Engrams
chris lee
recording of a moment of pain and unconsciousness. It is stored in the
stimulus-response mechanism of (the reactive mind). It is not a
memory.
The term engram was coined by Richard Semon and had previously been
used prior to the inception of Dianetics; Semon defined it as a
"stimulus impression" which could be reactivated by the recurrence of
"the energetic conditions which ruled at the generation of the
engram."[1] It continues to be used in other contexts unrelated to
Hubbard's theories. According to Joseph Winter, M.D., Hubbard had
taken the term "engram" from the 1936 edition of Dorland's Medical
Dictionary for use to describe his own unique concepts (Winter, 1951).
In Hubbard's earliest public writings on Dianetics, (an article
published in the Astounding Science Fiction pulp magazine) [1] he
referred to engrams by the term "Norns". [2]
Dianetics defines an engram as "a mental image picture which is a
recording of a time of physical pain and unconsciousness. It must by
definition have impact or injury as part of its content."[2] Engrams
contain all perceptions present in a moment when pain is experienced
but are not easily available to an individual's awareness because they
are stored in the unconscious (the Reactive Mind). A goal of Dianetics
is to assist a person in confronting such incidents bringing them into
full awareness.
elle...@gmail.com
> In Dianetics and Scientology, an engram is defined as a faithful
> recording of a moment of pain and unconsciousness. It is stored in the
> stimulus-response mechanism of (the reactive mind).
Traumatic or painful "memories," whether conscious, sub, or un, are
far more complex and problematic in their formation and retention than
any quickie/quack cure such as the one scientology presumes to
remedy. (Paradoxically, it's not quickie at all -- rather extensively
time-consuming and expensive.) Long the purview of the witch-doctor
and snake-oil salesman, the bottomless pit of unwanted thoughts,
feelings, and impulses plague most of us to some extent. They are
part and parcel of consciousness and probably exist as survival
mechanisms, though not to the neurotic degree that most people tend to
collect them. Who wouldn't like to forget a lot of things? Who
wouldn't want to be relieved of the memories of all the shameful,
frightening, and remorseful events one accumulates? Who wouldn't love
to dismiss or excuse a lot of bad juju or chalk it up to past problems
beyond our own repair -- wiping the slate clean, so to speak. Many
religions have built empires offering (selling) absolution. That
someone like L. Ron Hubbard or Werner Erhard tapped into this
universal desire isn't so surprising in context. Nor is the fact that
they both made a lot of money doing it.
Ellen
chris lee
I agree with your assertion that Hubbard and Erhard "hyped" these
ideas beyond "belief", but I am a firm believer in the general concept
of repressed trauma and the efficacy of various forms of "talking
cures". I think the est courses were designed to " stir up and run
out" stuck and unresolved emotion. I personally have had two cathartic
experiences , one in a "Be Here Now" seminar and the other in the 6
Day course. Something got contacted that was very deep. I remember
weeping and sobbing,snot, the whole bit. There was nothing in the
"present" time environment to justify it, and I felt alot lighter
after running it out. I have had such experiences outside of formal
sessions as well.
elle...@gmail.com
> I agree with your assertion that Hubbard and Erhard "hyped" these
> ideas beyond "belief", but I am a firm believer in the general concept
> of repressed trauma and the efficacy of various forms of "talking
> cures". I think the est courses were designed to " stir up and run
> out" stuck and unresolved emotion. I personally have had two cathartic
> experiences , one in a "Be Here Now" seminar and the other in the 6
> Day course. Something got contacted that was very deep. I remember
> weeping and sobbing,snot, the whole bit. There was nothing in the
> "present" time environment to justify it, and I felt alot lighter
> after running it out. I have had such experiences outside of formal
> sessions as well.
Check the scientology sites for endless testimonies such as yours.
Landmark and all the others also encourage their followers to
formulate, express, write, post, and disseminate these types of
endorsements. Personal, anecdotal reports are the bread-and-butter of
the ad business and cults have no reason not to capitalize on this
technique. What they won't tell you is that they are practicing
psychology without education, license, experience, or accountability.
