The Last Continent
2 Badsey Fields Lane
excuse just to socialize.
Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not much
content? It doesn't build up to anything!
Anyway, reply to me if you think I'm right, or argue with me :)
Jonathan Ellis
2 Badsey Fields Lane wrote in message
<7jaq5j$bpn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is it
an
>excuse just to socialize.
about the books, as precious little else either does or should go on
there. alt.fan.pratchett is the place where we can talk about other
things as well.
>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
much
>content? It doesn't build up to anything!
How much content do you want? If you're looking for A Message That
Means Something, you might find it in *some* of his later books - Jingo,
Carpe Jugulum, Small Gods, possibly some of the Watch books. Pterry is
not noted for putting serious messages in every book. Just read it,
enjoy the fun and spot the references. "Pyramids", for instance, doesn't
particularly build up to anything, unless you count Pteppic's inhuming
of the pyramid - and that can be compared to Rincewind's whirling of the
old man's bullroarer which finally causes the rain to return to XXXX
after many thousands of years (in a sense, *that* is what the book is
building up to: the return of The Wet, as caused by Rincewind.)
And yes, all the changes in time do actually make sense, and things
do indeed happen in the right order even allowing for the wizards being
flung back in time.
Jonathan.
Miq
> wrote
(I can't believe I'm replying to a post by a house...)
>Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is it an
>excuse just to socialize.
This and much much much more is explained in the numerous FAQs. May I
suggest you spend a little while reading the ones marked 'hello: welcome
to alt.fan.pratchett', last posted yesterday?
>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
(Don't we all?) So welcome to afp, look around, read the rules and have
fun.
>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not much
>content? It doesn't build up to anything!
What sort of content are you looking for?
'The Last Continent' is the latest, possibly the last, in the Rincewind
series. Most of these have been, more or less, pisstakes on the classic
'heroic quest' school of fantasy; the fun of the book, apart from all
the Aussie references (which are easy enough to spot) is in Terry
playing games with this form of story.
Try comparing Rincewind with, say, Frodo Baggins, or Thomas Covenant.
You might be surprised at what you notice.
--
Miq
Kevin Hackett
>it an excuse just to socialize.
Eeep. Timing is impeccable. Ask this a few days ago and it would've been
like going into a Kennedy newsgroup and asking 'So, does anyone know if
Oswald really did it?' :-)
I think you can pretty much generalise that afp is an excuse to socialise,
but the more talk about the Discworld the better. I tend to find that
there's a rush of [R]elevant threads when a new book comes out, which
gradually reduces over time. At the moment you'd be hard put to find your
[R]s with an atlas. :-)
>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
>much content? It doesn't build up to anything!
Well, I found TLC [1] a lot more light than most, but that didn't make me
enjoy it any less. I felt that he'd switched back to using more jokes that
wit, and the more variety the better. I can now read different books to
find different moods, as well as different stories. Carpe Jugulum for dark
moods, The Last Continent for fluff, Reaper Man for pathos [2], any of them
for fun or emotion (there have been scenes in some books that've left a lump
in my throat, especially some bits in FoC and M@A)
I found afterwards (well, when I say I found, I mean Tamar [3] worked it out
and let us know) that there's more to the whole time-travel stuff than meets
the eye. Of course, this was I while ago and my memory has trouble with
last Thursday (think the barbeque and company tab at the pub may have
contributed :::=}} ), but maybe if you ask her nicely she'll tell you?
>Anyway, reply to me if you think I'm right, or argue with me :)
Oh, we can do both around here, usually in the same sentence :-)
Cheers,
Kevin
Back so often my front's getting lonely
[1] We're lazy here, so abbreviations get used a lot. I'm even lazier,
which means I let someone else work them out.
[2] 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
means'. Is it the right word? I mean the way you really feel for the
character and can understand what he's going through. Prolly knot.
[3] Tamar. Font of Knowledge (like Fount, but not in such a rush), and
Keeper of the Sacred 'Oh yes, I never thought of that!'. I've got a nasty
feeling Pterry phones her to ask her what bits of his book mean.
tug
2 Badsey Fields Lane <mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7jaq5j$bpn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is it an
> excuse just to socialize.
> has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not much
> content? It doesn't build up to anything!
tug
only realise that the beer and vegetable soup was vegemite after the guards
put it on a sabdwich and sold it?
Jonathan Ellis <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7jat5e$9aq$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> an
> >excuse just to socialize.
> about the books, as precious little else either does or should go on
> there. alt.fan.pratchett is the place where we can talk about other
> things as well.
>
> >has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
> much
> >content? It doesn't build up to anything!
tug
subplotical humour.
Kevin Hackett <kev...@robotribe.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7jb3dt$k4$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> 2 Badsey Fields Lane wrote in message
<7jaq5j$bpn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is
> >it an excuse just to socialize.
>
> like going into a Kennedy newsgroup and asking 'So, does anyone know if
> Oswald really did it?' :-)
>
> I think you can pretty much generalise that afp is an excuse to socialise,
> but the more talk about the Discworld the better. I tend to find that
> there's a rush of [R]elevant threads when a new book comes out, which
> gradually reduces over time. At the moment you'd be hard put to find your
> [R]s with an atlas. :-)
>
> >has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
> >much content? It doesn't build up to anything!
>
>
> enjoy it any less. I felt that he'd switched back to using more jokes
that
> wit, and the more variety the better. I can now read different books to
> find different moods, as well as different stories. Carpe Jugulum for
dark
> moods, The Last Continent for fluff, Reaper Man for pathos [2], any of
them
> for fun or emotion (there have been scenes in some books that've left a
lump
> in my throat, especially some bits in FoC and M@A)
>
> I found afterwards (well, when I say I found, I mean Tamar [3] worked it
out
> and let us know) that there's more to the whole time-travel stuff than
meets
> the eye. Of course, this was I while ago and my memory has trouble with
> last Thursday (think the barbeque and company tab at the pub may have
> contributed :::=}} ), but maybe if you ask her nicely she'll tell you?
>
>
>
Raphael Kirschke
There
should
be
some
spoiler
space
here,
yesno?
>fuck me do you know all these things off by heart? was i the only one to
>only realise that the beer and vegetable soup was vegemite after the guards
>put it on a sabdwich and sold it?
I think nobody gets all the references on the first reading -
It took me three times till I noticed the (totally obvious) meaning of
the boomerang the Creator throws at the end of the book.
Raphael
--
"Fantasy is like alcohol - too much is bad for you,
a little bit makes the world a better place."
(Terry Pratchett)
Barry Vaughan
<mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not much
>content?
I'd agree with that. Most of the jokes were so 'guessable',
Rincewind's story was just a series of barely connected
references to popular Australian films or TV (and Vegemite).
The Dibbler character could have been good, but the irony in
the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
more with it than that.
To me it had "this'll pay the mortgage" written all over it.
The real pity is that there was a rather good Wizards story in
there that was drowned out by all the Aussie crap.
Barry
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fear attracts the fearful. He was trying to overcome his fear
by crushing you. Be less afraid. - Anakin Skywalker - The Phantom Menace
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ba...@samael.demon.co.uk
Disk Daemon
>i thought it was damn funny and good
Just a quick note, which others may find informative as well.
You are posting from Outlook Express 5 <paranoia>(yes, we can tell)
</paranoia> and so OE (Outlook Express) does some things "badly". Other
things also require some brain power applied.
Basically, when posting, please try to remove the quoted text that is
irrelevant to what you're replying about. This is because there are many
messages on the newsgroups, and a large majority of people have to pay
for what they download (even if they don't read it).
Then place your response below the quoted text.
Quoted text begins with the ">" symbol, an example of which follows.
<start example>
Paul wrote
>Disk Daemon posted
>>this is an example of quoted text
>I Paul would like it known that Disk Daemon wrote the above.
<end example>
a blank line to seperate the quoted text from your text helps too.
Take a look at other posts in the newsgroup while trying to follow those
general guidelines and you shouldn't do too badly. It's all a part of
what's called netiquette (making things easy to understand).
If you follow the above, your posts should then be a lot easier for
people to read, which after all is the object of posting, yes?
Paul Wilkins
Richard Eney
In article <1W6MZNAM...@samael.demon.co.uk>,
Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 2 Badsey Fields Lane <mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
>>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
>>much content?
>
>I'd agree with that. Most of the jokes were so 'guessable',
>Rincewind's story was just a series of barely connected
>references to popular Australian films or TV (and Vegemite).
>The Dibbler character could have been good, but the irony in
>the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
>attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
>more with it than that.
>
>To me it had "this'll pay the mortgage" written all over it.
>
>The real pity is that there was a rather good Wizards story in
>there that was drowned out by all the Aussie crap.
"Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
<stereotype semi-ignorant person> who finally read Shakespeare and thought
it was just a lot of well-known quotations and cliches strung together.
Aussie stuff? Oh yes, there was some of that; I was busy enjoying the
top-notch time-travel story (the wizards, as you say) and the advanced
Eastern and Western philsophy and religion. (And of course Aussie native
religion, whatever they want to call themselves.) The Aussie stuff does
rather disguise the other good stuff Pterry has, as usual, sneaked into
the book. He does that, you know - he hides stuff in plain sight in all
the books. He'll put in a really serious statement and shove a joke in
the next sentence so you forget the serious bit immediately and don't
notice the heavy stuff.
TLC:
Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
This is straight out of Eastern meditation, only it's usually said the
other way: once you've achieved Buddhahood, you will always have been
Buddha, and eventually everyone will achieve Buddhahood. Terry adds the
corollary; since everyone will eventually do it, we all have to do it,
because we've all already done it, we just don't know it yet. And Terry
adds the further information: knowing that you're going to do it doesn't
make it any easier to do.
Rincewind completes his task after he faces up to Death (more or less in
absentia but he does it).
Various Western religions and philosophies get into it too:
Rincewind wanders in the desert, performs apparent miracles with the
help of a god (miracles: survival at all, sheep shearing etc), is a kind
patron of animals and receives miraculous food and help from one (compare
St. Francis), is Chosen for a task, transcends time, and brings the rain
and hence the rainbow, restoring fertility to the land.
The book also has discussions-by-example of several other kinds of gods
and religions (besides Tibetan Buddhism, in which you re-create yourself
as an advanced being, and transcend time in the process), such as:
creator who creates separate and individual creations by envisioning
them (the old man with the sack); creator who creates by separate and
individual creations by biomechanics (Victorian-era fundamentalism);
creator who got the idea of evolution (and sex); the specific creator
mentioned by (scientist's name) who "is inordinately fond of beetles";
gods who con their worshipers (obviously smaller gods but maybe also
creators of their own worshipers); creation by committee (the Wizards and
the platypus); the Trickster god.
There is some discussion of the spread of life to new land, based
somewhat on the way newly-arisen islands begin to have life forms arrive,
and somewhat on the theories of the spread of animal life before the
"discovery" of continental drift, which wasn't accepted theory until the
mid-20th century.
And of course the time-travel story, complete with discussion of the
mechanics of the paradoxes inherent in time travel, and a wormhole in
space thrown in for good measure.
At the end of TLC Rincewind has met his probable family, been named as a
demon[1], and then as a wizard (by not being denied as such) in front of
the faculties of both universities, and is on the way home as an
acknowledged wizard.
[1] Once it's been done once, it's easier for it to happen again, and it
was done the first time with Rincewind in Eric. Compare Greebo's problem.
Rincewind may have a little problem in future. ;-)
=Tamar
co. & Ponder Stibbons
>Okay, this now has mega-SPOILERS in it for TLC.
But not quite enough so I'll add some
>
>
>
>
>In article <1W6MZNAM...@samael.demon.co.uk>,
>Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> 2 Badsey Fields Lane <mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>>Anyway.I'm new here, but I wanna know something...
>>>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
>>>much content?
>>
>>I'd agree with that. Most of the jokes were so 'guessable',
>>Rincewind's story was just a series of barely connected
>>references to popular Australian films or TV (and Vegemite).
<snip>
>>The real pity is that there was a rather good Wizards story in
>>there that was drowned out by all the Aussie crap.
>
> "Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
<snip irony re people's ignorance>
>the book. He does that, you know - he hides stuff in plain sight in all
>the books. He'll put in a really serious statement and shove a joke in
>the next sentence so you forget the serious bit immediately and don't
>notice the heavy stuff.
A bit like subliminal advertising! ;-)
>TLC:
> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>This is straight out of Eastern meditation, only it's usually said the
<snip>
> Rincewind completes his task after he faces up to Death (more or less in
>absentia but he does it).
>
>Various Western religions and philosophies get into it too:
<snip awsome examples >
> There is some discussion of the spread of life to new land, based
>somewhat on the way newly-arisen islands begin to have life forms arrive,
>and somewhat on the theories of the spread of animal life before the
>"discovery" of continental drift, which wasn't accepted theory until the
>mid-20th century.
>
> And of course the time-travel story, complete with discussion of the
>mechanics of the paradoxes inherent in time travel, and a wormhole in
>space thrown in for good measure.
<snip possible future books ;-)>
Tamar, you are brilliant! I am humble before your greatness!
You have made me want go back and re-read the book immediately.
I am sorry to have posted what is basically an OLF spread out over the
post! I would like to have said more than 'AOL' but, IMVeryHO, you
have said it all, and so much better than I could have done.
*Respec' Due!*
--
Elaine, afphianced to Stephen, official *afptreasure*(tm), John, Matt and AfPhantom,
and eternally, undyingly afpbeloved of Karl.
*At One* with Mad Dragon and Heaven, with all that implies!
The Things are also People
Robin May
2 Badsey Fields Lane wrote in message <7jaq5j$bpn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is it an
>excuse just to socialize.
>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not much
>
important events at the end but I though the Last Continent just fizzled out.
That's my opinion.
Barry Vaughan
<dic...@Radix.Net> writes
>Okay, this now has mega-SPOILERS in it for TLC.
>
>
>
>
>Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> 2 Badsey Fields Lane <mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
>>>much content?
>>
>>Rincewind's story was just a series of barely connected
>>references to popular Australian films or TV (and Vegemite).
>>the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
>>attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
>>more with it than that.
>>
>>To me it had "this'll pay the mortgage" written all over it.
