hidden camera - Inside Landmark Forum
astag...@yahoo.fr
a hidden camera so you can see what they do to you
while you have rested and have time to think ..
something you are not allowed in the Forum
Show your friends now so they can know it
when someone tries to make them go
6 parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUdYhvzGTA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWejJeMLKpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2hI0U8C24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwA_dK23XE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_NU0SuWMI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra2Cw_zhITI
This is the video, with English subtitles,
that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
Landmark left France!
Eldon
Eldon
only the first part of a series. I didn't notice any indication of
whether the whole thing was two or three parts, just that the end title
says "end of Part I".
Part 5 is interesting, because they bring in a former Scientologist who
comments on the similarity of the language used. Basiclally, she says
it sounds just like Hubbard. I assume they get into Werner's
involvement in a subsequent show.
In Part 6, they get heavily into the labor law issue, questioning
whether it's legal for Landmark to use volunteer labor for office work
and recruitment. At the end there's a hidden camera dinner interview
with a doctor who is recruiting his friends, work colleagues and
patients. What they're eating at the restaurant looks yummy.
The subtitle translations, BTW, are very well done and accurate. The
one license taken is that the translator used "brainwashing" habitually
when people said "mental manipulation." (French has a literal
colloquial term for "washing the brain", which is also used within the
show. Slight difference in nuance.)
patrick_darcy
if can save these videos in case they are taken
down. i dont have flash installed in my 64 bit
machine at the moment but mandriva will release
2007 shortly and i will. i cant watch the videos
but would love to see them.
--
Love is all u need.
Eldon
I don't think they will be taken down, but you could go see them at a
friend's place or ask to have them burned onto a CD. It is frustrating
to have one's PC outmoded every couple of years or so. Microsoft sucks
worse than any other company, but Apple pisses me off too lately.
patrick_darcy
the reason i dont have flash is because i have been
beta testing their software. usually i do have it.
i could change back to mandriva 2006 but i am enjoying
my bobbly desktop too much to do that.
one of the cool feature is when i move say my
mail or my browser around when i move it, it acts
like jello, it sways around and when i relese it
it becomes solid again. very cool stuff.
Eldon
Applications being used are stored on the "dock" in Apple OS X and
there is a transparency thing to it. They sort of "swoop" up and down
when they are brought up for use. It's moderately psychedelic that way.
But so much becomes obsolete all the time, getting us to upgrade by
messing up the old stuff. Maybe we should all just switch to Linux, or
back to the Amiga kernel, which was a terrific system.
patrick_darcy
ahh everybody switching to linux would be wonderful.
u woundnt have to buy and run all the software to
stop virus's and wurms or whatever u get.
elle...@hotmail.com
astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
> This is the video, with English subtitles,
> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> Landmark left France!
Hey "Tex!"
Notice how many times the word "abuse" was used by participants? And
not only for themselves but the abuse they witnessed towards others.
Wait, wait....don't tell me....YOU didn't ~experience~ any abuse so
these fools must have had something wrong with their perceptions, their
perspectives, their ~interpretations.~
Gee, the French reporters had no trouble making the cult or the
scientology or the abuse connection.
Appalling and disgusting how these idiots use (un)sophisticated,
intrusive pyschological techniques on the unwitting and uninformed. I
don't know how they sleep at night except for the obvious fact that
they're sociopaths and have no feelings of shame or guilt at harming or
exploiting others.
Ellen
Eldon
> astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
>
> > This is the video, with English subtitles,
> > that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> > Landmark left France!
> Hey "Tex!"
>
> Notice how many times the word "abuse" was used by participants? And
> not only for themselves but the abuse they witnessed towards others.
> Wait, wait....don't tell me....YOU didn't ~experience~ any abuse so
> these fools must have had something wrong with their perceptions, their
> perspectives, their ~interpretations.~
>
> Gee, the French reporters had no trouble making the cult or the
> scientology or the abuse connection.
Well Ellen, here is another subtle thing about the French language
(apart from its pesky Latin syntax). The word used in French was
VIOLENCE and sometimes VIOLENT.
There is no language distinction possible between physical and mental
abuse. In the French mentality, they are equivalent. If you insult
someone in public, you injure the person. You might as well have used a
baseball bat.
What was totally shocking to French people was to see that Landmark
leader ASSHOLE denigrate people in front of a large audience. That is
something French people will NEVER do directly. It is unheard of. They
would either couch it in coy, generalized philosophical terms in public
as a debate, or they would call the person aside privately to upbraid
them behind a closed door, one-on-one. It's just a cultural thing that
has to do with manners.
I am not holding up the French as an ideal example of civilization, but
they do at least have a sense of demeanor and mutual self respect.
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159431365.5...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
>
>> This is the video, with English subtitles,
>> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
>> Landmark left France!
>
>
>
> Hey "Tex!"
>
> Notice how many times the word "abuse" was used by participants? And
> not only for themselves but the abuse they witnessed towards others.
> Wait, wait....don't tell me....YOU didn't ~experience~ any abuse so
> these fools must have had something wrong with their perceptions, their
> perspectives, their ~interpretations.~
>
> Gee, the French reporters had no trouble making the cult or the
> scientology or the abuse connection.
Do you think these french "reporters" have the same type of credentials as
Chris Wallace of Fox News.
Ellen, you are attacking "windmills."
Tex
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159444509.1...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
You've got to be kidding me!!!
I've worked in Paris while there on business and found the French, the home
of my ancestors, to be rude, even by Boston standards.
And you are using the Net to denigrate people in public all the time Eldon.
Do you see the hypocrisy in your statements?
elle...@hotmail.com
(I would have called it "skewered" rather than "pinned.")
TELEVISION
Landmark education pinned by France 3!
Number 61 of Bubbles (1st quarter 1999) devoted an article to
Landmark Education, movement indexed in the two parliamentary
reports/ratios of 1996 and 1999. The ADFI Paris received in 1998 177
calls relating to it "announcing surprising, and even worrying
intrigues". The reading of the article of Bubbles shows that nothing
seems to have changed with the kingdom of Landmark. The customers fill
today still a form releasing the movement with any responsibility and
the objectives seem identical: promises of improvement of life and
guarantee of "success" in particular. Already at the time the
author of the article of Bubbles was astonished by the small number of
employees, of the great number of voluntary and... the absence of
intervention of the Factory inspectorate.
Last on May 24, France 3 entirely devoted its emission
"Exhibits" to Landmark Education, under the title: "Voyage to the
countries of the new gurus". A journalist, Laurent Richard, equipped
with a hidden camera, had infiltrated to follow a training course
entitled the Forum, seminar of three days personal development,
invoicee 395 euros. 80 trainees will undergo in closed vase the
aggressions verbal, violent and destabilizing of Alain Roth, the large
leader of review, which is also president de Landmark Education in
France. To take again a short cut of Charlie Hebdo: "of the brain let
us make close-cropped table", Landmark Forum remains indeed a model
as regards washing of brain. In three days, it succeeds in destroying
the capacity of reflexion of the trainees for better inculcating to
them the commands of the Forum in a language revisited and obscure for
the uninitiated person. A "height of the endoctrination! The goal is
in fact double: to convince the participants to continue the
"formation" by more advanced courses and especially to make
pressure so that each one of them enrôle close relations. Famous
companies send their employees to the Forum. "It is enough that a
framework takes part in the forum [...] and invites his/her colleagues
and its subordinates to imitate it" so that it creates for itself an
action thus "swell of snow".
In 1991, Alain Roth had succeeded in infiltrating the direction of
IBM France.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here it is in the original:
http://www.unadfi.com/bulles/bulles%2082/bulles8213.htm
Landmark éducation épinglé par France 3 !
Le numéro 61 de Bulles (1er trimestre 1999) consacrait un article
à Landmark Education, mouvement répertorié dans les deux rapports
parlementaires de 1996 et de 1999. L'ADFI Paris recevait en 1998 177
appels le concernant « signalant des agissements surprenants, et
même inquiétants ». La lecture de l'article de Bulles démontre
que rien ne semble avoir changé au royaume de Landmark. Les clients
remplissent aujourd'hui encore un formulaire dégageant le mouvement
de toute responsabilité et les buts poursuivis semblent identiques :
promesses d'amélioration de vie et garantie de « succès »
notamment. Déjà à l'époque l'auteur de l'article de Bulles
s'étonnait du petit nombre de salariés, du grand nombre de
bénévoles et de... l'absence d'intervention de l'Inspection du
Travail.
Le 24 mai dernier, France 3 consacrait entièrement son émission
« Pièces à conviction » à Landmark Education, sous le titre : «
Voyage aux pays des nouveaux gourous ». Un journaliste, Laurent
Richard, équipé d'une caméra cachée, s'était infiltré pour
suivre un stage intitulé Le Forum, séminaire de développement
personnel de trois jours, facturé 395 euros. 80 stagiaires vont subir
en vase clos les agressions verbales, violentes et déstabilisantes
d'Alain Roth, le grand meneur de revue, qui est aussi le président
de Landmark Education en France. Pour reprendre un raccourci de Charlie
Hebdo : « du cerveau faisons table rase », le Landmark Forum reste
effectivement un modèle en matière de lavage de cerveau. En trois
jours, il réussit à anéantir la capacité de réflexion des
stagiaires pour mieux leur inculquer les commandements du Forum dans un
langage revisité et obscur pour le non-initié. Un « summum de
l'endoctrinement ! Le but est en fait double : convaincre les
participants de poursuivre la « formation » par des cours plus
avancés et surtout faire pression pour que chacun d'eux enrôle des
proches. Des entreprises réputées envoient leurs salariés au Forum.
« Il suffit qu'un cadre participe au forum [...] et invite ses
collègues et ses subordonnés à l'imiter » pour qu'il se crée
ainsi une action « boule de neige ».
En 1991, Alain Roth avait réussi à infiltrer la direction d'IBM
France.
elle...@hotmail.com
Tex piddled:
> Do you think these french "reporters" have the same type of credentials as
> Chris Wallace of Fox News.
> Ellen, you are attacking "windmills."
Time for another review in critical thinking, "Tex."
No need to lump all reporters in the "Chris Wallace" pile unless you're
an idiot.
And these reporters backed up their assertions with tape, with
witnesses, with expert opinion and testimony. Hey, how'd you like the
Landmark "expert" back-peddling? He was willing to take their money
but not to destroy his own reputation or look like a fool by actually
defending them. So Landmarky, don't you think?
Ellen
jim_...@my-dejanews.com
Eldon wrote:
> Inpressive ! TV 3 did a lot of work on the show, and it seems this is
> only the first part of a series. I didn't notice any indication of
> whether the whole thing was two or three parts, just that the end title
> says "end of Part I".
