Discworld Companion
Victoria Martin
Uurgh, I went and looked at the Discworld companion in a bookshop the
other day and was DISAPPOINTED and DEPRESSED. Faced with the choice of
what to look up, I flicked to Lord vetinari's entry first, and there was
a totally unsubstantiated claim about rumours that he used to be a member of
the
Assassin's Guild. Surely that wasn't Pterry's suggestion? I can't believe
he shares this adolescent belief that anyone who is cool and wears black
must be an assassin (and we're specifically tolfd that Vetinari's black
isn't like the assassins' black, it's much shabbier). It seems to
diminish his uniqueness if you start aligning him with the assassins. And
there's no mention in any of the novels that people think he might once
have been an assassin.
This depressed me, so Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling
Patrician throughout the series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me
because it is inaccurate (the Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and
lots of rings and therefore is clearly not Vetinari, who first appears in
S). If the Companion can be wrong about this, it can be wrong about
connections with the Assassins' Guild. still, it was disappointing to
find two slip-ups in the first two entries I looked at. Has anyone
spotted any other inaccuracies?
Victoria
James Brokaw
> Uurgh, I went and looked at the Discworld companion in a bookshop the
> other day and was DISAPPOINTED and DEPRESSED. Faced with the choice of
> what to look up, I flicked to Lord vetinari's entry first, and there was
> a totally unsubstantiated claim about rumours that he used to be a member of
> the
> Assassin's Guild. Surely that wasn't Pterry's suggestion? I can't believe
Have your read Pyramids? Or even looked up the Assassin's Guild in the
Companion? The Assassins Guild is not only where you send your kid to
learn to kill other people, its where you send your kid to get a
well-rounded high-class education. In all of the disc, it gives the most
practical, political education - the best education possible for a
patrician, with the advantage of the little assassiny bits, too.
> there's no mention in any of the novels that people think he might once
> have been an assassin.
Not _mentioned_, maybe, but hinted. How many other people can hear the
head of the Assassins Guild sneaking up on them?
> This depressed me, so Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling
> Patrician throughout the series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me
> because it is inaccurate (the Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and
> lots of rings and therefore is clearly not Vetinari, who first appears in
> S). If the Companion can be wrong about this, it can be wrong about
(1) Slim-Fast Diets.
(2) Why are you so quick to mark TCOM as "true" and DC as "inaccurate?"
TCOM, while a darn good book, was the first. Many of PTerry's ideas
weren't solidified yet, and if you read it, you will find a world of
contradictions. I'm suprised you haven't mentioned the fact that in TCOM
Death kills a mayfly out of aggravation.
> connections with the Assassins' Guild. still, it was disappointing to
> find two slip-ups in the first two entries I looked at. Has anyone
> spotted any other inaccuracies?
Hm. I failed to find anything wrong with the first two, myself.
--
\\\\\ ----> hedg...@photobooks.com <----
\\\\\\\__o Bringing hedgehogs to the common folk since 1994.
__\\\\\\\'/________________________________________________________
Leo Breebaart
> Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling Patrician throughout the
> series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me because it is inaccurate (the
> Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and lots of rings and therefore is
> clearly not Vetinari,
Indeed.
> who first appears in S).
Well, that's not exactly true. Terry himself has implied in an earlier
a.f.p. discussion that the Patrician in Mort is already Vetinari.
Here's the relevant annotation for TCOM, taken from the as yet unpublished
(but Soon, Real Soon Now) Annotated Pratchett File v7a.0:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ [p. 33] "The Patrician of Ankh-Morpork smiled, but with his mouth
only."
An interesting consideration is when Lord Vetinari became Patrician.
Clearly this isn't him (Vetinari eating crystallised jellyfish? -- I
don't think so. Besides, _Interesting Times_ makes it quite clear that
Vetinari does not know who Rincewind is). By the time _Mort_ takes place,
however, Vetinari had probably already risen to power. When some people
on alt.fan.pratchett questioned whether Vetinari would really be the type
of man throw the kind of party described in _Mort_, Terry answered:
"I've always thought the Patrician is a party animal. Can you imagine
waking up next day and remembering all those witty things you said and
did, and then realising that he was listening?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Leo Breebaart (l...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl)
Ben of Bens
forget it's also Ankh-Morpork's Eton (no doubt this helps resolve the
tricky problem of finding occupations for younger scions of aristocratic
families). We may assume he's let his couture lapse for several reasons
a) He's too busy to kill people personally - so there's
no insult
b) He's an old bachelor with a small white dog - not a good
mix for perfect black tailoring.
Despite this, I wouldn't challenge him to a knife throwing competition
and I challenge you to supply a character that would.
In some comments on the timeline (which I cleverly failed to keep) I
noted the rings and jowls of TCOM's Patrician but assumed him to be
Vetinari as the same Patrician is still installed in M. I prefer your
idea that V took over in S but limited as my London DW library is cannot
say yea or nay for sure - anybody help ?
Feel any better now ?
Ben
Victoria Martin
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Ben of Bens wrote:
of Vetinari> b) He's an old bachelor with a small white dog - not a good
> mix for perfect black tailoring.
Old??? How old??? It's possible for him to be quite young. Like you, I
don't have access to the Timeline, but Mort seems to me to be quite
free-floeating chronology wise. if he was, say 22, when hebecame
patrician (my Chrsitmas wish to Pterry - tell us *that* story) - and he's
a man of many talents, he could manage it - then he's be 32 in Mort and
Sorcery needn't take place *after* Mort, need it?
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On 16 Apr 1996, Leo Breebaart wrote:
> Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>
>
Vetinari ...> > who first appears in S).
>
> Well, that's not exactly true. Terry himself has implied in an earlier
> a.f.p. discussion that the Patrician in Mort is already Vetinari.
>
Oops, got my timelines wrong. I had always assumed the Patrician in Mort
was Vetinari, and given that the party is to celebrate the tenth year of
his accession to the 'throne' I'd used it to try to work out *very*
roughly how old he might be.
> Here's the relevant annotation for TCOM, taken from the as yet unpublished
> (but Soon, Real Soon Now) Annotated Pratchett File v7a.0:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> + [p. 33] "The Patrician of Ankh-Morpork smiled, but with his mouth
> only."
>
> An interesting consideration is when Lord Vetinari became Patrician.
> Clearly this isn't him (Vetinari eating crystallised jellyfish? -- I
> don't think so. Besides, _Interesting Times_ makes it quite clear that
> Vetinari does not know who Rincewind is). By the time _Mort_ takes place,
> however, Vetinari had probably already risen to power. When some people
> on alt.fan.pratchett questioned whether Vetinari would really be the type
> of man throw the kind of party described in _Mort_, Terry answered:
>
> "I've always thought the Patrician is a party animal. Can you imagine
> waking up next day and remembering all those witty things you said and
> did, and then realising that he was listening?"
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Leo Breebaart (l...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl)
>
>
This is a great annotation! (I can't access these files because I have an
extremely limited connection to the internet). the thought of remebering
being drunk in front of the Patrician sends shivers down my spine. It
reminds me of the time I went to a garden party at Trinity college in
cambridge, after having been drinking too much at another one first, and was
told the next
day that i had said to theProfessor of mathematics (whilst absolutely
stuffing my face with cheese straws) 'How can you devote your life to
such a boring subject? I failed o-level maths'. I still wake up in cold
sweats thinking about it (you have to realise the party was for people
who'd been going teaching for the College; luckily I got a proper job
soon after and never had to go back). Imagine having said something like
that to vetinari.
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Ben of Bens wrote:
> There's nothing inconsistent in Vetinari having been an assassin - don't
> forget it's also Ankh-Morpork's Eton (no doubt this helps resolve the
> tricky problem of finding occupations for younger scions of aristocratic
> families). We may assume he's let his couture lapse for several reasons
> a) He's too busy to kill people personally - so there's
> no insult
> Despite this, I wouldn't challenge him to a knife throwing competition
> and I challenge you to supply a character that would.
>
I've had another thought. What about in G!G! where Worm threatens him
with a sword ('You think you're so clever, so *swave*, just because I've
got a sword and you haven't!'). It's Vimes who saves Vetinari's life by
parrying the blow with Carrot's sword. Vetinari himself makes no attempt
to chuck a slim-bladed, cunningly concealed knife at Worm. he would have
*died* if Vimes hadn't intervened. Which is one of the things i really
like about the character - his skills are so totally different from the
usual run-of-the-mill hero. No, I don't think he *would* win a
knife-throwing competition. He never carries a weapon openly and I like
to think he carries no secret weapons either. his weapons are his brain
and his tongue (re. the dragon - 'If it can talk, it can negotiate. If it
can negotiate, I've got it by the - whatever dragons' have'). Giving him
the back-up of an amzing skill with throwing knives just weakens those
achievements and diminsihes his uniqueness. I reckon he'd be crap in
mortal combat. Just as ankh-Morpork wins battles by cheating and prefers
top sell arms to the enemy, so the patrician would always have to talk or
think his way out of a tight spot, but not *fight*.
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On 16 Apr 1996, James Brokaw wrote:
>
> > This depressed me, so Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling
> > Patrician throughout the series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me
> > because it is inaccurate (the Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and
> > lots of rings and therefore is clearly not Vetinari
>
> (1) Slim-Fast Diets.
This still doesn't explain the rings. Nor, as leo pointed out, the
fondness for crystallised jellyfish ('whilst other lords dined on larks'
tongues, vetinari considered a piece of bread and a glass of boiled water
an elegant sufficiency'). It's easier to posit two Patricians than a
total, overwhelming character change.
And, as leo said, in IT Vetinari doesn't know who Rincewind is. neither
does Ridcully. Only the characters who emerged early in the series
remember him.
> (2) Why are you so quick to mark TCOM as "true" and DC as "inaccurate?"
Because the Companion is supposed to be a Companion *to* the books. the
books are not written to exemplify the ideas stated in the Companion; the
Companion is written as a guide to the books.>
And as for your point about Death, Death *does* develop, signifcantly, as
the series progresses, and RM gives us a lot of motivatiomn for the
changes and discussion of what surrounds them. Whereas to have vetinari
inexplicably switch from a fat gluttonous hedonist to the bloke described
in Sourcery is unlikely, to say the least. We know there was a high
turnover in Patricians until Vetinari came along. The aristos in MAA list a
number whom they can remember personally. Maybe the one in TCOM was
Laughiung Lord Scapula? I don't know, but I'm confident he wasn't Vetinari.
