Macross 7 Sucks!
Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
&%(&&^&%^% dick!!!! This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
faggots and valkyries with human faces!? Where was Minmay and Hikaru!
This is a bullshit ripoff and I wasted my money!
Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
-Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
AnimeNut
Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz wrote in message
<3571FEE4...@enigmax.net>...
Well we know now that you do NOT know the whole story behind it.
Windjammer
>Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
>
>-Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
I guess you're not a Macross fan then.
Windjammer
Paul Lampshire
Just go away, now, please?
If you have something worth saying - without resorting to obscenities -
then say it. If not, then go away.
Thank you.
--
God's in His heaven, all's right with the world.
MarcRLuce
Well.......
I agree with the emotion of the opinion, if not the verbage. I just do not
like Macross 7 at all........I feel that the maturity and complexity of the
origional does not have the slightest representation in '7......really seems to
be aimed at the 6-9 year olds.........
Rare Macross and other models at:
Mike Breen
I was so psyched when alt.fan.macross was created. Finally, here was
a place where we could have friendly and intelligent discussions about
Macross without the Robotech stuff. And for a while that was what we
had. Now it's degenerated into "Robotech sucks," "Macross 7 sucks,"
and "No it doesn't, you suck" threads. Why? What happened to this
newsgroup? Is it _that_ impossible to talk about Macross without
profanities and flames? I realize that Robotech has had a huge impact
on Macross, and not all of it was positive. Personally, as the only
way to get Macross in this country unless a minor miracle occurs and
Macek finishes the Perfect collection, I have no problems with it, so
long as the discussions are somehow related to Macross TV. Face it,
talking about Macross without having someone mention "Rick Hunter"
would be like talking about Yamato without someone bringing up "Derek
Wildstar." It's simply something we've all got to live with, like it
or not. There are people who simply can't seperate Hikaru Ichijo from
Rick Hunter. This IS NOT a crime! It does NOT mean that they're not
Macross fans! All it means is that either they never saw DYRL, or the
Robotech names are so ingrained that they _can't_ change. Gatchaman
fans don't go all ballistic when someone mistakes "Ken" for "Mark."
Why do Macross fans? It makes no sence!
I can see someone getting angry at another poster for taking the Macek
changes as gospel. Hell, I'd probably get miffed if someone proposed
exactily how Macek's "basis of robotechnology" was mankind's
ancestors. But again, that's no reason for flames. This newsgroup
and the people who read it are here to educate Mac newbies, like it or
not. As Mac "purists," we're here to let the curious know how much
better Kawamori's vision is from Macek's. We are NOT here to flame
those who have no interest in the original, at least that's what I
always thought. Face it, your ranting would only be falling on deaf
ears. They don't _want_ to hear it, OK?
And can we all be aware that we will never agree on Macross 7? Just
because someone has a differing opinion from yours does not make them
any more or less of a Macross fan. Macross 7 is contriversal. I
happen to love it. But I also see how some people can hate it with a
passion. There's no reason for flames on this subject, either, and I
don't see why people feel it's necessary. Again, ranting about it
isn't gonna turn someone one way or the other!
Finally, the sub vs dub war accomplishes NOTHING. Why bring it here?
I haven't posted here in a long time, and this is why. I _want_ a
place where Macross can be discussed. I'd like to have this newsgroup
return to the (mostly) flame-free place it started out as. There's no
reason why everyone can't be at least civil to eachother. Damnit,
can't we agree to disagree and just MOVE THE HELL ON? I certanly hope
so. I don't want to see this turn into just another alt.flame clone,
but it seems as if it already has. I really hope I'm wrong.
j-j...@nwu.edu
In article <357398df...@news1.channel1.com>,
mi...@user1.NO_SPAM.com (Mike Breen) wrote:
>
> I was so psyched when alt.fan.macross was created. Finally, here was
> a place where we could have friendly and intelligent discussions about
> Macross without the Robotech stuff. And for a while that was what we
> had. Now it's degenerated into "Robotech sucks," "Macross 7 sucks,"
> and "No it doesn't, you suck" threads. Why? What happened to this
> newsgroup? Is it _that_ impossible to talk about Macross without
> profanities and flames? I realize that Robotech has had a huge impact
> on Macross, and not all of it was positive. Personally, as the only
> way to get Macross in this country unless a minor miracle occurs and
> Macek finishes the Perfect collection, I have no problems with it, so
> long as the discussions are somehow related to Macross TV.
I was an RT fan as a kid, so I don't mind it too much, but I am fully
aware that there are other people who absolutely hate it. I don't mind if
they rip apart RT. I feel that it's within reason to, as long as they
don't go telling other people to bugger off or other personal derogatory
comments.
Face it,
> talking about Macross without having someone mention "Rick Hunter"
> would be like talking about Yamato without someone bringing up "Derek
> Wildstar." It's simply something we've all got to live with, like it
> or not.
Isn't that just a matter of perspective? I've come to learn the
difference, so I can live without the "Rick Hunter" references. Some
people here knew of Hikaru Ichijyo long before RT came out. I'm not to
sure what usenet ettiquette would call for in this situation, but I don't
think it's too much to ask out of newbies to read some posts and get
acquainted with the facts before posting whatever on this NG.
There are people who simply can't seperate Hikaru Ichijo from
> Rick Hunter. This IS NOT a crime! It does NOT mean that they're not
> Macross fans! All it means is that either they never saw DYRL, or the
> Robotech names are so ingrained that they _can't_ change. Gatchaman
> fans don't go all ballistic when someone mistakes "Ken" for "Mark."
> Why do Macross fans? It makes no sence!
