fernando flores and werner erhard - NEED INFO!!!!!!
rpf...@my-dejanews.com
who has proofs of a business relation between flores and erhard in any way?
urgent. alex from germany
3.october 98
In article <6uucn8$k5a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
rpf...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Who knows anything about the relation between the former
> scientology member WERNER ERHARD and est founder and his former partner
> FERNANDO FLORES from chile? Flores is now using some of the Erhard EST/FORUM
> and also SCIENTOLOGY tech during his "consulting seminars" in Germany. His
> company name is BDA ( business design associates ). Flores has another
> company : Action Technologies, Inc., both from Alameda near San francisco. I
> have also heard that Flores developed the "Forum" for erhard.who has details?
> Is it correct that Scientology sued EST / FORUM ? Who won? Need also infos!!!
> Alex from germany
>
> enclosed an article from the Swiss News magazine FACTS, the SPIEGEL of
> switzerland, about a current big scandal in Germany where Flores is involved
> because of using the Forum/ Scientology tech in seminars with the company ABB,
> written by peter reichelt ( Helnwein book )and michael solomicky company ABB.
> Sorry, only in German.
> In that scandal is also the leader of the SPD party, Oskar Lafontaine,
> involved!!!! He tried to "protect" his Socialist friend fernando flores!!!!
>
> In article <3694c6ef...@news.snafu.de>,
> til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
> > ABB Kraftwerke wehrt sich
> >
> > Mannheimer Morgen
> > 25.9.1998
> >
> > Mannheim. Die Mannheimer ABB Kraftwerke AG hat sich
> > gestern gegen den Vorwurf in der Schweizer Zeitschrift
> > "FACTS" gewehrt, sie habe mit einer Beratergesellschaft
> > zusammengearbeitet, die sektenรคhnliche Methoden anwende.
> > In einer Information an sein Personal betont ABB,
> > "Business Design Associates" (BDA) รผberprรผft zu haben;
> > dabei hรคtten sich keine Hinweise "auf mangelnde Seriositรคt
> > oder Beziehungen zu sektenรคhnlichen Organisationen"
> > ergeben. Vielmehr habe sich das Projekt "Steam fรผr
> > Future", dessen Durchfรผhrung BDA begleite, als Erfolg
> > erwiesen. Das gehe auf die Mitarbeiter zurรผck, die das
> > Projekt "in kontinuierlicher Zusammenarbeit mit BDA"
> > fรผhrten. Zur Teilnahme an BDA-Seminaren werde niemand
> > gezwungen. Konkrete Beschwerden รผber BDA lรคgen dem
> > Vorstand nicht vor. "Wir werden jedoch allen begrรผndeten
> > Verdachtsmomenten umgehend nachgehen", heiรt es
> > abschlieรend. "FACTS" schrieb gestern, der chilenische
> > BDA-Chef Fernando Flores "unterhรคlt Kontakte zu
> > sektenรคhnlichen Organisationen und stรผtzt sich bei seiner
> > Arbeit als Consultant auf obskure Methoden, die weitgehend
> > von der Psychosekte Scientology abgekupfert sind".
> > Leitende Angestellte hรคtten sich "vor versammelter Runde
> > von Flores' Vertreter beleidigen, erniedrigen und
> > demรผtigen lassen" mรผssen. tรถ
> >
> > http://www.facts.ch/stories/9839_wir_abb.htm
> >
> > Drohende Unterwanderung
> >
> > Fernando Flores, der Mitbegrรผnder der sektenรคhnlichen
> > Organisation Landmark, berรคt den Elektronikkonzern ABB.
> > Ein Betriebsrat wehrt sich.
> >
> > Facts
> > 39/98
> >
> > Von Peter Reichelt und Michael Solomicky
> >
> > Der Vertrag wurde von der obersten Stelle in Zรผrich abgesegnet. Armin
> > Meyer, Mitglied der ABB-Konzernleitung, gewรคhrte dem externen
> > Unternehmensberater Fernando Flores sogar eine Audienz. Heute erinnert
> > sich Meyer nur ungern an das Treffen vom vergangenen Jahr. ยซDas Meeting
> > hat nur eine Viertelstunde gedauertยป, lรคsst Meyer รผber seinen Sprecher
> > John Fox ausrichten, ยซund geredet haben wir auch nicht viel
> > miteinander.ยป
> > Am liebsten wรผrde die Chefetage des Elektrokonzerns mit Sitz in der
> > Schweiz Fernando Flores gar nicht kennen. Der 56-jรคhrige
> > Unternehmensberater aus Chile unterhรคlt Kontakte zu sektenรคhnlichen
> > Organisationen und stรผtzt sich bei seiner Arbeit als Consultant auf
> > obskure Methoden, die weitgehend von der Psychosekte Scientology
> > abgekupfert sind. Dennoch geniesst der dubiose Berater das volle
> > Vertrauen der ABB-Unternehmensleitung. Er hat sogar Zugang zu
> > Projekt-Controlling-Sitzungen und damit zu sensiblen Daten,
> > vertraulichen Informationen und geheimen Strategien des Konzerns.
> > Auch politisch รผbt Flores grossen Einfluss aus. Der ehemalige Minister
> > der chilenischen Allende-Regierung und prominente Berater der
> > Sozialistischen Internationalen zรคhlt sozialdemokratische
> > Spitzenpolitiker aus halb Europa zu seinem engen Freundeskreis. Als
> > seine Vorliebe fรผr sektennahe Organisationen und Methoden aufzufliegen
> > drohte, konnte er sich auf seine einflussreichen Genossen verlassen.
> > Allen voran der Parteivorsitzende der deutschen Sozialdemokraten, Oscar
> > Lafontaine, liess seinen Einfluss spielen, um die Flores-Affรคre zu
> > vertuschen. Lafontaine scheute sich nicht, Druck auf einen
> > Parteigenossen ausรผben zu lassen. Zum Schweigen gebracht werden sollte
> > Udo Belz, als Mitglied der deutschen Gewerkschaft IG-Metall in den
> > Betriebs- und Aufsichtsrat der ABB-Werke in Mannheim gewรคhlt. Belz, von
> > Haus aus Elektroschlosser, kam Flores nur zufรคllig auf die Schliche.
> > Kaum wurde dessen Beraterfirma Business Design Associates BDA im
> > September 1997 fรผr 600 000 Franken pro Monat von den
> > ABB-Verantwortlichen aus den Vereinigten Staaten eingeflogen, hรคuften
> > sich auf Belzโ Schreibtisch die Beschwerden verzweifelter ABB-Manager.
> > Statt im chronisch kriselnden Bereich der Dampfkraftwerke in Deutschland
> > und der Schweiz die hohe Fehlerquote abzubauen, die Zuverlรคssigkeit und
> > Arbeitsmoral zu steigern, um in diesem Sektor den Turnaround zu
> > schaffen, wurden Kursteilnehmer an betriebsinternen Seminaren regelrecht
> > vorgefรผhrt. Ein Betriebsleiter erzรคhlt, wie sich leitende Angestellte
> > vor versammelter Runde von BDA-Kursleiter Chris Davis โ dem
> > Stellvertreter von Fernando Flores โ verbal beleidigen, erniedrigen und
> > demรผtigen lassen mussten.
> > Schilderungen verschiedener Teilnehmer zufolge verlor Davis an einem
> > mehrtรคgigen Seminar fรผr ABB-Gruppenleiter die Contenance. Zuerst befahl
> > er den Anwesenden zu sagen, sie seien blind.
> > Als sich ein Gruppenleiter weigerte, die leere Formel aufzusagen,
> > beschied ihm Davis wรถrtlich: ยซYou are full of shit.ยป Daran kann sich
> > Davis nicht erinnern. ยซDas istยป, wittert der BDA-Vize, ยซeine
> > Pressekampagne.ยป Der rรผde Umgangston mit den ABB-Angestellten gehรถrt zum
> > Programm der BDA und nennt sich Negative Assessments oder Negative
> > Steuerung. Abgeschaut hat Flores die dubiose Methode von Werner Erhard,
> > einem ehemaligen Scientologen und Grรผnder der sektenรคhnlichen
> > Organisation Landmark, die ihre umstrittenen Praktiken teilweise von der
> > Psychosekte Scientology รผbernommen hat. Erhard und Flores lernten sich
> > in den siebziger Jahren in San Francisco kennen und verstanden sich auf
> > Anhieb. Als Erhard 1981 mit den US-amerikanischen Steuerbehรถrden รผbers
> > Kreuz geriet, half ihm Flores aus der Klemme. Am 15. September 1981
> > รผberwies er รผber ein Konto seiner St. John Foundation 14 Millionen
> > Dollar auf ein Konto des Sektengurus Erhard.
> > Fรผr die Anstellung von BDA will bei der ABB heute niemand mehr so recht
> > die Verantwortung รผbernehmen. ยซDie Konzernleitung hat die Anstellung der
> > BDA bloss genehmigtยป, lรคsst Konzernleitungsmitglied Armin Meyer
> > ausrichten, ยซdie Verantwortung liegt beim Werk in Mannheimยป. Dort wird
> > der Ball nach Zรผrich zurรผckgespielt. ยซWir haben die BDA ausgesuchtยป,
> > sagt Werkchef Hubert Lienhard, ยซdas grรผne Licht hat die Konzernleitung
> > gegeben.ยป Ebenso unklar bleibt, ob die BDA vor der Anstellung seriรถs
> > รผberprรผft wurde. Denn bereits 1994 sorgte die umstrittene Beratungsfirma
> > in Kanada fรผr einen handfesten Skandal. Im Dezember sendete die
> > Fernsehstation Canadian Broadcasting Corporation einen Beitrag รผber die
> > BDA-Seminare an der TransAlta Utilities Corporation, einer der grรถssten
> > Elektrizitรคtsgesellschaften des Landes. Ein Video zeigte einen
> > Kursteilnehmer, den zwei BDA-Trainer vor allen Anwesenden an den Rand
> > des psychischen Zusammenbruchs brachten. Die Sendung hatte ein
> > politisches Nachspiel. Der TransAlta-Prรคsident und seine Personalchefin
> > wurden gefeuert, der Vertrag mit der BDA nicht mehr verlรคngert. Trotz
> > solcher Vorfรคlle stehen die ABB-Verantwortlichen bis heute hinter der
> > BDA. ยซMir liegen keine Vorwรผrfe gegen die BDA vorยป, wimmelt Lienhard ab.
