[A] Wintersmith (First Thoughts...)
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE
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First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact, and
have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other through
the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry someone at
the publishers out of it being a children's book?
Back cover:
A Vetruvian Snowman, presumably symbolising the Wintersmith's
"Making of a Man".
p28
"Witches said things like 'You can never be too old, too
skinny or too warty'"
"You can never be too thin or too rich" -Wallis Simpson, I
think.
p39
"There was a story in the villages that the clock was Miss
Treason's heart"
There are lots of stories of witches putting their life
essence somwehere else by magic (is it part of Baba Yaga's
myth?), but I was also reminded of the film version of top
boffo-merchant the Wizard of Oz, who gave the Tin Woodsman a
clock for a heart.
p41
"The loom worried them."
And well it might; Miss Treason is basically increasing her
reputation as Justice by becoming the local incarnation of
Fate.
p42
"The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
Anyone else?
p49
"'This is a Morris dance.'"
The Dark Morris was first mentioned in Reaper Man.
p53
"Witch-hunting for Dumb People"
Parodies the "For Dummies" books.
p72
"Chaffinch's Ancient and Classical Mythology"
The RW version is "The Age of Fable" by Thomas Bulfinch,
better known as "Bulfinch's Mythology".
"The Dacne of the Sneasos"
While this doesn't appear to be based on an actual painting,
it's pretty much what the personifications of Summer and
Winter traditionally look like.
p86
"'And did you hear that I walk around at night at the dark
time of the year and...'"
Obviously this is another Hogswatch gift-giving/punishment
legend. I'm sure the bit about the thumbnail comes from a
genuine witch-legend, as well.
p87
"'And the one about me having a cow's tail?'"
There's apparently a kind of Norwegian witch-fairy called a
huldra, who has a cow's tail.
p114
"General Callus Tacticus"
Pedantry: In "Jingo", "Veni, Vidi Vici" is by Gen. A Tacticus.
Possibly his full first name was Aricallus, or something...
p121
"or every time the Grim Reaper came for her she lied about her
name or sent him to another person."
I *think* this is how some trickster gods got their
immortality.
p123
"Inside-out cake"
Presumably not *quite* the same thing as upside-down cake.
p124
"'Everyone around there is literally frightened out of their
lives!'"
Apparently Annagramma never did get round to learning what
"literally" actually means (HfoS).
p125
"Unlucky Charlie"
A scarecrow, as seen in TSaLF. According to NOC, being a
target at the Witch Trials for years has left him a bit
magical, and he tends to move around when no-one's looking.
p170
"MISS EUMENIDES TREASON"
The Eumenides are the proper name for the Furies. A good name
for Miss Treason, the terrifying figure of Justice.
p218
"'The Summer Lady doesn't walk above the ground in winter'"
Sort of Persephone, although technically it's Persephone's mum
who's the Summer Lady, and she just goes on strike until her
daughter comes back.
p233
"PASSION'S PLAYTHING by Marjory J. Boddice"
When I was doing my six weeks at the central library, I had to
sort out all the Mills & Boons, and I'll swear half the
authors were called Marjory, and two thirds of them used a
middle initial. And "Boddice" as in "bodice-ripper".
p239
"'iron enough to make a nail'"
Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it. The
last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't seem to be
there.
p240
"'Is there any chance you could take us flying?'"
The snowman in The Snowman, by Raymond Briggs takes the boy
who built him flying to the North Pole to meet Father
Christmas. In the animated version, this became the best known
scene, due to the musical number "Walking in the Air". Which
*wasn't* performed by Aled Jones, although he released the
single.
p261
"'They want me to do stuck zips'"
I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
Discworld get zips?
p263
"'I used to be a volcano goddess ... And the god of storms was
always raining on my lava."
Based on a similar line in Going Postal, she may have been
going by the name Lela at this time.
p289
Greek lettering
Again, I've decided translation is someone else's job.
p306
"'You have to start small, with oak trees'"
When Tiffany is considering how to changing the Chalk attitude
to witchcraft at the end of WFM, she thinks "you have to start
small, like acorns".
p340
"'Orpheo rescuing Euniphon from the Underworld'"
Orpheus and Euridyce.
Spelling Orpheus "Orpheo" has a bit of tradition behind it;
there's a 14th century ballad called Sir Orfeo, in which the
titular knight must rescue Heurodis from the fairies. But Tiff
and Roland have already done that one.
p343
"Once you got respect, you'd got everything"
Granny's philosophy, from the other side.
p349
"She reached down and pulled out, covered in slime and scales,
but recognisably itself, the silver horse."
Famous myth, associated with (amongst others) St Mungo of
Glasgow. Nanny Ogg refers to it in Wyrd Sisters.
"he was bringing the winter into her heart. She could feel it
growing colder."
This sort of reminded me of Kay, in The Snow Queen, who gets a
shard of the Queen's mirror in his heart.
p361
"'Like mebbe dead when they shouldn't be an' there's nae place
for 'em tae go ... This one used tae be called Limbo, ye ken,
cuz the door was verrae low.'"
