pressure coming OUT of the intake manifold

[pant...@gmail.com]

People Hi from Greece,

my 1994 ex Greek Team Camel Trophy Discovery 200Tdi had developed a clicking noise for about four months now after running it with WVO (waste vegetable oil) for the previous 2 months.
Apart from the clicking noise it also started smoking heavily from the exhaust especially when the engine was cold. White to whitish-grey smoke which smelled of diesel not oil.

After reading a lot on the various fora/forums I changed the timing of the pump (the BOSCH VE one) and the clicking noise has almost gone along with the heavy whitish smoke from the exhaust.

But then, after about 500 Kms both symptoms reappeared and the clicking noise became stronger along with heavier whitish smoking from the exhaust.

Today while driving the noise became much stronger and a lot different, the smoke became black when trying to accelerate and the engine lost power. But the most alarming thing is that it sounded like trying to explode.

I opened the bonnet and realized that the rubber hose connecting the intercooler to the intake manifold what pulsating and that there was air trying to come OUT of the air filter housing (remember this is a camel trophy Discovery and it was a mantec snorkel fitted to the air filter housing).

When we finally managed to drive back home I removed the rubber hose from the intake manifold and the car has started sounding as if I have removed the exhaust while on the same time there was air coming OUT of the intake manifold (which should normally suck air inside towards the engine).

What what do you thing about it?

I believe that there must be something very wrong with one, hopefully not more than one, exhaust valves or pushrods or with the timing of the engine.
Could it be a problem with the timing belt "jumping" more than one tooth?

Could it be a problem with the fuel pump because of the use of WVO ?

your comments and ideas are greatly appreciated.

Since on every previous occasion the Greek mechanics managed to create more problems then the ones they have tried to solve I have decided to try and fix this problem myself with your assistance, knowledge and experience.

If any of you has had this problem in the past, based on the described symptoms, I would be grateful if you could share your knowledge and experience.

I do have the workshop manual, full set of tools including torque wrench, a complete upper engine gasket and bolts kit, a full timing belt kit and a spare cylinder head.

thanks in advance for your kind assistance

Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr
LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:12:13 -0800 (PST), pant...@gmail.com wrote:

> When we finally managed to drive back home I removed the rubber hose
> from the intake manifold and the car has started sounding as if I have
> removed the exhaust while on the same time there was air coming OUT of
> the intake manifold (which should normally suck air inside towards the
> engine).
>
> What what do you thing about it?
>
> I believe that there must be something very wrong with one, hopefully
> not more than one, exhaust valves or pushrods or with the timing of
> the engine.

A knackered exhaust valve would only allow gases into the exhaust system.

A knackered inlet valve would let gases back to the inlet manifold.

Another posibilty is a blocked crankcase breather causing the crankcase
to pressurise, even ancient engines have a path from the crankcase to the
inlet manifold to control emmisions a bit.

> Could it be a problem with the timing belt "jumping" more than one
> tooth?

I'd have thought if the timing got that far out it wouldn't run at all,
even badly.

> Could it be a problem with the fuel pump because of the use of WVO ?

WVO will almost certainly be missing the engine lubricants that pump
diesel has, this may have enabled a weakness in a valve/valve seat to
become a serious problem. IIRC white smoke is fuel vapourised but not
burnt, black is too much fuel that has been burnt to some extent.

Think I'd do the simple things first like check the timeing and crankcase
breather(s).

--
Cheers
Dave.

[pant...@gmail.com]

Dave thanks,

will do that and revert.

By the way is there a simple way to check timing without removing the engine's front timing cover?

Thanks again for your kind input

Take care and have a nice weekend
Pantelis Giamarellos
www.lrcg.gr

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:53:01 -0800 (PST), pant...@gmail.com wrote:

> By the way is there a simple way to check timing without removing the
> engine's front timing cover?

On a diesel I wouldn't have thought so, nothing to spark the timing
light. B-) I don't know the engine, there might be marks on a pully and
a reference point somewhere, but that wouldn't confirm that a camshaft or
pump drive hadn't jumped a tooth or two. The book will tell you. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dougal]

On 07/03/2013 22:07, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:12:13 -0800 (PST), pant...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> When we finally managed to drive back home I removed the rubber hose
>> from the intake manifold and the car has started sounding as if I have
>> removed the exhaust while on the same time there was air coming OUT of
>> the intake manifold (which should normally suck air inside towards the
>> engine).
>>
>> What what do you thing about it?
>>
>> I believe that there must be something very wrong with one, hopefully
>> not more than one, exhaust valves or pushrods or with the timing of
>> the engine.

A damaged, presumably bent, pushrod is very obvious - sounds like very
wide rocker clearance. Unlikely to be the case here, I feel.