> > Und der Konzernleitung in Zรผrich ยซsind keine Unregelmรคssigkeiten
> > bekanntยป.
> > Die politische Rรผckendeckung fรผr Flores kommt ebenfalls aus der
> > Teppichetage. Das musste der ABB-Aufsichtsrat Udo Belz erfahren. Der
> > Gewerkschafter beschuldigte Flores wรคhrend der Betriebsversammlung vom
> > 12. Januar 1998 in Mannheim, Scientology-Methoden anzuwenden โ und traf
> > ins Schwarze. Der BDA-Chef bekam kalte Fรผsse und bat den ehemaligen
> > spanischen Ministerprรคsidenten Felipe Gonzรกlez, seinen Freund von der
> > Sozialistischen Internationalen, um Hilfe. Der wandte sich umgehend an
> > das Bรผro der Friedrich Ebert Stiftung in Madrid, die Parteistiftung der
> > deutschen Sozialdemokraten.
> > Jetzt liefen die Drรคhte heiss. Am 14. Januar sandte der Geschรคftsfรผhrer
> > der Friedrich Ebert Stiftung in Madrid, Dieter Koniecki, ein Schreiben
> > an den Deutschen SPD-Vorsitzenden Oskar Lafontaine. ยซLieber Oskarยป,
> > schrieb Koniecki, ยซheute ruft mich ziemlich aufgeregt Felipe Gonzรกlez
> > an, um รผber mich deine Mithilfe zu erbitten bei der Lรถsung eines
> > politisch รคusserst unangenehmen Konflikts.ยป Weder Gonzรกlez noch Koniecki
> > taxieren es als heikel, dass ihr Parteifreund Flores sektenhafte
> > Methoden anwendet โ sondern dass es auffliegen kรถnnte. Deshalb bat
> > Gonzรกlez seinen deutschen Genossen Lafontaine ยซsehr herzlich, dass man
> > versuchen sollte, an Udo Belz heranzutreten, um ihn von voreiligen
> > Schritten abzuhaltenยป.
> > Denn bei Fernando Flores handelt es sich um einen sozialistischen
> > Hoffnungstrรคger. In Chile fungiert er als Berater von
> > Prรคsidentschaftskandidat Ricardo Lagos. Und in der Sozialistischen
> > Internationalen gilt er als einflussreicher Vordenker, der die
> > Vereinigung geistig-schรถpferisch ins nรคchste Jahrtausend fรผhren soll.
> > Wird er in Misskredit gebracht, schรคdigt das den Ruf vieler
> > Spitzenpolitiker, die gerne mit dem Vorzeigechilenen posiert haben.
> > Darum galt es, ABB-Betriebsrat Belz zu stoppen.
> > Gesagt, getan. Nur wenige Tage nach dem Brief an Lafontaine rief bei
> > Belz der SPD-Bundestagsabgeordnete und IG-Metall-Vertreter Jรถrg Tauss an
> > und setzte ihn unter Druck. ยซTauss hat mir erzรคhltยป, erinnert sich Belz,
> > ยซdass Lafontaine ihn persรถnlich gebeten hรคtte, sich um mich zu kรผmmern.ยป
> > Doch das machte Belz ยซerst recht stinkesauer.ยป
> > Am 18. Mรคrz traf Belz SPD-Parteichef Lafontaine im Amtssitz in
> > Saarbrรผcken und fragte ihn, warum er Tauss auf ihn angesetzt habe. Doch
> > Lafontaine meinte trocken, fรผr ihn sei die Sache erledigt. Umso
> > konsternierter reagierte jetzt Lafontaines Bรผro in Bonn auf Fragen von
> > FACTS zur Affรคre Flores und der Rolle des SPD-Parteivorsitzenden.
> > Sprecher Joachim Schwarzer versuchte tapfer, Kurs zu halten. ยซHerr
> > Lafontaine hat nie ein Schreiben in dieser Angelegenheit erhaltenยป,
> > dementiert Schwarzer, ยซauch weiss er nichts von einem Herrn Flores und
> > Vorfรคllen bei der ABB. Das mรผsste ich wissen.ยป Tut er aber nicht. Wie
> > die Briefe vom 14. Januar von Felipe Gonzรกlez und der Friedrich Ebert
> > Stiftung an ยซQuerido Oscarยป belegen.
> >
> > Scientologisches Gedankengut
> >
> > Sektenhaft
> > Die Business Design Associates BDA von Fernando Flores stรผtzt sich in
> > ihren Managerkursen und -seminaren vorwiegend auf die Methoden des
> > Unternehmens Landmark. Fรผr die Schweizer Sekteninformationsstelle ein
> > klarer Fall. ยซLandmark weist sektenhafte Zรผge aufยป, warnen die Experten
> > und raten dringend von Kursbesuchen ab. ยซWir zweifeln an der
> > Professionalitรคt und Seriositรคt des Kursangebotesยป, lautet das Urteil.
> > Den umstrittenen Ruf hat Landmark Werner Erhard zu verdanken. Der
> > ehemalige Autoverkรคufer aus den Vereinigten Staaten war in den sechziger
> > Jahren ein begeistertes Mitglied von Scientology. 1970 kehrte Erhard der
> > Psychosekte den Rรผcken und grรผndete die eigene Beraterfirma, die Erhard
> > Seminar Training. Dabei liess er die Ideen von Scientology-Guru L. Ron
> > Hubbard einfliessen. ยซErhard รผbernahm gewisse Aspekte der Lehreยป,
> > bestรคtigt Jรผrg Stettler, Sprecher von Scientology Schweiz.
> >
> > Millionen Kunden
> > 1985 grรผndete Erhard โ unter der Mithilfe von Fernando Flores โ das
> > Landmark Forum. รber eine Million Kunden durchliefen in der Folge die
> > sektenhaften Seminare. Erhards Vermรถgen belรคuft sich schรคtzungsweise auf
> > 600 Millionen Franken. Wie viel davon an Fernando Flores floss, ist
> > nicht bekannt.
> >
> > Untergetaucht
> > 1991 tauchte Erhard unter. Zuvor verkaufte er Landmark an seine
> > Mitarbeiter. Der heutige Unternehmens-Chef heisst Harry Rosenberg โ ein
> > Bruder von Werner Erhard.
> >
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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dhchase
>
>dear afl er,
>who has proofs of a business relation between flores and erhard in any way?
>urgent. alex from germany
>3.october 98
>
>
>In article <6uucn8$k5a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> rpf...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Who knows anything about the relation between the former
>> scientology member WERNER ERHARD and est founder and his former partner
>> FERNANDO FLORES from chile? Flores is now using some of the Erhard
EST/FORUM
>> and also SCIENTOLOGY tech during his "consulting seminars" in Germany. His
>> company name is BDA ( business design associates ). Flores has another
>> company : Action Technologies, Inc., both from Alameda near San francisco.
>> enclosed an article from the Swiss News magazine FACTS, the SPIEGEL of
>> switzerland, about a current big scandal in Germany where Flores is
involved
>> because of using the Forum/ Scientology tech in seminars with the company
ABB,
>> written by peter reichelt ( Helnwein book )and michael solomicky company
ABB.
>> Sorry, only in German.
Hi Alex,
Interesting post.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the original post in German...
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=394822253
And here's the quick and dirty, babelfish.altavista.com translation...
I do apologize, it's very rough, but I do enjoy how the stuff comes out,
somehow the meaning is quite clear, if slightly garbled and awkward.
Remember, the computer program translates "sektenรคhnlichen" which means..
well... "cult-like" ... into 'sparkling-wine" which sounds so much more
refreshing...
I guess I'll need to dust off my German/English Dictionary,
(should I be able to find it) and clean this translation up...
Unless someone beats me to it.. hint, hint.
Enjoy!
Linda
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presseschau too: Land Mark / infiltration of ABB
Author:Tilman hausherr
Email:til...@berlin.snafu.de
DATE:1998/09/25
Forum:de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology
Message ID: < 3694c6ef...@news.snafu.de >
Content transfer
Encoding:8-bit
Content type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
MIME version: 1.0
Organization: United Umbilicals, Inc.
ABB of power stations resists
Mannheimer morning
25,9,1998
Mannheim.
The Mannheimer ABB of power stations AG resisted the
reproach in Swiss magazine " FACTS ", it with an advisor company
co-operated yesterday, which applies sparkling wine-similar methods.
In information to its personnel ABB stresses " Business Design
Associates " (BDA) to have checked; no notes would have resulted " on
seriosity or relations lacking with sparkling wine-similar
organizations ". Rather the project " Steam for Future " has itself,
whose execution accompanies BDA, when proved success. That
decreases/goes back to the coworkers, who led the project " in
continuous co-operation with BDA ". To the participation in Federal
Employers Association seminars nobody one force. Concrete complaints
over BDA would not be present the executive committee. " we will
immediately follow however to all justified suspicious factors ", are
called it finally. " FACTS " wrote yesterday, the Chilean Federal
Employers Association boss Fernando Flores " maintains contacts to
sparkling wine-similar organizations and supports themselves with its
work as Consultant on obskure methods, which are abgekupfert of the
psychosect Scientology sect to a large extent ". Leading employees
would have themselves " before met round of Flores ' representative to
insult, degrade and humiliate let " have toe
http://www.facts.ch/stories/9839_wir_abb.htm
threatening infiltration
Fernando Flores, the joint founder of the sparkling
wine-similar organization land Mark, advise the electronics company
ABB. A work council resists.
