OT: Branden's on Objectivitism & Rand
Caligari
computeruser
> Barbara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpOTDkTsFQ
> Nathaniel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZUKJjgCqg
Thank you for the Links.
Did you happen to see this from the November 25, 2009 edition -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1125/p09s01-coop.html ?
Celebrate Thanksgiving the Ayn Rand way: Thank yourself
On Thanksgiving, we should thank ourselves and the other producers who make
the good life possible.
By Debi Ghate
Washington
Ah, Thanksgiving. The word conjures up images of turkey dinner, pumpkin pie,
and watching football with family and friends. It kicks off the holiday
season and is the biggest shopping period of the year.
Children are taught that Thanksgiving came about when Pilgrims gave thanks
to God for a bountiful harvest. It seems we vaguely mumble thanks for the
food on our table, the roof over our head, and how lucky we are in spite of
these hard economic times. After all, our lives are so much better than,
say, those in Bangladesh.
But surely there is something more to celebrate, something more sacred about
this holiday.
What should we really be celebrating on Thanksgiving?
Ayn Rand described Thanksgiving as "a typically American holiday" whose
"essential, secular meaning is a celebration of successful production. It is
a producers' holiday. The lavish meal is a symbol of the fact that abundant
consumption is the result and reward of production." She was right.
This country was mostly uninhabited and wild when our European forefathers
began to develop the land and then build spectacular cities, shaping what
has become the wealthiest nation in the world. It's in the American spirit
to overcome challenges, create great achievements, and enjoy prosperity.
We recognize that individuals free to produce create enormous wealth. We
uniquely dedicate ourselves to the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.
It's no accident that Americans have a holiday called Thanksgiving - a
yearly tradition when we pause to appreciate the bountiful harvest we've
reaped.
What is the contemporary version of this bountiful harvest? In spite of the
current state of the economy, it's our affluence. It's the cars, houses, and
vacations we enjoy. It's the medicines we rely on, the movies we watch, and
the safe, clean streets we live on. It's the good life, for the long haul.
How do we get this bountiful harvest? Watch any hardworking American. We
create it by working hard year after year, and by wanting excellence for
ourselves and our loved ones. What we don't create ourselves, we use our
best judgment to trade value for value with those who have the goods and
services we need, such as our bankers, hairdressers, and doctors. We alone
are responsible for our wealth. We are the producers and Thanksgiving is our
holiday.
So, on Thanksgiving, we should thank ourselves and the other producers who
make the good life possible. Why don't we?
From a young age, we are bombarded with messages designed to undermine our
confident pursuit of values: "Be humble," "You can't know what's good for
yourself," "It's better to give than to receive," and, above all, "Don't be
selfish!" We are scolded not to take more than "our share" - whether it is
of electricity, profits, or pie. We are taught that altruism - not mere
benevolence or generosity, but selfless sacrifice for others - is the moral
ideal. We are taught to sacrifice for strangers, who inexplicably have a
claim to our hard-earned wealth. We are asked to bail out failing banks and
uninsured patients. We are asked to serve rather than lead. We are taught to
kneel rather than reach for the sky.
But morally, each one of us should reach for the sky. Electricity, profits,
and pie can only be truly earned through individual production - giving each
of us the right to savor their consumption. Every decision, from which
career to pursue to whom to call a friend, should be guided by what will
best advance an individual's rational goals, interests, and, ultimately, an
individual's life. We should take pride in being rationally selfish.
Thanksgiving is the perfect time to appreciate and celebrate the fruits of
our labor: our wealth, health, relationships, and property - all the values
we most selfishly cherish. We should thank authors whose books made us
rethink our lives, engineers who gave us the BlackBerry and iPhone, and
financiers whose capital has helped build entire industries. We should thank
ourselves and those individuals whose production makes our lives more
comfortable and enjoyable - those who help us live the much-coveted American
dream.
As you sit down to your sumptuous Thanksgiving dinner, think of all the
talented individuals whose innovation and inventiveness made possible the
products you are enjoying, even if the spread is a little smaller this year.
As you celebrate with your chosen loved ones, thank yourself for everything
you have done to make this moment possible. It's a time to selfishly and
proudly say: "I earned this."
Debi Ghate is vice president of academic programs at the Ayn Rand Institute,
which promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand, author of "Atlas Shrugged" and
"The Fountainhead."
----
Caligari
Thanks, no I hadn't read this (until now.)
-- C
avrarat
Oh GOD no, not the dumb-ass objectivists. Me me me me me me me. Ayn
Rand: Painted Saint. American fundamentalist.
In case you missed it, read again:
> "But morally, each one of us should reach for the sky. Electricity, profits,
> and pie can only be truly earned through individual production - giving each
> of us the right to savor their consumption."
Pie? Pie???
Union Carbide, anyone? Umm, ok, how about ummm...Exxon?
Tremendous amount of moral thanksgiving due there. Reach for the
melting sky.
Call Dr Kavorkian someone, quick.
Eldon
Now, now. It seems that both CU and Caligari (Enric) were roped into
est or Lifespring.
Enric has a good excuse. He's a Romanian immigrant to the US, and he
has a right to be reactionary like Ayn Rand. Surely if she had lived
long enough, she would have found a way to excuse Bernie Madoff. Or
maybe she would have said those rich Jews from Palm Beach got what
they asked for because of their Karl Marx karma. Who knows?
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
See, now you're starting to make sense to me. ;-)
Caligari
Interesting that an array of assumptions (Objectivism supports --
perhaps even leads to -- the actions of corporate incompetence and
malfeasance and swindlers like Madoff, that being an immigrant makes
one "reactionary", etc.) are already concluded as true. I think it's
more useful to think things through than stereotype.
