SC/B5/Trek & Writers
Robert Rhodes
Don't let it bother you too much Peter... Joe Straczynski had to deal
with the same problems with Babylon 5. Everyone said [in the beginning]
"oh, its just a knockoff of Star Trek: DS9." Heck, I even fell for that
one originally... which is why I really have it out for Paramount.
(They are definately OFF my Valentine Card list.) Nevermind that B5 was
conceived about six years before DS9 was created... nevermind that the
pilot episode of DS9 was almost identical to B5's [I'm sure that had
nothing to do with the fact that JMS pitched the B5 idea to Paramount
first, but they turned him down after reading thorugh his pilot
script]... nevermind the fact that, when Paramount got wind that
Warner Bros. was creating a science fiction show about a space
station, that Paramount's ST:DS9 went from creation, hiring, production,
and tv within 6 months, barely beating B5's pilot episode by only a week
or two.
Ok.. sorry... I'm getting derailed here... needless to say, I'm not a
fan of Paramount. And I do mean *Paramount*. JMS has said, and I
agree, that the writers on Star Trek are not interested in fighting
against B5's scripts... but I think Paramount _IS_. And, I'm sure that
Paramount executives have a strangle-hold around their writers. {THEY
MUST... have you tried watching Voyager? Ouch.} If the writers on Trek
had a free hand, I bet we'd get some wonderful shows. B5 is written
almost entirely by JMS. {With the expection of the first two seasons...
which includes your two scripts, of course!} Warner Bros. has allowed
JMS a free reign on the show... and the result has made Warner's *very*
pleased... financially speaking. Too bad Paramount won't take a hint.
The problem is, Trek has been around for 30 years. A new science
fiction show comes out, and almost the first thing out of people's
mouths is how it compares to Star Trek: TOS, TNG, DS9, or V. B5 went
through that for about 2 years, before it really began to fly. Its not
that the shows weren't well written, as much as word of mouth. "If its
not Trek, it won't work." Well, B5 has proven that statement false...
and so has Space Cases.
How ANYone can say that Space Cases is a ripoff of Voyager is COMPLETELY
beyond my comprehension. I've watched Voyager, and its biggest problem
is that is has no idea what to do with itself. It has a ship, with no
plot other than "we got to go home, it'll take us 70 years." {Heaven
help us all if they try and give us 70 years of Voyager.} It has
characters.. but not _people_ that we can believe in. Space Cases DOES.
I can watch Space Cases, enjoy the show, enjoy the scripts, and say "I
wish I were there" or "Thats what I'd do if I were on the Christa." I
can relate to the crew... and a lot of people can. Same with B5. These
are PEOPLE we care about and can relate to. These are our school
friends, our school principle [sp] and they have faults. They're not
perfect. Not every problem has a perfect solution.
And there is something new in the stories. A fresh approach. Space
Cases is only two years old [on teevee that is], and... as I understand
it... it has an overall arc/plot that is going to be told. Voyager
needs help. This week, we find out that they've tripped over an old,
dead Borg. Great. ST has only killed that "bad guy" a couple of
times.. once in the TNG... and then in the TNG movie "First Contact".
They have a chance to really write some interesting stories... but
instead fall back on old-hat stuff. I don't WANT to hear about the Borg
anymore... I want new challenges.
And, as far as I'm concerned, as long as we have Joe Straczynski and
Peter David... not to mention all the other science fiction authors like
Ben Bova, Harlan Ellison, Michael Crichton... which are some of my
favorites... and untold others that I still have to discover, there is
still hope.
There is much, much more to science fiction than Trek... Paramount's
Star Trek has a corner on the market for about 25 years. I'm so glad to
see B5 and Space Cases challenging that... and winning... that I can't
hardly express in words.
Always, there will be people that challenge a show with another. Its
not just Trek. As memory serves, people watched the original Star Trek
and said it was a ripoff of Lost In Space. (Or was it the other way
around?) Either way, people have been challenging one science fiction
show with another for quite some time. The same goes for books. JMS
gets a little upset [and rightfully so] when someone watches B5 and says
"oh, this is just a ripoff of Lord of the Rings". Good grief people...
writers DO have original thoughts and ideas. Its not the writing, its
the perception of the reader. If the reader really likes Star Wars, and
B5 shows up all of a sudden, guess what they're going to compare B5
too... and they'll find similarities. The reader always does.
Its OK to _compare_ two shows, two books, or even a combination of books
and shows... but stop calling everything a ripoff of another show or
book. Give the writers a chance! They're good at what they do, or they
wouldn't be selling books. The last I checked, JMS was still writing
scripts for B5 because people enjoy it. Peter David is still writing...
just about everything... because people enjoy reading or watching it...
and they want more. The last I looked, there is a BUNCH of science
fiction books on the bookshelf of the local bookstore, because people
like science fiction, and want more. If all the stories possible were
already written, you wouldn't see new books on the shelves... just old
ones.
