PAD: fan fiction...
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
Ellison for fighting her battles and crowing about having Yahoo shut
down a Pern fan fiction site.
Now there's a ton of fan fiction of your works out there (for example,
YJ, NF, likely stuff based on your Hulk run). What's your opinion on
fan fiction sites, fan sites, and whether they violate copyright.
(If, since you don't own those, that affects your opinion, et's pretend
that Sachs and Violens had been hugely successful, spawning the sequel
series you once mentioned, a series of movies made, etc, and thus
inspired fan fictioneers to right all sorts of tales about JJ
and....(eep, I've forget Violens' name).
---SCAVENGER
.
Scavenger <to...@toddkogutt.com> writes
Years ago I asked PAD the same question in this newsgroup. I don`t have
the printout I kept at hand but in essence he said that fan fiction is
not taking anything away from him but that he can`t read it. When the NF
and PAD mailing lists were established it was agreed immediately that
all NF fan fiction will be handled in a separate list. So far it worked
very well.
I think what fans should do is finding out what the author in question
thinks of fan fiction and respect his or her wishes. And if this author
is generous enough to allow it, fans should do their best to protect him
from a very small minority who could cause trouble by making sure that
fan fiction only appears in specific fan fiction newsgroups, mailing
lists and websites so that people who accuse him of "stealing" something
don`t have a case.
I learned that one Babylon 5 episode "Passing through Gethsemane" nearly
had to be scrapped because a so-called fan caused trouble. And I also
learned from a posting written by JMS that Marion Zimmer Bradley even
lost a whole novel because of one so-called fan. Stories like these make
me extremely angry and therefore I can`t blame Anne McCaffrey at all.
Fan fiction is not only a potential risk for an author, it also has many
benefits. It is IMO a wonderful way of advertising and I can imagine it
is also a nice feeling for the author if people enjoy his stories so
much that they inspire fans to write more. I am not a fan fiction writer
but I enjoy reading NF fan fiction very much - also because it helps a
bit to bridge the long wait until the next NF books come out :-).
I am very grateful that PAD allows this but should he ever change his
mind, I will respect it as would - I am sure - the vast majority of
fans. I want NF, my favourite series, to live long and prosper and am
certainly willing to do my best to support it.
>---SCAVENGER
Baerbel Haddrell
Tracey Rich
>I learned that one Babylon 5 episode "Passing through Gethsemane" nearly
>had to be scrapped because a so-called fan caused trouble. And I also
>learned from a posting written by JMS that Marion Zimmer Bradley even
>lost a whole novel because of one so-called fan. Stories like these make
>me extremely angry and therefore I can`t blame Anne McCaffrey at all.
Regarding that MZB thing, you should probably hear the whole story, because
this is *not* just a case of some fan coincidentally coming up with a similar
idea and threatening to sue (which is the way many people make it sound).
This explanation is based on what I heard from several of MZB's friends at a
con last year, so if it's biased at all, it's biased in MZB's favor, not in
the fan's.
For many years, MZB edited and arranged for publication of collections of
Darkover fanfiction (under the name Friends of Darkover). Occasionally,
fans submitted ideas that MZB incorporated into her own novels, and she gave
the fans credit for the ideas by recognizing the fans on an acknowledgements
page of the novel.
Well, one day along came a fan who submitted a story, and MZB wanted to use
something from it in a novel (according to MZB's friend, it was a trivial and
not particularly original idea intended to be used in a small way) and MZB
planned to give the traditional acknowledgement to the fan. The fan, however,
wanted to get paid for the idea. At that point, the novel got scrapped and
the publisher put an end to the "Friends of Darkover" series of anthologies
and had MZB distance herself from fanfiction.
In fairness to the fan, it should be pointed out that MZB's mental state in
her later years seems not to have been 100%, and it is quite possible that MZB
could have taken substantial ideas from fans without credit. In fact one of
her later Darkover novels (The Heirs of Hammerfell) lifted substantial
portions of Dumas's Corsican Brothers without any acknowledgement of that
fact. I knew the novel was in trouble when I got to Chapter 7 and knew what
would happen because I had seen the Douglas Fairbanks movie version of the
Dumas classic.
In fairness to MZB, it should be pointed out that the idea is only a very
small part of the process of writing a novel, and not the most difficult part.
One author, speaking at a book store near me, mockingly told about all the
fans who come up to him and say, "I've got a story idea. You can write it,
and we'll split the profits 50/50," as if coming up with a story idea was half
of the work.