>
> Part 5 is interesting, because they bring in a former Scientologist who
> comments on the similarity of the language used. Basiclally, she says
> it sounds just like Hubbard. I assume they get into Werner's
> involvement in a subsequent show.
>
> In Part 6, they get heavily into the labor law issue, questioning
> whether it's legal for Landmark to use volunteer labor for office work
> and recruitment. At the end there's a hidden camera dinner interview
> with a doctor who is recruiting his friends, work colleagues and
> patients. What they're eating at the restaurant looks yummy.
>
> The subtitle translations, BTW, are very well done and accurate. The
> one license taken is that the translator used "brainwashing" habitually
> when people said "mental manipulation." (French has a literal
> colloquial term for "washing the brain", which is also used within the
> show. Slight difference in nuance.)
Interesting piece. The two most 'disturbing' parts, for me, where the
'coaching' of the woman in the beginning and the little 'chat' with the
volunteer in the bathroom. I'm not sure how prevelant the first is but
the second (the chat with the bathroom washer) is probrably typical of
the kind of dialogue that goes on within the 'assitant ranks' (a good
reason to not be an assistant). The only positive 'spin' that I saw was
the share of the doctor in which he 'confessed' to his son (or at least
that's what he said) that he (the doc) was 'manipulating' his own son
so as to make himself 'look' good. I found that pretty powerful (in a
good way). I wonder if he ~got~ that from the ~coaching~ given to the
first woman.
I found the 'examples' much more interesting then the editorial
comments, though it would have been more instructive if they were
complete and not snippets (the danger excercise never got to the 'punch
line', for example.)
On the editorial side, I found the French expert of interest. He
apparently had suggested more rigorous disclosure and screening
techniques as well as 'support' for any post training 'issues' that may
arise. Couldn't agree more with this suggestion, though LEC appears to
have not listened.
Eldon
You're so full of shit that I can't even make much of a comment. Oh,
OK. I'll try. All you have to do is look at the videos
I can't see how this program could be compared to Fox news. What got me
was the objectivity. They really went out of their wåy to present the
other side, although of couse, they were pretty sneaky about having
someone in the French Landmarkk chieftan's office when they made the
phone call and he got on the phone to San Francisco.
Didn't do much to keep them afloat in France, did it?
Now why don't you make a phone call to San Francisco and tell them
there's big trouble on the Internet. Give them my IP address Yessiree!
Cowboy!
See what they say. Tell them I said to fuck off. See how that goes
over.
Eldon
These reporters did a lot of work and put a considerable amount of CARE
and EFFORT into producing that show. Just look at the research they
did. It wasn't some little overnight thingie. They dug deep into the
dirt. But actually, they let that "expert" psychologist off the hook
pretty easily.
That's what I like about the Frogs. Not to mention that they are such
loyal friends. They're pretty forgiving overall. I doubt that many
people have lingering resentments about having taken the Landmark Forum
now that it's FINISHED IN FRANCE FOREVER. Yes it is, kiddos. Don't even
think aboutf trying it again.
But that fact might piss off Landmark management a bit. I hope so.
>
>
>
> Ellen
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159466880.4...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tex piddled:
>
>> Do you think these french "reporters" have the same type of credentials
>> as
>> Chris Wallace of Fox News.
>> Ellen, you are attacking "windmills."
>
>
> Time for another review in critical thinking, "Tex."
>
> No need to lump all reporters in the "Chris Wallace" pile unless you're an
> idiot.
Although Chris Wallace got we he deserved from President Clinton, he has had
a very respectable record over the years.
I could find 10 or 20 participants from any Landmark event and tilt a
documentary to any way of my choosing. It would be easier to find the ones
who liked it though, since they out number the ones who didn't like it by
about ten to one.
Tex
Tex,
You're so full of shit that I can't even make much of a comment. Oh,
OK. I'll try. All you have to do is look at the videos
I can't see how this program could be compared to Fox news. What got me
was the objectivity. They really went out of their wåy to present the
other side, although of couse, they were pretty sneaky about having
someone in the French Landmarkk chieftan's office when they made the
phone call and he got on the phone to San Francisco.
Didn't do much to keep them afloat in France, did it?
Now why don't you make a phone call to San Francisco and tell them
there's big trouble on the Internet. Give them my IP address Yessiree!
Cowboy!
See what they say. Tell them I said to fuck off. See how that goes over.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tex replies,
Eldon,
You have delusions of grandeur, just like Don Quixote.
You think you are winning battles against windmills.
The windmill doesn't care if you tell it to fuck off.
It just keeps on turning.
But if you want to tell them to fuck off, here's their contact info.
I can see that "friendly" french influence has effected your manners.
San Francisco
Landmark Education
Mailing Address: 543 Howard Street, Lower Level
Event Entrance: 44 Tehama Street
San Francisco, CA 94105
United States
1-415-882-6300
1-415-882-6318 (fax)
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159431365.5...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
>
>> This is the video, with English subtitles,
>> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
>> Landmark left France!
>
>
>
> Hey "Tex!"
>
> Notice how many times the word "abuse" was used by participants? And
> not only for themselves but the abuse they witnessed towards others.
> Wait, wait....don't tell me....YOU didn't ~experience~ any abuse so
> these fools must have had something wrong with their perceptions, their
> perspectives, their ~interpretations.~
LOL!!!!
Ellen, you're so abusive.
You know that about yourself, don't you?
elle...@hotmail.com
jim_...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Interesting piece. The two most 'disturbing' parts, for me, where the
> 'coaching' of the woman in the beginning and the little 'chat' with the
> volunteer in the bathroom.
Hi Jim,
Why did you put apostrophes around the word "disturbing?" Or
"coaching" or "chat" for that matter. You do this with a lot of words.
What is the reason?
Just curious.
(And weren't you just the tiniest bit disturbed by the ex-scientologist
who said it sounded just like L. Ron Hubbard?)
Ellen
Serena Nordstrup
Tex wrote:
<snip>
> I could find 10 or 20 participants from any Landmark event and tilt a
> documentary to any way of my choosing. It would be easier to find the ones
> who liked it though, since they out number the ones who didn't like it by
> about ten to one.
Really? On what do you base this outnumbering estimate, Tex?
Sophomorically
Serena
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159524815....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Oh no!!!
The ex-Scientologist had an opinion that it sounded just like
something ----- she was involved in.
What a surprise.
The production quality of the piece was like a high school project.
Ellen, if you weren't so anxious to have your point of view confirmed, you'd
see this as the second-rate smear job it was.
>
>
> Ellen
>
Tex
"Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1159531908.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The people I've met over the years that have taken their programs.
Oh, and this!!!! {:-D
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116&siteObjectID=114
Internationally recognized social scientist, Daniel Yankelovich surveyed
more than 1300 people who completed The Landmark Forum during a three-month
period. Prior to their Landmark Forum, people were asked what they expected
to achieve in the course; after The Landmark Forum, they were asked about
the benefits they actually received.
Summary
Four areas were explored: the value of The Landmark Forum, the profile of
participants, satisfaction levels after The Landmark Forum, and unexpected
benefits that were experienced. A few of the findings include:
a.. More than 90% of participants report practical and enduring value for
their life - well worth the time and cost.
b.. More than 90% of participants report a better understanding of
relationships and their role in them.
c.. Nearly every participant received unexpected benefits - ranging from
the ability to control weight to achieving personal and professional goals.
Conclusion
"Several of the study's findings surprised me quite a bit, especially the
large number of participants for whom The Landmark Forum proved to be 'one
of the most valued experiences of my life.' This is not a sentiment that
people, particularly successful, well-educated people, express lightly. I
can understand why people recommend The Landmark Forum to their associates,
friends, and relatives."
Daniel Yankelovich, Chairman
DYG, Inc. (public opinion analyst)
>
> Sophomorically
> Serena
>
elle...@hotmail.com
Tex wrote:
> I could find 10 or 20 participants from any Landmark event and tilt a
> documentary to any way of my choosing. It would be easier to find the ones
> who liked it though, since they out number the ones who didn't like it by
> about ten to one.
Yes you could.
I love it! Let Landmarkers speak in public. They are their own worst
advertisement.
No one with two clues would touch this stuff if they could hear the
silly blather beforehand.
Ellen
Eldon
I'll bet Landmark has some video archives of Darren Mack in action --
possibly as examples of an exemplary trainer, or taped as feedback so
he could watch himself in action before a crowd and perfect his abuse
of individual participants.
Or maybe they shredded them, just in case a mole might smuggle a copy
to 60 Minutes ;-)
Caligari
> This video take you inside Landmark Forum with
> a hidden camera so you can see what they do to you
> while you have rested and have time to think ..
> something you are not allowed in the Forum
>
> Show your friends now so they can know it
> when someone tries to make them go
>
> 6 parts:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUdYhvzGTA
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWejJeMLKpg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2hI0U8C24
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwA_dK23XE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_NU0SuWMI
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra2Cw_zhITI
>
> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> Landmark left France!
These are excellent developments. The move with technology and
particularly the internet is openness and transparency. This tends to
effect all organizations. With releases like this, the landmark reform
group, etc. the environment becomes inhospitable to the secretive and
manipulative LE practices.
-- Enric
elle...@hotmail.com
Eldon wrote:
> I'll bet Landmark has some video archives of Darren Mack in action --
> possibly as examples of an exemplary trainer, or taped as feedback so
> he could watch himself in action before a crowd and perfect his abuse
> of individual participants.
>
> Or maybe they shredded them, just in case a mole might smuggle a copy
> to 60 Minutes ;-)
Honestly....
I am just appalled at the stupidity of this whole thing. Watching
these clips has given me an even worse impression of the Landmark
schtick, if that's possible. I thought they were slick but this is
soooooo bizarre and rankly amateur and creepily psycho-sick. They
can't possible attract anyone with any sophistication whatsoever these
days. I imagine their typical customer is like the poor lady who
didn't have a clue and was "in love" or "in thrall" with the puppeteer,
Alain Roth. I can't imagine anyone with any basic education or
instinct to decency thinking this stuff is OK - the very idea of
suggesting "cancer" or some other such self-defeating impulse to
someone in a vulnerable position is just plain sick and bordering on
sadistic. These jerks know all about the power of suggestion and they
are cruelly playing with people to increase their own control and line
their pockets. They should be run out of all the countries where they
operate the same way they were run out of France - not legislated out
of existence, just exposed.
Ellen
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159538683.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tex wrote:
>
>> I could find 10 or 20 participants from any Landmark event and tilt a
>> documentary to any way of my choosing. It would be easier to find the
>> ones
>> who liked it though, since they out number the ones who didn't like it by
>> about ten to one.
>
>
>
> Yes you could.
>
> I love it! Let Landmarkers speak in public. They are their own worst
> advertisement.