Facts
39/98
By Peter Reichelt and Michael Solomicky
The contract was abgesegnet by the highest place in
Zurich. Armin Meyer, member of the ABB Konzernleitung, even granted
an audience to the external management consultant Fernando Flores.
Today Meyer remembers only reluctantly the meeting from the passed
year. " the meeting took, lets only one quarter of an hour " Meyer
about his speaker John Fox align, " and did not talk we also much
together. "
Dearest the executive floor of the electrical company
with seat in Switzerland Fernando Flores would not know at all. The
56-jaehrige management consultant from Chile maintains contacts to
sparkling wine-similar organizations and relies with its work as
Consultant on obskure methods, which are abgekupfert of the psychosect
Scientology sect to a large extent. The dubious advisor nevertheless
enjoys the full confidence of the A-B multicolored taking line. It
has even acces to project Controlling sessions and thus to sensitive
data, confidential information and secret strategies of the company.
Also politically Flores exerts large influence. The former Minister
of Chilean all the all this and prominent advisors of the socialist
international ones rank social-democratic leading politician out half
Europe among its close friend set. When its preference for sparkling
wine near organizations and methods threatened to fly up, it could
rely on its influential comrades. OSCAR Lafontaine, let everything in
front the chairman of the party of the German Social Democrats, its
influence play, in order to hush up the Flores affair. Lafontaine did
not shrink from itself to let printing exercise on a party comrade.
To the silence to be brought Udo Belz should, as a member of the
German trade union IG-Metall in operation and supervisory board of the
ABB factories in Mannheim selected. Belz, as standard equipment
electrical fitters, came Flores only coincidentally on the schliche.
Its advisor company Business Design Associates BDA was hardly flown in
September 1997 for 600,000 Franconias per month by the ABB responsible
persons from the United States, accumulated themselves up on Belz '
desk the complaints of desperate ABB managers. Instead of diminishing
within the chronically kriselnden area of the steam power plants in
Germany and Switzerland the high error rate to increase the
reliability and work moral in order to create in this sector the
Turnaround, class participants at in-house seminars were demonstrated
rule quite. Plant manager told, how leading employees before met
round of Federal Employers Association course conductor Chris Davis -
which deputies of Fernando Flores - verbal insults, to degrade
themselves and humiliate let had. According to different user Davis
at a seminar of several days for ABB group leader the Contenance lost
descriptions. First he instructed to say the present ones, they were
blind. When itself a group leader refused up-assuring the empty
formula it Davis granted literally: " You of AR full OF shit. "
Davis cannot remember. " that is ", wittert the Federal Employers
Association vice, " a press campaign. " Ruede conversational language
with the A-B-fear for-placed belonged to the program of the BDA and
calls itself negatives Assessments or negatives control. Cribbed from
Flores the dubious method of Werner Erhard, a former Scientologen and
founder of the sparkling wine-similar organization land Mark, which
took over its disputed practices partly from the psychosect
Scientology sect. Erhard and Flores became acquainted with themselves
in the seventies in San Francisco and understood themselves at first
attempt. When Erhard turned out 1981 with the US-American revenue
offices over the cross, Flores from the clamp helped it. On 15
September 1981 it transferred over an account of his St. John
Foundation 14 million dollar to an account of the Sektengurus Erhard.
For the employment of BDA today nobody wants to take more so quite
the responsibility with the ABB. " the company line approved, lets
the employment of the BDA only " company line member Armin Meyer
align, " the responsibility is situated with the factory in Mannheim
". There the ball is rewound to Zurich. " we selected, say the BDA "
factory boss Hubert Lienhard, " the green light the company line gave.
" It remains just as unclear whether the BDA before the employment
was respectablly checked. Because already 1994 provided the disputed
consulting firm in Canada for a strong scandal. In December the
fernsehstation Canadian Broadcasting corporation would transmit a
contribution over the Federal Employers Association seminars at the
AltaAlta Alta utilities corporation, of one of the largest electricity
companies of the country. A video showed a class participant, whom
two Federal Employers Association coaches before all present ones
brought to the edge of the psychological collapse. The transmission
had a political sequel. The Alta presidentpresident Alta president
and its personnel boss were fired, the contract with the BDA was not
no more extended. Despite such incidents the ABB responsible persons
until today are behind the BDA. " no reproaches are appropriate for
me against the BDA forwards ", wimmelt Lienhard off. And the company
line in Zurich " are no irregularities admits ". The political cover
for Flores comes likewise from the carpet days. That had to
experience the ABB supervisory board Udo Belz. The trade unionist
accused Flores of during the workshop meeting from 12 January 1998 in
Mannheim to apply Scientology sect methods - and met in the black.
The Federal Employers Association boss got cold feet and asked the
former Spanish Prime Minister Felipe Gonzรกlez, its friend of the
socialist international one, around assistance. That turned
immediately to the office of the Friedrich Ebert donation in Madrid,
the party donation of the German Social Democrats. Now the wires ran
hot. On 14 January the managing director of the Friedrich Ebert
donation transmitted a writing at the German SPD chairman Oskar
Lafontaine in Madrid, Dieter Koniecki. " dear Oskar ", wrote
Koniecki, " today calls me rather excited to Felipe Gonzรกlez, over
over me your assistance to request with the solution of a politically
extremely unpleasant conflict. " Neither Gonzรกlez nor Koniecki rate
it as delicate that its party friend Flores applies sparkling wineful
methods - but that it could fly up. Therefore Gonzรกlez asked to hold
its German comrade Lafontaine very cordially " that one should try to
come closer at Udo Belz around it from hasty steps ". Because
concerns with Fernando Flores it a socialist hope carrier. In Chile
it functions as an advisor of presidency candidate Ricardo Lagos. And
in the socialist international one it is considered as influential
Vordenker, which is to lead the union mental-creative in the next
millenium. If it is brought in discredit, that damages the call many
leading politician, which posiert gladly with the Vorzeigechilenen.
It applied to stop ABB work council Belz. Said, done. Only
pressurized IG-Metall representative Joerg Tauss called few days after
the letter at Lafontaine and him with Belz the SPD representative to
the Bundestag and. " Tauss told me ", remembers Belz, " that
Lafontaine it would personally have asked to worry about me. " But
Belz made only quite stink sour ". " On 18 March Belz SPD party chief
Lafontaine in the seat met in Saarbruecken and asked it, why he set
Tauss on him. But Lafontaine meant drying, for him the thing was
completed. The more konsternierter now Lafontaines office in Bonn
reacted to questions of FACTS for the affair Flores and the role of
the SPD chairman of the party. Speaker Joachim of black ones tried
courageously to hold course. " Mr. Lafontaine received, disclaims
never a writing in this affair " to black ones, " also white he
nothing from a Mr. Flores and Vorfaellen with the ABB. I would have
to know that. " He does not do however. As the letters from 14
January von Felipe Gonzรกlez and the Friedrich Ebert donation at "
Querido OSCAR " occupy.
Scientologi ideas
sparkling wine detention
the Business Design Associates BDA von Fernando Flores are based in
its manager courses and - seminars predominantly upon the methods of
the enterprise land Mark. For Swiss sparkling wine information centre
a clear case. " land Mark indicates sparkling wineful courses ",
warns the experts and advises against urgently course attendance. "
we doubt the judgement the professionalism and seriosity of the course
supply ", read. Land Mark Werner Erhard has to owe the disputed call.
The former autosalesman from the United States was in the sixties an
inspired member of Scientology sect. 1970 turned Erhard of the
psychosect the back and created the own advisor company, the Erhard
seminar training. It let the ideas of Scientology sect Guru L Ron
Hubbard flow. " Erhard took over certain aspects of the teachings ",
acknowledges Juerg Stettler, speaker of Scientology sect Switzerland.
1985 Erhard - under the assistance of Fernando Flores - created
millions customers land Marks the forum. Over one million customers
passed through the sparkling wineful seminars in the consequence.
Erhard's fortune amounts roughly to 600 million Franconia. As flowed
much of it at Fernando Flores, is not well-known. Submerged 1991
submerged Erhard. Before it sold land Marks at its coworkers. The
today's enterprise boss is called Harry rose mountain - a brother of
Werner Erhard. *** TRANSLATION ENDS HERE ***
dhchase
[snip]
and this post...A Followup Article...
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=397136453
Well... it is babelfishes's rendition of it...
I was especially tickled at the comment of "imperfect German"
in the rebuttal.
Kindest Regards,
Linda
RH: Presseschau too: Land Mark / infiltration of ABB
Author: Tilman hausherr
Email: til...@berlin.snafu.de
DATE: 1998/10/02
Forum: de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology
Message ID:< 36รง2487.6...@news.snafu.de >
Content transfer
Encoding:8-bit
Content type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
MIME version:1.0
Organization:United Umbilicals, Inc.
References:<3694c6ef...@news.snafu.de>
<36185f76...@news.snafu.de>
Psychothriller " with ABB
controversy over " sparkling wine-similar " methods always mysterioeser
Mannheimer morning
2,10,1998
By our editorship member Gert Goebel
Mannheim.