-- Caligari
Eldon
Just saying that coming from a totalitarian environment can cause the
ideological pendulum to swing the other way, as it obviously did in
Ayn Rand's case and maybe yours. Of course, there were plenty of
American college students from my generation who had an infatuation
with her abstract ego trip, but most got over it by the time they
reached the age of 21 or so and entered the real world.
As an aside, I just checked out the Wikipedia entry on Romania and
found this disturbing passage:
"Romanian high school curricula have recently been censored and
restructured, owing to a growing trend of religious conservatism. In
2006, the theory of evolution, which had been taught since the
country's Communist era, was dropped from the compulsory curriculum
nationwide. Philosophical writers critical of religion, such as
Voltaire and Camus have also been removed from the philosophy
curriculum. Instead, students are taught 7-day Creationism in Orthodox
religion classes, which under new proposals could become compulsory.
[126]"
Sounds like the midwest United States way back when.
BTW, do you know if the encyclopedic writings of Mr. Ceausescu have
ever been translated into English? Hopefully abridged, but it would be
interesting to read whatever he ranted.
Caligari
I was 7 years old when I left Romania. Ceausescu wasn't the party
leader than but Gheorghiu-Dej ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Communist_Party
) who was much more benign (didn't starve his people to build
monuments and expensive, ornate buildings.) I didn't think positive
or negative about Romania until College at Berkeley. First I thought
mildly positive following leftist views at Berkeley that communism as
a positive alternative. But the son of a friend of my father's lived
with me who came from Romania and was studying for his Ph.D at
Berkeley. He was quite unenamored of Ceausescu and communism which
provided a real and concrete information on Romania and some of the
effects of communism. You really are stereotyping Eldon and
continuing further along that path.
-- C
Eldon
> ) who was much more benign (didn't starve his people to build
> monuments and expensive, ornate buildings.) I didn't think positive
> or negative about Romania until College at Berkeley. First I thought
> mildly positive following leftist views at Berkeley that communism as
> a positive alternative. But the son of a friend of my father's lived
> with me who came from Romania and was studying for his Ph.D at
> Berkeley. He was quite unenamored of Ceausescu and communism which
> provided a real and concrete information on Romania and some of the
> effects of communism. You really are stereotyping Eldon and
> continuing further along that path.
>
> -- C
At least I have elicited some personal history from you that I didn't
know. It's interesting. Sorry if I insulted you or jumped to
conclusions. I thought you were there during the Ceausescu era.
Not that I think either the Landmarkian or Randian "philosophies" are
worth bothering with. Because they aren't (philosophies).
Caligari
> On Dec 5, 7:59 pm, Caligari <enric.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 5, 10:35 am, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 5, 6:16 pm, Caligari <enric.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 5, 5:57 am, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 5, 2:17 pm, avrarat <sean...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 5, 11:02 am, "computeruser" <ona...@postmaster.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Caligari wrote...
> > > > > > > > Barbara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpOTDkTsFQ
> > > > > > > > Nathaniel:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZUKJjgCqg
>
> > > > > > > Thank you for the Links.
>
> > > > > > > Did you happen to see this from the November 25, 2009 edition -http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1125/p09s01-coop.html?
> > > > > > > Celebrate Thanksgiving the Ayn Rand way: Thank yourself
> > > > > > > On Thanksgiving, we should thank ourselves and the other producers who make
> > > > > > > the good life possible.
> > > > > > > By Debi Ghate
>
It is a bit disconcerting to talk publicly about some personal details
-- though I use discretion. But, then a discussion and refutation
isn't real without facts and evidence.
Thanks for the response.
I'm not certain Objectivism is a complete philosophy -- as Rand
originally constructed it it was not originally rigorously challenged
and left areas incomplete. I think any analysis of Werner's ideas or
the ideas he's assumed in est and then Landmark would fall apart
immediately as philosophy. I do think Objectivism has interesting
ideas that extend from Aristotelian philosophy that are alternatives
and challenge religion and Platonic philosophy. And I find them worth
considering and thinking through their practice and consequences.
-- C
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is Eldon's Stereotype Saturday posts.
Did you know that people of "Aryan" ethnicity are more rational than
others????
We just need Chris to come back so that Eldon can hurl racial slurs at
him again.
avrarat
Define 'Texan' please. Should be interesting. Texans seem always to
decalre their pride at being Texan. The one's I've had the pleasure of
meeting ;) What are the supposed attributes of a Texan, Tex?
Also, there is apparently a category of mental health patient known as
an 'Avatar Basher'. Please consult with your hero, wAnus, and get him
to explain that particular stereotype for us all just one more time. I
laugh every single time he trots that one out. Zero imagination. Must
be the cult influence. Zombie mind. Implant, etc etc.
I notice you are now aping the lesser ape wAnus in the 'stole from
Avatar and was fined' line. Has wAynus brainwashed you? You seem
vulnerable to cult things. Good luck with all that.
Wayne
Oh come on. Eldon bragged about it, about how smart he was to steal it,
about how you couldn't copyright blah blah bla and some other
hare-brained nonsense of a legal theory. The Federal Judges couldn't
find any reason to put him in prison for life like they should have so
they fined him for $400,000 which should be about 400 years income for
Eldon.
I mean, how many aluminum cans can you possibly collect if you're on the
internet all day and night posting rants on inferior races, inferior
natonalities, inferior beliefs, and heterophobic taunts?
Now I understand if a person finds out about the Avatar Course and he or
she prefers getting their enlightenment from Oprah for free and in 11
minute segments. But this blind hatred from guys who essentially know
nothing about Avatar other than Eldon says ..... Well, I don't really
know what he says but it's YOU guys who have the cult mindset.
How many here have even done the course? Me. QT2. Eldon, I guess. Grace
went to a dental convention.