This is true.
>
> No one with two clues would touch this stuff if they could hear the silly
> blather beforehand.
This is also true.
But yet, if you here it in context, there is value in the "silly blather."
Have you ever read Ram Daas, Alan Watts, Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle?
I found there work and est to be similar.
>
>
>
> Ellen
>
patrick_darcy
> This video take you inside Landmark Forum with
> a hidden camera so you can see what they do to you
> while you have rested and have time to think ..
> something you are not allowed in the Forum
>
> Show your friends now so they can know it
> when someone tries to make them go
>
> 6 parts:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUdYhvzGTA
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWejJeMLKpg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2hI0U8C24
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwA_dK23XE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_NU0SuWMI
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra2Cw_zhITI
>
> This is the video, with English subtitles,
> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> Landmark left France!
well i went u utube and attempted to sign up.
my name patrickdarcy is already taken hmmmm.
be back later
Serena Nordstrup
Tex wrote:
> "Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:1159531908.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Tex wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I could find 10 or 20 participants from any Landmark event and tilt a
> >> documentary to any way of my choosing. It would be easier to find the
> >> ones
> >> who liked it though, since they out number the ones who didn't like it by
> >> about ten to one.
> >
> > Really? On what do you base this outnumbering estimate, Tex?
>
> The people I've met over the years that have taken their programs.
I can't tell whether the people you meet form a good sample or not: I
can't accept this sort of hearsay as evidence.
Oh, *that* survey, in the reporting of which the ~landmark~ website
promises "the full ... study" and then fails to tell us how the survey
selected its participants or controlled for error or bias...
But even if we were to accept the DYG study as having some degree of
validity, despite the lack of reported methodology... it still tells us
nothing about whether the surveyed participants "liked" the event they
attended (to return to the terminology of your original claim). They
may have detected unexpected benefits, found that ~landmark~ met their
expectations, and even decided that participating counted as a "valued
experience". But nothing about liking.
Have you any actual evidence for your claim that "the ones who liked
[any Landmark event]... outnumber the ones who didn't like it by about
ten to one".
Sophomorically
Serena
Tex
My own experience and Dan Yankelovich's above statement.
did you read it?
"Several of the study's findings surprised me quite a bit, especially the
large number of participants for whom The Landmark Forum proved to be 'one
of the most valued experiences of my life.' This is not a sentiment that
people, particularly successful, well-educated people, express lightly. I
can understand why people recommend The Landmark Forum to their associates,
friends, and relatives."
>
>
> Sophomorically
> Serena
>
Serena Nordstrup
Tex wrote:
> <elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159524815....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > jim_...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> Interesting piece. The two most 'disturbing' parts, for me, where the
> >> 'coaching' of the woman in the beginning and the little 'chat' with the
> >> volunteer in the bathroom.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Why did you put apostrophes around the word "disturbing?" Or
> > "coaching" or "chat" for that matter. You do this with a lot of words.
> > What is the reason?
> >
> > Just curious.
> >
> > (And weren't you just the tiniest bit disturbed by the ex-scientologist
> > who said it sounded just like L. Ron Hubbard?)
>
> Oh no!!!
> The ex-Scientologist had an opinion that it sounded just like
> something ----- she was involved in.
> What a surprise.
> The production quality of the piece was like a high school project.
The production quality of the piece sufficed for broadcast in France --
to the sophisticated and well-educated French who happen to have seen
the back of the departing Landmarkers.
Which specific aspects of the production quality of "Voyage au pays des
nouveaux gourous" reminded you of high-school projects, Tex? Did you
disagree with the content of those parts?
Sophomorically
Serena
Markus Welch
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159551801....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
"Not legislated out of existence, just exposed."
I still like that idea, alot. Imagine that?? :)
Maybe also tarred and feathered. One can hope, right?
-MarkusW
Serena Nordstrup
I posted my reasons for rejecting your own ~experience~ and the DYG
survey in this matter inline above. No doubt you have read those
reasons -- casting doubt on the representativeness and pointing out the
irrelevance.
I repeat: Have you any actual evidence for your claim that "the
[Landmark participants] who liked
[any Landmark event]... outnumber the ones who didn't like it by about
ten to one"?
Sophomorically
Serena
Tex
Tons.
If you come to Boston I'll introduce you to them.
>
> Sophomorically
> Serena
>
HAPPYsamurai
> My own experience and Dan Yankelovich's above statement.
> did you read it?
>
> "Several of the study's findings surprised me quite a bit, especially the
> large number of participants for whom The Landmark Forum proved to be 'one
> of the most valued experiences of my life.' This is not a sentiment that
> people, particularly successful, well-educated people, express lightly. I
> can understand why people recommend The Landmark Forum to their associates,
> friends, and relatives."
so now an excercise in circular logic and self justification
1 LM helps people like Tex
2 LM fucks some people up
3 LM is a global phenomena
answer get rid of all the people in the world who aren't like Tex --
see no cognative disonance any more
HAPPYsamurai
> Tons.
> If you come to Boston I'll introduce you to them.
perhaps there is something in the Boston mindset that
1 makes them receptive
or
2 the Boston Biz scene is receptive to LM way of doing things
remember when japan and the US started doing business
the japanese needed time to get used to the US way of doing business?
japan was based on filiel piety so loyalty was big issue [long term
strategy]
where as US biz was loyal to the dollar [short term strategy]
clash of mind sets
maybe WERNER resonates to Boston logic
that's why the rest of us just don't get it -- we don't worship your
god or his commandments, does that make us heretics or pagans in your
eyes
i guess if you don't worship money then a religion that helps sales
doesn't really resonate
still any tips on sales would be welcome for the sake of positive
interaction, I'm thinking of taking up golf too but don't normally seek
new forms of non bilateral excercise, still i could challenge myself to
learn with the oposite hand
Tex
"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1159738943.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Tex wrote:
>
>> Tons.
>> If you come to Boston I'll introduce you to them.
>
>
> perhaps there is something in the Boston mindset that
>
> 1 makes them receptive
> or
> 2 the Boston Biz scene is receptive to LM way of doing things
>
> remember when japan and the US started doing business
>
> the japanese needed time to get used to the US way of doing business?
>
> japan was based on filiel piety so loyalty was big issue [long term
> strategy]
>
> where as US biz was loyal to the dollar [short term strategy]
>
> clash of mind sets
>
> maybe WERNER resonates to Boston logic
Um--- no Hap, that just happens to be where I live.
And also where the people I know that did est or the Forum live.
>
> that's why the rest of us just don't get it -- we don't worship your
> god or his commandments, does that make us heretics or pagans in your eyes
Another strawman argument based on faulty logic.
I thought you had more smarts than that Hap.
What God and commandments are you talking about Hap?
astag...@yahoo.fr
http://www.archive.org/details/InsideLandmarkForum
HAPPYsamurai
> > that's why the rest of us just don't get it -- we don't worship your
> > god or his commandments, does that make us heretics or pagans in your eyes
>
how can one KNOW god
thru ones perception
therefore, one creates ones own god -- anthropomorphically
we ascribe attributes to this invisible creature
assuming birds of a feather flock together, so do those percieving
certian values to be of wieghty import [import~= by poetic license
spiritual, therefoer from a higher source]
to try and sell what I'm saying to the pagans out there
even if you have NO god, you still have the spiritual circuit, so
something else gets plugged in its place
for some its worship of money for some its worship of pamela anderson
as you agreed at an inner circle level LM is likely to be similar to a
religious group just due to the workings of human nature
as one of the commandments said
have no other gods BEFORE me
in other words it is likely that a human will worship MANY gods
I'm not saying you have deified Werner, but you would agree that some
do, therefore for those that do diefy werner, how do they PERCIEVE
those that don't
one could also say that for some japanese filial piety can have an
almost religious significance in fact it actually does for man in the
form of ancestor worship... again in the 10 coms we have Honor thy
mother and father
the question is .... what does a given person put their faith in
some put their faith int their bank account some in their family some
in wernertech some in an invisible god
when two people of different faiths interact what are the possible
outcomes?
to return to my previous point
what was it in the previous faith circuits that allowed bostonians to
be more receptive to werner than non bostonians?
sure it may not be relevant
but as holmes said remove the impossible first
HAPPYsamurai
> > maybe WERNER resonates to Boston logic
>
> Um--- no Hap, that just happens to be where I live.
> And also where the people I know that did est or the Forum live.
>
so why aren't there any where I live?
LM came here, people tried it and then found it wasn't for them
i don't see the comparison between Boston and where I am as flawed
logic
why did people in the north resonate to abe lincoln and people in the
south not [generalising of course]
the key question is why are some people more receptive to werners brand
of wisdom than others and can we learn anything from the observation
why is that flawed logic
Tex
Happy, it appears you are a bit too "happy" today.
Reminds me of a song........
{:-D
Lyrics: Lawrence Wagner
Music: Elliot Ingber
Played by Little Feat's Paul Barrere and Bill Payne with Phil & Friends. The
original verson (on the soundtrack of "Easy Rider") was by Fraternity Of
Man. It was subsequently covered by Little Feat.
Chorus
Don't bogart that joint my friend
Pass it over to me
Don't bogart that joint my friend
Pass it over to me
Roll another one
Just like the other one
You've been holding on to it
And I sure will like a hit
[chorus]
Roll another one
Just like the other one
That one's burned to the end
Come on and be a real friend
[chorus]
Recordings
1969? Easy Rider (Soundtrack)
1988 The Last Record Album (Little Feat)
"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1159748157.9...@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Tex
> Tex wrote:
>
>> > maybe WERNER resonates to Boston logic
>>
>> Um--- no Hap, that just happens to be where I live.
>> And also where the people I know that did est or the Forum live.
>>
>
> so why aren't there any where I live?
Australia?????
Perhaps you remember Bruno?
He's posting from the same newgroup server as you.
Are you aware of where you live?
Brisbane, Australia
Landmark Education
Level 2, 235 Pyrmont St
Brisbane, 2009
Australia
61-2-9692-9011
61-2-9692-9500 (fax)
OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
OrgID: APNIC
Address: PO Box 2131
City: Milton
StateProv: QLD
PostalCode: 4064
Country: AU
There was also a guy named Gerald and Blueboy who were Aussies, or
transplants to Oz.
I'll bet Bruno can introduce you to many people in Oz that had positive
experiences with Landmark.
Serena Nordstrup
Thanks for the offer. Or you could parade your tons of evidence here --
more convenient for non-Bostonians, and much more widespread and
effective.