They also won't tell you they use your bad memories against you as a
type of emotional blackmail and your good experiences as reinforcement
for your dependency and "fertilizer" for any new crop of prospects.
Nothing new here. It's been going on for centuries. There's a never-
ending supply of psycho-predators and emo-scammers peddling the same
old sludge. Do your homework.
E
Serena Nordstrup
Designed by whom?
And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
emotion"?
tubby Tanner
"Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:fda646d7-4bc7-4c42...@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Serena who gives rats arse about who designed what!!!!
>
> And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
> emotion"?
Who cares.
The question you should be asking is , did it work.!!!!!!!!
Chris has acknowledged that he had two cathartic experiences.
It worked for him, because he dared to place his foot in the water to feel
what it was like.
Something you would never dare to do.
Your'e just to looooooooooogical for that.
So at least give Chris Lee the courtesy of what he felt and expereinced.
cheers
Cheers
tubby Tanner
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cb96354-a077-4698...@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 23, 2:15 pm, chris lee <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with your assertion that Hubbard and Erhard "hyped" these
>> ideas beyond "belief", but I am a firm believer in the general concept
>> of repressed trauma and the efficacy of various forms of "talking
>> cures". I think the est courses were designed to " stir up and run
>> out" stuck and unresolved emotion. I personally have had two cathartic
>> experiences , one in a "Be Here Now" seminar and the other in the 6
>> Day course. Something got contacted that was very deep. I remember
>> weeping and sobbing,snot, the whole bit. There was nothing in the
>> "present" time environment to justify it, and I felt alot lighter
>> after running it out. I have had such experiences outside of formal
>> sessions as well.
>
>
> Check the scientology sites for endless testimonies such as yours.
> Landmark and all the others also encourage their followers to
> formulate, express, write, post, and disseminate these types of
> endorsements. Personal, anecdotal reports are the bread-and-butter of
> the ad business and cults have no reason not to capitalize on this
> technique.
So are you saying that Chris Lee did not have those carthartic moments
he benefited from and got something out of????
What they won't tell you is that they are practicing
> psychology without education, license, experience, or accountability.
Well they have been around for over 20 years + and one would think
they would
have learned a fair bit about their craft. They still survive to your
amazement????
> They also won't tell you they use your bad memories against you as a
> type of emotional blackmail and your good experiences as reinforcement
> for your dependency and "fertilizer" for any new crop of prospects.
Well i don't know who you are talking about here but I never had that
experience.
> Nothing new here. It's been going on for centuries. There's a never-
> ending supply of psycho-predators and emo-scammers peddling the same
> old sludge.
Are you also talking about the professional registered , acknowledged
snakes in
grey suits that have great control over our culture????
I\ll bet you also work with some of those snakes, and I'll bet they
don't belong
to any Cults, but to respectable organisations.
They are everywhere Ellen, so why just single out the Cults??????
Cheers
Do your homework.
He has. He has an open mind because he dared to place his foot in the
clear water
to see what it was like, because he was sick of looking at the mud all
round him.
Cleanses himself so to speak.
>
>
> E
chris lee
Ellen ..oh puh-leez..Psychology without a liscence? Psychology is an
art. Are you going to arrest Bob Dylan? Meryl Streep? Dalai Llama?
Aretha Franklin? Anybody who moves your soul? Psyche-ology is
everybody's business. Nobody at Landmark blackmailed me for anything.
I know they write things down in a file at Scientology but at est
nothing was recorded.
chris lee
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Serena..I don't know who designed it. And the designer didn't know
anything about stuck and unresolved emotion. I humbly withdraw my
statement.
HAPPYsamurai
>
> They are everywhere Ellen, so why just single out the Cults??????
>
ahh the ubiquitous
"2 wrongs make a right" argument
10 points for consistency
tubby Tanner
"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5f990013-f68f-46c9...@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
10 points for consistency
Happ,
What about the rest of the Email. How cool of you to just take a small
portion of it. Must be your Ethics.