>>
>>there that was drowned out by all the Aussie crap.
>
> "Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
>it was just a lot of well-known quotations and cliches strung together.
>
But then in Shakespeare's case he invented the quotations and
clichés in the first place. The analogy really doesn't stand
up to investigation.
> Aussie stuff? Oh yes, there was some of that; I was busy enjoying the
>top-notch time-travel story (the wizards, as you say) and the advanced
>Eastern and Western philsophy and religion. (And of course Aussie native
>religion, whatever they want to call themselves.) The Aussie stuff does
>rather disguise the other good stuff Pterry has, as usual, sneaked into
>the book. He does that, you know - he hides stuff in plain sight in all
>the books. He'll put in a really serious statement and shove a joke in
>the next sentence so you forget the serious bit immediately and don't
>notice the heavy stuff.
>
Indeed. Only usually he does it somewhat better than he does
in this book.
>TLC:
> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>This is straight out of Eastern meditation,
Nah! That's Doctor Who you're thinking of.
Or indeed any cheap Sci-fi.
Or anything that discusses time travel and it's inherent paradoxes.
In fact, the way that it is stated owes more to decades of rewrites
of HG Well's Time Machine than it does to Buddhism.
>only it's usually said the
>other way: once you've achieved Buddhahood, you will always have been
>Buddha, and eventually everyone will achieve Buddhahood. Terry adds the
>corollary; since everyone will eventually do it, we all have to do it,
>because we've all already done it, we just don't know it yet. And Terry
>adds the further information: knowing that you're going to do it doesn't
>make it any easier to do.
>
And knowing that the Doctor will ultimately defeat the Daleks
doesn't make it less exciting when they first appear at the end of
episode one. This is the principle behind every serial.
You know the good guy's going to win, you just don't know how.
I think you're reading too much into the possible connection with
eastern religions.
> Rincewind completes his task after he faces up to Death (more or less in
>absentia but he does it).
>
>Various Western religions and philosophies get into it too:
> Rincewind wanders in the desert, performs apparent miracles with the
>help of a god (miracles: survival at all, sheep shearing etc),
Survive at all! That's clutching at straws in the miracle sense
of things, don't you think? That leaves the sheep shearing.
The least said about that the better.
>is a kind
>patron of animals and receives miraculous food and help from one (compare
>St. Francis), is Chosen for a task,
The oldest adventure story cliché known to man.
>transcends time, and brings the rain
>and hence the rainbow, restoring fertility to the land.
>
> The book also has discussions-by-example of several other kinds of gods
>and religions (besides Tibetan Buddhism, in which you re-create yourself
>as an advanced being, and transcend time in the process), such as:
> creator who creates separate and individual creations by envisioning
>them (the old man with the sack); creator who creates by separate and
>individual creations by biomechanics (Victorian-era fundamentalism);
>creator who got the idea of evolution (and sex); the specific creator
>mentioned by (scientist's name) who "is inordinately fond of beetles";
>gods who con their worshipers (obviously smaller gods but maybe also
>creators of their own worshipers); creation by committee (the Wizards and
>the platypus); the Trickster god.
This is one of the better bits. It's basically the "Wizards" storyline
up to the point where they get to XXXX. At which point we get the
"Platypus" joke, which is so laboured it's unbelievable. The cockroach
(not beetle) joke was bad enough, but this was one you just couldn't
fail to see coming.
>
> There is some discussion of the spread of life to new land, based
>somewhat on the way newly-arisen islands begin to have life forms arrive,
>and somewhat on the theories of the spread of animal life before the
>"discovery" of continental drift, which wasn't accepted theory until the
>mid-20th century.
>
There are a few interesting references thrown in, but ultimately
this book is all references and little or no original story.
The worst thing, in my opinion, was the Peach Melba joke, which
just ran on and on and had nothing that could be called a punchline
at the end of it. That might have been the worst, but too much of
this book is made up of the same type of lazy space filler.
The whole thing is way below Terry's usual standards, if this
had been the first book he had written I don't think it would
have been accepted by the publisher.
Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
Barry.
Suzi
(Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk) wibbled...
[Biiiiiiig Snip]
> The whole thing is way below Terry's usual standards, if this
> had been the first book he had written I don't think it would
> have been accepted by the publisher.
>
> Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
> in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
This person thought it was one hell of a lot better than Jingo, which
she didn't really find that amusing or entertaining (at a first read -
and I haven't bothered with that one of going back for the second read).
Jingo had a massively hurried ending and didn't, to me, feel "complete"
- so in comparison TLC was a masterpiece.
Suzi
--
Need help with afp?... mail the clue fairies afp-...@lspace.org
New to afp? point your browser at http://www.lspace.org/
New to Usenet posting? browse http://psg.com/emily.html
The Irrelevant page: http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/index.html
Miq
** Heavy SPOILERS for _The Last Continent_ **
On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk>
wrote
>In article <7jd5od$9re$1...@saltmine.radix.net>, Richard Eney
><dic...@Radix.Net> writes
>> "Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
>><stereotype semi-ignorant person> who finally read Shakespeare and thought
>>it was just a lot of well-known quotations and cliches strung together.
>
>But then in Shakespeare's case he invented the quotations and
>clichés in the first place. The analogy really doesn't stand
>up to investigation.
Umm... I think one of you has missed the other's point here completely,
and I'm not even going to speculate about who...
>>TLC:
>> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>>This is straight out of Eastern meditation,
>
>Nah! That's Doctor Who you're thinking of.
>
>Or indeed any cheap Sci-fi.
>
>Or anything that discusses time travel and it's inherent paradoxes.
>
>In fact, the way that it is stated owes more to decades of rewrites
>of HG Well's Time Machine than it does to Buddhism.
I'm inclined to agree that the connection to Eastern philosophy is
tenuous - it's a fairly widespread idea. But Terry's take on it does
add something.
"Rincewind is told that he's going to do something because he's already
done it." The important phrase here is "is told". Not only do *we*
know he's going to succeed, but *he* knows it himself.
Rincewind knows more than anyone on the Disc about Fate and L^HThe Lady;
he's met one, and spent his life trying to run away from the other. He
knows that he's going to complete the quest, so it doesn't really matter
what he does. So, he tells himself, he might as well try to make it as
pleasant as possible, which he does by trying to run away from
everything that looks even vaguely unpleasant. Like the quest itself.
Last time we discussed TLC, I made much of the scene where the road
bandits steal Rincewind's hat. I still think he knows, at this point,
that something is likely to happen - the whole of his career has been
full of that sort of apparently random happening.
And that's the point. Rincewind has noticed this. In 'Interesting
Times', he started to put two and two together in this respect; now he's
sure.
>And knowing that the Doctor will ultimately defeat the Daleks
>doesn't make it less exciting when they first appear at the end of
>episode one. This is the principle behind every serial.
>You know the good guy's going to win, you just don't know how.
Yes, but the Doctor himself doesn't know it - or at least he acts as if
he doesn't.
>>Various Western religions and philosophies get into it too:
>> Rincewind wanders in the desert, performs apparent miracles with the
>>help of a god (miracles: survival at all, sheep shearing etc),
>
>Survive at all! That's clutching at straws in the miracle sense
>of things, don't you think? That leaves the sheep shearing.
>The least said about that the better.
Lessee... there's stumbling into water, finding chicken sandwiches under
rocks, riding up a vertical cliff face, defeating the road gang...
that's enough to justify an 'etc.', surely?
>>is a kind
>>patron of animals and receives miraculous food and help from one (compare
>>St. Francis), is Chosen for a task,
>
>The oldest adventure story cliché known to man.
Exactly! That's what makes it good.
Terry doesn't write 'original' stories. Offhand, I can't think of a
single idea I've seen for the first time in one of his books. What he
writes - and writes brilliantly - is new and unexpected takes on old
ideas. In that respect, TLC is brilliant.
>Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
>in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
Personally I think it's easily the best book since 'Hogfather', and
probably one of my top five, though I'd need to think hard about that.
;o)
--
Miq
Richard Eney
Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7jd5od$9re$1...@saltmine.radix.net>, Richard Eney
><dic...@Radix.Net> writes
>>Okay, this now has mega-SPOILERS in it for TLC.
>>Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 2 Badsey Fields Lane <mi...@2badseyfl.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>>>has anyone else read 'The Last Continent' and found that there's not
>>>>much content?
>>>I'd agree with that. Most of the jokes were so 'guessable',
>>>Rincewind's story was just a series of barely connected
>>>references to popular Australian films or TV (and Vegemite).
<snip>
>>>To me it had "this'll pay the mortgage" written all over it.
>>>
>>>The real pity is that there was a rather good Wizards story in
>>>there that was drowned out by all the Aussie crap.
>>
>> "Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
>><stereotype semi-ignorant person> who finally read Shakespeare and thought
>>it was just a lot of well-known quotations and cliches strung together.
>
>But then in Shakespeare's case he invented the quotations and
>clichés in the first place. The analogy really doesn't stand
>up to investigation.
The analogy is to someone who doesn't see that there is serious structure
and intent beneath the surface. It's been a common criticism of
Shakespeare that he 'stole' his plots - and yes, of course he did,
generations of scholars have traced where the bits came from. It's
what he did with them that counts.
<snip>
>> He does that, you know - he hides stuff in plain sight in all
>>the books. He'll put in a really serious statement and shove a joke in
>>the next sentence so you forget the serious bit immediately and don't
>>notice the heavy stuff.
>Indeed. Only usually he does it somewhat better than he does
>in this book.
>
>>TLC:
>> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>>This is straight out of Eastern meditation,
>
>Nah! That's Doctor Who you're thinking of. Or indeed any cheap Sci-fi.
>Or anything that discusses time travel and it's inherent paradoxes.
>In fact, the way that it is stated owes more to decades of rewrites
>of HG Well's Time Machine than it does to Buddhism.
Sigh. Shows how much you know about Buddhism. Not that I'm advanced in
it, but I have spent close to 15 years studying. Dr. Who, like other SF,
owes a great deal to ideas that have been cross-fertilizing between East
and West for at least a century.
>>only it's usually said the
>>other way: once you've achieved Buddhahood, you will always have been
>>Buddha, and eventually everyone will achieve Buddhahood. Terry adds the
>>corollary; since everyone will eventually do it, we all have to do it,
>>because we've all already done it, we just don't know it yet. And Terry
>>adds the further information: knowing that you're going to do it doesn't
>>make it any easier to do.
>
>And knowing that the Doctor will ultimately defeat the Daleks
>doesn't make it less exciting when they first appear at the end of
>episode one. This is the principle behind every serial.
>You know the good guy's going to win, you just don't know how.
The statement above, about the time paradox inherent in completing the
Buddhist path, is taken _directly_ from my studies of Buddhism, and not
from Dr. Who or any other SF story. It is a major element of the belief
system. It is told to serious students as encouragement - it may take
thousands of lifetimes, but you will succeed eventually - but you still
have to do the work.
>I think you're reading too much into the possible connection with
>eastern religions.
YMMV. When a book has as many examples of different concepts of god in it
as TLC does (and it isn't the first time Terry's done this, either,
compare SG and Hf), it is hard to ignore something that obvious. TLC
comes right after a book based largely on Asian history, for which Terry
did a great deal of research; it seems reasonable to accept that he also
did research on the local belief systems.
>> Rincewind completes his task after he faces up to Death (more or less in
>>absentia but he does it).
>>
>>Various Western religions and philosophies get into it too:
>> Rincewind wanders in the desert, performs apparent miracles with the
>>help of a god (miracles: survival at all, sheep shearing etc),
>
>Survive at all! That's clutching at straws in the miracle sense
>of things, don't you think?
Terry says specifically in TLC that Rincewind survived only because of the
help given him by the Trickster, and the Trickster complained that it was
extremely hard work keeping Rincewind alive. Survival solely because you
are being given help by a god (at the behest of a major god) ought to
qualify as a miracle, surely?
>>is a kind patron of animals
>>and receives miraculous food and help from one (compare
>>St. Francis), is Chosen for a task,
>
>The oldest adventure story cliché known to man.
Not to mention the basis of at least one major religion, that being
Judaism. Or haven't you heard of the phrase, the chosen people? (BTW, my
name happens to be Biblical but not for religious reasons.)
>>transcends time, and brings the rain
>>and hence the rainbow, restoring fertility to the land.
>> The book also has discussions-by-example of several other kinds of gods
>>and religions (besides Tibetan Buddhism, in which you re-create yourself
>>as an advanced being, and transcend time in the process), such as:
<snip for bandwidth>
>>creation by committee (the Wizards and the platypus); the Trickster god.
>This is one of the better bits. It's basically the "Wizards" storyline
>up to the point where they get to XXXX. At which point we get the
>"Platypus" joke, which is so laboured it's unbelievable. The cockroach
>(not beetle) joke was bad enough, but this was one you just couldn't
>fail to see coming.
As I said, Terry does that to hide the heavy stuff. He will stick in the
oldest jokes he can find, as long as they relate to his theme, in order to
disguise the serious writing. You have to admit, the platypus joke
relates to the idea of special creations. So does the camel version
(horse created by committee), but he used camels for the 'came ashore with
driftwood' discussion.
>There are a few interesting references thrown in, but ultimately
>this book is all references and little or no original story.
>The worst thing, in my opinion, was the Peach Melba joke, which
>just ran on and on and had nothing that could be called a punchline
>at the end of it. That might have been the worst, but too much of
>this book is made up of the same type of lazy space filler.
When something puzzles you, figure out a good reason for it to be there.
Sometimes you'll guess correctly. The Peach Melba sequence did one thing
very well: it gave Rincewind some real time to catch his breath. It also
gave Terry a chance to work in another local Aussie reference, the Sydney
opera house, and use up a joke that was left over from Maskerade, where it
wouldn't have fit. He'd already used the fact that the cheap seats at the
opera are called "the gods" because they're so high up that you get to see
the audience as well as the action, and get a good look at the ceiling.
Besides, the story about the dessert is precisely true, the chef was at
his wits' end until he looked around at the available leftovers. Terry
just added a "what if": what if Dame Nellie Melba had suffered with a less
elegant sounding name, one which would sound funny no matter what you did
with it? Or did you somehow miss the series of music-hall punchlines?
