[I]"Percentage of the gross" - preferably whilst he has something in his mouth...

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Trent Hill (Mountaineer)

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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How much does Pterry actually see of the price of each book?
From his view of publishers in M!M I wouldn't think to much...
The first Discworld books cost ~$12 Australian and the latest
costs ~$15 Australian.
I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
lining Pterry's pockets...

Mountaineer

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doc.

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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In <76nkqn$kp6$1...@library.lspace.org>, Trent Hill (Mountaineer) shared
with us the following wisdom:

> I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
> lining Pterry's pockets...
>
HMMH_Y_G?

doc.

Brett Taylor

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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posibly only as little as a dollar or so once you take out the following

tax customer pays on book
shop markup
distributors markup
publishers profit
advertising
production costs


I`m not going to try to break it down into cash amounts but even if the net
ammount PTerry sees
is still not all his as he would have

agents fees
lawyers fees
accountants fees
personal tax to pay

before he saw any real money in his wallet
makes you heart blead still if your shifting millions of units
then even if you only see pence per unit it still adds up to a great big
pile>>>>

Brett
--
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Miq

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Trent Hill (Mountaineer)
<mount...@riverland.net.au> wrote

>How much does Pterry actually see of the price of each book?
>From his view of publishers in M!M I wouldn't think to much...
>The first Discworld books cost ~$12 Australian and the latest
>costs ~$15 Australian.

The author is paid a percentage of the publisher's receipts.

Of the cover price of a book, something between 40 and 50% goes to
the bookseller (if the book's discounted, this is the share that
gets cut - which is why small booksellers tend to dislike this
practice). Distribution costs are slight, so publishers' receipts
may be as high as 50% of the cover price.

In my industry sector, which is quite different from Terry's, the
usual deal for the author is something like 15% of publisher's net
receipts. So that's about 7% of the (undiscounted) price.

This applies to expensive non-fiction books with a small print
run. Larger print runs mean lower unit production and
distribution costs, so the author's share may be larger - on the
other hand, prices and receipts are much lower, so the author's
share may be smaller...

You'll have noticed that books by authors that are out of
copyright can be had for half the price of books by living
authors. I'd guess this has something to do with the publisher
having to pay royalties, but more to do with the publisher wanting
to milk a monopoly on a writer's work while it lasts.

I'm not going to try to guess Terry's cut: that's nobody's
business but his.

--
Miq - afpiance to the generous MEG {*squish*}, discreet Supermouse {*hug*}
and the undiscounted Heather {*wink*}

Jeroen Metselaar

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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Trent Hill (Mountaineer) heeft geschreven in bericht
<76nkqn$kp6$1...@library.lspace.org>...

>How much does Pterry actually see of the price of each book?
>From his view of publishers in M!M I wouldn't think to much...
>The first Discworld books cost ~$12 Australian and the latest
>costs ~$15 Australian.
>I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
>lining Pterry's pockets...
>
>Mountaineer


Why care, he gets a weekend of free beer every two years!
:-)
--
Jeroen 'Poor Ickle Flower' Metselaar
The one and only true fiancee of Spirit
aka LabRat, Owner of the Signed Condoms

Nathan Fenenga Yospe

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Jan 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/3/99
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Jeroen Metselaar (J.Met...@wxs.nl) (Labrat) wrote:

: Trent Hill (Mountaineer) heeft geschreven in bericht

: >I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
: >lining Pterry's pockets...

: >Mountaineer

As someone else said, his business, and none of our own. I know I've not
been paying about $37 US per book just to line PTerry's pockets... maybe
a little, as I do feel he deserves as much of the take as he can get, as
it *is* his creative genius selling them... but mainly, I buy them cause
I *want* them. Not charity. I'm a little curious... I've gotten a couple
of nibbles from publishers on manuscripts of my own, and I'd like a tiny
hint at what is reasonable in a contract, for a first novel and for more
established writers... but PTerry's way too out of my league to compare.

: Why care, he gets a weekend of free beer every two years!

Heck... he can have a weekend of free beer _anytime_ he shows up here! I
would gladly empty a brewery. ;)
--

Nathan F. Yospe - Born in the year of the tiger, riding it forever after
University of Hawaii at Manoa, Dept of Physics, second year senior (joy)
(On Call) Associate Algorithm Developer, Textron Systems Corp, Maui Ops.
yospe#hawaii.edu http://www2.hawaii.edu/~yospe Non commercial email only

Gideon Hallett

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Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
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On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:58:13 +1030, "Trent Hill (Mountaineer)"
<mount...@riverland.net.au> was a jolly decent type and shared
with us:

>How much does Pterry actually see of the price of each book?
>From his view of publishers in M!M I wouldn't think to much...
>The first Discworld books cost ~$12 Australian and the latest
>costs ~$15 Australian.

>I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
>lining Pterry's pockets...
>

Umm, no offense, but I find that a little icky. It's not the done
thing to inquire too deeply of that sort of thing on a public
channel; you could mail Pterry and he *might* consent to tell you
(I personally wouldn't, tbh), but it seems a little off to bring
it up like this, even though I know you don't mean any harm by
it.

Of course, it's not my place to speak for someone else u.s.w. and
I'm probably doing nothing more than displaying my English
background, but...

Gideon.


--
(((( | Gideon_...@3Com.com.========================|
o__))))) | - Bringing permed '70s-retro hedgehogs to the =|
__ \'((((( | common people since he got bored one afternoon.=|


Brett Taylor

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Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
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Nathan Fenenga Yospe wrote in message
<76p066$5...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...

|. I'm a little curious... I've gotten a couple of nibbles
from publishers on manuscripts of my own, and I'd like a
tiny
|hint at what is reasonable in a contract, for a first novel
and for more
|established writers... but PTerry's way too out of my
league to compare.


<snipped for relavance>

cant offer guidlines

make shure you read any contract with a large magnifying
glass as they can and will try to screw you if you dont feel
that you know enough get a good contract lawyer yes I know
it will cost but could will save you a lot down the road
this applies to both publisher and agent.....

final advice make shure you own the copywrite dont sign it
over to a third party you will pay them dearly and
becareful of advances you have effectivly to pay them
back!!!!!

Brett
--
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apfiance of the delightful debplod
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
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On 3 Jan 1999 23:57:58 GMT, yo...@Hawaii.Edu (Nathan Fenenga Yospe) wrote:

>I've gotten a couple
>of nibbles from publishers on manuscripts of my own, and I'd like a tiny
>hint at what is reasonable in a contract, for a first novel and for more
>established writers...

Easy enough. First piece of advice, though: the moment a publisher actually
says to you, "I want to buy your book," thank them politely, hang up (or if
you're in the bar at a convention, finish your drink and run away. No, come to
think of it, take the drink with you and run away), and start calling agents.
Only the busiest agent would refuse to negotiate a sale for you when you
already have a publisher on hand who wants to buy your book. (And maybe the
busiest agent wouldn't be one you would want when you're just getting started,
anyway.)

Second piece of advice: don't talk money to publishers. <python>Don't...you
know...just DON'T. </python>

What your average contract looks like...well, something like this:

(a) It sets out what you get as an advance (short for "advance against
royalties"). For a beginning writer of a work of, well, science fiction or
fantasy (better stick to what I know here), this would probably be somewhere in
the low to middle four figures. (Though mileage may vary on this, as markets
differ: the UK market is different from the US one, and from others around the
world. Some publishers pay better than others. Etc.)