Kath OShea
>fans who come up to him and say, "I've got a story idea. You can write it,
>and we'll split the profits 50/50," as if coming up with a story idea was
>half of the work.
I have heard PAD tell the same story. Heck, I have been sitting next to him and
heard people say the equivilant to him.
Kath
Al Denton
"." <Em...@trekdata.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MOoXhCA3...@trekdata.demon.co.uk...
If you don't mind me asking, where can I find this New Frontier Fan fiction
? I've looked before but could not find any.
-Al-
.
Denton <alan.pr...@ntlworld.com> writes
>
>If you don't mind me asking, where can I find this New Frontier Fan fiction
>? I've looked before but could not find any.
It is not easy to find and there isn`t very much.
The Star Trek creative newsgroup posted some NF fan fiction in the past.
I have never used their archive, but you might find it there.
Most NF fan fiction I know of is in the NF fan fiction mailing lists you
can find at yahoogroups.com. There you can also find the NF and
AllPeterDavid mailing lists I mentioned. PAD himself reads both and
occasionally participates.
>
>-Al-
>
Baerbel Haddrell
Elayne Riggs
> For many years, MZB edited and arranged for publication of collections of
> Darkover fanfiction (under the name Friends of Darkover). Occasionally,
> fans submitted ideas that MZB incorporated into her own novels, and she gave
> the fans credit for the ideas by recognizing the fans on an acknowledgements
> page of the novel.
> Well, one day along came a fan who submitted a story, and MZB wanted to use
> something from it in a novel (according to MZB's friend, it was a trivial and
> not particularly original idea intended to be used in a small way) and MZB
> planned to give the traditional acknowledgement to the fan. The fan, however,
> wanted to get paid for the idea. At that point, the novel got scrapped and
> the publisher put an end to the "Friends of Darkover" series of anthologies
> and had MZB distance herself from fanfiction.
> In fairness to the fan, it should be pointed out that MZB's mental state in
> her later years seems not to have been 100%, and it is quite possible that MZB
> could have taken substantial ideas from fans without credit.
In further fairness to the fan, it seems that if MZB were profiting from
their ideas it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for some kind of monetary
payment. In essence it sounds like these fans were almost doing bits of
"work for hire" for her and not getting compensated. That she owned the
characters wouldn't enter into it; the entire mainstream comic book
industry is based on the publisher owning the characters and the writers
and artists getting paid to tell stories using those characters.
- Elayne
Padguy
hard time coming down on any fan fic site since that's where my own writing
started.
What's problematic is that in my fanzine days, you distributed two, three
hundred of the thing. It was small potatos, and it was a labor of love over
something that meant a lot to you. Now thousands of "copies" can go out wiht
the press of some keys, and the problem is that if you don't defend your
trademark, you lose it. So it's a slippery slope.
PAD
Tracey Rich
>In further fairness to the fan, it seems that if MZB were profiting from
>their ideas it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for some kind of monetary
>payment. In essence it sounds like these fans were almost doing bits of
>"work for hire" for her and not getting compensated. That she owned the
>characters wouldn't enter into it; the entire mainstream comic book
>industry is based on the publisher owning the characters and the writers
>and artists getting paid to tell stories using those characters.
Well, the people whose whole stories were published in those
"Friends of Darkover" collections *were* paid (I think). And for several of
them, it seems to have been a foot in the door to get other novels published.
But some people submitted stories that presumably were not good enough for
publication, but contained some interesting ideas that were incorporated into
MZB's stories (with credit but not payment). That's what MZB wanted to do
here.
That being said, I'm not crazy about the way this fan is often demonized for
the high crime of wanting to get paid for the use of an idea that was
unquestionably submitted by the fan and unquestionably lifted by the author.
The split between idea and writing is definitely not 50/50, but an
idea is certainly a contribution that has some degree of value. I've
heard people at conventions talk as if this fan should have felt privileged to
have his/her ideas put into a novel that other people are making money on.
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
<pad...@aol.com> wrote:
> What's problematic is that in my fanzine days, you distributed two, three
> hundred of the thing. It was small potatos, and it was a labor of love over
> something that meant a lot to you. Now thousands of "copies" can go out wiht
> the press of some keys, and the problem is that if you don't defend your
> trademark, you lose it. So it's a slippery slope.
>
The Copyright issue I understand, but how does it violate trademark?
Doesn't there have to be..trade...involved? Or is distribution,
whether free or not, considered trade?
And what was Violens name?
