[R] Random questions - Binky and kid's books
Michael Miller
safe side...
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I'm reading through Mort for about the fourth time now (damn, I need a
new job) and every time I've run across this line it's raised question
marks over my head. Mort is about to walk into the pub and he's
thinking about Binky. "Binky was a real horse - the blisters of the
shovel handle on Mort's hands were a testimony to that - and compared
to the others he looked more real than ever. More solid. More horsey.
Slightly larger than life. In fact, Mort was on the verge of making an
important deduction, and it is unfortunate that he was distracted..."
So... what's the deduction? I'm not deducing it, that's for sure. :D
I'm sure I'm going to kick myself when I finally figure it out.
Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
Discworld book and the children's books? If you make Tiffany 18 or so
you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this and any other
Discworld book as far as style and content.
Jeroen G. Metselaar
Spoiler space..
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damn, I forgot the 7. Again
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Shoot, not again!
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> In fact, Mort was on the verge of making an
> important deduction, and it is unfortunate that he was distracted..."
>
> So... what's the deduction? I'm not deducing it, that's for sure. :D
> I'm sure I'm going to kick myself when I finally figure it out.
What he, and you, could have realized is that Death, and those that copied a
few of Deaths properties is more real, more _there_ then anything else.
That is why both Death and Mort can walk though walls. Not because Death and
Mort are not solid but because from their point of view the wall is nothing
but a temparory foglike object.
Had Mort realised this he would've known how to walk through walls: by
simply ignoring them.
> Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
> Discworld book and the children's books? If you make Tiffany 18 or so
> you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this and any other
> Discworld book as far as style and content.
You answered your own question. It is a childeren's book because it is about
childeren.
It is a very good childeren's book because it is not about some twee stupid
chit of a not-thinking-but-pretty-blue-eyed-blonde girl. Or about a freak
on a wizard school.
--
Jeroen G. Metselaar
The Labrat!
Terry Pratchett
Miller <black...@techie.com> writes
>Discworld book and the children's books? If you make Tiffany 18 or so
>you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this and any other
>Discworld book as far as style and content.
And the problem as you see it is...?
--
Terry Pratchett
Forrest
> Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
> Discworld book and the children's books?
Objective: chapters, length.
Subjective: the settings on the Glee and Lesson knobs.
Michael Miller
No problem at all, actually. :D I just remember the really bad books
'for kids' I read in school and quite frankly I'd have killed to find
something like this in our school library. I'm happy to know that at
least one author doesn't think kids are unversally stupid and can
barely comprehend the fact that the guy doesn't like green eggs and
ham (not even in a box with a fox... and even I'd like them there).
The normal crap (IMO, of course) like Where the Red Fern Grows and
Bridge to Terabithia bored the hell out of me. It was just so much
whiny-ass garbage (again, IMO). There's only so much death that a 9
year old can take, you know? ;) I don't really know what I was
expecting when I started in on WFM. Maybe a much tamer, more 'kid
friendly' Discworld. The only difference that I could find was that
there wasn't any off-colour humour. Certainly no interestingly shaped
vegetables. So, on behalf of all young people everywhere... thanks for
not wussing out. ;)
Wait, I can think of a problem. There's bound to be someone somewhere
that looks at the cover, sees that it's a 'kids book' and puts it down
thinking it's going to be filled with people running around yelling
'Oh my whiskers!' all the time. ;)
Len Oil
> > Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
> > Discworld book and the children's books? If you make Tiffany 18 or so
> > you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this and any other
> > Discworld book as far as style and content.
>
> You answered your own question. It is a childeren's book because it is
about
> childeren.
>
> It is a very good childeren's book because it is not about some twee
stupid
> chit of a not-thinking-but-pretty-blue-eyed-blonde girl. Or about a freak
> on a wizard school.
Or a group of kids who entertain themselves in a rural landscape (populated
entirely by persons of the lower and/or criminal classes) and who may
safely assume that all the people they meet will offer them meals and never
consider their presence on their land as trespass or even a nuisance.
(Unless, of course, the person is Up to No Good TM, in which case they will
at most tie them up and give them a reasonable chance to escape and raise
the alarm, rather than set upon a course of events which almost immediately
requires the use of the phrase "Dispose of their bodies, what's left of
them" to be used...)
[1] Unless you object to knowing her name and her age. And given the
number of emails I receive unsolicited[2] which almost entirely consists of
this information for J Random Imaginary Girl...
[2] An ironic word, under the circumstances...
Terry Pratchett
<gmaus...@hotmail.com> writes>6132147....@posting.google.com>...