>
It's not just Macross fans. Go to one of the RT NG's and make several posts
pertaining to the original series and use the original names. Unless you
apologize in the post, you _WILL_ be told to cut it out. I know, it's
happened to me twice.
> I can see someone getting angry at another poster for taking the Macek
> changes as gospel. Hell, I'd probably get miffed if someone proposed
> exactily how Macek's "basis of robotechnology" was mankind's
> ancestors. But again, that's no reason for flames.
True. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who gets peeved by incessant
flaming.
This newsgroup
> and the people who read it are here to educate Mac newbies, like it or
> not. As Mac "purists," we're here to let the curious know how much
> better Kawamori's vision is from Macek's. We are NOT here to flame
> those who have no interest in the original, at least that's what I
> always thought. Face it, your ranting would only be falling on deaf
> ears. They don't _want_ to hear it, OK?
>
Well, if the case is that they don't like the original Macross series, DYRL,
Macross II, Macross Plus, or Macross 7 and all it's follow ups, then they
shouldn't be here, right? If that's the case and they still lurk and post,
then I think that it's in our rights to kick them out.
> And can we all be aware that we will never agree on Macross 7? Just
> because someone has a differing opinion from yours does not make them
> any more or less of a Macross fan. Macross 7 is contriversal. I
> happen to love it. But I also see how some people can hate it with a
> passion. There's no reason for flames on this subject, either, and I
> don't see why people feel it's necessary. Again, ranting about it
> isn't gonna turn someone one way or the other!
>
> Finally, the sub vs dub war accomplishes NOTHING. Why bring it here?
>
Clash of the Bionoids and Macross II. Bad dubbing can go a long way.
> I haven't posted here in a long time, and this is why. I _want_ a
> place where Macross can be discussed. I'd like to have this newsgroup
> return to the (mostly) flame-free place it started out as. There's no
> reason why everyone can't be at least civil to eachother. Damnit,
> can't we agree to disagree and just MOVE THE HELL ON?
What did you write about profanity? J/k.
I certanly hope
> so. I don't want to see this turn into just another alt.flame clone,
> but it seems as if it already has. I really hope I'm wrong.
>
Eh, flame wars come in cycles. Don't worry too much about it. It'll be over
soon. Just watch out when it's heats up again (no pun intended).
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee, field general of FMDB
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Kazama Isamu
In article <3571FEE4...@enigmax.net>, Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
<stca...@enigmax.net> wrote:
>Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
>&%(&&^&%^% dick!!!!
No, YOU SUCK.
>This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
Anyway, Macross IS music, so how can you say it wasn't Macross?
>faggots and valkyries with human faces!?
"Valkyries with 'human' faces"?
There's only 2 Valks i see with faces.
>Where was Minmay and Hikaru!
Minmay and Hikaru are off in the Galactic Core; they were never in Mac7 to
begin with.
>This is a bullshit ripoff and I wasted my money!
>
>Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
That comment says it all -- you just don't knwo what Macross is...
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=
| MAX's Number One Fan! |
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| |
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=
Robbie Mejias
How do you really feel about it?
Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz wrote:
>
> Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
> &%(&&^&%^% dick!!!! This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
> faggots and valkyries with human faces!? Where was Minmay and Hikaru!
> This is a bullshit ripoff and I wasted my money!
>
> Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
>
> -Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
VF1S Skull
>Well.......
>
>I agree with the emotion of the opinion, if not the verbage. I just do not
>like Macross 7 at all........I feel that the maturity and complexity of the
>origional does not have the slightest representation in '7......really seems
>to
>be aimed at the 6-9 year olds.........
>
>
how can Macross 7 be aimed at 6-9 year olds. It has no super deformed
characters, no animals that talk. Where do you see this. Would you put Macross
7 in the same category as Totoro, Samurai pizza cats, and pocket Monster? I
think not. Macross 7 has many adult aspects about it. Like when that punk gave
Basara the finger and said something similar to "fuck you" to him. Or what
about the parts when Sivil entered the bodies of Rex and Akiko and tried to
have sex with Basara. And the main thing about the series is that there is
always something other than fighting. that is the message that Basara was
trying to get across to people. I dont think 6-9 year olds would get it.
Dosun1
You are thinking of American audiences. There is plenty of sex and foul
language on cartoons that air in Japan, Japanese aren't as uptight about that
stuff as Americans. But I agree with the statement Macross 7 was aimed at a
younger audiences, they seem to enjoy it the most.
Windjammer
There is plenty of sex and foul
>language on cartoons that air in Japan, Japanese aren't as uptight about
that
>stuff as Americans. But I agree with the statement Macross 7 was aimed at a
>younger audiences, they seem to enjoy it the most.
>
This is not true. Japanese TV anime do not contain sex and have very little
nudity. You are thinking of OVAs and movies. I do not believe Macross 7, was
aimed at six to nine year olds. Just because the animation is tv quality,
does not make it for younger people. You were spoiled by the awesome
animation of Macross Plus.
Windjammer
Pen Bloke
I agree with bioth sides here. Occasionally there is a little more sex and
violence on kids TV in Japan than we are used to in the west. For instance the
bloodier bits cut out of Gatchaman for BOTP or the occasional nudity in Urusei
Yatsura (it got a '15' rating here in the UK because of a little
nudity-although I don't think it was intended as being sexual, but the BBFC
sometimes have strange ideas). But I think Mac7 was aimed a little higher than
6-9 year olds. Possibly it was marketed at a slightly lower age than the
original series to begin with (after all the older fans had Mac plus). Perhaps
the early episodes were less complex to draw in new fans while later episodes
had more intrigue and plot twists for both the older and new fans. I think a
lot of folks get the wrong idea about Mac7 from just watching the first few
episodes, which I really enjoyed, but it's the later episodes when it really
gets good.
Simon Smith
Dosun1
>
>There is plenty of sex and foul
>>language on cartoons that air in Japan, Japanese aren't as uptight about
>that
>>stuff as Americans. But I agree with the statement Macross 7 was aimed at a
>>younger audiences, they seem to enjoy it the most.
>>
>
>This is not true. Japanese TV anime do not contain sex and have very little
>nudity.
But there is plenty of sexual references and overtones, nothing explicit
though.
>You are thinking of OVAs and movies. I do not believe Macross 7, was
>aimed at six to nine year olds. Just because the animation is tv quality,
>does not make it for younger people.
I never said or implied that.
>You were spoiled by the awesome
>animation of Macross Plus.
You are mistaken.
>
>Windjammer
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
Sh1Aziza
Macross does not suck. I think it is a Macross series that is not supposed to
be taken too seriously. It doesn't take itself seriously. It is actually really
hilarious. The trick is to not watch all the episodes straight. Or else you get
sick of some of the songs playing "Come on Peepoe!!" says Basara ^_^ I love
when they say English lyrics with an accent. Macross 7 does get better. I can't
wait to finish the series.
MarcRLuce
Well......
I find the 'humanizing' of the valkyries to the point of putting faces on them
childish........the idea of a young girl having her own valkyrie with
breasts..........
Marc
Dosun1
>Macross does not suck.
No one said it did, the only thing that someone said sucked is Macross 7.
> I think it is a Macross series that is not supposed to
>be taken too seriously. It doesn't take itself seriously. It is actually
>really
>hilarious.
Are you talking about Macross 7?
VF1S Skull
>Well......
>
>I find the 'humanizing' of the valkyries to the point of putting faces on
>them
>childish........the idea of a young girl having her own valkyrie with
>breasts..........
>
>Marc
The reason why they put faces on the sound force valkyries is becuase they
would have a greater effect on rebel Zentradi fleets that were not exposed to
culture yet. Is that such a childish reason?
Dosun1
>The reason why they put faces on the sound force valkyries is becuase they
>would have a greater effect on rebel Zentradi fleets that were not exposed to
>culture yet. Is that such a childish reason?
Does any Macross 7 episode use that as a storyline? Does Basara have his
fighter smile or something? Or maybe his valkyrie could lip sync to Basara's
music?
Sh1Aziza
That would have been a cool idea. LOL. Lip singing Valkyrie!!
"Come on pooepoe!!"
Macross 7 does not SUCK
Kazama Isamu
In article <199806012247...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
marc...@aol.com (MarcRLuce) wrote:
>Well......
>
>I find the 'humanizing' of the valkyries to the point of putting faces on them
>childish........the idea of a young girl having her own valkyrie with
>breasts..........
Why make such a fuss over _2_ Valkyries with faces?
Yeesh.
Mike Waller
Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz wrote in message
<3571FEE4...@enigmax.net>...
>Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
>&%(&&^&%^% dick!!!! This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
>faggots and valkyries with human faces!? Where was Minmay and Hikaru!
>This is a bullshit ripoff and I wasted my money!
>
>Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
>
>-Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
What the hell are you smoking? Sure Basara's Valkyrie has a face, it's
lame I grant you that. The Rock and Roll adds a halfway decent aspect to
its music, rather than a skanky brat whore Minmei and her shitty singing,
while she pouts and whines all the time, Hikaru seriously needs to bitch
slap her... and if you think Macross 7 is a piece of bullshit ripoff and
you wasted your money, then give the series to someone who appreciates it!
Mike
ta...@netdoor.com
www.Geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/6621
www.members.tripod.com/~Animech
Gyumaoh
>rather than a skanky brat whore Minmei and her shitty singing,
>while she pouts and whines all the time, Hikaru seriously needs to bitch
>slap her...
He did!
The Official Prison Planet 3 Web Page!
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/1343/
Hokuto no Ken page!
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/1990
Sh1Aziza
>>while she pouts and whines all the time, Hikaru seriously needs to bitch
>>slap her...
>He did!
LOL Finally someone mentions that. Hikaru did land a good one on her.
Mike Breen
On Sun, 31 May 1998 21:43:34 GMT, j-j...@nwu.edu wrote:
>I was an RT fan as a kid, so I don't mind it too much, but I am fully
>aware that there are other people who absolutely hate it. I don't mind if
>they rip apart RT. I feel that it's within reason to, as long as they
>don't go telling other people to bugger off or other personal derogatory
>comments.
Yeah, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be criticizing it. By all
means, we should (if anything should be ripped apart, Robotech is it,
with Battle of the Planets a very close second). But dipping into
personal attacks isn't the way to get the point across.
>Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
It is and it isn't. It all depends on how ingrained "Rick Hunter" is.
My best friend saw RT long before DYRL. He knew immediatly what the
problems were with RT, why the original was so much better, and ranked
DYRL as one of his all-time favorite movies, animated or not. But it
took him a hell of a long time to get "Rick Hunter" out of his head,
because it was quite ingrained after seeing it when it was first
broadcast, and picking up the tapes when they were released. Does
that make him any less of a Macross fan than someone like me, who saw
DYRL long before RT, and had the original names square by the time I
saw "Rick Hunter?" If the answer's "yes," then I think it _may_ be
too late for this NG.
>It's not just Macross fans. Go to one of the RT NG's and make several posts
>pertaining to the original series and use the original names. Unless you
>apologize in the post, you _WILL_ be told to cut it out. I know, it's
>happened to me twice.
Shouldn't we be better than them, though? If we're going to hold
Macross up so much higher than RT, shouldn't our behavior reflect
that? Just because _they_ can't accept the original and automaticaly
flame anyone who uses original terminology, why should that be our
knee-jerk reaction?
I'm not advocating turning the other cheek and letting them walk all
over us, what I am advocating is politely pointing out that this is an
NG for discussion of the original, not the Macek creation.
I will say this, I have _never_ run into this type of polarization
between fans of the original and fans of the American version with
Yamato and Star Blazers. Japanese and American names have become
interchangable, all except the name of the ship. And as far as that's
concerned, American fans have no problems with using "Yamato" instead
of "Argo." Granted, Star Blazers is a hell of a lot more accurate
than Robotech, but still, I think that people on both sides of the
Mac/RT issue could learn some lessons from Y/SB fandom.
[Snip!]
>Well, if the case is that they don't like the original Macross series, DYRL,
>Macross II, Macross Plus, or Macross 7 and all it's follow ups, then they
>shouldn't be here, right? If that's the case and they still lurk and post,
>then I think that it's in our rights to kick them out.
Oh, absolutly. I was saying that trying to argue with people who
don't want to hear it is fighting a losing battle. I think that we
should just kindly ask them to either leave or eject the RT-isms from
the posts first, and if they continue baiting us, call them the troll
that they obviously are and ignore their posts. People like that
aren't gonna go away if you get sucked into the flaming, they _want_
to provoke a negative reaction, and will continue to bait as long as
there's bites, and something as contriversal as RT vs Mac is too easy
a target for any troll to pass up. However, they _do_ go away when
they're ignored. Anyone who reads raam knows about Ryb and Dylan
Alexander. Once they were ignored, they went away (or at least
stopped posting).
>> Finally, the sub vs dub war accomplishes NOTHING. Why bring it here?
>>
>Clash of the Bionoids and Macross II. Bad dubbing can go a long way.
There's nothing wrong with critisizing a bad dub. But posting (and
cross-posting to alt.fan.robotech) "ALL DUBS SUCK AND ANYONE WHO BUYS
THEM SUCKS" is about as close to KJ Karvonen (speaking of trolls) as
anyone can get. _This_ is what accomplishes nothing. Nothing except
turning off newbies who have the dubs of Mac Plus and may want to know
more about Macross, or Robotech fans who _want_ to know more about the
source material. Lemee ask you this, when you were first getting into
Macross after being a fan of Robotech, how would you feel if someone
told you that you sucked because you didn't know about Macross, and
were obviously a dub fan (whether or not that were true) and sucked
even more?
>Eh, flame wars come in cycles. Don't worry too much about it. It'll be over
>soon. Just watch out when it's heats up again (no pun intended).
I know that there's cycles to these things, I've been on-line for 8
years. _Believe_ me, I've dealt with my share of flames. But there's
no reason why the entire mood of this NG should be in the pits. Just
look at how many threads have the word "suck" in the subject line
(including this one).
So come on people, can we call a truce here and get back to Macross
without the personal attacks?
j-j...@nwu.edu
Now here's an interesting topic of discussion. Interesting how they pop up,
eh?
In article <35775fe5....@news1.channel1.com>,
mi...@user1.NO_SPAM.com (Mike Breen) wrote:
> I will say this, I have _never_ run into this type of polarization
> between fans of the original and fans of the American version with
> Yamato and Star Blazers. Japanese and American names have become
> interchangable, all except the name of the ship. And as far as that's
> concerned, American fans have no problems with using "Yamato" instead
> of "Argo." Granted, Star Blazers is a hell of a lot more accurate
> than Robotech, but still, I think that people on both sides of the
> Mac/RT issue could learn some lessons from Y/SB fandom.
>
There's quite a bit of phenomena that leads to the polarization. Here's some
notable things:
1) Obviously, the two storylines differ far to greatly
2) Reaction to Minmay. Macross' has much better songs and were performed
superiorly to Reba "the eardrum smasher" West. Also, many Macross fans feel
that Robotech portrayed Minmay to be far worse than she should have been.
3) Many die-hard Robotech fans claim that it was the "genius" of Carl Macek,
not that of Shoji Kawamori and others at Studio Nue, who made anime what it is
today here in the western hemisphere. In other words, Macross owes its
popularity to RT's massacre.
4) This point is the most important to me. Because of Robotech, many points
in Macross were lost and are to left to be discovered by western viewers.
Protoculture has gone from a race to a whatever Robotech wants it to be (fuel,
flower, whatever). The word "Macross" has diminished in meaning from the
show's title and the focal point (the damn ship), to some insignificant name
of an island that was left near the orbit of Pluto. The Macross doesn't
even get to survive past 36 episodes; it gets friggin buried! Also, some of
the relationships between the characters are portrayed rather differently.
Hell, many characters died when they shouldn't have!
5) Some people, such as myself, are just plain old purists and don't like to
see things get changed to such an extent.
6) Let's face it, Robotech's narrator, Reba West, Tony Oliver, and most of
the other VA's flat out sucked.
7) Macross has been unfairly and permanently linked to its little and
inferior cousin. Just go around on the web and find all the sites who take
bits and pieces of DYRL and call it Robotech stuff. Right now, the wallpaper
of my computer is a nice picture of Misa and Minmay from one of the Macross
books. Guess what? I took the picture from someplace that called it a
Robotech picture of Lisa and Minmei. This is not the case, and the person
responsible had known better to make such a statement. It doesn't end here.
Macross Plus volume one has that "Known as ROBOTECH in America" cliché on the
back cover. Anime magazines use that same tagline to describe Macross
paraphernalia. It drives Macross fans nuts, especially since stating the
correlation is more than unnecessary.
There are others, but I can't think of them right now. However, just by
looking at these seven things, it's plain to see that RT has had many, many
negative impacts on Macross. It makes me cringe any time I read someone
think, "I hate how DYRL killed the Robotech story." We can do everything in
our ability to educate those who don't know better by posting on newsgroups or
making websites. However, the fact remains, we affect very few people in
comparison to those who continue to think ignorantly (not their fault, they
just don't know). And these people will spread ignorance, and the new batch
up people won't know any better. To top things off, many die hard RT fans
won't bother to educate those who seek them. This also eats at me, as even
though Robotech fans claim to be spreading Macross, the truth remains that
they only spread more Robotech and diverge farther and farther away from
Macross.
That's all I have to say about that, for now...
rcr...@rstcorp.com
In article <6l458a$15j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
j-j...@nwu.edu wrote:
>
> Now here's an interesting topic of discussion. Interesting how they pop up,
> eh?
>
> mi...@user1.NO_SPAM.com (Mike Breen) wrote:
>
> > I will say this, I have _never_ run into this type of polarization
> > between fans of the original and fans of the American version with
> > Yamato and Star Blazers. Japanese and American names have become
> > interchangable, all except the name of the ship. And as far as that's
> > concerned, American fans have no problems with using "Yamato" instead
> > of "Argo." Granted, Star Blazers is a hell of a lot more accurate
> > than Robotech, but still, I think that people on both sides of the
> > Mac/RT issue could learn some lessons from Y/SB fandom.
> >
Interesting. I kinda never knew how closely Star Blazers followed Yamato
until I saw one of the Yamato movies recently. I'd never gotten to see a
Yamato episode or any of the other movies, but it all seemed to make much
sense and such. I guess one of the biggest reasons I see is because Robotech
and Macross are so different. Not even just the story change, but the fact
that Robotech isn't JUST based on the Robotech anime. You don't know how many
times I've seen people selling the cycles from Mospeada and calling them
Robotech Macross cyclones. :P It's not even just that the story's different
and the dialogue's silly...
> 2) Reaction to Minmay. Macross' has much better songs and were performed
> superiorly to Reba "the eardrum smasher" West. Also, many Macross fans feel
> that Robotech portrayed Minmay to be far worse than she should have been.
Ugh... I just picked up the Macross part of Robotech on video and I'd
forgotten how awful the songs were. They don't even fit her body movements!
She's singing a ballad and her body's moving like it's an upbeat song.
Sheesh... Would've been more bearable for their target audience if they'd
left the original songs in, I reckon. :P Not that I hate Robotech, mind
you...
It's funny the things that you notice when you're older. Just noticing how
the character's facial expressions don't match what they're saying in
Robotech. Or how their expressions don't match what they've just been told.
Or, something that I noticed the other night in Roy's death episode, they had
Roy in his Valkyrie/Veritech talking, then switched to a view showing
Rick/Hikaru's pants inside the plane. :P Nice. Just made me realize that
kids often really don't notice those things, so people think they can get away
with it... But anyhow...
> of an island that was left near the orbit of Pluto. The Macross doesn't
> even get to survive past 36 episodes; it gets friggin buried! Also, some of
> the relationships between the characters are portrayed rather differently.
> Hell, many characters died when they shouldn't have!
This is something I'd like to know more about. The only Macross I've ever
seen is the movie. And I can't afford an LD player or the LDs, so I haven't
seen a thing. I always figured the ship got blown away when they said it
did. Which characters died that shouldn't have?
> 6) Let's face it, Robotech's narrator, Reba West, Tony Oliver, and most of
> the other VA's flat out sucked.
That's for sure. Though I like Robotech, the voice acting makes me cringe.
It'd be nice if everyone could understand the difference between Robotech and
Macross. It'd be nice if people could learn to appreciate what the two of
them accomplished and like them for what they are. However... I doubt we'll
ever see that happen...
j-j...@nwu.edu
In article <6l4alr$9m7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
rcr...@rstcorp.com wrote:
> > of an island that was left near the orbit of Pluto. The Macross doesn't
> > even get to survive past 36 episodes; it gets friggin buried! Also, some
of
> > the relationships between the characters are portrayed rather differently.
> > Hell, many characters died when they shouldn't have!
>
> This is something I'd like to know more about. The only Macross I've ever
> seen is the movie. And I can't afford an LD player or the LDs, so I haven't
> seen a thing. I always figured the ship got blown away when they said it
> did. Which characters died that shouldn't have?
>
After the Macross gets roughed up in the final episode, it gets restored and
retired. That's why you see it in Macross II and Macross Plus (Macross 7 as
well?). However, instead of getting enshrined in Robotech, it gets placed
under some big mound of land.
The only two important characters that die in Macross are Hayao Kakikake and
Roy Focker. In Robotech, the mention that Capt. Global (Gloval), Claudia,
Sammy, and Kim die. McKinney also mentions that Vanessa died, but not the
cartoon.
Sh1Aziza
>There's quite a bit of phenomena that leads to the polarization. Here's some
>notable things:
In my personal humble opinion, I think it is the tone of the people who write
on message boards that causes polarization. Sure the story lines are different
and I agree that Robotech ruined a lot of Macross. But it ws Robotech that
introduced me to anime, well actually the rediscovery of Robotech. > This also
eats at me, as even
>though Robotech fans claim to be spreading Macross, the truth remains that
>they only spread more Robotech and diverge farther and farther away from
>Macross.
>
>
> This also eats at me, as even
>though Robotech fans claim to be spreading Macross, the truth remains that
>they only spread more Robotech and diverge farther and farther away from
>Macross.
>
>
I'm not so sure about that. I think that most Robotech fans do not have access
to lots of information about Macross. There are huge barriers such as money and
access that can still add to the ignorance.
I do wonder how can someone really understand Macross and prefer Robotech. I
admit that I like Mospeada, though, but definitely not over Macross. >t doesn't
end here.
>Macross Plus volume one has that "Known as ROBOTECH in America" cliché on the
>back cover. Anime magazines use that same tagline to describe Macross
>paraphernalia. It drives Macross fans nuts, especially since stating the
>correlation is more than unnecessary.
Whether we like it or not, Robotech is still being played in the US, and
Macross isn't. Even Macross Plus seems to only be available to Anime fanatics
who dish out big bucks, not the junior high, high school kids, even elementary
kids who can turn on Cartoon Network for free. So Until then, if we want to see
Valkyries or other Macross paraphenalia, we'll have to see "known as Robotech
in the US".
>There are others, but I can't think of them right now. However, just by
>looking at these seven things, it's plain to see that RT has had many, many
>negative impacts on Macross.
I really wish that Macross was shown in the US in its pure form. But it
hasn't. So I think that we should just deal with it and find ways to inform
people about the whole Macross story. I think people like Egan Loo do a good
job online.
But the thing I really would like to say is that Macross fans shouldn't scare
Robotech fans. I'm glad I didn't come to this news group before I learned about
Macross. Of course I had to spend hours reading stuff online, downloading
information, viewing almost every Robotech and Macross site I could find (I
mean hudnreds) and I still don't have the whole story.
I would just encourage everybody to be tolerant and patient. Else we will have
the negative connotation of Otaku.
Curry Coffelt
Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz wrote:
> Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
> &%(&&^&%^% dick!!!! This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
> faggots and valkyries with human faces!?
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Being a Diehard Macross 7
fan that I am I can say that it doesnot Suck. Granted hearing Seventh Moon
53 times was a bit annoying, but overall it was a good series. I have to say
this much about you man You just don't undersand.
> Where was Minmay and Hikaru!
Hikaru and Misa are on the Megaroad 1 and are elsewhere
> This is a bullshit ripoff and I wasted my money!
>
> Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
>
It is Macross and that's the bottom line
> -Stone Cold Mike Abramovitz
Curry
(Avid follower of Nekki Basara's way of thinking)
Power to the Dream!!!!
--
邢 唷��
j-j...@nwu.edu
In article <199806032302...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
sh1a...@aol.com (Sh1Aziza) wrote:
>
> >There's quite a bit of phenomena that leads to the polarization. Here's
some
> >notable things:
>
> In my personal humble opinion, I think it is the tone of the people who
write
> on message boards that causes polarization.
I'm sure that the influences of messages on NG's and such stimulate the
strong opinions on each side, but I'm not too sure how much influence the
'net actually has. To me, it seems like a lot, as I am on a college
campus and 90% of each student has fast and convenient internet access.
However, I also know that most people, as of yet at least, don't have
internet access. Also, the drift between Macross fans and Robotech fans
has been around long before "internet" became a household term.
Sure the story lines are
different
> and I agree that Robotech ruined a lot of Macross. But it ws Robotech that
> introduced me to anime, well actually the rediscovery of Robotech. > This
also
> eats at me, as even
> >though Robotech fans claim to be spreading Macross, the truth remains that
> >they only spread more Robotech and diverge farther and farther away from
> >Macross.
> >
> >
>
>
> I'm not so sure about that. I think that most Robotech fans do not have
access
> to lots of information about Macross. There are huge barriers such as money
and
> access that can still add to the ignorance.
> I do wonder how can someone really understand Macross and prefer Robotech. I
> admit that I like Mospeada, though, but definitely not over Macross.
All I meant was that Robotech fans don't tell their friends about Macross,
they tell their friends about Robotech. The idea isn't, "Well, now that you
know about Robotech, it's time for you to venture off to the original series
and learn about them." It's more like, "Watch Robotech because it's
good...then watch some more." This process doesn't necessarily lead to more
Macross fans; rather, it simply leads to more Robotech fans. The creation of
new Macross fans via Robotech is purely accidental and is not the norm. In
short, the claim that Macross owes Robotech is faulty. It's an accident.
>t
doesn't
> end here.
> >Macross Plus volume one has that "Known as ROBOTECH in America" cliché on
the
> >back cover. Anime magazines use that same tagline to describe Macross
> >paraphernalia. It drives Macross fans nuts, especially since stating the
> >correlation is more than unnecessary.
>
> Whether we like it or not, Robotech is still being played in the US, and
> Macross isn't. Even Macross Plus seems to only be available to Anime
fanatics
> who dish out big bucks, not the junior high, high school kids, even
elementary
> kids who can turn on Cartoon Network for free. So Until then, if we want to
see
> Valkyries or other Macross paraphenalia, we'll have to see "known as
Robotech
> in the US".
>
I understand that from a marketing point of view, it makes the products more
recognizable to most consumers. I just wish that companies would have the
guts not to use that same line over and over again and just let the product
sell itself. Why? Because the line isn't all that accurate in the first
place.
> >There are others, but I can't think of them right now. However, just by
> >looking at these seven things, it's plain to see that RT has had many, many
> >negative impacts on Macross.
> I really wish that Macross was shown in the US in its pure form. But it
> hasn't. So I think that we should just deal with it and find ways to inform
> people about the whole Macross story. I think people like Egan Loo do a good
> job online.
>
I think that people in various NG's and maintainers of various websites have
done a great job in clearing things up. Unfortunately, there's only so much
that can be done. As powerful as the internet is, it doesn't affect everyone
who watches Cartoon Network to watch RT. The only really affective way to
inform those who don't know better is to make some flashing sign during or
after the show pointing out that Macross isn't Robotech and vice versa. How
stupid would that be, though?
> But the thing I really would like to say is that Macross fans shouldn't
scare
> Robotech fans. I'm glad I didn't come to this news group before I learned
about
> Macross. Of course I had to spend hours reading stuff online, downloading
> information, viewing almost every Robotech and Macross site I could find (I
> mean hudnreds) and I still don't have the whole story.
>
> I would just encourage everybody to be tolerant and patient. Else we will
have
> the negative connotation of Otaku.
>
It's good to be open-minded... to a point. Since I liked Robotech as kid, I
can't find it in me to hate it just because it ruined some parts of Macross.
However, I contend that Robotech was a wrong project in the first place. The
more Robotech is spread, the more Macross ideas get diluted, and there's only
so much that those who know better can do to remedy this.
Sh1Aziza
>All I meant was that Robotech fans don't tell their friends about Macross,
>they tell their friends about Robotech. The idea isn't, "Well, now that you
>know about Robotech, it's time for you to venture off to the original series
>and learn about them." It's more like, "Watch Robotech because it's
>good...then watch some more." This process doesn't necessarily lead to more
>Macross fans; rather, it simply leads to more Robotech fans. The creation of
>new Macross fans via Robotech is purely accidental and is not the norm. In
>short, the claim that Macross owes Robotech is faulty. It's an accident.
>
>
I do kinda see some cultural bias coming from people though. I admit it is a
bit annoying. Through out the world people watch American movies subtitled.
Titanic was a big hit worldwide. But many Americans have a hard time standing
through a movie with subtitles, and even if the people have foreign names. I
don't like closed mindedness at all. But I don't understand why any Robotech
fan (which I consider myself to be) would have any beef with the Macross
official stuff. I read and watch both and consider them different universes. Of
course my preference being the official Kawamori timeline. But I think in the
future things may change. I am looking forward to advancements in
communications like CABLE ONE. And I think that with technology, we can get
better access to more programs. I think that eventually through the whole
television, internet stuff and interactive tv, big changes can be made. We can
effect programming with our visions. It does kinda piss me off that there is a
lack of pointing to the original Macross, especially on Cartoon Network. But
say if some awesome entrepenuers think of a new cable program, like an ANIME
HBO, that would be awesome. I think it can happen if we keep it up. And I think
with advancements in cable and satellite we can spread the fan base. Anybody in
the industry?? Let me know just curious how things work.
Marathon
Everybody has a valid point in this Macross vs Robotech thread, but it
should be remembered that originally Macek tried to bring Macross to the
States but in order to do so he had to have more than 36 episodes. I am
not going to debate the job that Macek did with the original Macross and
which he called Robotech, but I will say that a lot of people (myself
included) that were originally exposed to Macek's Robotech Macross are
now much more interested in finding as much they can about Kawamori's
original Macross than they do about rehashing the old Robotech
storyline. That is why I keep surfing the net and frequenting this
newsgroup to satisfy my curiosity regarding the original Macross
storyline.
A lot more people in this newsgroup seem to be more knowledgeable about
Macros Plus and Macross 7 than they are about the original Macross. A
case in point is the fact that out of all the people who normally
contribute to this newsgroup, only Egan Loo was able to answer the
question that eldemonio posted (what was 'Lonely Song' , the episode
that got changed into something totally different titled 'The Robotech
Masters', all about?). I think it's possible that they ( the Robotech
bashers) themselves MAY know more about Robotech than they MIGHT want to
acknowledge than they do about the original Macross.
So as much as some people here might cringe, the fact remains that if
there had been no Robotech, a lot of people like me would never had
known about its origin which we all know is Macross.
Marathon.
"Eat like bird, and shit like an elephant"
Guy Smiley, Sesame Street's game show
host.
"Hello, my name is Mark (Andreesen) and I certainly try to shit like an
elephant every day".
Windjammer
DAMN! This is STILL going on? Come on people!(No punt intented). OK, I think
by now we figured out that following:
There are people who think Macross 7 sucks.
and
There are people who think Macross 7 does not suck.
and
There are people who like Robotech.
and
There are people who hate Robotech.
and
There are people who are assholes.
and
There are people who are not assholes(Sorry if I was ever one of them).
and
There are people who like to watch their anime dubbed.
and
There are people who like to watch their anime subtitled.
and
There are people who are otaku.
and
There are people who are not otaku.
Why don't we embrace one of Macross' key elements(ai/love) and stop arguing
about something that will never be resolved: our own personal undieing
resilience. I am not saying to stop voicing your option, but just don't let
a post become a never ending flame war. If we spend as much time writing in
a more peaceful manner, rather than to reply with harsh words to one
another, we would all be a little happier. The is a newsgroup for us, the
fandom of Macross, which ever Macross or part of Macross you like. Let us
spread our interest by sharing information, questions, and resources with
others.
Windjammer win...@visi.net
New Macross Mechanical Archive
http://users.visi.net/~windjam/macross/
ICQ UIN: 10541546
j-j...@nwu.edu
In article <6l6b0g$d5c$1...@newsd-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Mori...@webtv.net (Marathon) wrote:
>
> Everybody has a valid point in this Macross vs Robotech thread, but it
> should be remembered that originally Macek tried to bring Macross to the
> States but in order to do so he had to have more than 36 episodes. I am
> not going to debate the job that Macek did with the original Macross and
> which he called Robotech, but I will say that a lot of people (myself
> included) that were originally exposed to Macek's Robotech Macross are
> now much more interested in finding as much they can about Kawamori's
> original Macross than they do about rehashing the old Robotech
> storyline. That is why I keep surfing the net and frequenting this
> newsgroup to satisfy my curiosity regarding the original Macross
> storyline.
>
it weren't for Robotech (I might have gone for Macross Plus; I don't know).
Therefore, I can't find it in me to hate Robotech, despite all the hackings.
> A lot more people in this newsgroup seem to be more knowledgeable about
> Macros Plus and Macross 7 than they are about the original Macross. A
> case in point is the fact that out of all the people who normally
> contribute to this newsgroup, only Egan Loo was able to answer the
> question that eldemonio posted (what was 'Lonely Song' , the episode
> that got changed into something totally different titled 'The Robotech
> Masters', all about?).
This is also attributed to the lack of translated Macross episodes available.
Most of us who have seen Macross after episode 16 had to watch it in raw
Japanese. I've seen a bunch after what the perfect collection provides, but
I certainly don't understand it.
I think it's possible that they ( the Robotech
> bashers) themselves MAY know more about Robotech than they MIGHT want to
> acknowledge than they do about the original Macross.
>
Despite my harsh criticisms, I don't consider myself a Robotech basher. And I
do know more a little more about the Robotech Macross version than the
original. I have no shame in admitting that, just frustration that there's
practically nothing more I can do to learn about the original episodes until
someone translates them (all of them) or makes an available script.
> So as much as some people here might cringe, the fact remains that if
> there had been no Robotech, a lot of people like me would never had
> known about its origin which we all know is Macross.
>
Considering how much I follow Macross these days, I can't say that Robotech
was completely a bad idea. I'm glad that Streamline put at least some effort
to make the original series available to us. However, I also can't forgive
some of the negative effects that Robotech has done.
rcr...@rstcorp.com
In article <6l6b0g$d5c$1...@newsd-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Mori...@webtv.net (Marathon) wrote:
>
> Everybody has a valid point in this Macross vs Robotech thread, but it
> should be remembered that originally Macek tried to bring Macross to the
> States but in order to do so he had to have more than 36 episodes. I am
> not going to debate the job that Macek did with the original Macross and
> which he called Robotech, but I will say that a lot of people (myself
> included) that were originally exposed to Macek's Robotech Macross are
> now much more interested in finding as much they can about Kawamori's
> original Macross than they do about rehashing the old Robotech
> storyline. That is why I keep surfing the net and frequenting this
> newsgroup to satisfy my curiosity regarding the original Macross
> storyline.
> So as much as some people here might cringe, the fact remains that if
> there had been no Robotech, a lot of people like me would never had
> known about its origin which we all know is Macross.
Yeah, I'd have to agree. I, myself, have never seen any Macross beyond DYRL.
I haven't even seen Macross Plus or Macross 7 yet. Just haven't been able to
tell if I'll like them or not. But anyhow... I feel the same way. As soon as
I found out what the different series in Robotech really were, I started
trying to find out as much information as I could about the originals.
Unfortunately, costs keep me from actually being able to SEE the originals,
but at least I know more now than I did before.
I think, though, that one of the things that a lot of Macross purists take
offense to are those people who don't bother trying to find out more. Those
people who choose to remain ignorant. Or, maybe even worse, the people who
mix up the two and confuse anyone who's trying to actually learn something.
But it's true... a lot less Americans would know about Macross today if there
hadn't been Robotech. O.K., I can't say that's true for a FACT, but it seems
entirely likely. I honestly wouldn't have heard of Yamato, either, if there
hadn't been Star Blazers. Or Captain Harlock. Or anything like that. So...
despite any harm Robotech has done... it's made a contribution to fandom, as
well...
Sh1Aziza
>Why don't we embrace one of Macross' key elements(ai/love) and stop arguing
>about something that will never be resolved: our own personal undieing
>resilience
Windjammer's right. I feel teary eyes. Ah, sigh.
>If we spend as much time writing in
>a more peaceful manner, rather than to reply with harsh words to one
>another, we would all be a little happier.
Let's stop acting like jerks dissing other Macross fans and give each other a
group hug.
>The is a newsgroup for us, the
>fandom of Macross, which ever Macross or part of Macross you like. Let us
>spread our interest by sharing information, questions, and resources with
>others.
And we can do this without major attitudes. I'm so moved. A lot of us have a
lot of passion being that we are fans (stemming from the word fanatic) but let
us redirect our energies into the positive. (Ugg, sound like my mom). I think
there should be like a code of ethics or honor. Like "you should honor all
Macross fans and even the series and speak respectfully of it (especially if
Kawamori was involved on the project)" Okay?? ^_^
Gen Domel
I like it. If it's got Miria and Max, it's OK in my book!
Stone Cold.... you've been frying your brain with too much of that
pro-wrastlin'!
General Lysis(Domel Shogun)
antoniofl...@gmail.com
> Man I just watched that piece of shit in its entirety and it sucks major
> &%(&&^&%^% dick!!!! This wasn't Macross, it was bullshit! Rock & Roll
>
> Don't fuckin' call it Macross if its not Macross!!
>
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
