Wetback Solution
Jim E
would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and all
illegal aliens.
This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
supporting criminals.
It's about time.
Jim E
YankFan®
about time. Maybe we can start getting our trauma centers back.
R.D. Heilman
"YankFan®" <Yan...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:DfZUf.11872$w86....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Jim E wrote:
> > An initiative has been filed in Olympia that when passed
> > would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and all
> > illegal aliens.
> > This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
> > supporting criminals.
> > It's about time.
> >
cyr...@yahoo.com
California already passed exactly the same kind of bill.
It was overturned by the courts.
Good fucking luck.
Jim E
<cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143237096....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Have you noticed, we've been repairing the courts.
Jim E
Jim E
"R.D. Heilman" <rd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:SGZUf.1605$qe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "YankFan®" <Yan...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:DfZUf.11872$w86....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>> Jim E wrote:
>> > An initiative has been filed in Olympia that when passed
>> > would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and
>> > all
>> > illegal aliens.
>> > This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
>> > supporting criminals.
>> > It's about time.
>> >
> This is cruel
What the hell is cruel about it?
Anyone who attempts to cross a marked minefield in an effort to comit a
crime is too damn stupid to live.
Think of it as Evolution in Action.
Jim E
F. H.
> Have you noticed, we've been repairing the courts.
Famous last words for the republic.
Jim E
"F. H." <conn...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5K_Uf.78$b07.7@trnddc05...
> Jim E wrote:
>
>> Have you noticed, we've been repairing the courts.
>
> Famous last words for the republic.
No simply the end of social engineering by the loony left.
Jim E
F. H.
In the event of a little revolution I would be making a visit to various
church leaders to do a little demonstration of the results of *their*
engineering. Assuming someone didn't beat me to it.
Lets see, Dobson, Falwell, Robertson Jr (give daddy a taste of his own
philosophy and watch him piss himself and blame Satan) would be a good
start.
ehollo
"Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:48j5dnF...@individual.net...
dishes, our cars, take care of our children, work in construction? or do you
mean the criminals who start an illegal war?
>
>
> Jim E
>
>
>
cyr...@yahoo.com
In this case, I think the criminals under discussion are the ones
working illegally for slave wages, driving down labor markets, and
unfairly burdening social support systems such as schools, and
hospitals.
I hate to break this to you, but the guys who started the Iraq war
(president and congress) are the people who make the laws. They get to
say what is legal or illegal. In this country anyway.
ehollo
<cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143258154.8...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
understand why people are happy to go and have their lawn mowed by illegal
immigrants, but then watch Lou Dobbs or another white man (and it really
doesn't help the cause by showing a bunch of white men at the border) and
get all riled up. What needs to happen is some educating of people about
exactly these people come into the country, and why exactly people hire
them, and why exactly when most people look at thme, they see only two
things: criminal or slave.
Yes, very true, Congress and the president do make the laws. For the US, not
the world, however. And without U.N. sanctioning, this is an illegal war.
cyr...@yahoo.com
ehollo wrote:
> >
> Fair enough. But wages will not change.
Wages would change if our labor laws were enforced.
> Americans want cheap. I just don't
> understand why people are happy to go and have their lawn mowed by illegal
> immigrants, but then watch Lou Dobbs or another white man (and it really
> doesn't help the cause by showing a bunch of white men at the border) and
> get all riled up. What needs to happen is some educating of people about
> exactly these people come into the country, and why exactly people hire
> them, and why exactly when most people look at thme, they see only two
> things: criminal or slave.
What needs to happen is that the people who exploit illegal labor by
violating our nations labor laws, and paying slave wages, need to go to
prison.
I know exactly the way to do it:
Offer rewards to illegals for turning in their employers. Fast track to
citizenship, and fat cash awards (taken from the bank acccounts of the
illegal employer) offered as a reward for testifying against the
exploitive employer.
If the illegals paid all the same taxes as US citizens, and worked at
the same labor rates as native born citizens, then there would not be
an issue with their presence. Then they would truly be an asset to the
country, and not the monumental drain that they are currently.
Ask me if I care if a farmer can't compete without slave labor. Slavery
was abolished in this country for a reason, and the desire for greater
profit is no excuse to reintroduce it.
>
> Yes, very true, Congress and the president do make the laws. For the US, not
> the world, however. And without U.N. sanctioning, this is an illegal war.
Ok, in the country of UN land, wherever that is, the war may be
illegal. Here in the USA it's not. Immoral and stupid, maybe. But not
illegal.
Jim E
Knock yourself out, religious loons are as bad as leftists, control freaks
all.
Jim E
Jim E
"ehollo" <eho...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:TM1Vf.121$qm2.22@trnddc03...
I mean illegal aliens you twit.
What illegal war?
Lay off the crack for a day or two.
Jim E
Jim E
Either is bad, just mine the border, problem solved.
>
> Yes, very true, Congress and the president do make the laws. For the US,
> not the world, however. And without U.N. sanctioning, this is an illegal
> war.
Thankfully your opinion of what is legal or not is worthless.
Jim E
Jim E
<cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143289511.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> ehollo wrote:
>> >
>> Fair enough. But wages will not change.
>
> Wages would change if our labor laws were enforced.
>
>> Americans want cheap. I just don't
>> understand why people are happy to go and have their lawn mowed by
>> illegal
>> immigrants, but then watch Lou Dobbs or another white man (and it really
>> doesn't help the cause by showing a bunch of white men at the border) and
>> get all riled up. What needs to happen is some educating of people about
>> exactly these people come into the country, and why exactly people hire
>> them, and why exactly when most people look at thme, they see only two
>> things: criminal or slave.
>
> What needs to happen is that the people who exploit illegal labor by
> violating our nations labor laws, and paying slave wages, need to go to
> prison.
>
> I know exactly the way to do it:
>
> Offer rewards to illegals for turning in their employers. Fast track to
> citizenship, and fat cash awards (taken from the bank acccounts of the
> illegal employer) offered as a reward for testifying against the
> exploitive employer.
>
> If the illegals paid all the same taxes as US citizens, and worked at
> the same labor rates as native born citizens, then there would not be
> an issue with their presence.
The hell there wouldn't, they would be stealing jobs from citizens.
There is no justification for illegals to remain in this country. Let them
go home and fix their own country if they want a better life.
They are nothing but thieves.
Jim E
G*rd*n
> > the same labor rates as native born citizens, then there would not be
> > an issue with their presence.
"Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu>:
> The hell there wouldn't, they would be stealing jobs from citizens.
> ...
That is incorrect. You evidently don't understand capitalism.
Jobs are not objects like gold bricks, they are active relations
between people. When people get jobs and work productively,
they produce wealth; when wealth is produced, some of it can
be used as capital; when capital is made use of, it produces
more jobs and more wealth. It doesn't matter whether the
jobs are being performed by illegal aliens, legal aliens, or
citizens. The main difference between illegal aliens and
everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
Salah Jafar
SJ
cyr...@yahoo.com
G*rd*n wrote:
> The main difference between illegal aliens and
> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that citizens
pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair burden
on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
public infrastructure.
yossarian
"R.D. Heilman" <rd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:SGZUf.1605$qe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> news:DfZUf.11872$w86....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> > Jim E wrote:
> > > An initiative has been filed in Olympia that when passed
> > > would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and
all
> > > illegal aliens.
> > > This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
> > > supporting criminals.
> > > It's about time.
> > >
> This is cruel
Vincente Fox is cruel. Perhaps you would do a rethink if you got in car
accident, and
you had to go to an emergency room, God forbid. Just trying to impress a
point, not wish anybody ill.
Ideally I would like illegal immigration arrested at the border, but our
federal government won't do that.
Again I hope this never happeens to anybody, but how would it feel if your
dyslexic child was passed over in school
in order to teach English to the children of illegals. R.D. I would love to
see well intentioned folks as yourself throwing up pickets
at the Mexican embassy and others of their ilk. Why doesn't that happen?!
Yossarian
yossarian
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e03r8h$rb0$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > If the illegals paid all the same taxes as US citizens, and worked at
> > > the same labor rates as native born citizens, then there would not be
> > > an issue with their presence.
>
> "Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu>:
> > The hell there wouldn't, they would be stealing jobs from citizens.
> > ...
>
> That is incorrect. You evidently don't understand capitalism.
>
The hell you say!
> Jobs are not objects like gold bricks, they are active relations
> between people. When people get jobs and work productively,
> they produce wealth; when wealth is produced, some of it can
> be used as capital; when capital is made use of, it produces
> more jobs and more wealth. It doesn't matter whether the
> jobs are being performed by illegal aliens, legal aliens, or
> citizens.
Ever heard of the Iron Law of Wages and Rents?
The main difference between illegal aliens and
> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
Ever been to East Los?
Yossarian
yossarian
If you want to talk about the illegal war, feel free to start a new thread.
We were talking about illegal aliens.
Yossarian
> >
> >
> > Jim E
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Jim E
WALOS
They are motivated to work for less, thereby depressing wages, and stealing
jobs.
They are motivated to use the entire tax supported infrastructure for which
they pay little or no tax.
Shit in this state illegals get a tuition break for college.
They pay resident tuition as opposed to out of state tuition.
They shouldn't even be allowed in the damn college let alone be given a
bonus for being criminals.
Drive them all out, and mine the border.
Jim E
Jim E
"Salah Jafar" <cod...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:okfVf.1799$f21.733@trnddc01...
Yes, from now on the shit dipped palislimes will receive nothing.
Shit be upon allah.
Jim E
Maxwell Edison
says...
Some day the "criminals" will go on strike and JimE will blame them for
the high cost of food.
--
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." - Johann
Goethe
Maxwell Edison
says...
JimE is as least consistent. He hates *all* Semites.
ehollo
<cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143314644....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
So, why not offer the guest worker program? A wall will not make this
problem go away. If they are on a guest worker program, they will at least
pay taxes, and that can go towards social services.
ehollo
Yeah, those white people lining up for jobs are really angry at them. Let me
ask you something: if you were impoverished and born in a brutal
environment, would you appreciate a neighbor that mined its border? You have
seen the Statue of Liberty, haven't you?
>
> Jim E
>
ehollo
so-called laws.
>
> Jim E
>
ehollo
no need to indulge in ad hominem attacks if you have no point as well, okay?
that's just simple debate strategy/
>
>
> Jim E
>
yossarian
That's the solution; instead of of fighting social injustice, you just turn
tail and run. There are 200 million Chinese
getting the worst of it in China. Let's take them in, too.
You have
> seen the Statue of Liberty, haven't you?