In Catholic theology (or possibly just in Catholic popular
myth), people who were basically good, but didn't have the
chance to become Christians end up in Limbo. The name has
nothing to do with limbo-dancing.
p365
"'Like a bird on the boa-'"
Somehow, the unround round of Row, Row Your Boat has picked up
a garbled line from the Skye Boat Song.
p368
"'One verrae big dog wi' three heads.'"
Cerebus
p369
"Just before it hit the water a white arm reached out and
caught it."
The Lady of the Lake, when Bedivere threw Excalibur back when
Arthur was dying.
p375
"'Ach, we warsnae doon here more'n two hour an' bang went
saxpence!'"
See the annotation for p168 of the Wee Free Men.
p384
"She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of Annagramma."
When it looked like Tiffany was going to get a cottage she
didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her trying to take it
from her, because that's what *she'd* have done. The Summer
Lady's reaction to Tiffany "stealing" her role is indeed
pretty much the same.
p388
"A doll, maybe, made out of lots of twigs bound together"
I've not seen the Blair Witch Project, but I know these were
in it.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"The need to compile lists is a personality disorder,
as is the need to assert the superiority of some things
over other things."
-Jeremy Hardy
T.M. Sommers
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> "'Orpheo rescuing Euniphon from the Underworld'"
> Orpheus and Euridyce.
>
> Spelling Orpheus "Orpheo" has a bit of tradition behind it;
It's just the Italian version of the name (modulo the 'ph' == 'f'
thing). See, for instance, Monteverdi's "Orfeo", 1607.
--
Thomas M. Sommers -- t...@nj.net -- AB2SB
Torak
> "The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
> it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
> and INNOCENCE."
> A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
> comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
> Anyone else?
Good question. Could have something to do with Enoch, the language
Enochian, or something?
"Athootita" sounds like it could be some sort of Manuel-with-a-headcold
saying "Justitia". Just a very long shot guess sort of thing.
> p87
> "'And the one about me having a cow's tail?'"
> There's apparently a kind of Norwegian witch-fairy called a
> huldra, who has a cow's tail.
Not just Norwegian. We've got *lots* of nasty beasties running around
the woods in Scandinavia - women with hollow backs, fox tails and a
dislike for clothing; naked blokes fiddling away in the middle of
rivers; lunatics without clothes diving screaming out of buildings into
frozen lakes in the middle of winter... oh no, those are real. Never
mind. Either way, there seems to be a pattern developing.
> p114
> "General Callus Tacticus"
> Pedantry: In "Jingo", "Veni, Vidi Vici" is by Gen. A Tacticus.
> Possibly his full first name was Aricallus, or something...
Or maybe he had a brother.
> p123
> "Inside-out cake"
> Presumably not *quite* the same thing as upside-down cake.
Could be a nuisance with those cakes with a jam filling.
> p170
> "MISS EUMENIDES TREASON"
> The Eumenides are the proper name for the Furies. A good name
> for Miss Treason, the terrifying figure of Justice.
I still wouldn't trust her, with a name like that. I'd keep looking over
my shoulder.
> p261
> "'They want me to do stuck zips'"
> I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
> Discworld get zips?
"Zip" is actually ancient Greek for "really fat horses who get stuck in
stable doors". Not a lot of people know that.
Honest. No, really. :-p
> p388
> "A doll, maybe, made out of lots of twigs bound together"
> I've not seen the Blair Witch Project, but I know these were
> in it.
I haven't seen it either. Is it any good?
Arthur Hagen
> "The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
> it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
> and INNOCENCE."
> A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
> comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
> Anyone else?
Try searching for "Enoch". As for ATHOOTITA, well, ATH0 means disconnect,
and -otita is a Greek ending used in words like timiotita (honesty). That
said, I found a book named Antio Athootita by Ron Handberg, so apparently
it's a word in itself.
Regards,
--
*Art
Terry Pratchett
<daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
>Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
>Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
>
>SPOILER SPACE
>
>I
>
>p239
>"'iron enough to make a nail'"
>Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
>Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it. The
>last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't seem to be
>there.
Believe me or not, but I've never heard that version. When I was a kid--
and still now -- you get / got these 'The human body contains enough
iron to make a nail' articles[1], so I dug up a list of 'ingredients'
and assembled the song from scratch, finding suitable uses that would
work in Tiffany's world. On the farm, sulphur would be a pest control
and fumigant, for example.
There is in fact not a huge overlap with the only Joad version I can
find on-line, and I doubt if he would have countenanced the last three
lines:-)
[1] An Edwardian version says: "It would take the iron in the blood of
thousand men to make a ploughshare."
ps: Discworld could easily have zips!
robcraine
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
First things first: applause. I'm always impressed by whoever starts
this thread off... now its our turn to pick holes in things, and say
"why didn't you get that obvious reference?"
But didn't there used to be some sort of moratorium on discussing the
[A]s until about a week after the publishing date? Oh well.... thats
probably the Old Fart coming through, I won't let it stop me
continuing.
> p261
> "'They want me to do stuck zips'"
> I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
> Discworld get zips?
