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[F] Are you Afphrid of the database?

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Aquarion

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Sep 21, 2001, 1:23:58 PM9/21/01
to
You should be.

Once upon a time there was an innocent student who passed a Database
course. As an exercise, he worked out how to create a database of
*all* the various AFPrelationships.

"You won't be able to do it!" they said

"You'll go mad trying!"

Oh well. They were right on the second one.

I've done it, but the next bit is up to you. In order for a
relationship to be in the system, both must be members of the Big Bad
Database.

The system is online at
<http://www.aquarionics.com/afphrid/index.php>, Go forth and sign up!
The system is complex enough to deal with many-to-many
relationships[1] (Under the heading "Cliques", sorry about that) and
fairly simple.

Suggestions, comments and crys of "ARGHHHHHH" to
nich...@aquarion.freeserve.co.uk (Aquarionics.com mail isn't working
ATM :-| ) or on this thread :)

So, Go <http://www.aquarionics.com/afphrid/index.php>, Now. Your life
may never be the same again.

Yours in total sincerity,

Aquarion D'Blue
--
"Ve belong dead"-- O | Aquarion. Ph33r |V|y 1337 P@|\|70 5K1||Z
\\\\\ +-|-+ | From is valid, Replyto is better.
\\\\\\\__o | |
___\\\\\\\x/___ _/ \_ | Resurrecting dead hedgehogs since 1996.

[1] Fnar Fnar[2]
[2] Do dooo de dodo

Lawrence Mitchell

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Sep 21, 2001, 3:33:06 PM9/21/01
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In <kftmqtgdrid11ieut...@4ax.com> Aquarion writes:
> Suggestions, comments and crys of "ARGHHHHHH" to
> nich...@aquarion.freeserve.co.uk (Aquarionics.com mail isn't working
> ATM :-| ) or on this thread :)

Dammit, it doesn't accept sendmail "+ comments" as valid email
addresses, thus, wence+afp@... is not allowed.

> So, Go <http://www.aquarionics.com/afphrid/index.php>, Now. Your life
> may never be the same again.

You're right there :-)

--
Lawrence Mitchell <wenc...@newald.homeip.net> | \\\\__. | Hedgehog?
<URL:http://wence.newald.homeip.net/> | \\\\'/ | It's a porcupine.

jester

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Sep 21, 2001, 3:46:20 PM9/21/01
to
On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:23:58 +0100, Aquarion
<use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote:
>
> I've done it, but the next bit is up to you. In order for a
> relationship to be in the system, both must be members of the Big Bad
> Database.

Both?
Who counts as both for T*mpl*s, heaps & queueueueues?

--
Andy Brown

Flesh-eating dragon

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Sep 21, 2001, 11:11:42 PM9/21/01
to
Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote:

> Once upon a time there was an innocent student who passed a Database
> course. As an exercise, he worked out how to create a database of
> *all* the various AFPrelationships.

I'm doing "Database Systems II" for the second time this year, which
involves the use of PL/SQL, Pro*C, and other Oracle bits. For fun, I
have invented my own syntax to replace SQL and PL/SQL; now I wish I'd
stayed awake in "Language Translators" last year.

Adrian.

Flesh-eating dragon

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Sep 22, 2001, 12:18:33 AM9/22/01
to
Aquarion wrote:

> Once upon a time there was an innocent student who passed a Database
> course. As an exercise, he worked out how to create a database of
> *all* the various AFPrelationships.

Questions:

(1) Standardisation of brother, afpbrother, AFPbrother, etc - do you
plan to handle this somehow? I can think of a few ways to do it.

(2) How to encode the following:

<repost extract_type=".sig", original_date="February 1998">

Official wall decoration in the dungeon just left of the chocolate
store and behind the whiskey store, in the vicinity of Gid's Harem.
Here and there I often like to preserve a few islands of sanity
within the vast sea of absurdity which is my mind.

</repost>

Adrian.

Aquarion

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Sep 22, 2001, 6:09:14 AM9/22/01
to
jester took 12 tacks to pin this to the wall of alt.fan.pratchett

Someone founds them, other people join them :-)

Supports both moderated and unmoderated cliq^Wgroups

Aquarion

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Sep 22, 2001, 6:09:14 AM9/22/01
to
Flesh-eating dragon took 26 tacks to pin this to the wall of
alt.fan.pratchett

If Gid's Harem gets created in the database, your "Position" within
the group would be "wall decoration in the dungeon just left of the


chocolate store and behind the whiskey store"

In the vacinity probably doesn't fit, on the basis that membership of
a group is binary. Unless you create a new group of people who are In
The Vacinity Of Gid's Harem.