Terry does write in jokes on several levels.
>The whole thing is way below Terry's usual standards, if this
>had been the first book he had written I don't think it would
>have been accepted by the publisher.
Oh, I think it would have been accepted, though he might have had to offer
it to an Aussie publisher. But a major point is that it is _not_ his
first book. It is also not quite as much a standalone as most of the
others. Essentially, it is the second half of IT, just as TLF is the
second half of TCoM. TLC is also harder to deal with as a 'first time I
read Terry' story, because more than usual, it requires that the reader
either be able to accept mysterious elements very easily, or have read
earlier work by him. In that way it may belong more firmly in the SF
genre than some of his earlier books, as the SF genre has a large group of
readers who are trained to wait for explanations, read carefully, and read
somewhat between the lines.
>Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
>in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
I'm too much the old sobersides to play Devil's Advocate.
I think TLC is a very good book, perhaps better than Terry himself thought
it would be, and also a pleasant change of pace from the heavy topics of
the two previous books, which Terry said he was trying to do.
=Tamar
Barry Vaughan
<stephe...@bigfoot.com> writes
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:09:16 +0100, Barry Vaughan
><Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> but the irony in
>>the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
>>attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
>>more with it than that.
>
>
>second. 10 pound poms came much later.
>
The racist groups in Australia claim kinship with the
original white settlers, who were there second.
That the 10-pound-poms did not arrive until much later
than that only adds to the irony or their position (at
least those that are presently campaigning to get the Asians
thrown out.)
Barry Vaughan
<dic...@Radix.Net> writes
>>>
>>> "Just a series of barely-connected references"? I am reminded of the
>>><stereotype semi-ignorant person> who finally read Shakespeare and thought
>>>it was just a lot of well-known quotations and cliches strung together.
>>
>>But then in Shakespeare's case he invented the quotations and
>>clichés in the first place. The analogy really doesn't stand
>>up to investigation.
>
>The analogy is to someone who doesn't see that there is serious structure
>and intent beneath the surface. It's been a common criticism of
>Shakespeare that he 'stole' his plots - and yes, of course he did,
>generations of scholars have traced where the bits came from. It's
>what he did with them that counts.
>
The quote above is clearly referring to the person who has
heard as much of Shakespeare as is widely known in popular
culture and therefore assumes that his writings were just
full of popular clichés.
><snip>
>>> He does that, you know - he hides stuff in plain sight in all
>>>the books. He'll put in a really serious statement and shove a joke in
>>>the next sentence so you forget the serious bit immediately and don't
>>>notice the heavy stuff.
>
>>Indeed. Only usually he does it somewhat better than he does
>>in this book.
>>
>>>TLC:
>>> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>>>This is straight out of Eastern meditation,
>>
>>Nah! That's Doctor Who you're thinking of. Or indeed any cheap Sci-fi.
>>Or anything that discusses time travel and it's inherent paradoxes.
>>In fact, the way that it is stated owes more to decades of rewrites
>>of HG Well's Time Machine than it does to Buddhism.
>
>Sigh. Shows how much you know about Buddhism. Not that I'm advanced in
>it, but I have spent close to 15 years studying. Dr. Who, like other SF,
>owes a great deal to ideas that have been cross-fertilizing between East
>and West for at least a century.
>
Exactly. The problem with this claim is not that you cannot
draw parallels with Eastern religions, but that you can
draw parallels with so many other possible sources as well.
As you put it yourself, with Buddhism, it's usually stated the
other way around. I can think of at least two short Sci-fi stories
where it's stated the same way as in TLC, both by famous authors,
I'm sure I could find more if I searched.
In both the cases I'm thinking of the authors were exploring the
nature of time travel and there was really no connection with
Eastern religions of any sort. My point is, if there is more
than one possible connection unless there's overwhelming evidence
in favour of one (and I've given my reasons why I think there isn't
in this case) you cannot conclude that it is the source or inspiration.
>>>only it's usually said the
>>>other way: once you've achieved Buddhahood, you will always have been
>>>Buddha, and eventually everyone will achieve Buddhahood. Terry adds the
>>>corollary; since everyone will eventually do it, we all have to do it,
>>>because we've all already done it, we just don't know it yet. And Terry
>>>adds the further information: knowing that you're going to do it doesn't
>>>make it any easier to do.
>>
>>And knowing that the Doctor will ultimately defeat the Daleks
>>doesn't make it less exciting when they first appear at the end of
>>episode one. This is the principle behind every serial.
>>You know the good guy's going to win, you just don't know how.
>
>The statement above, about the time paradox inherent in completing the
>Buddhist path, is taken _directly_ from my studies of Buddhism, and not
>from Dr. Who or any other SF story.
Yes. You've studied Buddhism and you see a connection with that,
I've studied Dr Who[1] and I see a connection with that. It's a
common and popular theme derived independently by many sources.
[1] Amongst other things, of course.
>>>is a kind patron of animals
>>>and receives miraculous food and help from one (compare
>>>St. Francis), is Chosen for a task,
>>
>>The oldest adventure story cliché known to man.
>
>Not to mention the basis of at least one major religion, that being
>Judaism. Or haven't you heard of the phrase, the chosen people? (BTW, my
>name happens to be Biblical but not for religious reasons.)
Of course, but stories about one person being chosen for a
task in order to restore the balance of the world can owe
as much to Lord of the Rings as to the Old Testament, in the
case of Discworld and many other Tolkienesque fantasy stories
it's reasonable to conclude that they owe more to Frodo Baggins
than to Moses.
>
>>>transcends time, and brings the rain
>>>and hence the rainbow, restoring fertility to the land.
>>> The book also has discussions-by-example of several other kinds of gods
>>>and religions (besides Tibetan Buddhism, in which you re-create yourself
>>>as an advanced being, and transcend time in the process), such as:
><snip for bandwidth>
>>>creation by committee (the Wizards and the platypus); the Trickster god.
>
>>This is one of the better bits. It's basically the "Wizards" storyline
>>up to the point where they get to XXXX. At which point we get the
>>"Platypus" joke, which is so laboured it's unbelievable. The cockroach
>>(not beetle) joke was bad enough, but this was one you just couldn't
>>fail to see coming.
>
>As I said, Terry does that to hide the heavy stuff. He will stick in the
>oldest jokes he can find, as long as they relate to his theme, in order to
>disguise the serious writing. You have to admit, the platypus joke
>relates to the idea of special creations.
I don't care. It very quickly became obvious what the joke was going
to be, but still it was dragged on to the end.
> So does the camel version
>(horse created by committee), but he used camels for the 'came ashore with
>driftwood' discussion.
>
>>There are a few interesting references thrown in, but ultimately
>>this book is all references and little or no original story.
>>The worst thing, in my opinion, was the Peach Melba joke, which
>>just ran on and on and had nothing that could be called a punchline
>>at the end of it. That might have been the worst, but too much of
>>this book is made up of the same type of lazy space filler.
>
>When something puzzles you, figure out a good reason for it to be there.
It doesn't puzzle me. I just didn't find it funny, it was
a joke done badly and it was far too much build up for far too
few laughs at the end.
>Sometimes you'll guess correctly. The Peach Melba sequence did one thing
>very well: it gave Rincewind some real time to catch his breath.
It's a book, hours can pass between paragraphs if necessary, this
wasn't needed for that purpose.
> It also
>gave Terry a chance to work in another local Aussie reference, the Sydney
>opera house,
That would be the "Oh, that opera house looks a bit funny" joke,
would it?
> and use up a joke that was left over from Maskerade, where it
>wouldn't have fit. He'd already used the fact that the cheap seats at the
>opera are called "the gods" because they're so high up that you get to see
>the audience as well as the action, and get a good look at the ceiling.
> Besides, the story about the dessert is precisely true, the chef was at
>his wits' end until he looked around at the available leftovers.
I know of the story.
> Terry
>just added a "what if": what if Dame Nellie Melba had suffered with a less
>elegant sounding name, one which would sound funny no matter what you did
>with it?
It didn't really work though. The logical punchline to the
joke, to the whole scene is the revelation of the name, but
it doesn't stop there, it goes on for no apparent reason.
> Or did you somehow miss the series of music-hall punchlines?
>Terry does write in jokes on several levels.
>
I noticed them. I did not, however, find them amusing.
>>The whole thing is way below Terry's usual standards, if this
>>had been the first book he had written I don't think it would
>>have been accepted by the publisher.
>
>Oh, I think it would have been accepted, though he might have had to offer
>it to an Aussie publisher. But a major point is that it is _not_ his
>first book.
And I think that that has been abused. Every Terry Pratchett
book will sell enough copies to be profitable, only a long
stretch of real stinkers could kill off the series, in this
case I think TLC has fallen below the standards one should expect
from a published novel.
>
>>Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
>>in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
>
>I'm too much the old sobersides to play Devil's Advocate.
>I think TLC is a very good book, perhaps better than Terry himself thought
>it would be, and also a pleasant change of pace from the heavy topics of
>the two previous books, which Terry said he was trying to do.
>
Well, I obviously can't tell you what to think or what
opinion to hold about this or any other book, but it
seems to me that you put more imagination into reading
this book than Terry did into writing it.
Barry Vaughan
<nos...@lovegoddess.free-online.co.uk> writes>(Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk) wibbled...
>
>[Biiiiiiig Snip]
>> had been the first book he had written I don't think it would
>> have been accepted by the publisher.
>>
>> Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
>> in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
>
>she didn't really find that amusing or entertaining (at a first read -
>and I haven't bothered with that one of going back for the second read).
>Jingo had a massively hurried ending and didn't, to me, feel "complete"
>- so in comparison TLC was a masterpiece.
>
I think Jingo did have a slightly hurried ending, but it also
had a wonderful drive behind it, a political message about the
futility of nationalism. That might have led to less out and
out jokes, but the serious story gave a framework to hang the
humour on.
All of the best books (IMO) have had a similar drive and message
in their storyline, so that you're reading a story with a few
jokes to lighten the mood, often made more funny by the contrast
with the dark background, instead of a barely connected string of
jokes and half-references that TLC very nearly decayed into.
co. & Ponder Stibbons
<Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7jhjpa$qq8$1...@saltmine.radix.net>, Richard Eney
><dic...@Radix.Net> writes
<snip Shakespeare>
>>>>TLC:
>>>> Rincewind is told he must do something because he has already done it.
>>>>This is straight out of Eastern meditation,
>>>
>>>Nah! That's Doctor Who you're thinking of. Or indeed any cheap Sci-fi.
<snip>
>Exactly. The problem with this claim is not that you cannot
>draw parallels with Eastern religions, but that you can
>draw parallels with so many other possible sources as well.
>
>As you put it yourself, with Buddhism, it's usually stated the
>other way around. I can think of at least two short Sci-fi stories
>where it's stated the same way as in TLC, both by famous authors,
>I'm sure I could find more if I searched.
>
>In both the cases I'm thinking of the authors were exploring the
>nature of time travel and there was really no connection with
>Eastern religions of any sort. My point is, if there is more
>than one possible connection unless there's overwhelming evidence
>in favour of one (and I've given my reasons why I think there isn't
>in this case) you cannot conclude that it is the source or inspiration.
Terry is deeply interested in why people believe the things they
believe. He has explored the nature of religious belief as a major
theme in several of his books and touches on the question in many
others. Given Terry's own personal beliefs and his interest in things
to do with gods and religion(s) I would put my money on this source
*as much* if not more than on Dr. Who etc.!
<snip>
>Of course, but stories about one person being chosen for a
>task in order to restore the balance of the world can owe
>as much to Lord of the Rings as to the Old Testament, in the
>case of Discworld and many other Tolkienesque fantasy stories
>it's reasonable to conclude that they owe more to Frodo Baggins
>than to Moses.
But shirley, Tolkien's religion (devout Catholicism) was a prime
source of the theme of LOTR?
<snip>
>>>Be honest, did you really think it was good as anything else
>>>in the series, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
>>
>>I'm too much the old sobersides to play Devil's Advocate.
>>I think TLC is a very good book, perhaps better than Terry himself thought
>>it would be, and also a pleasant change of pace from the heavy topics of
>>the two previous books, which Terry said he was trying to do.
>>
>
>Well, I obviously can't tell you what to think or what
>opinion to hold about this or any other book, but it
>seems to me that you put more imagination into reading
>this book than Terry did into writing it.
I have to disagree with you there Barry. Don't underestimate Terry.
IMO he has been struggling of late with the 'heavy' philosophical
things in RL and in the Discworld. He tries not to be too heavy at
times and the 'jokey' side doesn't always work perfectly, but I don't
believe he ever puts things in a book without a very good reason.
Terry Pratchett is, IMHO, a very deep man. He is also very
knowledgeable about a lot of things, and a great searcher for
knowledge about many more.
I don't enjoy *all* parts of *all* his books are as much as *some*
parts of *most* of his books. However, I am always very grateful to
people like Tamar for sharing their insight and pointing out to me
things which sometimes were on the edge of my consciousness and needed
'enlightenment' :-)
Suzi
>
[Snip]
> I think Jingo did have a slightly hurried ending, but it also
> had a wonderful drive behind it, a political message about the
> futility of nationalism. That might have led to less out and
> out jokes, but the serious story gave a framework to hang the
> humour on.
Aye... and there's the rub[1]... I am not, by nature, a very political
animal - politics is something I put up with as a necessary evil in a
modern world and pay the barest minmum attention to in order to make
sure that I am abreast of the issues that affect me. This, and the fact
that although I deplore wars I had far too much war history drummed into
me at school to have left any interest in them or their causes, is
possibly why Jingo left me absolutely cold.
> All of the best books (IMO) have had a similar drive and message
> in their storyline, so that you're reading a story with a few
> jokes to lighten the mood, often made more funny by the contrast
> with the dark background, instead of a barely connected string of
> jokes and half-references that TLC very nearly decayed into.
Sometimes a good light read is all that is required - the joy of reading
Terry's books is that so rarely do you come across an author who can
write very deep books covered with a light smattering of humour one
minute - and the next minute be producing pure comedy. No two books the
same (which is a great trait that I have yet to find elsewhere - as all
too many authors recycle to formula once they find something that
"works").