>
>> Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
>> Discworld book and the children's books?
>
>Objective: chapters, length.
>Subjective: the settings on the Glee and Lesson knobs.
Financial: the advance is about one fifth it would have been had TWFM
been an adult book. No kidding.
--
Terry Pratchett
MP
Financial 2: the cost is about £5 less than the current adult books.
Good...
MP
--
'"So we can't talk about hunting, sex, cards, or the Ploughman's
Arms. What are we going to talk about then? The weather?"'
- Family Bites, Lisa Williams
Visit http://www.falboroughhall.co.uk for more on Family Bites!
Michael Miller
Ouch. Do they at least make up for it on the back end?
Robert Carnegie
Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
Does everyone here think that they know what an advance is?
I sort of know. It isn't all that you get?
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
--
"AUTO SPARES (ROYSTON) would like to give our hearty
congratulation to Geoffrey Reid, on cocking up fifty years
with the company." - Royston Crow
Michael Miller
> In article <7+9bfLAC...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry
> Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
> >In article <81fddf88.03061...@posting.google.com>,
> >Forrest
> ><gmaus...@hotmail.com> writes
> >>black...@techie.com (Michael Miller) wrote in message
> news:<9e18274.030
> >>6132147....@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
> >Financial: the advance is about one fifth it would have been had TWFM
> >been an adult book. No kidding.
>
> Does everyone here think that they know what an advance is?
> I sort of know. It isn't all that you get?
>
What little I know about this sort of business is on the music side,
not books. Advances are money up front against future profits. In the
music industry, you end up paying your advance back to the record
company (since they're greedy bastards). I have no clue if advances
are recoupable in publishing. After the album/book is published, the
artist/writer gets royalties from the profits. Unfortunately this is
usually sickeningly tiny percentage, maybe 10-15% of the profit. Note
that in the record industry profit it the amount of money after all
expenses, including all advances and recording costs.
So, on a slightly political note, don't buy albums. Download all the
music you want (but not the books. ;) ), but buy a lot of their
t-shirts and go to shows. That's where artists make their money
anyway. :D
Sylvain Chambon
> > Does everyone here think that they know what an advance is?
> > I sort of know. It isn't all that you get?
> >
>
> What little I know about this sort of business is on the music side,
> not books. Advances are money up front against future profits. In the
> music industry, you end up paying your advance back to the record
> company (since they're greedy bastards). I have no clue if advances
> are recoupable in publishing. After the album/book is published, the
> artist/writer gets royalties from the profits. Unfortunately this is
> usually sickeningly tiny percentage, maybe 10-15% of the profit. Note
> that in the record industry profit it the amount of money after all
> expenses, including all advances and recording costs.
I don't know about the UK publishing industry, but hereabouts publishing
contracts usually mention the percentage of royalties based on final
retail price (usually in the 8-10 percent, so every time you buy a book
for 5 euros, you give less than half a euro to the author).
Some publishers seem to have strange contracts, with royalties varying
based on number of copies sold (i.e. 15% for the first 1000 books, then
13% for the next 4000 books, then... then 6% for the rest), but that
doesn't seem to be very common (anymore?).
And yes, an advance is money paid up front against future profits. I
don't think I've heard anything about it being recoupable.
(A few months ago I went into a googling frenzy about this kind of
thing. Fascinating stuff, the publishing industry).
Sylvain.
Terry Pratchett
In the long, long run, maybe The policy is defended because children's
books tend to be cheaper (true) have a longer in-store shelf life if
they're any good at all ( generally true) tend to be shorter (so what?)
and finally, because it's traditional.
The advance is a lump sum paid against future royalties. You won't get
paid any more until that sum has been covered, but if the book sales
eventually don't cover the advance ('earn out') you don't have to pay it
back.
The advantage is a solid lump sum here and now, instead of in
six-monthly instalments some time in the future.
Anyway...the point of mentioning it at all is that Maurice and TWFM were
written by me as children's books, and have been considered and treated
as children's books all though the process, right to the bottom line. If
I had a sneaky plan to write adult books disguised as children's books,
then it was kind of dumb of me to do it for 'childrens book' money.
--
Terry Pratchett
Matt
> Anyway...the point of mentioning it at all is that Maurice and TWFM
> were written by me as children's books, and have been considered and
> treated as children's books all though the process, right to the
> bottom line. If I had a sneaky plan to write adult books disguised as
> children's books, then it was kind of dumb of me to do it for
> 'childrens book' money.
But don't you have a bank full of money anyway?
