-[I]- Has anyone read these?
Sabremeister Brian
Russian flag looked like (long story). As I was in there, I
decided to have a bit of a browse, and came across a couple of
books that looked like they could be good. They were "Space
Captain Smith" and "God Emperor of Didcot", and if the blurb is
anything to go by, they're rather silly crosses between Flashman
and Bill the Galactic Hero. Since money is a bit tight right now,
can anyone tell me if they're worth saving up for?
--
www.sabremeister.me.uk
www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
jester
<bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the
>Russian flag looked like (long story). As I was in there, I
>decided to have a bit of a browse, and came across a couple of
>books that looked like they could be good. They were "Space
>Captain Smith" and "God Emperor of Didcot", and if the blurb is
>anything to go by, they're rather silly crosses between Flashman
>and Bill the Galactic Hero. Since money is a bit tight right now,
>can anyone tell me if they're worth saving up for?
Toby Frost? Nice bloke, good sense of humour, fantastic dress sense :-)
Having had a few bits read by the author, I'd say they're worth a giggle.
Nothing outstandingly amazing, but I've read a lot worse (Piers Anthony,
I'm looking at you)
--
Andy Brown
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Number 15: Krazy Glue and a
toothbrush.
Richard Bos
> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the
> Russian flag looked like (long story).
No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would
have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is
(literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
Richard
Sabremeister Brian
As a prop for a short play we were doing at sacar, we were drawing
a world map, and we had decorated it with a few things to fill in
some of those annoying blank bits where all the water is. One of
the things was a Russian flag, and I knew it was white, blue and
red, but not in which order they went. So at lunchtime I went to
Waterstones to find an atlas or an encyclopedia or a book of flags
to find out.
What's IMWTK?
--
www.sabremeister.me.uk
www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
"Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse."
- Thomas Szasz
Brian Howlett
> What's IMWTK?
http://www.acronymfinder.com/Inquiring-Minds-Want-To-Know-(IMWTK).html
Although I would use "Enquiring".
--
Brian Howlett - Email to From: address deleted unseen
-----------------------------------------------------
"Pride is all very well, but a sausage is a sausage"
The Famous Gaspode, Men at Arms, Terry Pratchett
Anery
Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union.
At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the
white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms
was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of
the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the
Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in
Hungary.
So much for patriotic symbols.
Anery
Nigel Stapley
And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and
Slovenia?
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
Anery
interchangeable.
Anery
Richard Bos
> Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> said:
> > "Sabremeister Brian" <bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the
> >> Russian flag looked like (long story).
> >
> > No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why
> > one would have to go into Waterstones to find out that the
> > Russian flag is (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and
> > IMWTK.
>
> As a prop for a short play we were doing at sacar, we were drawing
> a world map, and we had decorated it with a few things to fill in
> some of those annoying blank bits where all the water is. One of
> the things was a Russian flag, and I knew it was white, blue and
> red, but not in which order they went. So at lunchtime I went to
> Waterstones to find an atlas or an encyclopedia or a book of flags
> to find out.
I see. I had assumed - erroneously - that youwent from home and would
therefore at least have had an internet connecttion on which to look it
up; and therefore assumed that there must have been something unusual
about that specific specimen of Russian flag. Without that assumption,
it does make sense.
Richard
Richard Bos
> Anery wrote:
> > Richard Bos wrote:
> >> "Sabremeister Brian" <bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the
> >>> Russian flag looked like (long story).
> >> No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would
> >> have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is
> >> (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
> >>
> > The Slovak flag used to look like that while Slovakia was part of
> > Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union.
> > At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the
> > white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms
> > was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of
> > the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the
> > Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in
> > Hungary.
> >
> > So much for patriotic symbols.
To be fair, Slovakia hasn't, historically, had a great deal of time to
gather patriottic symbols all of it's own. It's always been owned by one
country or the other, except for the last decade and a half.
> And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and
> Slovenia?