Hmm. Subgroups...

Aquarion

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Sep 22, 2001, 2:06:27 PM9/22/01
to
Aquarion took 40 tacks to pin this to the wall of alt.fan.pratchett

Apologies for this, but upon reread this might need some extra
punctuation to make sense:

>>Official wall decoration in the dungeon just left of the chocolate
>>store and behind the whiskey store, in the vicinity of Gid's Harem.
>>Here and there I often like to preserve a few islands of sanity
>>within the vast sea of absurdity which is my mind.
>
>If Gid's Harem gets created in the database, your "Position" within
>the group would be "wall decoration in the dungeon just left of the
>chocolate store and behind the whiskey store"

(Corrected bit below)

"In the vicinity" probably doesn't fit in the system, on the basis


that membership of a group is binary. Unless you create a new group of

people who are "In The Vicinity Of Gid's Harem".

(end corrections)

Secondly, my ability to do the next bit is limited, not least because
I'm not quite sure how.
The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
it.

If anyone is interested in doing this I can send the tech-specs of the
data structures.

Ailbhe Leamy

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:39:45 AM9/25/01
to
Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote
(on Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:06:27 +0100):

> The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
> relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
> it.

Well-oiled spaghetti

Ailbhe

--
Ailbhe -- New to alt.fan.pratchett? http://www.lspace.org/fandom/afp/
AFP Code 1.1a: ALi-IE/UK d s--: a1978 UP++ R+@ F+ h- P-- OSU-:++ C++ M-
pp+ L+++ I*da W c- B- Cn98+ CC99+:00+ PT-- Pu54@ 5 X? MT e! rp+++ x+ end
Tech Support Pages: http://ailbhe.ossifrage.net/support/

Aquarion

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Sep 25, 2001, 2:28:58 PM9/25/01
to
Ailbhe Leamy took 15 tacks to pin this to the wall of
alt.fan.pratchett

>Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote
>(on Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:06:27 +0100):
>> The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
>> relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
>> it.
>
>Well-oiled spaghetti

..


...

.....


Ahem. Warning, tangent alert:

Once upon a time there was a dull little boy named Nick. Nick was a
librarian, and thus not a major feature in the great social structure
of the world he lived in. He had few friends, and was happiest when at
the bottom of the fiction section reading the books one by one.


Everybody say *AHHHH*


Oh, come on, it's sadder than that: *AHHHHHHHHHHHHH*


Better.

Anyhue, The dull little boy went though school, sailed though GCSEs,
failed A-Levels and came into the great wide and wonderful world of
the internet as an innocent little sysadmin[1], and the collective
might of AFP piled down on him. He posted once, was replied to by
pTerry, and then ran away, scared.
A couple of years later he came back. Still innocent, still young,
blonde, and annoying. He top-posted, and wasn't flamed, he had a 6
line sig, and wasn't flamed, he left, and nobody noticed.
He was still an innocent.

He came back a year later, less innocent care of other places, and
wiser in the ways of the world.

Another year later, and he now can't look at a phrase such as "Well
Oiled Spaghetti" without part of his brain putting it's hand over it's
mouth and giggling, whilst the rest of the mind gazes cooly upon it
and says "Yes? And? What's so funny?"

What have you people *done* to me?

Yours in total sincerity,

Aquarion D'Blue
--
"Ve belong dead"-- O | Aquarion. Ph33r |V|y 1337 P@|\|70 5K1||Z
\\\\\ +-|-+ | From is valid, Replyto is better.
\\\\\\\__o | |
___\\\\\\\x/___ _/ \_ | Resurrecting dead hedgehogs since 1996.

[1] I've been admining computers on school networks since I was 13.
This occasionally scares me, but I bet someone here can beat it. No
DSW, please

Sandriana

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Sep 26, 2001, 2:15:54 PM9/26/01
to
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:28:58 +0100, Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com>
wrote:


>


>What have you people *done* to me?

Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....

Rosemary Warner

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Sep 26, 2001, 2:54:05 PM9/26/01
to
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:28:58 +0100, Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com>
wrote:


>


>Another year later, and he now can't look at a phrase such as "Well
>Oiled Spaghetti" without part of his brain putting it's hand over it's

^^^^ ^^^


>mouth and giggling, whilst the rest of the mind gazes cooly upon it
>and says "Yes? And? What's so funny?"
>
>What have you people *done* to me?
>

This sort of thing, usually:

Possesive its HAS NO APOSTROPHE!

sorry. You can even call me Posie for that.....