Victoria
Colm Buckley
> [...] The thought of remebering being drunk in front of the Patrician
> sends shivers down my spine. It reminds me of the time I went to a garden
> party at Trinity college in cambridge, after having been drinking too
> much at another one first, and was told the next day that i had said to
> the Professor of mathematics (whilst absolutely stuffing my face with
> cheese straws) 'How can you devote your life to such a boring subject? I
> failed o-level maths'
Hah! That's nothing... I once asked the President of Ireland why I
hadn't seen her out jogging in the mornings in the Phoenix Park[1]...
Colm
--
Colm Buckley B.F. | EMail: Colm.B...@tcd.ie Phone: (+353 1) 6082336
Computer Science Dept | WWW: http://isg.cs.tcd.ie/cbuckley/
Trinity College | finger cbuc...@isg.cs.tcd.ie for more info.
Dublin 2, Ireland | "Unix always behaves as though you're bothering it."
[1] A large enclosed park near the centre of Dublin, which, inter alia,
contains the residence of Uachtarán na hÉireann (The President of
Ireland). I used to live near there.
James Brokaw
> Because the Companion is supposed to be a Companion *to* the books. the
> books are not written to exemplify the ideas stated in the Companion; the
> Companion is written as a guide to the books.>
I guess the point I was trying to make is that the books do contradict
themselves, so a book about the books must contradict something
somewhere. You just gave the impression that you felt "ripped-off" over
the DC's inaccuracy, when its just as accurate as the books, and more
accurate that TCOM.
(BTW, Death develops a personality, emotions, etc, in the book. As he
goes along, he breaks more rules. It doesn't make sense that early on he
should be feeling anger, and killing things out of anger, does it?)
James Brokaw
[snip]
> his weapons are his brain
> and his tongue (re. the dragon - 'If it can talk, it can negotiate. If it
> can negotiate, I've got it by the - whatever dragons' have'). Giving him
Um. Either I need to re-read Pyramids, or somethings wrong, because the
Assassins Guild is discribed as the ideal place to get such an
education. Lots of Princes and such are sent there to learn politics and
negotiating, yesno?
Mary Novak
>
>Uurgh, I went and looked at the Discworld companion in a bookshop the
>other day and was DISAPPOINTED and DEPRESSED. Faced with the choice of
>what to look up, I flicked to Lord vetinari's entry first, and there was
>a totally unsubstantiated claim about rumours that he used to be a member of
>the
>Assassin's Guild. Surely that wasn't Pterry's suggestion?
>diminish his uniqueness if you start aligning him with the assassins.
Briggs might comment on where details such as this, that don't figure
directly in the books, sprang from? My guess would be that this is an
idea Pterry's had in the back of his mind, without working it into the
Discworld canon.
Definitely we're in the tricky realm of the Trousers of Time and
alternate pasts, here. Vetinari may have been an assassin, but could he
possibly have been An Assassin? Don't we have it pretty clearly worked
out that he _created_ the law-breaking guilds? We've visited the moment
when he created and put the wind up the Thieve's Guild (a favorite bit of
mine)--"I know who you are. I know where you live. I know where your
children--my, how they've grown, isn't amazing how fast the time goes--I
know where they play."
On the other leg, the Assassins seem to have a long and distinguished
history. (I have this impression but can't cite why--just that they seem
to have more tradition than they could possibly have acquired just over
the length of the DW series.) It's possible that _a_ secret society
existed, which became _the_ Guild of the Assassins when Vetinari brought
them out into the open--if that's the case, he's still The Baddest of The
Bad for managing to do it--kicking and screaming (more likely, killing
and scheming) would the Assassins be brought pale and blinking into the
light, I should think. But now he's got them in the open, and they've
settled into the Guild system just as the thieves did.
So I'm of two minds--I'm with you, I think the more we dwell on the
day-to-day details of the Patrician (born here, raised here, trained
there, etc.) the more prosaic he becomes. He's a character who produces
great _moments_, but I wouldn't like it if he became as human as, say,
Death has. It seems to me that he's handy as he is--he's got his plans,
which don't conform with either the Good Guys or the Bad Guys, and he's
got the power to enforce them. There's a tension when a Good Guy runs up
against him somehow that wouldn't be there if you knew that at heart he
was just an old softy.
BUT, I can go along with this Assassin past--he has to be from somewhere,
if I had to guess between poor, middle class or aristocratic upbringing
I'd lean towards aristocrat. (Pterry could convince me of any of the
three, I'm sure, but if we're figuring he's not going to than this seems
most likely to me.) If you think about it, that sets up some interesting
backstory--because his biggest contribution to Ankh-Morpork has been
switching from an aristocracy to a guild system. It strikes me as cooler
and more Vetinari-consistent to have betrayed his own ruling class,
because it's Right, than if he rebelled from a lower class against the
ruling class. And he's still unique--the higher-up Assassins THINK
they're bad, but they can't begin to touch Lord Vetinari. (And won't for
less than a million dollars.) It wouldn't be a matter of Vetinari's
excelling within the school the way Victor did at UU or as Pteppic did in
the Assassin's guild--it would be more in the manner that Simon did at UU
in Equal Rites--from the beginning he was so far beyond any master's
understanding of what it _means_ to be an assassin, he used them as a
brief stepping stone towards his ultimate plan, rather than being raised
and shaped by them.
As to whether he's been the Patrician through the series--more alternate
pasts, here. I'm with you that the fat guy with the rings isn't
Vetinari, but he's a prototype, much as Cutangle in Equal Rites is a
prototype for Ridcully. I would posit that Vetinari has been Patrician
for as long as the idea of the Guilds has been firmly established in the
series--if they stretch all the way back to TCOM, I'm okay with that and
the original Patrician doesn't really count. But I'd say that the
Patrician who generated the great line "Ankh-Morpork worked on the One
Man, One Vote principle. The Patrician was The Man. He had The Vote."
(I'm almost positive it's first in Mort) was definitely our Lord
Vetinari, whether you'd have to mentally substitute "thin, black, shabby"
for "double-chins, rings" or not.
Mary Novak
mno...@rlem.tamu.edu
Martin O'Nions
sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> Sorcery needn't take place *after* Mort, need it?
>
> Victoria
>
Yes.
Rincewind was acting as the Librarian's assistant in Mort (remember the
scene where Albert returns to the University?) Since in Sourcery Rincewind
ends up in the Dungeon Dimensions, and definitely doesn't return to the
University in solid form until Interesting Times, by which point Ridcully
is well established (and Ridcully is Archchancellor at the time of Mort's
death in SM), you may have problems advancing this theory :)
Martin
--
Martin O'Nions [ENTP] Used your LART yet today? mar...@catch22.demon.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________
I never shall forget my shame / To find my son had forged my name
If he'd had any thought for others / He might at least have forged his mother's
(Harry Graham - Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes
Terry Pratchett
sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> with a sword ('You think you're so clever, so *swave*, just because I've
> got a sword and you haven't!'). It's Vimes who saves Vetinari's life by
> parrying the blow with Carrot's sword. Vetinari himself makes no attempt
> to chuck a slim-bladed, cunningly concealed knife at Worm. he would have
> *died* if Vimes hadn't intervened. Which is one of the things i really
> like about the character - his skills are so totally different from the
> usual run-of-the-mill hero. No, I don't think he *would* win a
The point is that at that moment the Patrician knew very well that he had
a much better weapon that a sword. He had a loaded Vimes.
Terry Pratchett
N. Munkman
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960417...@sable.ox.ac.uk>, Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes:
--snip--
:No, I don't think he *would* win a knife-throwing competition. He never carries
:a weapon openly and I like to think he carries no secret weapons either.
--snip--
Just because he doesn't carry a weapon doesn't mean he can't use one. If you
challenged an archery champion to an archery contest on the basis that he didn't
always carry a bow it still wouldn't change the fact that you'd lose
Neil Munkman <n.s.m...@ncl.ac.uk>
[http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~n5830424]
"I'm a cat person, myself," she said, vaguely. A low-level voice said:
Victoria Martin
On 18 Apr 1996, N. Munkman wrote:
>
>
> Just because he (Vetinari) doesn't carry a weapon doesn't mean he can't
use one. If you
> challenged an archery champion to an archery contest on the basis that he didn't
> always carry a bow it still wouldn't change the fact that you'd lose
>
Oh, okay, I won't confuse skill in wielding with actual possession. On
the other hand, to keep that skill honed, you need a lot of practice, and
where would the Patrician find the time for that with his busy
bureaucratic schedule? Maybe he has a dartboard behind the door, so he
can chuck knioves at the departing backs of people who piss him off?
Doesn't really sound like Vetinari somehow...
Victoria
Richard Kettlewell
>On the other hand, to keep that skill honed, you need a lot of
>practice, and where would the Patrician find the time for that with
>his busy bureaucratic schedule? Maybe he has a dartboard behind the
>door, so he can chuck knioves at the departing backs of people who
>piss him off? Doesn't really sound like Vetinari somehow...
No. Vetinari seems to prefer to find solutions which don't involve
him carrying out any violence (the dungeon with the lock inside the
door has to be the prime example of this) but it seems unlikely that
he'd be so foolish as to neglect a reasonable ability at self-defense.
I wouldn't have thought fitting it in so difficult either - his prime
goal seems to be to arrange for Ankh-Morpork to by and large run
itself, and assuming he's any good at that (a reasonable asssumption,
I think) he should be able to find time.
It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
place, actually.
--
Richard Kettlewell
http://www.elmail.co.uk/staff/richard/ ric...@elmail.co.uk
Hanging is too good for a man who makes puns; he should be drawn and quoted.
-- Fred Allen
Victoria Martin
On 18 Apr 1996, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >On the other hand, to keep that skill honed, you need a lot of
> >practice, and where would the Patrician find the time for that with
> >his busy bureaucratic schedule? Maybe he has a dartboard behind the
> >door, so he can chuck knioves at the departing backs of people who
> >piss him off? Doesn't really sound like Vetinari somehow...
>
[snip]
>
> I wouldn't have thought fitting it in so difficult either - his prime
> goal seems to be to arrange for Ankh-Morpork to by and large run
> itself, and assuming he's any good at that (a reasonable asssumption,
> I think) he should be able to find time.
Um. There are a lot of suggestions that 'arranging for Ankh-Morpork to by
and large run' takes up loads of time. Vimes wonders 'doesn't the bloody
man ever get his head down'; the light always seems to be on in his room
in the palace, and in one book (MAA?) we're told that some rulers manage
to know by dint of considerable effort what had happened, and others
managed, with even more effort, to know what was happening (or vice
versa). 'Vetinari considered both types to lack ambition'. And he always
seems to up to his eyeballs in paperwork, usually spies reports as far as
I can tell. Then there are all those parties to attend. And civic
ceremonies, and aristos weddings. Seems to me it would be quite hard to
find the time, though I'll concede that if anyone could manage it,
Vetinari could.