> > Sophomorically
> > Serena
Tex
You'll have to come meet them. Although I'm sure you have met plenty of
"fans" yourself, hence your disdain for Landmark. {:-D
>> > Sophomorically
>> > Serena
>
Eldon
> >
> > astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
> >
> >> This is the video, with English subtitles,
> >> that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> >> Landmark left France!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Notice how many times the word "abuse" was used by participants? And
> > not only for themselves but the abuse they witnessed towards others.
> > Wait, wait....don't tell me....YOU didn't ~experience~ any abuse so
> > these fools must have had something wrong with their perceptions, their
> > perspectives, their ~interpretations.~
> >
> > Gee, the French reporters had no trouble making the cult or the
> > scientology or the abuse connection.
>
> Do you think these french "reporters" have the same type of credentials as
> Chris Wallace of Fox News.
OMG. This France 3 show is equivalent to 60 Minutes or 20/20 in France,
which is roughly 1/5 the size of the US, with a huge national
viewership. In fact, I would say the editing and commentary are the
equivalent of what you see on American network or BBC news magazine
shows. One slight difference is that in France, even if footage was not
taken with a hidden shirtpocket camera, you legally have to get the
person's permission to identify them -- even if they are taped on a
public sidewalk. The reason they didn't doctor the image of the head
Landmark guy and disguise his idenitty was that they were daring him to
sue them as an individual for defamation. They wanted to rile him...or
should I say abuse him? Hmmm.
The abuse or "verbal violence" angle certainly freaked out the public
and alerted companies that might send employees for Landmark's brand of
training. But as I said earlier, the volunteer labor bit was the legal
lever that made them decide to pull out of the country. I believe it
sparked an investigation they didn't want to fight in court.
That said, they did interview some people who "got it" and said their
attitudes and relationships had improved -- anecdotes similar to Tex's
ongoing testimonial.
> Ellen, you are attacking "windmills."
> >
> > Appalling and disgusting how these idiots use (un)sophisticated,
> > intrusive pyschological techniques on the unwitting and uninformed. I
> > don't know how they sleep at night except for the obvious fact that
> > they're sociopaths and have no feelings of shame or guilt at harming or
> > exploiting others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ellen
> >
Tex
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159815199....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Cite some of that on going "testimonial" I've presented here Eldon.
My dislike of the graduate seminars?
Or perhaps my disillusionment with est as a result of my GSLP experience?
My luke-warm experience of Werner's Satellite Forum series?
Serena Nordstrup
I find your conditions ~unreasonable~ and restrictive, and therefore
conclude that you do *not* have good generic evidence for your claim
that "the [Landmark participants] who liked [any Landmark event]...
outnumber the ones who didn't like it by about ten to one".
bruno Tonon
You don't have to go to Boston all you have to do is come down to
Melbourne.
Although I haven't been around to the Melbourne centre for quiet some time
I am sure I could introduce you to many happy participants.
I would be happy to do so if you are interested??
cheers bruno
"Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1159859410.7...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tex
I have a feeling she knows a couple of grads, or at least one that has
annoyed the crap out of her.
Bruno, other than here on this newsgroup, do you know any disgruntled
Landmark/est participants that thought it did them more harm than good?
I don't. In the old days in est we broke up into groups of 10 or 12 and
people talked about waht they learned, thought about the est Training. Only
one guy thought it was a waste of time, that it sucked. My guess is his wife
sent him! {;-D
Cheers,
Tex
"bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:452234c8$0$2914$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
> Hi Serena,
>
> You don't have to go to Boston all you have to do is come down to
> Melbourne.
> Although I haven't been around to the Melbourne centre for quiet some time
> I am sure I could introduce you to many happy participants.
> I would be happy to do so if you are interested??
>
> cheers bruno
Similar problem, Bruno. I shouldn't have to travel anywhere if you or
Tex can provide good evidence, rather than relying on a the expressed
opinions of a given set of aquaintances in a specific social milieu.
Can *you* prove Tex's claim that "the [Landmark participants] who liked
[any Landmark event]...
outnumber the ones who didn't like it by about ten to one"? Without
falling back on unrepresentative local opinions and testimonials?
Eldon
This happens first in places where there aren't so many societal
"degrees of separation." In other words, fairly coherent societies like
Sweden and France. Scientology is about to be ostracized and kicked out
of Belgium. Stay tuned for the domino effect.
> -MarkusW
bruno Tonon
No I can't.
I can only rely on what I saw, felt and experienced talking to
lots of the participants that I met during my time assisting, and my time
during the Forum workshop I attended.
I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of the
quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
Please tell me about it???
What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base this????
Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your so
secure
point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see things
from my perspective
and feel what I experienced.
Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
my wife and family.
I'm certainly grateful for that!
cheers Bruno
>
bruno Tonon
"Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:XL-dnVpX3akz-7_Y...@adelphia.com...
> Hi Bruno,
>
> I have a feeling she knows a couple of grads, or at least one that has
> annoyed the crap out of her.
> Bruno, other than here on this newsgroup, do you know any disgruntled
> Landmark/est participants that thought it did them more harm than good?
No I don't.
I certainly was bowled over by the negativity of this group of Ranters,
however
I have learnt lots, and I do enjoy their company even though I don't fully
understand their position or hurt when it comes to Landmark.
cheers Bruno
Eldon
> "Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:XL-dnVpX3akz-7_Y...@adelphia.com...
> > Hi Bruno,
> >
> > I have a feeling she knows a couple of grads, or at least one that has
> > annoyed the crap out of her.
> > Bruno, other than here on this newsgroup, do you know any disgruntled
> > Landmark/est participants that thought it did them more harm than good?
>
>
> No I don't.
>
> I certainly was bowled over by the negativity of this group of Ranters,
> however
> I have learnt lots, and I do enjoy their company even though I don't fully
> understand their position or hurt when it comes to Landmark.
Bruno,
It doesn't necessariy have to do with direct ~experience~ of Landmark,
but with disgust at how certain cults purposely bend people's minds to
suit their purposes.
Moon's Unification Church, Scientology, Opus Dei, the JW's, Landmark,
Avatar... take your pick. I'm ecumenical. I think they all suck,
dangerously.
Tex
> bruno Tonon wrote:
>> "Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:XL-dnVpX3akz-7_Y...@adelphia.com...
>> > Hi Bruno,
>> >
>> > I have a feeling she knows a couple of grads, or at least one that has
>> > annoyed the crap out of her.
>> > Bruno, other than here on this newsgroup, do you know any disgruntled
>> > Landmark/est participants that thought it did them more harm than good?
>>
>>
>> No I don't.
>>
>> I certainly was bowled over by the negativity of this group of Ranters,
>> however
>> I have learnt lots, and I do enjoy their company even though I don't
>> fully
>> understand their position or hurt when it comes to Landmark.
>
> Bruno,
>
> It doesn't necessariy have to do with direct ~experience~ of Landmark,
> but with disgust at how certain cults purposely bend people's minds to
> suit their purposes.
>
> Moon's Unification Church, Scientology, Opus Dei, the JW's, Landmark,
> Avatar... take your pick. I'm ecumenical. I think they all suck,
> dangerously.
We have more in common than you know Eldon.
I think they suck too, for the most part.
Then again, much of my perception of these groups is second-hand knowledge
based on things I've heard or read.
I've met a few people from each of the cults you've mention above.
The only one I have direct experience with, both positive and negative, is
Landmark/est.
Although I think some of the shit at Landmark is wacky or manipulative and
that some people drink way too much of their "Koolaid," or as one guy called
it, Kookaid, I did feel I got fair value for the price of the seminar called
est. The Graduate Seminars were not that good. GSLP was an eye opener, a
peek into the organization. That's when I said "see ya."
Eldon
Maybe as an ethical being, you should have said "FUCK YA!" ... but that
only involves your personal values.
So live with your decisions. And watch the results of those various
cults being exposed. None of them can withstand the light of public
scrutiny. They were all founded by creatures who live and squirm under
rocks.
Tex
Come on Eldon, the Catholic Church and it's offspring have survived "the
light of public scrutiny" for 2,000 years.
Islam is spreading faster than any other world religion.
"Reverend" Sun Myung Moon is thriving and richer than God.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/unification/main.htm
One person's religion is another person's cult.
I don't think "public scrutiny" has made much of an impact.
HAPPYsamurai
> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> my wife and family.
> I'm certainly grateful for that!
>
and who would want to take that away from you
bottom line
people are different
excercise
how could bruno have achieved the same level of success in his
relationships WITHOUT wernertech?
Serena Nordstrup
What a shame -- Tex could surely do with some concrete support for his
claim.
> I can only rely on what I saw, felt and experienced talking to
> lots of the participants that I met during my time assisting, and my time
> during the Forum workshop I attended.
Rubbish. You can research and explore the wider picture just like
anybody else. Open your mind, Bruno! Look at the reports; survey the
citizens of Tristan da Cunha. Don't just rely on the limited world of
your personal circumstances and on the spin and milieu kindly provided
by ~landmark~ ~education~.
> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of the
> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
I seek such?
> Please tell me about it???
>
> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base this????
I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your so
> secure
> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see things
> from my perspective
> and feel what I experienced.
We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
>
> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> my wife and family.
Good on yer, mate!
At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
bruno Tonon
I have never claimed that wernertech was the only way to go
and yes I may have achieved my life quality via a different
approach.
The reality for me is that it was the wernertech that I gained benefit
from.
Thats all I am suggesting.
cheers Bruno
>
bruno Tonon
Nawh, too lazy. Can't see much use because I'm not claiming much and
I'm not out to prove anything. I accept your position, I just don't
understand
where you are coming from. Thats the frustrating part for me.
You seem to hide in a box .
On another note?
And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
Have you done any primary research or does all your information
come from secondary sources???
Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
>
>> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of the
>> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
>
> I seek such?
No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are cheap.
>
>> Please tell me about it???
>>
>> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
>> this????
>
> I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
>
>> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your so
>> secure
>> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see things
>> from my perspective
>> and feel what I experienced.
>
> We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
> possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
from a different perspective.
>
>> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
>>
>> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
>> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
>> my wife and family.
>
> Good on yer, mate!
>
> At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
all round.
You sound very cynical about relationships. Are you having some
difficulties ?
I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
quality time in my relationships.
cheers bruno
Serena Nordstrup
So what? You *can* do more than recycle you ~experiences~ and your
contacts. Drool over those ~possibilities!
> Can't see much use because I'm not claiming much and
> I'm not out to prove anything. I accept your position, I just don't
> understand
> where you are coming from. Thats the frustrating part for me.
Millions of people live in Central Asia, Bruno -- do you understand (or
care) where they "come from" ?
> You seem to hide in a box .
Green, with scarlet runes.
> On another note?
> And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
> come from secondary sources???
> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left on
the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
> >> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of the
> >> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
> >
> > I seek such?
>
> No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
> little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are cheap.
You might like to team up with Tex -- he too does a good job at
~creating~ little fictions about me.