(b) It sets out the levels of royalties. The royalty is a percentage of the
sales of the book, usually paid starting a year after the book appears on the
shelves (though the statement for that payment usually appears three to six
months later, and every six months after that: and this timing is also
determined in the contract. One of my publishers, a most unusual case,
actually renders royalty statements once a *month* after a book has earned out.
More on this shortly.)

Your royalty usually comes in two pieces: the base or starting royalty (say
8%) and the "rollover" royalty (say 10%: the amount you are paid if sales of
your book go over a certain number of copies. Usually 100,000 or something
like that.) So when describing a book deal to you in shorthand, your agent
might say to you that you've been offered "three thousand pounds against eight
and ten".

But note well here. You do not start getting royalty checks until the
publisher has entirely recouped the cost of your advance *from your 8% share*.
This is "earning out". *After* that, you get your 8% in those six-monthly
checks. -- Or most of it: there is also something publishers do called
"withholding against returns", meaning even though they have sold your books to
booksellers, they expect to get a certain number of them back unsold, and
they're withholding a certain amount of money to cover themselves against those
losses. (Let's not think any more about that for the moment, it's too
depressing...since naughty publishers will sometimes withhold entirely too
much, and there are ways to stop them, but it's a nuisance. Argh.) There is
also an annoying practice called "joint accounting" in which, if you've sold a
publisher, say, three books in a contract, you don't get any royalties on any
of them until they've *all* earned out. Argh twice.

...Anyway, those are a couple of the major things you might expect to see in a
contract (along with much else.) A note or two: as you gain experience, and
your books sell reasonably, and if your agent is any good at getting you decent
deals, you can expect your advances to slowly get larger, and your royalty
percentages to increase somewhat. But there are special cases in which these
conditions may not obtain, specifically "work for hire". Royalties offered for
licensed works are typically *much* lower than for original work. Sometimes 1%
and 2%, maybe up to 2% and 4% if you're lucky. Some publishers try to pay *no*
royalties on licensed work, only advances. Some will try to make up for this
by larger advances. Some won't, and are satisfied to let you take it or leave
it. You have to decide whether this is something you can live with or not.
Licensed work does expose your work to larger audiences, but there's no
absolute certainty that those audiences will then (or ever) be interested in
anything else you've written.

Those are the basics at the money end. Much else will also be in the contract:
sometimes clauses indemnifying the publisher from any liability if anyone reads
your book and does something ludicrous because of what they read in it, and
sticking *you* with all the liability: sometimes clauses requiring you to
participate in certain kinds of publicity work, and stipulating what that
participation looks like: sometimes confidentality clauses so tough that they
make the Official Secrets Act look like wet Kleenex: sometimes clauses put
there by your agent requiring the publisher to guarantee certain kinds of
publicity for the book: all kinds of things.

I seriously hope that you get to experience these things for yourself.
Meanwhile, the first piece of advice stands. If any of those nibbles go solid,
if the hook sets in hard, *call an agent*.

best! -- Diane


Peter Morwood & Diane Duane / The Owl Springs Partnership
Co. Wicklow, Ireland / http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~owls/index2.html
ICQ # 21654840

Sarah Wittman

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Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
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I would like to suggest that on Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:57:16 GMT,

Gideon_...@3Com.com (Gideon Hallett) did write:
>On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:58:13 +1030, "Trent Hill (Mountaineer)"
><mount...@riverland.net.au> was a jolly decent type and shared
>with us:
>>I'd be interested to see just how much of that goes into
>>lining Pterry's pockets...
>Umm, no offense, but I find that a little icky.

hmm.. I don't know if it's "icky"..

a way to waste a few bills, yes. a way to weigh down one's pants if
one is experimenting with a new variety of chain mail, yes..

personally, I can think of *much* better things to do with a few bills
than use them as lining for any article of clothing..

besides, there is a limit to how many pockets one could possibly
require, and if one used *all* their money to line the pockets, the
pockets could become so full so as to prevent them being used as
pockets, which would be annoying to say the least. (esp if you did it
in small denominations)

Sarah
[] 'twould be very important if one *was* to line their pockets with
cash to make sure it wasn't forged, 'cause then you'd start getting
ink stains and stuff..
--
"I'm so perplexed / what was I thinking? /
what will I think of next? / where can I hide?"
_Untouchable Face_ Ani Difranco

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
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In article <36918f3e...@news.iol.ie>, Peter Morwood & Diane Duane
<owls...@gpo.iol.ie> writes
>
[snip]

What can I add to this? I generally get from 10% to 'er, more than 10%,
but certainly less that 20%!', depending on the age of the contract;
things get complicated, too, on translations and overseas rights, where
the size of the cake is smaller. What is nice (now) is that many of the
early books had real small advances, so they earned out on day one --
that means that Mort, for example, still hands me a happy wad of cash
twice a year.


>What your average contract looks like...well, something like this:
>
>(a) It sets out what you get as an advance (short for "advance against
>royalties"). For a beginning writer of a work of, well, science fiction or
>fantasy (better stick to what I know here), this would probably be somewhere in
>the low to middle four figures. (Though mileage may vary on this, as markets
>differ: the UK market is different from the US one, and from others around the
>world. Some publishers pay better than others. Etc.)
>

That's about right. You'll only get more if it's a 'real' book full of
angst and you've got chums in the chattering classes:-) Forget the
stuff you read in the papers -- a typical advance is *well* under 10k.

>(b) It sets out the levels of royalties. The royalty is a percentage of the
>sales of the book, usually paid starting a year after the book appears on the
>shelves (though the statement for that payment usually appears three to six
>months later, and every six months after that: and this timing is also
>determined in the contract. One of my publishers, a most unusual case,
>actually renders royalty statements once a *month* after a book has earned out.
>More on this shortly.)

I've never heard of monthly royalties!


>
>But note well here. You do not start getting royalty checks until the
>publisher has entirely recouped the cost of your advance *from your 8% share*.
>This is "earning out". *After* that, you get your 8% in those six-monthly
>checks. -- Or most of it: there is also something publishers do called
>"withholding against returns", meaning even though they have sold your books to
>booksellers, they expect to get a certain number of them back unsold, and
>they're withholding a certain amount of money to cover themselves against those
>losses.
> (Let's not think any more about that for the moment, it's too
>depressing...since naughty publishers will sometimes withhold entirely
>too much, and there are ways to stop them, but it's a nuisance. Argh.)

It's apparently viewed as a legal way to delay part of the due
payment...

>There is also an annoying practice called "joint accounting" in which,
>if you've sold a publisher, say, three books in a contract, you don't
>get any royalties on any of them until they've *all* earned out. Argh
>twice.

An agent will avoid this like the plague. It offers altogether too many
nasty loopholes.

>
>I seriously hope that you get to experience these things for yourself.
>Meanwhile, the first piece of advice stands. If any of those nibbles go solid,
>if the hook sets in hard, *call an agent*.

Right. It sort of sticks in the craw -- you've made the sale, and now
some guy just saunters in, chats to the publisher, and takes 10% or
more. A fair number of UK publishers now have Minimum Terms Agreements,
usually negotiated with the Society of Authors, which tend to be okay.
But an agent should be able to improve on them (not so much up front,
perhaps, but in the fine detail like translation rights; these are
something the happy newbie won't worry about, until one day when she
learns that she's big in Japan and is getting a 2% royalty...)
--
Terry Pratchett

Colin Rosenthal

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Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
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On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:51:28 +0000,
Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <36918f3e...@news.iol.ie>, Peter Morwood & Diane Duane
><owls...@gpo.iol.ie> writes
>>
>[snip]
>
>What can I add to this? I generally get from 10% to 'er, more than 10%,
>but certainly less that 20%!', depending on the age of the contract;
>things get complicated, too, on translations and overseas rights, where
>the size of the cake is smaller. What is nice (now) is that many of the
>early books had real small advances, so they earned out on day one --
>that means that Mort, for example, still hands me a happy wad of cash
>twice a year.