>
Presumably quite recently.... otherwise someone else would already have
the 'stuck zips' job. Apparently something rather like the zip was
first patented in 1851
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa082497.htm so the Discworld
is probably at something close to 'zip time.'
Umm.... thats all I've got. You covered the ones I could remember, and
I've only read the thing once so far!
Rob
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
> In message <Xns9849BA75...@130.133.1.4>, Daibhid
> Ceanaideach <daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
>>Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off
>>the Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
>>
>>SPOILER SPACE
>>
>>I
>>".
>>
>>p239
>>"'iron enough to make a nail'"
>>Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
>>Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it.
>>The last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't
>>seem to be there.
>
> Believe me or not, but I've never heard that version. When
> I was a kid-- and still now -- you get / got these 'The
> human body contains enough iron to make a nail'
> articles[1], so I dug up a list of 'ingredients' and
> assembled the song from scratch, finding suitable uses that
> would work in Tiffany's world. On the farm, sulphur would
> be a pest control and fumigant, for example.
I believe you. It just attracted my attention because while,
as you say, the ingredients aren't the same the format struck
me as similar.
> There is in fact not a huge overlap with the only Joad
> version I can find on-line, and I doubt if he would have
> countenanced the last three lines:-)
Yep, most of the online refs I found were religious websites
pointing out the omission.
> [1] An Edwardian version says: "It would take the iron in
> the blood of thousand men to make a ploughshare."
>
> ps: Discworld could easily have zips!
Fair enough 8-).
8'FED
> Daibhid Ceanaideach writes
>>p239
>>"'iron enough to make a nail'"
>>Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
>>Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it. The
>>last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't seem to be
>>there.
>
> Believe me or not, but I've never heard that version. When I was a kid--
> and still now -- you get / got these 'The human body contains enough iron to
> make a nail' articles[1], so I dug up a list of 'ingredients' and assembled
> the song from scratch, finding suitable uses that would work in Tiffany's
> world. On the farm, sulphur would be a pest control and fumigant, for example.
I haven't read the book (actually, I haven't yet read any of the
Tiffany books) but I only recall coming across that wording, "X enough
to Y a Z", in one place.
That place happens to be an English translation of some of the ancient
regulations about what constitutes a burden on the Jewish Sabbath, as
quoted in a Bible commentary or two that's come my way. "Milk enough
for one swallow, honey enough to put upon a wound, paper enough to
write a customs house notice upon, ink enough to write two letters of
the alphabet, reed enough to make a pen". That sort of thing.
A conversation with a non-Jewish Israeli once lead to an excellent
question being raised: is it milk enough for a European swallow, or an
African one?
Completely irrelevant (so I'll remove abp), but fun to mention.
Adrian.
RuneMaster
> A conversation with a non-Jewish Israeli once lead to an excellent
> question being raised: is it milk enough for a European swallow, or an
> African one?
>
Blue.....No, Greenaaaarrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
--
Insert clever/witty/deep sig here
Keith Edgerley
"Daibhid Ceanaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote
>it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
>and INNOCENCE."
>A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
>comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
>Anyone else?
Yes, they are in fact the Greek words for guilt and innocence.
Keith Edgerleey
SteveD
<daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>The time: 26 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The
>speaker: Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
>> ps: Discworld could easily have zips!
>
>Fair enough 8-).
An afp resident is just going to take an author's word for it?
<faints in shock>
-SteveD
Torak
> <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>>speaker: Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
>>
>>>ps: Discworld could easily have zips!
>>
>>Fair enough 8-).
>
> An afp resident is just going to take an author's word for it?
>
> <faints in shock>
Zips on DW?
It's only a matter of time before the Watch have modern black combat
jackets and those little rows of black-and-white Battenburg... :-)
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: "Keith Edgerley" <edger...@bluewin.ch>
So they are, thanks.
CCA
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:00:39 +0930, 8'FED <dra...@netyp.com.au> wrote:
> > A conversation with a non-Jewish Israeli once lead to an excellent
> > question being raised: is it milk enough for a European swallow, or an
> > African one?
> Blue.....No, Greenaaaarrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Okay, I believe that'll be twenty pence, thank you!
CCA
Arthur Hagen
Note that he said "could have", which, in my ears at least, carries an
implicit negative.
She could easily have saved the child. (But she didn't.)
Tony Blair could easily have resigned last year. (But he didn't.)
USA could easily have democracy. (But it doesn't.)
Discworld could easily have zips! (And now it does.)
I started reading Wintersmith yesterday, but so far, I'm not too impressed.
Obligatory spoiler space:
Today
is
Hevensday
5
Winterfilth
7470
and
on
this
day
in
1419,
Gandalf
and
the
Hobbits
left
Rivendell.
The first thing that struck me was how everything is now /explained/. First
you have a Feegle glossary for the language/imagination challenged. Then
you have a description of the broomstick Tiffany is riding: "It's got two
smaller broomsticks stuck on the back like training wheels, to stop it from
tipping over." Is it just me, or is everything after "back" superfluous,
and explains a reference the readers normally would enjoy discovering
themselves in a DW book? Right after that, there's a lengthy explanation of
cackling, which I can only presume is there for new readers.