I liked it, QT2 liked it, Eldon liked it so much he tried to steal the
company!
Eldon's a Basher. The rest of you guys are boneheads.
tex
I don't know.
I live in New England. ;-)
>
> Also, there is apparently a category of mental health patient known as
> an 'Avatar Basher'. Please consult with your hero, wAnus, and get him
> to explain that particular stereotype for us all just one more time. I
> laugh every single time he trots that one out. Zero imagination. Must
> be the cult influence. Zombie mind. Implant, etc etc.
He's describing 5 or 6 people, perhaps?
He's a little sensitive to any criticism of Avatar.
It appears to be very important to him, don't you think?
I was put in that category for a time, based on a few critical
comments regarding what I saw as a cult-of-personality surrounding
Harry.
>
> I notice you are now aping the lesser ape wAnus in the 'stole from
> Avatar and was fined' line. Has wAynus brainwashed you?
No, I read the copyright infringement court papers.
Haven't you?
Do you think Wayne is just making it up?
http://openjurist.org/376/f3d/1254/palmer-v-braun
Braun was Palmer's student in the Avatar course, an educational course
Palmer authored and conducted to teach others how to explore and
master their own consciousness. Palmer conducted the Avatar course
under the auspices of Star's Edge. The Avatar course materials were
copyrighted, and Avatar students and instructors were required to sign
an agreement to keep confidential the contents of the Avatar course
materials. Braun became an instructor in the Avatar course. But, after
a falling-out with Palmer, Braun left the Avatar program and began
doing some writing of his own.
3
Braun published articles designed to discredit Palmer. And, soon after
severing his relationship with Palmer and Star's Edge, Braun began
drafting a competing course in consciousness, which he entitled The
Source Course. He drafted most of his materials while living in the
United States, but ultimately finished drafting The Source Course in
Paris, France. He marketed the course on the internet, using a website
maintained in the United States, touting his course as an analog of
Avatar and a take-home manual for Avatar graduates to use in
refreshing their skills. He sold at least 25 copies of The Source
Course to residents of the United States, and shipped these copies
from France to the United States.
4
Palmer and Star's Edge saw The Source Course as a plagiarism of the
Avatar course, and they sued Braun under federal law for copyright
infringement, trademark infringement, and unfair competition, as well
as under several state-law theories. Braun moved to dismiss the
complaint for improper venue, or, in the alternative, to change venue.
The district court denied Braun's venue motion, and held a bench
trial. Following trial, the court entered judgment for Palmer and
Star's Edge on their copyright infringement and libel claims. Braun
appeals.
> You seem vulnerable to cult things. Good luck with all that.- Hide quoted text -
You seem blinded from the truth.
Good luck with that.
tex
LOL!!!
Avrarat is like Ed McMahon for you, Eldon.
He keeps pitching meatballs down the middle of the plate.
Is he on your payroll? ;-)
avrarat
Ah so he HAS gotten to you, huh? Just too perfect a prediction. Knew
you'd go insane over the jibe. Sorry, 'bash'. Ha ha ha ha!
Blinded from the truth? It just gets better and better! BWAAAA ha ha
ha ha!!
You should do stand up comedy with wAnus giving cues from the wings.
In itself that would be funny.
Guys, don't give up your day jobs.
Day jobs???/
avrarat
You just don't get it do you? I said 'trot out the line', true or
untrue, and like the true automaton you are, you...ummm...trotted out
the line!
It's so funny.
Come on, tell us ALL again about it. It's entertaining watching you go
around and around in circles like a dog chasing its tail.
Can't wait to read the reply from the cowhand. Bet he does exactly the
SAME thing as you.
Congratulations. Your own personal catamite. He even calls you
'Wayne'.
This is just TOO much fun.
avrarat
Oh I see you didn't reply to any questions. Hmm, the similarities
bewteen you both, hmmmm....almost Freudian.
Wow, so I'm a bonehead. Interesting criticism coming from wAnus.
Didn't Hari the Panto Horse get in trouble with Scientology for not
paying tithes? wAnus, trot THAT out a million billion times ok? A
little balance wouldn't go astray
Here's a good line; meditate on it:
"The eye maketh the horizon".
Please give us your views on what you think that means.
The irony is going to be delicious. Go nuts guys. Oh you already are,
oops.
tex
And you think you are entitled to answers?
And you chastise the Objectivists for being the "me, me me " group?
Come on Avrarat, you are the poster child for Sam Vaknin's book
"Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"
Tom just lost his status as NPD poster child.
Actually, Tom doesn't even register on the chart with you.
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for
admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and
present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of
the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without
commensurate achievements)
("Avrarat" claims, anonymously, that he has 4 degrees, "lectured" at
Australian "Ivy League" schools, has multiple peer-reviewed
publications blah, blah blah)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,
brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(Read his posts. He thinks he's special. Wanted to send me his picture
on Facebook etc)
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status
people (or institutions)
(Back to his Aussie "Ivy League" lecture claims)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(Constantly congratulates himself on "winning" arguments on frivolous
Google news groups read by 10-15 people)
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of
especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her
expectations
(Demands answers to his off-topic, pointless cross examinations)
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others
to achieve his or her own ends
(Only his "friends" know for sure.)
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the
feelings and needs of others
(Well, that's obvious)
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of
him or her
(This is self-evident in his posts.)
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
(Well, don't we all here!!!) ;-)
>
> Wow, so I'm a bonehead. Interesting criticism coming from wAnus.
> Didn't Hari the Panto Horse get in trouble with Scientology for not
> paying tithes? wAnus, trot THAT out a million billion times ok? A
> little balance wouldn't go astray
>
> Here's a good line; meditate on it:
>
> "The eye maketh the horizon".
>
> Please give us your views on what you think that means.