Rosemary

Rosemary, who is definitely not called Posie.
In any circumstances.
*glink* *viola*
http://www.bingeley-beep.fsnet.co.uk

MegaMole

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Sep 26, 2001, 3:45:17 PM9/26/01
to
In article <3bb22362...@news.freeserve.net>, Rosemary Warner
<darth_...@microsith.com> writes

>
>Possesive its HAS NO APOSTROPHE!
But possessive has 2 Ss[1], unless you're following the Golden Rule of
Spelling Peder^H^Hantry.

[1] Well, four. So what? You know the 2 I meant...
--
MegaMole, the Official Enrico Basilica
\\\\\ laaa! mo...@lspace.org mo...@music.slut.org.uk
\\\\\\\_o / www.countertenor.demon.co.uk for Stuff
__ \\\\\'c/__ Hitting the high notes with hedgehogs since 2001

Rosemary Warner

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Sep 27, 2001, 4:47:23 PM9/27/01
to
On Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:45:17 +0100, MegaMole <Mega...@lspace.org>
wrote:

>In article <3bb22362...@news.freeserve.net>, Rosemary Warner
><darth_...@microsith.com> writes
>>
>>Possesive its HAS NO APOSTROPHE!
>But possessive has 2 Ss[1], unless you're following the Golden Rule of
>Spelling Peder^H^Hantry.
>

Oh *fsck*.
The Golden Rule of Posting....
Always check what you have posted, especially if it will cause
embarrassment
I hereby subject myself to being called Posie even more oftn.


Rosemary
Rosemary, who is definitely not called Posie.

*glink* *viola*
http://www.bingeley-beep.fsnet.co.uk

Chris Ahchay

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Sep 28, 2001, 8:58:36 AM9/28/01
to
Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote in message news:<d9bpqt0ep1tatr5ls...@4ax.com>...

> >
> >If Gid's Harem gets created in the database, your "Position" within
> >the group would be "wall decoration in the dungeon just left of the
> >chocolate store and behind the whiskey store"
>
> (Corrected bit below)
>
> "In the vicinity" probably doesn't fit in the system, on the basis
> that membership of a group is binary. Unless you create a new group of
> people who are "In The Vicinity Of Gid's Harem".
>
> (end corrections)

You *could* define a series of entities as locations, which would
help with this kind of thing. Gid's Harem would then be defined as
a location, with relationships to *other* locations allowing you
to determine proximity. An extension to the main Afp'er entity
would then allow you to define peoples positions relative to locations.

Alternatively, you could derive membership of Gid's harem from a
relationship to Gid. Harem membership would be inferred from any
engagement/marriage/whatever to Gid. People who are "in the vincinity
of" this relationship would be first generation relationships to
the harem.

>
> Secondly, my ability to do the next bit is limited, not least because
> I'm not quite sure how.
> The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
> relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
> it.

You *need* to get something like this in before the database becomes
useful - people will want to ask "what is x's relationship to y".

You can't do this in native sql (or at least you could, but only to a
fixed depth) but you could code it (php will deal with this really
well). You'll need to get into recursion[1] to do this effectively, but
if you recurse each of x's relationships (either to a fixed depth or
infinitely[2]). Discard all branches that do not contain y and you
are left with the relationships between x and y.

Unfortunately, these will be something along the lines of;

x is b's brother who is y's mother[3]

Your problem now is to define relationships as combinations of other
relationships. A few simple examples:

Grandparent=Parent of parent
Uncle=Brother of Parent
Cousin=Child of Sibling of Parent

You will need to gather _more_ information to make this work. Gender
would need to be known[4] although this can be derived from some
relationships.

>
> If anyone is interested in doing this I can send the tech-specs of the
> data structures.

Give it a go, databases like this are *fun*[5]

Love
Chris
[1][1]
[2]Be careful doing this, your database _will_ have cyclic relationships
in it. You'll need to carry a record of nodes previously traversed and
avoid processing them twice.
[3]Thought i'd leave you with a simple one for starters. Knowing afp this
relationship would _never_ be this simple...
[4]Is there a gender neutral form of uncle or aunt?
[5]I've always called them pigs ears myself. Try and draw one and you'll
see what I mean.