The controversy whether the American consulting firm Business Design
Associates (BDA) applies sparkling wine-similar " practices with ABB
Mitarbeiterseminaren " or not, becomes ever more complicated and more
mysterioeser. As reports, the work council of the ABB of power
stations AG in Mannheim requested management to terminate the advisor
contract with BDA because of doubtful Psychomethoden. Consulting
firm, whose founder and owner, who Chilene Dr. Fernando Flores, in
which passed week in the Swiss magazine " Facts " had been violently
attacked, have themselves now the reproaches resisted. " Facts " had
maintained, Flores maintenance close connections to Werner Erhard, an
earlier Scientologen and founder of the sparkling wine-similar
organization " land Mark ". In one of ABB explained the consulting
firm spread statement yesterday, Flores was not a joint founder of
land Marks. " it maintained direct or indirect contact at no time to
this organization ", is called it literally. Flores and its
enterprise would not have " preference for sparkling wine-like groups
". Also of " sparkling wine-like methods " the speech cannot be. It
is denied also that Flores transferred million dollar years ago 14 at
land Mark founder Erhard. After in the Federal Employers Association
statement first any contact for the land Mark organization of Erhard
abgestritten becomes, then surprisingly the following paragraph comes
in imperfect German: " Dr. Flores only relationship with Erhard was
as follows: Start of the eighties granted the EST Foundation, which
is the subsidiary of one of the Erhard companies, to Dr. Flores a
small total at a value of 5000 US Dollar as support for its doctor
work on the university of Californien. Erhard invested also into the
first company of Dr. Flores. This investment was two years terminated
after approximately, to which point in time the business relations was
terminated and their relationship aborted. " ABB did not want to
yesterday take on request to these Federal Employers Association
expressions position.
Larry Person
>dear afl er,
>who has proofs of a business relation between flores and erhard in any way?
>urgent. alex from germany
>3.october 98
I'm surprised Linda didn't point this out, since it's quoted on her site at
http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/heidig.htm. It's from an article in the NY
Times Book Review entitled "Heidegger for Fun and Profit," January 7, 1990,
by Anthony Gottlieb. Assuming the information in this essay is correct, it
asserts that Werner lent Fernando Flores the money to start his business.
>>
A slightly more sophisticated application of Heidegger can be found in the
extraordinary career of Fernando Flores, one of Mr. Dreyfus's ex-pupils, who
is surely one of very few people to become a millionaire because of
Heidegger. Mr. Flores was Chile's f inance minister in the Allende
Government and was imprisoned when Allende fell. Amnesty International got
him out of jail and brought him to Berkeley, where he wrote a doctoral
dissertation on the unlikely subject of Heidegger and office work, under the
s upervision of Professor Dreyfus andProf. John Searle. He subsequently
started a software company, Action Technologies, that sells ''Heideggerian''
communications software, and an educational organization, Logonet, which
gives seminars to managers, also, according to Mr. Flores, influenced by
Heidegger, among others. In 1986, Mr. Flores published what has become a
cult book, ''Understanding Computers and Cognition,'' together with Terry
Winograd, a professor of computer science at Stanford University, who was
one of the pioneers of artificial intelligence. The book is not too hard but
rather too simple to summarize. As with the Heideggerian nurses' opposition
to the abuse of technology, it is difficult to believe that anybody
seriously espouses the views it attacks - although the book does offer a few
sensible correctives to the oversimplifications of early artificial
intelligence theorists. Through chapter after chapter, it finds dozens of
different ways to restate the obvious: that computers should help people,
not hinder them; that if you want a computer system to aid a human project,
work out exactly what the human project is; that when you use language, you
are doing something.
These crashing platitudes are disguised for what they are by Heideggerian
jargon; translate them back into English and they evaporate. Logonet's
training seminars in ''communication for action'' are said to ''reveal for
people how their language acts participate in a network of human
commitments.'' The claim to reveal the ''fundamental ontology of linguistic
acts'' turns out to be simply a matter of noticing that language contains
questions, commands, promises and so forth. It is depressing to think th at
American managers need to be told any of this.
But the man who has made the most out of the Heidegger business - and who
originally lent Mr. Flores the money to start up on his own - is Werner
Erhard, the man behind the now defunct est self-improvement cult. Mr.
Erhard, a former car and encyclopedia salesman, changed his name from the
more prosaic Jack Rosenberg and moved west to escape his first wife and
children. In California he became a millionaire, selling people the idea
that by freeing themselves from the constraints of conventional concepts
they could embrace new possibilities and transform their lives. His own
story is certainly one example of that.
<<
Larry Person
This source might be somewhat biased. It is a newsletter for the
"Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group."
It's also an interesting glimpse at a time not so long ago when the email
"market" was very, very different.
>>
DaVinci Ups Mail Ante By Buying Coordinator
DaVinci Systems Corp. announced it has purchased Action Technologies Inc.'s
Coordinator.
The sale will give DaVinci customers the choice of the firm's own low-end
eMAIL software or Coordinator, a more sophisticated messaging package with
work-flow automation features.
Because the DaVinci and Action programs are the No. 1 and No. 2 selling
programs based on the Message Handling Service (MHS) mail standard--and
together account for more than 600,000 users--DaVinci becomes a strong
E-mail rival to Lotus Development Corp. and Microsoft Corp. in terms of
sheer numbers of users. The purchase of Coordinator also presents DaVinci,
known for its eMAIL program's ease of use, with the opportunity to modify
Action's sophisticated program for broader appeal.
Coordinator's complex nature kept it from making a big splash in the
mainstream corporate market.
Action, an Alameda, CA company with 35 employees, last year generated $6.5
million in revenue. PC Week, November 4, 1991, Steve Higgins
[Editors' Note: Action Technologies, Inc. is owned by a group including
Werner Erhard of est and The Forum, and Fernando Flores of Logonet, who
developed the Coordinator software.]
<<
Larry Person
between Werner Erhard and Fernando Flores?
What would it prove?
Do you think it would in any way implicate anyone who engaged the services
of Flores or his company?
Why do you need this information so urgently?
Isn't Germany one of the countries that persecutes Scientologists? It
sounds like you're trying to leverage German distaste for Scientology in
some bizarre way in order to taint Werner and Flores. Any thoughts about
that?
Larry Person
Design Associates, Logonet and Hermenet? (Anyone can go to the Dun and
Bradstreet web site and order D&B reports for $20 each.)
None of them mention Werner, although the Action Technologies report lists
Business Design Associates as an "affiliate" and the Business Design
Associates report lists Logonet as an "affiliate." Chauncey Bell, to whom
you referred in one of your posts, is a Senior Vice President of Business
Design Associates. I have no idea who he is or why you consider him to be
significant.
The Logonet and Hermenet reports are non-functional; the error reported is
"This report requires a revision."
(Oddly enough, the report for my own small company reports the same error.
It probably doesn't mean anything.)
Does anybody else know of any good internet sources for information about
companies? Does the California Secretary of State make this information
available online?
dhchase
La...@LarryPerson.com says...
>>who has proofs of a business relation between flores and erhard in any way?
>>urgent. alex from germany
>>3.october 98
>
>
>http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/heidig.htm. It's from an article in the NY
>Times Book Review entitled "Heidegger for Fun and Profit," January 7, 1990,
>by Anthony Gottlieb. Assuming the information in this essay is correct, it
>asserts that Werner lent Fernando Flores the money to start his business.
Hi Larry,
Here's three interesting urls and one has a picture.
Enjoy,
Linda
http://www.sjmercury.com/archives/acm97/stories/flores0304.htm
And BDA's Home site.
http://www.bdaus.com/html/pg2.fernando.html
and this one with two articles in it
http://www.learning-org.com/97.06/0023.html
pat...@kdi.com
i find it very interesting that u would interpret in such a manner. any
thoughts about that.
--
Patrick Darcy
Love, just think about it
aa
You called it right. For what I can read, from the articles posted, and the
timing of the question, your call is right.
Sounds like someone is trying to "prove" a connection between Flores and
Erhard to who knows what end.
Alex from Germany is the reporter or tied to the reporter who is writing the
articles.
(Any 15 year old subscriber to 2600 could figure it out by bouncing back the
ip's. Jeez, these german guys don't get the internet either.)
I don't know about Scientology or the Forum, and I don't want to know.
But I do know the Germans--they are prosecuting scientologists and any one
who might be *connected* in their own inimitable way.
The article tries to make a Flores an Erhardard following, Scientologist,
IMF lender, Menshevik lover, socialist , Rosicrucian, whatever member of
some global conspiracy. I know only his book, "Understanding Computers and
Cognition" and that was used in my compsci classes. Good book, introduced me
to Heidegger, but ... hardly as controversial as Trainspotting.
The article reads like a character assasination. It pisses me off because
my family were prosecuted by fascists and the approach in this article and
the fascists then.... is the same.
From what I can tell by the timing, by making Flores a whatever plus a
socialist, friend of a leading German socialist, they were hoping to
tarnish the socialists candidates in germany and help Kohl win the election.
He lost anyway.
History repeats itself.
aa
Larry Person wrote in message ...
Larry Person
say?
pat...@kdi.com wrote in message <6v6se5$gjm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <gPvR1.2464$Dh6.7...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>,
> "Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
>> So, Alex from Germany, what if there *were* a documented business
connection
>> between Werner Erhard and Fernando Flores?
>>
>> What would it prove?
>>
>> Do you think it would in any way implicate anyone who engaged the
services
>> of Flores or his company?
>>
>> Why do you need this information so urgently?
>>
>> Isn't Germany one of the countries that persecutes Scientologists?
>
>
>
> It
>> sounds like you're trying to leverage German distaste for Scientology in
>> some bizarre way in order to taint Werner and Flores. Any thoughts about
>> that?
>>
>>
pat...@kdi.com
"Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
> Patrick, why do you find it interesting? Is there something you want to
> say?
well there IS a connection between werner and flores, there IS a
connection between scientology and werner, there IS a connection
between werner and the founders of lifespring. all of these things
and others are true. but i have noticed in this newsgroup that all
of these connections have supposedly (no meaning), as does most other
things that THEY dont want u to think about. i find it interesting
that most of the program people that i have spoken to, believe it was
very wrong for Clinton to have had an affair with women, but on the
other hand, werner abandoning his family has no meaning. does that
seem like rational thinking to u, or could this be selective non thinking.
this is just an observation on my part , what do u think.