>
> The irony is going to be delicious. Go nuts guys. Oh you already are,
> oops.- Hide quoted text -
The clock just struck 12, cuckoo, cukoo.... :-)
Serena Nordstrup
> avrarat wrote:
> > On Dec 6, 10:52 am, tex <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I notice you are now aping the lesser ape wAnus in the 'stole from
> > Avatar and was fined' line. Has wAynus brainwashed you? You seem
> > vulnerable to cult things. Good luck with all that.
>
> Oh come on. Eldon bragged about it, about how smart he was to steal it,
> about how you couldn't copyright blah blah bla and some other
> hare-brained nonsense of a legal theory. The Federal Judges couldn't
> find any reason to put him in prison for life like they should have so
> they fined him for $400,000 which should be about 400 years income for
> Eldon.
>
> I mean, how many aluminum cans can you possibly collect if you're on the
> internet all day and night posting rants on inferior races, inferior
> natonalities, inferior beliefs, and heterophobic taunts?
>
> Now I understand if a person finds out about the Avatar Course and he or
> she prefers getting their enlightenment from Oprah for free and in 11
> minute segments. But this blind hatred from guys who essentially know
> nothing about Avatar other than Eldon says ..... Well, I don't really
> know what he says but it's YOU guys who have the cult mindset.
>
> How many here have even done the course?
What relevance does this question have ?
Serena Nordstrup
> Caligari wrote...
> > Barbara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpOTDkTsFQ
> > Nathaniel:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZUKJjgCqg
>
> Thank you for the Links.
>
> Did you happen to see this from the November 25, 2009 edition -http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1125/p09s01-coop.html?
> Celebrate Thanksgiving the Ayn Rand way: Thank yourself
> On Thanksgiving, we should thank ourselves and the other producers who make
> the good life possible.
> By Debi Ghate
>
> It's in the American spirit to overcome challenges,
> create great achievements, and enjoy prosperity.
Un-objectivist spirituality alert?
avrarat
> (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
> achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without
> commensurate achievements)
Expects to be recognised? Interesting projection there, cowpat.
Achievements? I spoke honestly about them. What, can't cope with the
possibility that they MIGHT be real? Hmm, wonder why you're so
insecure about my achievements? Envy?
There is a difference between malignant self-interest and self-
esteem, which you seem to be sorely lacking. Oh well, that's the way
the cuckoo cuckoos.
> (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,
> brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Is that so? Hmmm. Are you sure you don't mean Harry Palmer? Wrner
Erhard, the guy with the made-up name that so infatuated you?
OFFERED to send you my cam in live mode not WANTED to. Why? Because
you thought I looked like wAnus...or you, shudder. Just wanted to set
the record straight. The offer's still there, you big handsome man.
Mwahh ;)
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be
> understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status
> people (or institutions)
I'll let that one speak for itself. Again, 'projection' springs to
mind...
>
> (Back to his Aussie "Ivy League" lecture claims)
Want me to repeat my qualifications? Happy to. I was asked about them.
I provided them. I notice you claim to be doing important scientific
research. Pot to kettle, anyone?
>
> (4) requires excessive admiration
>
> (Constantly congratulates himself on "winning" arguments on frivolous
> Google news groups read by 10-15 people)
Someone's got to ;) All Avatarites and Scienos seem to do is attack
when they are cornered. Not so much as a single concession on a single
point. Infallibility of the painted saints Palmer, Hubbard, Erhard,
Rand. True scientists and visionaries concede when they are wrong.
That's what makes the human. It's called 'humility'.
> (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of
> especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her
> expectations
Sounds more like the characteristics of a cult leader..hmmm...I detect
a kind of semi-conscious insight there, but it unfortunately failed
you in your own cult-context. How is it you never saw Erhard that way?
Don't you think your description sounds a lot like Harry Palmer?
Perhaps you are just facing the wrong way?
>
> (Demands answers to his off-topic, pointless cross examinations)
Pointless? I thought some of them were pretty reasonably actually. Are
you saying Daku from outer Space and wAynus are rational human beings?
Intersting. Now I know you're really off balance. look, just try
standing a little to the side maybe. If you look directly at the stars
you can't see them. Look a little to the side.Star's Edge wasn't a bad
name I admit, alhtough a little bit teenage 50s sci fi. I used to read
comic books when I was a kid, too.
>
> (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others
> to achieve his or her own ends
Example please. Remember, there are only a measly 15 people come here
on your account.
Wait, have I in fact been exploiting you? Well, I guess I have. You
and wAnus both. How does it feel to have been so easily manipulated? I
draw you out and you projectile vomit everywhere. This is useful as a
means of showing readers what cults can do to a person. The
indigestion alone....christ on a bike!
(here's a joke for you..
Q: What do you call a NUN on a PENNY FARTHING?
A: Virgin on the Ridiculous
I have friends, yes. Why, don't you? Oh and published, peer reviewd
articles ;) Don't you?
Can I ask you again to provide an answer to this 'pointless' question:
Would Avatar hold up to rigorous scientific enquiry? You clami to be a
scientist or something. You should be able to answer thew question. I
have never received an answer to this question. I wonder why?
>
> (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the
> feelings and needs of others
The reason I come here is because I feel awful about people who in
their suffering have turned to cults, like the one you hang around on
the periphery of. I have known people totally demoralised by Avatar
and Scientology, and each has been personally blamed for their own
apparent 'failure'. Some compassion.
> Well that's obvious.
To you perhaps, but you're more than a little bit screwed up, you
know.
>
> (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of
> him or her
Weird, really. I was thinking the same about you. Hint 1: "Ivy
league". Hint 2: "Mr Art History".
> (This is self-evident in his posts.)
You're repeating yourself now. Did all that creative typing tire you
out?