Orjan

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Sep 28, 2001, 9:31:29 AM9/28/01
to
Chris Ahchay <ch...@arcadenirvana.com> wrote in message
news:ea8423cf.01092...@posting.google.com...

> You can't do this in native sql (or at least you could, but only to a
> fixed depth) but you could code it (php will deal with this really
> well). You'll need to get into recursion[1] to do this effectively, but
> if you recurse each of x's relationships (either to a fixed depth or
> infinitely[2]). Discard all branches that do not contain y and you
> are left with the relationships between x and y.
>
> Unfortunately, these will be something along the lines of;
>
> x is b's brother who is y's mother[3]
>
> Your problem now is to define relationships as combinations of other
> relationships. A few simple examples:
>
> Grandparent=Parent of parent
> Uncle=Brother of Parent
> Cousin=Child of Sibling of Parent
>
> You will need to gather _more_ information to make this work. Gender
> would need to be known[4] although this can be derived from some
> relationships.

Rules, relationships, recursiveness... Am I the only sad git wondering what
happened with all those Prolog databases that were so hot in the late
eighties? I can't think of a better tool to create this kind of structure.

[1-4] NMF

Orjan


Ingvar Mattsson

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Sep 28, 2001, 10:43:13 AM9/28/01
to
"Orjan" <spamtraprepl...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk> writes:

[SNIP]


> Rules, relationships, recursiveness... Am I the only sad git wondering what
> happened with all those Prolog databases that were so hot in the late
> eighties? I can't think of a better tool to create this kind of structure.

I can! I can! But, then, I must admit to have somewhat of a storage
fetish, what with implementing my own object-oriented persistent
back-end to CLOS.

//Ingvar (sick puppy)
--
"Validate me! Give me eternal digital life! Quote me in your .sigs!"
djc, in the Monastery

Melody S-K

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Sep 28, 2001, 11:35:39 AM9/28/01
to

Ingvar Mattsson <ing...@cathouse.bofh.se> wrote in message
news:87k7yjz...@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net...

Snippage

But, then, I must admit to have somewhat of a storage
> fetish, what with implementing my own object-oriented persistent
> back-end to CLOS.

Is that legal?


;o)

Melody


--
Hey, if you cut off your foot, you wouldn't keep putting it
in your mouth, but your body wouldn't be the same, would it?


Peter Ellis

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Sep 28, 2001, 12:05:12 PM9/28/01
to
On 28 Sep 2001, Chris Ahchay wrote:
>Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote in message news:<d9bpqt0ep1tatr5ls...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
>> relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
>> it.
>
>You *need* to get something like this in before the database becomes
>useful - people will want to ask "what is x's relationship to y".
>

This breaks at the very first step.

Consider the following case:

x is y's sister
y is z's mother
x is z's son

I think I could very simply find you such a triumvirate.

Consider also the following:

x is y's afpfiance
x is y's brother
x is y's son
x is y's father


I can *certainly* name one of these cases, because I am x. We also have
at a number of gender-role-breaching situations, where a may be b's
brother, c's agony aunt, and alter ego to (female) d

By recursion, it's fairly simple to prove from this that everyone is every
possible male and female relative to everyone else.

The final nail in the coffin comes when you apply the following logic:

a is afpmarried to b
b is afpmarried to c

b is an afper of impeccable moral standing and would never commit the sin
of bigamy

Therefore, a is c


We've been through this one before, about six months ago. And six months
before that. And nine months before that. And three months before that.
And...


> [2]Be careful doing this, your database _will_ have cyclic relationships
> in it.

Not only cyclic, but also impossible and/or self-contradictory
relationships.

Peter

Aquarion

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Sep 28, 2001, 9:25:11 AM9/28/01
to
Rosemary Warner took 19 tacks to pin this to the wall of
alt.fan.pratchett

>On Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:45:17 +0100, MegaMole <Mega...@lspace.org>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3bb22362...@news.freeserve.net>, Rosemary Warner
>><darth_...@microsith.com> writes
>>>
>>>Possesive its HAS NO APOSTROPHE!
>>But possessive has 2 Ss[1], unless you're following the Golden Rule of
>>Spelling Peder^H^Hantry.
>>
>Oh *fsck*.
>The Golden Rule of Posting....
>Always check what you have posted, especially if it will cause
>embarrassment
>I hereby subject myself to being called Posie even more oftn.

Oooh, *evil grin*

Chris Ahchay

unread,
Sep 28, 2001, 2:43:02 PM9/28/01
to
"Orjan" <spamtraprepl...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<9p1ue2$eus6r$1...@ID-90122.news.dfncis.de>...

