAS a
> potato religion. I had always interpreted Mr. Tulip's carrying of a spud
> to be a rather sweet left-over from a more innocent time.
> Imagine an innocent little lad, of about five or six, in a war torn
> country that's a bit short of food. Potatoes would be a rare and treasured
> commodity. When his Gran says that, if you've got a potato, you'll be
> alright, I read this as 'so long as you've got some basic foods,
> everything else is going to be okay'. The young Mr. Tulip, not
> understanding this, took it literally and when he gets seperated from his
> family without having it explained, clings on to his potato like it was a
> talisman. A belief that he has carried with him ever since.
Which is probably how the UPC got started. I doubt Mr Tulip even knew about
it.
--
Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't
live anywhere else.
Alfred May
news:dbtp50thi3ds0tlkb...@4ax.com...
> p. 5 "There was always a war."
>
> Historically, it is possible for a state to constantly be at war for
> quite a long time and survive; the Roman empire was at peace
> everywhere only for brief periods during its existence. The rise of
> conscript armies in the 1860's made such continuous warfare much more
> expensive. However, note that Borogravia's army is all-volunteer
> (albeit still very large).
It should be noted that, during the 19th century, there were not two ears
together when British soldiers (all volunteers) weren't fighting somewhere
in the world.
> p. 9 "a bit short of shillings"
>
> In the English army, taking the King's or Queen's Shilling was a
> ritual of induction; upon taking a shilling coin as enlistment bounty,
> the inductee was legally considered a soldier.
Also mentioned for recruitment of watchmen in A-M
> p. 14 "The annual scrap with Zlobenia"
>
> The Greek city-state of Sparta regularly declared war on its subject
> peoples, the Helots, in order to stay in shape.
I read that as more related to the frequent Anglo-French wars
> p. 33 "Private Parts"
>
> The English have an occasional habit of pronouncing the letter e as if
> it were a long a. "Perks" should therefore be pronounced "pahks".
> Don't blame me, it's their weird language.
I think you are reading too much into that, it's just that the is a
tradition of 'getting names wrong' for the sake of humour, hence 'Private
Parts' (a euphemism for genitals).
> p. 115 "A cup of hot sweet tea is the soldier's friend"
>
> Once again the Borogravian army is shown to be basically British;
> other European armies get coffee. The British army's medical corps,
> indeed, had a charming habit of giving "a cup of tea and a grain of
> morphine" to every incoming wounded soldier - including those with gut
> wounds.
I'd like to see a reference for the above
> p 143 "dark-green uniform of the First Battalion of the Zlobenian
> Fifty-Ninth Bowmen"
>
> Different regiments of the Zlobenian army wear differently-colored
> uniforms; see note for p. 7. Dark green uniforms were used by some
> Union sharpshooters during the American Civil War.
With the other British Army references you've mentioned, I'd have associated
this more with the British Army's 95th Regiment ( 95 th Rifles) of the
Napoleonic period, who also wore dark green.
> p. 203 "than any lowlander could pronounce"
>
> There appear to be two distinct populations in Borogravia:
> "highlanders", with Slavic/Germanic-sounding names and speaking a
> Slavic/Germanic language akin to Überwaldish, and lowlanders, with
> English-sounding names and speaking a language that is at least very
> similar to Morporkian. However, all place names in Borogravia sound
> Slavic/Germanic. It is possible that the lowlanders, at some point in
> the past few hundred years, invaded the hubward Kneck river valley and
> drove the highlanders into the mountains. If the lowlanders originated
> from somewhere closer to the ocean, this may explain why "a great big
> fish" is a Borogravian metaphor.
A Scottish parallel perhaps? In the period before the 19th century (and to a
lesser extent afterwards), the language of the Highlands and Islands was
Gaelic (often referred to, by non-speakers- as 'the Irish Tongue') while the
lowlands tended to use 'Braw Scots'(sp?)<*> a language related to English.
<*> Not to be confused with Scots-English
> p. 259 "Motherhood Medal"
>
> The Soviet Union awarded medals for mothers who gave birth to more
> than four children, starting in 1944; the program's goal was to
> encourage population growth in light of the twenty million Soviets who
> had died in the war.
The Nazis ran the same sort of scheme, with the German Mother's Cross being
awarded in Bronze, Silver and Gold, depending on the number of children.
> p. 278 "Throughout Klatch there are many stories of female warriors"
>
> In 2001 and 2002, the United States embarked on a military adventure
> in Afghanistan. The closing stanza of Rudyard Kipling's "The Young
> British Soldier" reentered the popular consciousness:
>
> "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
> And the women come out to cut up what remains,
> Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
> An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."
The Kipling verse is not a reference to female warriors, but to the belief
that Afghan women tortured and mutilated the wounded
There are plenty of tales of female warriors, throughout western history<*>,
from Boudica onward
<*> I have no data on Eastern examples, but the probably exist somewhere
> p. 342 "Saw the cavalry break.do me over good and proper"
>
> The "Thin Red Line" comes from Rudyard Kipling's "Tommy":
>
> Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer
> soul?"
> But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to
> roll,
>
> The phrase also lent its name to the title of James Jones' novel (and
> the 1998 movie based on it) telling the story of the United States
> capture of Guadalcanal during the Second World War. A popular
> unofficial slogan of the United States Marine Corps reads: "Travel to
> exotic, distant lands, meet exciting, unusual people and kill them".
'Thin Red Line' (which became another name for the British Infantry) comes
from a report by Russell, the Times corespondant on part of the Battle of
Balaclava, where the 93rd Foot (Sutherland Highlanders) repelled a Russian
light cavalry charge while in line (as opposed to the standard 'square').
Russell described the 93rd as a '..tin red streak, tipped with steel...",
this later became 'thin red line'.
> APPENDIX: SONGS
> In general, these lyrics have been obtained from the free Digital
> Tradition archive at http://www.mudcat.org.
>
> No copy has yet been found of:
> Colonel Crapski
> I Wish I'd Never Kissed Her
> Plogviehze (roughly translated as: The Sun Has Risen! Lets Make War!)
> The song about the milkmaid and the soldier who steals her cheese
> after untying her garter
>
> "The World Turned Upside Down"
>
> "The Devil Shall Be My Sergeant" (listed on Digital Tradition as
"Songs and Music of the Redcoats" (Louis Winstock, 1970) quotes only
"Fifty I got for selling me coat
Fifty for me blankets
If ever I 'list for a soldier again
The devil shall be me serjeant."
with the associated recording adding the "Poor old soldier" line.
I seem to recall reading someone claiming to have written the rest (that
might have been on 'mudcat' too), it's not the first song to be added to
then claimed as 'traditional', another example is 'The Bold
Fusilier'/'Rochester Recruiting Sergeant'.
Regards
Tom
Eric Jarvis
>
> It should be noted that, during the 19th century, there were not two ears
> together when British soldiers (all volunteers) weren't fighting somewhere
> in the world.
>
oh well done sir...best tyop of the year so far
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Alec Cawley
<wal...@icefloe.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>> p. 115 "A cup of hot sweet tea is the soldier's friend"
>>
>> Once again the Borogravian army is shown to be basically British;
>> other European armies get coffee. The British army's medical corps,
>> indeed, had a charming habit of giving "a cup of tea and a grain of
>> morphine" to every incoming wounded soldier - including those with gut
>> wounds.
>I'd like to see a reference for the above
I've seen it written down, but not with reference to the Medical Corps
proper, but to the First Aid orderlies at the regimental level. These
were essentially ordinary soldiers given a hurried First Aid course,
much of which may well not have stuck.
>> p. 259 "Motherhood Medal"
>>
>> The Soviet Union awarded medals for mothers who gave birth to more
>> than four children, starting in 1944; the program's goal was to
>> encourage population growth in light of the twenty million Soviets who
>> had died in the war.
>
>The Nazis ran the same sort of scheme, with the German Mother's Cross being
>awarded in Bronze, Silver and Gold, depending on the number of children.
The French also had the Medaille de la Maternité between the wars - they
were worried about losing the population race to the Germans.
>
--
@lec ©awley
Beth Winter
>
> There are plenty of tales of female warriors, throughout western history<*>,
> from Boudica onward
>
> <*> I have no data on Eastern examples, but the probably exist somewhere
Mulan in China, for one. In Japan, also, some women trained with spears
and so on - I think I recall several instances of a wife fighting on her
husband's side, and she would be definitely considered to be bound by
the warrior code of honour.
As for weird medals, Poland awards medals to couples - to this day - on
their fiftieth wedding anniversary. My both sets of grandparents were
awarded one, though one grandfather's in an anarchist/fundamentalist
phase and didn't pick his up ;)
--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Ssirienna
"Eric Jarvis" <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ac7d72f3...@news.individual.net...
> Alfred May wal...@icefloe.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > It should be noted that, during the 19th century, there were not two
ears
> > together when British soldiers (all volunteers) weren't fighting
somewhere
> > in the world.
> >
>
> oh well done sir...best tyop of the year so far
>
Ssirienna
--
"Hanging is too good for a man who makes puns; he should be drawn and
quoted."
--Fred Allen
Terry Pratchett
Schluessel <eschl...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>
>p. 133 "Two miles, sir"
>
>If Clacks towers are spaced an average of two miles apart,
Well done, but this one is a misunderstanding. They're around ten miles
apart, sometimes further in the mountains.
The 'two miles' is a reference to the probable distance of another
signalling spy. It's got nothing to do with the Grand Trunk.
--
Terry Pratchett
grahamafforda...@hotmail.com
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:51:33 +0000, Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk>
wrote:
>>> p. 115 "A cup of hot sweet tea is the soldier's friend"
>>>
>>> indeed, had a charming habit of giving "a cup of tea and a grain of
>>> morphine" to every incoming wounded soldier - including those with gut
>>> wounds.
>>I'd like to see a reference for the above
>
>I've seen it written down, but not with reference to the Medical Corps proper
It gets a mention in one of (probably the first) M*A*S*H books.
Cheers,
Graham.
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 21/03/04 01:56 GMT Standard Time
>ANNOTATIONS for MONSTROUS REGIMENT by Terry Pratchett
Excellent stuff. A few comments...