>
> It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
> place, actually.
>
yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
Terry to write this one???
Victoria
John Elliott
: Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes:
: > Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling Patrician throughout the
: > series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me because it is inaccurate (the
: > Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and lots of rings and therefore is
: > clearly not Vetinari,
: Indeed.
: > who first appears in S).
: Well, that's not exactly true. Terry himself has implied in an earlier
: a.f.p. discussion that the Patrician in Mort is already Vetinari.
In _Equal_Rites_, it is stated that the "present Patrician" invented the
Guild system. In _Men@Arms_, it is stated that Vetinari invented the Guild
system. Therefore, Vetinari is Patrician in _ER_, and has been Patrician
for 10 years by _Mort_.
btw, in _JatB_...
[minor spoiler]
Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as Ysabell's, but
give him time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Elliott |Journey to Alpha Centauri:
/////// |http://sable.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh0132/centauri.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Burbidge
alt.books.pratchett, John Elliott wrote:
> In _Equal_Rites_, it is stated that the "present Patrician" invented the
>Guild system. In _Men@Arms_, it is stated that Vetinari invented the Guild
>system. Therefore, Vetinari is Patrician in _ER_, and has been Patrician
>for 10 years by _Mort_.
Ever read 1984? Well, there was something there called "The Ministry
of Truth" . . . could Vetinari have a guild of truth . . .?
Mark Burbidge http://www.ftech.net/~monark/
Posted to abp. If in afp please edit the newsgroup line if you're
deviating from relevance.
Tom Mailloux
>The point is that at that moment the Patrician knew very well that he had
>a much better weapon that a sword. He had a loaded Vimes.
>
>Terry Pratchett
Ok, who left a loaded Vimes laying around??? We're just lucky it didn't
fall into the wrong hands...
Anders Henriksson
> "I've always thought the Patrician is a party animal. Can you imagine
> waking up next day and remembering all those witty things you said and
> did, and then realising that he was listening?"
Ahh, one of the best things about being sober at a party. Next day you
can go round telling those who have hangovers about all the stupid and
annoying stuff they did last night. Hehe! <fx: sadistic grin> ;-)
/Anders
--
_ _ _ _ ___
| \| |_____ __ _| |__(_)__|__ \ Mail Al...@lspace.org for afp introduction.
| .` / -_) V V / '_ \ / -_)/_/ -------------------------------------------
|_|\_\___|\_/\_/|_.__/_\___(_) Anders Henriksson - d95...@dtek.chalmers.se
Terry Pratchett
sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> >
> > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
> > place, actually.
> >
> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
> Terry to write this one???
>
The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
Constable Nobbs, and a teenage Dibbler, and Gaspode's great-grandad...aargh,
I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
(Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
University.
"What is you name, boy?
"Rincewind, sir!")
Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
Quick, stop me before I write again!
Terry
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
>
> Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as Ysabell's, but
> give him time.
Has he? Three books have been written about him over a period of five years,
certainly. But for all you know there may have been only a few months of 'his'
time between them. I don't think his age is mentioned in Johnny and the Bomb
-- I'd imagine he's heading towards 14 now.
The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
Terry Pratchett
Ben Waggoner
: Oh, okay, I won't confuse skill in wielding with actual possession. On
: the other hand, to keep that skill honed, you need a lot of practice, and
: where would the Patrician find the time for that with his busy
: bureaucratic schedule? Maybe he has a dartboard behind the door, so he
: can chuck knioves at the departing backs of people who piss him off?
: Doesn't really sound like Vetinari somehow...
Vetinari has an immense amount of practice in wielding perhaps the
trickiest and deadliest weapon ever invented: people. Other people. Who
needs knives and arrows and gonnes when you can wield other people's
minds and plans?
--
Ben Waggoner
Richard Kettlewell
>Um. There are a lot of suggestions that 'arranging for Ankh-Morpork
>to by and large run' takes up loads of time. Vimes wonders 'doesn't
>the bloody man ever get his head down'; the light always seems to be
>on in his room in the palace,
...of course I could argue that no-one really knows what Vetinari does
with his time; but I think I'd be stretching the point rather.
>'Vetinari considered both types to lack ambition'.
That was one of the lines I thought hit home rather well at the time,
actually, now you come to mention it l-)
>Richard Kettlewell <ric...@elmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
>>place, actually.
[One image that immediately springs to mind is of the citizens of
Ankh-Morpork waking up one morning to find they've got a new ruler,
but with no-one being quite sure how, least of all his predecessor
(should he be unlucky enough to be still alive).]
>yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
>Terry to write this one???
Mr P...?
Elaine Walker
>Definitely we're in the tricky realm of the Trousers of Time and
>alternate pasts, here. Vetinari may have been an assassin, but could he
>possibly have been An Assassin? Don't we have it pretty clearly worked
>out that he _created_ the law-breaking guilds? We've visited the moment
>when he created and put the wind up the Thieve's Guild (a favorite bit of
>mine)--"I know who you are. I know where you live. I know where your
>children--my, how they've grown, isn't amazing how fast the time goes--I
>know where they play."
>
>On the other leg, the Assassins seem to have a long and distinguished
>history. (I have this impression but can't cite why--just that they seem
>to have more tradition than they could possibly have acquired just over
>the length of the DW series.) It's possible that _a_ secret society
>existed, which became _the_ Guild of the Assassins when Vetinari brought
>them out into the open--if that's the case, he's still The Baddest of The
>Bad for managing to do it--kicking and screaming (more likely, killing
>and scheming) would the Assassins be brought pale and blinking into the
>light, I should think. But now he's got them in the open, and they've
>settled into the Guild system just as the thieves did.
>
>BUT, I can go along with this Assassin past--he has to be from somewhere,
>if I had to guess between poor, middle class or aristocratic upbringing
>I'd lean towards aristocrat. (Pterry could convince me of any of the
>three, I'm sure, but if we're figuring he's not going to than this seems
Mind you, if he was an assasin then he would have to be the most successful
one ever, working from the guild criteria that it's not how many people you
inhume, it's how many fail to inhume you.
Aria
(trying out a new newsreader since she got her nice ethernet card and
her normal newsreader is ftooey)
Aria, sci-fi fan, astronomer, : Time paradoxes will have
and physicist! Yep, I'm mad. : given me a headache.
Email: wal...@fizzy.murdoch.edu.au :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike
ma...@monark.ftech.co.uk "Mark Burbidge" writes:
> Ever read 1984? Well, there was something there called "The Ministry
> of Truth" . . . could Vetinari have a guild of truth . . .?
I think that in Ankh-Morpork there are already more than enough versions of
The Truth to go around...
Mike
Richard Martin
> The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
Other ageless characters might include James Bond and Biggles, also
[possibly] the Saint. It's been a long time since i've read any Enid
Blyton [sp?], but i've a nagging feeling that the Secret Seven and
the Famous Five had discovered their own fountains of youth, also.
frodo =)
--
Richard Martin [not speaking for a|w]
rma...@aw.sgi.com http://reality.sgi.com/rmartin_aw/
Alias|Wavefront - Toronto Office [Co-op Software Developer, Games Team]
Richard Martin
Ian A. York
Ben Waggoner <b...@uclink2.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>Vetinari has an immense amount of practice in wielding perhaps the
>trickiest and deadliest weapon ever invented: people. Other people. Who
>needs knives and arrows and gonnes when you can wield other people's
>minds and plans?
Yup. Interesting Times first shows how expert Hong is at manipulating
and predicting people, and how deadly that skill is; and then strongly
hints that Hong is an amateur compared to Vetinari.
Any links, by the way, between Vetinari and veterinarian? I've no idea
how there could be, I'm just wondering if the words being homonyms [1] is
coincidence or not.
Ian
[1] Or whatever the right term for words wot sound alike is.
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"As things are, most Usenet postings are of no interest to socially
well-adjusted people over the age of twelve." -Nature 376:200 (1995)
Keith Willoughby
Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
> In article <4l5rsg$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
> ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
>
> >
> > Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as Ysabell's, but
> > give him time.
>
> Has he? Three books have been written about him over a period of five years,
> certainly. But for all you know there may have been only a few months of 'his'
> time between them. I don't think his age is mentioned in Johnny and the Bomb
> -- I'd imagine he's heading towards 14 now.
>
> The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
>
> Terry Pratchett
>
And Jennings was 10 for a good thirty. I'm a bit unsure which I prefer,
ageing or imortality. Jennings was so reasuring, you always knew what he
was going to do, because he was always the same. However, in Swallows and
Amazons, there was your actual character-development, and you sort of
grew with the kids. Not figuratively of course - that would make me about
92 now. The biggest difference was in The Pine Tree Club books - they started
off as kids having spiffing adventures, and ending up as young-adults who
were to old for the adventure malarkey and talked about getting married to
each other. This was seriously disturbing to me as a child.
Not strictly relevant to a.b.p, but Pterry started it. :)
--
Keith Willoughby, Swanse, Wales
"My job is very boring, I'm an office clerk"
Keith Willoughby
Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960418...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> > >
> > > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
> > > place, actually.
> > >
> > yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
> > Terry to write this one???
> >
> Tricky...
>
> The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
> knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
> Constable Nobbs, and a teenage Dibbler, and Gaspode's great-grandad...aargh,
> I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
> allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
> Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
> (Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
> University.
>
> "What is you name, boy?
>
> "Rincewind, sir!")
>
> Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
>
> Quick, stop me before I write again!
>
> Terry
Blimey, an actual TP thought process just going on in front of us.
You sounded all excited then. Does anybody remotely think that, say, Tom
Clancy gets excited about writing books? (and I love Tom Clancy)
Authors (or any artists) getting excited about their work is, to me,
what*it*is*all*about. I like Kevin Costner films, I hate Tarantino films,
but Tarantino's almost childlike LOVE of what he does for a living is
infectious. I know with which I'd rather drink cocktails on an Hawaiian beach,
anyway.
__
David O'Brien
>Any links, by the way, between Vetinari and veterinarian? I've no idea
>how there could be, I'm just wondering if the words being homonyms [1] is
>coincidence or not.
the ruler(s) of Ankh-Morpork are the Vetinari. This one *must* be in
the annotations...
dave
David O'Brien, BE C.Eng MIEI, Transport Modeller, GIBB Reading, UK
dob...@gibb.mhs.compuserve.com, d...@diaspoir.demon.co.uk
Voice:(+44/0) 1734 263 311 x2290, Home: (+44/0) 1256 768 642
------------------------------------------------------------------
David Thompson
<Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
And my favorite aunty's been 30ish for more than 10 years
David T.