> Chris Ahchay <ch...@arcadenirvana.com> wrote in message
> news:ea8423cf.01092...@posting.google.com...
>

> Rules, relationships, recursiveness... Am I the only sad git wondering what


> happened with all those Prolog databases that were so hot in the late
> eighties? I can't think of a better tool to create this kind of structure.

Not the *only* sad git no...

You're right, prolog would be the perfect tool for this
kind of thing. In fact I seem to remember this exact
same problem[1] being one of the examples of how great
prolog was in some tutorial or other that i wandered
through a while ago.

However, the rest of the world has gone all relational
on us so we're obliged to go through all these hoops to
make this kind of structure[3] work.

Love
Chris

[1]Only with real families, which are less inclined to
be recursive than afp ones[2]
[2]Insert obligatory references to norfolk/alabama/region
of your choice here...
[3]Loosely defined as "things which consist of other things"

Eric Jarvis

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Sep 28, 2001, 5:25:35 PM9/28/01
to
Melody S-K wrote:
>
> Ingvar Mattsson <ing...@cathouse.bofh.se> wrote in message
> news:87k7yjz...@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net...
>
> Snippage
>
> But, then, I must admit to have somewhat of a storage
> > fetish, what with implementing my own object-oriented persistent
> > back-end to CLOS.
>
> Is that legal?
>
> ;o)
>

yes...but admitting to it on Usenet breaks a number of newsgroup
charters and even a couple of RFCs

--
eric - afprelationships in headers
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

Aquarion

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Sep 28, 2001, 8:11:55 PM9/28/01
to
Peter Ellis took 60 tacks to pin this to the wall of alt.fan.pratchett

>On 28 Sep 2001, Chris Ahchay wrote:
>>Aquarion <use...@Aquarionics.com> wrote in message news:<d9bpqt0ep1tatr5ls...@4ax.com>...
>>>
>>> The obvious expansion to the system is a spider-diagram of all
>>> relationships relevant to each other, but I'm not quite sure how to do
>>> it.
>>
>>You *need* to get something like this in before the database becomes
>>useful - people will want to ask "what is x's relationship to y".
>>

That's why it is as it is. The database, or any program, cannot
*understand* afprelationships, because they are not bound by any rules
*AT ALL*.

>We've been through this one before, about six months ago. And six months
>before that. And nine months before that. And three months before that.
>And...

Karen? How long did you tell me it would take to turn into a vampire
thread?

>> [2]Be careful doing this, your database _will_ have cyclic relationships
>> in it.
>
>Not only cyclic, but also impossible and/or self-contradictory
>relationships.

Which is why I don't.

Thanks to some evil bastard reminding me of set theory, Version 2 is
underway (And the tools to convert from one to the other, natch. I'm
*not* starting all this again), but the data is stored thus:

(Little bits of SQL & mySQL knowledge required for this bit:
tinytext is text less than 255 chars.
Not Null means it can't be blank
The hashes afterwards are comments for your sanity.


id int auto_increment, # Increases by one for each
new record
person_one tinytext not null, # eg, "Aquarion"
person_two tinytext not null, # eg, "Lonecat"
rel_onetwo tinytext not null, # eg, "God"
rel_twoone tinytext not null, # eg, "Worshipper"
status int, # eg, 1
primary key (id) # (The one thing in the record that has to be
unique)

That example parses as:
Aquarion is Lonecat's God, and Lonecat is Aquarion's Worshipper.

Yes, PHP *will* do it, but I don't know the logical process for it
doing so. Education will be appreciated.

rachel walmsley

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Sep 29, 2001, 8:15:30 AM9/29/01
to
Peter Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:

> By recursion, it's fairly simple to prove from this that everyone is every
> possible male and female relative to everyone else.

"I'm Aquarion, and so is my wife"

rw

Eric Jarvis

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Sep 29, 2001, 12:28:19 PM9/29/01
to
Peter Ellis wrote:
>
> By recursion, it's fairly simple to prove from this that everyone is every
> possible male and female relative to everyone else.
>

which is surely going to eventually be the situation if projected
infinitely

Aquarion

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Sep 29, 2001, 7:18:16 PM9/29/01
to
rachel walmsley took 8 tacks to pin this to the wall of
alt.fan.pratchett

*shudder*

Send in the clones?

YiTS, Aq
--

\
\\ (One liners for the baby hedgehogs since 2001)

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