>p. 1 "In Borogravia"
>
>The name "Borogravia" invokes the word "borogove" (often misprinted as
>"borogrove") from the poem "Jabberwocky" in Lewis Carroll's Through
>the Looking Glass.
I also thought of Belgravia, which *sounds* like it sould be an Eastern
European country, but is actually a district of London.
>p. 29 "Father Jupe"
>
>A running joke in MR is that famous officers lend their names to
>articles of clothing.
Which is, of course, a reference to Cardigan and Wellington: Napoleonic Wars
again.
>p. 36 "Igor had obtained a sausage....the sausage moved"
>
>Igor is using electricity to reanimate dead matter. Does this instance
>presage the coming of electricity to the Discworld in a future book?
Actually, it was revealed in ToT that the Igors know all about electricity, but
it's secret Igoring knowledge.
>The very fact that paper money is being
>issued indicates that Borogravia may have been strapped for hard cash
>for some time.
Coroberating this is Jackrum's comment about "a bit of paper saying it's a
medal, so we're even out of pot metal now."
For the record, other DW countries which use paper money are the Agatean
Empire, which has difficulty with the concept of precious metals in the first
place, and XXXX, as befits a harsh environment with few resources (although,
narratively speaking, there are presumably gold-panners out there somewhere).
>p. 152 "We both lived there"
>
>From the fact that three of the squad are from the same medium-sized
>town, it might be deduced (albeit somewhat shakily) that Borogravia is
>not that big.
It's more likely that this has to do with the whole squad signing up in Plün,
the nearest place the girls of Polly's village wouldn't be recognised...
>No copy has yet been found of:
>The song about the milkmaid and the soldier who steals her cheese
>after untying her garter
The Ups and Downs
As I was goin' to Aylesbury all on a market day
A pretty little Aylesbury girl I met upon the way
Her business was to market with butter, cheese and whey
And we both joined on together, me boys, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day (2x)
As we joined on together, me boys, together side by side
By chance this fair maid's garter, by chance it came untied
For fear that she might lose it, I unto her did say
"Oh your garter's come untied, me love, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day (2x)
As we rode on together, me boys, to the outskirts of the town
At length this fair young damsel, she stopped looked 'round
"Oh since you've been so venturesome, pray tie it on for me"
-"Oh, I will if you go to the apple grove, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day" (2x)
And when we got to the apple grove, the grass was growin' high
I laid this girl upon her back, her garter for to tie
While tying of her garter, such sights I never did see
And we both joined on together, me boys, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day (2x)
"Oh, since you had your will to me, come tell to me your name
Likewise your occupation and where and whence you came"
-"Me name is Mickey the drover boy, from Dublin town come I
And I live at the side of the Ups and Downs, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day" (2x)
And when she got to Aylesbury, her butter was not sold
And the losing of her maidenhead it made her blood run cold
"He's gone, he's gone, he's gone" she said "he's not the lad for me
For he lives at the side of the Ups and Downs, fa-ra-la-diddle-a-day" (2x)
(Other versions have "the *sign* of the Ups and Downs".)
You'll notice he was a drover, not a soldier, and he stole what you'd expect,
rather than the cheese. However the Ups and Downs is the nickname of the 69th
foot, a regiment with strong similarities to the Ins and Outs, consisting
"largely of raw recruits and elderly veterans". The line in the song may be a
reference to this, or may just be a single entendre.
--
Dave
The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
Four-and-twenty Lib Dems came down from Inverness,
And when the vote was counted there were four-and-twenty less.
-Rory Bremner, 7/3/04
esmi
<snip>
>As for weird medals, Poland awards medals to couples - to this
>day - on their fiftieth wedding anniversary.
I vaguely recall hearing that medals were once awarded in France
to all couples who had three or more children during a time when
the French population was decling. Any French afpers care to
confirm or deny the story?
esmi
--
AFP: www.blackwidows.org.uk/afp/
Internet Guide: www.imp-guide.blackwidows.org.uk
Graphic Art: www.deitydiva.co.uk
Web Design: www.blackwidows.org.uk
Anna Mazzoldi
> p. 10 "Awake…"
[snip]
> For what it's worth, very few national anthems start with "awake",
> although many begin with "arise". David Kendall's National Anthem
"The Internationale" starts with "Awake" -- at least in German ("Wacht auf,
Verdammte dieser Erde..."), I can't remember the English version right now.
(This is offered only as a curiosity. I don't think it's the source of the
Borgrovian anthem!)
> p. 20 "you can call me Maladict"
>
> The name is both a play on the name "Benedict" and on the word
> "maledict", which Webster's defines as a accursedness or the act of
> bringing a curse.
...sounds more like a traditional vampire name, "Maledicta" (Latin for
"cursed"), like "Lacrimosa" (Latin for "tearsome"). Of course, the fact
that for a boy it becomes Maledict rather than Maledictus does sound like a
pun on Benedict...
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
Who is this General Failure
and why is he reading my hard drive?
Edmund R. Schluessel
wrote:
>"The Internationale" starts with "Awake" -- at least in German ("Wacht auf,
>Verdammte dieser Erde..."), I can't remember the English version right now.
>(This is offered only as a curiosity. I don't think it's the source of the
>Borgrovian anthem!)
Arise, ye workers from your slumbers!
Arise, ye prisoners of want!!
For reason in revolt now thunders!!!
Now ends the age of cant!!!!
Away with all your superstitions!!!!!
Servile masses arise, arise!!!!!!
We'll change henceforth the old tradition!!!!!!!
And spurn the dust to win the prize!!!!!!!!
So comrades, come rally!!!!!!!!!
And the last fight let us face!!!!!!!!!!
The Internationale unites the human race!!!!!!!!!!!
So comrades, come rally!!!!!!!!!!!!
And the last fight let us face!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Internationale unites the human race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*waits patiently for Ashcroft to kick down his door*
Edmund
David Chapman
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:46:51 +0000, Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>
> wrote:
>
>> "The Internationale" starts with "Awake" -- at least in German ("Wacht
>> auf, Verdammte dieser Erde..."), I can't remember the English version
>> right now. (This is offered only as a curiosity. I don't think it's the
>> source of the Borgrovian anthem!)
>
<snip Internationale>
Is it me, or did you miss a verse? I recall one that runs (IIRC):
Arise, ye prisoners of starvation
Arise, ye wretched of the Earth
For justice thunders condemnation
A better world is now in birth
Edmund R. Schluessel
<jedit_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Is it me, or did you miss a verse? I recall one that runs (IIRC):
>
>Arise, ye prisoners of starvation
>Arise, ye wretched of the Earth
>For justice thunders condemnation
>A better world is now in birth
That's the American version.
David Chapman
Well, if you're expecting Ashcroft to kick your door down it's not
unreasonable to assume you're American.
Lesley Weston
AnnaU...@iol.ie wrote on 21/03/2004 1:46 PM:
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:56:59 -0500, Edmund R. Schluessel wrote:
>
>> p. 10 "Awake…"
> [snip]
>> For what it's worth, very few national anthems start with "awake",
>> although many begin with "arise". David Kendall's National Anthem
>
> "The Internationale" starts with "Awake" -- at least in German ("Wacht auf,
> Verdammte dieser Erde..."), I can't remember the English version right now.
> (This is offered only as a curiosity. I don't think it's the source of the
> Borgrovian anthem!)
In English it's "Arise, ye starvelings, from your slumber... "
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Jennifer & Reinier Sjouw
> On 21 Mar 2004, Beth Winter <bwi...@extenuation.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
> >As for weird medals, Poland awards medals to couples - to this
> >day - on their fiftieth wedding anniversary.
>
sixtieth anniversary at our place. When they arrived back home in the
evening, it turned out they had missed a visit from the Mayor, who
had come to congratulate and to drop a bouquet of flowers. The
next door neighbours accepted on their behalf.
> I vaguely recall hearing that medals were once awarded in France
> to all couples who had three or more children during a time when
> the French population was decling. Any French afpers care to
> confirm or deny the story?
Being Dutch, I'd like to do both. My French teacher (that is, teacher
of French) used to tell about the fact that, in order to make up
for the immense losses France suffered during the Great War
(i.e. WW I), any French woman who has more than 12 children
qualifies for the Legion d'Honneur.
Given the amount of work just one toddler is, I tend to agree
with the sentiment.
TTFN,
Reinier.
Sean Cleary
> In message <c3kgd7$5j0$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, Alfred May
> <wal...@icefloe.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >"Edmund R. Schluessel" <eschl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:dbtp50thi3ds0tlkb...@4ax.com...
>
>
counting) fnord is a word that you do not really see, but will raise
the fear level in any message. Can be applied to any word that, while
not analyzed, is more fear inducing than a similar word would be.
Generally not so applied, but a fear inducing message can be said to
have fnord's in it.
Sean
Sean Cleary
> <wal...@icefloe.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >"Edmund R. Schluessel" <eschl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:dbtp50thi3ds0tlkb...@4ax.com...
>
> >> p. 115 "A cup of hot sweet tea is the soldier's friend"
> >>
> >> Once again the Borogravian army is shown to be basically British;
> >> other European armies get coffee. The British army's medical corps,
> >> indeed, had a charming habit of giving "a cup of tea and a grain of
> >> morphine" to every incoming wounded soldier - including those with gut
> >> wounds.
> >I'd like to see a reference for the above
>
the canadian or brittish was (in there) accused of doing this, and
complicating the resultant surgery to the point where their troops had
lower life expectancy -- had to wait for the morphine to wear off for
proper sergery prep to begin.
Sean
Darin Johnson
> not that it is definative, but read the MASH books about korea battle,
> the canadian or brittish was (in there) accused of doing this, and
> complicating the resultant surgery to the point where their troops had
> lower life expectancy -- had to wait for the morphine to wear off for
> proper sergery prep to begin.
I would have thought the tea was the problem. What is it about
morphine that messes up the surgery? Morphine seemed to be standard
first aid for wounds in my father's WWII era USMC guidebook, so that's
not just a British thing.
--
Darin Johnson
Laziness is the father of invention
Paul S. Brown
In MASH it's stated that the problem is that feeding tea to a person with
bowel lacerations caused by shrapnel is a wonderful recipe for getting "tea
peritonitis" which is what complicates the surgery. The morphine on its own
would have been a lot better.
