Zeus timing gear conversions?
MichaelT
sales, but I cannot find any user experiences etc. There was a user
installation guide published in LRO in 1999 I understand. Anyone really
using them? Is there any improvement in economy? Are they noisy? Given that
belts need replacement at 60,000k (40,000 miles) how well do they last?
Michael T
Pantelis Giamarellos
this may be of assistance
http://www.rovingtheglobe.com/default.asp?sec=jal&url=Sections/Equipment/Veh
icles/Technical/Obsolete/ZeusTimingGears/Introduction.asp
It is a negative experience but it did make me have second thoughts about
this conversion.
Take care
Pantelis
"MichaelT" <mich...@thomzone.com> wrote in message
news:0rQTe.26202$FA3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Richard Brookman
Google it, especially on this group - there was quite a discussion a while
ago. Some very much for, some against. A summary, as I recall it -
noisier, stays in tune better, slight improvement in economy, early problems
with plastic gears later solved, very expensive, not a good idea for
expedition vehicles as parts not easily available world-wide if it does go
wrong. The guy who was importing them to (I think) Oz had a lot to say, all
in favour as you might imagine.
Plenty to read if you look for it.
--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)
A
"MichaelT" <mich...@thomzone.com> wrote in message
news:0rQTe.26202$FA3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Well after finding out how much it cost to buy it and (if I wanted them to
fit it) + VAT just over £1K, I thought the longevity of a belt and the
damage that is caused by a snapped belt, you could repair with new parts 4
times for £1K. The engines probably knackard by then, so I would rather
stick with what I have got and its alot quieter than poxy gears!
Alistair
SteveG
I have no personal experience of the Zeus timing gear conversion but a
good friend of mine had it done on his 300Tdi Discovery and doesn't have
a bad word to say about it ... or the company. He took the vehicle to
Exeter to have the conversion done by Zeus (who provided his with a loan
car for the day). When he went back to collect the car the work had been
completed and the vehicle valeted. They pointed out a couple of things
they had noticed whilst doing the job that would need attention in the
future - hoses starting to crack, etc.
My mate called me on his mobile on the way back home and was very
enthusiastic. According to his initial assessment the Discovery was much
livelier, especially in the mid-range, and not noticeably noisier. Lets
face it a 300Tdi ain't the quietest engine ever made :-)
It's been about 18 months since he had the conversion done and the Disco
has covered loads of miles (to and from Germany every week) and he still
enthuses about it. I've stood with the bonnet up and listening hard
could hear the gears whirring away .. but it's hardly "noisy". He hasn't
been able to tell if the gear modification improved fuel consumption
because just a week later he had an Allard inter-cooler fitted.
HTH
--
Regards
Steve G
Austin Shackles
<mich...@thomzone.com> enlightened us thusly:
They're reputed to be noisier than a belt.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then
something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination -
we learned to talk." Pink Floyd (1994)
Phillip Simpson
I'm the bloke in Australia who "went to bat" for the Zeus
gears when they were attacked on the forum.
I know well the site that Pantellis refers to,and all I can say is
that all is not what it appears. I've defended the gears in the forums
and also in the legal system and in both cases am happy with the
results.
My own Disco had gears fitted at 103000km and they're going fine at
216,000 km. If you visit our website
you will see that dyno data on the improvement in performance (about
27%, and fuel improvement is around 12%).
In real terms all this means I get about 120 kms extra per tank, and
can use my engine from 1100rpm upwards. On the timing belt you need to
wait for the turbo which comes in at 1850 rpm.
About 3 yrs ago I worked out that within 75000 kms a person with gears
saves money compared to someone on timing belt when its changed every
50000kms. Given the recent 35 % increase in diesel prices the period
is shorter.
I have both a disco and defender with the gears fitted, and wouldn't
want to even think of driving a 300 with the rubber timing belt.
Yes there is a bit more noise at idle, but this is from the injector
pump lifters. Yes there is an improvement in economy and better
performance as the engine can now be used from 1100 rpm, which makes
towing, around town driving in traffic , off road driving all much
better.
If you have an automatic then the improvement is very noticeable on
cold mornings when the engine is cold.
As I have stated frequently in the public domain, I'm a real user and
believer in the Zeus timing gears. I've thoroughly researched all the
"stories" and "expert opinions" and nothing has caused me to change my
opinion on the gears, nor seen any reason to stop selling them or
remove them from my own vehicles or those of many of my friends.
I would suggest you ring Graham at Zeus and speak to him directly
about the gears. Ask him the longest mileage on a set of gears that he
has seen ( about 250,000 miles).
Cheers
Phillip Simpson
On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 05:59:24 GMT, "MichaelT" <mich...@thomzone.com>
wrote:
Pantelis Giamarellos
I would be extremely interested to get more recent news on the development
of the dispute with the person who had this negative experience with the
Zeus timing kit(s).
There are a so many apparent advantages on this timing gear setup that it is
a pity for such a case to be creating problems to it for what appears to be
an unfortunate but extremely rare case.
Your valued input is expected with interest and anticipation.
Take care
Pantelis
"Phillip Simpson" <psim...@yican.com.au> wrote in message
news:7u10i1t86343f27j9...@4ax.com...