When Unwin published the Lord of the Rings they gave Tolkien a "profit
sharing" arrangement whereby he got nothing at all until the book went
into profit and thereafter 50% of the profits. This turned out rather well
for JRRT!

--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo

Brett Dixon

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Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
to
In article <JiKX2FAQ...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> What can I add to this? I generally get from 10% to 'er, more than 10%,
> but certainly less that 20%!', depending on the age of the contract;
> things get complicated, too, on translations and overseas rights, where
> the size of the cake is smaller. What is nice (now) is that many of the
> early books had real small advances, so they earned out on day one --
> that means that Mort, for example, still hands me a happy wad of cash
> twice a year.

None of us would complain about some legal, reprinted, copies of Mort
showing up in US bookstores, either.

Not sure why I'm complaining about this, it's not as if you print and
distribute them yourself, or AFPers woud be lurking in stores on delivery
days to see you come in, dressed as Santa[1] with a bag of books on your
shoulders.
<snip useful stuff about writing contracts for writers who write and how
to do it right possibly involving rites but hopefully not restrivting
anyones rights.[2]>

[1] We DO have odd imaginations, don't we?
[2] And tend to get carried away a bit, too.

--
Brett Dixon | AFPiance to the lovely Ańejo.
Knight of the Wibble | (Who I truly believe is female.)
| AFPiance to both KkatD and KkatD.
UU Tech Support Staff | (Duplicate is twice the fun!)

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
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In article <bdixon-0601...@130.5.2.106>, Brett Dixon
<bdi...@pct.edu> writes

>
>None of us would complain about some legal, reprinted, copies of Mort
>showing up in US bookstores, either.

That should he happening before too long...
--
Terry Pratchett

SiouxZeeee

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Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
to
Himself states:


>
><bdi...@pct.edu> writes
>>
>>None of us would complain about some legal, reprinted, copies of Mort
>>showing up in US bookstores, either.
>
>That should he happening before too long...
>--
>Terry Pratchett
>

HALLELUJAH!

Susan

(Please forgive me for shouting and a one-liner to boot, but, my copy of Mort
- which I believe might be the only one in the entire state of Florida -
literally fell apart from being borrowed so much. It really is held together
with duct tape and a rubber band. Is there a contest for most-worn books, kind
of like the dirty sneakers contests?)


Ross Smith

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
to
Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:
>
> Easy enough. First piece of advice, though: the moment a publisher actually
> says to you, "I want to buy your book," thank them politely, hang up (or if
> you're in the bar at a convention, finish your drink and run away. No, come to
> think of it, take the drink with you and run away), and start calling agents.
> Only the busiest agent would refuse to negotiate a sale for you when you
> already have a publisher on hand who wants to buy your book.

Er ... hesitant though I am to even hint at arguing with a Real Writer,
but is this really true? I've seen quite a few writers give advice to
the aspiring in various books and newsgroups, and all the others have
been unanimous that no reputable agent would give you the time of day
until after you'd sold (not just had the publisher say "yes" to) at
least two or three books. (Maybe it's a difference between British and
American practice? British agents are more friendly and/or desperate?)

--
Ross Smith ....................................... Auckland, New Zealand
<mailto:r-s...@ihug.co.nz> ........ <http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~r-smith/>
"Oh boy! Violence! Can't wait! Hey, sex is everywhere, but good
violence is hard to find!" -- Michael Thompson

Gid Holyoake

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
to
In article <36945B...@ihug.co.nz>, Ross Smith generously decided to
share with us:

> Diane Duane wrote:
> >
> > Easy enough. First piece of advice, though: the moment a publisher actually
> > says to you, "I want to buy your book," thank them politely, hang up (or if
> > you're in the bar at a convention, finish your drink and run away. No, come to
> > think of it, take the drink with you and run away), and start calling agents.
> > Only the busiest agent would refuse to negotiate a sale for you when you
> > already have a publisher on hand who wants to buy your book.
>

> Er ... hesitant though I am to even hint at arguing with a Real Writer,
> but is this really true? I've seen quite a few writers give advice to
> the aspiring in various books and newsgroups, and all the others have
> been unanimous that no reputable agent would give you the time of day
> until after you'd sold (not just had the publisher say "yes" to) at
> least two or three books. (Maybe it's a difference between British and
> American practice? British agents are more friendly and/or desperate?)

Ohh.. you can listen to what Diane says.. not only is she a very nice
young lady, she is quite experienced when it comes to the finer points
of publishing etc.. ask PTerry.. he didn't disagree with what she said..
and he should know as well..

Gid

--
The Most Noble and Exalted Peculiar , Harem Master to Veiled Concubines
Guardian of the Sacred !!!!!'s , Defender of the Temple of AFPdoration
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/ for The Irrelevant Page! MJBC

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:00:54 +1200, Ross Smith <r-s...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>... start calling agents.


>> Only the busiest agent would refuse to negotiate a sale for you when you
>> already have a publisher on hand who wants to buy your book.
>

>Er ... hesitant though I am to even hint at arguing with a Real Writer,
>but is this really true? I've seen quite a few writers give advice to
>the aspiring in various books and newsgroups, and all the others have
>been unanimous that no reputable agent would give you the time of day
>until after you'd sold (not just had the publisher say "yes" to) at
>least two or three books. (Maybe it's a difference between British and
>American practice? British agents are more friendly and/or desperate?)

Mmmm...I'm not sure what to make of this idea. My own agent(s) agree that if
someone comes to an agent and says "Such and such a publisher says they want to
buy my book", any reasonable agent whose business isn't already so full that
they just *can't* take on another client should be happy enough to make a call
to the publisher, find out if the story is true, and then (if the agent is
acceptable to the writer) start negotiating the deal. Though there are, I'm
sure, agents who won't take on "first time" writers simply because they prefer
not to, either because they think it's too much work, or for prestige reasons
("I only handle best-sellers..."), where they think that the news that they
were handling a beginner might adversely affect their "clout". That's a
personal thing, and, I would guess, the exception rather than the rule.

I don't know where those other writers are getting their info/advice. I guess
that mileage may vary...but the above is what my agents tell me.

Now, that said, what I would *not* bother an agent with is handling short-story
work (and even now I don't bother my agents with it: the contracts for short
stories are so straightforward that even I can understand them, as a rule -- if
I have any questions I'll fax a copy through to the agent and ask for
information/advice, that's all. Also, the payments from short stories are
generally small enough that it wouldn't pay an agent to handle them anyhow).
If all I did was short stories, I wouldn't bother trying to get an agent until
the day I sold a novel...mostly because of the complexity of the contracts.
Even now, after a number of years of looking at the things, they can still make
my brains hurt. (Though there are occasional moments of amusement/wonder. One
contract I signed within the last couple of years speaks of the control of one
type of rights "in this universe and all others which may be discovered for all
time". :) Talk about covering your rear end...!)

Best -- Diane

Brett Dixon

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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In article <TcvxpMAH...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <bdixon-0601...@130.5.2.106>, Brett Dixon

> <bdi...@pct.edu> writes
> >
> >None of us would complain about some legal, reprinted, copies of Mort
> >showing up in US bookstores, either.
>
> That should he happening before too long...