P.
Edmund R. Schluessel
<usenet...@geekstuff.co.uk> wrote:
>In MASH...
Oh good lord...I think I may have gotten this from MASH too. Does
anyone have corroboration that's *not* from MASH?
Edmund
Nigel Stapley
"Aleks A.-Lessmann" <al...@lessmann-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:jjjv50p3v2thj1hk0...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:56:59 -0500, Edmund R. Schluessel wrote:
>
> annotations:
>
> >p. 329 "Why did you say you were a cherry pancake?"
> >John F. Kennedy, speaking in West Berlin, infamously declared "Ich bin
> >ein Berliner" - "I am a jam donut". A routine on the matter appears in
> >Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill".
No, he claimed to be a plastic bag, because he actually said "Ich bin ein
Binliner".
HTH
NWYWWASBE
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply e-mail address will bounce>
sher...@suespammers.org
Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <dbtp50thi3ds0tlkb...@4ax.com>, Edmund R.
> Schluessel <eschl...@yahoo.com> writes
>>
>
> Well done, but this one is a misunderstanding. They're around ten miles
> apart, sometimes further in the mountains.
Of course! The Disc is flat! All you need is a reasonable elevation
and people with good eyesight/magic/lenses.
sher...@suespammers.org
Duh! That was just me voicing an epiphany, not (for once) lecturing
an author on his work.
Edmund R. Schluessel
>In message-id <slrnc61mtl....@happy.minority-report.co.uk>,
>sher...@suespammers.org <sher...@suespammers.org> wrote:
>> In message-id <nG9YDnfz...@unseen.demon.co.uk>,
>> Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <dbtp50thi3ds0tlkb...@4ax.com>, Edmund R.
>>> Schluessel <eschl...@yahoo.com> writes
>>>>
>>>>If Clacks towers are spaced an average of two miles apart,
>>>
>>> Well done, but this one is a misunderstanding. They're around ten miles
>>> apart, sometimes further in the mountains.
>>
>> Of course! The Disc is flat! All you need is a reasonable elevation
>> and people with good eyesight/magic/lenses.
>
There's still gonna be a little dissipation, from atmospheric effects
and the beam spreading out. The loss of signal strength goes down as:
(fraction lost) = e^-(distance traveled).
But we've successfully bounced lasers off the moon, so if somehow the
Discworld got ahold of lasers of sufficient quality you wouldn't need
relay towers anymore.
Of course the Discworld isn't *absolutely* flat -- there's mountains
here and there.
Consequently, the Gods on Cor Celesti don't need to use great magicks
to spy on the ways of mortals. They just need to look out the window,
and a little down.
But oceans are flat. So I wonder...when the streams of light shot into
the air from the pyramids of Djelybeybi, could they see it from
Ankh-Morpork? (note to self -- check. My copy of Pyramids appears to
have wandered.)
This also obviates the development of the compass on the Discworld --
if you're always in sight of land, you don't need to navigate by
magnets.
Oh, right, point. Build a lighthouse on Jowser Cove, build another one
in Al-Khali, get some Clacks employees on both ends, and modulate the
light from each, and you've got an intercontinental data trunk.
Edmund
cMAD
> Oh, right, point. Build a lighthouse on Jowser Cove, build another one
> in Al-Khali, get some Clacks employees on both ends, and modulate the
> light from each, and you've got an intercontinental data trunk.
One thing I'm not getting is why you can't speed up the Clacks system by
someone walking, rather slowly, from one tower to the next.
Supposedly, the speed of light is the slowest speed on the Disc ...
cMAD <- Then again, who says that the roundworld laws of logic strictly hold
there
Edmund R. Schluessel
>One thing I'm not getting is why you can't speed up the Clacks system by
>someone walking, rather slowly, from one tower to the next.
>Supposedly, the speed of light is the slowest speed on the Disc ...
>
Because in a twisted way, the principle of relativity has to apply.
Here's the basic argument. From the perspective of someone on the
Disc, the Discworld is moving along at a reasonable clip --
constellations change fast enough that people notice them changing.
And observers, standing on the Disc and measuring the speed of
Disclight, all agree that Disclight is moving at some slowest speed.
Now say I get on a bicycle moving very quickly counter to Great
A'Tuin's direction of motion, and, while bicycling, measure the speed
of Disclight. From the perspective of observers on the disc, my speed
should approach zero.
If the speed of Disclight is the absolute slowest speed possible, then
I, on that bicycle, must measure the speed of Disclight to be either
moving faster than myself -- which is inconsitent with our postulate
-- or slower than myself.
Repeating this experiment, I could then conclude that the speed of
Disclight is the same -- zero, as it happens, because I can always
slow down a little bit more but no matter how slow I go Disclight will
still be slower than I am -- in any frame of reference.
I wonder if one can construct a consistent physics around this
postulate? It'd have the general relativity of regular matter as a
limiting case for fast objects...and the general relativity of
tachyons as a limiting case for slow objects...
Edmund
Peter Ellis
>"Edmund R. Schluessel" wrote:
>
>> Oh, right, point. Build a lighthouse on Jowser Cove, build another one
>> in Al-Khali, get some Clacks employees on both ends, and modulate the
>> light from each, and you've got an intercontinental data trunk.
>
>One thing I'm not getting is why you can't speed up the Clacks system by
>someone walking, rather slowly, from one tower to the next.
>Supposedly, the speed of light is the slowest speed on the Disc ...
Where'd you get that from? Discworld light is slower than ours, but
still a heck of a clip faster than a walking person. Around the speed
of sound, if we take that section as literal rather than as a joke [1]
We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
So, if your hypothetical messenger can run fast enough to arrive before
the sound of the starting gun, go for it.
Peter
[1] A little unwise - the section describes the speed of light being
measured by two blokes on hills using the "give us a shout when you see
it, OK?" method.
David Chapman
> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light has been
empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
Peter Ellis
>Peter Ellis wrote:
>
>> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
>> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
>> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
>
>I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light has been
>empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
You did read my footnote, yeah?
Peter
David Chapman
Damn it, Jim - I'm a Usenetter, not a doctor!
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>Date: 24/03/2004 06:33 GMT Standard Time
>One thing I'm not getting is why you can't speed up the Clacks system by
>someone walking, rather slowly, from one tower to the next.
>Supposedly, the speed of light is the slowest speed on the Disc ...
Er, supposed by whom. precisely? It's not the *fastest* speed on the Disc (that
honour goes to Rincewind's brain when in danger, IIRC)[1], but it's about the
speed of sound. If it was the slowest speed, no-one would be able to see where
they were going...
[1] Speeds; A rough guess guide:
Light/Sound
Dark (because it's always able to move out of the way)
The Ambigious Pazuma
Granny Weatherwax's broomstick, as flown by Esk
The Sun (twice as fast as its own light)
The Kite (it overtook the Sun)
Binky
Rincewind's brain
Edmund R. Schluessel
Ceannaideach) wrote:
>[1] Speeds; A rough guess guide:
>
>Light/Sound
>Dark (because it's always able to move out of the way)
>The Ambigious Pazuma
>Granny Weatherwax's broomstick, as flown by Esk
>The Sun (twice as fast as its own light)
>The Kite (it overtook the Sun)
>Binky
>Rincewind's brain
Why does there only have to be one kind of light?
Daibhid Ceannaideach
IIRC, there isn't. There's light, meta-light and anti-light. TTBOMK the speed
of anti-light has never been discussed, and meta-light (the light you see the
dark by) doesn't have a speed because it's everywhere all the time.
Kegs
> Peter Ellis wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Chapman wrote:
>>> Peter Ellis wrote:
>>>
>>>> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
>>>> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
>>>> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
>>>
>>> I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light has
>>> been empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
>>
>> You did read my footnote, yeah?
>
> Damn it, Jim - I'm a Usenetter, not a doctor!
Pathologist surely, if its a footnote?
--
James jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk
Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.
Torak
>>
>>In the English army, taking the King's or Queen's Shilling was a
>>ritual of induction; upon taking a shilling coin as enlistment bounty,
>>the inductee was legally considered a soldier.
One of my mates is in the OTC at uni, and his first pay packet consisted
of a shiny new 5p piece. He bought a little cufflink-type box for it.
Alec Cawley
writes
>"David Chapman" <jedit_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Peter Ellis wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Chapman wrote:
>>>> Peter Ellis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
>>>>> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
>>>>> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
>>>>
>>>> I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light has
>>>> been empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
>>>
>>> You did read my footnote, yeah?
>>
>> Damn it, Jim - I'm a Usenetter, not a doctor!
>
>Pathologist surely, if its a footnote?
Chiropodist?
--
@lec Šawley
SteveD
>
>>ANNOTATIONS for MONSTROUS REGIMENT by Terry Pratchett
I read this twice, then had to go back and check the author.
First thought: "He's doing his own annotations now, too?"
-SteveD
grahamafforda...@hotmail.com
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:02:59 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<usenet...@geekstuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> I would have thought the tea was the problem. What is it about
>> morphine that messes up the surgery? Morphine seemed to be standard
>> first aid for wounds in my father's WWII era USMC guidebook, so that's
>> not just a British thing.
>>
>In MASH it's stated that the problem is that feeding tea to a person with
>bowel lacerations caused by shrapnel is a wonderful recipe for getting "tea
>peritonitis" which is what complicates the surgery. The morphine on its own
>would have been a lot better.
Err, no it wouldn't.
Being sad, and having most of the M*A*S*H books, here's the quote:
"One of the most consistent customers of the 4077 MASH was the
Commonwealth Division, consisting of British, Canadian, Australian,
New Zealand and other assorted British Empire troops a few miles to
the west. Captain Black [the anasthaesiologist] had an intense,
burning, complete, unremitting hatred for all of the medical officers
in the Commonwealth Division. His reason was very simple: they gave
half a grain of morphine and a cup of tea to every wounded soldier. If
the solider was incapable of swallowing the tea, he still got the half
grain of morphine. As a result of this treatment, it was frequently
necessary to wait for the morphine to wear off before a patient's
condition could be assessed. If early surgery seemed reasonable or
mandatory, Ugly John [Captain Black], in the process of getting the
patient to sleep, often caught the tea in his lap. Frequently the
patient had holes in his stomach or small bowel. In this situation
Ugly did not catch the tea in his lap. The surgeon would aspirate it
from the abdominal cavity where it had leaked through the holes. The
surgeons of the 4077th had the largest series of tea peretonitis cases
in recorded medical history."