-- Personally, I glory in the cheapness (and clout) of words.
> >> Please tell me about it???
> >>
> >> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
> >> this????
> >
> > I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
> >
> >> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your so
> >> secure
> >> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see things
> >> from my perspective
> >> and feel what I experienced.
> >
> > We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
> > possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
>
>
> I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
> from a different perspective.
No -- you speculated on my seeing things from *your* perspective -- not
just any different perspective. Your words give you away.
> >> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
> >>
> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> >> my wife and family.
> >
> > Good on yer, mate!
> >
> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
>
>
> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
> all round.
Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
> You sound very cynical about relationships.
Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
-- not about relationships.
> Are you having some difficulties ?
Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
Quite. Quite irrelevant.
> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
> quality time in my relationships.
Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
bruno Tonon
Allways keep your distance. You are not from the country are you????
>
>> You seem to hide in a box .
>
> Green, with scarlet runes.
>
>> On another note?
>> And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
>> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
>> come from secondary sources???
>> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
>
> Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
> assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left on
> the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
in vomit, well thats your choice?
Ever thought of assisting????
>
>> >> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of
>> >> the
>> >> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
>> >
>> > I seek such?
>>
>> No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
>> little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are cheap.
>
> You might like to team up with Tex -- he too does a good job at
> ~creating~ little fictions about me.
> -- Personally, I glory in the cheapness (and clout) of words.
Fine but remember life is also meant for living , being in touch
with yourself and your emotions, and bathing in that experience.
Words never give you the real thing.
>
>> >> Please tell me about it???
>> >>
>> >> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
>> >> this????
>> >
>> > I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
>> >
>> >> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your
>> >> so
>> >> secure
>> >> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see
>> >> things
>> >> from my perspective
>> >> and feel what I experienced.
>> >
>> > We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
>> > possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
>>
>>
>> I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
>> from a different perspective.
>
> No -- you speculated on my seeing things from *your* perspective -- not
> just any different perspective. Your words give you away.
That may be so, however I don't hold that its the only view.
Think of Plato's story of the man in the cave who ventures
past the shadows and comes back to tell about what he saw?
I don't pretend to have that courage but it makes a fair analogy.
Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
>> >>
>> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
>> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
>> >> my wife and family.
>> >
>> > Good on yer, mate!
>> >
>> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
>>
>>
>> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
>> all round.
>
> Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
>
>> You sound very cynical about relationships.
>
> Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
> I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
> -- not about relationships.
The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
>
>> Are you having some difficulties ?
>
> Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
has difficulties in giving straight questions.
Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
>
>> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
>> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
>
> Quite. Quite irrelevant.
Fine.
>
>> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
>> quality time in my relationships.
>
> Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
No Werner. Never met the guy but wouldn't mind seeing him
in action so as I can evaluate his Toastmaster skills.
I do enjoy a good presentation.
Serena Nordstrup
Which country?
Millions of people live in Central Asia, Bruno -- do you understand (or
care) where they "come from" ?
> >> You seem to hide in a box .
> >
> > Green, with scarlet runes.
> >
> >> On another note?
> >> And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
> >> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
> >> come from secondary sources???
> >> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
> >
> > Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
> > assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left on
> > the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
>
> Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
> in vomit, well thats your choice?
One xan ignore what one finds, or not.
> Ever thought of assisting????
No. Why do you ask?
Ever thought of running the show?
> >> >> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of
> >> >> the
> >> >> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
> >> >
> >> > I seek such?
> >>
> >> No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
> >> little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are cheap.
> >
> > You might like to team up with Tex -- he too does a good job at
> > ~creating~ little fictions about me.
> > -- Personally, I glory in the cheapness (and clout) of words.
>
>
> Fine but remember life is also meant for living , being in touch
> with yourself and your emotions, and bathing in that experience.
Says who?
> Words never give you the real thing.
Never?
> >> >> Please tell me about it???
> >> >>
> >> >> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
> >> >> this????
> >> >
> >> > I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
> >> >
> >> >> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving your
> >> >> so
> >> >> secure
> >> >> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see
> >> >> things
> >> >> from my perspective
> >> >> and feel what I experienced.
> >> >
> >> > We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
> >> > possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
> >>
> >>
> >> I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
> >> from a different perspective.
> >
> > No -- you speculated on my seeing things from *your* perspective -- not
> > just any different perspective. Your words give you away.
>
> That may be so, however I don't hold that its the only view.
Well done!
How many views will you permit me to play with?
> Think of Plato's story of the man in the cave who ventures
> past the shadows and comes back to tell about what he saw?
> I don't pretend to have that courage but it makes a fair analogy.
>
>
>
> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
> >> >>
> >> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> >> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> >> >> my wife and family.
> >> >
> >> > Good on yer, mate!
> >> >
> >> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
> >>
> >>
> >> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
> >> all round.
> >
> > Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
> >
> >> You sound very cynical about relationships.
> >
> > Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
> > I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
> > -- not about relationships.
>
> The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
> and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
Says who? And why would you believe this?
> >> Are you having some difficulties ?
> >
> > Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
>
> Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
> has difficulties in giving straight questions.
> Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
> its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
I never took the time to learn how to type emoticons.
> >> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
> >> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
> >
> > Quite. Quite irrelevant.
>
> Fine.
> >
> >> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
> >> quality time in my relationships.
> >
> > Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
>
> No Werner. Never met the guy but wouldn't mind seeing him
> in action so as I can evaluate his Toastmaster skills.
> I do enjoy a good presentation.
Why then not credit the local engineer?
bruno Tonon
A country girl maybe???? Wasp country
>
> Millions of people live in Central Asia, Bruno -- do you understand (or
> care) where they "come from" ?
Yes I would if I was having these type of discussions. I would look at their
culture
and values and try to understand them on a personal level.
We are dealing with live animate beings and not rocks or wooden planks????
It certainly would help to liven the conversation and also possibly to
understand
different viewpoints.
>
>> >> You seem to hide in a box .
>> >
>> > Green, with scarlet runes.
>> >
>> >> On another note?
>> >> And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
>> >> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
>> >> come from secondary sources???
>> >> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
>> >
>> > Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
>> > assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left on
>> > the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
>>
>> Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
>> in vomit, well thats your choice?
>
> One xan ignore what one finds, or not.
>
>> Ever thought of assisting????
>
> No. Why do you ask?
Well that would get you in to the bowels of the monster so as you could
get primary research without being involved or being part of the show.
You could observe and report back what you discovered.
>
> Ever thought of running the show?
Yes when I first did Forum. I soon realised though that could not walk the
talk or sacrifice myself for the work and so gave up the idea.
I also did not think I had the confidence and skill to hold an audience's
attention for 8 hrs whilst reading from a workbook??
>
>> >> >> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
>> >> >
>> >> > I seek such?
>> >>
>> >> No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
>> >> little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are
>> >> cheap.
>> >
>> > You might like to team up with Tex -- he too does a good job at
>> > ~creating~ little fictions about me.
>> > -- Personally, I glory in the cheapness (and clout) of words.
>>
>>
>> Fine but remember life is also meant for living , being in touch
>> with yourself and your emotions, and bathing in that experience.
>
> Says who?
Well would you rather read about making love to your ideal partner
or would you prefer doing it, with all the 5senses bathing in that
experience.?????????
>
>> Words never give you the real thing.
>
> Never?
>
>> >> >> Please tell me about it???
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
>> >> >> this????
>> >> >
>> >> > I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> secure
>> >> >> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see
>> >> >> things
>> >> >> from my perspective
>> >> >> and feel what I experienced.
>> >> >
>> >> > We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
>> >> > possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
>> >> from a different perspective.
>> >
>> > No -- you speculated on my seeing things from *your* perspective -- not
>> > just any different perspective. Your words give you away.
>>
>> That may be so, however I don't hold that its the only view.
>
> Well done!
>
> How many views will you permit me to play with?
I don't control how many views you wish to play with.
Thats your choice
>
>> Think of Plato's story of the man in the cave who ventures
>> past the shadows and comes back to tell about what he saw?
>> I don't pretend to have that courage but it makes a fair analogy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
>> >> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
>> >> >> my wife and family.
>> >> >
>> >> > Good on yer, mate!
>> >> >
>> >> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
>> >> all round.
>> >
>> > Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
>> >
>> >> You sound very cynical about relationships.
>> >
>> > Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
>> > I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
>> > -- not about relationships.
>>
>> The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
>> and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Says who? And why would you believe this?
Because thats the area where I saw an improvement in my life.
>
>> >> Are you having some difficulties ?
>> >
>> > Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
>>
>> Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
>> has difficulties in giving straight questions.
>> Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
>> its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
>
> I never took the time to learn how to type emoticons.
Fine thats your choice
>
>> >> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
>> >> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
>> >
>> > Quite. Quite irrelevant.
>>
>> Fine.
>> >
>> >> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
>> >> quality time in my relationships.
>> >
>> > Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
>>
>> No Werner. Never met the guy but wouldn't mind seeing him
>> in action so as I can evaluate his Toastmaster skills.
>> I do enjoy a good presentation.
>
> Why then not credit the local engineer?
I would have thought you would approve of seeing werner plying his
trade because that would place you in a box situation to observe and
report from first hand knowledge all the beliefs you presently carry.
It also may make you a more credible witness because with your
questioning skills and your scientific approach you would be able
to explain to all of us the smoke and mirror presentations.
You are not anxious that he may hypnotise you are you??????
Funny that!!!!!!
Serena Nordstrup
<snip>
I'll take that as a "no" -- you neither understand nor care where the
people of Central Asia come from.
> >> >> You seem to hide in a box .
> >> >
> >> > Green, with scarlet runes.
> >> >
> >> >> On another note?
> >> >> And what have you done to explore, research and open your mind??????
> >> >> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
> >> >> come from secondary sources???
> >> >> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
> >> >
> >> > Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
> >> > assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left on
> >> > the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
> >>
> >> Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
> >> in vomit, well thats your choice?
> >
> > One xan ignore what one finds, or not.
> >
> >> Ever thought of assisting????
> >
> > No. Why do you ask?
>
> Well that would get you in to the bowels of the monster so as you could
> get primary research without being involved or being part of the show.
Pray explain how one does ~assisting~ without involvement.
> You could observe and report back what you discovered.
> >
> > Ever thought of running the show?
>
> Yes when I first did Forum. I soon realised though that could not walk the
> talk or sacrifice myself for the work and so gave up the idea.
> I also did not think I had the confidence and skill to hold an audience's
> attention for 8 hrs whilst reading from a workbook??
Other methods, other shows.
> >> >> >> I could also ask the same question ?. Can you provide evidence of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> quality that you are seeking of how Est/Landmark is harmful.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I seek such?