Suzi
[1] Just to keep old Billie boy in this thread <g>
--
.sig still feeling helpful... but showing signs of fatique
New to afp? mailto:afp-...@lspace.org and browse http://www.lspace.org/
Tom Walmsley
<big snip>
> To me it had "this'll pay the mortgage" written all over it.
This seems extremely unlikely to me. I don't know how many books PTerry
has sold, or how much money he gets for each book, but I'd be willing to
wager he's made a fair bit of cash from his writing. I very much doubt
he has to write for the money to pay the mortgage. It would be foolish
for him to release a poor book, as it would reduce his fan following,
and although Terry is many things, a fool is not one of them.
Personally, I thought TLC was pretty good. Not one of his best but
pretty good.
--
Tom "I am not a walrus" Walmsley. mailto:wom...@tmbg.org
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html ICQ: 2925739
Afpevil-twin to Nobby, afpiancé and afpsis to Tigger, afpiancée to
Peter and Trina and afpiancé (pending parental permission) to Dell
llow
"Robin May" <robin...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> 2 Badsey Fields Lane wrote in message
<7jaq5j$bpn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >Hmmm. Does anyone around here REALLY talk about the Discworld, or is
it an
> >excuse just to socialize.
much
> >Anyway, reply to me if you think I'm right, or argue with me :)
> >
> I'd have to agree with you. Other Discworld books build up to some
really
> important events at the end but I though the Last Continent just
fizzled out.
> That's my opinion.
Still, No Worries.
*L* (keeping extremely WRONG .sig to remind himself
not to wager on Ice-Hockey)
P.S. {Saying "No Worries" pretty much sums up my review, and I
looked it over again recently. Maalesh! Whups, wrong lingo there,eh?}
--
--
Colorado Avalanche in 7 over Dallas Stars;
Toronto in 6 over Buffalo.
Avalanche in 3, finals, it will be that easy.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Richard Eney
It's been an interesting discussion. It seems clear that most of us have
decided whether or not we like TLC, and are unlikely to shift very far in
either direction, but discussion is always helpful for clarifying one's
thinking. The hard part is when you wake up at 3 AM and realize you left
out a point - but then, that just lets someone else make it.
still...
just for the heck of it
a little spoiler space here for TLC
for
a
rather
little
spoiler
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Barry no duubt will disagree :-)
but I think just maybe the issue of the Librarian's name or namelessness
might have some relevance to "that which can be named is not the Tao",
and now let's really stretch: since the Librarian has achieved
namelessness along with orangutanhood, perhaps that's why he stayed an
orangutan when his age changed - once you achieve orangutanhood, you have
always been an orangutan. :-)
Oh, and the more famous operas are usually about gods, and the origin of
Greek theatre (which ultimately led to opera) was a chorus singing the
story of the gods and their interactions with men. A thematic tie-in for
the Sydney opera house?
=Tamar
Aria
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:09:16 +0100, Barry Vaughan
><Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> but the irony in
>>the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
>>attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
>>more with it than that.
>Err, exuse me. It was the Georgean British who were there
>second. 10 pound poms came much later.
>Essentially the Aborigines were there first (although they didn't
>call themselves that) then, following the discovery of Australia
>in 1770 by Captain James Cook (the first person wearing proper
>trousers to find it, as opposed to just happening to have lived
>there for a few hundred thousand years) a load of explorers,
>adventurers &c.
Actually, no they weren't. The people known currently as Aborigines
are also not originally from Australia and pushed out the then
inhabitants down to Tasmania where these previous inhabitants all
died off.
Since I came after the 10 pound pom bit what does that make me?
A 5th comer?
Aria
--
Aria, sf fan, physicist : Time paradoxes will have
http://www.iinet.net.au/~atos/ SF&F : given me a headache.
http://fizzy.murdoch.edu.au/~walker/ :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Meg Thornton
Booth) wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:09:16 +0100, Barry Vaughan
><Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> but the irony in
>>the 10-pound-poms "it's our country because we were here second"
>>attitude is an obvious target and Terry never really did anything
>>more with it than that.
>
>
>Err, exuse me. It was the Georgean British who were there
>second. 10 pound poms came much later.
>
>Essentially the Aborigines were there first (although they didn't
>call themselves that) then, following the discovery of Australia
>in 1770 by Captain James Cook (the first person wearing proper
>trousers to find it, as opposed to just happening to have lived
>there for a few hundred thousand years) a load of explorers,
>adventurers &c.
Actually, the European nation with the best claim to ownership of
Australia are the Dutch. Willem Janz first sighted the continent in
1606, Dirk Hartog bumped into the west coast at Shark Bay in 1616, and
then Willem deVlamingh came along and did a sizeable survey of the
west coast (right the way down to Rottnest Island and the Swan River)
back around the 1640's, if I recall correctly. However, the Dutch
decided that the Spice Islands (Java, Borneo, Timor, etc etc) were a
far better bargain, and declined to colonise the southern landmass.
>In 1790 the British government finding that the
>shores of Britain were getting cluttered up with prison hulks
>full of convicts who couldn't be sent to Virginia (due to the
>Merkin war in independance) decided to continue the practice that
>still exists today of sending criminals to places where they can
>be sure of getting a good sun tan and so sent the convicts to
>Australia. Those that survived the journey were usually flogged
>to death, worked to death or died as a reult of not appreciating
>the fact that most of the natural fauna survived by virtue of
>killing everything else in it's path by poison or in some cases
>dropping on them from a great height.
Something like that, yeah. The east coast colonies (primarily Sydney
and Hobart, but also Brisbane) were started as prison camps. However,
at the same time, Mother England was having a population explosion, so
a lot of people started whinging about the lack of space and
facilities and so on and soforth, resulting in the coming of free
settlers, and the start of free colonies (Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth).
However, when the free settlers realised that in order to get
impressive civic architecture, they'd have to build it themselves,
they quickly sent off a request for convicts to do the hard work.
>
>The sheer numbers of convicts sent was such that even the hostile
>climate of Australia couldn't finish them all off and enough
>survived that by 1867 they coupled with the free settlers (mainly
>disposessed farmers) were a genetically viable population. The
>rich then started to send of their younger sons and daughters, a
>band differing only from the convicts in that they 'perpetrated
>amusing peccadillos' or simply had never been caught, to manage
>the working class rabble.
>
>Assuming we ignore the explorers who stayed only breifly or
>posthumously then, this mixed bag of convicts, aristos and
>farmers were there second.
>
More or less. The point being, Australia didn't get settled by
European settlers in "waves". It was more of a continuous inflow. It
also wasn't all European, either. There were Asian (mainly Chinese)
immigrants virtually from the moment the first fleet landed.
Immigration picked up a bit with all the various gold rushes, but
there have *always* been people coming into Australia from the
European nations.
The 10 pound Poms were the sponsored immigrants after the war - people
who got sponsored passage, and who took the opportunity. But at the
same time they were entering, there were also "displaced persons" -
mainly Italian and Greek - coming into Australia, some of them on the
same boats. Again, we continued the grand old Aussie tradition of
getting the new bugs to do the hard work - a lot of European migrants
wound up working on the Snowy River scheme.
I'm not too sure what kind of filthy labour the Kosovar refugees we've
just got are going to be put to - possibly the govt. has something up
its sleeve.
--
Meg Thornton (mag...@megabitch.tm)
Mark Adri-Soejoko
it again almost immediately, the first time to get a general idea of the
story etc, the second time to try and get all the bits I missed the first
time.
I didn't do it with TLC but having read the comments in the previous
discussion, especially Tamar's (who I feel must be wise and insightfull
beyond imagining) I am glad that I have started it again
Many Thanks
Mark
--
Mark Adri-Soejoko
Tallish, Darkish, Sort of Handsome?
ma...@adri-soejoko.freeserve.co.uk
Ian Cargill
<mag...@megabitch.tm> writes
>
>following the discovery of Australia
>>in 1770 by Captain James Cook (the first person wearing proper
>>trousers to find it, as opposed to just happening to have lived
>>there for a few hundred thousand years)
>Actually, the European nation with the best claim to ownership of
>Australia are the Dutch. Willem Janz first sighted the continent in
>1606, Dirk Hartog bumped into the west coast at Shark Bay in 1616, and
>then Willem deVlamingh came along and did a sizeable survey of the
>west coast (right the way down to Rottnest Island and the Swan River)
>back around the 1640's, if I recall correctly. However, the Dutch
>decided that the Spice Islands (Java, Borneo, Timor, etc etc) were a
>far better bargain, and declined to colonise the southern landmass.
Actually, James Cook wasn't even the first British explorer to
'discover' Australia. That honour (AFAWK) goes to William Dampier, who
landed on the West Coast of Australia almost a century before Cook.
Cook went to Australia deliberately to *explore* the coastline - they
already knew it was there, they just weren't sure what it looked like.
Would Rincewind have cared????
--
Ian Cargill
Barry Vaughan
<I...@soliton.demon.co.uk> writes
I thought Cook was there to explore the New Zealand coastline
and to search for the counterweight continent? Australia is
in the wrong place to be the counterweight continent, but it
doesn't matter since the theory that requires one is completely
without foundation.
Supermouse
>Of course, but stories about one person being chosen for a
>task in order to restore the balance of the world can owe
>as much to Lord of the Rings as to the Old Testament, in the
>case of Discworld and many other Tolkienesque fantasy stories
>it's reasonable to conclude that they owe more to Frodo Baggins
>than to Moses.
Not really fair, that allusion. Especially as Tolkein is more likely
than most to have drawn the basic form from the more original plot.
I think 'Being Chosen from On High to Fulfil a Significant Quest' is one
of the Five[1] Basic Storylines onto which every story is said to be
threaded.
[1] Or Three, or Seven, or whatever. I consider 'Overcoming Difficulties
to Find True Love' to be another. I don't know what the others are,
though they would probably be obvious if pointed out to me.
Cordially,
--
Supermouse
And the Mouse Police never sleeps...
AfpRodent to Miq, MarkD and Tachyon, Sibling to Mouse, in Hill and Heap.
Emma of XXXXia
Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk says... (quoting Meg Thornton I
suspect?)
> >>Actually, the European nation with the best claim to ownership of
> >>Australia are the Dutch. Willem Janz first sighted the continent in
> >>1606, Dirk Hartog bumped into the west coast at Shark Bay in 1616, and
> >>then Willem deVlamingh came along and did a sizeable survey of the
> >>west coast (right the way down to Rottnest Island and the Swan River)
> >>back around the 1640's, if I recall correctly. However, the Dutch
> >>decided that the Spice Islands (Java, Borneo, Timor, etc etc) were a
> >>far better bargain, and declined to colonise the southern landmass.
>
I was watching the Bush Tucker Man on TV a couple of weeks ago (while
eating my non-bush-tucker dinner), and he was doing a series on
Australian explorers. I can't remember all the details, but this show was
about one explorer who stumbled across a colony of roughly 300 people
descended from the 20-odd survivors of a Dutch shipwreck off the coast of
what is now West Australia. Aboriginal tribes in the area apparently
showed evidence that the Dutch survivors may also have shared a gene pool
with them (skull shape etc). Unfortunately, the colony of Dutch
disappeared without a trace. If the story is true though, there were
Dutch settlers in Australia long before the First Fleet.
Emma
--
Remove TT to email me. Cheese messages welcome.
afpianceed to various people who may or may not
like cheese. afpsister to persons who may or may
not be Isrealies.
Raphael Kirschke
<snip everything that's relevant>
>I think 'Being Chosen from On High to Fulfil a Significant Quest' is one
>of the Five[1] Basic Storylines onto which every story is said to be
>threaded.
>
>[1] Or Three, or Seven, or whatever. I consider 'Overcoming Difficulties
> to Find True Love' to be another. I don't know what the others are,
> though they would probably be obvious if pointed out to me.
'Going on a Quest to Find Out the Truth About Yourself', I think, and
'Defeating your Brother/Friend/Father Who Turned Evil but Sees the
Error of His Ways at Last' (Star Wars).
Rand
>
> On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:43:37 +0100, 'twas was Supermouse who wrote:
>
> <snip everything that's relevant>
>
> >I think 'Being Chosen from On High to Fulfil a Significant Quest' is one
> >of the Five[1] Basic Storylines onto which every story is said to be
> >threaded.
> >
> >[1] Or Three, or Seven, or whatever. I consider 'Overcoming Difficulties
> > to Find True Love' to be another. I don't know what the others are,
> > though they would probably be obvious if pointed out to me.
>
> 'Going on a Quest to Find Out the Truth About Yourself', I think, and
> 'Defeating your Brother/Friend/Father Who Turned Evil but Sees the
> Error of His Ways at Last' (Star Wars).
>
his ways and goes to hell'.
Or is that just the Sword of Truth series?? :)
Rand
--
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
Now, due to Science of Discworld attributed to Gregory Benford.
Barry Vaughan
<Super...@rat-cage.demon.co.uk> writes
>Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Of course, but stories about one person being chosen for a
>>task in order to restore the balance of the world can owe
>>as much to Lord of the Rings as to the Old Testament, in the
>>case of Discworld and many other Tolkienesque fantasy stories
>>it's reasonable to conclude that they owe more to Frodo Baggins
>>than to Moses.
>
>than most to have drawn the basic form from the more original plot.
>
I think it's more likely that he simply made it up himself.
>I think 'Being Chosen from On High to Fulfil a Significant Quest' is one
>of the Five[1] Basic Storylines onto which every story is said to be
>threaded.
>
As you say (and I think it's seven) there are only a small
number of basic story-lines. My argument was not that Terry
had copied Tolkien, but that similarities between Last Continent
and various types of eastern mythology were just coincidence.
The comparison with other stories was just to show how many times
the same story-lines turn up.
Emma of XXXXia
Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk (Barry Vaughan) says...
> The comparison with other stories was just to show how many times
> the same story-lines turn up.
Something I've been wondering...
There are people on this planet who will happily read books or watch
movies that follow the same formula over and over again. Others refuse to
do so and demand something "different" every time, or else they will be
bored.
Yet I bet those people would happily eat the same brand of chocolate
every time they wanted to eat chocolate, and not demand that the
manufacturer change the recipe every five minutes.