Did you have the balls to place your foot in the water since you claim to
be interested in self development philosophies??????
Or are you another serena hiding behind those magnificient Rocks?????
Hope you are well
cheers
Markus Welch
"tubby Tanner" <tub...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4798472f$0$13959$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I seem to recall a former poster invited you or some other to wash his
dishes, as a comparison to some experience.
Serena Nordstrup
> <ellena...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3cb96354-a077-4698...@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 2:15 pm, chris lee <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> I agree with your assertion that Hubbard and Erhard "hyped" these
> >> ideas beyond "belief", but I am a firm believer in the general concept
> >> of repressed trauma and the efficacy of various forms of "talking
> >> cures". I think the est courses were designed to " stir up and run
> >> out" stuck and unresolved emotion. I personally have had two cathartic
> >> experiences , one in a "Be Here Now" seminar and the other in the 6
> >> Day course. Something got contacted that was very deep. I remember
> >> weeping and sobbing,snot, the whole bit. There was nothing in the
> >> "present" time environment to justify it, and I felt alot lighter
> >> after running it out. I have had such experiences outside of formal
> >> sessions as well.
>
> > Check the scientology sites for endless testimonies such as yours.
> > Landmark and all the others also encourage their followers to
> > formulate, express, write, post, and disseminate these types of
> > endorsements. Personal, anecdotal reports are the bread-and-butter of
> > the ad business and cults have no reason not to capitalize on this
> > technique.
>
> So are you saying that Chris Lee did not have those carthartic moments
> he benefited from and got something out of????
From what would you deduce that catharsis does not exist? Why do you
assume Chris benefited from catharsis? What evidence do you have for
any of this, Bruno?
> What they won't tell you is that they are practicing
>
> > psychology without education, license, experience, or accountability.
>
> Well they have been around for over 20 years +
Not as long as the Mafia or as the Kingdom of Belgium.
> and one would think they would
> have learned a fair bit about their craft.
The craft of recruiting neophytes and extracting money? (~landmark~
claims it has no connection with psychology, no?)
> They still survive to your amazement????
Just barely. And ~landmark education~ has to keep desperately fighting
the mounting evidence of its hollowness.
> > They also won't tell you they use your bad memories against you as a
> > type of emotional blackmail and your good experiences as reinforcement
> > for your dependency and "fertilizer" for any new crop of prospects.
>
> Well i don't know who you are talking about here but I never had that
> experience.
You really might start learning some things by bypassing that old
~experience~ bottleneck, Bruno.
> > Nothing new here. It's been going on for centuries. There's a never-
> > ending supply of psycho-predators and emo-scammers peddling the same
> > old sludge.
>
> Are you also talking about the professional registered , acknowledged
> snakes in
> grey suits that have great control over our culture????
>
> I\ll bet you also work with some of those snakes, and I'll bet they
> don't belong
> to any Cults, but to respectable organisations.
>
> They are everywhere Ellen, so why just single out the Cults??????
Pick 'em off one by one, Bruno -- the worst offenders first. A good
strategy.
> Cheers
>
> Do your homework.
>
> He has. He has an open mind because he dared to place his foot in the
> clear water
> to see what it was like, because he was sick of looking at the mud all
> round him.
Like many humans, I've placed feet (both feet) in pools, lakes,
rivers, baths and even oceans. It follows that I have a mind so open
I'll even engage with the folk at the alt.fan.landmark Usenet
newsgroup.
> Cleanses himself so to speak.
The foot represents the mind, symbolically. Feet of clay dissolve
away.
Slipperily
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
> "Serena Nordstrup" <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
Have you ever wondered what makes people human, Bruno? Do you consider
curiosity a valuable trait (even in gossip)?
> > And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
> > emotion"?
>
> Who cares.
Emotional people with an interest in emotions might care, Bruno. Most
people, in other words.