> >> >>
> >> >> No you seek nothing. You just want to be comfortable in your own
> >> >> little box to criticise as you see fit forgetting that words are
> >> >> cheap.
> >> >
> >> > You might like to team up with Tex -- he too does a good job at
> >> > ~creating~ little fictions about me.
> >> > -- Personally, I glory in the cheapness (and clout) of words.
> >>
> >>
> >> Fine but remember life is also meant for living , being in touch
> >> with yourself and your emotions, and bathing in that experience.
> >
> > Says who?
>
>
> Well would you rather read about making love to your ideal partner
> or would you prefer doing it, with all the 5senses bathing in that
> experience.?????????
You haven't answered the question. I'll repeat it: who says that ~life~
has the purpose of living, of contacting oneself, of contacting one's
emotions, and of bathing in the ~expeience ~ of carrying out the
foregoing?
> >> Words never give you the real thing.
> >
> > Never?
Never ever?
> >> >> >> Please tell me about it???
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What is the ratio you are claiming and on what evidence do you base
> >> >> >> this????
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I make no ratio-claims, but merely question Tex's ratio-claims.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Pity you don't like travelling or being adventurous and leaving
> >> >> >> your
> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> secure
> >> >> >> point of view to maybe just stand for a few brief moments to see
> >> >> >> things
> >> >> >> from my perspective
> >> >> >> and feel what I experienced.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We differ, Bruno. Hey, we even have different names! How could I
> >> >> > possibly feel the same thing that you recall ~experiencing~?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not asking you to be me, just asking you to look at the world
> >> >> from a different perspective.
> >> >
> >> > No -- you speculated on my seeing things from *your* perspective -- not
> >> > just any different perspective. Your words give you away.
> >>
> >> That may be so, however I don't hold that its the only view.
> >
> > Well done!
> >
> > How many views will you permit me to play with?
>
>
> I don't control how many views you wish to play with.
> Thats your choice
You haven't answered the question. Again: how many views will you
permit me to play with?
> >> Think of Plato's story of the man in the cave who ventures
> >> past the shadows and comes back to tell about what he saw?
> >> I don't pretend to have that courage but it makes a fair analogy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> >> >> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> >> >> >> my wife and family.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Good on yer, mate!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win situation
> >> >> all round.
> >> >
> >> > Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
> >> >
> >> >> You sound very cynical about relationships.
> >> >
> >> > Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
> >> > I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
> >> > -- not about relationships.
> >>
> >> The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
> >> and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Says who?
You haven't answered the question. Who says that "it" (whatever you
mean by "it" ) ~is~ all about relationships?
> > And why would you believe this?
>
> Because thats the area where I saw an improvement in my life.
And you extrapolated from that to form a universal principle about "it"
and about other quite different relationships?
> >> >> Are you having some difficulties ?
> >> >
> >> > Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
> >>
> >> Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
> >> has difficulties in giving straight questions.
> >> Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
> >> its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
> >
> > I never took the time to learn how to type emoticons.
>
>
> Fine thats your choice
>
>
> >
> >> >> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
> >> >> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
> >> >
> >> > Quite. Quite irrelevant.
> >>
> >> Fine.
> >> >
> >> >> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
> >> >> quality time in my relationships.
> >> >
> >> > Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
> >>
> >> No Werner. Never met the guy but wouldn't mind seeing him
> >> in action so as I can evaluate his Toastmaster skills.
> >> I do enjoy a good presentation.
> >
> > Why then not credit the local engineer?
>
> I would have thought you would approve of seeing werner plying his
> trade
You haven 't answered the question. I'll ask again: why do you not
credit the local engineer for bringing "more quality time in [your]
relationships"?
> because that would place you in a box situation to observe and
> report from first hand knowledge all the beliefs you presently carry.
> It also may make you a more credible witness because with your
> questioning skills and your scientific approach you would be able
> to explain to all of us the smoke and mirror presentations.
>
> You are not anxious that he may hypnotise you are you??????
There you go again: attempting to make matters personal to me and thus
diveerting and trivializing the discussion.
> Funny that!!!!!!
HAPPYsamurai
> bruno Tonon wrote:
oooo harry P likes this one
> > >>
> > >> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
> > >> >> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
> > >> >> >> my wife and family.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Good on yer, mate!
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> You sound very cynical about relationships.
> > >> >
> > >> > Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil discussion? --
> > >> > I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your ~life~-quality
> > >> > -- not about relationships.
> > >>
> > >> The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
> > >> and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > Says who?
>
> You haven't answered the question. Who says that "it" (whatever you
> mean by "it" ) ~is~ all about relationships?
>
> > > And why would you believe this?
> >
> > Because thats the area where I saw an improvement in my life.
>
> And you extrapolated from that to form a universal principle about "it"
> and about other quite different relationships?
>
> > >> >> Are you having some difficulties ?
> > >> >
> > >> > Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
> > >>
> > >> Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
> > >> has difficulties in giving straight questions.
> > >> Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
> > >> its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
> > >
> >
> > >> >> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
> > >> >> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
we are all interested to observe
THIS relationship progress
where will it lead?
the possibilities oh the possibilities..........
not to mention the end of world hunger
HAPPYsamurai
> I have never claimed that wernertech was the only way to go
> and yes I may have achieved my life quality via a different
> approach.
> The reality for me is that it was the wernertech that I gained benefit
> from.
> Thats all I am suggesting.
>
> cheers Bruno
cheers to u
so sales up and greater quality* in relationships
perhaps tex's sales went up due to him increasing the quality of his
relationships with his customers?
i can hear violins ;-)
where's are resident negetive LM grad/
any comments on quality in relationship?
bruno Tonon
pls read the above answer. If I was having a similar discussion it would be
in my interest
to find out more about them. Now if you want to play around with words and
meanings fine.
Keep playing but don't expect much of an answer
>
>> >> >> You seem to hide in a box .
>> >> >
>> >> > Green, with scarlet runes.
>> >> >
>> >> >> On another note?
>> >> >> And what have you done to explore, research and open your
>> >> >> mind??????
>> >> >> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
>> >> >> come from secondary sources???
>> >> >> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
>> >> >
>> >> > Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
>> >> > assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left
>> >> > on
>> >> > the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
>> >>
>> >> Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
>> >> in vomit, well thats your choice?
>> >
>> > One xan ignore what one finds, or not.
>> >
>> >> Ever thought of assisting????
>> >
>> > No. Why do you ask?
>>
>> Well that would get you in to the bowels of the monster so as you could
>> get primary research without being involved or being part of the show.
>
> Pray explain how one does ~assisting~ without involvement.
Easily you carry out what ever duries you have been assigned and you keep a
watchful eye on what's going around you. You talk to people>
I said. Its common sense. Do you live in a cloister?????
>
>> >> Words never give you the real thing.
>> >
>> > Never?
>
> Never ever?
Not to my knowledge
And the point being???????
>
>> >> Think of Plato's story of the man in the cave who ventures
>> >> past the shadows and comes back to tell about what he saw?
>> >> I don't pretend to have that courage but it makes a fair analogy.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Who knows you may like it and then you may not????
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Can't say it solved what I was looking for but it did provide me
>> >> >> >> with a better life quality when it comes to relationships with
>> >> >> >> my wife and family.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Good on yer, mate!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > At whose expense did you better your ~life~-quality?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why should it be at anybodies expense. It could be a win win
>> >> >> situation
>> >> >> all round.
>> >> >
>> >> > Or not. More ~possibilities~ if not.
>> >> >
>> >> >> You sound very cynical about relationships.
>> >> >
>> >> > Why do you drag ~relationships~ into a perfectly civil
>> >> > iscussion? --
>> >> > I asked about those at whose expense you bettered your
>> >> > ~life~-quality
>> >> > -- not about relationships.
>> >>
>> >> The improvement in my life was better communications with my wife
>> >> and the rest of my family. Its all about relationships!!!!!!!!!!
>> >
>> > Says who?
>
> You haven't answered the question. Who says that "it" (whatever you
> mean by "it" ) ~is~ all about relationships?
Says me who else!!!!!
>
>> > And why would you believe this?
>>
>> Because thats the area where I saw an improvement in my life.
>
> And you extrapolated from that to form a universal principle about "it"
> and about other quite different relationships?
Yes I keep my life simple.
>
>> >> >> Are you having some difficulties ?
>> >> >
>> >> > Difficulties in getting Bruno Tonon to give straight answers.
>> >>
>> >> Thats interesting because I also feel that Simpatica Serena also has
>> >> has difficulties in giving straight questions.
>> >> Forum for me was an emotional confronting experience, thats where
>> >> its power is. You don't seem to have any emotions????
>> >
>> > I never took the time to learn how to type emoticons.
>>
>>
>> Fine thats your choice
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> >> I must say that I have been most fortunate with my relationships
>> >> >> to date. I certainly hope it stays that way.
>> >> >
>> >> > Quite. Quite irrelevant.
>> >>
>> >> Fine.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Again I'm grateful that wernertech has helped to bring more
>> >> >> quality time in my relationships.
>> >> >
>> >> > Do you credit ~werner~ -- or your local engineer?
>> >>
>> >> No Werner. Never met the guy but wouldn't mind seeing him
>> >> in action so as I can evaluate his Toastmaster skills.
>> >> I do enjoy a good presentation.
>> >
>> > Why then not credit the local engineer?
>>
>> I would have thought you would approve of seeing werner plying his
>> trade
>
> You haven 't answered the question. I'll ask again: why do you not
> credit the local engineer for bringing "more quality time in [your]
> relationships"?
Because we are not talking about the local engineer thats a given.
We are talking about your favourite technical communication engineer
Werner!!
>
>> because that would place you in a box situation to observe and
>> report from first hand knowledge all the beliefs you presently carry.
>> It also may make you a more credible witness because with your
>> questioning skills and your scientific approach you would be able
>> to explain to all of us the smoke and mirror presentations.
>>
>> You are not anxious that he may hypnotise you are you??????
>
> There you go again: attempting to make matters personal to me and thus
> diveerting and trivializing the discussion.
I thought I was adding to the conversation.
>
>> Funny that!!!!!!
>
bruno Tonon
Well at least he tried even though he may have had ulterior motives. Who
Knows??? Ellen????
Hey happy you were speaking about Ethics and how your profession was bound
by some
code of behaviour. what profession is that if I may ask?????
And have you done Forum or only heard about it second hand????
cheers
>
HAPPYsamurai
> Hey happy you were speaking about Ethics and how your profession was bound
> by some
> code of behaviour. what profession is that if I may ask?????
>
> And have you done Forum or only heard about it second hand????