--
Patrick Darcy
Love, just think about it
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Larry Person
_Understanding Computers and Cognition : A New Foundation for Design_ and
_Disclosing New Worlds : Entrepreneurship, Democratic Action, and the
Cultivation of Solidarity_ from Amazon. I intend to read them on my
vacation in a couple of weeks.
Larry Person
pat...@kdi.com wrote in message <6v82vj$7u8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <eSJR1.3724$Dh6.7...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>,
> "Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
>> Patrick, why do you find it interesting? Is there something you want to
>> say?
>
>
> well there IS a connection between werner and flores, there IS a
>connection between scientology and werner, there IS a connection
>between werner and the founders of lifespring.
Yeah? So?
Patrick, as long as my participation enables me to continually improve the
quality of my relationships, to be present to love, and to be effective in
everything I do, I don't care about any of the connections you mention.
Also, for the record, I couldn't care less about Clinton's personal life.
He's doing a good job as president.
Mark Lewis
Patrick, as long as my participation enables me to continually improve the
> quality of my relationships, to be present to love, and to be effective in
> everything I do, I don't care about any of the connections you mention.
Well put. Of course, heidegger said pretty much the same as he supported the
Nazi's, but HEY! Leave the past in the past!
Oops, I hadn't intended to write that, but I suppose it's too late...
> Also, for the record, I couldn't care less about Clinton's personal life.
> He's doing a good job as president.
I don't care about his personal life either. However, we obviously have a
different definitions of the word "good" in realtionship to a president's job.
mark
Larry Person
Mark Lewis wrote in message <36180124...@jps.net>...
>Larry Person wrote:
>
>Patrick, as long as my participation enables me to continually improve the
>
>> quality of my relationships, to be present to love, and to be effective
in
>> everything I do, I don't care about any of the connections you mention.
>
>Well put. Of course, heidegger said pretty much the same as he supported
the
>Nazi's, but HEY! Leave the past in the past!
That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
Your reasoning is similar to Alex from Germany's.
1. Heideigger supported the Nazis.
2. The Forum incorporates Heideigger's thinking.
3. Therefore the Forum is related to, or like, or sympathetic to, the Nazis.
Wrong!
That's not valid reasoning. In fact, that's not reasoning at all.
It is cheap propaganda, designed to mention something odious (the Nazis) and
link it to something to which it is not related (the Forum).
Pamela Fitzpatrick
<YlVR1.3917$Dh6.7...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>...
But isn't this the same type of "reasoning" that is used to dismiss those
that had "bad" experiences with the programs or graduates of these said
programs put out by Werner Erhard or Werner Erhard & Associates or even
Landmark Education Corporation?
Why is it okay to reason this way for the people that are critical of the
programs but not about the actual programs themselves?
Just curious.
-pam
Larry Person
Pamela Fitzpatrick wrote in message <01bdf006$e223a9e0$0e66490c@default>...
<snip>
Hey Pam.
>But isn't this the same type of "reasoning" that is used to dismiss those
>that had "bad" experiences with the programs or graduates of these said
>programs put out by Werner Erhard or Werner Erhard & Associates or even
>Landmark Education Corporation?
Not in my experience, no.
Can you elaborate?
Pamela Fitzpatrick
Yes, it's rather easy -- "I didn't have that experience, thus it couldn't
have happened to you".
The discrediting of the media that reports any negativity regarding the
programs. And only using reports that are positive and possibly
questionable to begin with (as is the methods of research for news articles
are claimed to be).
People that make comparisons to philosophy's or theology's that are brought
up in the programs are dismissed as not being significant (if not so, then
why was it used in the first place? Just use the theology's, you don't need
to place name them so that people get the "familiar" of it).
I am personally upset to find out more and more of the programs were an out
right sham. The more time I spend looking into the *stolen* and bastardized
versions of theology it is a crime IMO. Not one that can ever see a court
of law ... but it is a crime. From what I can tell, Werner Erhard and all
that follow him in the "leading" of the programs have taken completely out
of context philosophies and theology's that are fine on their own. The
program people go so far as to reference these particular aspects to
*validate* what they do ... but at the same time forget to mention the
other aspects like hypnosis, NLP, peer pressure tactics and the like that
as humans we naturally are suspicious or wary of. Not to mention the other
psychological aspects of how the programs are run/presented in a deliberate
way to achieve specific results for *most* (not all) of the people.
If you had not gone through therapy before, you would not have an
understanding that not all types of therapy work for every single person.
But to hear it from the program leaders -- if the Forum (or the subsequent
programs) do not "work" for you ... you as an individual were flawed. I
don't have to go very far to find examples of that dialogue *g*.
--
Pamela Fitzpatrick
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil
is that good men do nothing.
--Edmund Burke 1790
SPAMMERS BE WARNED: poster of this message
is a resident of King County Washington, USA
Larry Person
Pamela Fitzpatrick wrote in message <01bdf00e$ba22e7a0$0e66490c@default>...
<snip>
>> Can you elaborate?
>
>Yes, it's rather easy -- "I didn't have that experience, thus it couldn't
>have happened to you".
<snip again>
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Obviously, our mileage varies. While I don't think you addressed the same
thing I was talking about in my earlier post, I'm not going to debate your
points. I see this discussion going down a dark tunnel, rehashing the same
old arguments for the umteeth time, and I'm sorry that I led you in that
direction.
pat...@kdi.com
"Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Lewis wrote in message <36180124...@jps.net>...
> >Larry Person wrote:
> >
> >Patrick, as long as my participation enables me to continually improve the
> >
> >> quality of my relationships, to be present to love, and to be effective
> in
> >> everything I do, I don't care about any of the connections you mention.
> >
> >Well put. Of course, heidegger said pretty much the same as he supported
> the
> >Nazi's, but HEY! Leave the past in the past!
>
> That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
>
> Your reasoning is similar to Alex from Germany's.
>
> 1. Heideigger supported the Nazis.
> 2. The Forum incorporates Heideigger's thinking.
> 3. Therefore the Forum is related to, or like, or sympathetic to, the Nazis.
>
> Wrong!
>
> That's not valid reasoning. In fact, that's not reasoning at all.
>
> It is cheap propaganda, designed to mention something odious (the Nazis) and
> link it to something to which it is not related (the Forum).
>
>
yes the forum incorporates his thinking ( even the higher up program people
admit to this) and as far as im concerned brain washing people is what
hitler did to the German people before and during world war 11. it would be
rather nice if we COULD leave the past in the past. but unless we learn and
stay constantly aware of what is going on around us, in my opinion we could
very well replay it. isnt it amazing how hitler mesmerized his crouds of
people, follow me, this is the way of the future. and by the way u say the
nazis were odius, ok, got it, what is the forum .
--
Patrick Darcy
Love, just think about it
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
dhchase
La...@LarryPerson.com says...
>
>That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
>
>Your reasoning is similar to Alex from Germany's.
>
>1. Heideigger supported the Nazis.
>2. The Forum incorporates Heideigger's thinking.
>3. Therefore the Forum is related to, or like, or sympathetic to, the Nazis.
>
>Wrong!
>
>That's not valid reasoning. In fact, that's not reasoning at all.
>
>It is cheap propaganda, designed to mention something odious (the Nazis) and
>link it to something to which it is not related (the Forum).
Hi Larry,
Ordinarily I would agree with you, linking something odious, with something
unrelated is a propaganda technique.
And...
While I don't claim to be a serious scholar of history, sociology,
psychology, or philosophy, only a hobbyist, I do see similarities between
the "technology" that the Nazis used in their control of large groups of
people, and what some of the earlier LGAT's and other groups used in their
work, threading itself down to delicate versions of group dynamics in the
present time and other echos of strategies that permeates...
well we won't go there today.
Reading The Pit, by Gene Church, and then reading another of his works,
Mengele, 80629 I observed that Church wrote noticing the similarities
himself.
For your vacation reading, I highly recommend these two books read one after
the other.
I doubt we could have an intelligent discussion about it in this particular
place, but there is a discussion out there waiting to happen,
Heidegger wanted his philosophy to be used as the vehicle for the
transformation of German society, Yes?
He did a bit more than just "support the Nazis" Yes?
And while we're here, talking about propaganda techniques, how about
the deflection of this thread?
How did we get off Fernando Flores, his interesting influential connections
with Socialists, the recent German election, the climate in Germany
concerning Scientologist and Lawsuits that Landmark won or didn't win
concerning being lumped in with them in brochures that goverment
organizations are giving out. and how the media is covering Landmark in
Germany. Fernando a big Heidegger booster, and who was Heidegger? Let's
throw in the history of South America, and where did the Nazis all go when
they went into hiding? They didn't all get caught and killed and brought to
justice, now did they? Some of them went on to do other things. And it
wasn't peanut farming, now was it?
>That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
I don't think so. Those pens under the chairs, all lined up in perfect rows,
chilling to a student of Der Reich.
Arbeit Mach Frei.
Kindest Regards,
Linda
Larry Person
Touche, Linda. :-)
>Ordinarily I would agree with you, linking something odious, with something
>unrelated is a propaganda technique.
Good.
>I doubt we could have an intelligent discussion about it in this particular
>place, but there is a discussion out there waiting to happen,
Oy. That discussion would give me a headache. :-)
>And while we're here, talking about propaganda techniques, how about
>the deflection of this thread?
I didn't do that. I just went with it. (But mom, he started it!)
* * * * * * *
So on the one hand, we have Fernando Flores, alleged friend of powerful
socialists. On the other hand, we have Heideigger the Nazi and Nazi
war criminals in Argentina.
Ideologically, we're talking oil and water.
Unless you're suggesting the common thread is about power, not ideology.