Alex
<pa...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Phillip Hi,
>
>
>There are a so many apparent advantages on this timing gear setup that it is
>a pity for such a case to be creating problems to it for what appears to be
>an unfortunate but extremely rare case.
>
Beats me what the hell was wrong with Landrover that they couldn't
stick to a timing chain in the first place.
Alex
Richard Brookman
> Hi Michael,
> I'm the bloke in Australia who "went to bat" for the Zeus
> gears when they were attacked on the forum.
<snip>
> you will see that dyno data on the improvement in performance (about
> 27%, and fuel improvement is around 12%).
Phillip - I read all your comments on this a while back (hope I wasn't too
rude when I summarised it in an earlier post). What puzzles me is why a
vehicle with timing gears is said to perform so much better - in performance
and economy. There is a certain relationship between cam, crank and
injector pump which a newly-fitted belt will maintain, and presumably the
gearset will keep this relationship. How can a gearset improve on a new
belt? I can see a gearset maintaining the settings better than a belt over
time as the belt will wear and stretch (although when I took the old cambelt
off my 300Tdi it was a bit of a wrestling match, so it can't have stretched
much!) - but not by 27%. What do the gears do that a belt can't?
Phillip Simpson
no problem with your summary.
I see you have an auto, so will be familiar with the cold morning
"lack of power" I was referring to.
The dyno study I refer to was on my disco with a new timing belt
fitted approx 3700km prior to the study. Like you I was surprised at
the amount of improvement, but found it very reproduceable.
The real test is not how hard it is to pull the old belt off, but to
measure the position of the injector pump and cam shaft variation with
the engine locked at TDC- see how much anti clockwise movement you can
get on the pump and camshaft. Remember that when you're doing this,
the engine isn't under load, so you are looking at minimums, when it
comes to the amount of retardation.
I have never seen a belt that wasn't stretched and that didn't cause
both the injector pump and cam shaft to be retarded. This is what
causes the deterioration in performance with the belt. The gears
simply keep the timing the same, irrespective of the engine speed etc.
Given the loading at the lower revs, until the turbo comes in, is why
the difference is so marked.
It doesn't take much retarding of the injector pump or cam shaft to
have an impact on the performance, so the comparison with geared
timing is pretty elementary. I had heard a lot of anectedotal comments
on the gears "extra performance" which was why I had the dyno study
done at the local technical college. We actually did the study on 2
vehicles (my disco and a low km defender) and the results were the
same.
The 27% is not the amount of belt stretch, but rather the improvement
in power. As you can see from the graph it is a peak, and happens at
the lower rpm range. I don't know the maths to calculate the timing
belt variance needed to give X degrees variation on the pump, but
remember that it is both the camshaft and the pump that are retarded.
All the gears are doing is maintaining the timing with the constant
geometry of gears as compared to the variable nature of belts. Even
timing chains vary with time, and with the timing belt the effect
simply happens sooner.
Hopefully this answers your questions, but if not just keep sending
them.
Cheers
Phillip
Phillip Simpson
there has been no further developements in the last couple of
years. The issue was taken before a tribunal (small claims court)by
the people involved and the original case, and subsequent appeal that
they made were unsuccesful ie no case was proven against the Zeus
gears, Zeus or my own company. Interestingly the people who produce
the website you refer to, were not accepted by the tribunial to act as
expert witnesses and present data or be cross examined on their
opinions.
The sad thing is that while we won the case, they perhaps have a win
by publishing material that causes doubt. This does 2 things, and you
are a good example of one of them ie you didn't purchase gears because
of the doubt that was created. Secondly it devalues the resale price
on those vehicles where people have gears fitted. Fortunately most
people fit the gears to enable them to keep the vehicle for a long
period of time, so this is less of an issue.
All I can say is that with the increase in diesel prices, and the way
my disco performs, I'm glad I've got gears fitted. Perhaps I've failed
in countering the bad stories, but such is the way of the world. As
one song writer wrote, "good news never sells papers".
Cheers
Phillip
Richard Brookman
> no problem with your summary.
>
> I see you have an auto, so will be familiar with the cold morning
> "lack of power" I was referring to.
Not since I gave it to Jeremy Fearn for a day! Seriously, it's not too bad,
and I'd never considered cold running to be a problem. However...
> The real test is not how hard it is to pull the old belt off,
I was only joking here - if that's a stretched belt, how tight is a new one
going to be? (I found out about an hour later. Bástard tight is the
technical term.)
> I have never seen a belt that wasn't stretched and that didn't cause
> both the injector pump and cam shaft to be retarded. This is what
> causes the deterioration in performance with the belt. The gears
> simply keep the timing the same, irrespective of the engine speed etc.
> Given the loading at the lower revs, until the turbo comes in, is why
> the difference is so marked.
Surely when the turbo comes in that will increase the loading on the belt?
The crank pulley is pulling the belt round against the resistance of the cam
and pump pulleys, so the harder it pulls the more the belt will try to
stretch.