Horah! Hooray! Oh frabulous joy!

Still waiting to see you at Borders in a Santa suit, though.

--
Brett Dixon | AFPiance to the lovely Añejo.

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
to
>
>Ohh.. you can listen to what Diane says.. not only is she a very nice
>young lady, she is quite experienced when it comes to the finer points
>of publishing etc.. ask PTerry.. he didn't disagree with what she said..
>and he should know as well..

There is probably a difference between US and UK practice, but (speaking
at a one-time chairman of the Society of Authors) I'd be surprised if
you wouldn't at least get a friendly hearing from any agent if you had
an acceptance letter in your hand. Of course, other factors come into
play -- the amount of work the agency has, the *type* of work the agency
prefers to handle, etc -- but I think they'd talk to you; if you are
unpublished, a fiction author, and not a well-known thesp or media chum,
then your chances of getting an agent from cold are small.

Advt: in the UK, the Society of Authors can be very useful -- and
they're fairly used to getting calls from non-members on the lines of
'help, I've just had a novel accepted, what do I do now?' They
negotiated the MTAs I mentioned earlier, and anyone accepting one of
those, while not maybe getting the very best deal they could, won't get
a *bad* deal.

Things seem to be a lot tougher and nastier in the US. The 'work for
hire' deals that Diane mentioned appear to be spreading; they *may* make
sense for a professional author, who knows the ropes and reckons that $X
for a few months work on another spin-off in the 'Californians with
Different-Shaped Noses In Space' universe is a good deal, but I don't
think a newbie should go near them.
--
Terry Pratchett

Mark Firth

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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Ah-ha - a real life published Trek author! Congratulations Diane, I really
enjoyed Intellivore. Encore, encore!

Nathan Fenenga Yospe

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane (owls...@gpo.iol.ie) wrote:
: On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:00:54 +1200, Ross Smith <r-s...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

: >... start calling agents.


: >> Only the busiest agent would refuse to negotiate a sale for you when you
: >> already have a publisher on hand who wants to buy your book.

: >Er ... hesitant though I am to even hint at arguing with a Real Writer,


: >but is this really true? I've seen quite a few writers give advice to

: Mmmm...I'm not sure what to make of this idea. My own agent(s) agree that if


: someone comes to an agent and says "Such and such a publisher says they want to
: buy my book", any reasonable agent whose business isn't already so full that
: they just *can't* take on another client should be happy enough to make a call
: to the publisher, find out if the story is true, and then (if the agent is
: acceptable to the writer) start negotiating the deal. Though there are, I'm

Thank you, by the way, for the advice... hopefully I'll have opportunity
to use it soon...

: I don't know where those other writers are getting their info/advice. I guess


: that mileage may vary...but the above is what my agents tell me.

: Now, that said, what I would *not* bother an agent with is handling short-story
: work (and even now I don't bother my agents with it: the contracts for short
: stories are so straightforward that even I can understand them, as a rule -- if
: I have any questions I'll fax a copy through to the agent and ask for
: information/advice, that's all. Also, the payments from short stories are
: generally small enough that it wouldn't pay an agent to handle them anyhow).

True on all counts. I've sold shorts to a couple of minor magazines, and
have three in the slushpile at Analog, it seems... one of these days, if
luck holds, I'll get one of those in print. Payoffs really aren't large,
but they're decent as supplemental income for a college student. ;) Both
of the shorts I sold came with seven year rights... meaning I would lose
the right to resell the stories for seven years. I don't know if this is
standard...

Nathan Fenenga Yospe

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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Mark Firth (nospa...@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
: Ah-ha - a real life published Trek author! Congratulations Diane, I really
: enjoyed Intellivore. Encore, encore!

: >Peter Morwood & Diane Duane / The Owl Springs Partnership


: >Co. Wicklow, Ireland / http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~owls/index2.html
: >ICQ # 21654840

She's also written several childrens' fantasy novels I read as a kid and
quite enjoyed, and several adult fantasy novels that I've just started a
reread on... (sorry, Diane, but I *am* that young. I was five when I got
into the Wizardry series...)

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:16:44 -0000, "Mark Firth" <nospa...@dircon.co.uk>
wrote:

>Ah-ha - a real life published Trek author! Congratulations Diane, I really
>enjoyed Intellivore. Encore, encore!

(bemused smile) If things go the way they seem to be doing, I may be writing a
Trek short story shortly for an anthology that's in the works. That's about as
much encore as is planned for the moment.

But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a
book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
straw. :)

Best! -- Diane

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:37:35 +1200, Ross Smith <r-s...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>I'm reminded of the publisher's disclaimer I saw on one edition of Harry
>Harrison's _A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!_. It started with the usual
>"all characters ficitious, no resemblance etc etc" stuff, but then
>added, "In this universe, that is. As for parallel universes, we make no
>promises."

Yup. Well, now they've started trying to tie down our relationships with those
parallels. Jeez, can you imagine what the lawsuits would look like? (clutches
her head) Argh. Best! -- Diane

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:05:07 +0000, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Advt: in the UK, the Society of Authors can be very useful -- and
>they're fairly used to getting calls from non-members on the lines of
>'help, I've just had a novel accepted, what do I do now?'

These people sound terrific...Gor bless'em, I say.

>...another spin-off in the 'Californians with
>Different-Shaped Noses In Space' universe...

(snort) I like this name *much* better than "The Franchise".

>...I don't


>think a newbie should go near them.

Complete agreement on this. Best! D.

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/7/99
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On 7 Jan 1999 19:15:51 GMT, yo...@Hawaii.Edu (Nathan Fenenga Yospe) wrote:

>She's also written several childrens' fantasy novels I read as a kid and
>quite enjoyed, and several adult fantasy novels that I've just started a
>reread on... (sorry, Diane, but I *am* that young. I was five when I got
>into the Wizardry series...)

Five. *Five.*

(more head-clutching, but of the milder sort) There are only three things
these days that make me stop and think "Gee, I'm getting older". One is
looking at the wrinkles on my knuckles, which didn't used to be there. The
second is noticing the strange cracking noises the joints of my busiest typing
fingers have occasionally started making. The third is getting letters and
e-mail from people saying "I read your Wizard books when I was in my teens and
now I'm starting my children on them..." This feels *strange*.

But there is a flip side to it. I sometimes find myself wondering whether the
Wizard books, written between fifteen and, mmm, eight? years ago, are still
germane to the experience of, say, nine-year-olds. What really helps is
getting carefully scrawled letters from nine-year-olds that start "I hav read
all your books and I think Nita and Kit are cool..." And then I feel either
eleven or eighteen again. So it all averages out.

best! -- D.

Ross Smith

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Jan 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/8/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:
>
> [ lots of stuff ]

Thanks.

> (Though there are occasional moments of amusement/wonder. One
> contract I signed within the last couple of years speaks of the control of one
> type of rights "in this universe and all others which may be discovered for all
> time". :) Talk about covering your rear end...!)

I'm reminded of the publisher's disclaimer I saw on one edition of Harry


Harrison's _A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!_. It started with the usual
"all characters ficitious, no resemblance etc etc" stuff, but then
added, "In this universe, that is. As for parallel universes, we make no
promises."