But there are always stories left to be told.
Just ask Peter David.
,Shark
{To those that have read this whole post without sleeping, thanks! :)}
In article <19970206205...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
pad...@aol.com says...
>
>Lucky am I writes: "I can't believe they don't have transporters in
SPACE
>CASES!"
>
>Nor do they have them in BABYLON 5. Is that also an inferior program?
>
>Face it: The only reason transporters were created for STAR TREK was
so
>that they could avoid having to land the ship, since it was
unaffordable
>on their budget. We land our ship, so we don't need them. Besides,
since
>we already have people claiming we're a VOYAGER knock off (even though
our
>pilot script was written before the UPN network was announced, much
less
>VOYAGER), are you saying we should take pains to do things that make us
>*more* like TREK?
>
>PAD
--
-Robert "Shark" Rhodes
rrh...@airmail.net
http://web2.airmail.net/rrhodes/sc/
Anglofans
Actually, I've never been able to get into B5, so I find myself getting
very annoyed at people who go around preaching it like it was the next
gospel of salvation.
What I dislike are all these people who said "B5 is a rip-off of DS9 who
are now going around saying DS9 is ripping-off B5 (NO, you didn't, but
I've run into enought people with similar views who DO)
Paramount staff and management are ridiculous -- well, so were the staff
and management of Nickelodeon for decreeing that they had to drop the
space ship on the Commander! There isn't one group of executives who give
a damn what real people think.
That's why there's fanfic -- as PAD himself could tell you. One of the
first fanfics I read was a friend's copy of "The Devil's War" an
Assignment: Earth (another Roddenberry pilot that should be ressurected as
a comic book)/Project: Questor (ditto ditto) crossover written by this guy
with two first names...
There are no fast answers -- I've gotten so I don't even care anymore,
which is why what participation I've done on this and the
alt.tv.space-cases newsgroup comes as such a surprise to the folks that
know me offline
Robert Rhodes
In article <19970208160...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
angl...@aol.com says...
>Actually, I've never been able to get into B5, so I find myself getting
>very annoyed at people who go around preaching it like it was the next
>gospel of salvation.
Good point. I used to preach ST like it was *the* only thing to watch.
But, happily enough, I grew up and out of that stage. I do try to get
people to watch B5... and Space Cases... because I believe the shows are
very well written (something I think is lacking in most of the current
episodes of DS9 and ST:V).
>What I dislike are all these people who said "B5 is a rip-off of DS9
>who are now going around saying DS9 is ripping-off B5 (NO, you didn't,
>but I've run into enought people with similar views who DO)
And, I'll be the first to admit, that was me about 2 years ago. I
decided, however, to start telling everyone that you can watch both
*and* still enjoy both.
>Paramount staff and management are ridiculous -- well, so were the
>staff and management of Nickelodeon for decreeing that they had to
>drop the space ship on the Commander!
Bingo! A logic all their own, with no consideration given to the
viewing audience about what *they* want.
>That's why there's fanfic -- as PAD himself could tell you.
Fanfiction ... is a good way to keep a show alive. But its always
bothered me, a little bit anyway, because in this case, Space Cases is a
show conceived in the minds of Bill Mumy and Peter David. Only they
really know what the characters will do, where they'll go, who'll
they'll meet... Other writers can also write about any of the above,
whether they're writing facfiction or commercially published books. But
they can't evolve the characters... they can't _move_ them forward,
because only Mumy and David know where they want the characters to go.
For example, another writer could write a story about how Suzee saves
the crew... but only Mumy and David could write a story where Suzee is
introduced as _part of_ the crew.
:)
,Shark
Robert Rhodes
In article <19970207182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
thi...@aol.com says...
>Also, _Voyager_ is set in the Delta quadrant. Guess where the Borg are
>from?? A lot of people are surprised they haven't met them already.
>Which, of course, doesn't detract from the fact that this IS a ratings
>ploy...
PRECISELY my point.
>>I don't WANT to hear about the Borg anymore...
>
>There are some people, including myself, who do...
Ok... I'll admit to wording this improperly... I'll try again. :)
For the most part, in each episode where we meet/fight the Borg, its
been a reasonably good episode. But Voyager's past history as a show
with good scripts is nonexistant. I'm concerned that they'll bring the
Borg in, write a lame script or two, and our hero's barely escape [but
*do* get away], and we're ready to continue onward towards home..
Paramount believes in keeping their characters safe... there is no
danger, because [even today] people are brought into the show wearing a
perverbial "red shirt", ready to sacrifice themselves unto the ST:V
executives and writers.
>>I want new challenges.