--
hi...@acm.org
dhc...@inlink.com (dhchase) wrote:
> How did we get off Fernando Flores,
Oh, he just went off. In his lear-jet. Destination USA. He just didn't
show up at his scheduled workshop. Looks like he learned his lesson
about ~integrity~ and ~responsibility~.
As reported on http://www.facts.ch/stories/9840_sch_abb.htm
And well, FACTS is a magazine in switzerland, not the Sciento-hunting
germany, where an author was allowed to call Landmark a "psycho company"
and their courses "brainwashing".
> his interesting influential connections with Socialists,
German socialists can't remember to have done anything in this case.
Loss of memory seems to be an illness which is quite common for
politicans.
> the recent German election,
Well, Renate Rennebach is again a member of parliament and I don't
think it changed her view of Landmark that she has even more influence
now.
> the climate in Germany
> concerning Scientologist and Lawsuits that Landmark won or didn't win
> concerning being lumped in with them in brochures that goverment
> organizations are giving out. and how the media is covering Landmark in
> Germany.
They are down to sueing against single words in the brochure.
The internet version had to be changed. Stay tuned.
> Fernando a big Heidegger booster, and who was Heidegger? Let's
> throw in the history of South America, and where did the Nazis all go when
> they went into hiding? They didn't all get caught and killed and brought to
> justice, now did they? Some of them went on to do other things. And it
> wasn't peanut farming, now was it?
Anyone interested in looking for direct links between Werner and
the Nazis?
>
> >That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
>
> I don't think so. Those pens under the chairs, all lined up in perfect rows,
> chilling to a student of Der Reich.
>
> Arbeit Macht Frei.
Hm.
Arbeit = going in action
macht frei = gives freedom (and fulfillment)
...it fits better than I feared.
Markus
rpf...@hotmail.com
newsgroups, published in his new issue no. 40 today another story about the
political links between Oskar Lafontaine, SPD, the new strong leader in
Germany and Fernando Flores, his socialist close friend! Its starting now
getting a bigger scandal in Germany because the Newsmag "FOCUS" from Germany
also published today a first article about the scandal. Is there a new
"Watergate" coming? Was has the SPD to hide? Think about, Alex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is the old article again:
In article <6v55k7$6o9$1...@news1.inlink.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pat...@kdi.com
"Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Lewis wrote in message <36180124...@jps.net>...
> >Larry Person wrote:
> >
> >Patrick, as long as my participation enables me to continually improve the
> >
> >> quality of my relationships, to be present to love, and to be effective
> in
> >> everything I do, I don't care about any of the connections you mention.
> >
> >Well put. Of course, heidegger said pretty much the same as he supported
> the
> >Nazi's, but HEY! Leave the past in the past!
>
>
>
> 1. Heideigger supported the Nazis.
> 2. The Forum incorporates Heideigger's thinking.
> 3. Therefore the Forum is related to, or like, or sympathetic to, the Nazis.
>
> Wrong!
>
> That's not valid reasoning. In fact, that's not reasoning at all.
>
> It is cheap propaganda, designed to mention something odious (the Nazis) and
> link it to something to which it is not related (the Forum).
>
>
larry are u forgetting, "anything is possible"
--
Patrick Darcy
Love, just think about it
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pat...@kdi.com
dhc...@inlink.com (dhchase) wrote:
> In article <YlVR1.3917$Dh6.7...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>,
> La...@LarryPerson.com says...
>
> >
> >That is completely disanalogous. And gratutious.
> >
> >Your reasoning is similar to Alex from Germany's.
> >
> >1. Heideigger supported the Nazis.
> >2. The Forum incorporates Heideigger's thinking.
> >3. Therefore the Forum is related to, or like, or sympathetic to, the Nazis.
> >
> >Wrong!
> >
> >That's not valid reasoning. In fact, that's not reasoning at all.
> >
> >It is cheap propaganda, designed to mention something odious (the Nazis) and
> >link it to something to which it is not related (the Forum).
>
>
> Ordinarily I would agree with you, linking something odious, with something
> unrelated is a propaganda technique.
>
>
> While I don't claim to be a serious scholar of history, sociology,
> psychology, or philosophy, only a hobbyist, I do see similarities between
> the "technology" that the Nazis used in their control of large groups of
> people, and what some of the earlier LGAT's and other groups used in their
> work, threading itself down to delicate versions of group dynamics in the
> present time and other echos of strategies that permeates...
> well we won't go there today.
>
> Reading The Pit, by Gene Church, and then reading another of his works,
> Mengele, 80629 I observed that Church wrote noticing the similarities
> himself.
>
> For your vacation reading, I highly recommend these two books read one after
> the other.
>
> place, but there is a discussion out there waiting to happen,
>
> transformation of German society, Yes?
>
> He did a bit more than just "support the Nazis" Yes?
>
> the deflection of this thread?
>
> with Socialists, the recent German election, the climate in Germany
> concerning Scientologist and Lawsuits that Landmark won or didn't win
> concerning being lumped in with them in brochures that goverment
> organizations are giving out. and how the media is covering Landmark in
> throw in the history of South America, and where did the Nazis all go when
> they went into hiding? They didn't all get caught and killed and brought to
> justice, now did they? Some of them went on to do other things. And it
> wasn't peanut farming, now was it?
>
>
> chilling to a student of Der Reich.
>
>
> Kindest Regards,
> Linda
>
>
i nominate this post for an award at the end of the year !
William O. West
to do with Scientology.
.
Werner Erhard was, at one time, a car salesman, working for
Lee Iacoca in Philadelphia. At a different time in his life, he was
an active $cientologist who practiced auditing on others. At a
later time in his life, he was a Mind Dynamics trainer. Then, he
founded "est," using modified Scientology jargon and Mind Dynamics
practices to distract people who participated while he made another
point, entirely. He also swiped a few Co$ organizational practices,
to his detriment.
.
Along came Arnold Siegel and Fernando Flores, functioning as gurus for the
stuck-in-place Werner Erhard. Flores's doctoral thesis in linguistic
philosophy
was modified into seminars under Erhard's tutelage, and, subsequently, many
of Flores's ideas were incorparated into the Forum, and Erhard was, for a
time, Flores's partner in Action Technologies.
.
Flores invented something which was added to something which was, in part
rooted in $cientology. That doesn't make him a $cientologist.
William O. West
> The Swiss newsmag "FACTS", perhaps anybody, Tilman(?), can bring it to the
> newsgroups, published in his new issue no. 40 today another story about the
> political links between Oskar Lafontaine, SPD, the new strong leader in
> Germany and Fernando Flores, his socialist close friend! Its starting now
> getting a bigger scandal in Germany because the Newsmag "FOCUS" from Germany
> also published today a first article about the scandal. Is there a new
> "Watergate" coming? Was has the SPD to hide? Think about, Alex
This really makes me wonder about people who declare ANYTHING
to be a scandal.
Martin Luther's Short Cathecism discusses gossip under the rubric "Thou
shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." It's a sin, not a crime.
Bill Clinton's infidelity is a sin, not a crime. Being Fernando Flores or
being a Socialist is neither a sin nor a crime.
The Watergate Scandal invovled the commission of a crime - the burglary
of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate
complex by agents of Richard M. Nixon and other representatives of the
RepubliKKKan Party, and the subsequent crimes Nixon committed as an accessory to the
original crime.
William O. West
> The Swiss newsmag "FACTS", perhaps anybody, Tilman(?), can bring it to the
> newsgroups, published in his new issue no. 40 today another story about the
> political links between Oskar Lafontaine, SPD, the new strong leader in
> Germany and Fernando Flores, his socialist close friend! Its starting now
> getting a bigger scandal in Germany because the Newsmag "FOCUS" from Germany
> also published today a first article about the scandal. Is there a new
> "Watergate" coming? Was has the SPD to hide? Think about, Alex
This really makes me wonder about people who declare ANYTHING
to be a scandal.
Martin Luther's Short Cathecism discusses gossip under the rubric "Thou
shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." It's a sin, not a crime.
Bill Clinton's infidelity is a sin, not a crime. Being Fernando Flores or
being a Socialist is neither a sin nor a crime.
The Watergate Scandal invovled the commission of a crime - the burglary
of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate
complex - by agents of Richard M. Nixon and other representatives of the
RepubliKKKan Party, and the subsequent crimes Nixon committed as an
accessory to the original crime.
Nothing William Clinton or Fernando Flores has done is anything at all
like a "Watergate."
William Barwell
William O. West <wow...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------C79791CFEDDE4B65EA60B7F7
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>rpf...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
****************** Deleted ******************
>
>This really makes me wonder about people who declare ANYTHING
>to be a scandal.
>
>Martin Luther's Short Cathecism discusses gossip under the rubric "Thou
>shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an
evildoer, or as busybody in other men's matters.
Not really much to do with this thread but it is one of my favorite
bible verses.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
TheEdge
>>This really makes me wonder about people who declare ANYTHING
>>to be a scandal.
>>
>>Martin Luther's Short Cathecism discusses gossip under the rubric >>"Thou
>>crime.
>>Bill Clinton's infidelity is a sin, not a crime.
>>automatically extend a "Get out of Jail Free" card to him.
>Do you feel that these charges should be ignored, forgotten and
>forgiven just because the WH has spun them to be about sex only ?
>You truly can't be that stupid.<
I like Fred a lot but don't listen to this William.
William thank you for being neutral and natural in your post's.
Look Fred there is more than one way to look at the Clinton scandal. I was
living in France when the story broke and every one I knew (new I was
American) asked me what the big deal was. I told them that the Europeans did
a fantastic job of chasing away all the religious fanatics and puritans
and they are in America now. I told them that we are a new country and
haven't had a thousand years of sex scandals. I told them that Clinton is
now my hero,.....that they understood :-) The truth.