Just a thought.
MikeXXXX
>
> TLC small spoilerette
>
> It's been an interesting discussion. It seems clear that most of us have
> decided whether or not we like TLC, and are unlikely to shift very far in
> either direction, but discussion is always helpful for clarifying one's
> thinking. The hard part is when you wake up at 3 AM and realize you left
> out a point - but then, that just lets someone else make it.
>
>
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
Well, I agree, the entire thread has been interesting.
If pTerry had sent this to an Australian Publisher I would
like to think that many of the descriptions used would not
have come out like a newbie to our shores.
There were things which us 'no worries' types would have
raised our eyes to the skies at. Here's some of them.
point:
"meat pie floaters" = don't exist
"pie floaters" do.
It's *that* simple and it really jarred each time it was
mentioned.
point:
Drop Bears don't exist either, but the Aussie drop bear is a
more like a koala than a porcupine and as such, if it did
exist, which it doesn't, wouldn't have a pointy bit to spear
anything or anybody with. Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just
heavy and fluffy and watch out for the claws. If they did
exist, WTD, they wouldn't bounce either.
point:
There was nothing strange or particularly funny about
beating the ground with a stick, that's what you do to check
for snakes, and the snakes here tend to be deadly, and
express your aggression at bull-ants. Even if it looks
funny, it ain't'. Finding food under rocks wasn't funny
either. Well, it was amusing when they became sandwiches,
but the concept of eating off the land is a reality in the
desert. Grubs, roots, all good tucker (food that is). And as
Crocodile Dundee said "it taste's like sh*t, but it'll keep
you alive." [1]
point:
Mad Max: This is not an Australian Story. It's a movie.
Sure, it was made in Oz, but it essentially follows a
not-specifically-australian 'Road Warrier' storyline. I
won't deny that we love our cars. We have an advertising
zingle which became legend "Football, Meat-Pies, Kangaroos
and Holden Cars" When that bit of the book started I thought
- well, let's see how he does it. Then he threw in some
'Back to the Future III' with the 'special ingredient',
substituted hay for water as the 'precious cargo' and did it
quiet well, actually.
There's more which jarred and the overall point I want to
make is that this jarring didn't happen when I read IT or
M!M or MP. I found the allusions extremely funny in the
other books and by comparison some in TLC, not all, of the
XXXX allusions groanworthy.
Now, on the subject of Tao.
Rincewinds spirit guide, kangaroo, whatever, from the moment
it erupts out of the waterhole, seemed to me a creature of
the Dreamtime. This is an Aboriginal thing. All the history
I have heard of is oral, all the creation and explanation
for the land and everything comes back to stories from the
dreamtime. As I understand it anyway.
Now someone posted in the tread that pTerry researches local
stuff (aka IT), and if that's the case then I'm afraid you
have to chuck out the Tao thing for the Australian bit
anyway. It may be valid for the 'UU Wizards' side of things,
but Rincewind is under the auspices of the Aboriginal
Dreamtime and, while I can't currently explain what I mean,
it made sense when I read the book.
My gran had a phrase, 'putting the cart before the horse',
which didn't exactly leap to mind. It sort of snuck in as I
went through the thread. The things which happen in TLC
might be Tao in feel, I don't mind at all. It sounds to me
that Tao can explain everything because Tao is so complete.
That would give the DreamTime no look-in though. Remember,
Australia isn't Asian, Aborigine's aren't Asian (they are,
in fact, several hundred tribes massed into one name by
'whites' conveniently ignoring just how big this island is).
Finally
None of what I've said has actually reviewed the book, which
I, overall, enjoyed.
The twistie time stuff, the window with the stick,
Rincewinds hourglass, Luggage stuck in a mine in Cooper
Pedy, even the explanation for the Platypus were all in the
flavour I have come to know and love. The paperback has just
been released and now I can give back the signed-hardcover I
begged off a mate and get my own copy.
[Aside:possible easter egg: There's an advert "Life's pretty
straight without Twisties". The whole book was a twistie
affair.
I enjoyed Death learning about XXXX and going to visit
Rincewind in Gaol, we knew he wasn't going to hang (and the
banjo paterson bit was a bit heavy, but) as he hadn't swung
the bullroarer yet.
So I liked it, enough to re-read it with the local colour
jarring.
That means I agree and disagree in quantum with everyone. Oh
crikey!
anyrate
No Worries
or as pTerry put in the signing
Nullus anxietes
ooroo
Mike
--
it's post or perish for this one
http://www.lspace.org
Go forth and be clued
Buy some lovely bananas in the foyer shoppe.
Susan M
<snip comments about interesting thread>
> more spoiler needed for TLC now, I think
> >
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> Well, I agree, the entire thread has been interesting.
> point:
> Drop Bears don't exist either, but the Aussie drop bear is a
> more like a koala than a porcupine and as such, if it did
> exist, which it doesn't, wouldn't have a pointy bit to spear
> anything or anybody with. Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just
> heavy and fluffy and watch out for the claws. If they did
> exist, WTD, they wouldn't bounce either.
I got the impression that the drop bears _were_ rather like koalas, but
with heavily padded, erm, rears. I don't remember anything about them
having spikes. They fall on people, but in the case of Rincewind, it
landed on a sharp point. I don't see why they shouldn't bounce, either.
<snip the rest>
Susan
Inneke Geysen
MikeXXXX heeft geschreven in bericht <376509C1...@cspl.com.au>...
>Richard Eney wrote:
>>
>> TLC small spoilerette
>>
>> It's been an interesting discussion. It seems clear that most of us have
>> decided whether or not we like TLC, and are unlikely to shift very far in
>> either direction, but discussion is always helpful for clarifying one's
>> thinking. The hard part is when you wake up at 3 AM and realize you left
>> out a point - but then, that just lets someone else make it.
>>
>>
>1
>2
>3
>4
>5
>6
>7
>8
>9
>Well, I agree, the entire thread has been interesting.
>
>like to think that many of the descriptions used would not
>have come out like a newbie to our shores.
>
>There were things which us 'no worries' types would have
>raised our eyes to the skies at. Here's some of them.
>
>point:
>"meat pie floaters" = don't exist
>"pie floaters" do.
>It's *that* simple and it really jarred each time it was
>mentioned.
>
>Drop Bears don't exist either, but the Aussie drop bear is a
>more like a koala than a porcupine and as such, if it did
>exist, which it doesn't, wouldn't have a pointy bit to spear
>anything or anybody with. Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just
>heavy and fluffy and watch out for the claws. If they did
>exist, WTD, they wouldn't bounce either.
>
>There was nothing strange or particularly funny about
>beating the ground with a stick, that's what you do to check
>for snakes, and the snakes here tend to be deadly, and
>express your aggression at bull-ants. Even if it looks
>funny, it ain't'. Finding food under rocks wasn't funny
>either. Well, it was amusing when they became sandwiches,
>but the concept of eating off the land is a reality in the
>desert. Grubs, roots, all good tucker (food that is). And as
>Crocodile Dundee said "it taste's like sh*t, but it'll keep
>you alive." [1]
>
>point:
>Mad Max: This is not an Australian Story. It's a movie.
>Sure, it was made in Oz, but it essentially follows a
>not-specifically-australian 'Road Warrier' storyline. I
>won't deny that we love our cars. We have an advertising
>zingle which became legend "Football, Meat-Pies, Kangaroos
>and Holden Cars" When that bit of the book started I thought
>- well, let's see how he does it. Then he threw in some
>'Back to the Future III' with the 'special ingredient',
>substituted hay for water as the 'precious cargo' and did it
>quiet well, actually.
>
>
point:
*quote*
Terry Pratchett would like it to be known that 'The Last Continent' is not a
book about Australia. It's just vaguely australian.
*unquote*
love,
Inneke
Barry Vaughan
<funky...@hotmail.com> writes
>In article <Nd$yLEAl6...@samael.demon.co.uk>,
>Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk (Barry Vaughan) says...
>> The comparison with other stories was just to show how many times
>> the same story-lines turn up.
>
>Something I've been wondering...
>
>There are people on this planet who will happily read books or watch
>movies that follow the same formula over and over again. Others refuse to
>do so and demand something "different" every time, or else they will be
>bored.
>
I think if you're going to write a book or produce a film
you can't expect to able to produce an absolutely original
story every time, but you should at least have a new spin.
My problem with Last Continent wasn't that the story was
unoriginal. I actually argued that it wasn't based on
another story. My problem was the poor standard of the
book in general and the large number of predictable jokes
that just relied on references to Australia.
Robin Halligan
<ad...@cspl.com.au>
and they spake thus :
>point:
>Mad Max: This is not an Australian Story. It's a movie.
>Sure, it was made in Oz, but it essentially follows a
>not-specifically-australian 'Road Warrier' storyline. I
>won't deny that we love our cars. We have an advertising
>zingle which became legend "Football, Meat-Pies, Kangaroos
>and Holden Cars" When that bit of the book started I thought
>- well, let's see how he does it. Then he threw in some
>'Back to the Future III' with the 'special ingredient',
>substituted hay for water as the 'precious cargo' and did it
>quiet well, actually.
I think you may be going a bit far in thinking that PT incorporated Back
to the Future III in the story, I assume you are talking about the logs
they made to toss in the fire on the train, but in TLC the hay was (just
like in Mad Max) fuel like petrol and the modified hat was just turning
on the supercharger or turning on the nitrous and hay was not
substituted for water hay is fuel in mad max the precious cargo.
WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT
FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN
Terry Pratchett Reaper Man
Ben Hutchings
In article <MPG.11cf5a15b...@news.lspace.org>,
Emma of XXXXia <funky...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <Nd$yLEAl6...@samael.demon.co.uk>,
>Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk (Barry Vaughan) says...
>> The comparison with other stories was just to show how many times
>> the same story-lines turn up.
>
>Something I've been wondering...
>
>There are people on this planet who will happily read books or watch
>movies that follow the same formula over and over again. Others refuse to
>do so and demand something "different" every time, or else they will be
>bored.
>
>every time they wanted to eat chocolate, and not demand that the
>manufacturer change the recipe every five minutes.
>
>Just a thought.
Reading a book or watching a film is an experience that lasts
significantly longer and demands much more attention than eating some
chocolate. So I think it is not surprising that people generally
expect some intellectual stimulation from media which they do not from
their food.
--
Ben Hutchings - wom...@zzumbouk.demon.co.uk, http://www.zzumbouk.demon.co.uk
Team *AMIGA* | Jay Miner Society | Linux - the choice of a GNU generation
Klipstein's 4th Law of Prototyping and Production:
A fail-safe circuit will destroy others.
Richard Eney
Barry Vaughan <Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>My argument was not that Terry
>had copied Tolkien, but that similarities between Last Continent
>and various types of eastern mythology were just coincidence.
>
>the same story-lines turn up.
At Worldcon in Texas, Terry said that he looks for story elements that are
in many sources; if he can find the same basic storyline in three entirely
independent sources, he feels happier about using it. There is no reason
that he couldn't have found the time paradox of 'completing something
because you already have completed it' in Eastern philosophy, Western SF,
and either a fairy tale or some kind of fatalist philosophy.
=Tamar
Richard Eney
In article <376509C1...@cspl.com.au>,
MikeXXXX <mic...@cspl.com.au> wrote:
>Richard Eney wrote:
>> It's been an interesting discussion. It seems clear that most of us have
>> decided whether or not we like TLC, and are unlikely to shift very far in
>> either direction, but discussion is always helpful for clarifying one's
>> thinking. The hard part is when you wake up at 3 AM and realize you left
>> out a point - but then, that just lets someone else make it.
>>
>more spoiler needed for TLC now, I think
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
>Well, I agree, the entire thread has been interesting.
<snip>
>point:
>Drop Bears don't exist either, but the Aussie drop bear is a
>more like a koala than a porcupine and as such, if it did
>exist, which it doesn't, wouldn't have a pointy bit to spear
>anything or anybody with. Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just
>heavy and fluffy and watch out for the claws. If they did
>exist, WTD, they wouldn't bounce either.
In the first discussions of them on this group, ISTR several different
versions given by Aussies from different areas, and most of their versions
of drop bears had significant sharp bits with which to suck out brains
etc.
>point:
>There was nothing strange or particularly funny about
>beating the ground with a stick, that's what you do to check
>for snakes, and the snakes here tend to be deadly, and
>express your aggression at bull-ants. Even if it looks
>funny, it ain't'.
Correction: It is sensible, but it still looks funny, so it was in the
book.
>Finding food under rocks wasn't funny
>either. Well, it was amusing when they became sandwiches,
>but the concept of eating off the land is a reality in the
>desert. Grubs, roots, all good tucker (food that is). And as
>Crocodile Dundee said "it taste's like sh*t, but it'll keep
>you alive." [1]
I believe the finding of food under rocks was not intended as an unmixed
joke; it was used to indicate survival skills (ISTR much earlier in the
series, it was pointed out that Rincewind would, and had, eaten almost
anything). However, it also allowed some comedy of behavior, some comedy
of cultural difference (in this case, most of the western world vs an
Australian survivalist tv show), and the making of the punes on "grub".
>point:
>Mad Max: This is not an Australian Story. It's a movie.
>Sure, it was made in Oz, but it essentially follows a
>not-specifically-australian 'Road Warrier' storyline.
It is an SF story set in Australia.
<snip>
>Now, on the subject of Tao.
>Rincewinds spirit guide, kangaroo, whatever, from the moment
>it erupts out of the waterhole, seemed to me a creature of
>the Dreamtime. This is an Aboriginal thing. All the history
>I have heard of is oral, all the creation and explanation
>for the land and everything comes back to stories from the
>dreamtime. As I understand it anyway.
>
>Now someone posted in the tread that pTerry researches local
>stuff (aka IT), and if that's the case then I'm afraid you
>have to chuck out the Tao thing for the Australian bit
>anyway. It may be valid for the 'UU Wizards' side of things,
>but Rincewind is under the auspices of the Aboriginal
>Dreamtime and, while I can't currently explain what I mean,
>it made sense when I read the book.
<snip>
>The things which happen in TLC
>might be Tao in feel, I don't mind at all. It sounds to me
>that Tao can explain everything because Tao is so complete.