Yup. Slovenia's is smaller, placed more towards the top, and has three
stars over a three-topped mountain in the arms instead of Slovakia's
patriarchal cross standing on a three-topped mountain. I presume it's
the same three-topped mountain, as well (as Anery says, from the
Hungarian coat of arms).
_And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian
flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth
coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday. And
the Czech flag is also red, white and blue, but apparently that is more
or less by accident, and for a change not derived from ours.
Richard
[1] Not Czech
Anery
> Nigel Stapley <u...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
> > > Richard Bos wrote:
>
> To be fair, Slovakia hasn't, historically, had a great deal of time to
> gather patriottic symbols all of it's own. It's always been owned by one
> country or the other, except for the last decade and a half.
>
country or another. The Slovaks are just often reluctant to own up to
their own history.
The medieval Hungary was a multiethnical country where the language of
the nobility was Latin and the commoners spoke some of the multitude
of the region's languages. Even when Hungary or its various parts
became part of the Habsburg Empire, schools were established which
taught in various languages including Slovak, most notably under
Empress Maria Theresa. [1]
Discrimination based on ethnicity began basically in the 19. century.
Consequently, a wave of nationalist revolutions spread throughout the
monarchy, one of the by-products of which was the Slovak coat of arms,
as known today, established in the revolutionary year of 1848.
[0] This contribution has been dedicated to the 91st anniversary of
the establishment of Czechoslovakia by the voluntary merging of
Bohemia, Moravia, part of Silesia, and Slovakia into a common state in
October 28th, 1918.)
[1] Which was a serious contestant in the survey for the greatest
Slovak in 2005. Why not, in the Czech republic the title of the
greatest Czech would have been won by a fictional figure (Jara
Cimrman), weren't he disqualified with the banal excuse that he was
not real.[2]
[2] I've never written a post with so many feetneet.[3]
[3] What's happened to Len Oil?
> > And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and
> > Slovenia?
>
> Yup. Slovenia's is smaller, placed more towards the top, and has three
> stars over a three-topped mountain in the arms instead of Slovakia's
> patriarchal cross standing on a three-topped mountain. I presume it's
> the same three-topped mountain, as well (as Anery says, from the
> Hungarian coat of arms).
I'm not sure but I think it symbolizes Slovenia's highest mountain
Triglav, which means "three-headed".
> _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian
> flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth
> coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday.
Which Peter and what's the connection?
> And the Czech flag is also red, white and blue, but apparently that is more
> or less by accident, and for a change not derived from ours.
>
The Czech flag was originally just white over red, identically to the
flag of Poland. With the formation of Czechoslovakia, the blue
triangle was added to symbolize the joining of Slovakia.
After the splitting of Czechoslovakia the Czech Republic kept the
Czechoslovak flag, which caused dismay among some of the Slovaks.
Anery
Richard Bos
> On 28 =C5=99=C3=ADj, 11:52, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> > _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian
> > flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth
> > coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday.
>
> Which Peter and what's the connection?
Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's
flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one. He went on
a trip to the Dutch provinces and England to learn the craft of
shipmaking, and to investigate the organisation of navies, because he
thought that Russia needed one. That part of it is undisputed. What is
not as certain is that he then also decided that Russia would need a
flag, to fly from his new ships. This flag he derived directly from the
flag of the country where he had learned to build the ships, but with
rearranged colours. Whether that last part is true is not quite as
certain as the first, but it does have the advantage of being quite
possible, and by all accounts quite like him (i.e., quick, simple, and
without much care for old Russian traditions). The connection with
(almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, that the Russian
colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
Richard
Anery
combination of the Dutch and the Hungarian ones? Great.
I'm sure the voters of the Slovak National Party would be delighted to
know. <g>
Anery
Richard Bos
> Richard Bos wrote:
> > Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's
> > flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one.
> > The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course,
> > that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
> >
> So what you are actually suggesting is that the Slovak flag is a
> combination of the Dutch and the Hungarian ones? Great.