Cheers,
Graham.
Sean Cleary
> Hi there,
>
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:02:59 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
> <usenet...@geekstuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> I would have thought the tea was the problem. What is it about
> >> morphine that messes up the surgery? Morphine seemed to be standard
> >> first aid for wounds in my father's WWII era USMC guidebook, so that's
> >> not just a British thing.
> >
> Commonwealth Division, consisting of British, Canadian, Australian,
> New Zealand and other assorted British Empire troops a few miles to
> the west. Captain Black [the anasthaesiologist] had an intense,
> burning, complete, unremitting hatred for all of the medical officers
> in the Commonwealth Division. His reason was very simple: they gave
> half a grain of morphine and a cup of tea to every wounded soldier. If
> the solider was incapable of swallowing the tea, he still got the half
> grain of morphine. As a result of this treatment, it was frequently
> necessary to wait for the morphine to wear off before a patient's
> condition could be assessed. If early surgery seemed reasonable or
> mandatory, Ugly John [Captain Black], in the process of getting the
> patient to sleep, often caught the tea in his lap. Frequently the
> patient had holes in his stomach or small bowel. In this situation
> Ugly did not catch the tea in his lap. The surgeon would aspirate it
> from the abdominal cavity where it had leaked through the holes. The
> surgeons of the 4077th had the largest series of tea peretonitis cases
> in recorded medical history."
>
> Cheers,
> Graham.
I knew that the morphine was part of the problem quoted, but did not
have the book to cover that quote. Now if someone could find out if
this is story or truth....
Sean
Sean Cleary
Caution, since the weirdness that is general relativity is not taught
much in high school, and pterry is unlikely to have been to a freshman
college physics class, he may not be aware of it. If so, kindly look
to pre-relativity theories for how it might be working, or come up
with a theory that will fit the data. Relativity must first be proved
to fit the Diskworld universe, not postulated as a working thing that
the diskworld must conform to.
Sean
Eric Jarvis
> much in high school, and pterry is unlikely to have been to a freshman
> college physics class, he may not be aware of it. If so, kindly look
> to pre-relativity theories for how it might be working, or come up
> with a theory that will fit the data. Relativity must first be proved
> to fit the Diskworld universe, not postulated as a working thing that
> the diskworld must conform to.
>
My money would be on Pterry haven't a good grounding in special relativity
and a basic grasp of at least the outline of general relativity. I don't
believe it's entirely a coincidence that a lot of afpers have studied
physics or a related field, he not only gets an awful lot of it spot on,
he also makes some fabulous jokes about it.
Whilst it does require being utterly immersed in a subject to really fully
understand it, one can easily pick up the basics from books without having
to be in a situation of formally studying it. My favourite aspect of
physics barely existed when I was at university. [1]
[1] String theory.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Edmund R. Schluessel
wrote:
>Caution, since the weirdness that is general relativity is not taught
>much in high school, and pterry is unlikely to have been to a freshman
>college physics class, he may not be aware of it. If so, kindly look
>to pre-relativity theories for how it might be working, or come up
>with a theory that will fit the data. Relativity must first be proved
>to fit the Diskworld universe, not postulated as a working thing that
>the diskworld must conform to.
>
>Sean
'm not saying that Pterry put relativity into a story,
necessarily...I'm just saying it's a logical consequence of one of his
ideas.
And for what it's worth, if electricity and propagation of information
work the same way as they do here, then, all else being equal,
relativity is the simplest solution ;-)
Edmund
Alec Cawley
Cleary <seanea...@hotmail.com> writes
>Caution, since the weirdness that is general relativity is not taught
>much in high school, and pterry is unlikely to have been to a freshman
>college physics class, he may not be aware of it. If so, kindly look
>to pre-relativity theories for how it might be working, or come up
>with a theory that will fit the data. Relativity must first be proved
>to fit the Diskworld universe, not postulated as a working thing that
>the diskworld must conform to.
PTerry did, however, hang out with a crowd of nuclear engineers, who are
probably a lot more into relativity of all flavours than the general
populace.
--
@lec Šawley
Jenny Radcliffe
I don't think you know very many engineers. ;)
Aware of? Certainly. Into, as in talking about? I doubt it ...
Jenny
Worked with the same people, some years later
Lesley Weston
on 24/03/2004 11:48 AM:
> "David Chapman" <jedit_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Peter Ellis wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Chapman wrote:
>>>> Peter Ellis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
>>>>> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
>>>>> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
>>>>
>>>> I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light has
>>>> been empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
>>>
>>> You did read my footnote, yeah?
>>
>> Damn it, Jim - I'm a Usenetter, not a doctor!
>
> Pathologist surely, if its a footnote?
Only if it's a deceased or diseased footnote.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Torak
>
> I read this twice, then had to go back and check the author.
>
> First thought: "He's doing his own annotations now, too?"
Would make life easier for us, though, wouldn't it? ;-)
n4cat
>Kegs wrote
>
> > "David Chapman" writes:
> >
> >> Peter Ellis wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, David Chapman wrote:
> >>>> Peter Ellis wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough
to
> >>>>> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed
of
> >>>>> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't recall which book it's in, but the speed of Discworld light
has
> >>>> been empirically tested to be almost exactly the speed of sound.
> >>>
> >>> You did read my footnote, yeah?
> >>
> >> Damn it, Jim - I'm a Usenetter, not a doctor!
> >
> > Pathologist surely, if its a footnote?
>
> Only if it's a deceased or diseased footnote.
podiatrist
--
n4cat
Edmund R. Schluessel
wrote:
>podiatrist
Now, now, let's not start calling names.
Cliff
"Peter Ellis" <pj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
[snip]
>
> We also know that Trymon in TLF can throw a knife *just* fast enough to
> see a little relativistic distortion - a few per cent of the speed of
> light. So lightspeed ~= sound speed isn't far off.
>
Just reminding folks, I'm sure you know this, that it is really Magic doing
the distortion, not Relativity. Magic is just aping (librarianing?)
Relativity here.
In this post
o "thing" is matter - dirt, electrons and protons and other things that
shock you, and stuff made out of dirt, and you;
o "light" is what we use to see things;
o "EM" is electromagnetic radiation sometimes includes light, sometimes not.
Matter can go faster than the speed of light and Em. When it does there's
just a boring glow, on those occasions when you can see it. It is rather a
cheat. A thing going faster than the speed of light ought to whoosh! or
whine! or boom! or something, but it doesn't. It's rather disappointing.
Panic!
There's quite a few Things inside Your Body, right now, exceeding the speed
of EM and light in your body, flagrantly violating the Law that says "Matter
Cannot Go Faster Than The Speed Of Light". Where's the Cops when you need
them? Why isn't the Watch doing something about unlicensed violations of the
Law?
"Quite a few" is only a few trillions IIRC, or trillions of trillions, or
one of those little numbers chemists like; more, on average, the farther you
are from the South Atlantic Anomaly, where Atlantis sank, and which you
ought to know about if we're ever gonna get a nice, fun, space race going
again.
Seriously, though, Relativity applies to that one speed ( = 1) at which EM
and light move when there are no things; not "no things around", but "no
things period." This speed is independent of frequency, direction,
temperature, and the newspaper book reviews. (Is there any evidence
whatsoever that they read the books they review? Evidence they read even the
dust jacket?)
Things not only reduce the speed at which EM moves, but they make that
speed dependent on frequency, direction, density, composition, lots of
other factors, including, probably, if you could figure a way to measure
this, whether it heard a good bedtime story.
The speed of light in your body is zero, I think.
Once some things have reduced the speed of light or EM, another thing can
exceed that speed. The speeding thing produces Cherenkov Radiation.
The Law (like the bothersome Entropy law as stated in SODI&II) is not a "Lie
to Children," it's just a lie.
--
Cliff
"Looking right in your eyes with a big, fat lie saying, uh uh, that's just
right."
Edmund R. Schluessel
>o "thing" is matter - dirt, electrons and protons and other things that
>shock you, and stuff made out of dirt, and you;
>
>o "light" is what we use to see things;
>
>o "EM" is electromagnetic radiation sometimes includes light, sometimes not.
>
>Matter can go faster than the speed of light and Em. When it does there's
>just a boring glow, on those occasions when you can see it. It is rather a
>cheat. A thing going faster than the speed of light ought to whoosh! or
>whine! or boom! or something, but it doesn't. It's rather disappointing.
>
Matter can go faster than the local speed of light. The distinction
between "local" and "vacuum" speed of light is very very very very
veryveryvery important.
>There's quite a few Things inside Your Body, right now, exceeding the speed
>of EM and light in your body, flagrantly violating the Law that says "Matter
>Cannot Go Faster Than The Speed Of Light". Where's the Cops when you need
>them? Why isn't the Watch doing something about unlicensed violations of the
>Law?
The Law is...well, it's several:
The Maxwell Equations say that electromagnetic waves moving through a
material travel at the speed of light in that material;
Special Relativity, which follows directly from the Maxwell equations,
says that things with real mass cannot move at the speed of light in
vacuum, and that things with no mass must move at the speed of light
in vacuum (and that things with imaginary mass must move faster than
the speed of light in vacuum);
An alternate statement of the above is that to accelerate mass to the
speed of light, you need to give it an infinite amount of energy.
Quantum mechanics introduces the possibility of antimatter, which has
real mass, and the combination of matter and antimatter does result in
an information-preserving way of turning matter into EM waves moving
at the speed of light. The mechanism by which this happens is still
not well-understood, although string theory and its successors provide
some helpful suggestions.
>Seriously, though, Relativity applies to that one speed ( = 1) at which EM
>and light move when there are no things; not "no things around", but "no
>things period." This speed is independent of frequency, direction,
>temperature, and the newspaper book reviews. (Is there any evidence
>whatsoever that they read the books they review? Evidence they read even the
>dust jacket?)