>That would give the DreamTime no look-in though.
There is no need to assume that including the Tao would prevent inclusion
of the Dreamtime. Obviously Rincewind is involved in the Dreamtime, and
so are the wizards. The Tao reference I made is specifically the
Librarian, and I believe it's one of the subtler jokes that Terry said in
an interview that he likes to put into the books the way game writers put
'easter eggs' into the games. And there is no conflict whatsoever in my
mind between the concept of the Tao and the concept of the Dreamtime
anyway. They are pretty much just different words for the same thing.
<snip>
>That means I agree and disagree in quantum with everyone. Oh
>crikey!
Welcome to UU, Ponder Stibbons will be your student advisor
:-)
=Tamar
Mark A. Cooper
Richard Eney wrote in message <7k4u86$8ev$1...@saltmine.radix.net>...
<on beating the ground with a stick>
>Correction: It is sensible, but it still looks funny, so it was in the
>book.
It puts me in mind of a certain Basil Fawlty attempting to beat the living
daylights out of his errant car by giving his car "a damn good *thrashing*"
with a branch - OK, so that *wasn't* sensible, but you get the idea.
As far as an opinion of the book itself is concerned, it made my head spin
the first time I read it, but I enjoyed it very much - regardless of the
alleged "inaccuracies" (which I didn't know about anyway) - and a second
reading was conducted with a minimum of cranial revolution :)
Mark
---
Mark A. Cooper, son of Duchess Sybil Ramkin of Yorkshire
"A word is the concatenation of phonetic vocalisations which is only
rendered comprehensible upon application of the grammatical, pronunciation
and syntactical norms of the language of intended usage." - by me
Orin Thomas
Spoiler Space - TLC
> If pTerry had sent this to an Australian Publisher I would
> like to think that many of the descriptions used would not
> have come out like a newbie to our shores.
An australian publisher probably wouldn't publish it
because it doesn't fit into the strange definition of
what an "Australian Book" should be. How much aussie
SF or fantasy is there?
>
> There were things which us 'no worries' types would have
> raised our eyes to the skies at. Here's some of them.
>
I think this is more your reaction than a general
australian reaction. The book was about a place that
was "like" Australia - why on earth did you take it
so personally?
> point:
> "meat pie floaters" = don't exist
> "pie floaters" do.
> It's *that* simple and it really jarred each time it was
> mentioned.
This didn't concern me. The discworld *doesn't exist* so
why should we be concerned if "meat pie floaters" do or
do not.
> point:
> Drop Bears don't exist either, but the Aussie drop bear is a
> more like a koala than a porcupine and as such, if it did
> exist, which it doesn't, wouldn't have a pointy bit to spear
> anything or anybody with. Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just
> heavy and fluffy and watch out for the claws. If they did
> exist, WTD, they wouldn't bounce either.
I dunno which campfire stories your scout troop leader
told - but our drop bears were deadlier than the alien
that ripley fights. And then there are were-bears - a
sort of lycanthrope australian version of the werewolf.
Terry is very aware of this story - he made drop bear
jokes way before TLC was published when he was in .au.
Orin
Emma of XXXXia
Ben Hutchings wrote in message <7k3uud$1ar$1...@zzumbouk.demon.co.uk>...
>Reading a book or watching a film is an experience that lasts
>significantly longer and demands much more attention than eating some
>chocolate. So I think it is not surprising that people generally
>expect some intellectual stimulation from media which they do not from
>their food.
You know, sometimes I really don't want more from a book or movie than I'd
get from a bar of chocolate. Sometimes I watch a movie that sticks to the
same old formula, just done well, because I want a laugh/cry/shock and I
know that movie will give it to me. Books can be the same. There are times
when I want more than that, and they're the kind of movies/books that make
it on my Top 10 list. But sometimes I just want a particular kind of
emotional release, and I don't care if it's original or not.
Not that I'm saying TLC was that. There were elements of it (eg I know a
Discworld story will always make me laugh) but it also made me think about
my own culture a bit.
Just defending my right to be entertained by an unoriginal book, in general.
Emma
--
posting tonight thanks to the generosity of MikeXXXX in Adelaide
Emma of XXXXia
Barry Vaughan wrote in message ...
<snip>
>My problem with Last Continent wasn't that the story was
>unoriginal. I actually argued that it wasn't based on
>another story. My problem was the poor standard of the
>book in general and the large number of predictable jokes
>that just relied on references to Australia.
cultural landmarks as the Simpsons Down Under episode (some bits were almost
true - it's the Deputy Prime Minister who's a hat-wearing farmer, not the
PM, and he's a sheep farmer, not a pig farmer). At least the cultural
references were amusing for those of us who live here. And he managed to
write in some relatively complex Dreamtime-style plot bits - other furriners
who try to include Aboriginal bits in an Australian story generally just
include a didgeridoo as a prop.
By the way, I'm not saying TLC is formula either - just that some people
find formula novels or movies entertaining despite their lack of
originality.
Emma
--
posting tonight due to the generosity of MikeXXXX of Adelaide
Aria
>MikeXXXX wrote:
>Spoiler Space - TLC
>> If pTerry had sent this to an Australian Publisher I would
>> like to think that many of the descriptions used would not
>> have come out like a newbie to our shores.
>An australian publisher probably wouldn't publish it
>because it doesn't fit into the strange definition of
>what an "Australian Book" should be. How much aussie
>SF or fantasy is there?
If you mean set in and about Australia, probably not a huge deal
(Terry Dowling's Rhynosseros (sp?) series is the only one that leaps
to mind)
If you mean by Australians, quite a bit. A small sample is at
the end of http://www.iinet.net.au/~atos/atos_cat.html
and a bit easier to see is http://www.iinet.net.au/~atos/aust-rel.html
>Orin
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
Ben Hutchings <wom...@zzumbouk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In article <MPG.11cf5a15b...@news.lspace.org>,
> Emma of XXXXia <funky...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <Nd$yLEAl6...@samael.demon.co.uk>,
> >Ba...@samael.newantispam.demon.co.uk (Barry Vaughan) says...
> >> the same story-lines turn up.
> >
> >
> >There are people on this planet who will happily read books or watch
> >movies that follow the same formula over and over again. Others
refuse to
> >do so and demand something "different" every time, or else they will
be
> >bored.
> >
> >Yet I bet those people would happily eat the same brand of chocolate
> >every time they wanted to eat chocolate, and not demand that the
> >manufacturer change the recipe every five minutes.
> >
> >Just a thought.
I'll happily eat the same brand of chocolate. I'll happily watch the
same video over and over ("The Batman/Superman Movie" just now). But
sometimes I decide I'd like to try a different chocolate, and quite
often I'd decide I'd like to watch a different film. And I expect
something different to *be* different.
Just my 0.038 Euros worth.
--
Dave, who usually has Mars bars, but sometimes a Cadbury's Wispa
The opinions above are a product of my memes and
do not necessarily correspond to my own.
Libroid of EU Skiffysoc http://www.ed.ac.uk/~sesoc
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
MikeXXXX
>
> MikeXXXX wrote:
>
> Spoiler Space - TLC
>
> > "pie floaters" do.
> > It's *that* simple and it really jarred each time it was
> > mentioned.
>
> This didn't concern me. The discworld *doesn't exist* so
> why should we be concerned if "meat pie floaters" do or
> do not.
>
I'm not sure whether to respond or not. I did like the book.
Inneke pointed out the quote in the front "This isn't a book
about Australia...", fair enough. no worries.
I think it was the tautology of the phrase. He might have
been writing :-
Can I have a white white coat please?
Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
CMOTDibbler doesn't sell "meat sausage" inna bun, does he?
anyrate, the line seems a bit dodg#$@#@$% [NO CARRIER]
> > ... Drop Bears aren't dangerous, just heavy and fluffy
> > and watch out for the claws. If they did exist, WTD,
> > they wouldn't bounce either.
>
> I dunno which campfire stories your scout troop leader
> told - but our drop bears were deadlier than the alien
> that ripley fights. And then there are were-bears - a
> sort of lycanthrope australian version of the werewolf.
>
> Terry is very aware of this story - he made drop bear
> jokes way before TLC was published when he was in .au.
>
padded bums! hah!
I think we must have far more subtle drop bears five hundred
miles west north west of you. But then you east coast folk
can be about as subtle as a brick, though we can't complain
'cos bricks are the one thing you do buy from us.
Just in case anyone was thinking of visiting Oz, take note
that the drop bears on the coast are far more dangerous
than the drop bears inland.
ooroo
Mike
--
GO FORTH AND CLUE
but learn the words
http://www.lspace.org should do it to you,
er, um, *For You*
ANDREW BREEN
MikeXXXX <mic...@cspl.com.au> wrote:
>
>CMOTDibbler doesn't sell "meat sausage" inna bun, does he?
>anyrate, the line seems a bit dodg#$@#@$% [NO CARRIER]
'Pig sausage, made from genuine pig', IIRC.
--
Andy Breen ~ PPARC Advanced Research Fellow
Solar Physics Group
University of Wales, Aberystwyth
My posting, my opinions..
Richard Eney
no real Spoiler - TLC
<snip>
>I did like the book.
>Inneke pointed out the quote in the front "This isn't a book
>about Australia...", fair enough. no worries.
>
>I think it was the tautology of the phrase. He might have
>been writing :-
>
>Can I have a white white coat please?
>Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
>No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
Nope. Please take careful note of capitalization. "This isn't a book
about Australia, it's just vaguely australian." The word "australian"
is not capitalized. That word means "austral-ian". The word "austral"
means "southern" (from Latin, "australis").
>CMOTDibbler doesn't sell "meat sausage" inna bun, does he?
Well, of course not... though some of the contents are rumored to have
been near an animal once.
=Tamar
Willem L. Toren
Emma of XXXXia wrote:
>
> I thought it was pretty good, actually.
> At least the cultural references were amusing for those of us who live here.
> And he managed to write in some relatively complex Dreamtime-style plot bits -
>
>
PMFJI, but as a bludy furriner and a very frequent visitor to Australia, I fully
agree with you. I thought that the book was hilarious and a lot of references
Terry made were spot on, especially from a non-australian's point of view (And,
no, I don't mean that as stereo typing either the country or its inhabitants,
vegetable or animal).
Let's be honest, when a Discworld book appears about Oz you expect it to be
somewhat predictable, no?
Willem
Mary Messall
Spoilers?
Well,
no
worries.
Don't
scroll
down.
For my first venture on this side of the spoiler warnings for TLC
(finished it yesterday) I'll muse that I doubt I got half of the Strile
jokes, due to a shortage of experience with that continent, and managed
to enjoy the thing nonetheless, which seems to imply that there is more
there...
Rincewind, for instance. I've never been one of his greatest fans, as I
thought he was a bit of a one trick pony, but all the references to his
previous experiences, as a demon and an unwilling general, observer of
the beginning of the world and eater of half a sandwich... Now that he
has a *past* he's more of a three dimensional character, and interesting
to read about. And still very silly, of course.
And the wizards, especially Ponder, who seems to become quite full
fleshed and believable despite himself. The God of Evolution bits were
completely unexpected and great. I laughed out loud.
If this had been written by anyone else, it would probably be their best
book.
-Mary
Orin Thomas
>
> I think it was the tautology of the phrase. He might have
> been writing :-
>
> Can I have a white white coat please?
> Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
> No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
>
I think I see what you are getting at. Pie implies
"Meat Pie". Oddly enough the meat pie (of the australian
4 and 20 variety) is pretty much only an australian
thing. Most Americans think of something sweet when
you say pie (well the ones I know do) ... hence if it
was left as "pie floater" the natural assumption would
be "you put apple pie in pea soup? you are nuts!"
Hand held size meat pies are something of an
oddity once you get out of .au/.nz
Getting a meat pie in the USA is harder than getting
vegemite in the USA. I have heard that there is an
australian pie shop in Berkeley somewhere - and one
day I will get desparate enough to drive there, bang
some sauce on and have myself one. Damn now I want
a pie ...
So meat pie floater isn't redundant because meat
pies aren't universal. I only had to see the look
on my fiancee's face when I wolfed one down in
Broome to find that out :-)
Orin engaged to 'Angela "It doesn't have vegemite
in it does it?" Foster' Thomas.
Jonathan Ellis
MikeXXXX wrote in message <3767C60E...@cspl.com.au>...
>I most humbly apologize for a confusing post
>[correction here]
>I think it was the tautology of the phrase. "meat pie
>floater"
>which jarred.
But you can put other things in pies besides meat. Could have been
worse... could have been an apple-pie floater...
Jonathan.
Richard Eney
Orin Thomas <or...@lspace.org> wrote:
<snip>
>I think I see what you are getting at. Pie implies
>"Meat Pie". Oddly enough the meat pie (of the australian
>4 and 20 variety) is pretty much only an australian
>thing. Most Americans think of something sweet when
>you say pie (well the ones I know do) ... hence if it
>was left as "pie floater" the natural assumption would
>be "you put apple pie in pea soup? you are nuts!"
Very likely, but the whole concept is likely to have the same effect. It
apparently had that effect on PTerry even _with_ the specification of
meat.
>Hand held size meat pies are something of an
>oddity once you get out of .au/.nz
>
>Getting a meat pie in the USA is harder than getting
>vegemite in the USA.
Not at all. We have something called "chicken pot pie" (and also the
variation, "beef pot pie"), which can be bought in the frozen food
department (and heated at one of the deathburger places, lately). We just
don't dump it into a bowl of soup. They come in individual (hand held
size) and family size.
>So meat pie floater isn't redundant because meat
>pies aren't universal.
Correct. :-)
And congrats on the engagement.
=Tamar
Julia Jones
>Hand held size meat pies are something of an
>oddity once you get out of .au/.nz
I never seem to have much difficulty finding them in .uk, and they tend
to actually *have* meat in them here:^)
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
MikeXXXX
Please forgive me, Let's see if I can write what I mean this
time.
Orin Thomas wrote:
>
> MikeXXXX wrote:
>
> Spoiler Space - TLC
>
> > "meat pie floaters" = don't exist
> > "pie floaters" do.
> > It's *that* simple and it really jarred each time it
was
> > mentioned.