>
> cheers
i like to keep my background in these areas to myself as a general rule
reason
the highest truths are beyond sects and language barriers
as i say
if you say your relationships improved... i am genuinely happy for
you... if someone else says they wasted a lot of money i am sad they
weren't more discerneing with their dollar
whether thru a secret society a caring uncle or aunt or a mentor --
people can grow
i don't like the way this process has been butchered by psuedo science
and sales hype
we do the integrity of the human race a disservice by letting bullshit
go by un-named
maybe I call for standards that are beyond what is humanly possible
it is also part of a students learning to be compassionate when he sees
the teachers feet are made of clay
sorry I digress bruno
tell me what insights you have in improving relationships
5 key points?
gourous2004
you can now go here for the file in question:
http://www.archive.org/details/Gourous
if it does not work at first, try refresh a few times
bottom left of screen, rightclick "cinepack"
after you download make sure to make multiple copies and it might be
good to distribute on internet servers and filesharing like torrent and
cd copies and such...because they will probably knock it down once the
brainwashed ppl wake up
gourous2004
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3537369/2003_Inside_Landmark_Forum.avi
after downloading the BITTORRENT client
then download the torrent, add it and get the AVI file
once you do that, you can "seed" and become part of your own little
network/server
patrick_darcy wrote:
> astag...@yahoo.fr wrote:
>
> > This video take you inside Landmark Forum with
> > a hidden camera so you can see what they do to you
> > while you have rested and have time to think ..
> > something you are not allowed in the Forum
> >
> > Show your friends now so they can know it
> > when someone tries to make them go
> >
> > 6 parts:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUdYhvzGTA
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWejJeMLKpg
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2hI0U8C24
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwA_dK23XE
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_NU0SuWMI
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra2Cw_zhITI
> >
> > This is the video, with English subtitles,
> > that showed on France 3 TV. Soon after,
> > Landmark left France!
>
>
> well i went u utube and attempted to sign up.
>
> my name patrickdarcy is already taken hmmmm.
>
>
> be back later
>
> --
> Love is all u need.
gourous2004
gourous2004
to all,
you can now go here for the file in question:
http://www.archive.org/details/Gourous
if it does not work at first, try refresh a few times
bottom left of screen, rightclick "cinepack"
after you download make sure to make multiple copies and it might be
good to distribute on internet servers and filesharing like torrent and
cd copies and such...because they will probably knock it down once the
brainwashed ppl wake up
gourous2004
to all,
you can now go here for the file in question:
http://www.archive.org/details/Gourous
if it does not work at first, try refresh a few times
bottom left of screen, rightclick "cinepack"
after you download make sure to make multiple copies and it might be
good to distribute on internet servers and filesharing like torrent and
cd copies and such...because they will probably knock it down once the
brainwashed ppl wake up
gourous2004
to all,
you can now go here for the file in question:
http://www.archive.org/details/Gourous
if it does not work at first, try refresh a few times
bottom left of screen, rightclick "cinepack"
after you download make sure to make multiple copies and it might be
good to distribute on internet servers and filesharing like torrent and
cd copies and such...because they will probably knock it down once the
brainwashed ppl wake up
Serena Nordstrup
I've read your hypotheticals. I conclude that you neither understand
nor care where the
people of Central Asia come from. Yet you worry about where I come
from...
> Now if you want to play around with words and
> meanings fine.
You wrote the words, Bruno. (You haven't regressed to actions entirely
yet.)
> Keep playing but don't expect much of an answer
I know the respect that rosenbergists have for their ~words~. And the
cavalier way in which they often treat their vocaulary.
> >> >> >> You seem to hide in a box .
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Green, with scarlet runes.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On another note?
> >> >> >> And what have you done to explore, research and open your
> >> >> >> mind??????
> >> >> >> Have you done any primary research or does all your information
> >> >> >> come from secondary sources???
> >> >> >> Seems very limiting to me. Pity you do show some promise????
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Those "primary" hours I spend casing the nearest ~landmark~ den,
> >> >> > assembling statistics on the variations in the amount of vomit left
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > the streets -- that sounds less limiting?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pity but I suppose someone has to do it and since you seem interested
> >> >> in vomit, well thats your choice?
> >> >
> >> > One xan ignore what one finds, or not.
> >> >
> >> >> Ever thought of assisting????
> >> >
> >> > No. Why do you ask?
> >>
> >> Well that would get you in to the bowels of the monster so as you could
> >> get primary research without being involved or being part of the show.
> >
> > Pray explain how one does ~assisting~ without involvement.
>
> Easily you carry out what ever duries you have been assigned and you keep a
> watchful eye on what's going around you. You talk to people>
Duties? Talk? -- Sounds fairly involving to me.
And what prerequisites does ~landmark~ demand of its ~assistants~?
To say that ~life~ has the purpose of living sounds tautological, so
one might label it "common sense" -- in a sense.
The other propositions: that ~life~ has the purpose of contacting
oneself, of contacting one's
emotions, and of bathing in the ~expeience ~ of carrying out the
foregoing -- sound like nonsense to me. I certainly don't accept thaem
as "common sense". You'ld need to convince me.
> Do you live in a cloister?????
No. -- Why do you ask?
> >> >> Words never give you the real thing.
> >> >
> >> > Never?
> >
> > Never ever?
>
> Not to my knowledge
The proposition has one vote -- bruno's. I remain unconvinced.
One vote, no evidence...
> >> > And why would you believe this?
> >>
> >> Because thats the area where I saw an improvement in my life.
> >
> > And you extrapolated from that to form a universal principle about "it"
> > and about other quite different relationships?
>
> Yes I keep my life simple.
Hey Bruno, have you ever suspected that other people might exist? --
quite outside your ~life~?
I don't recognise your reference here. The set ~Werner Erhard~ has no
intersection with the set "technical communication engineer", and thus
stands poles apart from the set "my favorite technical communication
engineer".
But if you did mean to refer to ~Wwerner Erhard~/Jack Rosenberg -- you
"never met the guy". Why credit someone you have never ~experienced~?
> >> because that would place you in a box situation to observe and
> >> report from first hand knowledge all the beliefs you presently carry.
> >> It also may make you a more credible witness because with your
> >> questioning skills and your scientific approach you would be able
> >> to explain to all of us the smoke and mirror presentations.
> >>
> >> You are not anxious that he may hypnotise you are you??????
> >
> > There you go again: attempting to make matters personal to me and thus
> > diveerting and trivializing the discussion.
>
> I thought I was adding to the conversation.
Something deceived and misled you. Guess what?
> >> Funny that!!!!!!
Eldon
> > >> >> Words never give you the real thing.
> > >> >
> > >> > Never?
> > >
> > > Never ever?
> >
> > Not to my knowledge
>
> The proposition has one vote -- bruno's. I remain unconvinced.
>
you haven't learned it), chances are you'll derive nothing. If you see
some in German or Spanish, you might decipher a little meaning even if
you don't know the language due to similar roots and so on. If you see
somw words in English (assuming it's your native language), you'll get
meaning and maybe infer some nuances. If it's a poem about a rose, it
might trigger the smell of a rose as a recalled ~experience~.
"A rose is a rose is a rose."
"There's no there there." [referring to her home town of Oakland]
"Ernest, talk is not literature." [an admonition to Hemingway]
-- Gertrude Stein
It seems to me that Bruno defines "the real thing" as direct perceptual
experience, such as sensations and visceral emotions. Which implies
that scriptures, logical processes and verbal abstractions are not real
things.
We could metaphorically extend this to assume it is more ~authentic~ to
play life by ear, so therefore nobody needs to learn musical notation.
Just have the symphony orchestra sit down and improvise.
bruno Tonon
Again Serena I must retreat from the discussion because you are
just too smart, logical, and I have lost the point of what we were
discussing.
I will retreat with my tail between my legs and go to my corner and cry.
cheers
>
>> >> Funny that!!!!!!
>
bruno Tonon
Listening more , and trying not to make other people wrong.
The main one for me was not making other people wrong
just because they disagreed with me.
>
elle...@hotmail.com
bruno Tonon wrote:
> Listening more , and trying not to make other people wrong.
> The main one for me was not making other people wrong
> just because they disagreed with me.
Funny thing, Bruno....
Now that you're laden with psycho-con ~wisdom~ and Landmarky
crap-knowledge, you'll be wrong more often than not and others will
probably cut you a wide berth so as not to have to get into it with
you, showing or proving to you how WRONG you are.
E
Real-Tex
HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> bruno Tonon wrote:
>
> > Hey happy you were speaking about Ethics and how your profession was bound
> > by some
> > code of behaviour. what profession is that if I may ask?????
> >
> > And have you done Forum or only heard about it second hand????
> >
> > cheers
>
>
> i like to keep my background in these areas to myself as a general rule
Then why bring it up?
>
> reason
>
> the highest truths are beyond sects and language barriers
Prove it. This should be easy, as it transcends all.
Eldon
Real-Tex wrote:
> HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> > bruno Tonon wrote:
> >
> > > Hey happy you were speaking about Ethics and how your profession was bound
> > > by some
> > > code of behaviour. what profession is that if I may ask?????
> > >
> > > And have you done Forum or only heard about it second hand????
> > >
> > > cheers
> >
> >
> > i like to keep my background in these areas to myself as a general rule
>
> Then why bring it up?
Why do you post anonymously, Tex? You've described your purported
background some these areas, yet you come off as a digressive, divisive
sock puppet. Oh, excuse me for bringing that up. Just do some more of
it. You make Landmark look ridiculous.
Are they stupid enough to pay you for doing that, or is Scientology
smart enough? Or are you stupid enough to donate so much time an energy
as a volunteer? Circles within circles, you know.
elle...@hotmail.com
Eldon wrote:
> Why do you post anonymously, Tex? You've described your purported
> background some these areas, yet you come off as a digressive, divisive
> sock puppet. Oh, excuse me for bringing that up. Just do some more of
> it. You make Landmark look ridiculous.
Shhhhhh....
Don't tell him.
He does a better job of making Landmark look ~bad~ than any critic can.
They are their own worst advertisement, LOLOL
(I'm kind of surprised Landmark hasn't paid him to shut up.)
E
Tex
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1160578108.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Real-Tex wrote:
>> HAPPYsamurai wrote:
>> > bruno Tonon wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hey happy you were speaking about Ethics and how your profession was
>> > > bound
>> > > by some
>> > > code of behaviour. what profession is that if I may ask?????
>> > >
>> > > And have you done Forum or only heard about it second hand????
>> > >
>> > > cheers
>> >
>> >
>> > i like to keep my background in these areas to myself as a general rule
>>
>> Then why bring it up?
>
> Why do you post anonymously, Tex? You've described your purported
> background some these areas, yet you come off as a digressive, divisive
> sock puppet. Oh, excuse me for bringing that up. Just do some more of
> it. You make Landmark look ridiculous.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Seems like I've struck a nerve again Eldon.