> (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
>
> (Well, don't we all here!!!) ;-)
True, true. But some of us are justifiably haughty. How come you yanks
never spell 'behaviour' right?
> The clock just struck 12, cuckoo, cukoo.... :-)
I see someone has finally taught you how to read an analogue clock. Or
was it one of those battery-operated digital cuckoo clocks? You'll get
there. Keep at it.
tex
egin quote>
<ban I ask you again to provide an answer to this 'pointless'
question:
Would Avatar hold up to rigorous scientific enquiry? You clami to be a
scientist or something. You should be able to answer thew question. I
have never received an answer to this question. I wonder why? <end
quote>
I'm not sure what one would be trying to measure with "rigorous
scientific (i)nquiry?"
Since i know nothing about Avatar, I'll answer about various analogues
I'm more familiar with.
Would Christianity, Islam, Landmark, Buddhism etc. hold up to
"rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
No.
Are you referring to Avatar's claims that they have special
"technology"?
I've heard Landmarkers use this term also.
I don't think the term was used during my est days.
Just marketing bullshit, in my opinion.
Here's something you might understand.
I'ts all closer to art than science.
One of my clients was recently conducting a study on the effects of
yoga with regard to relaxation, stress relief.
They were comparing it to similar levels of exercise, i.e. walking
etc.
I haven't heard what they discovered, if anything.
Can belief be subject to "rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
I don't think so.
But it seems to give us some peace of mind at times.
Eldon
Ha! If you want an example of narcissism (secondhand at least), just
mosey on other to Marty Rathbun's blog. He left Scientology somewhere
around several years ago, and has been rounding up all the righteous,
dissident Hubbardians who hate the present regime that is run by the
nasty, psychopathic dwarf David Miscavige.
Marty is pretty pretentious and self-assured, but at least he hasn't
eradicated too many of my posts on there.
Of course, none of this bodes well for Hari Palmer, especially
considering the close connection between his cult and Scientology,
especially down under. Too bad Senator Xenophon didn't get a Senate
inquiry started yet, but maybe in February. Meanwhile, the police and
tax folks can do their respective duties.
Caligari
The consequence of a rational philosophy founded in the U.S.
Constitution:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed;..."
There's a generalized, non-specific religious reference in the quote.
It's difficult to be without spiritual references in writing for all
-- though Rand is pretty much does in her writing. There are
religious Libertarians like Ron Paul who are fully Libertarian as
there are Scientist who are religious but fully acknowledge and use
Darwinism.
-- C
computeruser
Scientific data can be Marketing Bullshit too!
Ask Bruno regarding pharmacutical trials.
Consider the bogus climate-gate marketing that has been going on; to
push more government control upon the unsuspecting masses. This has
been done in the name of golbal warming, carbon footprinting, and now
climate change, all of it marketing hype!!!
Michael Crichton nailed the environmentalists agenda in his fictional
work "State of Fear" years ago.
tex
I'm not sure it is all marketing hype.
even the scientists that are skeptical of the CO2 connection admit
that the earth has warmed in the last 40 years.
It has been cooling for the last twelve or so.
I don't think it is a government conspiracy, CU.
Next you;re going to tell me the reptilians are behind it.
>
> Michael Crichton nailed the environmentalists agenda in his fictional
> work "State of Fear" years ago.- Hide quoted text -
computeruser
"tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0df0cee6-d924-44bf...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
http://fto.co.za/sites/default/files/imagecache/610/gw-al-gore-fire.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHDkcy9Wdo&feature=player_embedded
http://fto.co.za/news/we-are-change-rips-al-gores-book-his-face-calls-him-traitor-2009112515874.html
"We are change" rips up Al Gore's book in his face, calls him traitor
Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 11:42
At a recent book signing the group called "We are change" from Colorado
ripped up Al Gore's new book. They reason that what Al Gore said he was
going to do and what he is now doing are two different things. They also say
Al Gore will cause people all over the world to pay pollution tax which is
far from his apparent "stop pollution" agenda.
Al Gore's agenda is starting to become more open and revealed by the day.
In this video (if you cant watch it) "We are change" Colorado rips up Al
Gore's book and infiltrates his book signing, the also explain why they did
it.
tex
> "tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> "We are change" rips up Al Gore's book in his face, calls him traitor
>
> Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 11:42
>
> At a recent book signing the group called "We are change" from Colorado
> ripped up Al Gore's new book. They reason that what Al Gore said he was
> going to do and what he is now doing are two different things. They also say
> Al Gore will cause people all over the world to pay pollution tax which is
> far from his apparent "stop pollution" agenda.
>
> Al Gore's agenda is starting to become more open and revealed by the day.
>
> In this video (if you cant watch it) "We are change" Colorado rips up Al
> Gore's book and infiltrates his book signing, the also explain why they did
> it.
Good.
I think Al Gore is a fraud.
avrarat
>
> I'm not sure what one would be trying to measure with "rigorous
> scientific (i)nquiry?"
The efficay of the program over the longer term.
>
> Would Christianity, Islam, Landmark, Buddhism etc. hold up to
> "rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
> No.
Probably not. Therefore I would ask the same question of of these
religions and cults, and Buddhism too. As I understand it, it is
possible to measure the effect of meditation. Possibly also prayer.
The proponents of Avatar make a lot of claims. I'd like to see these
claims tested. Is that too difficult to understand?
> Are you referring to Avatar's claims that they have special
> "technology"?
> I've heard Landmarkers use this term also.
> I don't think the term was used during my est days.
> Just marketing bullshit, in my opinion.
Not that they have claims to special technology but if this so-called
'technolgy' (or technique) is any good, and able to be measured over
the longer term.
> Here's something you might understand.
> I'ts all closer to art than science.
> One of my clients was recently conducting a study on the effects of
> yoga with regard to relaxation, stress relief.