>
> This didn't concern me. The discworld *doesn't exist* so
> why should we be concerned if "meat pie floaters" do or
> do not.
>
I'm not sure whether to respond or not. I did like the
book.
Inneke pointed out the quote in the front "This isn't a
book
about Australia...", fair enough. no worries.
[additional]
You're right, it doesn't matter the least whether they exist
or not. In the back of my mind I'm hoping someone might say,
"I see what you mean". Let me try an example, "magic
broomstock" and "magic flying broomstick". There are times
when an author might use either of those phrases. I think
"magic" implies "flying" and it would be something to do
with the sentence structure and surrounding events as to
which phrase was used.
[correction here]
I think it was the tautology of the phrase. "meat pie
floater"
which jarred. He might have been writing :-
Can I have a white white coat please?
Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
CMOTDibbler doesn't sell "meat sausage" inna bun, does he?
anyrate, the line seems a bit dodg#$@#@$% [NO CARRIER]
[addendum]
There's another post about the origin of the pie floater,
and the "gourmet pie floater" is a recent introduction
because of a new baker called "Villi's" who is now, after
phenomenal growth, Balfours major competitor. Villi's make a
"gourmet" pie, very tasty, and they also make a "goulash
pie"
by the by:-
If the person who rocks up at the Pie Cart isn't drunk
enough, you sometimes get this sort of conversation.
"G'day"
"G'day"
"I'll have a pie floater"
"no worries"
"What's in em"
"that's pea soup and a Balfours pie"
<silence>
"d'ya want sauce onya pie"
"um - ok - thanks"
<bit more silence>
"what sort of pie"
"Balfours"
"what sort"
"meat"
ooroo
Mike
(who thinks he's said quiet enough (to learn foreigners not
to double-talk) - and promises to post something else about
TLC when he has read everything previously posted and has a
perspective which will add and not sidetrack)
--
GO FORTH AND CLUE
still learning the words
Gillian Houck
> I have heard that there is an
>australian pie shop in Berkeley somewhere
From <http://www.mtcc.com/~sfx/ron/eats-sfbay.html>:
Noble Pies, 5421 College Ave, Oakland, CA, (510) 653-2790, $5-10?
"Australian-style" meat pies
Meat pies the size of wedding cakes, from around the world. Interesting
and offbeat, food designed by Lewis Carroll and Queen Victoria. "I have
eaten there." (Cabeza de Vaca)
--
"cynics are well aware of how the world *should* be, have a reasonable
idea of what people would need to do to get there, and know people
will never pull it together" - kari copeland
gil...@rimron.co.uk http://www.rimron.co.uk/~gillian/
Colin Rosenthal
Richard Eney <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>Not at all. We have something called "chicken pot pie" (and also the
>variation, "beef pot pie"), which can be bought in the frozen food
>department (and heated at one of the deathburger places, lately). We just
>don't dump it into a bowl of soup. They come in individual (hand held
>size) and family size.
True, but you make them with the wrong kind of pastry - shortcrust instead
of puff.
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
Rudewind-Rustling BF, _Shad0w_, Chris Crowther BF
words of wisdom:
Greetings Julia Jones
>>Hand held size meat pies are something of an
>>oddity once you get out of .au/.nz
>
>I never seem to have much difficulty finding them in .uk, and they tend
>to actually *have* meat in them here:^)
Neither do I. I always have a Steak pie w/ sausage and chips
from the Fish 'n' Chips shop.
--
Rudewind-Rustling, _Shad0w_ to people on ICQ or even Chris Crowther on ocassion.
1613694 @ ICQ - sha...@shad0w.org - http://www.blood-runs-deep.org/shad0w/
Grymma
Jonathan Ellis <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7k9922$225$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> >I think it was the tautology of the phrase. "meat pie
> >floater"
> >which jarred.
>
> worse... could have been an apple-pie floater...
Which would be fine, if it was floating in custard... yummmy :-)
I *like* custard.
--
Grymma
AFPiancée of Miq, XM & Chris H. ; AFPhaghag to Stewart ; TGONTS ; B.F.
AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; Giver of(frnchsd)Scottish *hugs*n*kisses*
Suzi
> True, but you make them with the wrong kind of pastry - shortcrust instead
> of puff.
Pies *should* be made with shortcrust pastry... not this namby-pamby fly
away and flake all over the place stuff they seem to be made with by the
mass manufacturers :-( I'm glad to see that Tescos are now beginning
to get the idea and are producing some quite nice "home-baked" style
shortcrust pastry pies.
Suzi
--
.sig still feeling helpful... but showing signs of fatique
New to afp? mailto:afp-...@lspace.org and browse http://www.lspace.org/
New to Usenet posting? browse http://psg.com/emily.html
The Irrelevant page: http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/index.html
Emma of XXXXia
liszt.freeserve.co.uk says...
> But you can put other things in pies besides meat. Could have been
> worse... could have been an apple-pie floater...
>
>
ONLY be a meat pie! Witness the exclamations of shock at the proposal by
our government to remove the law specifying what amount of meat is
required in a pie for it to be a proper meat pie (funny that: they
complain if we remove the specifications of a meat pie from legislation,
but they whinge if we want to add the specs for a load of bread). Like
Mike said, when you say "pie" in Australia, you are inferring meat.
Emma
--
back in Canberra, thankyou.
in...@fdhoekstra.nl
>
> No no no no no no no no no! Argh! What are you saying? An Aussie
> pie can ONLY be a meat pie! Witness the exclamations of shock at
> the proposal by our government to remove the law specifying what
> amount of meat is required in a pie for it to be a proper meat
> inferring meat.
Just to be irritatingly inquisitive: what do vegetarian Aussies do
about this? Do they eat tofu pie floaters? But that would mean
there are non-meat pies. Don't they eat pie floaters at all?
That would make them rather unauthentic Aussies, wouldn't it?
Or do you mean to say that there is no such thing as an Australian
vegetarian?
Richard
Rudewind-Rustling BF, _Shad0w_, Chris Crowther BF
of wisdom:
Greetings Chris Horry
>: Neither do I. I always have a Steak pie w/ sausage and chips
>: from the Fish 'n' Chips shop.
>
>'eathen, have a Beef pie with curry :)
I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
[1] By like I mean they recognise my voice and my mothers voice
whenever we order take away and other they recognise everyone
else in the family by what we order.
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
dic...@Radix.Net (Richard Eney) wrote:
> In article <3767A81D...@cspl.com.au>,
> MikeXXXX <mic...@cspl.com.au> wrote:
> >Orin Thomas wrote:
>
> no real Spoiler - TLC
>
> <snip>
> >Inneke pointed out the quote in the front "This isn't a book
> >about Australia...", fair enough. no worries.
> >
> >been writing :-
> >
> >Can I have a white white coat please?
> >Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
> >No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
>
> about Australia, it's just vaguely australian." The word "australian"
> is not capitalized. That word means "austral-ian". The word
"austral"
> means "southern" (from Latin, "australis").
>
From his next comment I think Mike was actually calling "Meat pie
floater" a tautology, because of course nothing else comes in pies...
> >CMOTDibbler doesn't sell "meat sausage" inna bun, does he?
>
--
Dave, who practically lives on cheese'n'onion pies.
Ańejo
in message news:3769023...@supernews.nildram.co.uk...
> On 17 Jun 1999 14:51:13 +0100, Chris Horry wispered these words
> of wisdom:
> >: Neither do I. I always have a Steak pie w/ sausage and chips
> >: from the Fish 'n' Chips shop.
> >'eathen, have a Beef pie with curry :)
> I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
> Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
delicacy.
Añejo - feeling strangely peckish now...
Rudewind-Rustling BF, _Shad0w_, Chris Crowther BF
wisdom:
>> I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
>> Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
>
>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
>delicacy.
Ooh, I do that as well, steak pies tend to have gravy in them - I
normally have it upside down on my plate, with vinegar soaking
into it[1] - then I eat the pastry off the top[3] so I can dip my
chips and saussy[4] in it.
[1] The bottom is usualy a little concave so it makes a little
pool.[2]
[2] And yes, I know I'm strange.
[3] Well, bottom technicaly.
[4] Which can sometimes be a battered one or even a sav..
esmi
> MikeXXXX wrote:
<snip>
> I think I see what you are getting at. Pie implies
> "Meat Pie". Oddly enough the meat pie (of the australian
> 4 and 20 variety) is pretty much only an australian
> thing.
Oh yeh!
> Most Americans think of something sweet when
> you say pie (well the ones I know do) ... hence if it
> was left as "pie floater" the natural assumption would
> be "you put apple pie in pea soup? you are nuts!"
'cept for a Uker (especially a Northern one), there's not a lot to
misunderstand. The 'pie floater' reminded me very much of the 'meat pie
and mushy peas' you can obtain in most fish 'n' chips shops over here.
> Hand held size meat pies are something of an
> oddity once you get out of .au/.nz
I keep telling you...you're visiting all the wrong countries.
> Getting a meat pie in the USA is harder than getting
> vegemite in the USA. I have heard that there is an
> australian pie shop in Berkeley somewhere - and one
> day I will get desparate enough to drive there, bang
> some sauce on and have myself one. Damn now I want
> a pie ...
Memo to self: Remember to send Orin emergency meat pie food parcels when
he emigrates
esmi
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David Chapman
: On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:50:53 +0100, Añejo wispered these words of
: wisdom:
:>> I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
:>> Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
:>
:>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
:>delicacy.
The only problem with chips and gravy is that nobody outside the north of
Engalnd can get the recipe right...
--
Restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature.
2. Everything around us can be represented and understood by numbers.
3. If you graph the numbers of any system, patterns emerge.
Therefore, there are patterns everywhere in nature.
sent...@globalnet.co.uk
Sockii
> humans and Australia split off totally from Southgea (the
pedant point: Gondwana
> southern half of Pangea -- essentially what we now know as
> Australia, Africa, India, Antartica and South America along with
> some of the Pacific islands and stuff) there has been a
--
Sockii
"Research: paraphrasification of
multi-plagarism...original thoughts optional"
to reply, don't mumble
Emma of XXXXia
says...
> Just to be irritatingly inquisitive: what do vegetarian Aussies do
> about this? Do they eat tofu pie floaters? But that would mean
> there are non-meat pies. Don't they eat pie floaters at all?
> That would make them rather unauthentic Aussies, wouldn't it?
> Or do you mean to say that there is no such thing as an Australian
> vegetarian?
Can't say I've ever seen a vegetarian pie floater. However, I have seen a
vegetarian pie - there's a Gourmet Pie shop across the road from my place
that makes low-fat pumpkin pies and vege pasties. Yummy, but I personally
prefer the pasta and bacon pies (yes I have seen Babe, no it didn't put
me off pork... we used to kill our own meat when I was a kid, although I
agree with the principles of vegetarianism to a degree). So I guess an
Aussie can be vegetarian, cos we do make vege pies. Having eaten a pie
floater is not, however, a requirement for citizenship as it's really an
Adelaide thing (ie not common in the major Eastern cities yet).
Emma
--
Remove TT to email me. Cheese messages welcome.
afpianceed to various people who may or may not
like cheese. afpsister to persons who may or may
not be Isrealies.
Mark Adri-Soejoko
Ańejo <an...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7kb216$ho$1...@library.lspace.org...
>
> Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
> delicacy.
>
> Ańejo - feeling strangely peckish now...
>
>
Is that with or without the batter bits?
My beloved when visiting her sister up North almost had a heart attack when
she saw that being served.
I just can't handle the fact that you cannot get a saveloy in Yorkshire.
Mark
--
Mark Adri-Soejoko
Tallish, Darkish, Sort of Handsome?
ma...@adri-soejoko.freeserve.co.uk
Andrew Eremin
> In article <7k9922$225$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, jonathan@franz-
> liszt.freeserve.co.uk says...
> > But you can put other things in pies besides meat. Could have been
> > worse... could have been an apple-pie floater...
> >
> >
> No no no no no no no no no! Argh! What are you saying? An Aussie pie can
> ONLY be a meat pie! Witness the exclamations of shock at the proposal by
> our government to remove the law specifying what amount of meat is
> required in a pie for it to be a proper meat pie (funny that: they
> complain if we remove the specifications of a meat pie from legislation,
> but they whinge if we want to add the specs for a load of bread). Like
> Mike said, when you say "pie" in Australia, you are inferring meat.
I seem to recall from "Stark" by Ben Elton that the evil Australian
business tycoon character (obviously any similarity to characters living or
dead etc...) started career asset-stripping his former-friends food company
when the introductio of - shock horror - cheese'n'ham pies devalued the
share price .
Andy
Meg Thornton
XXXXia) wrote:
>Can't say I've ever seen a vegetarian pie floater. However, I have seen a
>vegetarian pie - there's a Gourmet Pie shop across the road from my place
>that makes low-fat pumpkin pies and vege pasties. Yummy, but I personally
>prefer the pasta and bacon pies (yes I have seen Babe, no it didn't put
>me off pork... we used to kill our own meat when I was a kid, although I
>agree with the principles of vegetarianism to a degree). So I guess an
>Aussie can be vegetarian, cos we do make vege pies. Having eaten a pie
>floater is not, however, a requirement for citizenship as it's really an
>Adelaide thing (ie not common in the major Eastern cities yet).
>
It's also not a common thing in WA either. Those Croweaters are just
plain *wierd*. Must be something to do with the water.
--
Meg Thornton (mag...@megabitch.tm)
Jeff Cooper
says...
> Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
> delicacy.
Aha! Sprinkle on a few cheese curds[1] and you have that most Quebecois
of delicacies, the Poutine.
[1] some places are known to use shredded mozzarella, but what do you
expect for the Left Coast? We're just weird out here.
--
Jeff C
Replace "Munged 'at'NOSPAM.invalid" with "jecooper'at'Direct.CA" to
reply.
Medusa
<an...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
>delicacy.
>
>Ańejo - feeling strangely peckish now...
>
No no nono nonononnoononoo!!!!!
Chips with flaked chicken off the bone with their own recipe curry sauce
from my local chippy for Ł1.90 - ahhhh - Heaven!
--
Medusa
From Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous
Proud to be afpianced to Tachyon, and afpsis to SamF
Change jinkx to euryale to reply
Jennifer Gray
write:
>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
>delicacy.