As for an annotation, in Chapter 2, "Tiffany thought of it as the
"I'm-not-here-spell" and "You were receiving their I-am-here signal" might
be a reference to Vernor Vinge's "Tatja Grimm's World", where the dorfox
transmits an "I'm-not-here" signal.
Also, I wonder whether the e-book version differs with respect to footnotes.
In the e-book, I see:
text text text text text
text text text text text
( comment comment comment
comment comment comment
( another comment comment
comment comment )
text text text text
Are these supposed to be footnotes, and whoever "set" the e-book didn't know
that the peanutpress e-book format directly supports footnotes, and instead
invented a system with unbalanced parentheses? It looks odd, no matter
what.
I am pretty sure that the following in the e-book is due to the e-book
setter not knowing his job or bothering to do it:
(wrapping the clock in a blanket) "so that the /clonk-clank/ became
/clonk-clank/ ." Unless I'm very mistaken, the second /clonk-clank/ would
be in a smaller font in the paper version, and could easily have been so in
the e-book version too. As it was left, it just looks stupid.
At least this e-book version doesn't seem to have all the scannos of Thud!,
which is good.
Regards,
--
*Art
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: "Arthur Hagen" <a...@broomstick.com>
Yeeaah... I think the important thing to remember is that,
regardless of how it's being packaged, it was almost certainly
*written* as a kids' book. The earlier Tiffany books were like
this as well (the first didn't have the glossary, though, so
the young reader could share Tiff's incomprehension). As a
kids' book, it's actually not too bad at that sort of thing;
I've seen kids' books which would have felt it necessary to
explain what a witch is, and started the cackling explanation
with "It was a kind of nasty laugh witches were supposed to
have" (assuming they didn't decide the whole metaphor was too
much for youngsters to cope with, which they probably would
have).
> As for an annotation, in Chapter 2, "Tiffany thought of it
> as the "I'm-not-here-spell" and "You were receiving their
> I-am-here signal" might be a reference to Vernor Vinge's
> "Tatja Grimm's World", where the dorfox transmits an
> "I'm-not-here" signal.
>
> Also, I wonder whether the e-book version differs with
> respect to footnotes. In the e-book, I see:
>
> text text text text text
> text text text text text
> ( comment comment comment
> comment comment comment
> ( another comment comment
> comment comment )
> text text text text
>
> Are these supposed to be footnotes, and whoever "set" the
> e-book didn't know that the peanutpress e-book format
> directly supports footnotes, and instead invented a system
> with unbalanced parentheses? It looks odd, no matter what.
I think that must be the footnotes; there's certainly nothing
like it in the paper version.
> I am pretty sure that the following in the e-book is due to
> the e-book setter not knowing his job or bothering to do
> it: (wrapping the clock in a blanket) "so that the
> /clonk-clank/ became /clonk-clank/ ." Unless I'm very
> mistaken, the second /clonk-clank/ would be in a smaller
> font in the paper version, and could easily have been so in
> the e-book version too. As it was left, it just looks
> stupid.
Yep. And the "normal" /clonk clank/ is in a slightly larger
font than the rest of the text, which I'm guessing the ebook
doesn't bother with.
Arthur Hagen
And kids should be treated as ignorant and/or stupid? I disagree. They
learn through discovery much more than they learn by being spoon fed.
>> I am pretty sure that the following in the e-book is due to
>> the e-book setter not knowing his job or bothering to do
>> it: (wrapping the clock in a blanket) "so that the
>> /clonk-clank/ became /clonk-clank/ ." Unless I'm very
>> mistaken, the second /clonk-clank/ would be in a smaller
>> font in the paper version, and could easily have been so in
>> the e-book version too. As it was left, it just looks
>> stupid.
>
> Yep. And the "normal" /clonk clank/ is in a slightly larger
> font than the rest of the text, which I'm guessing the ebook
> doesn't bother with.
It's certainly doable, and easy too, whether using the eBook Studio or
markup. I'm sure that a slip like this wouldn't be allowed in the paper
version. Why are the e-book versions so much more sloppily made?
Regards,
--
*Art
Daibhid Ceanaideach
I disagree too (or I would if there was anyone in the
discussion to disagree with). I just don't think that's what
Pterry is doing, at least not compared to other children's
authors whom I don't like because they do that.
He's added training brooms, but he's not steering it for
them...
Ross
<5ea1e$451a4c19$d5594586$30...@news.chello.se>, seen in
alt.fan.pratchett:
[...]
> It's only a matter of time before the Watch have modern black combat
> jackets and those little rows of black-and-white Battenburg... :-)
And Sgt. Colon in a hi-vis traffic jacket...?
--
Ross, in Lincoln. Opinions are my own; my employer has disowned me again.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.
Demonstration of poor photography: <http://www.rosspix.me.uk>
AD: <http://www.merciacharters.co.uk> for European charters occasionally gripped by me
Torak
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:01:46 +0200, Torak wrote in
>
>
>>It's only a matter of time before the Watch have modern black combat
>>jackets and those little rows of black-and-white Battenburg... :-)
>
> And Sgt. Colon in a hi-vis traffic jacket...?