Yeah, can we plant that thing on the Suez canal where it would be more
fitting? As to the "New Colossus" that was written(1883) when the West was
still a big giant empty. By your standards a grown adult would be
responsible for a marriage vow made as a 6 year old.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=119&letter=L
Bio of Emma Lazarus
American poet; born July 22, 1849, in New York city; died there Nov. 19,
1887; daughter of Moses and Esther (Nathan) Lazarus. She was educated by
private tutors, and early manifested poetic taste and talent. The first
stimulus to her muse was offered by the Civil war. A collection of her
"Poems and Translations," verses written between the ages of fourteen and
seventeen, appeared in 1867 (New York), and was commended by William Cullen
Bryant. This volume was followed, in 1871, by "Admetus, and Other Poems"
(ib.). The title-poem was dedicated "To my friend Ralph Waldo Emerson,"
whose works and personality were exercising an abiding influence upon the
poet's intellectual growth. During the next decade, in which "Phantasies"
and "Epochs" were written, her poems appeared chiefly in "Lippincott's
Magazine" and "Scribner's Monthly."
(see image) Emma Lazarus.
By this time her work had won recognition abroad. Her first prose
production, "Alide: An Episode ofGoethe's Life," treating of the Fredericka
Brion incident, was published in 1874 (Philadelphia), and was followed by
"The Spagnoletto" (1876), a drama, and by "Poems and Ballads of Heinrich
Heine" (New York, 1881), to which a biographical sketch of Heine was
prefixed. Her renderings of some of Heine's verse are considered among the
best in English. In April, 1882, she published in "The Century" the article
"Was the Earl of Beaconsfield a Representative Jew?" Her statement of the
reasons for answering this question in the affirmative may be taken to close
what may be termed the Hellenic and journeyman period of Emma Lazarus' life,
during which her subjects were drawn from classic and romantic sources.
What was needed to make her a poet of the people as well as of the literary
gild was a great theme, the establishment of instant communication between
some stirring reality and her still-hidden and irresolute subjectivity. Such
a theme was provided by the immigration of Russian Jews to America,
consequent upon the proscriptive May Laws of 1881. She rose to the defense
of her race in powerful articles contributed to "The Century" (May, 1882,
and Feb., 1883). Hitherto her life had held no Jewish inspiration. Though of
Sephardic stock, and ostensibly Orthodox in belief, her family had hitherto
not participated in the activities of the Synagogue or of the Jewish
community. Contact with the unfortunates from Russia led her to study the
Bible, the Hebrew language, Judaism, and Jewish history. Besides, she
suggested, and in part saw executed, plans for the welfare of the
immigrants. The literary fruits of identification with her race were poems
like "The Crowing of the Red Cock," "The Banner of the Jew," "The Choice,"
"The New Ezekiel," "The Dance to Death" (a strong, though unequally executed
drama), and her last published work (March, 1887), "By the Waters of
Babylon: Little Poems in Prose," which, aglow with "a gleam of the solemn
fire of the Hebrew prophets," constitutes her strongest claim to a foremost
rank in American literature.
(see image) Tablet with Poem by Emma Lazarus Affixed to the Liberty
Monument, New York.
During the same period (1882-87) she translated the Hebrew poets of medieval
Spain with the aid of the German versions of Michael Sachs and
AbrahamGeiger, and wrote articles, signed and unsigned, upon Jewish subjects
for the Jewish press, besides essays on "Bar Kochba," "Henry Wadsworth
Long-fellow," "M. Renan and the Jews," etc., for Jewish literary
associations, all the while continuing her purely literary and critical work
in the magazines in such articles as "Tommaso Salvini," "Salvini's 'King
Lear,'" "Emerson's Personality," "Heine, the Poet," "A Day in Surrey with
William Morris," etc. Her most notable series of articles was that entitled
"An Epistle to the Hebrews" ("The American Hebrew," Nov. 10, 1882-Feb. 24,
1883), in which she discussed the Jewish problems of the day, urged a
technical and a Jewish education for Jews, and ranged herself among the
advocates of an independent Jewish nationality and of Jewish repatriation in
Palestine. The only collection of poems issued during this period was "Songs
of a Semite: The Dance to Death and Other Poems" (New York, 1882), dedicated
to the memory of George Eliot. After her death appeared "The Poems of Emma
Lazarus" (2 vols., Boston and New York, 1889), which comprise such of her
poetic work in previous collections, in periodical publications, and from
among her literary remains as her executors deemed proper to preserve in
permanent form.
Emma Lazarus counted among her friends many of the prominent literary men of
the day. Doubtless she is the most distinguished literary figure produced by
American Jewry, and possibly the most eminent poet among Jews since Heine
and Judah Löb Gordon. From a point of view transcending the racial, she
ranks high as a writer; and her later work would seem to indicate that, if
days had been granted her, she might have risen to a place in the first
class. In May, 1903, a bronze tablet commemorative of her was placed inside
the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor.
Yossarian
>
> >
> > Jim E
> >
>
>
Jim E
I don't give a damn about being appreciated.
I do give a damn about a flood of desperate foreigners who will work for
peanuts, use our medical and educational infrastructure for free, pollute
our culture,
And laugh in our faces for not liking it.
When that statue was put up the country was not already flooded with illegal
parasites.
That statue also was built to commemorate the LEGAL immigration that founded
this country.
It is way past time to pull in the welcome mat and bolt the door.
Jim E
Jim E
What has that bit of stupidity got to do with us being up to our eyeballs in
goddam beanburners?
Jim E
Jim E
>
> <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1143314644....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> G*rd*n wrote:
>>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
>>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
>>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
>>
>> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
>> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
>> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that citizens
>> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair burden
>> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
>> public infrastructure.
>>
>
> So, why not offer the guest worker program?
So the solution is to lagitamize illegal aliens?
That sounds like the typical feel good, do nothing answer I'd expect from
the left.
Jim E
G*rd*n
> >>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
> >>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
> >>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
<cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
> >> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
> >> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that citizens
> >> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair burden
> >> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
> >> public infrastructure.
Well, of course, I'm just going from observation and
experience, which you don't seem to think is a requirement.
For instance, "they do not pay the same taxes that citizens
pay." Where do you get that? If they are on somebody's
books, they pay exactly the same taxes everyone else pays,
they are faking being citizens or legal immigrants, so they
have to put in the same performance. They may actually pay
more taxes because of being afraid to ask for refunds from
IRS. If they are being paid off the books, then they are
getting sub-minimum wage and there would be very little tax
to get anyway. Being uninsured, if you are talking about
medical insurance, is hardly confined to illegal immigrants,
it's the lot of forty or fifty million people in the U.S.
That is the way we choose to fund medical care. It does not
make a lot of sense (except for those who profit from it),
but there it is. Public schools are funded from property and
state taxes which illegal immigrants pay just as others do:
directly, or indirectly through rents and other such payments.
In the area where I live, landlords are very happy to get
Mexican and Central American tenants because, as I said above,
they are highly motivated to do well and they stay out of
trouble -- they keep their apartments clean and pay the
rent.
I've already discussed the fallacy of "depressed wage rates"
but we can do it again if you like. After all, this is Usenet.
The main thing that depresses illegal immigrants' wages are
the laws against them that you're so fond of. As with the
Drug War and so many other things, the law aggravates the
problem it was supposed to solve.
"ehollo" <eho...@verizon.net>:
> > So, why not offer the guest worker program?
"Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu>:
> So the solution is to lagitamize illegal aliens?
> That sounds like the typical feel good, do nothing answer I'd expect from
> the left.
As opposed to the feel-bad, do-evil answer we get from the
Right.
What's the problem, other than class prejudice and racism?
I don't see it. The Mexicans, Guatemalans, etc., want to
come here, work, make some money, and in general get into the
American way of life. The overwhelming majority are honest,
hard-working, clean, neat, law-abiding, peaceful, and respect
property values while at the same time understanding and
undertaking community responsibility. They even have rather
conservative social values, by and large. They show a lot
more initiative and energy than a good many of the native-
born. Let them.
Kitty
If they are HONEST--they obey laws, esp. laws of a foreign country when they
are IN a foreign country.
If they are so hard working--let them work hard going through the legal
avenues to get here!!!!
Kitty
Lets Roll
>> >>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
>> >>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
>> >>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
>
> <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
>> >> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
>> >> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that
>> >> citizens
>> >> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair
>> >> burden
>> >> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
>> >> public infrastructure.
>
>
> Well, of course, I'm just going from observation and
> experience, which you don't seem to think is a requirement.
> For instance, "they do not pay the same taxes that citizens
> pay." Where do you get that? If they are on somebody's
> books, they pay exactly the same taxes everyone else pays,
> they are faking being citizens or legal immigrants, so they
> have to put in the same performance. They may actually pay
> more taxes because of being afraid to ask for refunds from
BZZZZZZZTTTTTTT. Wrong.
If they are on payroll with a fake ID they claim so many dependents until
virtually nothing is withheld from their checks in taxes. If they actually
trouble themselves to apply for a TIN and file their taxes, they again claim
so many dependents that after the get the EIC, they get more back than they
paid in.
> IRS. If they are being paid off the books, then they are
> getting sub-minimum wage and there would be very little tax
Not if they are paid like contractors as so many of them are. They just
don't get quite as many thousands for a job as a legitimate contractor who
pays his licensing and insurance fees and other costs of conducting
legitimate business.
> to get anyway. Being uninsured, if you are talking about
> medical insurance, is hardly confined to illegal immigrants,
> it's the lot of forty or fifty million people in the U.S.
> That is the way we choose to fund medical care. It does not
> make a lot of sense (except for those who profit from it),
So, according to you, since we can't afford to provide medical care to 40 or
50 million citizens and legal residents, it is a benefit to go ahead and
provide free medical care to another 20 million illegal aliens, who are
incidentally, infected with multitudes of third world, life threatening
diseases like MTB. And that is outside the fact that Mexico regularly sends
their ambulances loaded with critical care Mexicans who cannot pay their
medical care in Mexico to dump their loads on the door steps of US hospitals
along all the border counties. How very compassionate of you. I'm sure the
working poor of America appreciate your concern.
> but there it is. Public schools are funded from property and
> state taxes which illegal immigrants pay just as others do:
> directly, or indirectly through rents and other such payments.
Two or three illegal alien families with 10-15 kids between them living in a
residence intended for and zoned for a single family with no more than the
average of 2 or 3 kids does not pay enough property taxes into the system to
support the costs of educating their packs of anchor brats. That's why all
the school districts in cities where there are illegal aliens are going
broke. And that does not include the extraordinary burden of additonal
costs to teach anchor brats who cannot speak English, and with more than a
60% drop out rate because neither they nor anyone in their family values
education in the first place.
> In the area where I live, landlords are very happy to get
> Mexican and Central American tenants because, as I said above,
> they are highly motivated to do well and they stay out of
> trouble -- they keep their apartments clean and pay the
> rent.
>
a.k.a slum lords. I suppose they kin to the land lords up in NY last year
who were incarcerated when it was discovered they were renting single family
residences to packs of more than 60 illegal aliens; the photographs of
Mexicans stacked like cordwood in the houses were .... fascinating.
> I've already discussed the fallacy of "depressed wage rates"
> but we can do it again if you like. After all, this is Usenet.
> The main thing that depresses illegal immigrants' wages are
> the laws against them that you're so fond of. As with the
> Drug War and so many other things, the law aggravates the
> problem it was supposed to solve.
>
Uh huh... why don't we just repeal the laws against slavery and be done with
it?