At work, rest and play on
d.tho...@unn.ac.uk
d.tho...@ukonline.co.uk
Mike
ke...@cowtown.demon.co.uk "Keith Willoughby" writes:
> In article <829836...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
> Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
>
> > The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
> And Jennings was 10 for a good thirty. I'm a bit unsure which I prefer,
> ageing or imortality. Jennings was so reasuring, you always knew what he
> was going to do, because he was always the same. However, in Swallows and
> Amazons, there was your actual character-development, and you sort of
> grew with the kids.
A growing Titty! The mind boggles (and festers). Sorry, somebody had to say
it. I don't think Jennings and Derbyshire would be quite the same if they
were written today. I somehow think drugs and odd sexual practises might
feature somewhere. On the other hand, that could just be wishful thinking.
Sindy and Barbie have got good figures for their ages too. I think character
development might be a bit too taxing for their originators. The odd cut and
stitch mark or funny hair line would be more realistic. Many authors don't
write about characters getting older because they think they are gradually
writing themselves out of a job. The Famous Five must have had at least a
dozen long summer holidays. I don't think even _then_ that two teenage lads
(gratuitous mention of Dick deleted) and two teenage 'gels (okay, perhaps
one 'gel) would have been allowed on holiday on their own. Now there's the
starting point for a good story. Julian gets Anne pregnant and they live in a
council flat, Dick gets convicted of a bestiality offence with Timmy and
George shacks up with that nice farm girl.
(Groups trimmed to reduce flamage)
Mike.
Ian Hogg
Well, doesn't it say somewhere that the Vetinari Family had been in
power for a long time? This could just be another Vetinari - same mind,
different shape - prabably had a heart attack or something if he was
overweight.
Ian
===
--
============================================================================
If it's not Scottish, it's crap!
Mike Meyers - probably Saturday night live - then again
maybe it wasn't!
============================================================================
Midnight Tree Bandit
was seen stating:
>And Jennings was 10 for a good thirty. I'm a bit unsure which I prefer,
>ageing or imortality. Jennings was so reasuring, you always knew what he
>was going to do, because he was always the same. However, in Swallows and
>Amazons, there was your actual character-development, and you sort of
>grew with the kids. Not figuratively of course - that would make me about
>92 now. The biggest difference was in The Pine Tree Club books - they started
>off as kids having spiffing adventures, and ending up as young-adults who
>were to old for the adventure malarkey and talked about getting married to
>each other. This was seriously disturbing to me as a child.
Wow... Swallows and Amazons... My mother made me read those when I was
young(er). This is the first time I have heard of them from anyone outside my
family in 20 years. My mom made me read them, but I loved them. And the E
Nesbitt books, too (also unheard of on this side of The Pond -- I never got
into the Bastable Children, though).
Anyway, fictional children have always been immortal, in story and in other
media. PEOPLE don't age. Sherlock Holmes will always be in his mid-30's in
my mind. Calvin was 6 years old for ten years. Dennis the Menace has been
for 40 or so. Baum's Dorothy did not age much. And despite the apparent
passage of time, I don't really think of the DW characters aging, except when
they mention it. So if Johnny (who, alas, I have not read) ages more slowly
than "real" people, it really shouldn't be surprising. There is a long
tradition of it.
-=><=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
100,000 druids can't be wrong! | There are 178 parent languages on our
Rev. Midnight Tree Bandit (ULC) | planet, with over one thousand dialects.
mtba...@io.com | It's amazing we communicate at all.
http://www.io.com/~mtbandit/ | -- EBN OZN
Stefan Linnemann
}In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960417...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
} sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
}> I've had another thought. What about in G!G! where Worm threatens him
}> with a sword ('You think you're so clever, so *swave*, just because I've
}> got a sword and you haven't!'). It's Vimes who saves Vetinari's life by
}> parrying the blow with Carrot's sword. Vetinari himself makes no attempt
}> to chuck a slim-bladed, cunningly concealed knife at Worm. he would have
}> *died* if Vimes hadn't intervened. Which is one of the things i really
}> like about the character - his skills are so totally different from the
}> knife-throwing competition. He never carries a weapon openly...
}The point is that at that moment the Patrician knew very well that he had
}a much better weapon that a sword. He had a loaded Vimes.
B|N>K
You did it again. I'll have to stop reading this group, or the PC
group will worry why their spare keyboards deteriorate so much.
Knuffel,
Stefan.
--
Stefan M. Linnemann URL: http://mazur.leidenuniv.nl/
System programmer Unix Email: S.M.Li...@cri.LeidenUniv.nl
CRI, Leiden University, NL. IRC nick: Mazur
Thomas Womack
: In article <4l75vs$m...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
: Ben Waggoner <b...@uclink2.berkeley.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Vetinari has an immense amount of practice in wielding perhaps the
: >trickiest and deadliest weapon ever invented: people. Other people. Who
: >needs knives and arrows and gonnes when you can wield other people's
: >minds and plans?
: Yup. Interesting Times first shows how expert Hong is at manipulating
: and predicting people, and how deadly that skill is; and then strongly
: hints that Hong is an amateur compared to Vetinari.
: Any links, by the way, between Vetinari and veterinarian? I've no idea
: how there could be, I'm just wondering if the words being homonyms [1] is
: coincidence or not.
Medici (Patriarch-like rulers of Florence, the inspiration of Machiavelli) means
'Doctors'. Hence Vetinari, trying to mean 'vet'. So yes.
: Ian
: [1] Or whatever the right term for words wot sound alike is.
: --
: Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
: "As things are, most Usenet postings are of no interest to socially
: well-adjusted people over the age of twelve." -Nature 376:200 (1995)
--
Tom Womack. Snail - Merton College, Oxford OX1 4JD
web - http://info.ox.ac.uk/~mert0236
finger for public key
John Fouhy
Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
> > place, actually.
> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
> Terry to write this one???
Probably wasn't that difficult...
Ordinary rank-climbing while the other patricians were in power, then one
goes..
Can you imagine anyone arguing with Venitari? Even his predecessor...
Or, alternately, he put himself forward as the person every powerful
house would /least/ like to have in power, and thus, due to the wonders
of spies, got voted in as a way of getting at your rivals. :-)
And oh, were they got at..
John Elliott
: In article <4l5rsg$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
: ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
: >
: > Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as Ysabell's, but
: > give him time.
: Has he? Three books have been written about him over a period of five years,
: certainly. But for all you know there may have been only a few months of
: 'his' time between them.
Hmm. I thought OYCSM was set in 1991 (Gulf War references) and someone
in JatB says it's 1996.
LI Endell
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960418...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
: sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
: > >
: > > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
: > > place, actually.
: > >
: > yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
: > Terry to write this one???
: Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
: Quick, stop me before I write again!
: Terry
What about if we club together and provide you with an advance? Sounds
to me like a great book waiting to be written/read :-)
Lindsay
PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to either.
Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of honour... Good grief, *I*
have just thought of a way of making it work :-)
LI Endell
: On Thu, 18 Apr 96 14:08:13 GMT, Terry Pratchett
: <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
: And my favorite aunty's been 30ish for more than 10 years
Sounds good to me (impending 30th birthday...)
Actually, 25ish sounds good to me and is roughly where most ppl who
don't know my age gauge it to be.
Damn. Let you all know, now, haven't I :-(
Lindsay
Terry Pratchett
mtba...@io.com "Midnight Tree Bandit" writes:
>
> Wow... Swallows and Amazons... My mother made me read those when I was
> young(er). This is the first time I have heard of them from anyone outside my
> family in 20 years. My mom made me read them, but I loved them. And the E
> Nesbitt books, too (also unheard of on this side of The Pond -- I never got
> into the Bastable Children, though).
God, I was a socialist little kid -- I hated the piping-voiced
Swallows and Amazons and I was highly suspicious of Narnia, too. They seemed to
be talking to other kids in that Blue Peter world where every home had
large supplies of stick-backed plastic. The Alice books I thought were
nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
But I loved Nesbitt. Odd, that. There was an ironic tone there. And
the Just William books...jeez, home many were there...sixty? I must have read
all of them. I don't think they even *began* to sell in the US. And there
was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
soon enough :-)
Terry Pratchett
Simon Callan
Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk (Terry Pratchett) wrote:
[...]
> The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
> knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
> Constable Nobbs, and a teenage Dibbler, and Gaspode's great-grandad...aargh,
> I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
> allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
> Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
> (Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
> University.
>
> "What is you name, boy?
>
> "Rincewind, sir!")
>
> Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
>
> Quick, stop me before I write again!
Somehoe, I get the feeling that this is not the right group of people to
ask for assistance in stoppin you from writing, they are much more
likely to sit you down in front of the word-processor, and stand there
guarding the door from interruptions.
Simon
--
Simon
MBTI: INTX
Purity: 87%
... Mr. Worf, set phasors on spin dry.
Terry Pratchett
> Terry Pratchett (Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960418...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> : sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> : > >
> : > > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
> : > > place, actually.
> : > >
> : > yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
> : > Terry to write this one???
> : >
>
> : Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
>
> : Quick, stop me before I write again!
>
> : Terry
>
> What about if we club together and provide you with an advance? Sounds
> to me like a great book waiting to be written/read :-)
>
> Lindsay
>
> PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
> meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to either.
> Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of honour... Good grief, *I*
> have just thought of a way of making it work :-)
>
Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and I should
finishing the next book! :-)
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
> In article <829836...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
> (Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : In article <4l5rsg$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
> : ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
>
> : >
> : > Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as Ysabell's, but
> : > give him time.
>
> : Has he? Three books have been written about him over a period of five years,
> : certainly. But for all you know there may have been only a few months of
> : 'his' time between them.
>
> Hmm. I thought OYCSM was set in 1991 (Gulf War references) and someone
> in JatB says it's 1996.
The bookshop's bound to let you have your money back, then...
Terry Pratchett
Lee Staniforth
<Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960418...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
>> >
>> > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
>> > place, actually.
>> >
>> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
>> Terry to write this one???
>>
>
>The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
>knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
>Constable Nobbs, and a teenage Dibbler, and Gaspode's great-grandad...aargh,
>I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
>allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
>Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
>(Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
>University.
>
>"What is you name, boy?
>
>"Rincewind, sir!")
>
>
>Quick, stop me before I write again!
I've always been wary of prequels being written (a la Asimov's
Foundation), but if there's one author that could pull it off, it would
be Pterry.
There could be several sets (as it were), ie we could look at how Granny
Weatherwax became a witch (drawing on the hints in the latter books),
and her early relationship with Ridcully... eek!
However, Death would probably be more difficult to right, as in the past
his character was less human... Actually, doesn't he exists out of time
?
Another story might delve into Ysabelle's past.
Hmmm... sounds good.