Driving a big shiny five hundred horse-power police cart with reflective
battenburgs down the side.
And Nobby on the roof flashing a blue torch at people.
Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
mythology.
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best puns (IMO) that Terry
has come up with.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.
Arthur Hagen
Yeah, too bad that he then beats the life out of it and flogs the corpse by
repeating it over and over again. It was funny the first time. Not the
fifth.
--
*Art
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: "Arthur Hagen" <a...@broomstick.com>
> Mike Stevens <michael...@which.net> wrote:
Agreed that by the third time (which is as many times as I
recall, if you count Tiff repeating it as the second), it
wasn't funny; it was just "what Nanny Ogg's cottage is
called". By the same token, I didn't think, halfway through
Pyramids "He's not *still* using the Djellibeybi gag, is he?"
Arthur Hagen
Five separate occasions, not counting the first repeat by Tiffany.
(One of the joys of an ebook is that it's searchable).
Regards,
--
*Art
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Fair enough then, although the fact I didn't even notice two
of them is possibly my point 8-)...
Sabremeister Brian
Mike Stevens (michael...@which.net) spake thusly:
> One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in
> their
> postings).
>
>
> SPOILER SPACE
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
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> Page 188
> "The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
> "Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
> "It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
>
> Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in
> Irish
> mythology.
I knew it meant seomething, I knew I'd read that it meant something
before now!
--
www.sabremeister.me.uk
www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
"Cupid has a depressing tendency to use me for target practice"
- Me, sometime in 2002.
Sabremeister Brian
Ross (junk...@ross-mail.me.uk) spake thusly:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:01:46 +0200, Torak wrote in
> <5ea1e$451a4c19$d5594586$30...@news.chello.se>, seen in
> alt.fan.pratchett:
>
> [...]
>> It's only a matter of time before the Watch have modern black
>> combat
>> jackets and those little rows of black-and-white Battenburg... :-)
>
> And Sgt. Colon in a hi-vis traffic jacket...?
Sgt Colon is highly visible whether wearing flourescent yellow or not.
He's like Detritus and Carrot like that.
--
www.sabremeister.me.uk
www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
You know you've been off Usenet too long when you start saying things
like "as far as I can tell", instead of "ay-eff-ay-eye-see-tee".
- Me, April 2004
Len Oil
> Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
> Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
>
> SPOILER SPACE
For my poor few, having only read the book once, and without any
deliberate [A]-spotting. And the following has more comments on some
aspects than actual annotations, but keeping the [A]-tag upon while
there's still some. (Can anyone discussing my other observations, only,
remove it from the reply? Cheers.)
>
> I
> r
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>
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>
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>
> a
>
> n
> a
> i
> l
Not an [A], but I loved the scullery/skull reference (p.97, UK edition,
as will all future references be in this post). Not a pun that has
/ever/ occurred to me, and hence funny.
Also not an [A]nnotation, but I recall a children's story (televised?)
involving a weatherhouse, and part of the plot being about the
summer-woman and the rain man never being in (or out) of the house at
the same time. Just a datum point. (Page reference not found, sorry.
Second time round maybe.)
Ouch. I know that "apologize" (e.g. p 236, 2nd para) is a legitimate
English English version of "apologise", but that (and a couple of other
versions) got me.
p355: "Who could live in a place like this?" Well, it /could/ be too
obvious to be an [A] or not intended at all, but the _Through The
Keyhole_ reference leapt out at me.
p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.
Compare pages 28 and 335. Did the young Tiffany wear /only/ a vest, or
/not/ a vest (but otherwise decent)?
Horace's name. Daft Wullie didn't need to be told (p.332). They were
all told (p.65).
Finally (for now)... Tiffany was dealing with the wintersmith. Roland
was dealing with the Summer Woman. What would have happened had only
one or the other been successful? Was Tiffany only successful in her
endeavour because Roland was? Or vice-versa?
#####
And here's a comment on one of the original comments....
> p384
> "She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of Annagramma."
> When it looked like Tiffany was going to get a cottage she
> didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her trying to take it
> from her, because that's what *she'd* have done. The Summer
> Lady's reaction to Tiffany "stealing" her role is indeed
> pretty much the same.
Also, she called Tiffany "sheep-witch", compared with Annagramma
derisively calling Petulia "pig-witch". Similar psychological mirroring.
(Worst thing is that a lot of the points I was going to make, even /had/
made, are discussed elsewhere. e.g. the "two winters, two summers" one.
So I've had to cut down several of the points /and/
personally-discovered annotations, rendering this entire post stripped
to the bone, and rather less interesting bones.)
((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
have accidentally turned off.))
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: Len Oil <len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk>
That rings a bell for me too.
> Compare pages 28 and 335. Did the young Tiffany wear
> /only/ a vest, or /not/ a vest (but otherwise decent)?
Based on my own experience of two year olds, I'm quite
prepared to believe both on different occasions. Also "without
her vest" in this context probably means "in just her pants".