Then people like you would be happy.
Get a Life
Capture will no longer mean just a free ride home, it will also mean 5 years
PRISON time!
Thank you!!!
AMEN!!
"Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:48j5dnF...@individual.net...
> An initiative has been filed in Olympia that when passed
> would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and all
> illegal aliens.
> This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
> supporting criminals.
> It's about time.
>
>
>
> Jim E
>
>
>
Sheldon Levine
>
> Capture will no longer mean just a free ride home, it will also mean 5 years
> PRISON time!
>
> Thank you!!!
>
> AMEN!!
>
refuse to take back it citizens once they are felons here.
Jim E
"Sheldon Levine" <The Machine> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e90ddf47...@text.giganews.com...
>> Even better: being an illegal alien is to be a FELONY!!
>>
>> Capture will no longer mean just a free ride home, it will also mean 5
>> years
>> PRISON time!
>>
>> Thank you!!!
>>
>> AMEN!!
>>
> The felonies will be commuted to simple deportation. Of course Mexico
> will
> refuse to take back it citizens once they are felons here.
So we air drop them, no problem.
You clean up the mess.
Jim E
>> >>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
>> >>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
>> >>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
>
> <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
>> >> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
>> >> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that
>> >> citizens
>> >> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair
>> >> burden
>> >> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
>> >> public infrastructure.
>
>
> Well, of course, I'm just going from observation and
> experience, which you don't seem to think is a requirement.
> For instance, "they do not pay the same taxes that citizens
> pay." Where do you get that? If they are on somebody's
> books,
That's the point, they aren't on anyones books.
No employer or employee taxes.
G*rd*n
Do they? I'd like to see the statistics on that one. Claiming
a lot of dependents used to be a red flag to the IRS and
probably still is, and the second-too-last thing an illegal
immigrant wants is to be noticed by the IRS. The smartest
thing is to overpay and avoid filing at all.
> > IRS. If they are being paid off the books, then they are
> > getting sub-minimum wage and there would be very little tax
>
> Not if they are paid like contractors as so many of them are. They just
> don't get quite as many thousands for a job as a legitimate contractor who
> pays his licensing and insurance fees and other costs of conducting
> legitimate business.
If they are real contractors they are going to be entering
the mainstream and they are going to pay taxes, either directly
or if they have a protector through someone who is fronting
for them. If they are raking leaves for four dollars an hour,
that kind of contractor, they are not going to pay a significant
amount of taxes anyway.
Either they will be below the radar or in the radar, and in
the second case they will have to fly the same way everyone
else does, that is, pay taxes. Forget the tax thing, it does
not aid your argument and you will wind up being embarrassed
by it.
> > to get anyway. Being uninsured, if you are talking about
> > medical insurance, is hardly confined to illegal immigrants,
> > it's the lot of forty or fifty million people in the U.S.
> > That is the way we choose to fund medical care. It does not
> > make a lot of sense (except for those who profit from it),
>
> So, according to you, since we can't afford to provide medical care to 40 or
> 50 million citizens and legal residents, it is a benefit to go ahead and
> provide free medical care to another 20 million illegal aliens, who are
> incidentally, infected with multitudes of third world, life threatening
> diseases like MTB. And that is outside the fact that Mexico regularly sends
> their ambulances loaded with critical care Mexicans who cannot pay their
> medical care in Mexico to dump their loads on the door steps of US hospitals
> along all the border counties. How very compassionate of you. I'm sure the
> working poor of America appreciate your concern.
Let's skip the apocryphal atrocity stories.
We can perfectly well afford to provide medical care to our
people, we just choose to do it in an extremely peculiar
way with the result that poor people, regardless of their
status with respect to legal residency, are treated in the
most expensive way possible, in emergency rooms. This has
nothing to do with illegal immigration.
> > but there it is. Public schools are funded from property and
> > state taxes which illegal immigrants pay just as others do:
> > directly, or indirectly through rents and other such payments.
>
> Two or three illegal alien families with 10-15 kids between them living in a
> residence intended for and zoned for a single family with no more than the
> average of 2 or 3 kids does not pay enough property taxes into the system to
> support the costs of educating their packs of anchor brats. That's why all
> the school districts in cities where there are illegal aliens are going
> broke. And that does not include the extraordinary burden of additonal
> costs to teach anchor brats who cannot speak English, and with more than a
> 60% drop out rate because neither they nor anyone in their family values
> education in the first place.
Again, I'd like to see the facts, not just atrocity stories.
I live in a neighborhood with a substantial number of Mexican
residents and I don't see them with particularly larger families
than other kinds of people.
> > In the area where I live, landlords are very happy to get
> > Mexican and Central American tenants because, as I said above,
> > they are highly motivated to do well and they stay out of
> > trouble -- they keep their apartments clean and pay the
> > rent.
> a.k.a slum lords. I suppose they kin to the land lords up in NY last year
> who were incarcerated when it was discovered they were renting single family
> residences to packs of more than 60 illegal aliens; the photographs of
> Mexicans stacked like cordwood in the houses were .... fascinating.
More apocryphal atrocity stories. Do you make them up
or do people like you pass them around?
> > I've already discussed the fallacy of "depressed wage rates"
> > but we can do it again if you like. After all, this is Usenet.
> > The main thing that depresses illegal immigrants' wages are
> > the laws against them that you're so fond of. As with the
> > Drug War and so many other things, the law aggravates the
> > problem it was supposed to solve.
> >
> Uh huh... why don't we just repeal the laws against slavery and be done with
> it?
> Then people like you would be happy.
You've got things mixed up. I am the person who believes
freedom is good. You are the person who believes in locking
people up to keep them under control, and your justification
is the usual collection of racist fables. If you're going to
make a case that illegal immigrants are doing economic or
social harm, you'd better get some real facts.
cyr...@yahoo.com
> G*rd*n wrote:
> > >>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
> > >>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
> > >>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
>
> <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the table,
> > >> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across the
> > >> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that citizens
> > >> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair burden
> > >> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all other
> > >> public infrastructure.
>
>
> Well, of course, I'm just going from observation and
> experience, which you don't seem to think is a requirement.
> For instance, "they do not pay the same taxes that citizens
> pay." Where do you get that?
You think those day laborer guys waiting on the corner to get picked up
by contractors pay federal income tax? Or state income tax? Do you
think their employer is contributing to workers compensation?
These guys work for cash in hand, and thats it. People say illegals pay
taxes, but the only taxes they pay are sales tax, and unavoidable taxes
like bridge tolls. This is actually a pretty good argument for
replacing income tax with a national sales tax, come to think of it,
but that's another topic.
> Being uninsured, if you are talking about
> medical insurance, is hardly confined to illegal immigrants,
> it's the lot of forty or fifty million people in the U.S.
There is a difference between the uninsured citizen, and the uninsured
illegal immigrant. The uninsured citizen has been a legal member of the
society, and is paying into the societal system through their taxes.
They didn't show up in a hospital one week after swimming the border
making demands for healthcare.
> That is the way we choose to fund medical care. It does not
> make a lot of sense (except for those who profit from it),
> but there it is. Public schools are funded from property and
> state taxes which illegal immigrants pay just as others do:
> directly, or indirectly through rents and other such payments.
You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS?? Nor do they pay state income tax. Like I
said before, the only taxes they pay are sales tax, and maybe a
cigarette tax. To pretend that they pay all the same taxes as legal
citizens is ludicrous.
>
> What's the problem, other than class prejudice and racism?
There's another thing you open border people refuse to acknowledge. You
will not accept that the United States has a duty, and an obligation to
manage the rate of migration into the country. It's funny how this
disavowal of common sense only applies to the United States. Every
other nation on the planet controls how many people immigrate into
their nation, and no one seems to care. Yet if anyone in the USA
mentions issues of uncontrolled population growth, they're quickly
labeled a racist by the open border crowd.
We can not absorb, tomorrow, the entire population of Southern America.
Not without significant stress and hardship to the citizens of the US,
and probably great harm to the environment as well. There has to be
management of the flow of people, the decisions on how many people
migrate, and where they migrate too, can not be left entirely to mob
rule.
Every other country on the planet does this, and none of them are
protested against. Only the US is targeted as a nation that is
undeserving of having border and immigration control. Why?
Let me give you an example. I lived in Switzerland for a time. One of
their immigration laws allows them to ORDER immigrants to live in
specific canton's or towns. They use this law as a way to intentionally
prevent the formation of ethnic enclaves and ghettos. Can you imagine
the outrage if such a law was proposed in the USA? Ten million
illegal's would be marching the streets burning flags, crying racist
this, and racist that. Yet this law passes without comment when it's
conducted in the middle of progressive Europe.
Peter ML
>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
other people who rent their living space.
The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
these problems would be easier to deal with.
Peter ML
>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the saame for any
Alcibiades
Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
should maybe get out more. Essentially they pay less indirect property
tax per user of those taxes: schools, municipal, hospitals, etc. This
has an immediate, negative impact on al;l users of these services, and
a longer term impact forcing closure of hospitals, which is happening
across the SW states most impacted by these people. That is not to
even mention what's happening to our schools and the education our
children once got in them.
People should quite trying to paint a silver lining around this turd
in the sky. There is nothing good about these people coming up here,
it is all bad, very bad. Legalizing it, bringing in too many poor
"large, fecund families" in any orderly fashion to do the very same
thing they are doing right now will have the very same negative
impact, and multiplied.
David Eduardo
"Peter ML" <lamb...@msu.edu> wrote in message
news:1143480777.9...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
>>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
>>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
>
> Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
> taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
> somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the saame for any
> other people who rent their living space.
And the property tax is part of the justification for setting the rental
rate.
Jim E
> "
> You've got things mixed up. I am the person who believes
> freedom is good. You are the person who believes in locking
> people up to keep them under control, and your justification
> is the usual collection of racist fables. If you're going to
> make a case that illegal immigrants are doing economic or
> social harm, you'd better get some real facts.
We don't want them locked up.
We want them tossed out of the country.
We want them erased.
They leave with the clothes on their back, any other property goes to the
national treasury.
Jim E
Jim E
We don't need them.
We don't want them
Why let them in?
Jim E
G*rd*n
> >think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
> >labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
"Peter ML" <lamb...@msu.edu>:
> Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
> taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
> somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the saame for any
> other people who rent their living space.
That's too subtle for them.
You can tell from the atrocity stories that we are in
the realm of fantasy and fable, in this case racist
fantasy and fable. Otherwise rational, substantiated
arguments would have been presented (if there were
any, which there aren't).
G*rd*n
>
> >>You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
> >>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
> >>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
> >
> >Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
> >taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
> >somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
> >other people who rent their living space.
> >
> >The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
> >for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
> >crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
> >supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
> >these problems would be easier to deal with.
Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedæmon.net>:
> Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
> dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
> should maybe get out more. ...
It's not a matter of getting out more. It's a matter of
statistics. Where are they?