---SCAVENGER personaly doesn't understand why Anne McCaffrey still has
fans after the way she treats them. I only learned of her and Pern
(despite reading fantasy and comics for years) back when she was
slapping down the PernMUSH folks. Then there was her suing people who
made dragon statues...and I've lost track of what else.
Edward McArdle
(Padguy) wrote:
It has always seemed to me that if someone *gives permission* to a
specific person to put up a fan web site, etc., they are stating their
ownership of that copyright or trademark.
--
Edward McArdle.
You need to alter my return address to reply to me.
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~mcardle
- me, my tennis club, photos, verses, a novel....
Edward McArdle
<fire...@panix.com> wrote:
> In further fairness to the fan, it seems that if MZB were profiting from
> their ideas it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for some kind of monetary
> payment. In essence it sounds like these fans were almost doing bits of
> "work for hire" for her and not getting compensated. That she owned the
> characters wouldn't enter into it; the entire mainstream comic book
> industry is based on the publisher owning the characters and the writers
> and artists getting paid to tell stories using those characters.
>
> - Elayne
It comes down to what the fans think they are doing.
If I were participating in a fan site and writing stories, on the
understanding that the author might use my idea, and mention my name, I
don't think I am entitled to ask for money - well, not to demand it.
If I wrote a story somewhere else and found it obviously lifted, I might
be annoyed.
.
<trr...@domain.com> writes
>That being said, I'm not crazy about the way this fan is often demonized for
>the high crime of wanting to get paid for the use of an idea that was
>unquestionably submitted by the fan and unquestionably lifted by the author.
>The split between idea and writing is definitely not 50/50, but an
>idea is certainly a contribution that has some degree of value. I've
>heard people at conventions talk as if this fan should have felt privileged to
>have his/her ideas put into a novel that other people are making money on.
All this was interesting to read but from what I have heard JMS
summarized it accurately enough: Thanks to a so-called fan MZB lost a
novel.
I can understand that this so-called fan in question was disappointed,
even annoyed. But s/he had absolutely no right (not from the legal point
of view and also not morally) to sabotage MZB`s book.
From what I have read I get the impression that MZB was very generous.
That she used ideas fans willingly gave to her, credited them and (if it
is indeed true) paid some of them sounds incredible to me. This was not
a right, it was a privilege the author granted and this so-called fan
seems to have destroyed something unique. And on top of that this person
gave fans and fan fiction a very bad name.
What this person should have done is to stop contributing, perhaps even
boycott her books and complain about this. But if s/he would really have
been a fan s/he would *never* have threatened the publishing of this
book.
No, that s/he gets demonized is what s/he deserves. I want to make it
perfectly clear: Should any professional be inspired by anything I have
written about books or Star Trek in general, I would feel very honoured
- also without being credited or even getting paid.
Baerbel Haddrell
.
Edward McArdle <deletethis...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>> What's problematic is that in my fanzine days, you distributed two, three
>> hundred of the thing. It was small potatos, and it was a labor of love over
>> something that meant a lot to you. Now thousands of "copies" can go out wiht
>> the press of some keys, and the problem is that if you don't defend your
>> trademark, you lose it. So it's a slippery slope.
>>
>> PAD
>
>It has always seemed to me that if someone *gives permission* to a
>specific person to put up a fan web site, etc., they are stating their
>ownership of that copyright or trademark.
>
Also all NF fan fiction I know starts with a disclaimer, telling who
owns the copyright and that no violation of copyright is intended. The
same is done in fanzines, newsletters and other fan publications. And
all publications have to be non-profit.
OK, I am not a lawyer, but I always had the impression that although
Star Trek (and other) fan fiction is also in the strictest sense a
violation of copyright under these circumstances, but that it is widely
accepted. I remember that Gene even welcomed fan fiction. I would
classify it as fair use if done within the established rules.
Yes, I heard about it that trademarks have to be defended. But how far
should you go? Or in other words, what is reasonable? Hunting down fans
who write stories about something they love is hardly helping to promote
the work of this author. Should this also include fans, including kids,
who draw pictures of their favourite characters and perhaps display them
on the net or elsewhere? I don`t know if it is true or not, but I heard
rumours that Disney even forbade a kindergarten to hang up some
decorations the children made. And (as mentioned in this thread) not
allowing fans to model dragons just for fun sounds excessive to me, too.
Baerbel Haddrell
Padguy
>Doesn't there have to be..trade...involved? Or is distribution,
>whether free or not, considered trade?<
When George Lucas sued the government over the repeated use of the phrase "Star
Wars technology," I don't think it had a thing to do with trade. He was
defending his right to exclusive use to the term.