Your retort is the playground equivalent of "Oh YEAH!!!!"
Good come back! ;-)
Serena Nordstrup
Eldon wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> > > >> >> Words never give you the real thing.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Never?
> > > >
> > > > Never ever?
> > >
> > > Not to my knowledge
> >
> > The proposition has one vote -- bruno's. I remain unconvinced.
> >
> Bruno does have a point.
He has the beginnings of a case. But he used the word "never'. That
hardly ever props up an argument effectively: too easy to find
exceptions.
> If you see some words in Sanskrit (assuming
> you haven't learned it), chances are you'll derive nothing. If you see
> some in German or Spanish, you might decipher a little meaning even if
> you don't know the language due to similar roots and so on. If you see
> somw words in English (assuming it's your native language), you'll get
> meaning and maybe infer some nuances. If it's a poem about a rose, it
> might trigger the smell of a rose as a recalled ~experience~.
At level one might not even recognize words as words (with
word-boundaries). One may appreciate them as exotica, but not as words.
> "A rose is a rose is a rose."
> "There's no there there." [referring to her home town of Oakland]
> "Ernest, talk is not literature." [an admonition to Hemingway]
> -- Gertrude Stein
>
> It seems to me that Bruno defines "the real thing" as direct perceptual
> experience, such as sensations and visceral emotions. Which implies
> that scriptures, logical processes and verbal abstractions are not real
> things.
>
> We could metaphorically extend this to assume it is more ~authentic~ to
> play life by ear, so therefore nobody needs to learn musical notation.
> Just have the symphony orchestra sit down and improvise.
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
> "HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1160524106.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> > tell me what insights you have in improving relationships
> >
> > 5 key points?
>
> Listening more , and trying not to make other people wrong.
> The main one for me was not making other people wrong
> just because they disagreed with me.
The ability to make a case and to defend it -- rationally and with
focus -- what greater human(e) trait could the rosenbergists deprive
one of? And all under the slickly ambiguous slogan of ~making someone
wrong~!
Slimily/slipperily
Serena
bruno Tonon
I didn't feel comfortable replying to Happy because I have said it all
before
and I fully well knew you would come back and take the piss out of what
I have said.
However I have allways maintained that for me Forum was an experiential
act and that the awareness I gained by participating in the Forum workshop
was an emotional catharsis' where I was able to see the hidden part of my
psyche that was used to making people wrong ( especially my wife) and then
not take responsibility for that act.
Now that may not mean anything to you Serena but it means a lot to me
because its my world, my life and my experience and I can see and feel
the benefit and well being that this change has brought me.
Thats all I am claiming and I am not even asking you to believe because I
am not out to prove anything to you.
I may have at the beginniing when I first joined the group but I have
finally
learnt that I;m not out to prove anything, all I want to report was that I
had
a good time in Forum, Possibly the same as Tex and Cody.
For some reason you |Ellen, and others are threatened by our claim and I
can't
figure out why.
I can understand Caligari and Estie being burned out by the organisation and
possibly having been lead astray and wasted some of their life assisting and
not
getting the benefit they expected.
However I don't understand your involvement, your cynicism and hate for
the oganisation, the duplicious role you play here using other names such as
Pau and others to play some sort of mind games which I suppose must
give you some pleasure?????? Don't get that?????
Tonight I had the pleasure of attending a workshop by Harry Oldfield
http://www.electrocrystal.com/ where he spoke and demonstrated
his Video technology of being able to capture the different field
energies surrounded in the human body and other living things.
Has this been accepted by Science and is there valid proof that these
energies exhist, most possibly No if you believe in the Materialistic
world ideology of the nature of being. Your favourite ideology
which you embrace in that box of yours that you reside in.
Well I found the whole presentation interesting and although I did not
fully understand and could not test what Harry Oldfield was saying,
I am comfortable keeping up an open mind in this area and to learn
more about it before I pass judgement on this matter.
He is coming up your way next week if you are interested but that would
mean you getting out of your box, and I don't think you are too comfortable
doing that???
There were many Medical doctors in the audience and I did not see much
heckling
from their side.
So I suppose all I am seeking is for you to keep an open mind, which
presently
you find hard to do.
cheers Bruno
>
> Slimily/slipperily
> Serena
>
Eldon
Hey Bruno,
How about an experiential replay? Patrick is not to read further than
this due to his delicate Christian ears and principles. Stop right
here, Patrick!!!! Dirty talk ahead!
BRUNO, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE! You're just playing a goddamn racket.
The hidden part of your psyche is that you've had your head up your ass
all your life, and Landmark embedded it there with mental barbs that
work something like like fish hooks.
You think kidney stones hurt? You CREATED that fucking experience. Now
to continue the process, just imagine that those herbal remedies you
like contain toxic poisons not only in the form of mercury and lead,
but E. Coli bacteria that will rot your guts as well as your very
soul... FEEL IT. Ooooh!
Why continue? Why, because YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE -- but it's all for your
own good. This is a catharsis.
OK, enough. Now reverse all that and imagine that you're omniscient.
All those E. Coli bacteria are afraid of you. Doesn't that feel better?
Why, yes it does, doesn't it? Many fields of loving and untainted
spinach leaves send you their blessings. The entire world ecology
worships and blesses you.
OK, now thank me for the transformation. It didn't cost you a cent so
far, even in your devalued Australian dollars. However, a PayPal
contribution would not be refused should you wish to share this
experience with others. Spread the word.
Just kidding of course. Well, not entirely. Now go have a nice glass of
Tibetan Goji berry juice. Maybe it'll do you good. But it won't fix
deadly diseases like AIDS or cancer as this goddamn quack used to say
he could do until he was exposed:
http://www.ceya.com.au/goji.html
Real-Tex
Serena Nordstrup
Sounds like a ~story~ -- just like so many other ~stories~. I wonder
who hid that pasrt of your psyche?
> Now that may not mean anything to you Serena but it means a lot to me
> because its my world, my life and my experience and I can see and feel
> the benefit and well being that this change has brought me.
Solipsism rules ok. Why bother even announcing the fact, let alone
recruiting?
> Thats all I am claiming and I am not even asking you to believe because I
> am not out to prove anything to you.
> I may have at the beginniing when I first joined the group but I have
> finally
> learnt that I;m not out to prove anything, all I want to report was that I
> had
> a good time in Forum, Possibly the same as Tex and Cody.
>
> For some reason you |Ellen, and others are threatened by our claim
You reckon?
> and I can't figure out why.
> I can understand Caligari and Estie being burned out by the organisation and
> possibly having been lead astray and wasted some of their life assisting and
> not getting the benefit they expected.
> However I don't understand your involvement, your cynicism and hate for
> the oganisation, the duplicious role you play here using other names such as
> Pau and others to play some sort of mind games which I suppose must
> give you some pleasure?????? Don't get that?????
Funnily enough, alt.fan.landmark has no brief to second-guess my
motives or actions.
> Tonight I had the pleasure of attending a workshop by Harry Oldfield
> http://www.electrocrystal.com/ where he spoke and demonstrated
> his Video technology of being able to capture the different field
> energies surrounded in the human body and other living things.
Glad you enjoyed yourself.
> Has this been accepted by Science and is there valid proof that these
> energies exhist, most possibly No if you believe in the Materialistic
> world ideology of the nature of being. Your favourite ideology
> which you embrace in that box of yours that you reside in.
Who makes up these ~stories~ about me, Bruno?
> Well I found the whole presentation interesting and although I did not
> fully understand and could not test what Harry Oldfield was saying,
> I am comfortable keeping up an open mind in this area and to learn
> more about it before I pass judgement on this matter.
Will you *ever* pass judgement on charlatans and quacks? Or do you only
judge anti-rosenbergists? (open-mindedly, of course...)
> He is coming up your way next week if you are interested but that would
> mean you getting out of your box, and I don't think you are too comfortable
> doing that???
> There were many Medical doctors in the audience and I did not see much
> heckling from their side.
Make 'em wrong, Bruno! In a negative way!
> So I suppose all I am seeking is for you to keep an open mind, which
> presently you find hard to do.
You reckon your mind shows more openness than my mind? You can believe
that if you want.
Slimily/slipperily
Serena
HAPPYsamurai
> You reckon your mind shows more openness than my mind? You can believe
> that if you want.
even if my mind was open 1% it would be more open than [name]'s mind
opened 100%
does the size of the mind contribute to the results of degrees of
openess?
ie if my mind is a big as the sun and yours is the size of a peanut
does that mean i have more work to do than you or less [esp if I'm
content to rest on my huge and many laurels?]
where's corey he'd come up with a formula
ps.... and can I fake it? [see mimicry in nature]
Tex
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
>
>> You reckon your mind shows more openness than my mind? You can believe
>> that if you want.
>
>
> even if my mind was open 1% it would be more open than [name]'s mind
> opened 100%
>
> does the size of the mind contribute to the results of degrees of
> openess?
>
> ie if my mind is a big as the sun and yours is the size of a peanut
> does that mean i have more work to do than you or less [esp if I'm
> content to rest on my huge and many laurels?]
Well that's a problem you will never have to worry about Happy? ;-)
Serena Nordstrup
HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
>
> > You reckon your mind shows more openness than my mind? You can believe
> > that if you want.
>
>
> even if my mind was open 1% it would be more open than [name]'s mind
> opened 100%
>
> does the size of the mind contribute to the results of degrees of
> openess?
>
> ie if my mind is a big as the sun and yours is the size of a peanut
> does that mean i have more work to do than you or less [esp if I'm
> content to rest on my huge and many laurels?]
I refer your fascinating questions to Bruno -- our resident expert on
open-mindedness.
Tex
> bruno Tonon wrote:
>
>> I have never claimed that wernertech was the only way to go
>> and yes I may have achieved my life quality via a different
>> approach.
>> The reality for me is that it was the wernertech that I gained benefit
>> from.
>> Thats all I am suggesting.
>>
>> cheers Bruno
>
>
> cheers to u
>
> so sales up and greater quality* in relationships
>
> perhaps tex's sales went up due to him increasing the quality of his
> relationships with his customers?
>
>
> i can hear violins ;-)
>
> where's are resident negetive LM grad/
> any comments on quality in relationship?
If you are talking about Tex, I'm not a Landmark "Grad."
I took est 24 years ago.
And since I'm posting to a FAN.landmark newsgroup as a FAN, sort of, I'd say
Bruno and I are the only positive ones here.
The rest are naysayers, negative trolls if you will, with little to no
experience with Landmark or the subject matter at hand, much like yourself
Hap.
If the person that founded this group was not a FAN, then she fraudulently
named the group, to bait people.
Perhaps an alt.HATE.landmark would be a more appropriate venue for y'all.
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