G*rd*n
"ehollo" <eho...@verizon.net>:
> Yeah, those white people lining up for jobs are really angry at them. Let me
> ask you something: if you were impoverished and born in a brutal
> environment, would you appreciate a neighbor that mined its border? You have
> seen the Statue of Liberty, haven't you?
There is no point in asking people to be sorry for other
people if they aren't already.
There is some point is exposing the lies, fables and fantasies
generated by racism and xenophobia. (I believe I've seen
every classical race fable repeated in the last week or two.)
After that it might be possible to have a ratioanl
discussion.
Jim E
The simple fact is that they have NO RIGHT to be here.
Try to weasel word your way around that one.
Mine the border.
$100 bounty on illegals.
` Jim E
Jim E
Have you noticed that the damn catholics are rooting for the illegals also?
Where is the screaming from the left about church involvement in politics?
All the damn catholics see is paying parishioners.
Time to start shooting people.
Jim E
Alcibiades
wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2006 09:33:20 -0800, "Peter ML" <lamb...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >>You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
>> >>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
>> >>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
>> >
>> >Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
>> >taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
>> >somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
>> >other people who rent their living space.
>> >
>> >The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
>> >for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
>> >crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
>> >supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
>> >these problems would be easier to deal with.
>
>Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedęmon.net>:
>> Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
>> dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
>> should maybe get out more. ...
>
>It's not a matter of getting out more. It's a matter of
>statistics. Where are they?
>
Statistics? It's a matter of knowing these people and their families,
which I have for many years. The call for statistics is the call of
the ignorant usenetter. You have all of Google at your fingertips to
find the statistics you require, and they are there, if you actually
want to know. I'm not an unpaid research assistant for lazy slackjaws.
Go to it, it's not hard to find.
G*rd*n
> >> >>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
> >> >>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
> >> >Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
> >> >taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
> >> >somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
> >> >other people who rent their living space.
> >> >
> >> >The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
> >> >for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
> >> >crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
> >> >supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
> >> >these problems would be easier to deal with.
Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedęmon.net>:
> >> Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
> >> dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
> >> should maybe get out more. ...
g...@panix.com (G*rd*n):
> >It's not a matter of getting out more. It's a matter of
> >statistics. Where are they?
Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedęmon.net>:
> Statistics? It's a matter of knowing these people and their families,
> which I have for many years. The call for statistics is the call of
> the ignorant usenetter. You have all of Google at your fingertips to
> find the statistics you require, and they are there, if you actually
> want to know. I'm not an unpaid research assistant for lazy slackjaws.
> Go to it, it's not hard to find.
In other words, you don't have any facts. Better go get
some. Or make them up, at least.
Get a Life
with some extra special nastiness for us all.
Not all of these illegal's are Mexican!
"Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu> wrote in message
news:48ri5vF...@individual.net...
G*rd*n
> >> >> >>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
> >> >> >>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
> >
> >> >> >Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
> >> >> >taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
> >> >> >somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
> >> >> >other people who rent their living space.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
> >> >> >for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
> >> >> >crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
> >> >> >supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
> >> >> >these problems would be easier to deal with.
Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedæmon.net>:
> >> >> Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
> >> >> dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
> >> >> should maybe get out more. ...
g...@panix.com (G*rd*n):
> >> >It's not a matter of getting out more. It's a matter of
> >> >statistics. Where are they?
Alcibiades <was-scipio@lacedæmon.net>:
> >> Statistics? It's a matter of knowing these people and their families,
> >> which I have for many years. The call for statistics is the call of
> >> the ignorant usenetter. You have all of Google at your fingertips to
> >> find the statistics you require, and they are there, if you actually
> >> want to know. I'm not an unpaid research assistant for lazy slackjaws.
> >> Go to it, it's not hard to find.
g...@panix.com (G*rd*n):
> >In other words, you don't have any facts. Better go get
> >some. Or make them up, at least.
Starkiller© <NoSpam.S...@hotmail.com>:
> Why don't you show some statistics that show just how much tax is paid
> by illegals then. ...
Because I'm not the one asserting that there is some kind
of problem which needs to be addressed by government force,
repression, and interference in people's lives. You are.
If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
millions of innocent people, partly at my expense, you'd
better have some justification for it besides the moronic
racism I've seen thus far.
Stark...@white-star.com
You're the one making the claim that they pay their fair share. Prove
it. Don't need any proof that they don't pay taxes. If they haven't
filled out a W4 because they're illegal then they don't pay. You think
a few cents on a hamburger here and there or a few hundred a year in
property tax on them is fair when everyone else here legally pays out
the nose?
You want to give them medical coverage and welfare and food stamps free
education et al then pay for it out of your own pocket. You seem real
happy to support them at "your expense."
H. Reader
No, the simplest solution, and the one that serves Americans, is
to deport illegal aliens.
H. Reader
"David Eduardo" <amd...@pacbell.com> wrote in message news:ymWVf.42928$_S7....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
And packing a dozen people into a two-bedroom apartment pretty
much undermines the property tax. Keep spinning, Davo.
>
>
H. Reader
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0bc1c$c8$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> >> >>You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
>> >> >>think those crowds of young men standing on the corner waiting for day
>> >> >>labor jobs are HOMEOWNERS??
>
>> >> >Are you stupid? Homeowners are not the only people paying property
>> >> >taxes. As has been pointed out before, the immigrants pay rent to
>> >> >somebody, and those people pay property taxes. It is the same for any
>> >> >other people who rent their living space.
>> >> >
>> >> >The simplest way to address this problem would be make it easy enough
>> >> >for people to immigrate legaly that they would not have to stoop to
>> >> >crossing the border illegally. Then they would be under the
>> >> >supervision of the law instead of operating outside it, and most of
>> >> >these problems would be easier to deal with.
>
>> >> Illegals have large, fecund families, and keep more individuals per
>> >> dwelling. This is not secret knowlege nor is it theoretical, you
>> >> should maybe get out more. ...
>
> g...@panix.com (G*rd*n):
>> >It's not a matter of getting out more. It's a matter of
>> >statistics. Where are they?
>
>> Statistics? It's a matter of knowing these people and their families,
>> which I have for many years. The call for statistics is the call of
>> the ignorant usenetter. You have all of Google at your fingertips to
>> find the statistics you require, and they are there, if you actually
>> want to know. I'm not an unpaid research assistant for lazy slackjaws.
>> Go to it, it's not hard to find.
>
>
> In other words, you don't have any facts. Better go get
> some. Or make them up, at least.
He has the facts. They hurt you, don't they. Check with LA County
about unzoned additions to properties -- you know, garage apartments
and such. You might also get to know some illegals and notice how
many people they can pack into an apartment. Your ignorance
doesn't invalidate the facts.
H. Reader
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0bm9c$hhk$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Good government does use force, repression and interference
in dealing with criminals such as illegal aliens. If only our government
were good.
> You are.
> If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
> millions of innocent people,
Illegal aliens aren't "innocent people."
>partly at my expense, you'd
> better have some justification for it besides the moronic
> racism I've seen thus far.
You really have no argument, do you.
G*rd*n
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>> Because I'm not the one asserting that there is some kind
>> of problem which needs to be addressed by government force,
>> repression, and interference in people's lives.
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> Good government does use force, repression and interference
> in dealing with criminals such as illegal aliens. If only our government
> were good.
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>> You are.
>> If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
>> millions of innocent people,
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> Illegal aliens aren't "innocent people."
_Innocent_ primarily means not doing any harm. Most illegal
immigrants are not innocent only in the sense that innocent
users of some drugs are not innocent: they are declared so by
laws based on prejudice and sadism.
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>>partly at my expense, you'd
>> better have some justification for it besides the moronic
>> racism I've seen thus far.
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> You really have no argument, do you.
Sure I do. It starts off, "That government is best which
governs least" and proposes that coercion should be used
against people only as a last resort, and only against
those who do actual harm.
G*rd*n
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
> > In other words, you don't have any facts. Better go get
> > some. Or make them up, at least.
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> He has the facts. They hurt you, don't they. Check with LA County
> about unzoned additions to properties -- you know, garage apartments
> and such. You might also get to know some illegals and notice how
> many people they can pack into an apartment. Your ignorance
> doesn't invalidate the facts.
If he had any facts he would have presented them. "Unzoned
additions to properties" can be made by anybody, and have
nothing to do with one's immigration status. The same is
true of packing apartments. The only fact being presented
so far is blatant racism. Really, you all should think
about getting hold of some whitewash -- one doesn't do this
sort of thing openly any more.
G*rd*n
> > Because I'm not the one asserting that there is some kind
> > of problem which needs to be addressed by government force,
> > repression, and interference in people's lives. You are.
> > If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
> > millions of innocent people, partly at my expense, you'd
> > better have some justification for it besides the moronic
> > racism I've seen thus far.
Stark...@white-Star.com:
> You're the one making the claim that they pay their fair share. Prove
> it. ...
You don't understand simple logic. You and your friends say
something ought to be done because of some urgent situation
which you say exists. That is, you are making a positive
assertion that has important consequences. I ask for evidence
and reasoning to back up your claims, and it's up to you to
provide it.
As I am sure you would do if you could. Instead we get
the hand-waving above, from which we can easily draw the
conclusion that you don't have any. Better get to work,
find it or make it up.
Sandlin
> Jim E wrote:
> > An initiative has been filed in Olympia that when passed
> > would deny any public services (medical, education, etc.) to any and all
> > illegal aliens.
> > This will save countless millions of dollars that are currently wasted
> > supporting criminals.
> > It's about time.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim E
>
> California already passed exactly the same kind of bill.
>
> It was overturned by the courts.
>
> Good fucking luck.
****************************************************
On what pretext was the California bill overturned? Some kind of
humanitarian BS, or what?
What the hell is wrong with the minds in this country? If you go
to Mexico and tell them you want to live there, the first thing they
ask you is whether or not you have money or an income to support
yourself, because they aren't going to. That's the real world.
Sandlin
cyr...@yahoo.com
federal policy towards immigrants. The court ruled that the state did
not have authority to pass laws that attempted to limit the federal
policy, or something along those lines.
G*rd*n
> > > <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > If the illegals paid all the same taxes as US citizens, and worked at
> > > > the same labor rates as native born citizens, then there would not be
> > > > an issue with their presence.
> >
> > "Jim E" <YD65...@sea.edu>:
> > > The hell there wouldn't, they would be stealing jobs from citizens.
> > > ...
> >
> > That is incorrect. You evidently don't understand capitalism.
"yossarian" <yoss...@chaos.org>:
> The hell you say!
>
> > Jobs are not objects like gold bricks, they are active relations
> > between people. When people get jobs and work productively,
> > they produce wealth; when wealth is produced, some of it can
> > be used as capital; when capital is made use of, it produces
> > more jobs and more wealth. It doesn't matter whether the
> > jobs are being performed by illegal aliens, legal aliens, or
> > citizens.
"yossarian" <yoss...@chaos.org>:
> Ever heard of the Iron Law of Wages and Rents?