--

Matthew du Plessis

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Jan 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/8/99
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The reading is taken from the first book of Saint Nathan Fenenga Yospe
the apoplectic, chapter 7a, beginning at the first verse:

> True on all counts. I've sold shorts to a couple of minor magazines, and
> have three in the slushpile at Analog, it seems... one of these days, if
> luck holds, I'll get one of those in print. Payoffs really aren't large,
> but they're decent as supplemental income for a college student. ;) Both
> of the shorts I sold came with seven year rights... meaning I would lose
> the right to resell the stories for seven years. I don't know if this is
> standard...
> --
>

Here in crimurbia (have you read the latest TIME yet?) I'm due to join
the fast-track to publication. There is a tradition at the newspaper I
work at for the younger columnists to put together collections of their
stuff and publish them in a paperback form. This added exposure usually
assures the authors enough support should they wish to publish a novel or
something different, at least. Trouble is, until recently these
publications have mainly been political protests/biographies (where were
_you_ while they were building the wall?) cry the forsaken wasteland type
stuff. My predecessor wrote a surfing manual, though, but even that's
considered more kosher than the children's fantasy I'm busy with.
Besides, whoever heard of a South African fantasy author?
We'll see...

Matthew

Irina Rempt

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Jan 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/8/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:
> On 7 Jan 1999 19:15:51 GMT, yo...@Hawaii.Edu (Nathan Fenenga Yospe) wrote:
>
>>She's also written several childrens' fantasy novels I read as a kid and
>>quite enjoyed, and several adult fantasy novels that I've just started a
>>reread on... (sorry, Diane, but I *am* that young. I was five when I got
>>into the Wizardry series...)
>
> Five. *Five.*

I was 39. Does that adjust your statistics a bit?

I'd heard of the Wizard books and always wanted to read them, but
didn't have the chance to pick one up until I went to a role-playing
convention in Canada and some of us got lost in a bookshop and there it
was. Someone beat me to it, but I paid him half the price and he
actually sent it to me when he'd finished; this is a guy who never
keeps a book after he's read it once <boggle>.

I desperately want to read the rest, but they're simply not available
in the Netherlands; I had one on order from the American Bookshop and
it never arrived. Much as I want to support bookshops, I'm afraid it's
going to be Amazon for me...

> The third is getting letters and
> e-mail from people saying "I read your Wizard books when I was in my teens and
> now I'm starting my children on them..." This feels *strange*.

Have you ever read a newspaper article from someone you used to babysit
for when you were in high school? I have. It's another thing that makes
you feel your age.

> But there is a flip side to it. I sometimes find myself wondering whether the
> Wizard books, written between fifteen and, mmm, eight? years ago, are still
> germane to the experience of, say, nine-year-olds. What really helps is
> getting carefully scrawled letters from nine-year-olds that start "I hav read
> all your books and I think Nita and Kit are cool..." And then I feel either
> eleven or eighteen again. So it all averages out.

I can remember being nine, but that's more than thirty years ago, and
the world was so different ... I'll try it on my best friend's
daughter, who is almost fourteen. I don't know any nine-year-olds who
can read English - perhaps *I* should have a stab at translating it,
but it's so New Yorkish that *that* may alienate Dutch kids more than
any wizardry involved. (The theory being that if you're reading another
language it's easier to imagine a different country; it works that way
for me).

Irina

--
ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl AFPAunt to Jennifer
AFP Code 1.1 ALn d s-:+ a+ U+ R F++ h+ P++ OS+:+ C++ M- pp- L+ c B+ Cn
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Paul Mc Auley

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Jan 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/8/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote on Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:52:00 GMT:

| But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a
| book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
| straw. :)

Hmmm, isn't the reality bad enough? For some reason the above puts me in
mind of a certain software company.
Paul
--
--- Paul Mc Auley <pmca...@iol.ie>
-- Datagram for Mongo! Datagram for Mongo!

Ross Smith

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Jan 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/9/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:
>
> But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a
> book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
> straw. :)

_Red Dwarf_ beat you to it ("Psirens") :-)

Phoenix

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Jan 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/9/99
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Stephen Booth wrote:
> And how about Starship Troopers? OK the film is fairly recent
> but hasn't the book been around for quite a while?

IIRC the book didn't mention brain sucking bugs. Just brain bugs. The
movie took it to a literal 'brainsucker', though...

Phoenix

--
Afpfiance to jumping Rosy http://users.telekabel.nl/eagle
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Lindsay Endell

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Jan 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/9/99
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Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:

> On 7 Jan 1999 19:15:51 GMT, yo...@Hawaii.Edu (Nathan Fenenga Yospe) wrote:
>
> >She's also written several childrens' fantasy novels I read as a kid and
> >quite enjoyed, and several adult fantasy novels that I've just started a
> >reread on... (sorry, Diane, but I *am* that young. I was five when I got
> >into the Wizardry series...)
>
> Five. *Five.*
>

> (more head-clutching, but of the milder sort) There are only three things
> these days that make me stop and think "Gee, I'm getting older". One is
> looking at the wrinkles on my knuckles, which didn't used to be there. The
> second is noticing the strange cracking noises the joints of my busiest typing

> fingers have occasionally started making. The third is getting letters and


> e-mail from people saying "I read your Wizard books when I was in my teens and
> now I'm starting my children on them..." This feels *strange*.

Another sign - the slow but inexorable development of "liver spots" on
the backs of the hands...



> But there is a flip side to it. I sometimes find myself wondering whether the
> Wizard books, written between fifteen and, mmm, eight? years ago, are still
> germane to the experience of, say, nine-year-olds. What really helps is
> getting carefully scrawled letters from nine-year-olds that start "I hav read
> all your books and I think Nita and Kit are cool..." And then I feel either
> eleven or eighteen again. So it all averages out.
>

Well, while I may wish your books were around when I was that young,
what would be even better would be if I could find them *now*, whether
categorised as "children", "young adults" or "fantasy". I found _Book
of Night with Moon_ on ppint's table at DW2 and am still looking for
the predecessors...

Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/ - Issue 1 available now

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/9/99
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On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:07:45 +0000, pmca...@iol.ie (Paul Mc Auley) wrote:

>Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote on Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:52:00 GMT:
>

>| But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a
>| book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
>| straw. :)
>

>Hmmm, isn't the reality bad enough? For some reason the above puts me in
>mind of a certain software company.

(snort) I'm thinking about that myself tonight. I'm trying to beat Peter's
new modem into working, and the process is not being helped by the fact that
Uncle Bill's damn software seems bound and determined not to allow me to speak
directly to the modem using AT commands. Grrrrrrrr. (kick, whack, stomp)
Bloody 98, grumble grumble mutter...

Best! D.

Peter Morwood & Diane Duane

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Jan 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/9/99
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On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:37:41 GMT, go...@nospam.demon.co.uk (Lindsay Endell)
wrote:


>Another sign - the slow but inexorable development of "liver spots" on
>the backs of the hands...

I've got one small spot...that's it, so far. (But the image of it getting out
of hand, like the one in Python, sometimes comes up...).

>Well, while I may wish your books were around when I was that young,
>what would be even better would be if I could find them *now*, whether
>categorised as "children", "young adults" or "fantasy". I found _Book
>of Night with Moon_ on ppint's table at DW2 and am still looking for
>the predecessors...

Argh. (sigh) Amazon is your best bet...they seem well-supplied with the
Harcourt paperbacks. Best! D.

Meg, the Magpie

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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Okay, so on Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:21:16 GMT, stephe...@bigfoot.com
(Stephen Booth) said :

>And how about Starship Troopers? OK the film is fairly recent
>but hasn't the book been around for quite a while?
>

The book didn't mention *how* the Bugs killed people. The notion of
sucking their brains out was something thought up for the <fx: spit>
film.