> Horace's name. Daft Wullie didn't need to be told (p.332).
> They were all told (p.65).
Not *specifically* though. Mrs Treason was basically thinking
aloud, and the Feegles weren't following much of it. A vague
mention of "could she mean Horace?" wrt "a cheese that walks
like a man" is not evidence that the cheese they eventually
find is called Horace. But Daft Wullie knows.
(Now *there's* a question the Mary Sue test hasn't thought of.
Psychic communication with animals, yes, but not cheeses.)
<snip>
> And here's a comment on one of the original comments....
>
> > p384
> > "She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of
> > Annagramma." When it looked like Tiffany was going to get
> > a cottage she didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her
> > trying to take it from her, because that's what *she'd*
> > have done. The Summer Lady's reaction to Tiffany
> > "stealing" her role is indeed pretty much the same.
>
> Also, she called Tiffany "sheep-witch", compared with
> Annagramma derisively calling Petulia "pig-witch". Similar
> psychological mirroring.
Ooh, good catch.
Joe Bednorz
>Also not an [A]nnotation, but I recall a children's story (televised?)
>involving a weatherhouse, and part of the plot being about the
>summer-woman and the rain man never being in (or out) of the house at
>the same time. Just a datum point. (Page reference not found, sorry.
>Second time round maybe.)
It was on Benny Hill. Well done, too. No dialog but a nice little
sing-song narration instead.
>
>((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
>message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
>vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
>Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
>have accidentally turned off.))
I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
something easy to implement, either.
Bugzilla shows this as "Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it"
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278>
It was opened on "2000-06-21 01:03 PDT".
Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different group.
Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
downloads after the first time as read.
This doesn't work all that well for non-spam crossposts. For afp and
abp sometimes you'll get the first download of a crossposted message in
afp, sometimes in abp.
I'm not sure there's a good solution, except for people not to
crosspost between the two groups. (And that's only relatively good, not
absolutely good.) Perhaps just read the thread in one group? That may
not be good at all, given how bad threading can get.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One
time the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the
joke and your head hits the next available wall while at another
bit you laugh at a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue
when you think about it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp
All the Best, Joe Bednorz
Arthur Hagen
> On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 23:42:31 +0100, Len Oil wrote:
>
>> ((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out
>> that a message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read
>> in AFP. Or vice-versa, depending on which group you first check.
>> OE did that Ok. Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I
>> haven't found yet, or have accidentally turned off.))
>
> I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem
> like something easy to implement, either.
Exceedingly easy to implement, due to there only being a single Message-ID
to mark read. You'll have to jump through hoops to <B>not</B> get this
functionality, by doing something silly like indexing on the server post
number for each group instead of Message-ID to save a few bytes - in which
case you're hosed whenever the news server does a renumber, and you waste
even more bytes by saving the same posts multiple times.
> Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
> more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
> to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different
> group.
>
> Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
> again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
> downloads after the first time as read.
News clients usually fetch messages in two different ways[1]: Either (a) by
asking for a full range based on a counter, in which case all posts (or
headers) are polled down and either saved or discarded after being received,
or (b) by asking the news server for the Message-IDs of all messages since a
certain date, and then asking for the wanted posts only.
The former works well if you want nearly all messages, as it has little
overhead, while the latter works much better if you either filter on
Message-ID or get a fair amount of crossposts, cause you won't download the
same message more than once.
In any case, downloading a post again seems a waste if you already have that
post somewhere else. Even if you purge one group, the Message-ID should be
considered in-use if it's in another present group, and only go away if you
purge all groups in which the post was made.
[1]: There's also some hybrid approaches, like always re-fetching the last
post header to see whether there's been a renumber, and if so, download by
date, otherwise by number range.
Regards,
--
*Art
Len Oil
>> ((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
>> message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
>> vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
>> Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
>> have accidentally turned off.))
>
> I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
> something easy to implement, either.
Well, the way I always assumed OE worked (when thinking about these
details in pie-in-the-sky plans for writing my own newsreader) was that
OE downloaded a complete version for each group (a place-holder in one
would cause problems when removing files from the system for the group
you had the only copy for). When a message status was changed to 'read'
in one of the groups, and other groups are mentioned in the headers, any
that you have a file for gets poked to change their status. It might
even work if you haven't (officially) downloaded the message body on the
second.third/whatever group if it's a flag applied to the header info.
Or it might even allow a pre-emptive "don't even bother with downloading
message <cpq1i2t9gaa26hte2...@4ax.com>, we have it and
we've read it" in advance of the header download (which would, of
course, still have to be downloaded to get that info, but saves problems
with synchronicity).
And if you went into group 2, and marked a message (marked read in group
1, and hence in group 2) as unread again, similar process to bring it
'back to life' in group 1. Of course, if it didn't bother to download
into the second group, you'd have to have a quick peek into the other
group 1's file (assuming you still had it on your system) if you tried
to read it again in group 2. That's where it starts to get more complex
... ;)
Well, anyway, that's not exactly a /summary/ of the process, but a
representation of how I thought it worked. It's basically a combination
of some of the options you gave below, but parsed through my mind (which
contains a natural-language anti-compressor, it seems).