I heard the bank were running out of vault-space ;-)
And, speaking as someone who's never had more than £50 of money total in a
given month, how can you actually /spend/ that money?
(I don't know what I'd do with £10,000, let alone a million)
--
Matt
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snip>
> (I don't know what I'd do with £10,000, let alone a million)
Once you start getting these little monsters you have to feed and
clothe (normally described as children) it becomes increasingly
easy to spend money ;-)
It'd probably take me a while to spend a million, but £10,000
wouldn't last much longer than a bucket of water on the sun ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
Michael Miller
> In article <9e18274.03061...@posting.google.com>, Michael
> Miller <black...@techie.com> writes
> >
> >Ouch. Do they at least make up for it on the back end?
>
> In the long, long run, maybe The policy is defended because children's
> books tend to be cheaper (true) have a longer in-store shelf life if
> they're any good at all ( generally true) tend to be shorter (so what?)
> and finally, because it's traditional.
>
And as we all know, that's the best reason for doing everything.
*CRINGE*
> The advance is a lump sum paid against future royalties. You won't get
> paid any more until that sum has been covered, but if the book sales
> eventually don't cover the advance ('earn out') you don't have to pay it
> back.
>
So it is pretty much like the music business. Record labels generally
screw you over a bit more since you have to repay not only advances,
but also recording costs and whatever else they can stick you with.
> The advantage is a solid lump sum here and now, instead of in
> six-monthly instalments some time in the future.
>
> Anyway...the point of mentioning it at all is that Maurice and TWFM were
> written by me as children's books, and have been considered and treated
> as children's books all though the process, right to the bottom line. If
> I had a sneaky plan to write adult books disguised as children's books,
> then it was kind of dumb of me to do it for 'childrens book' money.
I understand where you're coming from. I was just amazed that at no
point while reading TWFM did I feel like I was being condescended.
Most books geared towards children that I've read have the tone of
someone talking to an infant. "Aw... izzint ooh a coot widdle fing..."
Not that I was expecting to be assumed an idiot... I don't really know
what I was expecting, not having read TAMAHER yet.
Terry Pratchett
>screw you over a bit more since you have to repay not only advances,
>but also recording costs and whatever else they can stick you with.
Nope. The author gets an advance against royalties. After
publication, they get six-monthly statements of copies sold. Once (and
if) the book has sold enough copies that the royalties are equal to the
lump paid, the author then starts getting royalty payments. In other
words, they're just getting paid up front. There is some minor
screwing-over sometimes, but it's nothing like as bad as the music biz
sounds.
>
>
>I understand where you're coming from. I was just amazed that at no
>point while reading TWFM did I feel like I was being condescended.
>Most books geared towards children that I've read have the tone of
>someone talking to an infant. "Aw... izzint ooh a coot widdle fing..."
You may be reading the wrong books:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Elizabeth Fusina
> I understand where you're coming from. I was just amazed that at no
> point while reading TWFM did I feel like I was being condescended.
> Most books geared towards children that I've read have the tone of
> someone talking to an infant. "Aw... izzint ooh a coot widdle fing..."
> Not that I was expecting to be assumed an idiot... I don't really know
> what I was expecting, not having read TAMAHER yet.
Read it. I did, and am currently reading it to my 8yo daughter. She very
much likes it, although when she realized that A)Maurice is a cat, and
B) he is hanging around with rats, her first comment was, "But cats kill
and eat rats!" She has thus far consented to go along with the premise
that this one doesn't, but...
Ah, I think I should tell a story about her that should give an idea of
how her mind works. I like lamb-roast, grilled, fried, whatever. I made
lamb for dinner one night. Daughter asks what the meat is. "Lamb," I
answer. "Cute, little, fluffy white lamb?" she asks. "Um, yes." I answer
her, thinking that lamb may soon be off her menu, along with most other
meat type foods, as generally when little girls make the connection
between the meat they are eating and the animals (specifically cute,
little, white and fluffy types) the meat comes from, vegetarianism is
the result.
"Well," she says, "It tastes delicious." And she proceeded to eat two
more helpings.
Elizabeth
Michael Miller
> In article <9e18274.03061...@posting.google.com>, Michael
> Miller <black...@techie.com> writes
> >
<snip>
> >I understand where you're coming from. I was just amazed that at no
> >point while reading TWFM did I feel like I was being condescended.
> >Most books geared towards children that I've read have the tone of
> >someone talking to an infant. "Aw... izzint ooh a coot widdle fing..."