A wonderful theory which is unfortunately contradicted
by evidence from the real world. More than one piece of
evidence: as Von Mises pointed out, if the Iron Law of
Wages prevented wages from ever rising, it should also
prevent them from falling, but in fact we observe both
long- and short-term fluctuations in wages. In general,
however, wages have risen in real term, defying Ricardo
(and his disciple Karl Marx).
This is what I mean by not understanding capitalism.
Observe what actually happens: if the capitalists can hire
at relatively low wages, they make bigger profits. But
then what can they do? In a competitive, free-market
form of capitalism, they must reinvest the profits as
capital (or else they will be wiped out by more aggressive
capitalists). But the investment of more capital means that
they must hire more labor and obtain more consumers. The
low-wage worker today is laying the groundwork for higher
wages, more workers and more goods tomorrow. Ricardo (and
Marx and you) go wrong because you presuppose a static
framework of resources, technology and social relations.
But I am not surprised to find 19th-century economics
side-by-side with 19th-century race theory. I invite
you to take a look at the real world, if you can get
away from the scriptures of Ricardo and Marx.
H. Reader
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0c6e9$kvn$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Apparently your commitment to your own ignornace is invincible.
H. Reader
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0c60l$4sk$1...@reader2.panix.com...
They do tremendous harm tothe health of our society, politics,
economy, and environment. They're like a cancer on the nation.
> Most illegal
> immigrants are not innocent only in the sense that innocent
> users of some drugs are not innocent: they are declared so by
> laws based on prejudice and sadism.
So asserting our national sovereignty, protecting or border and
our nation, regulating the number and quality of people who enter
the country amount to "prejudice and sadism?" Hilarious.
> "G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>>>partly at my expense, you'd
>>> better have some justification for it besides the moronic
>>> racism I've seen thus far.
>
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> You really have no argument, do you.
>
>
> Sure I do. It starts off, "That government is best which
> governs least" and proposes that coercion should be used
> against people only as a last resort, and only against
> those who do actual harm.
Right, as illegal aliens are doing harm. Their arrest and
deportation and the prosecution of those who hire them
will solve the problem.
G*rd*n
> >> Good government does use force, repression and interference
> >> in dealing with criminals such as illegal aliens. If only our government
> >> were good.
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
> >>> You are.
> >>> If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
> >>> millions of innocent people,
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> >> Illegal aliens aren't "innocent people."
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
> > _Innocent_ primarily means not doing any harm.
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> They do tremendous harm tothe health of our society, politics,
> economy, and environment. ....
You just can't show any.
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
> > Most illegal
> > immigrants are not innocent only in the sense that innocent
> > users of some drugs are not innocent: they are declared so by
> > laws based on prejudice and sadism.
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
> So asserting our national sovereignty, protecting or border and
> our nation, regulating the number and quality of people who enter
> the country amount to "prejudice and sadism?" Hilarious.
If you think impassable boundaries are such a good thing,
you should then be in favor of setting them up between the
states of the United States, and the counties within the
states.
You might consider tattooing a national ID number on
everyone's forehead as well.
But maybe I shouldn't give you too many ideas....
H. Reader
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0cbie$40n$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>>
>> "G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0c60l$4sk$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> >> Good government does use force, repression and interference
>> >> in dealing with criminals such as illegal aliens. If only our government
>> >> were good.
>
> "G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>> >>> You are.
>> >>> If you want to increase the powers of the State and harass
>> >>> millions of innocent people,
>
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> >> Illegal aliens aren't "innocent people."
>
> "G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>> > _Innocent_ primarily means not doing any harm.
>
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> They do tremendous harm tothe health of our society, politics,
>> economy, and environment. ....
>
>
> You just can't show any.
Evidently you don't read the newspapers or any GAO reports or
any studies done by Borjas at Harvard, among other sources of
information.
> "G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com>:
>> > Most illegal
>> > immigrants are not innocent only in the sense that innocent
>> > users of some drugs are not innocent: they are declared so by
>> > laws based on prejudice and sadism.
>
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> So asserting our national sovereignty, protecting or border and
>> our nation, regulating the number and quality of people who enter
>> the country amount to "prejudice and sadism?" Hilarious.
>
>
> If you think impassable boundaries are such a good thing,
> you should then be in favor of setting them up between the
> states of the United States, and the counties within the
> states.
Really? Why is that?
> You might consider tattooing a national ID number on
> everyone's forehead as well.
No, I'd just like to keep the millions of illegal aliens
parasites out of this country.
> But maybe I shouldn't give you too many ideas....
That's okay. I already have plenty of ideas and new
ones everyday.
Peter ML
They do not cram huge families together because they are Mexican, they
do that because they are poor. The American poor are also more likely
to live in crowded conditions, are you complaining because they don't
pay enough property tax?
You just need to admit that you are a racist pig. Liberty cannot
survive if people are assumed to be unequal.
Alcibiades
wrote:
>> >> >>You must be smoking crack. You think illegals pay PROPERTY TAX???? You
There are no "other words", I said exactly what I meant. Go to Google
Groups and type in the appropriate keywords, we've documented these
things inside and out and ad nauseum, for years, and you can read all
about it. I don't retype the very same text for every uninformed lazy
slackjaw that crossposts to api.
But let's not lose the laughable point of your challenge:
Any readers out there who live in cities and towns with an Illegals
population differ with my assertion that these people have more people
living in their individual domiciles and apartments, more family and
kids packed in there, than do average Americans?
anima...@yahoo.com
> On the topic of hugely overpopulated dwellings:
>
> They do not cram huge families together because they are Mexican, they
> do that because they are poor. The American poor are also more likely
> to live in crowded conditions, are you complaining because they don't
> pay enough property tax?
All Mexicans are not poor, although some of them are poorer
than they would be if they could legitimize their status.
> You just need to admit that you are a racist pig. Liberty cannot
> survive if people are assumed to be unequal.
No one ever admits he (or she) is a racist pig, but I do wish
they would cover up the racism a little. Just as G*rd*n said,
if you look at this discussion and other like it you see every
racist canard that has been used against every minority in
the U.S., the Irish, the Jews, the Italians, Africans, Puerto
Ricans, etc. etc. etc. It's pretty embarassing. Don't racists
use code words any more?
They don't care about liberty though. They are for the use
of government force to preserve their imagined racial status.
What a joke.
anima...@yahoo.com
> > Ever heard of the Iron Law of Wages and Rents?
G*rd*n wrote:
> A wonderful theory which is unfortunately contradicted
> by evidence from the real world. More than one piece of
> evidence: as Von Mises pointed out, if the Iron Law of
> Wages prevented wages from ever rising, it should also
> prevent them from falling, but in fact we observe both
> long- and short-term fluctuations in wages. In general,
> however, wages have risen in real term, defying Ricardo
> (and his disciple Karl Marx).
"Von Mises"!!! Trying to smoke the libertarians out,
G*rd*n? It's no use, they only show up when libertarianism
favors right-wing causes. When it comes to a controversy
where they're supposed to be on the left, like right to work
laws or immigration, they lie very very low.
Jim E
"Sandlin" <sbarr...@netpenny.net> wrote in message
news:1143578217.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Loons like him are immune to reality.
They got 'feelings'.
Jim E
Jim E
"Sandlin" <sbarr...@netpenny.net> wrote in message
news:1143578217.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Loons like him are immune to reality.
Jim E
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:
>
> Because I'm not the one asserting
You weasel wording loser.
The illegals are bleeding the system dry.
If an illegal is brought to an ER, he should be chucked out into the gutter.
Let the parasite bleed to death.
That is what these mexicans are doing to America.
Jim E
Jim E
<Stark...@white-Star.com> wrote in message
news:1143565916.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
You liberals wish to mislabel everything.
INNOCENT ! Horseshit, they are illegals.
Put a bounty on their useless ass and bounce it over the border.
Jim E
Jim E
> G*rd*n
>
>
> You don't understand simple logic.
And you are so busy picking the fly shit from the pepper to see the real
problem.
The problem is a flood of illegals who don't pay taxes, breed like fleas,
and specialize in sucking up taxpayer resources like education,and medical
care.
Ship them back to mexico.
Jim E
Jim E
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:DGfWf.14263$ES3.1199@trnddc02...
Where the hell did that bit of lunacy com from?
You sound like the kind of libloon who has toked way too much BC bud.
You are detached from reality.
Jim E
Jim E
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:
>
>
> _Innocent_ primarily means not doing any harm.
NO, You delusional twit, it means not guilty of the offence noted.
You loons and your relativism must be exterminated before you start to
corrupt the real world.
Jim E
Jim E
>>>>>>>>>>Yo
>
>
> Sure I do. It starts off, "That government is best which
> governs least"
Those despicable mexican parasites are waving mexican flags and demanding
American rights.
That kind of duplicitous stupidity deserves machine gunning them in the
street.
They are PARASITES.
Jim E
Jim E
"H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net> wrote in message news
>
> Evidently you don't read the newspapers or any GAO reports or
> any studies done by Borjas at Harvard, among other sources of
> information.
He's a liberal, he is not in the least affected by reality.
Jim E
Jim E
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message news:e0c6e9$kvn
.
>
> "H. Reader" <histor...@verizon.net>:
>> He has the facts. They hurt you, don't they. Check with LA County
>> about unzoned additions to properties -- you know, garage apartments
>> and such. You might also get to know some illegals and notice how
>> many people they can pack into an apartment. Your ignorance
>> doesn't invalidate the facts.
>
>
> If he had any facts he
You lying sack of shit.
Your denial of reality is in the best traditions of the liberal loser.
Why do you think ER's in the border states are going bankrupt??
Scandinavians who skip out on the bill?
Damn you are one willfully ignorant shit.
Jim E
Jim E
"Peter ML" <lamb...@msu.edu> wrote in message
news:1143588951.9...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> On the topic of hugely overpopulated dwellings:
>
> They do not cram huge families together because they are Mexican, they
> do that because they are poor.
And this gives the what right to be here?
Let them fix their own country, not reduce ours to the level of theirs.
They have no right to be here.
Jim E
Lets Roll
> "Lets Roll" <lets...@meet-me-in-hell.com>:>> > G*rd*n wrote:
>> >> >>> The main difference between illegal aliens and
>> >> >>> everyone else is that the illegal aliens are more motivated
>> >> >>> to do well and stay out of trouble and off Welfare.
>> >
>> > <cyr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> No, the main difference is that illegals usually work under the
>> >> >> table,
>> >> >> at depressed wage rates. This tends to depress wage rates across
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> board at the low end. They also do not pay the same taxes that
>> >> >> citizens
>> >> >> pay, and are typically uninsured. This means they put an uinfair
>> >> >> burden
>> >> >> on social services like emergency rooms, public schools, and all
>> >> >> other
>> >> >> public infrastructure.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, of course, I'm just going from observation and
>> > experience, which you don't seem to think is a requirement.
>> > For instance, "they do not pay the same taxes that citizens
>> > pay." Where do you get that? If they are on somebody's
>> > books, they pay exactly the same taxes everyone else pays,
>> > they are faking being citizens or legal immigrants, so they
>> > have to put in the same performance. They may actually pay
>> > more taxes because of being afraid to ask for refunds from
>>
>> BZZZZZZZTTTTTTT. Wrong.