Meg the Magpie (who isn't going to get started on that again)
--
Meg the Magpie
email: mag...@megabitch.tm


Nathan Fenenga Yospe

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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Stephen Booth (stephe...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
: On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:02:40 +1200, Ross Smith
: <r-s...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

: >Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote:

: >> But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a


: >> book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
: >> straw. :)

: >_Red Dwarf_ beat you to it ("Psirens") :-)

: And how about Starship Troopers? OK the film is fairly recent


: but hasn't the book been around for quite a while?

OLF: Yes, but that doesn't mean anything. All they share is a few names.

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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In article <36981457....@news.can.interact.net.au>, Meg, the
Magpie <mag...@megabitch.tm> writes

>>
>The book didn't mention *how* the Bugs killed people. The notion of
>sucking their brains out was something thought up for the <fx: spit>
>film.
>
>Meg the Magpie (who isn't going to get started on that again)

Oh, *do*. We got the video. A completely charmless, rubbishy movie in
every respect, making 'Star Wars' look like hard sf. Allegedly it was
'ironic', so that the author could peddle crap to the mall rats while
maintaining some boulevard-cred. The only reason to sit through it was
in case that horrible girl with the tip-tilted little piggy nose got
scragged. I apologise to my eyes for making them watch it.
--
Terry Pratchett

Leo Breebaart

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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go...@nospam.demon.co.uk (Lindsay Endell) writes:

> what would be even better would be if I could find [Diane Duane's
> Wizardry books] *now*, whether categorised as "children", "young adults"


> or "fantasy". I found _Book of Night with Moon_ on ppint's table at DW2
> and am still looking for the predecessors...

Just last month I bought the first three paperbacks in the Wizardry series
(_So You Want To Be A Wizard_, _Deep Wizardry_, _High Wizardry__) on-line
from Book Stacks <http://www.books.com/>. They're only about $4,25 each,
and if you use the trick of having them shipped by surface mail (which
means they can take up to eight weeks to reach Europe), the P&P is not that
hair-raising either.

<PLUG>

I cannot recommend Book Stacks highly enough. They were one of the first
companies to do business over the Internet (look at their domain name, and
you'll realize just how early these birds were!), long before the WWW even
existed, and you had to use a telnet interface to access them. I have been
successfully placing dozens of orders for books with them since 1993, and
have had only occasional problems (one shipment went Walkabout, twice they
sent me the wrong books by mistake), all of which were courteously and
immediately resolved (i.e. in all three cases they shipped me a free
replacement order and told me to just keep the wrong books or donate them
to a friend or library).

Their current WWW interface is clunky and awkward and slow, their catalogue
is not nearly as big or as up-to-date as Amazon's, and they recently
increased their shipping costs to higher levels than I would have liked --
but I still would not dream of looking elsewhere first if I want to buy
books over the net.

And in contrast to what some people have been experiencing with Amazon, I
have never, in all these years, received a single UCE from them.

Your mileage wrt all of this may, of course, vary.

</PLUG>


<PLUG>

As far as the Wizardry books go, they are, in my opinion, well worth it.
_So You Want To Be A Wizard_ is an exciting rite-of-passage adventure story
that really begs to be turned into a decent movie or children's TV series;
_Deep Wizardry_ is *exceptionally* good, with serious themes and events
that most adults would probably be surprised (even shocked?) to find in a
"mere" children's book; and although after that I found _High Wizardry_ a
wee bit disappointing (too dense and verbose, and at least for me some
suspension-of-disbelief problems with both the plot and the character
development), it is nevertheless highly enjoyable.

Your mileage wrt all of this may, of course, vary.

</PLUG>

--
Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org>

Leo Barium

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
to
A person (well really Paul Mc Auley <pmca...@iol.ie>) came up to me and
said:

>Peter Morwood & Diane Duane wrote on Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:52:00 GMT:
>
>| But thanks anyway, and glad you liked that one. I always wanted to write a
>| book about a monster that comes along and sucks people's brains out with a
>| straw. :)
>
>Hmmm, isn't the reality bad enough? For some reason the above puts me in
>mind of a certain software company.

Uurggh! Ouch! My stomach is really hurting at the moment thanks to a
certain psychopathic person with an IQ one six-thousandth [1] of Holly's
making me do circuit training. Laughing is not something I should be
doing at the moment...

Why is it that any jokes about M*******t are always funny?

Leo Barium

[1] Is that right?
--
'I want to thank you for putting me back in my snail shell' - TMBG**
Official Mate of PThomas' Official Entourage (not another one!)**Official
Welsh Geek (and proud of it)**ICQ broken ATM**L...@barasi.demon.co.uk**
**http://expage.com/page/afplace2**FFith thrid OTM**No relations**

Shim

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...

You *bought* the video?

[/any semblance of respect for PTerry's intelligence]

Still, a good few of the very annoying people did get killed, so that wasn't
too bad.

Wasn't as funny as Titanic, though.

--
-Shim, liked the port-starboard bit.
RTC Political Officer, affiliate of the SPoKOS, SEC and RFC, CUT supporter.
AFPiance to Jennifer G.
If you must... replace 'cheapskate' with 'freeserve' to contact me.

Phoenix

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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Terry Pratchett wrote:
> Oh, *do*. We got the video. A completely charmless, rubbishy movie in
> every respect, making 'Star Wars' look like hard sf. Allegedly it was
> 'ironic', so that the author could peddle crap to the mall rats while
> maintaining some boulevard-cred. The only reason to sit through it was
> in case that horrible girl with the tip-tilted little piggy nose got
> scragged. I apologise to my eyes for making them watch it.

Hm. I actually enjoyed watching it. Then again, I only remember the
special fx. That's usually what I go for in an SF movie.

The bugs were great. Good acting talents. I wonder how the union managed
to get so many.

Brett Taylor

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
to

Leo Barium wrote in message ...

|
|Why is it that any jokes about M*******t are always funny?
|
|Leo Barium
|

rveminds me of the joke when william gates III dies and goes
to heaven/hell. still won`t post it here if anyone wants it
mail me

Brett.
--
apfiance of the delightful debplod
A tresure happy in the weyr of Mad Purple Dragon
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Alex Ridge

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Jan 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/10/99
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Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...
>In article <36981457....@news.can.interact.net.au>, Meg, the
>Magpie <mag...@megabitch.tm> writes
>>>
>>The book didn't mention *how* the Bugs killed people. The notion of
>>sucking their brains out was something thought up for the <fx: spit>
>>film.
>>
>>Meg the Magpie (who isn't going to get started on that again)
>
>Oh, *do*. We got the video. A completely charmless, rubbishy movie in
>every respect, making 'Star Wars' look like hard sf. Allegedly it was
>'ironic', so that the author could peddle crap to the mall rats while
>maintaining some boulevard-cred. The only reason to sit through it was
>in case that horrible girl with the tip-tilted little piggy nose got
>scragged. I apologise to my eyes for making them watch it.


Oh, I disagree[1]. I thought it was a great movie. I could switch my
brain off for the whole duration and there were some superb explosions.

Okay, now if you want to compare it to the book, it's laughable. If
you want to compare it with... erm... anything at all (except Titanic
of course) then it's pants. Still, there were some cool explosions
and the special effects were good.

Alex

[1] Apart from Little Miss Piggy Nose. Don't see what he saw in her...