> They were comparing it to similar levels of exercise, i.e. walking
> etc.
> I haven't heard what they discovered, if anything.
> Can belief be subject to "rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
> I don't think so.
> But it seems to give us some peace of mind at times.
I prefer knowledge to belief. I find it gives me peace of mind at
times.
computeruser
On Dec 7, computeruser" wrote:
> "tex" wrote ...
> On Dec 7, computeruser wrote:
> > On Dec 7, tex wrote:
> > > Avrarat asks,
>
> > > begin quote>
> > > <ban I ask you again to provide an answer to this 'pointless'
> > > question:
> > > scientist or something. You should be able to answer the question. I
> > > have never received an answer to this question. I wonder why? <end
> > > quote>
>
> > > I'm not sure what one would be trying to measure with "rigorous
> > > scientific (i)nquiry?"
> > > Since i know nothing about Avatar, I'll answer about various analogues
> > > I'm more familiar with.
>
> > > Would Christianity, Islam, Landmark, Buddhism etc. hold up to
> > > "rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
> > > No.
> > > Are you referring to Avatar's claims that they have special
> > > "technology"?
> > > I've heard Landmarkers use this term also.
> > > I don't think the term was used during my est days.
> > > Just marketing bullshit, in my opinion.
>
> > > Here's something you might understand.
> > > One of my clients was recently conducting a study on the effects of
> > > yoga with regard to relaxation, stress relief.
> > > They were comparing it to similar levels of exercise, i.e. walking
> > > etc.
> > > I haven't heard what they discovered, if anything.
> > > Can belief be subject to "rigorous scientific (i)nquiry?"
> > > I don't think so.
> > > But it seems to give us some peace of mind at times.
>
> > Scientific data can be Marketing Bullshit too!
>
>
> > Consider the bogus climate-gate marketing that has been going on; to
> > push more government control upon the unsuspecting masses. This has
Good.
************
He is a fraud.
You may find this valuable:
Marsha Blackburn questions Al Gore's motivations behind supporting cap and
trade legislation because of his investments in "green startups" and his
position as a partner at Kleiner Perkins:
~~~
Follow the money from the bogus cap and trade schemes (which will only hurt
the economy, and send more money to corrupt bureaucrats.)
Here are some links from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Investment_Management
Generation Investment Management LLP (GIM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Climate_Exchange
Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiner_Perkins_Caufield_%26_Byers
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers (KPCB)
Serena Nordstrup
So we might bring in a verdict of "not guilty on the grounds of
excessive exposure to 18th-century enlightenment Deism"?
Caligari
That we may.
;
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not guilty of what????
For the record, Thanksgiving was a thanks to God, not the "producers."
Thankful that there wasn't a drought, a crop blight, a famine, a
plague etc.
"Producers" still have little control over such things.
Serena Nordstrup
Like the thread states: Un-objectivist spirituality.
> For the record, Thanksgiving was a thanks to God, not the "producers."
> Thankful that there wasn't a drought, a crop blight, a famine, a
> plague etc.
> "Producers" still have little control over such things.
Criminals may never ~change~, but the popular festivals may evolve.
Sophomorically
Serena
samvaknin
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - click on these links:
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/npdglance.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders12.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders13.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders14.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq1.html
Other Personality Disorders
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faqpd.html
Pathological Narcissism diagnosed with Other Mental Health Disorders
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq82.html
NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and AsPD (Antisocial
Personality Disorder, Psychopathy, or Sociopathy)
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders16.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html
Cyber (Internet) Narcissists and Psychopaths
HAPPYsamurai
> On Dec 7, 2:53 am, Serena Nordstrup <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 5, 1:02 pm, "computeruser" <ona...@postmaster.invalid> wrote:> Caligari wrote...
> > > > Barbara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpOTDkTsFQ
> > > > Nathaniel:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZUKJjgCqg
>
> > > Thank you for the Links.
>
> > > Did you happen to see this from the November 25, 2009 edition -http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1125/p09s01-coop.html?
> > > Celebrate Thanksgiving the Ayn Rand way: Thank yourself
> > > On Thanksgiving, we should thank ourselves and the other producers who make
> > > the good life possible.
> > > By Debi Ghate
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > It's in the American spirit to overcome challenges,
> > > create great achievements, and enjoy prosperity.
>
> > Un-objectivist spirituality alert?
>
> The consequence of a rational philosophy founded in the U.S.
> Constitution:
perhaps the "science" of the day did not yet view as "self evident"
that africans were members of the same species
>
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
> equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
> Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
> Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
> among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
> governed;..."
did they also "rationally" recognise the right of a man to own slaves?
"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now
existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the
Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a
tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten
dollars for each Person."
a "rational" compromise ?
"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws
thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or
Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But
shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or
Labour may be due."
still at least they weren't communists?
;-)
I know - it is "rational" to work within the dictates of the time -
when appropriate...
>
> There's a generalized, non-specific religious reference in the quote.
> It's difficult to be without spiritual references in writing for all
> -- though Rand is pretty much does in her writing. There are
> religious Libertarians like Ron Paul who are fully Libertarian as
> there are Scientist who are religious but fully acknowledge and use
> Darwinism.
>
> -- C
Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous
monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of
omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a
stick and stone believing it to be God.
Gandhi
HAPPYsamurai
>
> a "rational" compromise ?
>
> "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws
> thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or
> Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But
> shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or
> Labour may be due."
>
> still at least they weren't communists?
> ;-)
>
> I know - it is "rational" to work within the dictates of the time -
> when appropriate...
>
interesting time Rand lived in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee
Serena Nordstrup
<snip>
> Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous
> monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of
> omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a
> stick and stone believing it to be God.