> The question you should be asking is , did it work.!!!!!!!!
Not "how did the est courses work?"?
Not "to what extent did the est courses work?"?
Not "what components of the est courses appeared to work?"?
Not "what can we agree on if we suggest that the est courses 'work'?"?
Or any other of numerous open-ended and potentially even interesting
or meaningful questions...
> Chris has acknowledged that he had two cathartic experiences.
> It worked for him, because he dared to place his foot in the water to feel
> what it was like.
I don't follow. What does venturing have to do with catharsis?
> Something you would never dare to do.
Never?
> Your'e just to looooooooooogical for that.
You would know, Bruno. How would you know?
> So at least give Chris Lee the courtesy of what he felt and expereinced.
Done. And on to the next questions...
Serena Nordstrup
If you don't know who designed the est courses, how can you possibly
know enough about "the designer" to refer to "the designer" in the
singular?
If you don't know who designed the est courses, how can you possibly
know that "the designer" knew nothing "about stuck and unresolved
emotion"?
> I humbly withdraw my statement.
chris lee
I was being sarcastic. I have extensive knowledge about the designers
of the est courses. How many of these names do you recognize?
1. Alexander Everett
2. Stewart Emery
3. Werner Erhard (Jack Rosenberg)
4. Charlene Afremow
5. Michael Murphy
6. L Ron Hubbard
7. Laurel Scheaf
8. Gonneke Spitz
as far as my understanding or conflict and unresolved emotion
how many or these authors and charismatics are you familiar with?
1. Viktor Frankl
2. Sigmund Freud
3. Wilhelm Reich
4. Arthur Janov
5. Alfred Korzybski
6. L Ron Hubbard
7. Carl Jung
8. George Wundt
Your efforts to show me up as stupid are intriguing, I want to return
the favor.
elle...@gmail.com
> I was being sarcastic. I have extensive knowledge about the designers
> of the est courses. How many of these names do you recognize?
> 1. Alexander Everett
> 2. Stewart Emery
> 3. Werner Erhard (Jack Rosenberg)
> 4. Charlene Afremow
> 5. Michael Murphy
> 6. L Ron Hubbard
> 7. Laurel Scheaf
> 8. Gonneke Spitz
> as far as my understanding or conflict and unresolved emotion
> how many or these authors and charismatics are you familiar with?
> 1. Viktor Frankl
> 2. Sigmund Freud
> 3. Wilhelm Reich
> 4. Arthur Janov
> 5. Alfred Korzybski
> 6. L Ron Hubbard
> 7. Carl Jung
> 8. George Wundt
> Your efforts to show me up as stupid are intriguing, I want to return
> the favor.
LOLOL...
I love that you include L. Ron Hubbard in both your lists of
"noteworthy" persons. He was as crackpot as they get, despite your
inclusion of the lesser lights of est histerography. Might as well
include Bozo the Clown.
The fact that you've included him in the second list is demonstrative
of some sort of short in your electrical system or indicative of a
severe malfunction in your ability to concoct lists. Well, there's no
reason here not to conclude that you've given up the very thing most
cult members relinquish -- the ability to think critically.
(Michael Murphy didn't have anything to do with designing est
"courses.")
Ellen
chris lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's your listening, Ellen. I didn't say "noteworthy" as in laudable
or "honorable" just somewhat relevant to the story. Hubbard is
relevant because alot of his ideas are applied in est. Murphy was a
friend/rival/inspiration of Erhard. BTW George Wundt was a trick. He's
the actor from "Cheers". Wilhelm Wundt is the psychologist.
tubby Tanner
You curious?????
Never would have crossed my mind.
Here is Dr. Hamer presenting ground breaking discoveries that could finally
link the Psyche, brain and the organs, the Eternal mind/body question
enigma,
and you immediately side with the orthodox approach, and ignore it.
Curiosity in my mind is looking at natural phenomena which we have no
explanations for whether they are taboo areas or not.