John Wilkins

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <wyWDzHAI...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

|In article <36981457....@news.can.interact.net.au>, Meg, the
|Magpie <mag...@megabitch.tm> writes
|>>
|>The book didn't mention *how* the Bugs killed people. The notion of
|>sucking their brains out was something thought up for the <fx: spit>
|>film.
|>
|>Meg the Magpie (who isn't going to get started on that again)
|
|Oh, *do*. We got the video. A completely charmless, rubbishy movie in
|every respect, making 'Star Wars' look like hard sf. Allegedly it was
|'ironic', so that the author could peddle crap to the mall rats while
|maintaining some boulevard-cred. The only reason to sit through it was
|in case that horrible girl with the tip-tilted little piggy nose got
|scragged. I apologise to my eyes for making them watch it.

Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was watching an SS
propaganda movie, or what they would have made had they access to SGI?

--
John Wilkins, Head, Graphic Production, The Walter and Eliza Hall Institute
of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia
<mailto:wil...@WEHI.EDU.AU><http://www.wehi.edu.au/~wilkins>
I do not make errors; reality fails to live up to my expectations

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <77age5$q5k$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Shim <sh...@shimgray.cheap
skate.co.uk> writes

>
>
>You *bought* the video?
>
>[/any semblance of respect for PTerry's intelligence]
>

Sure. Videos are cheap. Around here, a video works out at not a lot
more expensive than three decent adults seats at a cinema, bearing in
mind you don't have to add in the cost of replacing your car radio:-)
Got Titanic, too, was is great if you watch the effects, listen to the
great soundtrack and ignore all the bits with Katie in.
--
Terry Pratchett

Matthew du Plessis

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
The reading is taken from the first book of Saint Terry Pratchett the
apoplectic, chapter 7a, beginning at the first verse:

[regarding Starship Troopers]


> Oh, *do*. We got the video. A completely charmless, rubbishy movie in
> every respect, making 'Star Wars' look like hard sf. Allegedly it was
> 'ironic', so that the author could peddle crap to the mall rats while
> maintaining some boulevard-cred. The only reason to sit through it was
> in case that horrible girl with the tip-tilted little piggy nose got
> scragged. I apologise to my eyes for making them watch it.

Gee.
I enjoyed it quite a bit, myself. I don't normally like films with
violence, though. I don't know, I still think it has "cred" -which the
mall rats wouldn't appreciate in the first. I've justified my
appreciation of ST to a number of people, including my film lecturer, but
few are willing to admit to the existence of any 'alleged' irony or poke
at the right wing and basic xenophobia in overdrive. I read the book. I
thought it even worse than Ayn Rand's little spiels, in defending and
promoting a political philosophy. All it was was a glorification of
Military tyranny and right wing totalitarianism. Why didn't he just set
it in WW2 and make the aliens Jews instead? Verhoeven gets my vote.

Matthew


Matthew du Plessis

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
The reading is taken from the first book of Saint John Wilkins the
apoplectic, chapter 7a, beginning at the first verse:

>

> Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was watching an SS
> propaganda movie,

That was the whole point.
*Sigh*

Matthew

Phoenix

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
John Wilkins wrote:
> Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was watching an SS
> propaganda movie, or what they would have made had they access to SGI?

You've never watched that interview with Paul Verhoeven, did you? He
said he put that in for two reasons:
1. he thought the SS uniforms were the coolest *ever*[1];
2. it would make it clear to the audience that the regime was something
they would not like to live in.

Talking of uniforms, have you ever watched Star Wars? Don't tell me that
the uniforms worn by the officers of the Empire don't look like SS
uniforms. You never see people complein about *them* now, do you?

Phoenix

[1] Well, I never said he was sane, did I? He *is* Dutch, after all...

Leo Breebaart

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
matt...@global.co.za (Matthew du Plessis) writes:

> [regarding Starship Troopers]


> I read the book. I thought it even worse than Ayn Rand's little spiels,
> in defending and promoting a political philosophy. All it was was a
> glorification of Military tyranny and right wing totalitarianism. Why
> didn't he just set it in WW2 and make the aliens Jews instead?

Look.

Far be it from me to invoke the Rite of Rico and summon the ever-floating
Heinlein Usenet Flamewars to alt.fan.pratchett, but can we perhaps be
a *little* bit less offensively judgmental here?

Yeah, there are many non-PC, even downright worrying aspects to Heinlein's
personal philosophies, and certainly some of the criticism that "Starship
Troopers" in particular has received over the years is justified. But your
blanket condemnation of the book as nothing but a "glorification" of "right
wing totalitarianism" strikes me as too one-sided, and the implication that
Heinlein wrote "Troopers" as a thinly disguised anti-semitic tract (that
*is* what you're saying, yes?) is insane enough to make me wonder if we are
actually talking about the same book or writer here. If you've got *any*
proof of your assertion, feel free to supply it -- but please use e-mail,
since I do not think a.f.p. is the right forum for such a discussion.

Meanwhile I urge everyone to take neither Matthew's nor my word for
anything, and check out Heinlein for yourself, should you not be familiar
with his work yet. "Starship Troopers" may be a bad place to start, though,
as are some of his other well-known novels ("Stranger in a Strange Land"
and "Time Enough for Love"). I'd recommend "The Door Into Summer" or "The
Puppet Masters", or perhaps one of his juveniles, such as "Red Planet",
"The Star Beast", or, especially, "Have Space Suit -- Will Travel".

--
Leo Breebaart <l...@lspace.org>

Tom Vavasour

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
in reply to matt...@global.co.za (Matthew du Plessis)
> I've justified my
>appreciation of ST to a number of people, including my film lecturer, but
>few are willing to admit to the existence of any 'alleged' irony or poke
>at the right wing and basic xenophobia in overdrive.


Yahoo I'm not the only one. Every time I've told someone that I
thought the film was satire they've looked at me like I had a screw
loose.

...Tom


They can't break you if you don't have a spine
-Wally from Dilbert

Brett Taylor

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to

John Wilkins wrote in message ...

|Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was
watching an SS
|propaganda movie, or what they would have made had they
access to SGI?
|


IDB that this was the directors intentions or something
allong that particular style

Brett Dixon

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <3699C564...@telekabel.nl>, Phoenix <ea...@telekabel.nl> wrote:

> John Wilkins wrote:
> > Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was watching an SS
> > propaganda movie, or what they would have made had they access to SGI?
>

> You've never watched that interview with Paul Verhoeven, did you? He
> said he put that in for two reasons:
> 1. he thought the SS uniforms were the coolest *ever*[1];
> 2. it would make it clear to the audience that the regime was something
> they would not like to live in.
>
> Talking of uniforms, have you ever watched Star Wars? Don't tell me that
> the uniforms worn by the officers of the Empire don't look like SS
> uniforms. You never see people complein about *them* now, do you?

I definitely agree BOTH were supposed to be reminicsent of SS (Does this
count as a thread killer? We are, kinda, comparing someone to nazis? Is it
done yet?) but it was very intentional on both counts, I think. In SW it
was 'OK' because, after all, it was the Bad Guys. ST, I feel it was
somewhat ironic, and, in a way, meant to look at how propaganda is used on
a country involved in a war by it's own Government.

B5 Reference: On the Lurker's guide JMS discusses some posters done for
the Nightwatch organization, a group of civilians recruited to rat on
their neighbors for un-earthlike activities. The poseters were 'inspired
by'[1] WW2 recruitment posters or similar, IIRC.

Discworld Reference: Jingo, anyone?

[1] Ripped off from.