PAD
Padguy
>rumours that Disney even forbade a kindergarten to hang up some
>decorations the children made. And (as mentioned in this thread) not
>allowing fans to model dragons just for fun sounds excessive to me, too
That wasn't rumors; that was an actual news story. In a nursery school (in
Florida, I believe) they had images of Disney characters painted on the wall.
The school was served witha cease-and-desist by Disney, informing them that
the characters had to be painted over. Here's the kicker: Hanna-Barbera,
catching wind of it, offered to send a team of their own animators, free of
charge, to the school to replace the offending Disney characters with HB
characters. The school took them up on it, and the artists had a personal and
public relations field day, slathering paint over Mickey Mouse and painting
Yogi Bear over him instead.
PAD
Elayne Riggs
> Elayne Riggs <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In further fairness to the fan, it seems that if MZB were profiting from
>>their ideas it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for some kind of monetary
>>payment. In essence it sounds like these fans were almost doing bits of
>>"work for hire" for her and not getting compensated. That she owned the
>>characters wouldn't enter into it; the entire mainstream comic book
>>industry is based on the publisher owning the characters and the writers
>>and artists getting paid to tell stories using those characters.
> Well, the people whose whole stories were published in those
> "Friends of Darkover" collections *were* paid (I think). And for several of
> them, it seems to have been a foot in the door to get other novels published.
> But some people submitted stories that presumably were not good enough for
> publication, but contained some interesting ideas that were incorporated into
> MZB's stories (with credit but not payment). That's what MZB wanted to do
> here.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. As others have pointed out, coming up
with an idea is not at all the same thing as actually writing a story.
However, this seems like a bit more complicated, as these ideas were
already embedded into stories in the first place. It's not the same thing
as coming up to a writer at a con and saying "hey, I have this great idea,
why don't you write a story using it and we'll split the profit?"
> The split between idea and writing is definitely not 50/50...
No, but neither is it entirely the writer's work when the ideas themselves
were originally part of fan-written stories.
I should imagine this is why a lot of writers prefer to stay far, far away
from fanfic.
- Elayne
.
<fire...@panix.com> writes
>
>No, but neither is it entirely the writer's work when the ideas themselves
>were originally part of fan-written stories.
Also on Psi Phi I heard again and again that proposals for new books had
been rejected simply because various professional authors had the same
or similar story ideas.
I think it is very arrogant to say, because a fan fiction writer used
that idea before, the professional author copied it.
>
>I should imagine this is why a lot of writers prefer to stay far, far away
>from fanfic.
No, because of the reasons I stated.
Professional writers don`t read fan fiction. When ideas in professional
Star Trek books appeared before in fan fiction, that is a coincidence,
nothing else.
>
>- Elayne
Baerbel Haddrell
Derek
Padguy wrote:
Also, he probably didn't like the Star Wars franchize to having
connotations that linked it to a politically volatile topic
--
Derek
<schf...@home.com>
Zz
zZ
|\ z _,,,---,,_
/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
MaryMorris
>owns the copyright and that no violation of copyright is intended. The
>same is done in fanzines, newsletters and other fan publications. And
>all publications have to be non-profit.
Some interesting info about copyright and how it applies to the existance of
fanfic can be found here:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Smart fans know that the commonly used 'copyright notice' that they put on
fanfic means absolutely NOTHING - and provides no protection whatsoever,
legally. Neither does it particularly matter if what they do is non-profit;
fanfic under any circumstances is a copyright violation, pure plain and simple.
However - Trek itself exists in a very odd situation in relationship to fanfic.
(more below)
>OK, I am not a lawyer, but I always had the impression that although
>Star Trek (and other) fan fiction is also in the strictest sense a
>violation of copyright under these circumstances, but that it is widely
>accepted. I remember that Gene even welcomed fan fiction. I would
>classify it as fair use if done within the established rules.
The 'fair use' doctrine applies solely to sections of a work quoted for the
purpose of education, review, or commentary. Fanfiction is something else -
it's what's known as a 'derivative work'. (See the link I gave above) It's not
fair use at all. Parody also enjoys some special legal protections, but most
fanfic is not parody.