Not exactly so. The speed of light in vacuum will be measured to be
the same under any circumstances, to the limit of your equipment. It
doesn't make a difference, for example, if you're near, or indeed
inside, a black hole. Relativity, as far as we can tell, applies
everywhere, under every circumstance.
>
>Things not only reduce the speed at which EM moves, but they make that
>speed dependent on frequency, direction, density, composition, lots of
>other factors, including, probably, if you could figure a way to measure
>this, whether it heard a good bedtime story.
>
>The speed of light in your body is zero, I think.
It's around .75c, or around 2.2*10^5 km/s.
The exact behavior of EM waves in matter is complicated, but it
basically comes down to local electric permettivity (how well the
material stores charge) and local magnetic permeability (how well the
materia lets magnetic fields pass through). Local speed of light is
one over the geometric mean of local permettivity and local
permeability.
>
>Once some things have reduced the speed of light or EM, another thing can
>exceed that speed. The speeding thing produces Cherenkov Radiation.
>
>The Law (like the bothersome Entropy law as stated in SODI&II) is not a "Lie
>to Children," it's just a lie.
As above, the trick is to make sure you actually know what the law is
before you state it.
Edmund
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Hmm. Pterry gives the impression that, like me, he read Carl Sagan's Cosmos for
fun. I don't know if he did or not (I do know he can't have read it at the same
age I did, 'cos it wasn't published then, but I'm pretty sure he'd have been
reading something similar). I'm quite sure he's at least "aware" of relativity.
(Like someone said, relativistic effects get mentioned in TLF).
From the "Words from the Master" section of the APF:
- Where are all these references to science, physics in particular, coming
from?
"How much physics do I know? How do I know that? I don't know about the stuff I
don't know. I've no formal training but I've spent a lot of time around
scientists of one sort of another, and I'm a great believer in osmotic
knowledge."
[People on the net (who tend to have a university or technical background) are
often impressed by Terry's many references to the physical sciences in his
novels ("Oh wow, you can really tell he used to work for a nuclear power
plant!" is an often-heard cry), but frankly I think they are underestimating
the non-university audience out there. Most of the things Terry mentions in
passing (e.g. Big Bang, quarks, wave/particle duality) are covered in high
school physics classes (or at least in Holland they are), and surely everybody
who does not deliberately turn away from anything scientific in content will
have seen references in newspapers, on tv or in magazines to things like
quantum particles or the "Trousers of Time"?]
Cliff
> On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:46:40 GMT, "Cliff" <jc...@space.com>
wrote:
>
> >o "thing" is matter - dirt, electrons and protons and
other things that
> >shock you, and stuff made out of dirt, and you;
> >
> >o "light" is what we use to see things;
> >
> >o "EM" is electromagnetic radiation sometimes includes
light, sometimes not.
> >
> >Matter can go faster than the speed of light and Em. When
it does there's
> >just a boring glow, on those occasions when you can see
it. It is rather a
> >cheat. A thing going faster than the speed of light ought
to whoosh! or
> >whine! or boom! or something, but it doesn't. It's rather
disappointing.
> >
>
> Matter can go faster than the local speed of light. The
distinction
> between "local" and "vacuum" speed of light is very very
very very
> veryveryvery important.
>
Most people don't seem to know that. Most science fiction
writers don't know it either. They are like motorcyclists
trying to break the speed limit through a Redwood forest.
Verily, to get from here to Betelgeuse in a small fraction
of human lifetime, the human will just have to live longer
:).
> >There's quite a few Things inside Your Body, right now,
exceeding the speed
> >of EM and light in your body,
I should have footnoted that I was referring to cosmic rays,
and radioactive decay particles from C14, O18 and the like.
[snip]
> > the Law that says "Matter
> >Cannot Go Faster Than The Speed Of Light".
[snip stuff that wasn't really funny]
>
> The Law is...well, it's several:
>
One law, we just don't know exactly what it is, and no one
will tell us. (Like an American driving in Canada or Europe
or a different state. We understand, we think, the basic
idea - don't crash into people or things [except in Rome,
Italy, where, apparently, pedestrians are targets but they
won't tell you where to turn in the scalps for the bounties.
{That was just a joke!}] )
> The Maxwell Equations
Let's not be shy here they are:
div D = 4*pi*rho;
curl H = J - D';
curl E = -B';
div B = 0.
4 equations, 6 unknowns. H, D, J, rho, E, B.
We need to model the media before solving. Fortunately, the
media will model for same wages with or without its clothes
on, producing different results.
First equation looks suspiciously like G = 4*pi*T from
general relativity, and is exactly the same math (rho
changes meaning) as Newton's gravity
div G = 4*pi*rho
which clearly says that inside a hollow earth there's no
gravitational pull towards the surface (and the centrifugal
effect is a thousandth or less) so pfooey to Hollow
Earthers. The stories by something Jules Verne, Burroughs,
et al., are still fun to read.
> say that electromagnetic waves moving through a
> material travel at the speed of light in that material;
which is frequency and direction dependent.
Coal, a black material, has speed of light = 0; calcite has
two different speeds of light; while attempts at humorous,
but not funny, defenses of the English measuring system over
metric will all note that the speed of electronic signals
(EM waves) in copper is 1 foot per nano-second for all
practical purposes meaning you can get a 9ns delay by
tossing 9 feet of twisted pair onto the floor. This really
works. I've used it breadboarding circuits rather often.
>
> Special Relativity, which follows directly from the
Maxwell equations,
by setting H = B, D = E. I.e., no matter.
Hence, c is a limit, not an actuality, of there being no
thing, nothing. Therefore, c cannot be dependent on any
thing: not on position for every position is equivalent if
there is no thing; not molecular composition because
molecules are things and c is the limit where there aren't
any molecules.
Hence, c must be a constant.
From c = constant it follows immediately
> that things with real mass cannot move at the speed of
light in
> vacuum, and that things with no mass
cannot exist by our definitions above so let's say "things
having no rest mass moving in a vacuum"
> must move at the speed of light
> in vacuum
and things with no rest mass moving in media must move at
the speed of EM in that media. Furthermore, it always turns
out that things measureing no rest mass turn out to be EM or
experimental error. (When gravitons are detected, I'll
change this, but not till then.)
> (and that things with imaginary mass must move faster than
> the speed of light in vacuum);
Actually, not, because the derivation that gives that rotten
square root (1 - v*v) is just invalid past the limit. Things
with imaginary mass are not things.
> An alternate statement of the above is that to accelerate
mass to the
> speed of light, you need to give it an infinite amount of
energy.
First all those pesky little protons that we neglected
become hard cosmic rays that turn our mass into nasty dirt
by hydrogen embrittlement, our transformers explode, our
capacitors arc over, zener diodes pop, and gas masks flake
off which makes OSHA very upset.
> Quantum mechanics introduces the possibility of
antimatter,
er, the anti matter was there first. Those old scientists
look pretty old, but not that old. I nominate as the first
Quantum mechanic Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck, born April
23, 1858, (That is even before Terry).
> which has
> real mass, and the combination of matter and antimatter
does result in
> an information-preserving way of turning matter into EM
waves moving
> at the speed of light.
Actually, sorry, it doesn't move at c. In positron-electon
annihalation, the 511 keV photons, which are EM but not
light, move at Speed of 511 keV EM in the substance of the
scintillator, or the star, or outer space.
It's in pair production that you'll see Cherenkov Radiation
easiest. Visit your local scintiallator today! (Standard tip
is two dollars per song, not one.)
> The mechanism by which this happens is still
> not well-understood, although string theory and its
successors provide
> some helpful suggestions.
I think pair-production counts as a process understood.
There's no fundamental trouble predicting the outcome of
experiments they can do now. We need the super-conducting
super-collider (Texan ants ate the first try at building
one), or a moon based laboratory where they can use the Sun
as the particle accelerator.
> >Seriously, though, Relativity applies to that one speed
( = 1) at which EM
> >and light move when there are no things; not "no things
around", but "no
> >things period." This speed is independent of frequency,
direction,
> >temperature, and the newspaper book reviews. (Is there
any evidence
> >whatsoever that they read the books they review? Evidence
they read even the
> >dust jacket?)
>
> Not exactly so. The speed of light in vacuum will be
measured to be
> the same under any circumstances, to the limit of your
equipment. It
> doesn't make a difference, for example, if you're near, or
indeed
> inside, a black hole. Relativity, as far as we can tell,
applies
> everywhere, under every circumstance.
>
It does make a difference whether you're inside super-cooled
sodium (speed of visible light about 45 miles per hour or 70
km per hour), or inside water, or inside glass or inside
tenuous hydrogen gas.
We're always going to be inside something.
How we'll really do it is we'll measure speed of light at a
convenient frequency, probably helium-neon laser, plot a
chart, extrapolate to density = 0 and say we've measured the
speed of light in vacuum, when we haven't really measured
the speed of light in vacuum at all. It can't be done.
Mathematical physicists set c = 1 in just about every paper.
That does not affect our results. We just scale all other
speeds by ours.
> >
> >Things not only reduce the speed at which EM moves, but
they make that
> >speed dependent on frequency, direction, density,
composition, lots of
> >other factors, including, probably, if you could figure a
way to measure
> >this, whether it heard a good bedtime story.
> >
> >The speed of light in your body is zero, I think.
>
> It's around .75c, or around 2.2*10^5 km/s.
>
I think that's EM, not light. It's kind of hard to write
about speed of light through media light doesn't go through.
> The exact behavior of EM waves in matter is complicated,
but it
> basically comes down to local electric permettivity (how
well the
> material stores charge) and local magnetic permeability
(how well the
> materia lets magnetic fields pass through). Local speed of
light is
> one over the geometric mean of local permettivity and
local
> permeability.
I've never seen permettiviy used. Permeability gets used in
the big magnets for NMR machines where you can say the
frequency is zero.
For visible light, the material is usually represented as an
index of refraction with real and imaginary parts that are
both functions of frequency, composition and density. The
imaginary part represents absorption.
When you need them, and we will need them for our space
race, index of refraction is just measured and stored in
"Steam Tables" that look like the response charts (also
called "Steam Tables") for electronic chips. These used to
be printed and bound at big expense. These days you get them
by SSL download at bigger expense.
> >
> >Once some things have reduced the speed of light or EM,
another thing can
> >exceed that speed. The speeding thing produces Cherenkov
Radiation.