--
Brett Dixon | AFPiance to the lovely Ańejo.
Knight of the Wibble | (Who I truly believe is female.)
| AFPiance to both KkatD and KkatD.
UU Tech Support Staff | (Duplicate is twice the fun!)

in...@fdhoekstra.nl

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
Leo Barium wrote:
> Uurggh! Ouch! My stomach is really hurting at the moment thanks to a
> certain psychopathic person with an IQ one six-thousandth of Holly's

> making me do circuit training. Laughing is not something I should be
> doing at the moment...
>
> Why is it that any jokes about M*******t are always funny?

Because they're true. Jokes with a painful foundation in
reality are always funnier due to the nervous-listener
effect: it might happen to you, but it hasn't yet...

Richard

ian_b...@my-dejanews.com

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <a9xjBPA3...@unseen.demon.co.uk>,
> <snip>

Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Sure. Videos are cheap. Around here, a video works out at not a lot
> more expensive than three decent adults seats at a cinema, bearing in
> mind you don't have to add in the cost of replacing your car radio:-)
> Got Titanic, too, was is great if you watch the effects, listen to the
> great soundtrack and ignore all the bits with Katie in.
> --

Ok while i agree that Starship Troopers is cack, it can be enjoyed for its
action, just turn off your good taste gene ( which im sure the scientist will
soon locate, they keep finding more and more ). It also is laughable which
is as good reason as any to buy a film. Haven't watched titanic yet, been
told by people its very good in its secound half when the ship sinks.. you
can skip the first half.

By the way did anyone watch braveheart last week (UK). I've seen it god
knows how many times and its still bloody good. Although the beeb cut out
most of the gory bits.

While im on the subject of films, the fuinniest one ive ever seen is Friday.
Although its not to everyones taste, at least hire it out its hilarious. Its
a bit old now and stars Ice Cube and that bloke who co-stars with jackie chan
in rush hour, i forget his name now.

Anyway,

thats my 5 euros worth

Ian.

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

ian_b...@my-dejanews.com

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to

Stewart Tolhurst

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
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Chris Horry wrote in message <369a1...@glitch.nildram.co.uk>...
<snip>

>I enjoyed it too (admittedly I've not read the book yet), the acting
>was abysmal and it had a horribly weak plot. But it was totally mindless
>and I like that in a movie :)

But you don't like Titanic!?!

<BG>

Stewart
--
(The Coven of AFPhaghags: Olivia, Heather, Lindz, Grymma, Carol & Añejo)
Use "reply to" to email me. WWW: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~musf0012/
AFPCode 1.1a AC$/Mus-UK d s+:s+ a- UP+ R+ F+ h- P-- OSD: C+++ M--- pp L+ c B
Cn PT Pu59- 5-- !X MT e++>+++ r++ y+ end

in...@fdhoekstra.nl

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
Chris Horry wrote:
>
> Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> stated:
> : Got Titanic, too, was is great if you watch the effects,

> : listen to the great soundtrack and ignore all the bits
> : with Katie in.
>
> Do you want to be an honourary member the the Guild of
> Non-Titanic seers Pterry? :-)

Speaking of which, _did_ you (CJH) ever get to watch it
with that friend of yours, or did he repent?

Richard

Shim

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to

Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...
>In article <77age5$q5k$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Shim <sh...@shimgray.cheap
>skate.co.uk> writes
>>
>>
>>You *bought* the video?
>>
>>[/any semblance of respect for PTerry's intelligence]
>>
>
>Sure. Videos are cheap. Around here, a video works out at not a lot
>more expensive than three decent adults seats at a cinema, bearing in
>mind you don't have to add in the cost of replacing your car radio:-)

Only ever lost a car radio when it was... er... parked outside the house.
Bit embarrasing, that.

>Got Titanic, too, was is great if you watch the effects, listen to the
>great soundtrack and ignore all the bits with Katie in.


Or the bits with Mr. (Ms?) DiCaprio in.

Still, the minor details were quite funny.

Examples:
1/ Yelling "Hard to Starboard" and turning port, or vice versa;
2/ Making a hideously loud noise scraping the 'berg, but not actually having
damaged paintwork on the side.

And don't even get me *started* on the travesty that was the First Officer's
character - artistic licence is one thing, but making a lying, cheating,
corrupt b*stard out of a fine, dedicated & honourable man is unpardonable.

--
-Shim, was the only one in the cinema laughing during that film.


RTC Political Officer, affiliate of the SPoKOS, SEC and RFC, CUT supporter.

Riotously happy to be the AFPiance of Jennifer G.

Hugh Sider

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <77d6fp$m8p$1...@library.lspace.org>,

>Chris Horry wrote in message <369a1...@glitch.nildram.co.uk>...
><snip>
>
>>I enjoyed it too (admittedly I've not read the book yet), the acting
>>was abysmal and it had a horribly weak plot. But it was totally mindless
>>and I like that in a movie :)

I have to chime in here.

Starship Troopers is the worst adaptation of a novel since "Beast
Master". "Dune" was better.

If it weren't for Highlander II, (the sickening) I'd give it worst movie
ever.

ObPratchett:

I get people hooked on Discworld by asking them to read one short scene.
The line quoted in the subject has worked more than once.
--
Hugh Sider r...@netcom.com
This is not a work account, so why do I need a disclaimer?

Contents sold by weight, not by volume. Some settling may
occur during shipment.

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <77d7m5$p3o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ian_bishop@my-
dejanews.com writes

>By the way did anyone watch braveheart last week (UK). I've seen it god
>knows how many times and its still bloody good. Although the beeb cut out
>most of the gory bits.

'They can ta'k our live but they can never ta'k our freedom!'

Now *there's* a battle cry not designed by a clear thinker...
--
Terry Pratchett

Terry Pratchett

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
In article <3699C564...@telekabel.nl>, Phoenix
<ea...@telekabel.nl> writes

>John Wilkins wrote:
>> Did you or anyone else get the strong impression one was watching an SS
>> propaganda movie, or what they would have made had they access to SGI?
>
>You've never watched that interview with Paul Verhoeven, did you? He
>said he put that in for two reasons:
>1. he thought the SS uniforms were the coolest *ever*[1];
>2. it would make it clear to the audience that the regime was something
>they would not like to live in.

The man is a dangerous fool. A lot of his audience don't remember the
Vietnamese War and are probably hazy about who was fighting who in WWII.
Besides, apart from the uniforms, the world seem peachy keen --
everything shiny and new, and nice young folk having fun...


>
>Talking of uniforms, have you ever watched Star Wars? Don't tell me that
>the uniforms worn by the officers of the Empire don't look like SS
>uniforms. You never see people complein about *them* now, do you?

Yeah, but *they* were the bad guys.

--
Terry Pratchett

Paul E. Jamison

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99
to
Chris Horry wrote:
>
> Do you want to be an honourary member the the Guild of Non-Titanic seers
> Pterry? :-)
>
Oooh, is there such an organization? Count me in on that! Never saw
the flick, never bought the video. I *almost* bought the vid as a
Christmas gift for my SO, but got over it in time.

I can just see myself in a theatre with a bunch of my odd friends (and
aren't they the best kind of friends to have?), watching Titanic while
in *just* the right mood. We'd laugh at all the wrong places and get
several dirty -- albeit weepy-eyed -- looks.

Paul E. Jamison, Esq.

--

"BABYLON 5! A five-mile long cement mixer of truth, pouring out the
Concrete of Nice-Nice in a long, grey ribbon into the future, to form a
***SIDE WALK OF JUSTICE!!***"
- The Tick on Babylon 5

Richard Eney

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Jan 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/11/99