All this being said - I have heard a copyright lawyer speculate on-line that
Paramount may have gotten itself in some legal murkiness concerning fanfic and
the Classic Trek copyrights when they allowed the professional publication (by
Bantam) of two collections of fanfic back in the late 70s - early 80s. At least
one story in those collections was credited to the fanzine it was originally
published in. Again, this was all purely speculation. The Trek copyright
holders have all been amazingly tolerant of the existance of fanfic, and we can
only hope that they continue to be so - not all copyright holders have been.
As to Roddenberry's legendary tolerance of fanfic - I have also heard evidence
the other way, including remarks supposedly made to assistants and at
conventions. There's no telling at this point; the man is gone. In his later
years he often contradicted himself, and remarks and attitudes were often
attributed to him by a well-known 'assistant' that people who knew him well say
he probably never made. There's no way to know what his real feelings may have
been.
Mary
Thomas Galloway
Tracey Rich <trr...@domain.com> wrote:
>That being said, I'm not crazy about the way this fan is often demonized for
>the high crime of wanting to get paid for the use of an idea that was
>unquestionably submitted by the fan and unquestionably lifted by the author.
>The split between idea and writing is definitely not 50/50, but an
>idea is certainly a contribution that has some degree of value. I've
As I heard it, it was more that the fan's reach exceeded her grasp. The
idea was supposedly minor, and could easily have been not used if the
fan so requested. Instead, the fan basically said that they'd consider
any novel set in that period of Darkover to be a use of their idea and
would then sue. At that point, it amounted to the fan denying the author
use of certain characters and situations that the author had invented.
tyg t...@panix.com
Thomas Galloway
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger <to...@toddkogutt.com> wrote:
>The Copyright issue I understand, but how does it violate trademark?
>Doesn't there have to be..trade...involved? Or is distribution,
>whether free or not, considered trade?
There is trade involved; the trade involving the product the trademark is
on. The whole point of a trademark, a mark used in trade to identify a
product, is that an association is created in the minds of customers between
the mark and the product. If a trademark is used improperly enough to
remove that association, the trademark is lost (which is why Xerox is
paranoid over the use of "xerox" as a generic verb or noun when photocopying
is done on, say, a Canon machine. If "xerox" becomes too generic, they
lose the trademark as it's no longer associated with the Xerox company,
but the whole photocopy industry). Similarly, if someone makes use of
trademarks in association with people or causes which people have
objections to, it creates an association between the company/product and
the unpopular cause, playing off the already created association between
the trademark and product.
So if I decide to use white text in the Coca-Cola font on a red background
on all posters and signs for my organization that read "Hitler is good",
even if I don't do any trade, my use of the Coca-Cola trademark font/colors
creates an undesirable association between Coke and Hitler, which can
damage the trade in Coca-Cola.
tyg t...@panix.com
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
<t...@panix.com> wrote:
> So if I decide to use white text in the Coca-Cola font on a red background
> on all posters and signs for my organization that read "Hitler is good",
> even if I don't do any trade, my use of the Coca-Cola trademark font/colors
> creates an undesirable association between Coke and Hitler, which can
> damage the trade in Coca-Cola.
Well that's a fine how-do-you-do....What am I supposed to do with this
then?
http://www.geocities.com/scav2001/hitisit.jpg
---SCAVENGER
Biffan
>When George Lucas sued the government over the repeated use of the phrase
>"Star
>Wars technology," I don't think it had a thing to do with trade. He was
>defending his right to exclusive use to the term.
But didn't he lose? I believe it was because it had gone on so long....
(Then again, I remember seeing Mark Hamill on stage during this time, and the
reference in his program bio to the "so-called Strategic Defense Initiative
Trilogy"!)
Biffan
45
Adam Petty (45)
1980-2000
Beloved Son, Grandson, Brother and Friend
Thomas Galloway
>> on all posters and signs for my organization that read "Hitler is good",
>> even if I don't do any trade, my use of the Coca-Cola trademark font/colors
>> creates an undesirable association between Coke and Hitler, which can
>> damage the trade in Coca-Cola.
>Well that's a fine how-do-you-do....What am I supposed to do with this
>then?
>http://www.geocities.com/scav2001/hitisit.jpg
Keep it up until I find out if Coca-Cola pays finder's fees?
tyg t...@panix.com
Scott Norris
Mrs.Rodenberry with the same effect.
Hopefully PAD got even with him somehow...
;-D
Scott45
"MaryMorris" <marym...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010420171809...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
MaryMorris
>Mrs.Rodenberry with the same effect.
The last I heard, he was working for Creation. He still pops up at their
conventions now and then.
>Hopefully PAD got even with him somehow...
If success is the best revenge, then IMO he has.
Mary