> I'm sure the voters of the Slovak National Party would be delighted to
> know. <g>
Yup :-)
And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives
from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed
to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a
German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian-
Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from
his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't
know.
Richard
[1] As always with traditions going back this far, reality and legend
are hard to separate. It appearse that flags of various patterns of
red, white and blue were present well before the house of Orange-
Nassau became the most important in Dutch nobility. But even if the
derivation is contrived, the association is real and long-standing.
[2] The pun is accidental, but works in Dutch as well as it does in
French, English and other languages. The principality gets its name
from the Roman city of Arausio; the colour from the fruit, and that
from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
Alec Cawley
I heard that the French version ot the Tricolor is the blue and white of
the Ancien Regime dipped in the blood of the revolution, which is why
the red is at the flying end.
SeekUp
"Richard Bos" <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote
> the colour from the fruit, and that
> from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
But....what was the word for the colour before that?
Anery
> Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote:
>
> > Richard Bos wrote:
>
> > > Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's
> > > flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one.
>
> > > The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course,
> > > that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
> > >
when there was a variation in the order of colours in the Slovak flag,
one version of which was indeed identical to the Dutch one, until they
definitively made up their mind.
OTOH, the Croatians claim theirs was not influenced by the pan-Slavic
movement (and thus by Peter the Great etc.) but was derived from the
coats of arms of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. At the time it
originated, they weren't bothered by the fact that the Dutch flag was
identical, as they were part of the Habsburg Monarchy which had its
own symbols.
>
> And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives
> from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed
> [2] The pun is accidental, but works in Dutch as well as it does in
> French, English and other languages. The principality gets its name
> from the Roman city of Arausio; the colour from the fruit, and that
> from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
It would almost work in Slovak as well, but for the overzealous
linguists who have insisted that instead of the adjective "oranzovy",
the word "pomarancovy" should be used. As, shurely, the prefix pom- or
the word arancia are original Slovak words, used already by Prince
Pribina in Great Moravia, one thousand years ago. I have yet to wait
to actually hear it spoken by real people, but, at least, we have
another thing in which we Differ From the Czechs.
Anery
Richard Bos
Probably yellow-red, just like the word for turquoise presumably used to
be blue-green or green-blue before the Turks arrived in Asia Minor.
Richard
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Yellowish-red, probably.
You'd be amazed how people get by without names for certain colours. Many
languages don't distinguish between blue and green. The word "pink" was
first used to describe a colour in the 17th century (and probably not the
colour we currently call pink, but a yellowish-green). Some cultures see
light blue and dark blue as seperate colours, and are presumably baffled
that we don't.
--
Dave
"All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
Richard Bos
> Richard Bos wrote:
> > And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives
> > from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed
> > to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a
> > German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian-
> > Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from
> > his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't
> > know.
> I heard that the French version ot the Tricolor is the blue and white of
> the Ancien Regime dipped in the blood of the revolution, which is why
> the red is at the flying end.
I've never heard that one, and wouldn't believe it, for two reasons.
First, the most common and pretty well documented story is that it was
an intentional combination of the red-and-blue of Paris, where the first
(non-bloody!) phase of the revolution started, with the white of the
Bourbon dynasty (which they didn't yet want to depose entirely, but put
on a constitutional base as in the modern UK and Netherlands).
Second, the flag of the Ancien Regime wasn't impaled blue and white at
all. Depending on the context, monarchist France used either the pure
white of the Bourbons, or the France Ancient or France Modern which you
can also find in the UKian coats of arms of Anne and before: entirely
blue, at first sem� de lys d'or, later with three golden boyscouts. Not
only were those, TTBOMK, never combined on one flag, but certainly the
fleurs de lys were never omitted from the blue flag.
Richard
Alec Cawley
I had though that they were white fleurs-de-lys on a blue background,
giving the blue and white. But I am certainly not confident of that - it
is merely the tale which had stuck in my head.