> It doesn't take much retarding of the injector pump or cam shaft to
> have an impact on the performance
I can see the reasoning here, although logically if the difference is due to
the absence of belt stretch you would see only a marginal difference over a
new belt and a bigger improvement compared with a well-worn belt. Your dyno
tests were on an almost new belt (just over 2k miles).
> The 27% is not the amount of belt stretch, but rather the improvement
> in power.
That's how I read it - I was being a little humorous. Although considering
how much modification you need to do to a standard engine to push the output
up by 27%, I'm surprised that the gearset can achieve this on its own.
Either the gearset is working some kind of magic, or the original setup is
thoroughly crap.
> As you can see from the graph it is a peak, and happens at
> the lower rpm range.
I read this group on a non-binary server, so no graph.
> All the gears are doing is maintaining the timing with the constant
> geometry of gears as compared to the variable nature of belts. Even
> timing chains vary with time, and with the timing belt the effect
> simply happens sooner.
The principle makes sense, but I'm still a little amazed that the Zeus gears
can give such an improvement merely by keeping the crank/pump/cam timing as
it should be. Why didn't LR think of this? Cost?
Steve Taylor
> The principle makes sense, but I'm still a little amazed that the Zeus gears
> can give such an improvement merely by keeping the crank/pump/cam timing as
> it should be. Why didn't LR think of this? Cost?
Why not just fit a duplex chain ?
Steve
Phillip Simpson
as you have seen, the belt needs to be very tight. The point
of testing a new belt was to show that even when they've done only a
small amount of work, they impact the timing, performance etc. If I
ever had heaps of time and money, it would be interesting to run the
tests on new belt, 2000 miles up to 8000 miles, as the variance starts
quite soon.
The other interesting point of the impact of the Zeus gears on timing
etc, is the big difference in the exhaust emmissions. With the gears,
and simply due to correct timing, there is an enormous reduction in
exhaust emmissions. I didn't collect any data on this as its not part
of regular testing preocess in Australia like you have on the MOT
system.
Who knows why LR do anything, but I suspect that the 200 timing belt
was OK, so since it is cheaper and quieter they continued with the
belts. Funny how this was changed with the TD5- one explanation I've
heard is that the belt didn't have enough control to meet the EEC
exhaust emmission specs, which were becoming increasingly tighter.
Cheers
Phillip
PS The graph is on our website, not on the newsgroup
Pantelis Giamarellos
> one song writer wrote, "good news never sells papers".
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Phillip
Phillip Hi,
I totally agree with you on that.
I guess your lawyers should ask for the inclusion of the tribunal's decision
in the offending site.
The main reason I decided not to fit the Zeus kit was only because I do not
expect to cover the distance required to set-off the expense of the kit and
its fitting.
I do not cover more than 15.000 to 20.000 km annualy so it did not make any
sense to invest for the kit.
But I have to accept that the site has had its negative contribution to my
decision not to fit the kit eventhough it is a very tempting suggestion on
performance and fuel economy grounds.
As for fuel economy I have opted for another solution which gave excellent
results but that topic has already been discussed to its exhaustion on this
newsgroup. But I still get around 15% less on my fuel bills.
Take care
Pantelis
Austin Shackles
<new...@nowhere.com> enlightened us thusly:
>Surely when the turbo comes in that will increase the loading on the belt?
>The crank pulley is pulling the belt round against the resistance of the cam
>and pump pulleys, so the harder it pulls the more the belt will try to
>stretch.
not sure if that's valid - the resistance of cams and pump is not going to
increase linearly, I wouldn't think.
I suspect the problem is that the engines are set up static and run dynamic
- the belt behaving differently as a result - a bit like the effects you get
from static ignition timing versus dynamic ignition timing.
On our TDi, I've advanced the pump by an unmeasured amount, probably about 4
degrees. This made it a good bit more responsive, whereas before it felt
"flat". Petrol engine experience leads me to conclude that retarded
ignition produces this result. Often my vehicles are set to run more
advanced than the book says...
I'm reluctant to play with cam timing on the TDi, though - there's no great
room for error. When we had to have the head off ours, there was evidence
that in the past the exhaust valves have hit the pistons.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Brevis esse laboro, Obscurus fio" (it is when I struggle to be
brief that I become obscure) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Ars Poetica, 25
Steve Taylor
> I'm reluctant to play with cam timing on the TDi, though - there's no great
> room for error. When we had to have the head off ours, there was evidence
> that in the past the exhaust valves have hit the pistons.
COULD you fit a timing chain to a 200Tdi....
Steve
Austin Shackles
<st...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:
anything's possible. Not all things are practical, however. "All" you need
is a suitable set of sprockets and a chain the right length. And maybe mods
to the tensioner, and a means of lubing it, and a means of draining the lube
back to the sump (easy enough, timing case drain piped into the sump) and of
course the casing would need to be made oil-tight if it wasn't already.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
Robert Frost (1874-1963) from Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
Carl Pretorius
Hi, I have a system like this that came stripped to me and now I want to
assemble it back together but the vehicle is lazy. Does anyone have a
installation manual so I can verify my marks or so?
--
for full context, visit https://www.motorsforum.com/landrover/zeus-timing-gear-conversions-61444-.htm