--
Lee Staniforth, Chairman
MancheXter '97 - The UK X-Files Convention
+=================================================================+
| The MANCHESTER X-FILES VIDEOTHON. See unseen Season 3 episodes |
| 12pm - 6pm, Sat 4 May 1996, Mitre Hotel, Manchester. UKP3.00 |
+=================================================================+
Midnight Tree Bandit
was seen stating:
>Tricky...
>The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
>knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
[writer's thought processes at work trimmed]
>Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
>Quick, stop me before I write again!
We wouldn't dream of it. It might become a habit, and there goes your primary
source of income.
Besides, we have faith in your ability to make it work.
Mr C Newman
Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes:
[ Snip a lot I agree with, being that sort of person ]
>achievements and diminsihes his uniqueness. I reckon he'd be crap in
>mortal combat. Just as ankh-Morpork wins battles by cheating and prefers
>top sell arms to the enemy, so the patrician would always have to talk or
>think his way out of a tight spot, but not *fight*.
Nonono Lord Vetinari would never talk his way out of a tight spot.
He would talk his way further into it, and the further in we talked
himself, the faster he would talk himself even further in, then whoever
he was talking to would suddenly find the Patrician's facial language
quietly slithering into his brain to inform him that he was, in fact,
on the inside of the tight spot he thought he had Vetinari in.
>Victoria
ChrisN and his Mobius excuse note.
--
_________________-----_________________
"""""-----"""""""""""""""""""""-##()n()##-"""""""""""""""""""""-----"""""
____===**#**V**#**===____
***
Mr C Newman
Hedg...@photobooks.atdc.gatech.edu (James Brokaw) writes:
>Victoria Martin (sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>> Uurgh, I went and looked at the Discworld companion in a bookshop the
>> other day and was DISAPPOINTED and DEPRESSED. Faced with the choice of
>> what to look up, I flicked to Lord vetinari's entry first, and there was
>> a totally unsubstantiated claim about rumours that he used to be a member of
>> the
>> Assassin's Guild. Surely that wasn't Pterry's suggestion? I can't believe
>
>Have your read Pyramids?
Yes. The beginning in Ankh-Morpork was brilliant, but the only good part
of the whole of the rest that I can recall is "Let legs equal four."
Sorry.
>Not _mentioned_, maybe, but hinted. How many other people can hear the
>head of the Assassins Guild sneaking up on them?
Me. Right now. All the time. Even when he isn't doing it. How's THAT
for sharp hearing?
ChrisN, and I thought slim-fast diets in A-M involved swords?
Mr C Newman
Victoria Martin <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>
>
>On 18 Apr 1996, N. Munkman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Just because he (Vetinari) doesn't carry a weapon doesn't mean he can't
>> use one. If you
>> challenged an archery champion to an archery contest on the basis that he
>> didn't always carry a bow it still wouldn't change the fact that you'd lose
Not if he started shooting at the straw butt and I started shooting at him.
>Oh, okay, I won't confuse skill in wielding with actual possession. On
>the other hand, to keep that skill honed, you need a lot of practice, and
>where would the Patrician find the time for that with his busy
>bureaucratic schedule? Maybe he has a dartboard behind the door, so he
>can chuck knioves at the departing backs of people who piss him off?
>Doesn't really sound like Vetinari somehow...
Nor does it sound like Vetinari to practise on the plasterer working just
the far side of the door after each of Captain Vimes' visits.
>Victoria
Rats?
Cats? (Name the eye, double your score! Two named eyes and one in
either wins any prize in the stall!)
ChrisN
Mr C Newman
Richard Kettlewell <ric...@elmail.co.uk> writes:
>
>... the citizens of Ankh-Morpork waking up one morning ...
,:)
Andrew Crane
companion. Hurrah! I think it will be updated with some errors removed.
--
Andrew C
Lee Staniforth
writes
>
>Sounds good to me (impending 30th birthday...)
>
>Actually, 25ish sounds good to me and is roughly where most ppl who
>don't know my age gauge it to be.
>
>Damn. Let you all know, now, haven't I :-(
*Ahem*
Some of us knew already, and were just planning a special Birthday
Greeting (8^)
It should be around here somewhere...
Mr Alien X. Xenomorph
Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
> In article <4larbt$p...@netty.york.ac.uk> li...@york.ac.uk "LI Endell" writes:
<snip>
> > PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
> > meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to either.
> > Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of honour... Good grief, *I*
> > have just thought of a way of making it work :-)
> >
>
> Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and I should
^^^^^ Oh oh. 5 exclamation marks!
> finishing the next book! :-)
--
Alien
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mail | Mail | Starting Windows 95....... | MBTI |
| al...@lspace.org | cm...@lspace.org | This program has performed | score |
| for Newbie Pack and | for GOLHCA | an illegal operation and | ENFP |
| greetings to AFP | t-shirt | will be shut down. | |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sten Thaning
>Rincewind was acting as the Librarian's assistant in Mort (remember the
>scene where Albert returns to the University?) Since in Sourcery Rincewind
>ends up in the Dungeon Dimensions, and definitely doesn't return to the
>University in solid form until Interesting Times, by which point Ridcully
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not have the book in my immediate surroundings at the present
moment, but didn't Rincewind return in Faust^H^H^H^H^HEric? I have a
distinct memory that that was an important part of the plot.
- Sten Thaning (Sten.t...@mbox200.swipnet.se)
Midnight Tree Bandit
was seen stating:
>In article <4l9lc2$3...@anarchy.io.com>
> mtba...@io.com "Midnight Tree Bandit" writes:
>>
>> Wow... Swallows and Amazons... My mother made me read those when I was
>> young(er). This is the first time I have heard of them from anyone outside my
>> family in 20 years. My mom made me read them, but I loved them. And the E
>> Nesbitt books, too (also unheard of on this side of The Pond -- I never got
>> into the Bastable Children, though).
>God, I was a socialist little kid -- I hated the piping-voiced
>Swallows and Amazons and I was highly suspicious of Narnia, too. They seemed to
>be talking to other kids in that Blue Peter world where every home had
>large supplies of stick-backed plastic. The Alice books I thought were
>nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
>of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
I only read two of the Ransom books, and I think I liked them more for his
writing style than the stories themselves. When you put it that way yes,
their world was a little too perfect... a family life too much like Merkin
50's sitcom families ("a perfect little world that doesn't really need you" as
Laurie Anderson says). But, for all that, I liked 'em when I was very young.
But not as much as those kids in Nesbitt (who seemed to get in trouble every
time they talked to the Psaamead or rode on the carpet). The Alice books
scared me. I never read the Narnia books. I went straight to his space
trilogy and then wondered why. What I really liked, though, were the old
fairy tales at my grandmother's summer house... Princess and the Goblin (never
went on to the other Princess and Curdie books), the various fairy books,
albanian fairy tales, The Golden Cat, the Cuckoo Clock. Those magical little
worlds were far more fun than the Tolkien worlds.
Disney had a way of ruining any story. Still does. Note the wild
inaccuracies in "Pocahontas" (and as one who lives in the county her tribe
comes from, I've heard plenty about them). Now I suppose every kid will grow
up thinking she married John Smith... But then, Shakespeare had that effect
on perception of history, doesn't he? How many believe Richard had the little
princes killed because of the play?
-=><=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
100,000 druids can't be wrong! | \| | Keeper of
Rev. Midnight Tree Bandit (ULC) | \\| |\__o The Arboretum
mtba...@io.com | __\\| |\`/ Hedgehog Sanctuary
http://www.io.com/~mtbandit/ | /____\ <----(actual photo)
Midnight Tree Bandit
seen stating:
>David Thompson (d.tho...@ukonline.co.uk) wrote:
>: And my favorite aunty's been 30ish for more than 10 years
>Sounds good to me (impending 30th birthday...)
>Actually, 25ish sounds good to me and is roughly where most ppl who
>don't know my age gauge it to be.
Being 32 doesn't bother me. It's having an 18 year old niece preparing to go
to college that makes me feel old. But I suppose that's what I get for having
a brother 13 years older than me.
-=><=-
9note change in follow-ups)
Midnight Tree Bandit
was seen stating:
>In article <4larbt$p...@netty.york.ac.uk> li...@york.ac.uk "LI Endell" writes:
>> PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
>> meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to either.
>> Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of honour... Good grief, *I*
>> have just thought of a way of making it work :-)
IIRC[1], it *was* mentioned that Vimes and Wonse knew each other before either
had reached their respective positions...
>Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and I should
>finishing the next book! :-)
I seem to recall something about using both hands....[2]
:1
-=><=-
[1] and I hope I *do*, having just finished re-reading G!G! in the last two
days.
[2] even have it saved to disk, in case Demon has expired it already
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
James Brokaw
> Somehoe, I get the feeling that this is not the right group of people to
> ask for assistance in stoppin you from writing, they are much more
> likely to sit you down in front of the word-processor, and stand there
> guarding the door from interruptions.
..while reading over the shoulder and suggesting bits?[1]
--
\\\\\ ----> hedg...@photobooks.com <----
\\\\\\\__o Bringing hedgehogs to the common folk since 1994.
__\\\\\\\'/________________________________________________________
[1] "Oi! That ought to be a *wicker* gate!"
"Naw... Make it wooden..."
"Person'ly, I think a metal door would be right...."
Dick Gill
<Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960418...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
>> >
>> > It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the first
>> > place, actually.
>> >
>> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could persuade
>> Terry to write this one???
>>
>
>The trouble with writing a Discworld 'pre-quel' is that it would be, well, too
>knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
>I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
>allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
>Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
>(Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
>University.
>
>"What is you name, boy?
>
>"Rincewind, sir!")
>
>
>Quick, stop me before I write again!
>
Imagine..... Three young good looking witches......
well, maybe a bit good looking....
Richard Gill
Dick Gill
>knowing. Yep, there's the youthful Vetinari (and Corporal Vimes and
>Constable Nobbs, and a teenage Dibbler, and Gaspode's great-grandad...aargh,
>I *know how it goes*) and yet I'd have to write it very carefully to
>allow for the fact that said events are not referred to in the later books.
>Supposing Vimes' life is save by Vetinari -- he's never mentioned it *now*.
>(Oh lor', in my imagination a fresh-faced young lad has enrolled at the
>University.
>
>"What is you name, boy?
>
>"Rincewind, sir!")
>
>Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
>
>Quick, stop me before I write again!
>
>Terry
>
>
>
I'm new to this, read e'm all in 6 months. However,
Do it..................
Richard Gill
Email rg...@gillcomp.demon.co.uk
Stephen Briggs
Er.. this is not *imminent* -- in fact, it's definitely on the back
burner at the moment.
Stephen
Colm Buckley
>> == li...@york.ac.uk "LI Endell"
>>>> == sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin"
>>>>> == Richard Kettlewell <ric...@elmail.co.uk>
>>>>> It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the
>>>>> first place, actually.