>
>Indeed. Which doesn't preclude them from delaing with old character IF
>they're done right and not brought out of nowhere as an obvious ratings
>ploy. And since the Borg are from the quadrant _Voyager_ is set
>in,it's not as unlikely as bringing in the Klingons or something like
>that.
Yes... but didn't I see a Klingon ship in the coming attractions for
next weeks episode? Hmmm...
>The character that I think was REALLY used as a lame attempt at rating
>was Q... Why was HE dealing with Janeway and company? I have a host
>of problems with Q's appearances on _Voyager_...
Yes, definately a problem there. (My only problem is, I enjoy the
character "Q" a heck of a lot more than I enjoy just about anyone on the
Voyager crew)
,Shark
Jeff & Mary Morris
Robert Rhodes wrote:
> Fanfiction ... is a good way to keep a show alive. But its always
> bothered me, a little bit anyway, because in this case, Space Cases is a
> show conceived in the minds of Bill Mumy and Peter David. Only they
> really know what the characters will do, where they'll go, who'll
> they'll meet... Other writers can also write about any of the above,
> whether they're writing facfiction or commercially published books. But
> they can't evolve the characters... they can't _move_ them forward,
> because only Mumy and David know where they want the characters to go.
>
> For example, another writer could write a story about how Suzee saves
> the crew... but only Mumy and David could write a story where Suzee is
> introduced as _part of_ the crew.
Fanfic has very little to do with keeping a show alive - it's too
much of an underground and minority fan activity. But it IS a sign
(usually) of a healthy and well-created show that creative fans find
fanfic possibilites in it. One of the feelings out there about fanfic is
that it's for doing things the show can't or won't do, due to various
restrictions. Read this as you will. Another popular fanfic activity is
the 'missing scene' story, or 'what happened after' story. Romantic
entanglements are also popular.
So far, I've seen relatively little SC fanfic, but what I have seen
has been interesting. I'd like to see more. I think more people out
there are writing fanfic than anyone realizes...
I'm sure MaryB has a few things to say on the subject, too....(Gee,
where are those copies of 'Faces of Time' again? Gotta dig those out and
reread them someday...lots of good authors in there, yes siree...)
Sleep depraved
Mary
Mary Bloemker
> Fanfic has very little to do with keeping a show alive - it's too
>much of an underground and minority fan activity. But it IS a sign
>(usually) of a healthy and well-created show that creative fans find
>fanfic possibilites in it. One of the feelings out there about fanfic is
>that it's for doing things the show can't or won't do, due to various
>restrictions. Read this as you will. Another popular fanfic activity is
>the 'missing scene' story, or 'what happened after' story. Romantic
>entanglements are also popular.
> So far, I've seen relatively little SC fanfic, but what I have seen
>has been interesting. I'd like to see more. I think more people out
>there are writing fanfic than anyone realizes...
> I'm sure MaryB has a few things to say on the subject, too....(Gee,
>where are those copies of 'Faces of Time' again? Gotta dig those out and
>reread them someday...lots of good authors in there, yes siree...)
Did you just toss a glove on the ground there?
Fans may be rightly credited with keeping shows alive, but fan fiction
really can't. In fact, some of it (that, IMHO, should have been kept
in the author's desk drawer) has even hacked off actors and directors
and producers when it came to their attention. Not all fan fiction is
written _en hommage_, and not all fan fiction that is written by
people who THINK they are writing _en hommage_ is perceived as such by
anyone other than the author.
I happen to be one of those people who feel that fan fiction is for
doing what the show in question can or won't do. To take an example of
fan fiction that actually got published and everything (and what a
great anecdote that is!), fan fiction (again, IMHO) is about taking
the characters from "Here Come The Brides" and sticking them in the
"Star Trek" universe (or vice versa, depending on your viewpoint, of
course) and have a grand old time with in-jokes in the process. For
cancelled shows, it's about putting the characters in situations that
the show itself never got around to putting the characters into. For
still-current shows--well, frankly, unless it's the
story-that-would-never-be-written-anyway, I've never seen much point
in writing fan fiction for still-current shows. But that's just me;
your mileage may vary.
Yeah, now that you mention it, there was this one story in "Faces of
Time" that would have never been written for "Doctor Who" and so it
was up to a fan writer to do what was done, which was to get all of
the Doctors (four at the time of writing) together in one place....
Mary D. Bloemker
----------------
ma...@aol.com
MDBlo...@worldnet.att.net
Anglofans
>Another writer could write about how Suzee saves the crew, but only Peter
David and Bill Mumy could write about how Suzee _joins_ the crew.
Very true! But that doesn't stop us from wondering "Well, gee, what would
happen if --" :)
Jeff & Mary Morris
Mary Bloemker wrote:
> Did you just toss a glove on the ground there?
Who, me? Mary, you know me better than that! (flutters eyelashes,
waves fan coquettishly)
Hey, one of your posts finally made it through on our server!