> A knackered exhaust valve would only allow gases into the exhaust system.
>
> A knackered inlet valve would let gases back to the inlet manifold.
>

> Another possibilty is a blocked crankcase breather causing the crankcase

> to pressurise, even ancient engines have a path from the crankcase to the

> inlet manifold to control emissions a bit.

There was deterioration during a journey. I don't think that a breather
problem would worsen suddenly.

>> Could it be a problem with the timing belt "jumping" more than one
>> tooth?
>
> I'd have thought if the timing got that far out it wouldn't run at all,
> even badly.
>
>> Could it be a problem with the fuel pump because of the use of WVO ?
>
> WVO will almost certainly be missing the engine lubricants that pump
> diesel has, this may have enabled a weakness in a valve/valve seat to
> become a serious problem.

> IIRC white smoke is fuel vapourised but not
> burnt, black is too much fuel that has been burnt to some extent.

Yes

> Think I'd do the simple things first like check the timing and crankcase
> breather(s).

Could be a blown head gasket between two cylinders allowing pressurised
air from one cylinder to enter another where the inlet valve is open.
This would result in loss of power. It would also, I think, result in
there being insufficient air for complete combustion and hence your
black smoke. Do a compression test - if bad enough it will be detectable
just by feel when turning the engine over by hand.

Holed piston? The compression test will reveal that, too.

I love your description "it sounded like (it was) trying to explode" but
can't quite 'visualise' it!

[pant...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:12:13 PM UTC+2, pant...@gmail.com wrote:

People Hi,

I have decided to proceed into opening the upper part of the cylinder head.

The outcome is two bent pushrods and one broken adjusting screw on a rocker. More precisely a slightly bent pushrod on the No. 1 cylinder and an even more slightly bent pushrod and a broken adjusting screw on the rocker of the No. 3 cylinder.

The reason this thing has happened is simply because my mechanic's grease monkey had not tightened the crankshaft to pulley bolt properly.
As a result the pulley dumper assembly has managed to damage the woodruff key and the crankshaft indentation where the woordruff key is located. This was "addressed" by the mechanic by simply spot welding the woodruff key on the crankshaft and the pulley dumper assembly.

But this of course was not the proper way to mend this kind of damage and it has resulted into further play both to the pulley dumper assembly and the crankshaft gear which drives the timing belt. But on the case of the gear the woodruff key was "eaten" by the gear. The gear drive was also "eaten" by the woodruff key and this has resulted in the engine gradually losing its timing.

And this was why the car was emitting the white smoke and the engine was rattling and it finally resulted in bending the pushrods and breaking the rocker to valve adjusting screw.

I believe that no further damage has resulted in the cylinders, pistons and cylinder head.

I am now waiting for the spare parts to arrive and following an extensive search on the internet for possible way to repair the damage have decided to use loctite metal filled epoxy putty (product number Loctite 3463) with a compression rating of 12000 psi for filling up the gap on the crankshaft, using the standard sized woodruff keys (after all the one holding the timing gear on the crankshaft had not damaged the crankshaft) and then using one more Loctite product for securing the pulleys onto the crankshaft (Loctite 638 used for securing bearing onto their housings or axles)
Photos of the damage and the procedure of removing the "eaten away" woodruff key from the crankshaft can be found here:
http://tinypic.com/a/2tfgh/1

I will be keeping you update on the outcome of the repair.

Thanks again to everybody for your kind assistance and suggestions.
Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

www.lrcg.gr

[Andrew Mawson]

wrote in message
news:0a3a4063-6dfa-4450...@googlegroups.com...

I presume that your 'mechanic' is paying for all this after bodging your
engine ?

AWEM

[pant...@gmail.com]

Andrew Hi,

the cost of the spare parts was not so expensive and the mechanic has been a long time friend. The problem was due to his assistants' negligence (in fact his assistants are his two sons...). So I chose simply to say to my friend that his assistants are worthless without him overlooking them.

The cost of my labor was zero since I have a lot of free time in my hands and being frank I actually enjoyed being able to repair a relatively complicated damage on my car.

The car has now covered more than 1500 Km without any kind of problem, smoke from the exhaust is gone, the engine sounds like new and the fuel consumption has returned to 11.5 litres per 100 km (which is extremely good for a 2.8 tonnes heavy genuine Camel Trophy vehicle with the roofrack, sand ladders, pioneering tools and front and rear Camel Trophy plaques on the roofrack.

The repair of the crankshaft was done using Loctite 3463 metal filled epoxy putty to fill up its damaged area and Loctite 624 (as per the Land Rover workshop manual) thread securing liquid for the crankshaft bolt and also applied between the damper pulley and the surface of the crankshaft. The whole assembly was left to rest and the "glues" to set properly.

Finger crossed that it will be a good repair for a long time....

Thanks to everybody for your kind input, proposals and ideas.

Take care and greetings from the sunny and always beautiful Greece.
Pantelis Giamarellos