>>>> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could
>>>> persuade Terry to write this one???
>>> Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work.... Quick,
>>> stop me before I write again!
>> What about if we club together and provide you with an advance?
>> Sounds to me like a great book waiting to be written/read :-)
>> PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
>> meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to
>> either. Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of
>> honour... Good grief, *I* have just thought of a way of making it
>> work :-)
> Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and I
> should be finishing the next book! :-)
Wow... so *that's* how it all happens... Terry, if you're serious and
this does happen, I strongly suspect that the confusion over alternate
pasts will be sufficient to maintain lively discussion well into the
next millennium. Batten down the hatches, Leo...
Colm
--
Colm Buckley B.F. | EMail: Colm.B...@tcd.ie Phone: (+353 1) 6082336
Computer Science Dept | WWW: http://isg.cs.tcd.ie/cbuckley/
Trinity College | finger cbuc...@isg.cs.tcd.ie for more info.
Dublin 2, Ireland | "Unix always behaves as though you're bothering it."
David Thompson
<Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>God, I was a socialist little kid -- I hated the piping-voiced
>Swallows and Amazons and I was highly suspicious of Narnia, too. They seemed to
>be talking to other kids in that Blue Peter world where every home had
>large supplies of stick-backed plastic. The Alice books I thought were
>nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
>of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
>
Narnia scared me shitless. You may remember the Beeb in B/W and
12" screen days when they did those classic serials, ponderous,
deep-voiced narrative, heavy with menace, and the pace of a slug
on valium.
Even The Secret Garden made me hide behind the sofa . . . .
As for Alice, I could never understand the book except in the
abridged version. Just as I hear Gulliver's Travels in the
original is unreadable and, following the TV version, is turning
out to be yet another of those "books-we-must-have-but-can't-get
beyond-page-5."
But, The Little Grey Men . . . . . ey chuck, I'm filling up.
Aren't I a softie.
David T.
At work, rest and play on
d.tho...@unn.ac.uk
d.tho...@ukonline.co.uk
David Dylan
AH> From: d95...@dtek.chalmers.se (Anders Henriksson)
AH>
AH> Leo Breebaart <l...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl> wrote:
> "I've always thought the Patrician is a party animal. Can you imagine
> waking up next day and remembering all those witty things you said and
> did, and then realising that he was listening?"
AH>
AH> Ahh, one of the best things about being sober at a party. Next day you
AH> can go round telling those who have hangovers about all the stupid and
AH> annoying stuff they did last night. Hehe! <fx: sadistic grin> ;-)
In one of my favourite hang-outs, before I , yes what _did_ happen??
Well anyway, the place is called Korsakow, and they used to play a song
that went a litle like this:
What did I say to you last night?
I can't remeber a word.
What did I say to you last night?
That everyone overheared...
What did I say to you last night...
<Whole Audience shouting along and stamping army boots on floor>
'I MUST STOP DRINKING!'
Don't know what band, but it was at closing time usually.
... Don't play "stupid" with me--I'm better at it.
Terry Pratchett
d.tho...@unn.ac.uk "David Thompson" writes:
>
> But, The Little Grey Men . . . . . ey chuck, I'm filling up.
> Aren't I a softie.
>
The Little Grey Men, Down the Bright Stream, Brendon Chase, The Forest
of Boland Light Railway...
'BB' wrote good books. If the Truckers have ancestors, they're not
among the rather soppy Borrowers but might be among BB's gnomes -- tough
little devils who would take on a human if they had to. They could kick ankle.
Terry Pratchett
T M Joyce
: Definitely we're in the tricky realm of the Trousers of Time and
: alternate pasts, here. Vetinari may have been an assassin, but could he
: possibly have been An Assassin? Don't we have it pretty clearly worked
: out that he _created_ the law-breaking guilds? We've visited the moment
: when he created and put the wind up the Thieve's Guild (a favorite bit of
: mine)--"I know who you are. I know where you live. I know where your
: children--my, how they've grown, isn't amazing how fast the time goes--I
: know where they play."
: On the other leg, the Assassins seem to have a long and distinguished
: history. (I have this impression but can't cite why--just that they seem
: to have more tradition than they could possibly have acquired just over
: the length of the DW series.) It's possible that _a_ secret society
: existed, which became _the_ Guild of the Assassins when Vetinari brought
: them out into the open--if that's the case, he's still The Baddest of The
: Bad for managing to do it--kicking and screaming (more likely, killing
: and scheming) would the Assassins be brought pale and blinking into the
: light, I should think. But now he's got them in the open, and they've
: settled into the Guild system just as the thieves did.
I think that the assassins probably always operated openly, as
assassination seems to be a fairly popular means of foreign policy on the
disc. Vetinari's innovation was not to invent the Guild system, but to
bring the thieves and other "lower class" occupations into a guild and to
increase the influence of the Guilds in general
--
ttfn,
Tom
<email: t.m....@durham.ac.uk >
<snailmail: Tom Joyce, Hatfield College, Durham, DH1 3RQ>
"I drank WHAT?" - Last words of Socrates
Dominic Dunlop
> And there
> was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
> discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
> soon enough :-)
From the Bodlian library:
Author(s): Lindsay, Norman, 1879-1969
Title: The magic pudding : being the adventures of Bunyip Bluegum and his
friends Bill Barnacle and Sam Sawnoff
by Norman Lindsay
Publisher: Angus and Robertson, Sydney, 1963
Edition: New ed
Note: Dust jacket
171 p. : ill. 25 cm
[No ISBN listed]
and also
Author(s): Lindsay, Norman, 1879-1969
Title: The magic pudding : being the adventures of Bunyip Bluezum and his
friends Bill Barnacle & Sam Sawnoff
by Norman Lindsay
Publisher: Angus & Robertson, London, 1983
ISBN/ISSN: 0207146136
171 p ; 20 cm
Me, I liked The 35th of May (in English translation) by Erich Kaestner (or Emil
and the Detectives fame. Sunk without trace. Well, no trace in the Bod, anyway.
My mother sent my copy to a jumble sale. Why do parents do these things? Maybe
I should ask my son...
Bjorn.Bjornsson
->In article <4l5rsg$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
-> ell...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk "John Elliott" writes:
->
->>
->> Johnny's been 12 for 5 years. Not quite as good a record as
-Ysabell's, but >> give him time.
->
->Has he? Three books have been written about him over a period of five
->years,
->certainly. But for all you know there may have been only a few months
->of 'his'
->time between them. I don't think his age is mentioned in Johnny and
->the Bomb. I'd imagine he's heading towards 14 now.
Ye Gods! Are you hinting at what I think you're hinting at...
That's a troublesome age, that is, plus with Ksan^H^H^H^HKlyt^H^H^H^Hwossname
hanging around.
Wasn't it enough for you to make Carrot's bedsprings go 'Glink'??
->The famous Just William was 11 for about forty years...
So why shouldn't Johnny??[1]
->Terry Pratchett
Bjorn
[1]Yes, I know, advancing one's characters.[2]
[2]On a similar, but totally *I* note: I definitely thing that Clark
Kent should take on the greatest challenge know to man, marriage...
Victoria Martin
On 19 Apr 1996, Ian Hogg wrote:
>
> Well, doesn't it say somewhere that the Vetinari Family had been in
> power for a long time? This could just be another Vetinari - same mind,
> different shape - prabably had a heart attack or something if he was
> overweight.
>
> Ian
> ===
As I remember it, it said "head of the enormously rich and powerful
Vetinari family" and that was it. What has always struck me si that the
Vetinari family, however rich and powerful, doesn't seem to be very
*large*. Beyond the aunt living in Pseudopolis - whom the pqtrician was
quite keen to hoist onto any hero who could get rid of the dragon - none
of his relations ever crops up. Which is just as well - I find it very
hard to imagine a dowager Lady vetinari fussing over Havelock's clean
collars and asking him when he was going to provide her with
grandchildren a la Bridget jones's mum.
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, Terry Pratchett wrote:
>
> God, I was a socialist little kid -- I hated the piping-voiced
> Swallows and Amazons and I was highly suspicious of Narnia, too. They seemed to
> be talking to other kids in that Blue Peter world where every home had
> large supplies of stick-backed plastic. The Alice books I thought were
> nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
> of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
>
I'm impressed. Clearly you were a child prodigy, morally. I used to love
Narnia and one of the most painful experiences of growing up was
gradually realising that i totally disagreed with most of the values
promulgated therein. I was a very *monarchist* child, in a romantic sort
of way, with my head full of notions of dying for your king (or your
Queen - I read loads of tripe about Mary Queen of Scots as well).Alan
Breck stuart was one of my major heroes (okay, still is, I admit). But
finally there came a point when i realised it *has* to be your conscience
and your reason that decide your loyalties, not who happened to be born
in the right family at the right time and that all these books I'd loved
were IDEOLOGICALLY UNSOUND.
And I have to say (getting back to relevance) that one of the
things I really like about the Discworld is how much Terry hates the
whole institution of the monarchy and the aristocracy.It's such a comfort.
. And there
> was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
> discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
> soon enough :-)
Oh who would be a puddin'
A puddin' in a pot?
A puddin' which is put on
A fire which is hot?
Norman somebody, wasn't it? I'll look it up - it's somewhere on my shelf
at home.
Victoria
John Wilkins
| In article <4l9lc2$3...@anarchy.io.com>
| mtba...@io.com "Midnight Tree Bandit" writes:
| >
| > Wow... Swallows and Amazons... My mother made me read those when I was
| > young(er). This is the first time I have heard of them from anyone
outside my
| > family in 20 years. My mom made me read them, but I loved them. And the E
| > Nesbitt books, too (also unheard of on this side of The Pond -- I never got
| > into the Bastable Children, though).
|
| God, I was a socialist little kid -- I hated the piping-voiced
| Swallows and Amazons and I was highly suspicious of Narnia, too. They
seemed to
| be talking to other kids in that Blue Peter world where every home had
| large supplies of stick-backed plastic. The Alice books I thought were
| nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
| of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
|
| But I loved Nesbitt. Odd, that. There was an ironic tone there. And
| the Just William books...jeez, home many were there...sixty? I must have read
| all of them. I don't think they even *began* to sell in the US. And there
| was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
| discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
| soon enough :-)
I seem to recall it was an artist, self-admitted deviant and general
shitstirrer by the name of Norman Lindsay. Nevertheless it got read out in
State (read: public for UK'rs) primary schools without compunction;
perhaps they'd forgotten his rep by then.
TP: If you want a copy, just ask; they're still in print.