> >
I propose "Pratchettkov Radiation" as a component of
Disc-moon-light as in this:
Discmoon glows by Pratchettkov radiation (as well as silvery
grass radiance and dragon farts); a fact we know because the
Discmoon moves faster than Disclight in a magical field.
> >The Law (like the bothersome Entropy law as stated in
SODI&II) is not a "Lie
> >to Children," it's just a lie.
>
> As above, the trick is to make sure you actually know what
the law is
> before you state it.
>
> Edmund
Or use it. Science is worthless until it is put to use, like
in a nice, fun, space race.
For Entropy: We can't put to use "increase of disorder"
statements, which makes analogy to a student's dorm room so
the kiddies nod, think they understand and don't pester the
professor/teacher with really good questions the
professor/teacher ought to be able to answer but cannot. And
professors/teachers hate saying "I don't know". But we can
use "decrease of available free energy" statement.
Similarly, we cannot use "the mass increases to infinity" of
Special Relativity, but we can use what? What are we trying
to teach when we emphasize the mass effect? or time
dilation? or length contraction? These are honest questions.
I'd like your thoughts on them.
The only use I've seen of Special Relativity was for a
crystal diffraction device because Relativity modified the
spectrum from/of inner shell X-rays.
It seems to me that we're just teaching that as long as
people retire at 65, people just can't go star traveling, so
neener, neener, neener, kid, stop dreaming and eat your
spinach.
The conclusion from c = constant, if humans want to travel
to the stars, is humans must live longer. Nothing wrong with
that that I can see. Can't do it now, true, but 200 years
ago we couldn't do email, either. 80 years ago the world was
all black and white. 50 years ago you couldn't buy a
Pratchett novel. 50 years from now there'll be 3 to 10
thousand people, not counting astronomers and
astrophysicists, living full time, except for honeymoons to
Niagara Falls, on the moon building space ships out of moon
dirt. That's a real projection from corporations thinking of
investing real capital. Though, they are overlooking the
need for moon suits for the donkeys. See, they'll need
prospectors to go out on the moon and find ores. (Most of
the moon is basically basalt, but there's bound to be
lodes.) The image of the grizzled old prospector just
doesn't work without his faithful little
Reality is a whole lot more interesting, and fun, than we
can imagine.
--
Cliff
n4cat
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:07:13 +0800, "n4cat"
>
> >podiatrist
>
> Now, now, let's not start calling names.
It could have been worse.
I could have started calling people physicists.
--
n4cat
Martin Watts
"Vincent Oberheim" <norman....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:c3k7nt$28ebdf$1...@ID-204143.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > p. 173 "our cartoonist Fizz"
>
> Phizz is also a Scittish (I think) word for a person's face, suggesting
that
> this guy is known for his caricatures.
>
I would think this refers to the Victorian illustrator "Phiz", a.k.a
Hablot K. Browne, who illustrated many books by Charles Dickens. See:
http://65.107.211.206/art/illustration/phiz/bio.html
Martin (new to the group, and hoping I haven't repeated something that has
already been said)
Len Oil
> One thing I'm not getting is why you can't speed up the Clacks system
by
> someone walking, rather slowly, from one tower to the next.
> Supposedly, the speed of light is the slowest speed on the Disc ...
As I think someone else mentioned (I'm a bit behind/sideways with
threads at the moment) there's the light that can be seen slowly flowing
over the landscape and the light by which you can /see/ the flowing over
the landscape. You may consider the slow light to be a volumetric
lighting effect/wavefront inhibited by the magical field, which is seen
by what might be common-or-garden (non-magically inhibited) light, which
is your standard near-as-makes-no-difference 3x10^8 m/s stuff. And then
there's darkness, which is sitting in the pub checking his watch every
few minutes waiting for the lights to get there and stand their
rounds...
--
AFP Code 2.0: AC$/>M-UK d@(--) s:+>- a- UP+ R+++ F++ h- P3x= OSD+:-- ?C
M-- L pp--- I->** W+ c@ B+ Cn::::+ CC- PT+>+++ Pu* 5+>++ X-- MT++
eV+(++-) r* y+ end
Len Oil
> p. 4 "Tübz"; "Plün"
The former reminds me of the character "Tubs" in "The League of
Gentlemen" (UK comedy, not the 'Extraordinary' film).
> p. 10 "a great big fish!"
>
> Since Borogravia is landlocked, one is inclined to wonder why a "great
> big fish" would be a common metaphor; see note for p. 203.
Rivers and lakes would have their fair share of piscine inhabitents.
> p. 17 "he's banned the religion"
>
> Although Heinrich emulates Ankh-Morpork, we know that both Vetinari
> and the priests of A-M are strongly against the banning of any
> particular religion.
True (slippery slope, and all that), but there's basically a
counter-point element to the whole thing. Unseen female ruler in a
country where religion is the be-all and end-all vs. an out-and-about
male leader who is less welcoming of ecumenical affairs.
> p. 23 "It doesn't mean I can't kick you in the fork."
>
> Men being kicked in the genitals will become as dominant a theme as
> the existence of those genitals.
And it need not be mentioned that there's a whole dual-meaning thing
going on. Fork => description of the location (being where the legs
fork from the trunk) and a play on the obvious word of profanity.
Similarly we have rolled-up socks and the socks/sex (as in "a man's sex
[organ]") reference.
> p. 90 "You bloody beateater"
>
> Borogravians and Zlobenians derisively refer to each other as
> "beateater" and "swede-eater".
Also a parallel with the real world. The French call us English 'Le
Rosbifs' from the Roast Beef we apparently eat while we call them Frogs
from the frogs' legs they are supposed to savour (though I've also heard
this latter is due to a frog/toad emblem on a standard, similar to the
way that something like "A Poucy, a Poucy! A cat, a cat!" was the
herald/arms-recognisers cry led to the name "pussy cat"). In fact a
derogatory name for just about any culture can be formed by making the
appropriate substitution in the phrase
"<insert_ethnic_food_type_here>-eater".
Then there's the possible parallel between 'beateater' and 'beefeater'
(something to do with the traditional rations for the red-coated
regiment that guards the Tower of London), but probably not a primary
sense, here.
> p. 104 "The candle had been tilted.cans of lamp oil"
>
> This passage wass written in light of tightening anti-terrorism
> legislation throughout the world, legislation which in Britain forbade
> the distribution of knowledge which might conceivably aid terrorists.
Not sure what the reference is, here.
> p. 118 "Pas devant les soldat jeune"
>
> Incorrect grammar; this should read "les soldats jeunes".
Except that's it's not technically French in the way that Latinium the
language of the Romans here on Earth. That may or may not be the
reason, but I think it's fair enough.
> p 143 "dark-green uniform of the First Battalion of the Zlobenian
> Fifty-Ninth Bowmen"
>
> Different regiments of the Zlobenian army wear differently-colored
> uniforms; see note for p. 7. Dark green uniforms were used by some
> Union sharpshooters during the American Civil War.
Also Sharpe's rifles (or whatever the non-fictional equivalents were,
I'm not sure the extent to how real they were having encountered them so
much in obviously fictional settings), except that if we take this whole
"Borogrovian army == English redcoats, Zlobenian == arbritary foreign
(usually Napoleonic in feel) forces" thing into account they'd be on the
wrong side.
> p. 187 "Charlie"
>
> Another Vietnam reference: during the Vietnam War, the Viet Cong were
> referred to by the abbreviation "VC", or in radio phonetic alphabet
> "Victor Charlie". This was shortened to "Charlie" and the name became
> a common slang term for the enemy during the war.
And, as I understand it, meant that the US forces in 'Nam had to adopt
another C-word ('Cain'?) to use in phonetic terms because of the
ubiquitos use of the original and (presumably) the way it put everyone
on edge as soon as it was used. BICBW.
> p. 189 "She'd roasted some acorns"
>
> During the American Civil War, the Confederacy was blockaded by the
> Union and coffee became almost unobtainable. Soldiers and citizens of
> the Confederacy experimented with, among other things, roasted acorns
> and roasted chicory as substitutes for the beverage.
ISTR the citizens of Paris, and other European cities that I cannot name
at the moment (in particular some Low Countries location, I'm half
remembering), having to resort to the same trick during various periods
of historic besiegity, from middle-ages through to WW2, usually around
the same time as horses, rats and (for the lucky few) the exotic
denizens of megaries started to appear on people's menus.
> p. 220 "the regulation one inch"
>
> A popular urban legend states that the expression "rule of thumb"
> comes from English common law regarding the diameter of a stick with
> which one's wife could be beaten.
> http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/rule_of_thumb.html
> argues that this is purely myth.
Without acces the URL (I'm off-line as I write this) to see if it's
already mentioned, I've heard the alternate explanation is that expert
carpenters and/or masons would measure their lengths by thumb. Whatever
the most likely existing explanation, it's as likely to be even more
obscure than that, however... :)
> p. 278 "Throughout Klatch there are many stories of female warriors"
>
> In 2001 and 2002, the United States embarked on a military adventure
> in Afghanistan. The closing stanza of Rudyard Kipling's "The Young
> British Soldier" reentered the popular consciousness:
>
> "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
> And the women come out to cut up what remains,
> Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
> An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."
Sounds a bit irrelevant to me. Those women are either killing the dying
(either through mercy or hatred) or gathering such valable protein
supplements from the scattered bodies as they can obtain. The line
about the rifle seems to suggest that the women either didn't try to
ensure clean kills/butchery only of the dead or might just not be
skilled enough to make the mercy killings so merciful.
> p. 296 "kneed Prince Heinrich in the fracas"
>
> Recall from TT that "fracas" is only ever used in newspapers; Maj.
> Clogston has apparently read about the incident in the Times.
And another use of poetic synonym/replacement word, especially given the
fact the recruits retain their 'lady-like' dislike of actual explicit
language, to such an extent that in this case an innocent
non-association is responded to in a semi-risque possible
double-entendre manner with "In or about the fracas, sir". This could
be an innocent remark echoing the original meaning, or based upon a
misunderstood word-substitution. The "a sore loser. Very sore
according to rumour," comment hints at the possibility of the subversive
meaning of the words.
> p. 329 "Why did you say you were a cherry pancake?"