>> If they are on payroll with a fake ID they claim so many dependents until
>> virtually nothing is withheld from their checks in taxes. If they
>> actually
>> trouble themselves to apply for a TIN and file their taxes, they again
>> claim
>> so many dependents that after the get the EIC, they get more back than
>> they
>> paid in.
>
>
> Do they? I'd like to see the statistics on that one. Claiming
> a lot of dependents used to be a red flag to the IRS and
> probably still is, and the second-too-last thing an illegal
> immigrant wants is to be noticed by the IRS. The smartest
> thing is to overpay and avoid filing at all.
>
Jesus tits. I sure will be glad when some of you ignorant assholes learn
how to use google. It gets damned tedious doing your homework for you. And
it's been around long enough you should have learned how to use it by now.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1995/gg95027.pdf
GAO 1994:
In another effort, as of September 30, 1994, IRS' Criminal Investigation
Division's fraud detection teams identified about 72,000 fraudulent returns
filed electronically and on paper; about 92 percent were returns with EIC
claims. IRS was able to stop about $111 million, or 74 percent, in refunds
from being released to taxpayers. Tax law does not, according to IRS
officials, prohibit illegal aliens from paying taxes or receiving the EIC.
Since taxpayers are not required to identify themselves as illegal aliens on
their tax returns, IRS does not know how many illegal aliens receive EIC
benefits. Information currently reported on tax returns cannot be used to
accurately identify all illegal aliens who file EIC returns. However, some
tax returns contained information that led IRS to conclude that 160,000
taxpayers who had filed for the EIC for tax year 1993 likely were illegal
aliens, and IRS said that most of these claims will be denied because the
taxpayers cannot support their claims.
The Internal Revenue Code does not prohibit illegal aliens from receiving
the EIC if they meet the prescribed eligibility requirements. IRS forms do
not require illegal aliens to identify themselves as such; therefore, IRS
does not know how many illegal aliens may be receiving the EIC. IRS needs an
identification number, normally the taxpayer's SSN, to process a tax return.
IRS assigns a temporary Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) when any
taxpayer files a return with an invalid SSN, a blank space, or the code
"205(c)."13 The designation 205(c) is often used by taxpayers to indicate
they are not eligible to receive an SSN.14 Thus, IRS officials said
taxpayers who enter this code are likely to be illegal aliens. However, IRS'
computers do not tabulate the total number of taxpayers who have entered
205(c) on their tax returns and IRS personnel do not determine whether
illegal aliens or others received the temporary TINs. Limited data from
manual reviews under the 1994 EIC Compliance Initiative show that a minimum
of 160,000 taxpayers, out of about 8.7 million who filed paper returns
claiming the EIC, entered 205(c) instead of an SSN for a qualifying child.
According to IRS officials, the taxpayers who filed these returns likely are
illegal aliens. IRS expects most of these refunds to be denied because
taxpayers will not be able to support their claims. For example, IRS expects
many claims to be denied because dependents will not meet residency
requirements. In addition to the 160,000, an unknown number of illegal
aliens would have received the EIC because the amount they claimed was below
the Compliance Initiative's dollar threshold.
>
>> > IRS. If they are being paid off the books, then they are
>> > getting sub-minimum wage and there would be very little tax
>>
>> Not if they are paid like contractors as so many of them are. They just
>> don't get quite as many thousands for a job as a legitimate contractor
>> who
>> pays his licensing and insurance fees and other costs of conducting
>> legitimate business.
>
>
> If they are real contractors they are going to be entering
> the mainstream and they are going to pay taxes, either directly
> or if they have a protector through someone who is fronting
> for them. If they are raking leaves for four dollars an hour,
> that kind of contractor, they are not going to pay a significant
> amount of taxes anyway.
>
http://taxserve.org/ProgramNewsArticle.cfm?articleID=490
Janette and her husband, Juan, have a continuing argument about taxes. It is
not about who is keeping track of the receipts or who should call the
accountant. They are illegal immigrants, and what they cannot agree about is
whether to file an income tax return.
Once a middle-class professional in Peru, Juan now works in a restaurant in
Nassau County. Fearing prosecution, he insisted that his and his wife's name
be withheld. He argues that filing taxes would expose his illegal status.
Janette, who works as a housekeeper and a baby sitter, counters that filing
a return would show that they are paying their way.
So Janette has filed tax returns since they arrived in New York two years
ago. Juan, who is paid off the books, has not.
While illegal immigrants are breaking the law by working in the United
States, on April 15 they are like everyone else who earns an income. So in
1996, the I.R.S. started issuing individual taxpayer identification numbers
to illegal immigrants and foreigners earning money in this country. The
agency has issued about six million identification numbers since the program
began; it does not know how many went to illegal immigrants. In 2000, the
agency collected $305 million in taxes from people using the identification
numbers and refunded a sizable amount of that, $271 million. (errr... here
is a glaring example of flagrant racial discrimination by the federal
government in relation to illegal alien amnesty... If an American citizen
or legal migrant failed to file their taxes for two years the IRS would be
on them like stink on shit and they might never get out of jail, but there
has been no mention of prosecuting illegal aliens who have failed to file
their taxes in all these talks about amnesty, nor any mention of making any
effort to collect the back taxes... a clear case of discrimination)
Janette's income varies between $300 and $600 a month. She paid a few
hundred dollars in taxes last year, although it was hard to do, she said,
especially since their young daughter has asthma and requires costly
prescriptions. (note: who paid for the costly prescriptions and treatments
for her anchor baby? She sure isn't paying any medical bills on $600 a
month)
Since he is paid off the books and would have to file as a self-employed
worker, Juan is sure that he would have to pay. He works six days a week,
making $400 in a good week. "How am I going to pay taxes if I can't buy a
pair of shoes for my daughter?" Juan said. He said his wife was able to pay
her taxes chiefly because he is the one who pays the bulk of the family's
bills. (Hmmm... I know some people who have families and kids and only make
$10 an hour or about $400 a week gross before taxes, but they have to pay
their taxes. I know a lot more people who make $500 - $600 a week and
manage to pay their taxes and feed, house and clothe their kids and even
keep insurance on their cars and pay for health insurance... there are
definite benefits to being a wetback when it comes to paying taxes)
If officials find that immigrants have fake Social Security identification,
the workers can be in trouble. Mario, who lives in Bushwick, Brooklyn, works
at a restaurant using a Social Security number that he bought from a friend,
and he received a W-2 Form with that number but filed his taxes with the
taxpayer identification number he was issued. I.R.S. officials said that
discrepancy might cost him his refund and expose him to officials'
questions, but tax preparers working in immigrant communities say that has
not happened often. What is more likely to happen, though, is that an
employer will be notified that the Social Security number is fake and then
fire the employee.
"That worries me," Mario said. He expects a refund of more than $2,000 this
year: "It made me happy because that's my money." (cha-ching - there's his
money to pay the coyote to sneak his pregnant wife and 15 kids into the
country to start collecting EIC next year)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84745,00.html
Tuesday, April 22, 2003
While the debate rages, illegal immigrants continue to dump income taxes
into the federal coffers. The latest data shows that two years ago, tax
filers with ITINs sent the IRS $300 million in taxes.
http://www.house.gov/gallegly/press2005/col02-0305immigration.htm
In Fiscal Year 2001, the total cost for emergency medical care for illegal
immigrants in California was more than $648 million. At the same time, the
California Association of Public Hospitals notes that California's public
hospitals face a $600 million a year budget deficit. It doesn't take a
mathematician to see how eliminating illegal immigration would turn a
deficit into a surplus.
But this is not just a California problem. In the last decade, as illegal
immigration has skyrocketed, so have visits to emergency rooms-up 20
percent. Pennsylvania and New Jersey hospitals provided nearly $2 billion in
free emergency and short-term care to uninsured patients in 2002, a large
share of whom were illegal immigrants. In South Carolina, hospitals have
been left with at least $4 million in unpaid maternity bills from illegal
immigrants.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11061
Sen. John Kyl, R-AZ, a key member of the House/Senate conference committee
that produced the final Medicare bill, sponsored an amendment reimbursing
hospitals for federally mandated treatment of illegal aliens. The provision
provides $1 billion over four years in payments to border area hospitals,
including $150 million to Arizona facilities struggling under the strain of
caring for illegal aliens.
(Note: So much for them paying in enough taxes to cover the costs of their
"free" medical care, let alone all the other infrastructure required to
support their sorry asses.)
> Either they will be below the radar or in the radar, and in
> the second case they will have to fly the same way everyone
> else does, that is, pay taxes. Forget the tax thing, it does
> not aid your argument and you will wind up being embarrassed
> by it.
>
Maybe if you didn't shove your foot in your mouth all the way up to your hip
you wouldn't look so utterly foolish.
>
>> > to get anyway. Being uninsured, if you are talking about
>> > medical insurance, is hardly confined to illegal immigrants,
>> > it's the lot of forty or fifty million people in the U.S.
>> > That is the way we choose to fund medical care. It does not
>> > make a lot of sense (except for those who profit from it),
>>
>> So, according to you, since we can't afford to provide medical care to 40
>> or
>> 50 million citizens and legal residents, it is a benefit to go ahead and
>> provide free medical care to another 20 million illegal aliens, who are
>> incidentally, infected with multitudes of third world, life threatening
>> diseases like MTB. And that is outside the fact that Mexico regularly
>> sends
>> their ambulances loaded with critical care Mexicans who cannot pay their
>> medical care in Mexico to dump their loads on the door steps of US
>> hospitals
>> along all the border counties. How very compassionate of you. I'm sure
>> the
>> working poor of America appreciate your concern.
>
>
> Let's skip the apocryphal atrocity stories.
>
> We can perfectly well afford to provide medical care to our
> people, we just choose to do it in an extremely peculiar
> way with the result that poor people, regardless of their
> status with respect to legal residency, are treated in the
> most expensive way possible, in emergency rooms. This has
> nothing to do with illegal immigration.
>
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K5CD31FDC
Mexican medics take sick to U.S.
Americans left to pick up tab
Mexican ambulance drivers are transporting hospital patients unable to pay
for medical care or emergency-room services in their country to facilities
in the United States, where their treatment is mandated by federal law,
authorities said yesterday.
The border crossings have been reported from Brownsville, Texas, to Douglas,
Ariz., and involve Mexican ambulance companies whose drivers have been
instructed by hospital officials in Mexico to take ailing and uninsured
patients to the
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11061
Arizona is not alone in facing these problems. Hospitals and public health
providers from California to Colorado are feeling the pinch of providing
unlimited services to illegal immigrants, who have neither citizenship nor
insurance. The Border Counties Coalition, an organization made up of elected
officials representing the 24 U.S. counties that directly border Mexico,
commissioned a report that estimated the cost of illegal alien medical
expenses at more than $832 million for FY 2000. This includes more than $200
million for emergency health care ($79 million in California, $74 million in
Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico, as well as $13
million in EMS transportation costs.) Sen. Kyl noted that current estimates
for total care run between $1.5 and 2 billion.