--
John Wilkins, Head of Communication Services, Walter and Eliza
Hall Institute of Medical Research
<http://www.wehi.edu.au/~wilkins/www.html><mailto:wil...@wehi.edu.au>
If a chicken could talk, we would not be able to understand why it
crossed the road... [apologies to Wittgenstein]
Victoria Martin
On 17 Apr 1996, Mary Novak wrote:
>
> Definitely we're in the tricky realm of the Trousers of Time and
> alternate pasts, here. Vetinari may have been an assassin, but could he
> possibly have been An Assassin? Don't we have it pretty clearly worked
> out that he _created_ the law-breaking guilds? We've visited the moment
> when he created and put the wind up the Thieve's Guild (a favorite bit of
> mine)--"I know who you are. I know where you live. I know where your
> children--my, how they've grown, isn't amazing how fast the time goes--I
> know where they play."
>
>
He definietely set up the Thieves Guild, I'm not so sure about the
Assassins. There are a couple of references, which i don't have to hand,
that suggest the Assassins' Guild has a long and glorious history. The
impression I get is that Vetinari broke with tradition by setting up
nouveau guilds, like the Thieves and the merchants. Don't the Aristos in
MAA complain about how even the plumbers have a guild now? Or maybe it
was the merchants.
On
the other leg, the Assassins seem to have a long and distinguished
> history. (I have this impression but can't cite why--just that they seem
> to have more tradition than they could possibly have acquired just over
> the length of the DW series.)
I'm sure there are references too.
> So I'm of two minds--I'm with you, I think the more we dwell on the
> day-to-day details of the Patrician (born here, raised here, trained
> there, etc.) the more prosaic he becomes. He's a character who produces
> great _moments_, but I wouldn't like it if he became as human as, say,
> Death has. It seems to me that he's handy as he is--he's got his plans,
> which don't conform with either the Good Guys or the Bad Guys, and he's
> got the power to enforce them. There's a tension when a Good Guy runs up
> against him somehow that wouldn't be there if you knew that at heart he
> was just an old softy.
Couldn't agree with you more. The last thing we want is a *good*
Vetinari. But I don't agree that knowing a bit more about him necessarily
means finding out prosaid details or, for that matter *nice* things. In
fact, the more we know, the nastier he'd probably turn out to be.
>
>
> As to whether he's been the Patrician through the series--more alternate
> pasts, here. I'm with you that the fat guy with the rings isn't
> Vetinari, but he's a prototype, much as Cutangle in Equal Rites is a
> prototype for Ridcully.
Well, I agree with that, but this is a meta-comment, about the
development of certain narrative elements. It's not an argument about the
Discworld from an internal point of view.
Victoria
Mr K D Branch
Ben of Bens <B.Hal...@ch.ic.ac.uk> writes:
>There's nothing inconsistent in Vetinari having been an assassin - don't
>forget it's also Ankh-Morpork's Eton (no doubt this helps resolve the
>tricky problem of finding occupations for younger scions of aristocratic
>families). We may assume he's let his couture lapse for several reasons
> a) He's too busy to kill people personally - so there's
> no insult
> b) He's an old bachelor with a small white dog - not a good
> mix for perfect black tailoring.
"Ankh-Morpork's Eton"?! Vetinari is hardly the sort you'd find hanging
around Eton. He's intelligent for one thing, and hardly what you'd
call aristocratic - certainly not by the standards of 90% of the
Discworld's inbred classes.
>Despite this, I wouldn't challenge him to a knife throwing competition
>and I challenge you to supply a character that would.
True, but that has nothing to do with his knife throwing skill,
rather more the fact that he would undoutedly be the one who makes
up the rules...
Kev.
Stephen Gardner
<long snip>
> >
> >Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work....
> >
> >Quick, stop me before I write again!
> >
> Imagine..... Three young good looking witches......
> well, maybe a bit good looking....
> Richard Gill
Can you imagine the tale of Nanny Ogg's courtship(s)!!!!!!
This could get the book banned all over the globe!
Stephen Gardner
Victoria Martin
On 22 Apr 1996, Mr K D Branch wrote:
> In article <317446...@ch.ic.ac.uk>,
> Ben of Bens <B.Hal...@ch.ic.ac.uk> writes:
> >There's nothing inconsistent in Vetinari having been an assassin - don't
> >forget it's also Ankh-Morpork's Eton (no doubt this helps resolve the
> >tricky problem of finding occupations for younger scions of aristocratic
> >families).
>
> "Ankh-Morpork's Eton"?! Vetinari is hardly the sort you'd find hanging
> around Eton. He's intelligent for one thing, and hardly what you'd
> call aristocratic - certainly not by the standards of 90% of the
> Discworld's inbred classes.
>
Now i come to think about it, one of the aristos in MAA calls him
'a nasty, jumped-up little man', which suggests that by birth the
Vetinaris are socially inferior. And the rulers of Ankh-Morpork have
been the great *merchant* families ever since Vimes' ancestor chopped the
head off Lorenzo the Kind. So probably not an aristocrat (and therefore
perhaps not an attender of the assassins' guild school? Sorry, just
grinding an old axe. Maybe he was sent to Ephebe to learn about
politicking? The Patrician and the Tyrant seem to share a certain
mind set).
Victoria
CyberCat
But he doesn't return to the University[1], just to the Universe.
[1] At least not in solid form, just his voice and footsteps.
--
CyberCat <m.la...@student.utwente.nl> (INTP)
CYBERCATS, said Death, CYBERCATS ARE NICE
Mail Alien <al...@lspace.org> for a Newbie introduction.
Worship Tom Brokaw, bring NBC Nightly News to viewers all over the world!
Richard Kettlewell
>> == Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
>>> == li...@york.ac.uk "LI Endell"
>>>>>> It'd be interesting to know how he came to rise to power in the
>>>>>> first place, actually.
>>>>>
>>>>> yes! yes! Yes! Do you think if we get up a petition we could
>>>>> persuade Terry to write this one???
>>>>
>>>> Damn -- I've just thought of a way of making it work.... Quick,
>>>> stop me before I write again!
>>>
>>> What about if we club together and provide you with an advance?
>>> Sounds to me like a great book waiting to be written/read :-)
>>>
>>> PS, there's no reason why Vimes or Vetinari would mention a past
>>> meeting, especially if it caused some form of embarrassment to
>>> either. Perhaps the loaded Vimes is repaying a debt of
>>> honour... Good grief, *I* have just thought of a way of making it
>>> work :-)
>>
>> Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and
>> I should be finishing the next book! :-)
>
>Wow... so *that's* how it all happens... Terry, if you're serious and
>this does happen, I strongly suspect that the confusion over alternate
>pasts will be sufficient to maintain lively discussion well into the
>next millennium. Batten down the hatches, Leo...
Aaargh. How will I ever be able to forgive myself? l-)
Owen Dunn <osd...@cam.ac.uk> has just suggested ``House of Cads'' as
a title... *laugh*
--
Richard Kettlewell
http://www.elmail.co.uk/staff/richard/ ric...@elmail.co.uk
Mr C Newman
al...@lspace.org writes:
>In article <830018...@unseen.demon.co.uk>
> Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
>> Shutupshutupshutup!!!!! I've done 2,000 words of notes already and I should
> ^^^^^ Oh oh. 5 exclamation marks!
You don't have to be damned to know this, but he said himself that was
a bad sign (F^HE), didn't he?
--
_________________-----_________________
"""""-----"""""""""""""""""""""-##()n()##-"""""""""""""""""""""-----"""""
____===**#**V**#**===____
***
Richard Kettlewell
>Maybe he was sent to Ephebe to learn about politicking? The Patrician
>and the Tyrant seem to share a certain mind set).
_Small Gods_ rather implies that there's a fairly high turnover in
Tyrants, though, with new ones being elected every five(?) year or
so.
Mr C Newman
Dick Gill <rg...@gillcomp.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Imagine..... Three young good looking witches......
>well, maybe a bit good looking....
> Richard Gill
>
Well, _metaphorically_ a fine figure of a woman.
Mark Burbidge
alt.books.pratchett, Bjorn.Bjornsson wrote:
>[2]On a similar, but totally *I* note: I definitely thing that Clark
>Kent should take on the greatest challenge know to man, marriage...
>
>
Mark Burbidge http://www.ftech.net/~monark/
Posted to abp. If in afp please edit the newsgroup line if you're
deviating from relevance.
Keith Willoughby
> Narnia and one of the most painful experiences of growing up was
> gradually realising that i totally disagreed with most of the values
> promulgated therein. I was a very *monarchist* child, in a romantic sort
> of way, with my head full of notions of dying for your king (or your
> Queen - I read loads of tripe about Mary Queen of Scots as well).Alan
> Breck stuart was one of my major heroes (okay, still is, I admit). But
> finally there came a point when i realised it *has* to be your conscience
> and your reason that decide your loyalties, not who happened to be born
> in the right family at the right time and that all these books I'd loved
> were IDEOLOGICALLY UNSOUND.
An ideology (?) that differs from your own, you mean?
--
Keith Willoughby, Swanse, Wales
"My job is very boring, I'm an office clerk"
The Bellinghman
(Sten Thaning) wrote:
>Martin O'Nions <Mar...@catch22.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Rincewind was acting as the Librarian's assistant in Mort (remember the
>>scene where Albert returns to the University?) Since in Sourcery Rincewind
>>ends up in the Dungeon Dimensions, and definitely doesn't return to the
>>University in solid form until Interesting Times, by which point Ridcully
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I do not have the book in my immediate surroundings at the present
>moment, but didn't Rincewind return in Faust^H^H^H^H^HEric? I have a
>distinct memory that that was an important part of the plot.
Indeed. However, as Martin stated, Rincewind didn't "return to the
Univerity in solid form". That wasn't till IT.
Alan
--
Alan Bellingham: al...@doughnut.demon.co.uk
Martin O'Nions
sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
> And I have to say (getting back to relevance) that one of the
> things I really like about the Discworld is how much Terry hates the
> whole institution of the monarchy and the aristocracy.It's such a comfort.
>
We all get different impressions. I never really got the feeling that
Terry hated them, just that like Vetinari and Carrot he likes things
to work efficiently. If a Monarch insists on buggering things up because
s/he's a Monarch, then that isn't efficient. Similarly, if they do
nothing but be a drain on the public purse, then that's not efficient.
If the aristo's don't demand that they be respected or supported by
right of birth then no problem. It's purely incidental that if they
are prepared to work on that basis, they don't benefit from being
aristocratic...
I've always had the impression that *anyone* who represents the triumph
of ideology over reason is a 'target' - consider the revolutionaries in
Interesting Times.