>
> Gandhi
We can safely ignore the insightful comments of a convicted criminal-
Mahatma.
computeruser
What laws did he break?
I do not worship Mahatma as an Ideal man to aspire to. Many around
Landmark Education do, in fact they used to show a clip of the Gandhi
film in the Advanced Course.
I think of his civil disobidience as being what he was most known for.
Are the criminal acts he was convicted of; related to his method of
protest against oppression and tyranny?
tex
> On Jan 13, 3:18 am, Serena Nordstrup <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11, 3:50 pm, HAPPYsamurai <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous
> > > monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of
> > > omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a
> > > stick and stone believing it to be God.
>
> > > Gandhi
>
> > We can safely ignore the insightful comments of a convicted criminal-
> > Mahatma.
>
> What laws did he break?
It's usually her retort when I reference Rick Ross's criminal past.
She will refer to Ghandi, Havel or Mandela.
She probably thought you would get the joke.
At least someone did. ;-)
Serena Nordstrup
> On Jan 13, 3:18 am, Serena Nordstrup <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11, 3:50 pm, HAPPYsamurai <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous
> > > monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of
> > > omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a
> > > stick and stone believing it to be God.
>
> > > Gandhi
>
> > We can safely ignore the insightful comments of a convicted criminal-
> > Mahatma.
>
> What laws did he break?
The laws of the properly constituted governmental authorities in South
Africa and in India, as promulgated by the prescribed methods and
applied impartially by properly-constituted judiciaries. (Not those
wishy-washy universal United-Nations-style laws.)
> I do not worship Mahatma as an Ideal man to aspire to. Many around
> Landmark Education do, in fact they used to show a clip of the Gandhi
> film in the Advanced Course.
>
> I think of his civil disobidience as being what he was most known for.
... and some people may even think of Mr Rick Ross as known for some
activities other than youthful crime-sprees...
> Are the criminal acts he was convicted of; related to his method of
> protest against oppression and tyranny?
Some. But the Law shows neither fear nor favor to hardened criminals
and jailbirds such as the esteemed Mahatma.
Serena Nordstrup
> On Jan 13, 5:15 am, computeruser <cyran...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 3:18 am, Serena Nordstrup <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 11, 3:50 pm, HAPPYsamurai <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > <snip>
>
> > > > Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous
> > > > monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of
> > > > omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a
> > > > stick and stone believing it to be God.
>
> > > > Gandhi
>
> > > We can safely ignore the insightful comments of a convicted criminal-
> > > Mahatma.
>
> > What laws did he break?
>
> It's usually her retort when I reference Rick Ross's criminal past.
> She will refer to Ghandi, Havel or Mandela.
You forgot that criminal jailbird Martin Luther King, Tex. Why, even
his namesake fell foul of the law.
Caligari
Ayn Rand on Donahue Show in 1979, starts with Altruism vs. Rational
Selfishness on video 1 of 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-LpRSbbeA
Caligari
> Barbara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpOTDkTsFQ
> Nathaniel:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZUKJjgCqg
Jerome Tuccille: Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, and the Libertarian
Party's Big Moment: http://current.com/1v7f44c
Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales on Ayn Rand, art, and making money:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxxddBY-Vwo
HAPPYsamurai
damn you and your politeness
taking the focus away from tex's attention on my snidenesss
you are obviously in league with... oh wait caught myself in an AH
you are obviously a lovely person... may blessings rain from the sky
and bless me thrice as much as your kindness
and here's one for free
cos your so COOL !@!!!
when you dribble its because your structural integrity has been
breached
i'm not being snide - this shit is CUTTING EDGE !!!!!!!!!!
Caligari
Ha! thanks.
BTW, what does "AH" mean?
;)
rick...@rickross.com
Disgruntled Landmark Education (LE) “fans” such as “Tex” often post
personal attacks at discussion groups like this one against LE’s
perceived enemies.
There has been some speculation that “Tex” might be either employed by
LE or one of its many “volunteers.”
These personal attacks are an attempt to distort the facts about my
personal and/or professional history in an apparent effort to mislead
the public and obscure the focus of discussion, which is actually LE
(a privately owned for-profit company) and the programs it sells such
as the Forum.
Many of these attacks rely primarily upon excerpted material posted
publicly about me through the Internet by Scientology on its assorted
and/or associated Web sites, such as “Religious Freedom Watch.”
My public response to such attacks has been made available through the
Internet since 1998 and is periodically updated whenever necessary.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien47.html
“Tex” was banned from the Ross Institute of New Jersey message board
some time ago for breaking the rules, e.g. “flaming” (personal
attacks) in an attempt to subvert the discussion there. And he can be
seen as a fairly typical “Internet troll.”
To better understand the antics and tactics of Internet trolls see
http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
Landmark fans often attempt to obscure the facts about LE, such as the
company’s deeply troubled history of bad press, serious complaints
about its courses and related personal injury lawsuits.
See http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html
LE has also never been able to effectively demonstrate that its
courses and seminar weekends (e.g. the Forum) produce any direct and
objectively measurable results.
That is, despite LE’s decades long history and its substantial
resources the company has never funded any meaningful scientific
research to prove its repeated claims that LE courses/programs
actually improve a person’s life.
Instead, LE has chosen to fund customer satisfaction surveys and
polls, which report the subjective feelings and perception of its
graduates.
LE critics have never disputed that the company understands and
employs effective persuasion techniques that can directly affect the
feelings and perception of its program participants.
But a meaningful survey based upon objective results could measure
such things as a sustained higher grade point average, notably lower
divorce rate, increased income and/or less reliance upon professional
counseling over a period of years after completing LE programs.
Subsequently, such a study could then compare the LE graduates
surveyed against an outside control group, which had not attended LE
programs. And then to complete a valid study process the results would
then be submitted for peer-review and subsequently published within a
respected and credible journal.