Kyl has stated, "One of my top priorities in the Senate has been to provide
reimbursements to local health care providers for the costs of federally
mandated emergency care of illegal immigrants." Apparently lawmakers have
not considered that the answer to the problem of unfunded mandates is not
public subsidies but repealing the mandate themselves.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html
Overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration
(search), public health care in Los Angeles is on life support.
Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More
than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los
Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford
to see a doctor.
According to the State Association of Hospitals (search), California's
public health system is "on the brink of collapse." In Los Angeles County,
patients can wait four days for a hospital bed and up to two years for
gallbladder surgery.
http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf
What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and closed some
of America.s finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital
bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors. .Anchor
babies. born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare
benefits and have caused enormous rises in
Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and
Disability Income. What is seen is the illegal alien who with strong back
may
cough, sweat, and bleed, but is assumed healthy even though he and his
illegal alien wife and children were never examined for contagious diseases.
By default, we grant health passes to illegal aliens. Yet many illegal
aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished
long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague,
polio, dengue, and Chagas disease.
What is seen is the political statistic that 43 million lives are at risk in
America because of lack of medical insurance. What is unseen is that medical
insurance does not equal medical care.Uninsured people receive medical care
in hospital emergency departments (EDs) under the coercive Emergency Medical
Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA), which obligates hospitals
to treat the uninsured but does not pay for that care. Also unseen is the
percentage of the uninsured who are illegal aliens. No one knows how many
illegal aliens reside in America. If there are 10 million, they constitute
nearly 25 percent of the
uninsured. The percentage could be even higher.
http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/health.html
Immigrants Represent Most of Rise in Numbers of Uninsured
By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Los Angeles Times, Dateline Washington, June 14,
2005
Immigrants account for most of the increases in U.S. residents
without health insurance, according to a study by the Employee Benefit
Research Institute.
While the study did not distinguish between illegal and legal
immigrants, estimates are that at least a quarter of all immigrants are
undocumented, most from Mexico.
According to Paul Fronstin, director of health research at the
Employee Benefit Research Institute, immigrants are likely to be uninsured
because "they are disproportionately employed by small businesses. They are
uninsured because they have service and agricultural jobs that are less
likely to come with benefits."
U.S. hospitals often end up absorbing the costs of caring for
uninsured immigrants, because they are required to provide emergency room
care to all.
See: The Impact of Immigration on Health Coverage in the United
States, June 2005.
U.S. Is Linking Status of Aliens to Hospital Aid
By Robert Pear, The New York Times, Dateline Washington, August 10, 2004
In a new program created under the 2003 Medicare law, the U.S.
federal government is offering $1 billion to U.S. hospitals that provide
emergency care for illegal immigrants. But to collect the money, the
hospitals will be required to provide documentation about their patients'
immigration status.
U.S. federal health officials maintain that the information is
necessary to make sure the money will be used as Congress intended; that is,
for "emergency health services furnished to undocumented aliens."
Some hospital officials are balking at the requirement. They say
collecting the information will be difficult, administratively expensive,
and may pose a public health problem if the requirements scare off illegals
needing care. For example, the foreign-born population accounted for over 50
percent of the new tuberculosis cases reported in 2003, according to the
U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Hospital on Border Going Over the Edge
By David Kelly, The Los Angeles Times, Dateline Bisbee, Arizona, June 20,
2004
This feature story discusses the financial problems encountered by
U.S. hospitals along the Mexico border that treat large numbers of illegal
immigrants.
U.S. law requires that hospitals treat anyone and everyone who shows
up in their emergency rooms. Kelly writes: "In a study last year by the
U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition examined health care costs in 28
border counties in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California. It found they
had lost $200 million treating illegal immigrants that year."
The 13-bed private community hospital in Copper Queen, Arizona, for
example, has lost $800,000 in 2003 caring for migrants, and $500,000 the
year before. The hospital lies in the "Naco corridor," where U.S. Border
Patrol agents arrested 154,000 illegal immigrants in 2004.
Kelly writes: "Every day hundred of immigrants set off from Naco,
Mexico, six miles from Bisbee, and head north through this ragged edge of
Arizona. If they get hurt in the desert or while being smuggled in vans and
trucks, they usually wind up at Copper Queen. The facility also take
emergency transfers from Naco, which has no hospital."
Stephen Lindstrom, medical director at Copper Queen, is quoted as
saying: "The numbers are incredible. They are constantly bringing in
dehydrated and injured Mexicans, but I don't think we've ever got a dollar."
Burden Grows for Southwest Hospitals
By Michael Janofsky, The New York Times, Dateline Phoenix, Arizona, April
11, 2003
Officials at hospitals throughout the Southwest say they are treating
more illegal immigrants every year.
According to the American Hospital Association, the 24 southernmost
counties from Texas to California accrued $832 million in unpaid medical
care in 2000 -- one quarter of that figure attributable to illegal
immigrants.
U.S. federal law requires hospitals to treat emergency patients no
matter where they came from or how.
Molly Collins, a policy analyst for the American Hospital Association
in Washington, is quoted as saying: "The problem is moving well beyond the
border states. We don't have hard data, but it's certainly what we're
hearing from hospitals and state associations. This is a much broader
issue."
>
>> > but there it is. Public schools are funded from property and
>> > state taxes which illegal immigrants pay just as others do:
>> > directly, or indirectly through rents and other such payments.
>>
>> Two or three illegal alien families with 10-15 kids between them living
>> in a
>> residence intended for and zoned for a single family with no more than
>> the
>> average of 2 or 3 kids does not pay enough property taxes into the system
>> to
>> support the costs of educating their packs of anchor brats. That's why
>> all
>> the school districts in cities where there are illegal aliens are going
>> broke. And that does not include the extraordinary burden of additonal
>> costs to teach anchor brats who cannot speak English, and with more than
>> a
>> 60% drop out rate because neither they nor anyone in their family values
>> education in the first place.
>
>
> Again, I'd like to see the facts, not just atrocity stories.
> I live in a neighborhood with a substantial number of Mexican
> residents and I don't see them with particularly larger families
> than other kinds of people.
>
You don't even know how to use a simple search engine to conduct rudimentary
research prior to inserting your foot in your mouth, so it is unlikely your
powers of observation would provide any quality anecdotal evidence.
http://www.njslom.org/magartDEC2005_p12.html
Twenty-three beds in a modest single-family house. Forty people living in a
four-family apartment building. Twenty-two people in a house with electrical
zip cords running from floor to floor. Six families in two apartments
divided up with plywood barriers. Single bedrooms rented at $600 apiece to
three adults. These were all situations discovered at Morristown fire
scenes in recent years. What they shared was the accident of good fortune -
had the fire in any of these buildings occurred at a different time of day,
there could have been multiple fatalities.
Overcrowding of housing, commonly known as 'stacking,' is detrimental to a
community. It increases congestion, diminishing the quality of life. It
increases the demand on public services, without providing an additional
ratable base to pay for those services. It rapidly deteriorates the
buildings in which it occurs, blighting neighborhoods and eroding the tax
base. It also gives rise to various social issues involving tension in
neighborhoods.
But most of all, it creates a public safety risk. It's not just that more
people are at risk should a particular building happen to catch fire.
Overcrowding is also associated with and indeed causes other conditions that
increase the risk of fire -- make-shift cooking facilities in bedrooms;
electric or kerosene heaters to heat attics, basements and enclosed porches
used as living space; more appliances that overload substandard electrical
wiring; extension cords and makeshift wiring to provide electricity. If
there is a fire, makeshift walls prevent escape by occupants and/or
effective firefighting. In dense communities such as Morristown, a fire
occurring in one building can rapidly spread to another, jeopardizing the
lives, safety and homes of other residents. This is a serious problem, and
needs to be dealt with accordingly. Further, the lives of public safety
personnel - police and fire - are put at greater risk when they must respond
to these locations.
Morristown is not the only municipality to face this problem - it is
becoming more and more prevalent in both urban and suburban communities, not
only in New Jersey but throughout the country. Our search for approaches to
address the problem has led us to conversations with officials from Dover,
Red Bank, Trenton, Roxbury, Parsippany-Troy Hills, and others all seeking
the same answers. A recent New York Times article reports the same problems
in such places as Farmingville, New York, and Danbury Connecticut.
The New York Times article also points to a link between the presence of
home overcrowding, and the presence of numbers of illegal immigrants, many
of whom work as day laborers. Although by no means all overcrowding is done
by illegal immigrants, and conversely, there are illegal immigrants who do
not live in overcrowded conditions, the two problems (overcrowding and
illegal immigrants) are undeniably interrelated. The New York Times article
also notes that local governments are left to deal with the fallout of a
lack of coherent federal immigration policy and the enforcement of federal
laws. Part of this fall-out is increased stacking.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFD8123EF932A05754C0A96E948260&sec=&pagewanted=print
When Fire Inspector Austin F. Cassidy pushed open the basement door of a
small house on Spring Street here one night this month, he found amid the
leaking pipes 17 men asleep on mattresses on the floor.
''It was literally wall-to-wall people,'' Mr. Cassidy said last week. ''So
many, that we couldn't step into the rooms to take measurements or we would
have been stepping on shoulders or heads.''
His eight-man search team - made up of Building Department employees and
policemen - found 34 people living in the two-family house, including four
men asleep under the attic eaves. The tenants were very cooperative, Mr.
Cassidy said, even helping to pass the tape measure to determine the size of
each of the two one-room apartments - which were renting for $1,000 a month
apiece.
''They recognized,'' Mr. Cassidy said, ''that we were not a threat to them,
that we were after the landlord.'' Not Eager to Displace Aliens
Mr. Cassidy's raid was the latest skirmish between municipal leaders in the
county who are determined to enforce health and fire codes and curb some
landlords whose buildings house new waves of illegal immigrants caught in
the county's housing crunch.
Saying that the building owners, the Valvanoses, were cited in l986 and
again last year for illegally renting basement apartments in a house zoned
for only two families, Mr. Seymour said he would seek the maximum penalties,
which could be as high as $85,000. ''We must take the profit out of
warehousing these people,'' Mr. Seymour said.
When Mrs. Valvanos, who speaks Italian, was called by a reporter, she said
that she did not understand the questions; and Mr. Seymour said the
Valvanoses did not have a lawyer.
A similar raid last month in Mount Kisco found 23 people crowded into three
small apartments on Lexington Avenue. Village officials said last week that
they also planned to prosecute that case, against the building's owners,
Patrick and Carmela Cambareri. 'Conditions Are Staggering'
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3500069.html
Lopez will house almost anyone who can pay $50 per person per week, provided
they don't mind bunking on a bare and soiled mattress in a room with two or
three other workers they might not know. Some of the houses have stained
carpets that reek of sweat and vomit. In others, the linoleum is old and
chipped. Most offer neither heat nor air-conditioning, making them chilly in
the winter and stifling during Houston's long summers.