Or apple bonbons. Mmm.
The only place I've found that does them properly is Robin Hood's Bay so
they must count as northern.
Love from
Jennifer
You've got me started now - haven't had any apple bonbons for ages...
--
AFPniece to Irina, AFPiancee to Shim, AFPsister to James, also a Guardian Angel
in Heaven's Little Angels. :-)
AFPcode 1.1a: AE d- s-: a--- UP+ R++ F++ h- P-- OS: C+++ M-- pp L+ c+ B+ Cn-
PT--- PU66- 5! X-- MT e--> r? x- end
Julia Jones
<funky...@hotmail.com> writes
>Having eaten a pie
>floater is not, however, a requirement for citizenship as it's really an
>Adelaide thing (ie not common in the major Eastern cities yet).
I'd never heard of it until the subject came up in connection with
Pterry.
Heather Knowles
<Med...@euryale.demon.co.uk> writes
>Chips with flaked chicken off the bone with their own recipe curry sauce
>
<materialising> You called? :)
House Special Curry and chips from the local Chinese takeaway. As
Chinese as my elbow, but scrummy.
--
luv Heaven: Nanny Ogg to Stewart's Coven, snug in the Molehill, At
One with Mad Purple Dragon and co, Keeper of Heaven's Little Angels,
and afpfiancée to Miq, Archangel Michael (*hug*). 53% AFPure.
Son of Pedro
wrote:
>Rudewind-Rustling BF, _Shad0w_, Chris Crowther BF
><sha...@seth.nildram.co.uk> stated:
>: On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:50:53 +0100, Ańejo wispered these words of
>: wisdom:
>
>:>> I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
>:>> Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
>:>
>:>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
>:>delicacy.
>
>The only problem with chips and gravy is that nobody outside the north of
>Engalnd can get the recipe right...
Nobody outside of the north of England *wants* to get the recipie
right...
This is almost as bad as talking about spiders the size of
dinnerplates, and eating 'em in your sleep
<shudder>
Gareth
AFPfiance to Laurabelle
--
"Is it a good read, the Bible?"
"It's OK. To be honest, it trails off a bit after the death of the hero.
He hangs himself from a tree with 30 pieces of silver in his pocket."
Thomas on the Bible, Old Harry's Game, BBC Radio 4
Ian Cargill
writes
>
>I think it was the tautology of the phrase. He might have
>been writing :-
>
>Can I have a white white coat please?
>Perhaps I'll take the black black taxi.
>No, here comes the steam steam train. :)
It is only tautology if you assume that ALL pies are invariably made of
meat. They aren't.
--
Ian Cargill
Chris Sloan
wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:11:28 +1000, funky...@hotmail.com (Emma of
>XXXXia) wrote:
>
>>Having eaten a pie
>>floater is not, however, a requirement for citizenship as it's really an
>>Adelaide thing (ie not common in the major Eastern cities yet).
>>
>It's also not a common thing in WA either. Those Croweaters are just
>plain *wierd*. Must be something to do with the water.
Oi! I would represent that remark, if I weren't an immigrant :-P
mumblemumblemumbleI don't know, you go away for a month and people
start slagging off your state, what's the world coming
tomumblemumblemumble
Cheers,
Chris
--
Chris Sloan - Adelaide, South Australia
[Remove "s" to email]
If the Librarian's an orang-utan, then a Cataloguer must be a gorilla
... rarer, and not safe enough to be let out in public
Emma of XXXXia
I...@soliton.demon.co.uk says...
> It is only tautology if you assume that ALL pies are invariably made of
> meat. They aren't.
>
>
contains meat unless it says otherwise.
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
ga...@ultimate42.freeserve.co.uk (Son of Pedro) wrote:
> At some point in the history of the afp multiverse, David Chapman
> wrote:
>
> >Rudewind-Rustling BF, _Shad0w_, Chris Crowther BF
> ><sha...@seth.nildram.co.uk> stated:
> >: wisdom:
> >
> >:>> I have been known to cover them in Curry Sauce as well, the
> >:>> Chinese restraunt I like[1] is just around the corner :)
> >:>
> >:>Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
> >:>delicacy.
> >
> >The only problem with chips and gravy is that nobody outside the
north of
> >Engalnd can get the recipe right...
>
> Nobody outside of the north of England *wants* to get the recipie
> right...
>
> This is almost as bad as talking about spiders the size of
> dinnerplates, and eating 'em in your sleep
> <shudder>
Ergh! Where'd you get that from?
As long as we're talking about chippies, has anyone here tries that
famous Scottish delicacy the Deep Fried Mars Bar? I haven't; I can feel
my arteries clogging just by hearing the phrase.
--
Dave, who believes in a healthy diet, but doesn't have one.
Mark A. Cooper
Daibhid Cheinnedelh <D.M.K...@sms.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message:
> As long as we're talking about chippies, has anyone here tries that
> famous Scottish delicacy the Deep Fried Mars Bar? I haven't; I can feel
> my arteries clogging just by hearing the phrase.
Not just Scottish - it's also available in The Yellow Fisherman, a chip shop
in Ashford, Kent (worth knowing if there's ever a mid-Kent meet [1]). They
also do deep-fried Snickers [2] bars...
Mark
[1] Yeah right - and if there was, I've probably missed it... *sigh*
[2] Why couldn't they have left the name as "Marathon"? I know *why* they
changed it [3] - but I think it was a pointless change...
[3] Because it was the international name for the chocolate-coated treat...
--
---
Mark A. Cooper, son of Duchess Sybil Ramkin of Yorkshire
"A word is the concatenation of phonetic vocalisations which is only
rendered comprehensible upon application of the grammatical, pronunciation
and syntactical norms of the language of intended usage." - by me
David Chapman
news:376e...@news2.vip.uk.com...
>
> Daibhid Cheinnedelh <D.M.K...@sms.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message:
>
> > As long as we're talking about chippies, has anyone here tries that
> > famous Scottish delicacy the Deep Fried Mars Bar? I haven't; I can feel
> > my arteries clogging just by hearing the phrase.
>
> Not just Scottish - it's also available in The Yellow Fisherman, a chip
shop
> in Ashford, Kent (worth knowing if there's ever a mid-Kent meet [1]). They
> also do deep-fried Snickers [2] bars...
>
Ah, but the Mars Bar supper (Mars Bar and chips to you Englanders) was
*invented* in Inverbervie, about 25 miles from where I live. So it's
Scottish, and don't you southern ba*ds try appropriating it.
<expects return post stating how the English originally spoke Gaelic and
invented the bagpipes>
Kincaid
David Chapman <sent...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> <expects return post stating how the English originally spoke Gaelic and
> invented the bagpipes>
We already knew that. Are you trying to tell us that the Scots dont?
<GD&RVVVVVVF>
TTFN, Karl
LoneWolf
Adri-Soejoko" <ma...@adri-soejoko.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Ańejo <an...@anejo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7kb216$ho$1...@library.lspace.org...
>
>>
>> Nonono - you want chips'n'gravy. A proper Northern
>> delicacy.
>>
>> Ańejo - feeling strangely peckish now...
>
>Is that with or without the batter bits?
Walking out of a chippy without scrumps is just heretical -
especially as almost all (IME) give 'em away free[0].
>My beloved when visiting her sister up North almost had a heart attack when
>she saw that being served.
Chips & gravy or scrumps?
>I just can't handle the fact that you cannot get a saveloy in Yorkshire.
Only cocktail sausages?
[0] Some stingy ba*ds don't, tho', grr
--
LoneWolf
Lone...@btinternet.com
ICQ: 10385934
Illacrimate lupo solitario
Uncle Pedro
<sent...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Ah, but the Mars Bar supper (Mars Bar and chips to you Englanders) was
>*invented* in Inverbervie, about 25 miles from where I live. So it's
>Scottish, and don't you southern ba*ds try appropriating it.
>
>invented the bagpipes>
Gaelic, and dented the bagpipes in the hopes that they would
either sound tuneful or silent.....;o)
Seriously tho', I don't think for one moment that there is much
danger of the Sassenachs (sp?) claiming any form of responsibility
for the 'device which maketh a skirling wail' (and I do _not_ mean
Kenneth McKeller!). Certainly enough to strike fear into the soul
of anyone within a mile or so of the things <eg>
thankyou, the one with the interesting plaid pattern on the
lining...
Uncle Pedro
enjoying the ORG-Y with Co. and one or two others, apparently...
--
- coat, kettle; kettle, coat - no contest "tea anyone?"
Danny
funky...@hotmail.com (Emma of XXXXia), and they spake of Re: [R] The Last
Continent - LONG LONG LONG:
>In article <R2vBXOBr...@soliton.demon.co.uk>,
>I...@soliton.demon.co.uk says...
>> It is only tautology if you assume that ALL pies are invariably made of
>> meat. They aren't.
>>
>>
>You mean they aren't where you come from. Here, we do assume a pie
>contains meat unless it says otherwise.
Not so. I quite often eat apple pies, fruit pies, spinach pies, etc etc
but when you say "pie" it usually refers to a meat pie (the square or
oval ones, that are marginally warm in the back of the Deli^H^H^Hibbler's
warmer) which contain a minimum of 25% meat. Uuurgh, don't think I'll be
eating too many more of them. So you're half right.[1]
>
>Emma
Still in Adelaide?
Seeya. Danny.
[1] presumably half left too.
--
+-----------------------+--------------------------------------------+
|Danny @ Scoutnet.net.au|http://come.to/grovers http://surf.to/scouts|
|GRovers South Australia| http://www.scoutnet.net.au/users/Danny/ |
+-----------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Richard Eney
Uncle Pedro <pe...@infinity2000.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:27:25 +0100, "David Chapman"
><sent...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>><expects return post stating how the English originally spoke Gaelic and
>>invented the bagpipes>
>
>whereas of course we all know that originally, the English smoked
>Gaelic, and dented the bagpipes in the hopes that they would
>either sound tuneful or silent.....;o)
>
>Seriously tho', I don't think for one moment that there is much
>danger of the Sassenachs (sp?) claiming any form of responsibility
>for the 'device which maketh a skirling wail'
Bagpipes were pretty commonly spread over the ancient world. There are
Greek, Armenian, Macedonian, etc. bagpipes, not to mention the differences
between the Welsh and the Irish forms. They are associated with the Scots
mostly because the Scots chose them as a national symbol instead of the
harp (which they also used).
NB the rest of Europe used them too but adapted them into the larger form
known as the church organ. (Pump it up, make sound come out of extended
pipes, close stops on some of them to make different notes while others
are drones. The only difference is size, and as any fule kno, size
doesn't count.)
=Tamar
Paul E. Jamison
>
[snip for JUSTICE!]
>
> NB the rest of Europe used them too but adapted them into the larger form
> known as the church organ. (Pump it up, make sound come out of extended
> pipes, close stops on some of them to make different notes while others
> are drones. The only difference is size, and as any fule kno, size
> doesn't count.)
>
I thought about this for a few minutes, and I followed this to the logical
conclusion. Which is: does this mean that you could play a Bach fugue
on the bagpipes? Somebody tell me I'm wrong (Please!).
Paul E. Jamison, Esq.
--
"BABYLON 5! A five-mile long cement mixer of truth, pouring out the
Concrete of Nice-Nice in a long, grey ribbon into the future, to form a
***SIDE WALK OF JUSTICE!!***"
- The Tick on Babylon 5
Richard Eney
>[snip for JUSTICE!]
>> NB the rest of Europe used them too but adapted them into the larger form
>> known as the church organ. (Pump it up, make sound come out of extended
>> pipes, close stops on some of them to make different notes while others
>> are drones. The only difference is size, and as any fule kno, size
>> doesn't count.)
>
>I thought about this for a few minutes, and I followed this to the logical
>conclusion. Which is: does this mean that you could play a Bach fugue
>on the bagpipes? Somebody tell me I'm wrong (Please!).
Didn't P.D.Q.Bach write a Sonata for Bagpipe, Bicycle, and Bassoon?
ISTR he also wrote something for bagpipe and harp ("people neglect the
visual aspect of music. The harp is pretty. Look at the harp while you
listen.") but UCBW.
=Tamar
Mike Knell
> Bagpipes were pretty commonly spread over the ancient world. There are
> Greek, Armenian, Macedonian, etc. bagpipes, not to mention the differences
> between the Welsh and the Irish forms.
Er, don't forget the Northumbrian pipes (get hold of a Kathryn
Tickell album for further details). They sound very similiar to
the Uillean pipes, and use a similiar underarm bellows arrangement.
I'm not aware of bagpipes being used extensively in the Welsh
tradition - can anyone correct me on this? I've always had them
down more as harpists then pipers..
The fame of the Great Highland Pipe (as it is known) is probably
largely due to its role in military bands over the last (foo)
years - not so much that it was explicitly "chosen" as a symbol
of Scotland in the same way as the harp is _the_ symbol of Ireland
(the thistle performs that task) but that it's been heard in a lot
of places other than Scotland and has become identified with
Scottish culture whereever it goes. (images of Groundskeeper
Willie and the walking bagpipe-spiders drift into my mind...)
Lots of pipes at http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/bagpipes/, after
a quick Yahoo search..
Mike "closet folkie" K.
David Chapman
news:7l49b9$62o$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
> Didn't P.D.Q.Bach write a Sonata for Bagpipe, Bicycle, and Bassoon?
>
No, that was for Shagbut, Minikin and Flemish Clacket.
Kjetil Aavik
> Richard Eney <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
> news:7l49b9$62o$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
>
> > Didn't P.D.Q.Bach write a Sonata for Bagpipe, Bicycle, and Bassoon?
> >
>
> No, that was for Shagbut, Minikin and Flemish Clacket.
Kjell Aukrust, a Norwegian author/artist, once composed Sonata for
Double-barreled Shotgun, Opus Three (I think it was), live on
television, by firing a shotgun at a blank score (is there such a thing?
Or does it become a score when it's finished? And who has the record
anyway?). A pianist then played it by playing the holes as notes. Right
up there with some of the best contemporary music, IMO.
-Kjetil Aavik
http://www.nlo.no/starcraft/watch/
ICQ#9720539