However, LE has never completed such a process, which used objectively
measurable criteria to prove its claims about improving the lives of
LE participants.
Instead, LE has chosen to use testimonials that offer anecdotal
evidence and personal endorsements based upon subjective opinion to
support its claims.
LE and its fans are unhappy that RI has archived information about its
activities and practices.
RI is a registered nonprofit recognized by the IRS as a tax-exempted
educational charity, and is one of the most visible archives about
controversial groups and movements, some that have been called
“cults.” RI has made information about LE readily accessible through
the Internet.
RI's Web site archives include previously published media reports,
court documents, research and critical comments from past participants
not only LE, but also concerning its immediate predecessor Erhard
Seminar Training (EST), which once featured the same introductory
seminar known as the Forum.
Werner Erhard, formerly known as “Jack” Rosenberg created the Forum.
Erhard’s brother Harry Rosenberg, sister Joan Rosenberg and former
attorney Art Schreiber now run LE.
See http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html
And http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html
And also http://www.rickross.com/groups/forum.html
Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman researched the apparent and
seemingly inherent problems that LGATs most often possess, which has
frequently led to serious complaints and at times personal injury
lawsuits. Cushman wrote a paper about what he called “mass marathon
training.”
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing9.html
The psychologist lists 13 liabilities of such programs, which
includes:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for
leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of
valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral
strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing"
without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual
techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness
techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result
participants may learn more about themselves and less about group
process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time
limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants
to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or
deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse
countertransference reactions.
Additionally Cushman points out four warning signs that an LGAT may
possess, which make it potentially dangerous.
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should
experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when
they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment
skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate
therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a
breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single
pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from
discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a
poor result by, "blaming the victim."
To better understand why LGAT programs like LE are frequently compared
to “coercive persuasion” (commonly called “brainwashing”) the
following paper prepared by sociologist and Stanford University
professor Richard Ofshe may be helpful.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html
Ofshe points out that coercive persuasion can be seen through the
dynamics within a group and cites four frequently observed behaviors:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to
destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment
to stabilize behavior once modified
Anyone interested in seeing just how abusive, controlling and
destructive LE programs can be should watch a Forum filmed in Paris by
hidden camera.
After this report was broadcast nationally on French television, LE
closed its operations in France.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark220.html
LE paid French psychiatrist Jean-Marie Abgrall more than 45,000 euros
to evaluate its training.
But the doctor was quite critical about the company and its practices.
Abrall said, “My critique is of techniques that haven't been mastered
at all. There is no control of a psychologist. They just put anyone in
there, which means that if this guy takes a blow, he leaves alone in a
daze, there's no one to take control for him. They don't exchange
information there's no real inspection of the technique. These guys
aren't trained, as if tomorrow you set up shop as a psychotherapist. I
mean, that's what's shocking.”
LE has often offered the opinion of Dr. Raymond Fowler, a former
president (1995) of the American Psychological Associations (APA) and
Forum graduate to defend its programs. Fowler says that LE isn’t
engaged in “brainwashing.”
However, Fowler is not a noted expert or researcher concerning
coercive persuasion techniques, but rather known for his computer
interpretation of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory
(MMPI).
LE's persistent efforts to silence its critics on the Internet have
attracted the attention of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
See http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/landmark/
It should be noted that though RI has hundreds of group/topic
subsections, the LE subsection remains consistently one of the most
visited within the Web site.
Interestingly, though many of the other groups listed with subsections
are much larger than LE, they most often don’t generate the same level
of daily visits as the LE subsection.
With the possible exception of Scientology, Landmark Education ranks
consistently as one of the most visited subsections for information
within the Web site.
Apparently in response to the use of the RI archive by the general
public for information about LE, the company filed a lawsuit during
2004 in New Jersey federal court against both me personally and RI
claiming “product disparagement.”
Through that lawsuit LE made several claims, including “product
disparagement.”
However, rather than proceed and prove its claims through litigation
LE chose instead to dismiss its own lawsuit in 2005.
See http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000830.html
Landmark Education has a history of what can be seen as harassment
lawsuits seemingly filed to suppress criticism of its programs.
Attorneys at the New Jersey law firm of Lowenstein Sandler have
prepared an introduction and overview of such litigation complete with
links to supporting documents.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark193.html
RI also maintains an active message board that includes thousands of
posts from people affected by controversial groups and movements, some
called “cults” and various related topics.
See http://forum.rickross.com/
LE and other LGATs are the most popular category of discussion at the
message board.
See http://forum.rickross.com/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=91f25d6211a595ab615e9a287b6538ed
At times LE fans like “Tex” have posted at the RI message board under
various anonymous aliases in an apparent attempt to subvert the board
and/or harass those posting there.
The board is moderated and has posted rules, which must be agreed upon
first by any potential participant.
See http://forum.rickross.com/rules.php
LE fans (e.g. “Tex”) have at times violated these rules and
subsequently been banned from the RI message board, such violations
have included posting under more than one name and harassing members
with unwanted spam through the board member’s private messaging
system.
RI is not the only source for critical information about LE available
through the Internet.
For additional information About LE see the following:
http://www.landmarkforumredflags.homestead.com/
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/forum.htm
http://www.religio.de/therapie/landmark/landmark.html#2
For general information about LGATs like LE see the following:
http://home.att.net/~jon.ruth/index.html
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/21/flores.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/tt.BC25.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/l/landmark/
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/main.htm#est
Please excuse the possible repetition of this posted response at
various threads within discussion groups, but it is important to set
the record straight when people posting comments deliberately attempt
to falsely malign me and/or distort the facts in an effort to mislead
the public.
Rick A. Ross
www.rickross.com