>
> John F. Kennedy, speaking in West Berlin, infamously declared "Ich bin
> ein Berliner" - "I am a jam donut". A routine on the matter appears in
> Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill".
I was once approached by a random film crew/interviewer combination in
Berlin with some quick street-poll question I didn't understand. I
stuttered out a quick apology and what (in hindesight) might well have
been taken as "I am a Hungarian Chauffeur" instead of the intended
phrase. They did let me wander on my way, however, without requesting
further details, so I suspect they picked up my distinct disfluency in
the language. :)
Orjan Westin
>> p. 23 "It doesn't mean I can't kick you in the fork."
>>
>> Men being kicked in the genitals will become as dominant a theme as
>> the existence of those genitals.
>
> And it need not be mentioned that there's a whole dual-meaning thing
> going on. Fork => description of the location
> Similarly we have rolled-up socks and the socks/sex (as in "a man's
> sex [organ]") reference.
"Thinking with your cock", perhaps?
>> p. 104 "The candle had been tilted.cans of lamp oil"
>>
>> This passage wass written in light of tightening anti-terrorism
>> legislation throughout the world, legislation which in Britain
>> forbade the distribution of knowledge which might conceivably aid
>> terrorists.
>
> Not sure what the reference is, here.
Let's not tell the terrorists how to set fire to a building. I doubt it,
myself, thinking it more likely that it is a literary device.
>> p. 278 "Throughout Klatch there are many stories of female warriors"
>>
>> In 2001 and 2002, the United States embarked on a military adventure
>> in Afghanistan. The closing stanza of Rudyard Kipling's "The Young
>> British Soldier" reentered the popular consciousness:
>>
>> "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
>> And the women come out to cut up what remains,
>> Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
>> An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."
>
> Sounds a bit irrelevant to me.
Ayup. It's more likely a reference to Amazons.
Orjan
Virgo Pärna
>
> Also Sharpe's rifles (or whatever the non-fictional equivalents were,
> I'm not sure the extent to how real they were having encountered them so
>
Sharpe is fictional character, but 95'th regiment was real and
they really had green uniform. Actually, it is my understanding, that
all British regiments, that used rifles at that time wore green
uniform. That's why captain Frederickson's men from 5'th (?)
battalion of 60'th regiment also wore green.
--
Virgo Pärna
virgo...@mail.ee
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 06/04/2004 03:19 GMT Daylight Time
>"Edmund R. Schluessel" <eschl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> p. 189 "She'd roasted some acorns"
>>
>> During the American Civil War, the Confederacy was blockaded by the
>> Union and coffee became almost unobtainable. Soldiers and citizens of
>> the Confederacy experimented with, among other things, roasted acorns
>> and roasted chicory as substitutes for the beverage.
>
>ISTR the citizens of Paris, and other European cities that I cannot name
>at the moment (in particular some Low Countries location, I'm half
>remembering), having to resort to the same trick during various periods
>of historic besiegity, from middle-ages through to WW2, usually around
>the same time as horses, rats and (for the lucky few) the exotic
>denizens of megaries started to appear on people's menus.
Um, did they even have coffee to miss in the middle ages?
Incidentally, according to FOC, acorn coffee is drunk by dwarfs (or at any rate
sold at Gimlet's) even when there isn't a war.
Daniel Smith
I enjoyed the Annotated Pratchett File on the web since I discovered it
cira. 1998. But I see that annotations to the new DW books haven't been
added since "Carpe Jugulum".
Was a descision made to stop posting these notes on this website? Are the
annotations available elsewhere?
(I have often been forced away from the internet and particularly usenet for
months at a time).
I see that page-referenced annotations are being discussed on this
newsgroup. Will they ever be posted on the net?
Smiffy
Brian Wakeling
slrnc779kt.9v...@dragon.gaiasoft.ee,
Virgo Pärna uttered thus:
Correct. Frederickson was in charge of a Company of the 5/60th
King's American Rifles - so long after the American
Revolution, of course, they were mostly volunteers from
English-controlled Germany.
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
There is a fine line between genius and insanity.
I know this because I've fallen over it several times.
Alfred May
"Brian Wakeling" <bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c52136$2l7epd$1...@ID-188625.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In a speech called
> slrnc779kt.9v...@dragon.gaiasoft.ee,
> Virgo Pärna uttered thus:
> > On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 03:19:04 +0100, Len Oil
> > <len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Also Sharpe's rifles (or whatever the non-fictional
> >> equivalents were, I'm not sure the extent to how real they
> >> were having encountered them so
> >>
> >
> > Sharpe is fictional character, but 95'th regiment was
> > real and
> > they really had green uniform. Actually, it is my
> > understanding, that
> > all British regiments, that used rifles at that time wore
> > green
> > uniform. That's why captain Frederickson's men from 5'th (?)
> > battalion of 60'th regiment also wore green.
>
> Correct. Frederickson was in charge of a Company of the 5/60th
> King's American Rifles - so long after the American
> Revolution, of course, they were mostly volunteers from
> English-controlled Germany.
A slight confusion here, I think.
The 60th Foot (Royal Americans) were a British Line regiment which converted
to rifles and were recruited mainly from the UK<1>, I think you may be
confusing them with the Rifle battalion(s) of the King's German Legion which
recruited (nominally) primarily from Hanover (in effect from anywhere in
Germany).
Regards
Tom
<1> Later, eventually becoming the King's Royal Rifle Corps, I believe
Brion K. Lienhart
news:c5233m$98t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Brian Wakeling" <bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c52136$2l7epd$1...@ID-188625.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > In a speech called
> > slrnc779kt.9v...@dragon.gaiasoft.ee,
> > Virgo Pärna uttered thus:
> > > On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 03:19:04 +0100, Len Oil
> > > <len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Also Sharpe's rifles (or whatever the non-fictional
> > >> equivalents were, I'm not sure the extent to how real they
> > >> were having encountered them so
> > >>
> > >
> > > Sharpe is fictional character, but 95'th regiment was
> > > real and
> > > they really had green uniform. Actually, it is my
> > > understanding, that
> > > all British regiments, that used rifles at that time wore
> > > green
> > > uniform. That's why captain Frederickson's men from 5'th (?)
> > > battalion of 60'th regiment also wore green.
During the US Civil War there was a Confederate commander named Sharpe, and
his men had mostly rifles (which was unusual for the time), and supposedly
were good shots. Hence the term "sharpshooter", or so I've heard. Sharpe is
mentioned as one of the Brigade commanders at this site
http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/Civil_War_in_the_Shenandoah/Civil_War_in_the_Shenandoah.htm
but my web searches keep turning up the book series mentioned above. :)
For more on why British Soldiers didn't want to be captured by Afghan women,
check out Flashman by George MacDonald Fraser. Heck, check it out anyway,
the series is really great.
Brion K. Lienhart
"Brion K. Lienhart" <bri...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tE1dc.1019$A_4...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> During the US Civil War there was a Confederate commander named Sharpe,
and
> his men had mostly rifles (which was unusual for the time), and supposedly
> were good shots. Hence the term "sharpshooter", or so I've heard. Sharpe
is
> mentioned as one of the Brigade commanders at this site
I knew as soon as I sent this I'd find something better. Navy Arms Co sells
reproduction fire arms, including Sharps rifles & carbines. This is from
their site.
Popular with both sides during the War between the States, the Sharps was
one of the first, and one of the best black powder breech loaders. It's
design carried over into the cartridge era with great success.
Col. Hiram Berdan formed his 1st and 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters Regiments early
in the Civil War. The exploits of the green uniformed "Berdan's
Sharpshooters" soon gained them the reputation as the most formidable
fighting unit in the Union Army. Legendary Union sniper " California Joe"
Head was the first sharpshooter to be issued the New Model 1859 Sharps rifle
for test and evaluation. It proved so effective, Col. Berdan ordered 2000
rifles with the optional set triggers. In the hands of these marksmen, the
"Berdan" 1859 Sharps rifle became one of the deadliest weapons of the war.
So, the green uniforms actually tie into the Sharpshooters after all.
Len Oil
> Um, did they even have coffee to miss in the middle ages?
I don't think I quite meant Middle Ages. A quick check reveals that the
established end to the Middle ages is the 15th century, whereas I think
coffee[1] was first seen on the European continent around 1600 or so, so
I'm up to 200 years wrong. I just had the general idea of minstrels
with floppy pointed shoes in less than sanitary conditions (all the
cliches) and thinking it's the time of knights and chivalry when it was
slightly after that but still largely pre-renaissance (or whatever time
of general enlightment I really mean).
[1] That's coffee-bean coffee, anyway. Some iron-age re-enacting place
I once went to had some information on display that (IIRC) was a roasted
and ground wheat or barley thing. Can't remember if it was supposed to
be any good. Acorn coffee seems to be universally detsted, however, and
I suspect that it was only ever drunk theyd run out of their beers, ales
and spirits, unboiled water couldn't be trusted and even boiled water of
that time has an unappetising colour unless you make it even cloudier...
Edmund R. Schluessel
As I understand it, Dragon King of Annotations a.k.a. Leo Breebart is
busy with real life after finishing his degree and doesn't have time
to do a really concerted job at annotations.
Edmund
Martin Watts
bri...@earthlink.net says...
The term Sharpshooter recently came up on a Patrick O'Brian
mailing list I belong to; someone thought it an anachronism to find the
term in use during the Napoleonic Wars. Not so - it predates the ACW and
comes from the early 19th century
Sanity
<eschl...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<1lh970p4g3no2t721...@4ax.com>:
> As I understand it, Dragon King of Annotations a.k.a. Leo Breebart is
> busy with real life after finishing his degree and doesn't have time
> to do a really concerted job at annotations.
Although I think he promised to update the APF last fall, he didn't do so.
it used to be his degree which ate his spare time, don't know what it is
know. But knowing Leo, he's probably got a valid excuse.
Of course, any person who is in possession of preciousss time can help Leo
to maintain the APF. He wouldn't mind that, I'm sure.
TTFN,
Michel AKA Sanity
--
"Sanity shall make ye -ing fret": | "Dolphins! They think they're so
www.affordable-prawns.co.uk | cute! Oh, look at me, I'm a flippy
www.affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk | little dolphin, let me flip for
Check the AFPChess Tournament! | you!" -- Chum
David Chapman
> Of course, any person who is in possession of preciousss time can help Leo
> to maintain the APF. He wouldn't mind that, I'm sure.