>
> You may be reading the wrong books:-)
Just the stuff that hasn't yet been banned from school libraries for
being too racist, too inflammatory, having too many swear words,
having anything to do with anything fun, and generally for talking
about things that moronic adults think kids can't cope with (although
I see no reason why one book should be banned because of swear words,
while another (Where the Red Fern Grows) is still required reading
despite having graphic descriptions of DOGS BEING EVISCERATED). It's
been a while since I read anything that I read in school, but if I
felt condescended then it would be worse now. ;)
Terry Pratchett
Fusina <fus...@radix.net> writes
>Read it. I did, and am currently reading it to my 8yo daughter. She very
>much likes it, although when she realized that A)Maurice is a cat, and
>B) he is hanging around with rats, her first comment was, "But cats kill
>and eat rats!" She has thus far consented to go along with the premise
>that this one doesn't, but...
>
--
Terry Pratchett
Julia Jones
Is that "even for you", since even a World Famous Author can't flog lots
of kiddie books unless their initials are JK, or "especially for you",
since you're a Well Known Author of books for grownups and thus clearly
aren't good marketing material for the children's market?
(Sorry. I obviously still haven't quite recovered from various panels at
Baycon that could have been called "How to be bitter and twisted about
the suits at publishing conglomerates".)
--
Julia Jones
"The Syndicate" - a heartwarming tale of geek love among the stars. Volumes 1
and 2 available now from http://www.amatory-ink.co.uk Details and free sample
chapters at http://www.julesjones.com/fiction/syndicate/syndicate.htm
Michael Miller
Anyone that's read 'Metamorphosis' by Franz Kafka can attest to that. ;)
Graycat
<julia...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>In article <7+9bfLAC...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <81fddf88.03061...@posting.google.com>, Forrest
>><gmaus...@hotmail.com> writes
>>>black...@techie.com (Michael Miller) wrote in message news:<9e18274.030
>>>6132147....@posting.google.com>...
>>>
>>>> Also, exactly what's the supposed difference between a regular
>>>> Discworld book and the children's books?
>>>
>>>Objective: chapters, length.
>>>Subjective: the settings on the Glee and Lesson knobs.
>>
>>Financial: the advance is about one fifth it would have been had TWFM
>>been an adult book. No kidding.
>>
><boggle>
>Is that "even for you", since even a World Famous Author can't flog lots
>of kiddie books unless their initials are JK, or "especially for you",
>since you're a Well Known Author of books for grownups and thus clearly
>aren't good marketing material for the children's market?
I think it's even for everyone. Including JKR, whose books, by the
way, I quite enjoy.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
From adress valid, but rarely checked. Use Reply-To to contact me
Andy Davison
<I2HX9VAx...@unseen.demon.co.uk>:
>
> 'Going along with the premise' is the root of most storytelling...
Seems to be the basis for foreign policy these days too :(
--
Andy Davison
an...@oiyou.force9.co.uk
Terry Pratchett
<julia...@myrealbox.com> writes
>>
><boggle>
>Is that "even for you", since even a World Famous Author can't flog lots
>of kiddie books unless their initials are JK, or "especially for you",
>since you're a Well Known Author of books for grownups and thus clearly
>aren't good marketing material for the children's market?
Even for everyone. At the JKR end, though, the amounts are so big that
it just doesn't signify.
--
Terry Pratchett
Bruce Murphy
Maybe by the time she's had seven books worth of practice, I might
even manage to enjoy the prose. *shudder*
On the other hand, what if she doesn't stop at 7? Does anyone know if
Robert Jordan's middle initial is "K" and whether we should all be
very very worried? :) Has anyone seen him in the last couple of years?
B>
Julia Jones
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
This probably explains quite a lot about the productivity rate of one of
my friends who is indeed a children's author. Definitely not at the JKR
end, although she seems to make a reasonable living at it.
--
Julia Jones
Who will not be joining the queue at the local bookshop at 11:30 pm on the
20th, because I want the version in English, not American.
David Chapman
> Does anyone know if
> Robert Jordan's middle initial is "K" and whether we should all be
> very very worried? :)
Robert Jordan's middle initial is "O". (His real name is James Oliver
Rigney, if you were curious - and yes, the J<foo>R is a coincidence.)
> Has anyone seen him in the last couple of years?
Crossroads of Twilight signing tour, so yes.
--
I believe in animal testing.
<thud>
<meow!>
That's a cat.
Mal Franks
about gold. Gandalf entered. Gandalf said "Hurry up". After being
threatened with a cloven skull from one well placed blow, David Chapman
said:
>
> Robert Jordan's middle initial is "O". (His real name is James Oliver
> Rigney, if you were curious - and yes, the J<foo>R is a coincidence.)