[Gakh! I hope these headers worked, I tried to change default
Followup-To: to poster and get rid of ABP from the newsgroup list, but
it currently has two AFPs and a blank in the three Newsgroup: fields now
showing. Hope that doesn't break anything, but I can't seem to delete
headers I've accidentally created.]
> Bugzilla shows this as "Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it"
>
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278>
>
> It was opened on "2000-06-21 01:03 PDT".
I'll have a look, at some point, but I'm a bit wary about jumping into
an established software development.
> This doesn't work all that well for non-spam crossposts. For afp and
> abp sometimes you'll get the first download of a crossposted message in
> afp, sometimes in abp.
Well, I'm reading the original thread (and all others) that this spawned
from in ABP then AFP, that order. I've read the entire thread in ABP (I
think they were all ABP+AFP cross-posted, but could have had ABP-onlies
as well) then when I read AFP I passed over anything with ABP+AFP in
headers to read the remaining just-AFP ones. This would cause problems
if somehow a both-groups message didn't find its way into ABP, or only
AFP at first and (miraculously) marked the ABP one as read, but the
risks of both are minor, for the time being.
Did you understand that? Probably not.
> I'm not sure there's a good solution, except for people not to
> crosspost between the two groups. (And that's only relatively good, not
> absolutely good.) Perhaps just read the thread in one group? That may
> not be good at all, given how bad threading can get.
Cross-posting is good. Or better than individual posting to each,
anyway. I think well-programmed NNTP-servers deal with them once-only,
saving internet bandwidth, though NNTP-clients that don't deal with them
as one case on download (/but/ may then mark them as read across all
groups, or not) do require greater download than necessary. But compare
with spams (usually, but not always) sent individually to multiple groups.
But I'm rambling again.
Alec Cawley
>
>> ((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
>> message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
>> vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
>> Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
>> have accidentally turned off.))
>
> I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
> something easy to implement, either.
>
> Bugzilla shows this as "Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it"
>
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278>
>
> It was opened on "2000-06-21 01:03 PDT".
>
>
>
> Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
> more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
> to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different group.
>
> Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
> again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
> downloads after the first time as read.
>
> This doesn't work all that well for non-spam crossposts. For afp and
> abp sometimes you'll get the first download of a crossposted message in
> afp, sometimes in abp.
>
> I'm not sure there's a good solution, except for people not to
> crosspost between the two groups. (And that's only relatively good, not
> absolutely good.) Perhaps just read the thread in one group? That may
> not be good at all, given how bad threading can get.
Turnpike marks a post as read in all groups at first reading in any
group. In practice it works well for me because I tend to read NGs in
the same order, so a cross-posted thread appears to inhabit the first
group I encounter it in. Provided people don/t change the crossposts, it
"disappears" from the second group. And if people change crossposts
because validity has changed, the same thing happens. I am dropping abp
from this because it is no longer about Wintersmith.
Paul Cooke
>>((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
>>message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
>>vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
>>Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
>>have accidentally turned off.))
>
> I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
> something easy to implement, either.
>
Knode... but then again, I'm not using windows... so I have a far greater
choice... :)
--
XP, unsafe on the information highway at any speed
Michael J. Schülke
> Joe Bednorz wrote:
>
> >>((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
> >>message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
> >>vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
> >>Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
> >>have accidentally turned off.))
> >
> > I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
> > something easy to implement, either.
Gravity can do it -- and it shouldn't be too difficult, since the
message ID is the same.
> Knode... but then again, I'm not using windows... so I have a far greater
> choice... :)
Technically speaking, I'm not quite sure about that -- shouldn't it be
possible to get most if not all UNIX apps to run under windows with a
compatibility layer like CygWin?
Michael
Skimble
> Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
> Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
>
> SPOILER SPACE
>
> I
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Hello, everyone!
I'm not sure if it was previously mentioned in the earlier Aching books
and it has only now pricked my attention due to the Nac Mac Feegle
glossary in "Wintersmith", but it seems that Terry has finally provided a
cast-iron use for a Spog! (p. 12)
As a good friend and current housemate of the original [1] Spog I feel I
must ask whether this was an intentional nod to the AFP Spog, or whether
this was a coincidence, and the idea was to form a word similar to
'Sporran'.
I pointed it out to Spog and I think he was quite pleased that his name
still lives on in association with the Discworld, even if it is nothing
more than a coincidence.
- Richard Bellingham
[1] And infamous! Who still remembers his reign of terror in the
mid-1990's?
ansh
Mike Stevens wrote:
> One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
> postings).
>
>
> SPOILER SPACE
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
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>
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>
> Page 188
> "The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
> "Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
> "It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
>
> Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
> mythology.
I thought it referred to the palace of the fae/sidhe Queen in celtic
mythology which would be cool because of the Fairy Queen trying to take
over in Lords and Ladies. (Of course I could be wrong since I'm not
too sure about this or it could be both...)
> I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best puns (IMO) that Terry
> has come up with.