William spoke for me at a time when no one speaks for me. Fred I like you a
whole lot and I don't want to lose William. So I want to defend William
without messing with you. I don't know how to do this.
I used to argue with my mother about the law. She was right when she said
if you want to create criminals, make stuff illegal. It's the same thing
with the major religions, make it sin. It's about control. Then there is the
voice of reason
that isn't concerned with making people criminals but rather with what is
natural. It was natural that Bill hid like crazy his affair. Especially
given the background conversation in America and American religion and
politics.
Fred please don't allow this issue to create any distance between us
especially since we haven't met yet and William thank you for speaking for
me.
Bobby.
rpf...@hotmail.com
and Erhard? Did you worked with Erhard or Flores? Any proof of the
relationship? Why do you know that Flores is not using Scientology tech in
his BDA seminars? Erhard and Flores are still in contact! What has Erhard to
do with Flores' BDA? Alex from Germany
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> adr: P.O. Box 2669;;;Winnetka;CA;91396-2669;United States
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>
> --------------8AB86765D8A36FA46DFF0B2B--
TheEdge
>snip<
>>>You truly can't be that stupid.<<<
>>I like Fred a lot but don't listen to this William.<<
>You don't know me Bobby and I could care less if you like me.<
I didn't want to create a riff between us before I actually ever spoke to
you. Now that you have created the riff I don't have to worry about such
niceties.
>William's a big boy and can respond without your mothering. William,
>I'm sure, gets that I mean stupid as a "state of being", not a
>playground name. <
Mothering? I was telling him how much he spoke for me in his post. If you
said nothing I would have posted about the same and I don't care who you
call stupid.
>Infidelity may be a sin but lying under oath to a jury is a crime here
>in the US.<
The law is about justice, and balance. You have your foot on one side of the
scale. Your a black or white kind of guy. So are bad judges.
>You seem to be fully Forumized, so it's strange that you'd defend
>someone who can't keep his word. I seem to remember William >Jefferson
>Clinton speaking these words (twice), '"I do solemnly swear that I
>will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States,
>and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the
>Constitution of the United States."<
No one is saying that he didn't preserve, protect, and defend the
Constitution of the United States. Also no one is saying that he didn't
break the law when he lied about ML. The majority of the country forgives
Bill and doesn't care that he lied to cover up an affair. You represent the
pissed off minority. Stay pissed off, I don't care.
>So you've been had by the WH propaganda machine when you ignore >the
>facts of this case. It's not about sex. It's about law.<
I don't care. Im not going to drag my country through this bullshit so you
can scratch your itch.
>>I used to argue with my mother about the law. She was right when she
>>said
>>if you want to create criminals, make stuff illegal. It's the same thing
>>with the major religions, make it sin. It's about control. Then there is
the
>>voice of reason
>>that isn't concerned with making people criminals but rather with what
>>is
>>natural. It was natural that Bill hid like crazy his affair. Especially
>>given the background conversation in America and American religion >>and
>>politics.<<
>You can't mean what you just said.
>So if it's natural to flee from the scene of a rape, then it's OK ?
>If I rob a bank and kill a teller and it's natural for me to run away
>or lie about it because I don't want to go to prison, it's OK ?<
That was what I would argue with my mother about. You hold the argument I
held but that was before I realized that what my mother was telling me was a
different thing than what I was telling her. Her point is simple and it's
about a method of controlling and how we get controlled. I wasn't talking
about what laws are good or bad. Politics has become a pissing match.
Americans aren't just saying there fed up with it they are voting the people
doing the pissing out of office.
>You can't generalize or rationalize away what Clinton is accused of.
>It won't fly.<
No one is saying he didn't do what he did, we just don't care and concider
how he was gotten to- to be worse.
>>Fred please don't allow this issue to create any distance between us
>>especially since we haven't met yet and William thank you for >>speaking
for
>>me.<<
>We will never meet and there is distance between us. That's just how
>it is. You need not mince words on my behalf. I actually respect
>those more who tell the truth and say what they mean without fear of
>offending. The offense is with the listener. It's created "over
>there".<
I think my posts with Carl and others show I have no fear here. I just
didn't want to needlessly create a problem with you considering I was
responding to William and not to you. It looks like you're all bent out of
shape because I was thoughtful.
>Just curious, are you female Bobby ? Not to be disrespectful, but you
>"sound" effeminate ("not that there's anything wrong with that",
>Seinfeld 8>) ).<
Im a man. Fuck you for suggesting otherwise.
>PS: Why don't you take the same care in your conversations with
>Markus and Carl ? You haven't heard a thing they've tried to get
>across to you. What they have attempted to say has real value and
>they come across to me as being as genuine as they can muster in this
>medium. Listen more closely, they aren't telling you you're wrong or
>that LEC is bad. They're sharing a perspective that you have no
>chance of ever experiencing and you're blowing it...........almost to
>my level of blowing it.<
You must be good at something. Everyone is good at something. If I started
telling you a load of crap regarding the thing you are good at ,you would
try to set me strait. There's no make wrong in that. Carl has a point when
it comes to Zen. What are you good at? As for there perspective regarding
the Forum, I've been there and know terrain well. My thoughts on the Forum
before I did it where far worse than anything you guys have come up with.
You want some hints? Try useing facts as a weapon.
Anyway, I hope you've had your daily spew and others will be safe today.
Bobby.
Khnu...@aol.com
{Grand} jury is a crime here in the U.S."
"So you've been had by the WH propaganda machine
when you ignore the facts of this case. It's not about sex.
It's about the law." -Fred Kidd
Ever notice that those who scream loudest about the
law seem to know the least about it?
-------------------------------------
1) As for the naure of the OIC's evidence:
"The grand jury's historic role is not to determine the
Truth but rather to act as an accusatory body. "
"Grand jury witnesses have no right to respond with
information, however related, if it is not called for by the
prosecution."
(U.S. v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 51 (1992))
"Grand Jury testimony is inherently one-sided and untested
by cross examination, and it is usually not permissible to
use grand jury testimony as a basis for anything other
than permitting a grand jury to indict or decline to indict.
It may constitute nothing more than hearsay"
(Costello v. U.S. 350 U.S. 359, 364 (1956))
Therefore, "reliability" is gauge of a grand-jury inquiry.
The Supreme court has stated that "the mere fact that
Evidence is unreliable is not sufficient to require a dismissal
Of an indictment."
(Bank of Nova Scotia v. U.S. 487 U.S. 250, 261 (1988))
This also hold for "inadequate or incompetent" evidence
2) As for perjury, and lying under oath to a grand jury:
The Supreme Court dismissed a perjury conviction against a witness
Who made a statement that was accurate in the present tense
But was otherwise clearly false and misleading.
(United States v. Bronston, 409 U.S. 352 (1973) )
When the Supreme Court reviewed Bronston's conviction, the
Justice Department argued that testimony fell into a category of
Perjury defined as "intentionally misleading responses with an
Especially strong tendency to mislead the questioner."
Chief Justice Warren E. Burger for the unanimous court wrote:
"The burden is on the questioner to pin the witness down to
the specific object of the questioner's inquiry."
While Bronston's answers appeared "shrewdly calculated to evade,
Any special problems arising from the literally true but unresponsive
Answer are to be remedied through the 'questioner's acuity'
And not by a federal perjury prosecution."
"We are not dealing with casual conversation and the statute
does not make it a criminal act for a witness to willfully state any
material matter that implies any material matter that he does
not believe to be true." "A jury should not be permitted to
engage in conjecture whether an unresponsive answer, true
and complete on it's face, was intended to mislead or divert
the examiner."
The court "perceived no reason why Congress would intend the
Drastic sanction of a perjury prosecution to cure a testimonial
Mishap that could have been reached with a single additional
Question by counsel alert, as every counsel ought to be."
Fundamentally ambiguous questions cannot produce
perjurious answers:
United States v. Finucan, 708 F.2d 838, 848 (1st Cir. 1983);
United States v. Lighte, 782 F.2d 367, 375 (2d Cir. 1986);
United States v. Tonelli, 577 F.2d 194, 199 (3d Cir. 1978);
United States v. Bell, 623 F.2d 1132, 1337 (5th Cir. 1980);
United States v. Wall, 371 F.2d 398, 400 (6th Cir. 1967);
United States v. Williams, 552 F.2d 226, 229 (8th Cir. 1977)
A Perjury Case Must Not Be Based Solely Upon the Testimony of a
Single Witness.
This ancient common law rule, referred to as the "two-witness rule,"
Weiler v. United States, 323 U.S. 606, 608-610 (1945)
(discussing the history and policy rationales of the two-witness rule);
In Weiler v. United States, 323 U.S. 606, 608-09 (1945),
the United States Supreme Court observed that "[t]he special rule which
bars conviction for perjury solely upon the evidence of a single
witness is deeply rooted in past centuries." The Court
further observed that "equally honest witnesses may well have differing
recollections of the same event," and hence "a conviction for perjury ought
not to rest entirely upon "an oath against an oath." Id. at 609
United States v. Chaplin, 25 F.3d 1373, 1377-78 (7th Cir. 1994)
(two-witness rule applies to perjury prosecutions).
The Department of Justice recognizes the applicability of
the two-witness rule to perjury prosecutions brought under ยง 1621. See
Department of Justice Manual, 1997 Supplement, at 9-69.265.
I wonder if Fredd Kidd is also this concerned regarding possible
conflicts of interests between the conservative Jones Lawyers, their
background lawyers like Jerome Marcus (who is a friend and associate
of Ken Starr's legal partner Richard Porter, who is also a friend of
Lucianne Goldberg) , George Conway III, Theodore
Olson (who is a close friend of Starr's). What was the nature
of these connections providing James Moody as counsel
For Linda Tripp? What did Ken Starr know, and when did
he know it? It's clear from further release of evidence that the
Jones Lawyers knew the details of Monica Lewinsky as far back
as November 97. It's also possible from the investigation done on
the above parties, that Ken Starr knew of those details at least 3-4
days than officially stated, which would give them time to
prepare the perjury entrapment.