>
> > Has anyone seen him in the last couple of years?
>
> Crossroads of Twilight signing tour, so yes.
>
>
For some reason I was pretty disappointed with Crossroads of Twiligh -
didn't grab me in the same way as Winter's Heart
--
Mal Franks
] firs...@eitherofdomainsbelow.org
[ www.speccies.org : a comp.sys.sinclair site
] www.guildsofcamelot.org.uk : set-up your DAoC guild's private forum
Graycat
<spa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:04:38 +0100 Thorin sat down and started singing
>about gold. Gandalf entered. Gandalf said "Hurry up". After being
>threatened with a cloven skull from one well placed blow, David Chapman
>said:
>>
>> Robert Jordan's middle initial is "O". (His real name is James Oliver
>> Rigney, if you were curious - and yes, the J<foo>R is a coincidence.)
>>
>> > Has anyone seen him in the last couple of years?
>>
>> Crossroads of Twilight signing tour, so yes.
>>
>>
>
>For some reason I was pretty disappointed with Crossroads of Twiligh -
>didn't grab me in the same way as Winter's Heart
Personally I think the last three or so (haven't read crossroads) were
crap. The first ones were ok. Now it feels as though the entire books
are just filler and people acting stupidly from pride and
narrowmindedness - spinning it out as long as possible, because that
way he'll make more money...
David Chapman
>> For some reason I was pretty disappointed with Crossroads of Twiligh
>> - didn't grab me in the same way as Winter's Heart
>
> Personally I think the last three or so (haven't read crossroads) were
> crap.
Crossroads lags a bit, but the writing is decent and some major plot
advances are made.
You didn't like ACoS? Most people thought that was the last before the
series began to slide.
> The first ones were ok. Now it feels as though the entire books
> are just filler and people acting stupidly from pride and
> narrowmindedness - spinning it out as long as possible, because that
> way he'll make more money...
He's been blocked, I think. He's got three minor backstory projects he's
working on to keep him in the mood and give him a break if he needs it; the
first is just an expansion of New Spring, but the other two are the story of
Tam al'Thor during the Aiel War and a direct prologue to TEotW concerning
exactly how Moiraine and Lan found that the Dragon was in Emond's Field.
The plan is to release them in alternate years with a book in the main
series; NS2 in 2004, WoT 11 in 2005, What Tam Did Next in 2006, WoT 12 in
2007, finishing with WoT Zero in 2008. (Yes, the famous "three more books"
estimate has been reduced to two.)
Graycat
<nos...@nospam.gro> wrote:
>The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Graycat will say:
>> On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:31:04 +0100, Mal Franks
>> <spa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>> For some reason I was pretty disappointed with Crossroads of Twiligh
>>> - didn't grab me in the same way as Winter's Heart
>>
>> Personally I think the last three or so (haven't read crossroads) were
>> crap.
>
>Crossroads lags a bit, but the writing is decent and some major plot
>advances are made.
>
>You didn't like ACoS? Most people thought that was the last before the
>series began to slide.
Not sure...well, yes, that one was pretty decent. I don't have the
books with me right now... I guess by that time, and certainly now, I
was just so fed up with the incessant bickering. I have a hard time
enjoying a book where all the tension comes not from the struggle
between heroes and adversaries, but from the fact that all the
"heroes" are <rant> petty, small minded, selfish, immature brats who
completely lack the ability to communicate, let alone think that
anyone else, no matter who, might have something to contribute.</rant>
Really, all the evil ones have to do is sit back and wait as the good
guys all drive each other to insanity, suicide and complete implosion
- then sweep up the bits.
I don't know, I liked the fact that the people had failings in the
beginning, but no one ever develops! They just stay the same (repeat
rant). Only with more power and thus more opportunity to shoot
themselves in the foot, so to speak.
Hetta
>
> And yes, an advance is money paid up front against future profits. I
> don't think I've heard anything about it being recoupable.
An advance is not recoupable, at least over here.
What happens is, you get a set percentage of (price - tax) x print run. Of this,
the advance is what you get in advance - my contracts were for 1/4 when I handed
in the manuscript, 1/4 when the book was published, the rest as the print run
runs out. If it doesn't run out you're not in debt to your publisher; this is
fair. The publishers are, after all, in full control of almost all factors that
determine demand: marketing budget (extremely important), press contacts,
distribution channels, size of print run, layout, price ... the author only
hands in his/her text and/or pictures and is anxious to see the result a few
months later, in the galley proofs: it's either excellent (which is very nice)
or butchered (which isn't).
Hetta
--
Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland
Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed