probable fuel starvation when driving uphill (200Tdi Disco 1993)
Pantelis Giamarellos
my 200Tdi Discovery (ex Camel Trophy 1994 Greek Team vehicle) has started
developing a severe case of hicup when travelling at even the slightest
uphill roads.
I have removed the fuel sender (no electric fuel pump on those engines).
There was about two spoonfulls of sludge in there which I have removed. The
car started driving better but then developed the same symptoms again.
I have emptied the fuel tank and cleaned it thoroughly.
The car started driving like a dream once more on level roads but when the
first slight incline was met the hicup (feels like fuel starvation) has
appeared again as if nothing had been done about it.
The car has had its fuel pump (the one with the hand priming lever on the
side) replaced about 15.000 km (about 10.000 miles) ago.
Apart from the sludge I have removed lots of debris, dust, small rocks
(thanks God no frogs, trolls or dirty shocks or underwear) from the fuel
tank.
The fuel fitler was also replaced with a clean fresh and new one. The old
one has been used for less than 5.000 km and it was not dirty. But I have
replaced it anyway.
One more thing that I noticed was that the rubber and cloth covered fuel
return pipe connecting injector 2 to injector 3 was leaking and I have
replaced it.
But the problem persists and may even be more serious than before.
When the engine eventually dies from fuel starvation it starts again after
turning the starter motor for about 3 to 4 seconds and pressing the
accelerator pedal. Then the engine starts with a very slow and uneven idle
which pretty soon develops to a steady idle. The car behaves nicely for
about the next 2 to 4 kms and then starts again to hicup.
I would be grateful for your input and suggestions.
Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr
Dave Liquorice
> When the engine eventually dies from fuel starvation it starts again
> after turning the starter motor for about 3 to 4 seconds and pressing
> the accelerator pedal. Then the engine starts with a very slow and
> uneven idle which pretty soon develops to a steady idle. The car behaves
> nicely for about the next 2 to 4 kms and then starts again to hicup.
Apart from the distance (in my case about 10 miles) those are very
similar symptoms to what I had with a failed injector seal the other
week. Completely different engine though mine is a TD5 so there were
combustion gases getting into the common rail. But on the basis of
similar symptoms I'd look for an iffy fuel line or joint that could
allow air to be drawn air into the system or maybe collapse
(internally) when there is a increase in the suck.
At the same time flush all the lines through (both ways) particulary
those pre the filter. Sounds as if there has been quite a bit of muck
in the fuel over time, maybe there is a little bit of crud acting as
a valve when the flow rate increases.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Pantelis Giamarellos
will check the injector seals, fuel return rubber pipes between the other
injectors (especially after having the change one of them) and will use some
compressed air to blow the fuel supply and fuel return pipes from the fuel
tank to the fuel filter and vice versa.
Thanks again for the input and hope your problem with the TD5 has now been
sorted out.
Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk...
Dave Liquorice
> will check the injector seals,
Not sure that is relevant with a 200TDi. On the TD5 if the bottom
seal fails combustion gases get into the common (pressurised to 50
odd psi) fuel rail that in the injectors pass through.
> Thanks again for the input
Only clutching at straws, you have already changed/checked the
obvious things like pumps filters etc.
> and hope your problem with the TD5 has now been sorted out.
Yes, something over £300 lighter in the wallet though. New injector
seals on all five injectors, new injector harness (it had oil in it),
new front cam seal (leaking) and new rocker cover gasket. It now
starts on the button and seems to be running smoother than it was
even before it started to noticeably play up. I've got the copper
washer that failed. Silly isn't it, a £1.94 (inc VAT) copper washer
stops the engine working. At a push I bet you could make one from a
bit of opened out and flattened 15mm tube...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Pantelis Giamarellos
I have just finished replacing the fuel return rubber and fabric hoses
between the injectors. The appear quite "weathered up". After all this a
1993 model year vehicle so they are 18 years old...
I have also emptied the fuel sedimentor. I was extremely lucky and managed
to open the small white plastic plug from underneath. This plug has NEVER
been opened for as long as I own the vehicle (since 2000) and I am sure it
has never been opened before.
A lot of grey water, several debris, soil and tiny rocks came out and when
diesel started pouring out it was black and oily/sludgy. I only refitted
the plug when fresh clean diesel came off.
The engine started immediately but when I took the car for a drive it
started misbehaving, the idle went up and down. I started pressing the
accelerator pedal softly and idle started leveling.
After than I pressed the pedal so that the revs went up to around 1500 to
2000 rpm and after about 30 seconds I started driving once more. The car
felt jerky but after about 2 kms it also started feeling OK.
I will take a drive to some uphill roads tomorrow morning and let's hope
everything will be OK.
------------
The oil in the engine loom problem is something I have also experienced
first hands with two TD5 vehicles of good friends of mine here in Greece.
As for the injectors seals I totally agree with you. Such kind of thing
should not happen on a car that is supposed to be able to travel around the
world and back.
Take care and thanks again for your assistance.
Pantelis
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk...
Lee_D
news:9518lv...@mid.individual.net...
Had similar with a RRC with the VM engine. in that case it was the fuel line
where it comes out of the tank which had become perforated. As it only had
diesel in when being pulled up by the pump from the engine (lift pump) it
never leaked diesel but did leak air in. Initially (for months) it was just
stalling after start then lumpy then fine. As the perforation got worse the
symptoms developed and affected the engine upon deceleration it would stall
due to lack of fuel , pump not pumping fast enough to keep the air and fuel
coming in.
This week I went camping and got talking to a Disco 300 tdi owner (trying to
lighten my caravan by giving away old copies of landrover mags I've been
carting around). Anyway he said he had problems with the water seporator
becoming pourous on the top of the casting.. worth checking as that would
give similar symptoms to the leaking / pourous pipe.
Hope you manage to get it sorted. Let us know how you go on.
Lee D
Dave Liquorice
> I will take a drive to some uphill roads tomorrow morning and let's hope
> everything will be OK.
All that muck, water, etc in the fuel system can't have been helping
things. The 200TDi isn't computer controlled is it? Computer
controlled engines mask an awful lot of problems until the computer
runs out of range in the tweaks it can do to keep the engine running
and at best (for the conditions) efficiency.
A visiting friend complained that his (petrol) car wasn't preforming
very well. Lifted the bonnet, found a small split hose in the
air/fuel/emission control system. Tapped that up with
self-amalgamting tape. Took the plugs out, each one had an umbrella
of deposit over the outer electrode and a gap of about 75 thou with
and well eroded electrodes. Local garage didn't have any replacements
so I just cleaned and gapped as best I could. Friend reported that
the car now went like a bomb... I doubt that a none computer
controlled engine would have started let alone run reasonably well in
that condition.
> As for the injectors seals I totally agree with you. Such kind of thing
> should not happen on a car that is supposed to be able to travel around
> the world and back.
At least you could fashion something out of a bit of scrap copper
should the need arise rather than being some exotic alloy or shape. I
suspect the hard bit would be getting the old ones out from the
bottom of the injector recess. Nigel Price's had the bonnet off to
allow access for a slide hammer.
--
Cheers
Dave.
DaveB
>
> I have also emptied the fuel sedimentor. I was extremely lucky and managed
> to open the small white plastic plug from underneath. This plug has NEVER
> been opened for as long as I own the vehicle (since 2000) and I am sure it
> has never been opened before.
>
> A lot of grey water, several debris, soil and tiny rocks came out and when
> diesel started pouring out it was black and oily/sludgy. I only refitted
> the plug when fresh clean diesel came off.
>
Sounds like you found some Camel Trophy "souvenirs" or something. :-)
If the crud had got that far, change the main filter again!
Also, check the little gause filter in the lift pump. In fact, strip
that down and clean out it's little one-way valves, and while you have
it all in pieces, blow the lift line back to the tank with an air line
(Low presure!)
There is another gause/sintered bead filter at the inlet of the main
injection pump. That *Should* never see any dirt, but if the main
filter/lift system was struggling, they can when old sometimes feed
themselves from the spill side. Then air/dirt can get in causing all
sorts of strange things. Those pumps will self purge (of air) but not
dirt.
If after you've cleaned/replaced everything and have clean fuel all the
way to the main injeciton pump, the only thing left is that injection
pump, and injectors. Find a localy recomended diesel specialist, but
be aware the injectors are repair by replacement, so not cheap by any
means. The pump can be overhauled, if not too badly damaged.
Hope you get it sorted.
Dave B.
Pantelis Giamarellos
I have ordered a new lift pump but it will take around 5 days to arrive in
Greece (200Tdi Landies are rare as hens teeth in Greece and there is no
spare parts stock anywhere in the country)
I will remove the lift pump and give it a good clean. Will try to do the
same with the fuel supply line to the main pump.
Will also put some low volume compressed air (a small tyre compressor will
do?) to the fuel supply and return hoses.
thanks again to everybody for your input.
I will of course advise you of the outcome.
Take care
Pantelis
"Lee_D" <nos...@nospamlrprojectnospam.com> wrote in message
news:4debe2b9$0$2518$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
hugh
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes
>All that muck, water, etc in the fuel system can't have been helping
>things. The 200TDi isn't computer controlled is it? Computer
>controlled engines mask an awful lot of problems until the computer
>runs out of range in the tweaks it can do to keep the engine running
>and at best (for the conditions) efficiency
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha
DaveB
says...
>
> In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
> Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes
> >All that muck, water, etc in the fuel system can't have been helping
> >things. The 200TDi isn't computer controlled is it? Computer
> >controlled engines mask an awful lot of problems until the computer
> >runs out of range in the tweaks it can do to keep the engine running
> >and at best (for the conditions) efficiency
> Computers weren't invented in the days the 200TDi
Don't you believe it! Many Heavy Vehicle and Industrial Diesel engines
have been computer controled for much longer than those in cars and
small van's. Just that they weren't known as "Computers".
The technology goes way back, probably to the airospace industry in
truth.
Computers only do what you tell them, but they do it repeatedly many
many times a second. So, you best tell them exactly what you want them
to do, correctly the first time! Also, any sensor readings must make
sense to the controling software. That is all down to the
designer/programmer.
Garbage in = garbage out etc...
Even the 200TDi disco, had some smarts in the body control box, also
many contempory cars had electronicly controled systems for decades, if
not directly the engine. Most (if not all now?) alternators are
electronicly controled (I think only the French held out for a few
years, with vibrating relays etc, on some Peugot/Citroen/Renault units)
many also now have built in small microprocessors for smarter charging,
and battery/machine/drive belt protection. Not that you can communicate
with them in any way. However, some new Fords (among others) now have
a direct communication path between the alternator and ECU for Smart
Charging control, delay'd/soft start etc, among other things...
Electronics is generaly extremly reliable, but can easily fail due to
water ingress, excessive vibration, overheating or electrical overload.
I.e. Finger trouble, bad connectors, numptys welding not reading the
"Caution!" section in the manual first, fitting the wrong parts, or just
elsewhere messing with things not knowing exactly what they are doing,
or why...
In cases where something odd starts to happen, you need to stand back
and think first, what else is connected to the system that's showing the
symptoms. Could it be some other system sending it bad info, or not
responding to it's other needs. THAT info is sadly also not often
available outside the industry (Heck, many in the auto industry don't
know of it) but some of it can be figured out by observing other things.
Like what else has stopped working, or is otherwise acting up...
Vehicles are now more like mobile data networks, powered by an engine of
some sort. A lot of DIY maintenance is still posible, but convincing
the monitoring systems you've done what's needed can still be dificult
and expensive without the appropriate tools, such as OBDE connectors and
utilities etc, plus the knowledge to use it. THAT's where the main
dificulty is, the info is not often available outside the industry. But
it is slowley getting better.
There is some good general info here in the form of case studdies, of
various auto woes and troubles...
http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-library.html
Also, scroll down to the list of "Real Life Diagnostics" and further
down to the list of "Everyday Diagnostics".
Enjoy.