> Fans may be rightly credited with keeping shows alive, but fan fiction
> really can't. In fact, some of it (that, IMHO, should have been kept
> in the author's desk drawer) has even hacked off actors and directors
> and producers when it came to their attention. Not all fan fiction is
> written _en hommage_, and not all fan fiction that is written by
> people who THINK they are writing _en hommage_ is perceived as such by
> anyone other than the author.
Ohhh, boy, is THAT the truth. Note to Kristian: Never, never read any
fanfic featuring your character. Trust me. I've seen it happen; there
are actors at this minute wandering the earth aimlessly, having been
struck dumb and blind by what they saw. It's not pretty. Don't let it
happen to you.
> I happen to be one of those people who feel that fan fiction is for
> doing what the show in question can or won't do. For
> still-current shows--well, frankly, unless it's the
> story-that-would-never-be-written-anyway, I've never seen much point
> in writing fan fiction for still-current shows. But that's just me;
> your mileage may vary.
Oh, I don't know. As mentioned, there's the ever popular missing-scene
story. Example - I'm sure it's only a matter of time until someone
writes about Goddard getting out of that plexiglass tube. Another type
of story that must be mentioned because of its overwhelming popularity
(at the moment) is the vampire story. One gets written in every genre
eventually - I think it's some kind of rule. And I won't even discuss
hurt/comfort, or other types of story just as pervasive.
Mary
Mary Bloemker
> Oh, I don't know. As mentioned, there's the ever popular missing-scene
>story.
Yeah, but's that's still within the scope of
something-the-show-isn't-going-to-do. Obviously, if the scene is
missing in the first place, right? I'm talking about anticipating the
direction that characters on a still-extant show are going when the
legitimate creators are still on the journey themselves. Other people
enjoy this type of speculation, but I don't. (At least, not until the
show is declared officially dead and there's no hope that any more
character and plot development will issue from the original creators
evermore--THEN it's party time!) Which I figured out a while ago is
why I never became a fan of Star Wars fan fiction, the bulk of which
was written between movies and therefore not of the remotest interest
to me.
Jeff & Mary Morris
Mary Bloemker wrote:
>
> Yeah, but's that's still within the scope of
> something-the-show-isn't-going-to-do. Obviously, if the scene is
> missing in the first place, right? I'm talking about anticipating the
> direction that characters on a still-extant show are going when the
> legitimate creators are still on the journey themselves. Other people
> enjoy this type of speculation, but I don't. (At least, not until the
> show is declared officially dead and there's no hope that any more
> character and plot development will issue from the original creators
> evermore--THEN it's party time!) Which I figured out a while ago is
> why I never became a fan of Star Wars fan fiction, the bulk of which
> was written between movies and therefore not of the remotest interest
> to me.
OK, I see what you're saying now. Sorry; working too many night shifts
can make one dense at times.
You know, I had pretty much the same reaction to the Star Wars
fanfiction; I just hadn't thought about it in a while. Never wanted any
until after the third movie aired, and then found I was only interested
in what was written after that movie. (I can vividly recall making the
rounds at MediaWest one year, asking at what seemed like table after
table for post-Jedi fanfic) Latched onto some great stuff that way,
particularly Ellen Randolph's stuff - no surprise to me when she started
to be published pro as Melanie Rawn.
Karl Arild Tønnesen
Jeff & Mary Morris <jsmo...@inlink.com> skriver:
> Robert Rhodes wrote:
> > Fanfiction ... is a good way to keep a show alive. But its always
> > bothered me, a little bit anyway, because in this case, Space Cases is a
> > show conceived in the minds of Bill Mumy and Peter David. Only they
> > really know what the characters will do, where they'll go, who'll
> > they'll meet... Other writers can also write about any of the above,
> > whether they're writing facfiction or commercially published books. But
> > they can't evolve the characters... they can't _move_ them forward,
> > because only Mumy and David know where they want the characters to go.
> >
> > For example, another writer could write a story about how Suzee saves
> > the crew... but only Mumy and David could write a story where Suzee is
> > introduced as _part of_ the crew.
>
> much of an underground and minority fan activity. But it IS a sign
> (usually) of a healthy and well-created show that creative fans find
> fanfic possibilites in it. One of the feelings out there about fanfic is
> that it's for doing things the show can't or won't do, due to various
> restrictions. Read this as you will. Another popular fanfic activity is
> the 'missing scene' story, or 'what happened after' story. Romantic
> entanglements are also popular.
> So far, I've seen relatively little SC fanfic, but what I have seen
> has been interesting. I'd like to see more. I think more people out
> there are writing fanfic than anyone realizes...
> I'm sure MaryB has a few things to say on the subject, too....(Gee,
> where are those copies of 'Faces of Time' again? Gotta dig those out and
> reread them someday...lots of good authors in there, yes siree...)
>
> Mary