S'pose I could. I'm sort of free for a week or two
--
Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't
live anywhere else.
Ryan Dawson
> p. 43 "What We Are Fighting For"
>
> During World War II, director Frank Capra directed a series of six
> propaganda films for the United States entitled "Why We Fight", which
> portrayed the war as a struggle between freedom and slavery.
I think it's more likely that this refers to the Vietnam-era protest
song. The relevant refrain is "One, two, three, what're we fightin' for?"
Orjan Westin
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 23:29:17 -0400, Edmund R. Schluessel wrote:
>> busy with real life after finishing his degree and doesn't have time
>> to do a really concerted job at annotations.
>
> and he said he was "working on it"
He has. He is now assisted by MiQ, who, like Leo, is highly respected and
knowledgeable.
Orjan
Eric Jarvis
Country Joe McDonald...Fixing To Die Rag
"One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, next stop is Vietnam.
Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all going to die."
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
we don't need to make things idiot-proof,
we need to make idiots thing-proof
Edmund R. Schluessel
I already got that; see note for page 163.
Edmund
Cybercat
wrote:
>"One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
No 4?
>Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
No 8^H7a?
It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
--
Tasogare yori mo kuraki mono, chi no nagare yori akaki mono
Toki no nagare ni umoreshi idainaru nannji no na ni oite
Ware koko ni yami ni chikawan
Wareraga mae ni tatifusagarishi subete no orokanaru mono ni
Ware to nanji ga chikara mote hitoshiku horobi o ataen koto o
Darin Johnson
> It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
That's folk music, that is.
--
Darin Johnson
Gravity is a harsh mistress -- The Tick
Eric Jarvis
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:13:15 +0100, Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >"One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
>
> No 4?
>
> >Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
>
> No 8^H7a?
>
> It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
>
the four is sort of at the end of he line...so is the eight...it's rhyming
by implication...my favourite thing about the song
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
all these years I've waited for the revolution
and all we end up getting is spin
Paul E. Jamison
> Cybercat elect...@theglobe.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:13:15 +0100, Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >"One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
> >
> > No 4?
> >
> > >Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
> >
> > No 8^H7a?
> >
> > It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
> >
>
> the four is sort of at the end of he line...so is the eight...it's rhyming
> by implication...my favourite thing about the song
>
I remember a time in high school - 10th through 12th grade for the
majority of the group not from the US - when I heard that song
under interesting circumstances. This was most likely '70 or '71,
when for all practical purposes the 60's were still around. I was
taking a Psychology class, taught by a Phys Ed coach, of all
people; I don't think we learned much psychology. The class
had a few of those long-haired, hippie-type pinko fags (spot the
ref), and they got permission from the teacher to play the
soundtrack from "Woodstock" - I still think it's a terrific film -
on a lazy day. Everything went along fine until it got to this
song - or rather just before it. The "Fish Cheer". Teach got
real irate when he realized what the Word was in the cheer,
and he suspended the record-playing privileges. I always liked
that song after that.
Ah, the 60s. This country could use a generation like that
right about now.
Paul E. Jamison
--
"Who reads, learns, lives the Ferret Way becomes keeper
of light, ennobling outer worlds from one within."
- a prophecy from the Ancients
David Chapman
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:13:15 +0100, Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> "One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
>
> No 4?
>
>> Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
>
> No 8^H7a?
>
> It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
There are no left-out numbers. They just replaced the last digit of the
count with a homonym - for/four, eight/gates. It makes a lot more sense if
you've heard the song.
Tommy
--
Thomas P. Steggell II
www.waywardferrets.com
Help us help a fuzzy!
Order your candle today!
"Paul E. Jamison" <paul...@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:4078CCF9...@infionline.net...
Torak
>
> No 4?
Isn't it "1, 2, 3, what are we fighting 4"?
Sanity
in article <407924A4...@andrew-perry.com>:
Stop confusing the drummers on this group!
Lesley Weston
paul...@infionline.net wrote on 10/04/2004 7:43 PM:
> Eric Jarvis wrote:
>
>
>> Cybercat elect...@theglobe.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:13:15 +0100, Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "One, two, three, what are we fighting for?
>>>
>>> No 4?
>>>
>>>> Five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates,
>>>
>>> No 8^H7a?
>>>
>>> It doesn't really rhyme if you leave out numbers.
>>>
>>
>> the four is sort of at the end of he line...so is the eight...it's rhyming
>> by implication...my favourite thing about the song
>>
>
> I remember a time in high school - 10th through 12th grade for the
> majority of the group not from the US - when I heard that song
> under interesting circumstances. This was most likely '70 or '71,
> when for all practical purposes the 60's were still around.
Most of the sixties happened in the seventies. During the larger part of the
decade 1961-1970, people behaved much as they had in the fifties.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Lesley Weston
David Chapman
> Most of the sixties happened in the seventies.
The most popular definition is that the Sixties began with the hippie
movement and ended with Nixon's resignation, IIRC.
Martin Watts
brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk says...
> Most of the sixties happened in the seventies. During the larger part of the
> decade 1961-1970, people behaved much as they had in the fifties.
That makes sense to me. Likewise, I reckon that 1901 - 1914 were
part of the 19th century and the 20th got going with the First World War.
David Jensen
<MPG.1ae3838f2...@news.tiscali.co.uk>:
I suspect that the 20th will be considered a very short century
1914-1990, but we aren't far enough out of them to know if we are still
of the twentieth century or the nineties were the beginning of the
twenty-first.
Of course Fox appears to think this is still the twentieth.
Paul E. Jamison
Tommy wrote:
>
> "Paul E. Jamison" <paul...@infionline.net> wrote in message
> news:4078CCF9...@infionline.net...
> >
> > I remember a time in high school - 10th through 12th grade for the
> > majority of the group not from the US - when I heard that song
> > under interesting circumstances. This was most likely '70 or '71,
> > when for all practical purposes the 60's were still around. I was
> > taking a Psychology class, taught by a Phys Ed coach, of all
> > people; I don't think we learned much psychology. The class
> > had a few of those long-haired, hippie-type pinko fags (spot the
> > ref), and they got permission from the teacher to play the
> > soundtrack from "Woodstock" - I still think it's a terrific film -
> > on a lazy day. Everything went along fine until it got to this
> > song - or rather just before it. The "Fish Cheer". Teach got
> > real irate when he realized what the Word was in the cheer,
> > and he suspended the record-playing privileges. I always liked
> > that song after that.
> >
> > Ah, the 60s. This country could use a generation like that
> > right about now.
> >
> is that a Charlie Daniels Band reference?
Yep, got it in one! "Uneasy Rider", to be specific.
My, how Charlie Daniels has changed over the years.
Jon
> Most of the sixties happened in the seventies.
Is this some kind of Zen?
--
remove 'notme' to reply
AFPfiance to Ssirienna, chocolate baths a speciality
AFPfilkslave to CCA, talented authoress
Brian Burger
"The long 19th Century" is a bit of a staple of current historical
thinking; the 19th C. is supposed to have started in the 1780s/1790s when
the French/Napoleonic Wars got rolling & to have ended with the start of
the First World War in Aug. 1914, making the 'century' somewhere about 130
years long...
As in another post to this thread, you could argue for "the short 20th C."
as well, I guess. 1914-1990/1991, WW1 to the nominal end of the Cold
War/collapse of the Warsaw Pact, this being when WW1-era events
more-or-less stopped being the primary drivers of world (& esp. European)
history.
As for the 1960s-70s thing, dunno. Before my time personally, and after
the eras I've done a lot of historical reading on! A lot of what is
casually considered 'sixties culture' did get created well into the 70s,
though, or at least in the very late 60s. What we consider "the Sixties"
is more "the late Sixties", in terms of tie-dye, excellent music, pot &
the Pill, etc etc etc. (Could one argue for 'the long 1950s', then?)
Brian.
Eric Jarvis
> žus cwęš Lesley Weston:
>
> > Most of the sixties happened in the seventies.
>
> Is this some kind of Zen?
>
if you have to ask you weren't around in the sixties?
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Rhiannon S
>From: Brian Burger yh...@victoria.tc.ca
>Date: 11/04/2004 19:28 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca>
>
>On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Martin Watts wrote:
>
>> In article <BC9EABC9.23A37%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk>,
>> brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk says...
>> > Most of the sixties happened in the seventies. During the larger part of
>the
>> > decade 1961-1970, people behaved much as they had in the fifties.
>>
>> That makes sense to me. Likewise, I reckon that 1901 - 1914 were
>> part of the 19th century and the 20th got going with the First World War.
>
>"The long 19th Century" is a bit of a staple of current historical
>thinking; the 19th C. is supposed to have started in the 1780s/1790s when
>the French/Napoleonic Wars got rolling & to have ended with the start of
>the First World War in Aug. 1914, making the 'century' somewhere about 130
>years long...
I'd stretch it by another year and have it ending in 1915. Mainly because WW1
was started as another 19thC european war. Then the casualty rate started to
bite and TPTB realised they were fighting something very different.
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net
Jon
> Jon brier...@aol.com wrote:
>> þus cwæð Lesley Weston:
>>
>>> Most of the sixties happened in the seventies.
>>
>> Is this some kind of Zen?
>>
>
> if you have to ask you weren't around in the sixties?
I was only 9 in 69, so fat chance of me partaking of any decadence. Anyway,
the 60s never happened in Oldham /at all/.
Sanity
<da...@dajensen-family.com> wrote in article
<imti70h5qrdqeu606...@4ax.com>:
I most strongly disagree. My feeling tells me that the 90s where very much
part of the 20th century. Perhaps not in terms of the iron curtain being
drawn, but apart from politics the change from 1980s to 1990s wasn't very
noticeable. There was simply too much 20th century fashion, music, and
thinking going on. With the naughties going on for 4 years, only now I am
starting to feel like it's another century. I would place this point
around 2001/2002. If you want to go political, you may choose 11/9/2001.
Even though the events on that day actually brought some good
old-fashioned "us against them" feelings back that we lost in 1990.