DaveB
John Williamson
>
> Vehicles are now more like mobile data networks, powered by an engine of
> some sort. A lot of DIY maintenance is still posible, but convincing
> the monitoring systems you've done what's needed can still be dificult
> and expensive without the appropriate tools, such as OBDE connectors and
> utilities etc, plus the knowledge to use it. THAT's where the main
> dificulty is, the info is not often available outside the industry. But
> it is slowley getting better.
>
> There is some good general info here in the form of case studdies, of
> various auto woes and troubles...
> http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-library.html
> Also, scroll down to the list of "Real Life Diagnostics" and further
> down to the list of "Everyday Diagnostics".
>
http://www.picoauto.com/tutorials/vehicle-owner.html
"Is it Possible to Determine the Fault Just by the Vehicle Owner?"
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
Jeff
> Even the 200TDi disco, had some smarts in the body control box,,
Well mine hasn't!! It hasn't even got a 'body control box'.
It will run quite happily with no electrical power whatsoever as long as
you disable the cut-off solenoid first.
The nearest it gets to a computer is a timer in the glow plug circuit
and wiper delay, oh! and in the flasher unit.
Jeff
hugh
<g8...@uko2.co.uk> writes
know the 200TDi was a mechanically fuelled engine. The 300 Tdi was much
more modern -it has an EGR system. (Another joke, sort of - more sarcasm
I suppose)
hugh
<johnwil...@btinternet.com> writes
of course?
Pantelis Giamarellos
you forgot the dashboard mounted digital clock and the factory fitted or
aftermarket ICE unit !!!! (LOL !!!!)
Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr
"Jeff" <je...@jsystems.com> wrote in message
news:islfnr$lid$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Pantelis Giamarellos
I have tried first to apply some low volume compressed air to the fuel
supply line.
I did so by removing the hose providing fuel from the fuel filter to the big
pump (the one distributing fuel to the injectors. The easiest approach was
to remove the rubber hose from the fuel filter mounting bracket.
This way I was able to fit the cheap tire compressor directly to the
metallic hose (it is the same diameter as a tyre valve).
I have also removed the fuel cap from the fuel tank so as to allow any air
to escape more easily (it should be able to escape from the fuel tank
venting hoses but opening the fuel cap is a far safer bet I guess.)
The compressor started operating and it slowly crept up to about 12 bars of
pressure for about a few seconds. It then lowered to around 6 and started
climbing to about 8 bars for a few more second and has kept this reading.
I stopped the compressor and let it stand for about a minute.
And then I removed the connector from the metallic hose when I have attached
it to the fuel filter mounting bracket.
A spray of diesel fuel has erupted with lot of force (I guess it must have
been the pressurized fuel inside the fuel filter and still compressed fuel
lines)
I refitted the rubber hose and have started the engine. The engine started
immediately but then it developed a very erratic idle due to fuel
starvation. Pressing the accelerator pedal slowly and gradually for several
seconds resulted into properly venting the fuel system (thanks God the Tdi
does that by itself).
And then I took the car for a drive.
AT LAST the car behaves as a true and well behaving 200Tdi. I have now
covered almost 200 km, going uphill, downhill, in and out of the torque
band, up to 4.200 rmp, accelerating from as low as 500 rpm with load and on
every gear. There is no more hesitation, no fuel starvation symptoms,
nothing at all.
So whatever you do I would suggest the "inflate the fuel supply hoses"
approach for such type of problems.
Apperently some of the dirt, debris and sludge was still inside the fuel
line from the fuel tank to the sedimentor and from there to the fuel filter.
"Inflating" the system must have cleaned/removed them and the engine drives
and feels again as new.
Thanks to everybody for your assistance.
Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr
"Pantelis Giamarellos" <pa...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:953vod...@mid.individual.net...
Jeff
> Jeff you are wrong (LOL, only kidding)
>
> you forgot the dashboard mounted digital clock and the factory fitted or
> aftermarket ICE unit !!!! (LOL !!!!)
>
> Take care
> Pantelis Giamarellos
> www.lrcg.gr
>
Drat it! You're right!!
Jeff
Lee_D
Glad you got it sorted. Hope it keeps behaving now.
Lee D