Police have cited Lopez and other local landlords for health code
violations, records indicate. Still, many tenants are happy to have
anything. The worst off of the day laborers, those who typically have
problems with drugs, end up sleeping under the bridge where Shepherd crosses
White Oak Bayou, according to the immigrants and police.
The larger Don Carlos homes have three or four bedrooms, meaning they often
hold as many as 10 people. At $50 per person, Lopez potentially collects as
much as $2,000 a month renting a house with an appraised value of less than
$100,000.
Former guests say Lopez is very diligent about collecting the rent. Those
who cannot come up with their $50 rent by Saturday afternoon will find their
belongings on the street. Immigrant men with few belongings are the most
common victims of these sudden evictions, but it happens to others as well.
In early February, a Salvadoran woman with a 3-year-old son and a
5-month-old daughter stayed at a Don Carlos house on Lillian. Others in the
house returned one day to find them gone, evicted on the spot. No one knew
where the woman went, and some openly worried for her children.
Tenants in Don Carlos homes typically share rooms with people they don't
know. Many complain that the houses become centers for drinking, carousing
and crime, making it hard for everyone else to sleep at night. Lopez says
he is helping immigrants, many of whom arrive penniless. He argues that he
can't improve the housing because then the immigrants wouldn't be able to
afford it.
Even as new town homes proliferate, the area around Shepherd and Washington
retains a number of old houses that have been divided into makeshift housing
for immigrants willing to live two or three to a room.
Nearly 14 percent of the people in the neighborhood live in severely
overcrowded conditions, according to the 2000 Census. Nationwide, about 1
percent of the population lives in severe overcrowding, defined by the
government as more than 1.5 people per room.
The census also found that 69 percent of the people who live in the roughly
square-mile area around Shepherd and Washington are Hispanic, and 20 percent
are considered linguistically isolated, which means no one in the household
speaks English well.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/02/26/new_rules_raise_question_of_family/
It began as an effort to curb overcrowding in houses and apartments in this
suburb of 27,000 that is home to a small but fast-growing immigrant
community. The town ruling, which came two weeks ago, has rankled fair
housing and immigrant advocates. However, proponents say the ordinance will
protect not only longtime residents but also newcomers vulnerable to
exploitation by greedy landlords who look the other way from tenants living
in crowded and unsafe conditions.
''To me, having 20 to 25 people living in a single-family house is
deplorable, especially if you have children," said Dino DeBartolomeis,
chairman of Milford's Board of Selectmen. ''There's only one bathroom.
They're sleeping on the floor. They're sleeping in the cellar, all those
things."
''We're seeing it from Colorado through the South and up the East Coast now,
particularly where there's been a dramatic increase in the number of not
just Latino but Asian-American immigrants," said Shanna Smith, president and
CEO of the National Fair Housing Alliance, an advocacy group in Washington,
D.C.
Last month, the City Council in Manassas, Va., a Washington suburb that is
home to a large Latino community, repealed a sharply controversial ordinance
that made it illegal for extended relatives to share a home. Supporters of
such laws say they will help curb eyesores associated with packed apartments
and houses -- trashcans overflowing on corners, numerous cars parked in
front of houses -- and excessive noise.
http://queens.about.com/b/a/217176.htm
A recent fire in Elmhurst took the lives of three children and an elderly
man, and has drawn more attention to illegal conversions in Queens. The
building was a one-family house divided into small one-bedroom apartments
(without smoke alarms), rented out to struggling immigrant families.
It's a pattern seen in many neighborhoods (see Flushing's Cherry Ave) where
landlords ignore law and safety for greed or at least the means to pay off a
high mortgage. The NY Times gives detail on the pervasive problem of illegal
conversions in Queens:
According to city records, 70 percent of all complaints citywide to the
Buildings Department about illegal conversions since 1999 have involved
houses in Queens. Complaints about illegal conversions citywide have
increased to 23,393 in 2005 from 6,064 in 1999.
70 percent! The overcrowding complaints from Queens are more than double
those of all the other boroughs. The reason is that Queens has a high number
of immigrants working low-paying jobs and plenty of large one-family homes
in neighborhoods along good subway and bus lines.
>
>> > In the area where I live, landlords are very happy to get
>> > Mexican and Central American tenants because, as I said above,
>> > they are highly motivated to do well and they stay out of
>> > trouble -- they keep their apartments clean and pay the
>> > rent.
>
>> a.k.a slum lords. I suppose they kin to the land lords up in NY last
>> year
>> who were incarcerated when it was discovered they were renting single
>> family
>> residences to packs of more than 60 illegal aliens; the photographs of
>> Mexicans stacked like cordwood in the houses were .... fascinating.
>
>
> More apocryphal atrocity stories. Do you make them up
> or do people like you pass them around?
>
You're quite the contortionist, aren't you? It takes a lot of talent to
shove your foot in your mouth simultaneous with shoving your head up your
ass.
You could alleviate a lot of your discomfort if you actually did a little
research before you opened your mouth. It's real easy. www.google.com is a
great place to start.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/21/nyregion/21house.html?ex=1277006400&en=b976951bf2809126&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Published: June 21, 2005
FARMINGVILLE, N.Y., June 20 - Long Island law enforcement agents raided and
closed a small one-family home here that they said had been converted into
an illegal rooming house jammed with 44 beds and up to 64 male occupants.
Officials said they are investigating an additional 117 houses for illegal
overcrowding in this blue-collar suburb, which has been polarized in recent
years over an influx of thousands of Mexican laborers, many of them illegal
immigrants who work in the contracting, landscaping and service industries.
Shortly after dawn on Sunday, a team of Brookhaven building inspectors and
fire marshals joined county police in raiding the dilapidated,
900-square-foot home at 33 Woodmont Place and found 28 men there. But
inspectors said they had counted as many as 64 men emerging from the house
on other mornings in recent weeks.
The tenants paid $225 to $250 a month each for a bunk in the house, the
police said. Suffolk's district attorney, Thomas J. Spota, estimated the
gross monthly rent at $9,000.
At a news conference on Monday, Suffolk County Executive Steve Levy called
the house "a hellhole" that disrupted the entire neighborhood and endangered
the tenants, who paid exorbitant rents. Such conditions "will not be
tolerated," he said.
The authorities identified Rosalina Dias, 31, of Selden, as the owner and
arrested her on criminal contempt and criminal nuisance charges, saying she
had ignored State Supreme Court orders to comply with building codes. She
pleaded not guilty at her arraignment in Suffolk's First District Court in
Central Islip. She was held in $20,000 bail, according to the sheriff's
department.
Though the tenants were not formally evicted, many left, and on Monday town
inspectors effectively closed the building by posting warning notices that
the building was unsafe and putting yellow tape across the doors.
"The conditions were disgusting" in the house, said Councilman James Tullo
of Brookhaven. Officials said the inside was a filthy jumble of mattresses,
clothing and food. Photographs and videotape showed a collapsing ceiling,
overloaded electrical wiring and blocked basement windows.
The main floor had a kitchen and two bathrooms. That floor and the basement
were crammed with beds and belongings. Outside were two bicycles, a grill
and cases of empty beer bottles in two shopping carts.
Conditions are as bad or even worse at some of the 117 other houses that the
authorities are investigating, Mr. Tullo said.
>
>> > I've already discussed the fallacy of "depressed wage rates"
>> > but we can do it again if you like. After all, this is Usenet.
>> > The main thing that depresses illegal immigrants' wages are
>> > the laws against them that you're so fond of. As with the
>> > Drug War and so many other things, the law aggravates the
>> > problem it was supposed to solve.
>> >
>
>> Uh huh... why don't we just repeal the laws against slavery and be done
>> with
>> it?
>> Then people like you would be happy.
>
>
> You've got things mixed up. I am the person who believes
> freedom is good. You are the person who believes in locking
> people up to keep them under control, and your justification
> is the usual collection of racist fables. If you're going to
> make a case that illegal immigrants are doing economic or
> social harm, you'd better get some real facts.
When you get your head pulled out of your ass and review some real facts,
get back to me.
H. Reader
>
> They do not cram huge families together because they are Mexican, they
> do that because they are poor. The American poor are also more likely
> to live in crowded conditions, are you complaining because they don't
> pay enough property tax?
Fallacies in the premises of both statements. Find someone with
the time to educate you -- it should take some years, apparently.
> You just need to admit that you are a racist pig. Liberty cannot
> survive if people are assumed to be unequal.
Here's some free education: liberty cannot survive if *citizens* are
assumed to be unequal under the law. That statement is correct.
Your statement is patently silly nonsense.
anima...@yahoo.com
> > a lot of dependents used to be a red flag to the IRS and
> > probably still is, and the second-too-last thing an illegal
> > immigrant wants is to be noticed by the IRS. The smartest
> > thing is to overpay and avoid filing at all.
Lets Roll wrote:
> Jesus tits. I sure will be glad when some of you ignorant assholes learn
> how to use google. It gets damned tedious doing your homework for you.
And a waste of time, too, because all the material posted
proves is that illegal immigrants handle taxes in just about
the same way other Americans do, except some of them
pay more because they are afraid to file income tax returns
to get refunds for overcollections.
The rest of the material you posted consisted of anecdotes
which could be told about any set of people. On the whole,
it is yet another example of pure, venomous racism. Every
time we think it has gone away it comes back as
monstrous as ever.
Maxwell Edison
was-scipio@lacedæmon.net says...
> Any readers out there who live in cities and towns with an Illegals
> population differ with my assertion that these people have more people
> living in their individual domiciles and apartments, more family and
> kids packed in there, than do average Americans?
It doesn't matter if they are undocumented or citizens.
Latinos have family values. Grandparents and grown siblings continue
living together because they love one another, can share work and share
resources.
That makes them more caring and less of an environmental impact per
capita.
What makes that a problem? Or are you just jealous because your family
can't stand you?
--
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." - Johann
Goethe
Jim E
"Figaro" <fig...@home.com> wrote in message
news:uqal22hhn4ghbfg58...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:59:10 GMT, Graphic Queen <pa...@pagan.com> wrote:
>
>>On 28 Mar 2006 15:35:52 -0800, "Peter ML" <lamb...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>On the topic of hugely overpopulated dwellings:
>>>
>>>They do not cram huge families together because they are Mexican, they
>>>do that because they are poor. The American poor are also more likely
>>>to live in crowded conditions, are you complaining because they don't
>>>pay enough property tax?
>>
>>any other ethnicity.
>>>
>>>You just need to admit that you are a racist pig. Liberty cannot
>>>survive if people are assumed to be unequal.
>>
>>
>>prove that you have no debate and that you are ignorant of any facts.
>
> Speaking of words that mean nothing anymore, how about "white trash"?
>
> Poor Graphic Queen, sounds like she (or he) was dumped by a Mexican and is
> now
> out for revenge...and still pumping the usual racist bilge that people are
> poor
> because they want to be poor and would still live the same way even if
> they
> could afford not to.
>
Poor, rich, who gives a crap.
They have NO right to be here.
They are ILLEGAL ALIENS.
Throw their illegal asses over the border.
Jim E