--
Martin O'Nions [ENTP] Used your LART yet today? mar...@catch22.demon.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________
I never shall forget my shame / To find my son had forged my name
If he'd had any thought for others / He might at least have forged his mother's
(Harry Graham - Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes
Gabriel.Krabbe
>
> Terry Pratchett <Ter...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The point is that at that moment the Patrician knew very well that he had
> >a much better weapon that a sword. He had a loaded Vimes.
> >
>
> Ok, who left a loaded Vimes laying around??? We're just lucky it didn't
> fall into the wrong hands...
>
I'd guess we're lucky it _did_ actually fall into the wrong hands.
Hm. ONe-line followup. Guess I'll snip the .sig.
Gabriel
Theo Asma
sbr...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>> Stephen Briggs said that he is seeing his publishers about a new
>> companion. Hurrah! I think it will be updated with some errors removed.
s> Er.. this is not *imminent* -- in fact, it's definitely on the back
s> burner at the moment.
What a relief! You had me worried there for a moment, being a bit
under-developed in the money-department right now, thankyouverymuch.
Bye _____
heo
----------------------------------------------------------------
th...@dialis.xs4all.nl | Denekamp
m.t....@student.utwente.nl | The Netherlands
----------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Judd
> The Alice books I thought were
> nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows -- they've survived out
> of inertia, Walt Disney and picture books, not because they were good.
"nasty evil little fictions full of unpleasant shadows" - that's EXACTLY
why they've survived.
> But I loved Nesbitt. Odd, that. There was an ironic tone there. And
> the Just William books...jeez, home many were there...sixty? I must have read
> all of them. I don't think they even *began* to sell in the US. And there
> was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
> discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
> soon enough :-)
The late great Norman Lindsay, artist, author, and all around humorous person.
stephen judd
--
"I think you've said the opposite of | Stephen Judd, School of Education,
what you mean. Assuming that is the | University of Waikato, New Zealand.
case, I must disagree, strongly." | <finger://ste...@poet.soe.waikato.ac.nz>
(Found on sci.lang) | for my PGP key.
Mike
Where do you get sticky-backed-plastic from anyway? I've never seen any on
sale anywhere. It must be a home counties thing. I'm sure all my relatives
suffered major trauma from not having fancy Kellogg^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Cornflake
packets and bog rolls for presents. Bring back John Noakes!
Mike
Ben Waggoner
: Disney had a way of ruining any story. Still does. Note the wild
: inaccuracies in "Pocahontas" (and as one who lives in the county her tribe
: comes from, I've heard plenty about them). Now I suppose every kid will grow
: up thinking she married John Smith... But then, Shakespeare had that effect
: on perception of history, doesn't he? How many believe Richard had the little
: princes killed because of the play?
I've seen ads for previews of Disney's next big animated extravaganza. . .
_The Hunchback of Notre-Dame_. The book is one of the cruelest things I've
read -- I mean, good people and bad people alike die horrible deaths, and
there's gallows and molten lead and flogging and torture. I shudder to
think what Disney's going to have to do to get the storyline down to its
standard level and make it end happily. Eeeuurrggh.
--
Ben Waggoner
Damian Glenny
: This depressed me, so Ilooked up Patrician and it said that the ruling
: Patrician throughout the series is Lord Vetinari. This relieved me
: because it is inaccurate (the Patrician in TCOM has a double chin and
: lots of rings and therefore is clearly not Vetinari.
: Victoria
It depends on which version you're reading. The original TCOM novel had the
ring-laden and chin-doubled Patrician, true, but the (inferior to my
mind) graphic novel had Vetinari in all his weasel-like-ness. But, then
again, I seem to remember Broadman looking slightly fatter than normal -
I really can't recall it though, as someone stole my copy of TCOM. Sob.
-damian (dami...@sans.vuw.ac.nz)
David Green
reckoned that:
>was an Australian book called The Magic Pudding which was also a great
>discovery. I can't remember who wrote it, but I expect I'll be told
>soon enough :-)
Norman Lindsay of course. 8-)
--
David Green | Tel: +61 3 9827-6283 | da...@legion.apana.org.au
Melbourne, Australia| Fax: +61 3 9827-5876 | (NeXTMail & MIME accepted)
PGP key from: pgp-pub...@sw.oz.au
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What opinions?
Victoria Martin
On 23 Apr 1996, Damian Glenny wrote:
>
> It depends on which version you're reading. The original TCOM novel had the
> ring-laden and chin-doubled Patrician, true, but the (inferior to my
> mind) graphic novel had Vetinari in all his weasel-like-ness. But, then
> again, I seem to remember Broadman looking slightly fatter than normal -
> I really can't recall it though, as someone stole my copy of TCOM. Sob.
>
The graphic novel is surely inferior to anybody's mind? The Mort version
was surprisingly good (I have a strong prejudice against transferring
books to any other medium because I prefer the images I have in my own
head, but the Mort graphic novel not only had excellent drawings, it
handled the story well). The TCOM comic book (she said disparagingly) is
badly drawn, lacks all those little visual details that make the great
comics such a pleasure, and mucks around with the plot in a bad way.
Cohen looks like Gollum, Rincewind appears to be running around in his
nightshirt and bedcap and the patrician (who clearly *is* meant to be
Vetinari) looks like a well-scrubbed vampire.
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Keith Willoughby wrote:
> >But finally there came a point when i realised it *has* to be your
conscience
> > and your reason that decide your loyalties, not who happened to be born
> > in the right family at the right time and that all these books I'd loved
> > were IDEOLOGICALLY UNSOUND.
>
> An ideology (?) that differs from your own, you mean?
Of course. Any ideology is only unsound insofar as it differs from mine.
Mine are all thoroughly sound. Though I daresay HM the Queen, for one,
would disagree.
Victoria
Victoria Martin
On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Martin O'Nions wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960422...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk "Victoria Martin" writes:
>
> > And I have to say (getting back to relevance) that one of the
> > things I really like about the Discworld is how much Terry hates the
> > whole institution of the monarchy and the aristocracy.It's such a comfort.
> >
>
> If the aristo's don't demand that they be respected or supported by
> right of birth then no problem. It's purely incidental that if they
> are prepared to work on that basis, they don't benefit from being
> aristocratic...
>
Hmmm. Surely this is the definition of aristocracy, no? That their rights
and privileges are all inherited, ie. 'supported by right of birth'?
Otherwise we speak of a meritocracy,such as, for instance, the Chinese
civil servise.
> I've always had the impression that *anyone* who represents the triumph
> of ideology over reason is a 'target' - consider the revolutionaries in
> Interesting Times.
>
Ye, but the *venom* is reserved for those who don't regard their position
as being based on an ideology, but on the natural world order. You cannot
tell me that the arostos in MAA have anything going for them at all? lady
Sybil is, of course, a very honourable exception, but then Terry is
always willing to regard individuals as honourable exceptions.
Victoria
Damn, I wish I could type.
Mary Novak
No, I don't think he *would* win a
>knife-throwing competition. He never carries a weapon openly and I like
>to think he carries no secret weapons either. his weapons are his brain
>and his tongue (re. the dragon - 'If it can talk, it can negotiate. If it
>can negotiate, I've got it by the - whatever dragons' have'). Giving him
>the back-up of an amzing skill with throwing knives just weakens those
>achievements and diminsihes his uniqueness. I reckon he'd be crap in
>mortal combat. Just as ankh-Morpork wins battles by cheating and prefers
>top sell arms to the enemy, so the patrician would always have to talk or
>think his way out of a tight spot, but not *fight*.
>
>Victoria
You know what this puts me in mind of...I just read Treasure Island for
the first time, inspired by my enjoyment of The Muppets Treasure Island
(big ol' Muppet fan, moi) and I was really struck by the character Long
John Silver. I'd always assumed he was a bloodthirsty rotten pirate, and
was surprised he was so avuncular. Then I assumed the Henson associates
had toned him down for the kiddie movie, but no, he's just the same in
the book. Anyway, there's an excellent scene (both in movie and book)
where he's just been given a death sentence via The Black Spot and
manages to _talk_ his way out of it, pointing out, f'rinstance, that the
blasphemers put their Black Spot on a torn-out page of the Bible. I was
blown away--nowadays, you wouldn't find many storytellers and even fewer
moviemakers who'd be willing to get to a climax and not have the
character shoot his way out. So if we accept that the Patrician doesn't
need to carry weapons (and I *like* that idea, as well as the idea that
the Patrician was armed with a loaded Vimes) he's linked in a way to a
long line of strangely charismatic/controlling characters...can anyone
think of some others?
Mary Novak
mno...@rlem.tamu.edu
Martin O'Nions
>
>On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Martin O'Nions wrote:
>
>> If the aristo's don't demand that they be respected or supported by
>> right of birth then no problem. It's purely incidental that if they
>> are prepared to work on that basis, they don't benefit from being
>> aristocratic...
>>
>Hmmm. Surely this is the definition of aristocracy, no? That their rights
>and privileges are all inherited, ie. 'supported by right of birth'?
>Otherwise we speak of a meritocracy,such as, for instance, the Chinese
>civil servise.
>
ironic, but I lacked the talent to communicate this.
>> I've always had the impression that *anyone* who represents the triumph
>> of ideology over reason is a 'target' - consider the revolutionaries in
>> Interesting Times.
>
>Ye, but the *venom* is reserved for those who don't regard their position
>as being based on an ideology, but on the natural world order. You cannot
>tell me that the arostos in MAA have anything going for them at all? lady
>Sybil is, of course, a very honourable exception, but then Terry is
>always willing to regard individuals as honourable exceptions.
>
We possibly differ in our usage of the word 'ideology'. In any case, most
of those I have known who held the idea that the people should rise up and
overthrow the oppressor have argued that this was because communism is the
"natural world order". Terrorist or Freedom Fighter, it's only points of
view.
I can't help but to think (possibly wrongly) that Terry has far more
sympathy with someone like the Patrician than with either the aristo's
or the revolutionaries. Or even someone like Vimes, who suffers from
the belief that an individual's system of values might be inherently
'right' in some way.
Lady Ramkin is certainly an exception by the standards of many of her
contemporaries, but not necessarily by those of her and their ancestors.
The old aristocracy was built out of battle and leadership; historically,
being the son of a warlord might give you an initially strong position,
but you'd still have to fight to keep it once your father's protection
was gone. The aristocrats of MAA represent what the breed develops into
without the prevailing conditions of permanent struggle which shaped it.
Oh, and as regards honourable exceptions - how about *Lord* Vetinari
himself?
--
Martin O'Nions SMS Datacare Ltd mar...@pdc.nhs.gov.uk
Opinions contained herein may differ from those held by my employer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm stubborn as those garbage bags / that time cannot decay"
(Leonard Cohen - Democracy)