Me too!! It was hilarious. I read it out to my roommate last night as
soon as I came across it and she thought I was a bit cracked...but
that's okay... :-)
> --
> Mike Stevens
Also, does anyone remember it coming up in previous books because its
been a while since I read the "grown-up" witches books.
~ansh
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: "ansh" <anatwo...@gmail.com>
I think it's both. Originally the Sidhe were the Tuatha De
Dannan (the People of the Goddess) who departed to the
Otherworld of Tír na nÓg when the Gaels showed up[1], and were
sometimes equated with the Celtic gods. I could well believe
that their home dimension was also the Celtic version of the
Elysian Fields[2][3].
[1]And they weren't aboriginal either, having displaced the
Fir Bolg.
[2]Hmm, compare the beliefs of the Nac Mac Feegle. Although
they seem to view the Land of thr
[3]If I could find my Celtic Civ. sourcebooks I could go on
about this stuff at greater length.
john1_a...@hotmail.com
Len Oil wrote:
> > SPOILER SPACE
> >
> > I
> > r
> > o
> > n
> >
> > e
> > n
> > o
> > u
> > g
> > h
> >
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> > a
> > i
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>
>
> p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
> sleep, so who was it for?
> She knew the answer already: me."
> Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
> neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
> idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.
>
Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?
Cheers,
John
Cindy Hamilton
I don't think so. I think the Wintersmith is clueless on the
importance of
kitchens, beds, and (for that matter) privies. He built the palace for
Tiffany,
but he didn't build it correctly, because he fundamentally doesn't
understand what it is to be human.
Weren't there some features like that in Death's domain (early on)?
Furnishings
that looked like their real-world counterparts, but were
non-functional.
Cindy Hamilton
Torak
"...and Death did not seem to have realised that towels were meant to be
soft" or something, isn't it?
We summon the Memory-Meister, the Quotefinder General, the one, the only
Daibh!
Daibhid Ceanaideach
speaker: Torak <perr...@hotmail.com>
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
(No spoilers left)
>> Weren't there some features like that in Death's domain
>> (early on)? Furnishings
>> that looked like their real-world counterparts, but were
>> non-functional.
>
> "...and Death did not seem to have realised that towels
> were meant to be soft" or something, isn't it?
>
> We summon the Memory-Meister, the Quotefinder General, the
> one, the only Daibh!
LOL. Yeah, in SM Death's bathroom has hard black towels and
unusable bone-white soap, and also a ragged YMPA towel and a
thin bar of carbolic, both provided by Albert.
Cliff
"Torak" <perr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e505$4524361f$d5594586$63...@news.chello.se...
[snip good stuff. google for it if you missed it]
>
> "...and Death did not seem to have realised that towels
> were meant to be soft" or something, isn't it?
>
Or bend. Nobby Nobbs realises (_Jingo_, I think)
handkerchiefs (and I assume towels, if he ever uses one)
should at least bend. He is human. He has papers to prove
it.
Mike Stevens
My reaction was to compare it with many things in Death's Domain which have
the appearance of everyday items but were created with no understanding of
what they were about. Wintersmith had designed the palace for Tiffany
without any understanding of what a real person (as opposed to an
anthropomorphic personification would need, possibly because he wasn't at
that time distunguiching between Tiffany and Summer.
Richard Bos
> Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
> Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
>
> SPOILER SPACE
>
> I
> r
> o
> n
>
> e
> n
> o
> u
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> t
> o
>
> m
> a
> k
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>
> a
>
> n
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> i
> l
>
> First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
> shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact, and
> have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other through
> the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry someone at
> the publishers out of it being a children's book?
>
> Back cover:
> A Vetruvian Snowman, presumably symbolising the Wintersmith's
> "Making of a Man".
But, oddly enough, with Roundworld astrological symbols around it. One
would have expected a stylised Celestial Parsnip, Knotted String, or
Small Boring Group of Faint Stars.
> p218
> "'The Summer Lady doesn't walk above the ground in winter'"
> Sort of Persephone, although technically it's Persephone's mum
> who's the Summer Lady, and she just goes on strike until her
> daughter comes back.
Although in some versions of that myth, it's the hot, dry summer when
Demeter goes into hiding.
> p349
> "She reached down and pulled out, covered in slime and scales,
> but recognisably itself, the silver horse."
> Famous myth, associated with (amongst others) St Mungo of
> Glasgow. Nanny Ogg refers to it in Wyrd Sisters.
There's also a Dutch version, but the lady in that version does not end
well.
> p368
> "'One verrae big dog wi' three heads.'"
> Cerebus
Cerberus.
p284
"Blind Io created the Cornucopia from a horn of the magical goat Almeg
to feed his two childern by the Goddess Bisonomy..."
In Greek myth, Amaltheia was (a nymph metamorphosed into) the goat who
suckled Zeus, not his sons, when he was hiding from his father as an
infant, on Crete. Later, Zeus created the Cornucopia from a horn of
Amaltheia.
The rest of the sentence, including the name Bisonomy, parodies the
typical muddle of minor Greek myths, but not AFAICT any specific one.
BTW: Bisonomy? Any relation to certain forbidden practices by I-forget-
which god?
Richard