My guess, Fredd, is that you didn't like Clinton in 92', you didn't Like him
in 96', and you don't like him now. Only now you wrap an american flag
around yourself, and scream about law and order for the President. When
what you espouse is a far greater travesty of justice and due process than
whatever Clinton has done.
-
Take care,
Robert
http://members.aol.com/Terranova0/diet.index.html
Khnu...@aol.com
fk...@vnet.net wrote:
>Hi Khnum,
>So you're going to prove your own point.....strange ?
>So it's OK to lie if you do respond ?
First, you simply ignored the nature of discovery and
grand jury testimony. An example of deflecting the real
issue possibly? That there simply is no case?
>Keyword-"may". If the accused admits they lied and he did, I kinda doubt if
>that's considered hearsay.
You are there to answer the questions as accurately as possible.
As for "lying", he admitted having innappropriate contact with Monica
Lewinsky, but was literally accurate in his responses to counsel.
Refer to the Jones deposition:
Q. I think I used the term "sexual affair." And so the record is completely
clear, have you ever had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky, as that
term is defined in Deposition Exhibit 1, as modified by the Court.
MR. BENNETT: I object because I don't know that he can remember.
JUDGE WRIGHT: Well, it's real short. He can - I will permit the
question and you may show the witness definition number one.
The Jones legal team submitted the following "Definition of Sexual Relations"
to the court: For the purposes of this deposition, a person
engages in "sexual relations" when the person knowingly engages
in or causes - (1) contact with the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner
thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to arouse or gratify the
sexual desire of any person;
A. I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. I've never
had an affair with her.
As you can plainly see, oral sex is not covered under this definition.
>So DNA evidence is inadequate ?
All the DNA shows is that he indeed have innappropriate contact with
here once, oral sex, which wasn't covered on definition #1 according
to the Jones lawyers. If you still contend that Clinton is lying about
fondling her breasts or any other alleged activities, refer to the previous
two-witness rule and materiality according to the laws of perjury.
>I hear you Khnum. I really have no like or dislike of Clinton. I don't know
>the guy personally. If I did, I'd probably like him.
I was referring to you possibly haven voted for him. I sense you probably
didn't.
>However I believe that he has committed an unpardonable legal sin
You mean a trumped up, two-bit perjury charge? Where is the Whitewater,
Filegate, Travelgate referrals? Surely those are far more substantial charge
than allegations of lying about fondling Monica's breasts.
>and he's disgraced the office of the President.
Gee, I thought Nixon using the CIA to cover-up an FBI investigation regarding
the coverup of a break-in, paying hush money (bribe) to the CIA burglers, to
fix the 1972 election; And Ron Reagan, selling arms to terrorists (which he
publically wagged his finger at the cameras and stated he would never do
business with Terrorists) in order to fund an illegal war, ignoring the
Boland ammendment passed by Congress, did more to disgrace the office of
President.
Maybe you condone and describe these acts as "Presidential" , but I am far
more outraged at these injustices to the Constitution than any small, paultry
perjury charge on Clinton.
As Alexander Hamilton wrote:
"The subjects of {the Senate's impeachment} jurisdiction are those
offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or in
other words from the abuse of violation of some public trust.
They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated
POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done to the society itself."
In other words public officials should be not be impeached for private
conduct.
>Your comments about the Jones' legal team and Starr are just
>more examples of deflecting the real issue---
You mean the real issue of Starr's lack of a credible case?
Gee, that's funny Fred. I thought you were all about law and order?
Do you want to ignore and forget about serious misconduct by the OIC?
Is Ken Starr above the law, but Clinton isn't? Or are you
worried about the grave implications that follow from the
fact that the President was set up by his political enemies?
Are you worried that Starr and his associated conspired to
bring down a sitting President? I for one, look forward to seeing
Starr and his cronies subpeoned and questioned by the House
Judiciary Committee.
>your President can't be trusted to keep his word or tell the truth.
Well Fred, if this is your first experience with a politician not
being truthful, politics may not be the thing for you.
--
rnovar
case that some of us don't care what he did, understand why he lied about it
and see the law and bigger and better than the petty use to which the
yahoo's seem to wish to use it. Like the rest of that elements agenda, it
is malleable as in no welfare for people but keep them dollars flowing to
the corps. and make sure those hedge funds don't collapse but spend no money
on new school buildings. It is starting to become clearer it seems to me
just who represents who in the body politic.
I meant to stay out but was compelled to speak up. Oh well.
TheEdge wrote in message <7007ij$a...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Khnu...@aol.com
fk...@vnet.net (Fred "Law & Order" Kidd) wrote:
> What happened to Nixon ?
Before he resigned in August 1974, there was a motion to impeach Nixon in
1973 for lying about income tax matters. The democratic House decided that it
wasn't an impeachable offense. But, the Watergate cover-up was.
>
> So jump in your time machine and go back to bitch about something that
> can't be undone in present time.
Well, it's comparing and contrasting other impeachable and possible
impeachable offenses to determine if Clinton's charges (if they ever decide
on what they are- since the ones they have will be hard to prove under a
normal penal code.) Apparently, lying about money, financial, and tax matters
has been determined to be un-impeachable offenses (that is also true for Newt
Gingrich, Fred). But Fred and the other "law & order" conservatives maintain
it's not about sex, yet lying about tax matters, while a crime, is relatively
O.K., but "lying" about sex is an outrageous offense. If you want to call Ken
Starr's Kengresional Kangaroo Kourt American justice, I think you seriously
need to reconsider how your supposed passion for law and order really is.
kangaroo court:
1 : a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded
or perverted 2 : a court characterized by irresponsible, unauthorized, or
irregular status or procedures 3 : judgment or punishment given outside of
legal procedure
> Even if it violates the "public trust"--see January finger wagging
> incident. You can't have it both ways.
According to public opinion polls, Americans are favoring the President, and
ending the sexual McCarthyism. Even if you don't like what he did to the
public in January, that is not a crime. And Americans understand what he was
doing, and what he was lying about. I think it's you Fred, and the other
conservatives, who can't have it both ways. You can't force him to resign
when the public is still behind him, and you can't impeach him because the
charges will not stand up in a real court of law, nor will it in the Senate
where it will die and ugly death if it doesn't in the House first.
WHICH IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO VOTE NOVEMBER 3. The conservatives fear
nothing more (outside of someone taking their money and material possesions
in which they associate their being with) is large voter turn-outs.
> Yeah, Monica is a Republican plant.
It's not Monica I want to know about, it's Linda Tripp and how she retained
James Moddy, it's the connectios between Lucianne Goldberg, her friend
Richard Porter (who is a legal partner of Ken Starr's), his relationship with
the rest of the Jones Lawyers (Cammarata/Davis) "Kitchen Cabinet": Jerome
Marcus, George Conway III, Theodore Olsen (who is a close friend and
associate of Starr) Ann Coulter, and how Coulter and McMillan (Jones
publicist) retained lawyers from the Scaife funded Rutherford Institute for
Jones after Cammarata and Davis left. I want to know what Starr knew and
when, why he witheeld Monica from contacting her lawyer, and mother, I want
to know what legal jurisdiction he had to wire Tripp, when he was
unauthorized to do so. What is the extent of the conflict of interest of
Starr having to work on the Jones case in 94'.
You may say it's deflecting the "real" issues, but as the head of the KGB
once said "Give me the man, and I will find the crime!" Are you worried that
this is what is being done by Starr? Even more worried that you don't have
the backing of the American people in your sexual Coup? Maybe the American
people recognise this, and that why the Presidents numbers are strong. Are
you worried of the backlash it may have on others who buy into the bogus "law
and order" stance on Clinton?
My guess Fred, is that you don't really care about law and order, or what
Clinton has supposedly done to the office. Just by him winning in 1992, you
probably concluded that he has damaged the office, even before he was sworn
in. And you probably don't like his social views or vision, which has little
to do with your overriding concern for law and order.
I, for one, will be there, NOVEMBER 3rd
--
rpf...@hotmail.com
thanks alot alex
In article <kJvR1.2463$Dh6.7...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>,
"Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote:
> Here's another reference. I found this at http://minet.org/TM-EX/Winter-92.
>
> This source might be somewhat biased. It is a newsletter for the
> "Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group."
>
> It's also an interesting glimpse at a time not so long ago when the email
> "market" was very, very different.
>
> >>
> DaVinci Ups Mail Ante By Buying Coordinator
>
> DaVinci Systems Corp. announced it has purchased Action Technologies Inc.'s
> Coordinator.
>
> The sale will give DaVinci customers the choice of the firm's own low-end
> eMAIL software or Coordinator, a more sophisticated messaging package with
> work-flow automation features.
>
> Because the DaVinci and Action programs are the No. 1 and No. 2 selling
> programs based on the Message Handling Service (MHS) mail standard--and
> together account for more than 600,000 users--DaVinci becomes a strong
> E-mail rival to Lotus Development Corp. and Microsoft Corp. in terms of
> sheer numbers of users. The purchase of Coordinator also presents DaVinci,
> known for its eMAIL program's ease of use, with the opportunity to modify
> Action's sophisticated program for broader appeal.
>
> Coordinator's complex nature kept it from making a big splash in the
> mainstream corporate market.
>
> Action, an Alameda, CA company with 35 employees, last year generated $6.5
> million in revenue. PC Week, November 4, 1991, Steve Higgins
>
> [Editors' Note: Action Technologies, Inc. is owned by a group including
> Werner Erhard of est and The Forum, and Fernando Flores of Logonet, who
> developed the Coordinator software.]