Its clear to me you are more concerned with your priviliged position
in the organisation you work for than doing the hard yards by looking into
controversial. taboo subject areas that may threaten you livelihod or
position.
Nothing wrong with that but at least be honest about it.
>
>> > And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
>> > emotion"?
>>
>> Who cares.
>
> Emotional people with an interest in emotions might care, Bruno. Most
> people, in other words.
What .!!!!! You with ice in your veins feign an interest in emotions????.
Pull the other leg.
>
>> The question you should be asking is , did it work.!!!!!!!!
>
> Not "how did the est courses work?"?
>
> Not "to what extent did the est courses work?"?
>
> Not "what components of the est courses appeared to work?"?
>
> Not "what can we agree on if we suggest that the est courses 'work'?"?
>
> Or any other of numerous open-ended and potentially even interesting
> or meaningful questions...
Yu are a mind fuk Serena , and hypocrite.
The above questions you put forth have never been asked by you.
Chriss lee , Dakota and others have constantly tried to explore what
happened
however your'e already listening know all approach has always killed
the conversation.
You have hardly ever asked any interesting or meaniful questions to dvelve
into why people received any benefits from the various workshops they have
attended.
Our experiences and perceptions were all wrong in your eyes and you have
never
really wanted to explore all those nuances and anomolies that happen in a
group setting.
>
>> Chris has acknowledged that he had two cathartic experiences.
>> It worked for him, because he dared to place his foot in the water to
>> feel
>> what it was like.
>
> I don't follow. What does venturing have to do with catharsis?
>
>> Something you would never dare to do.
>
> Never?
>
>> Your'e just to looooooooooogical for that.
>
> You would know, Bruno. How would you know?
Your'e behaviour on this is a prime example that shows who you are.?
>
>> So at least give Chris Lee the courtesy of what he felt and
>> expereinced.
>
> Done. And on to the next questions...
What for??
You know the answer so why pursue it any further.
I'm dreaming of auditing Serena sung to the tune of Bing Crosbie's White
Christmas.
cheers
Serena Nordstrup
> You curious?????
Non sequitur.
> Never would have crossed my mind.
Until now, when you can seize your latest fantasy as a stick for
beating about the bush.
> Here is Dr. Hamer presenting ground breaking discoveries that could finally
> link the Psyche, brain and the organs, the Eternal mind/body question
> enigma,
> and you immediately side with the orthodox approach, and ignore it.
I understood you to ask my opinion about some logic. I gave my
opinion. Stop whining.
> Curiosity in my mind is looking at natural phenomena which we have no
> explanations for whether they are taboo areas or not.
Curiosity can look at unnatural stuff too -- like ~landmark
education~. It can re-address things for which we think we may have
explanations.
I trust you do not regard the alleged designing of the est course as a
taboo area.
> Its clear to me you are more concerned with your priviliged position
> in the organisation you work for than doing the hard yards by looking into
> controversial. taboo subject areas that may threaten you livelihod or
> position.
I have no idea what this refers too. You appear to assume that I have
employment in an organization and a privileged position in said
organization. You fantasized all this, right?
> Nothing wrong with that but at least be honest about it.
I could honestly tell you about my pets at the age of 4. What
relevance would that have here?
> >> > And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
> >> > emotion"?
And what did the designer(s) know about "stuck and unresolved
emotion", Bruno?
> >> Who cares.
>
> > Emotional people with an interest in emotions might care, Bruno. Most
> > people, in other words.
>
> What .!!!!! You with ice in your veins feign an interest in emotions????.
One observes a few of them about.
> Pull the other leg.
>
>
>
> >> The question you should be asking is , did it work.!!!!!!!!
>
> > Not "how did the est courses work?"?
>
> > Not "to what extent did the est courses work?"?
>
> > Not "what components of the est courses appeared to work?"?
>
> > Not "what can we agree on if we suggest that the est courses 'work'?"?
>
> > Or any other of numerous open-ended and potentially even interesting
> > or meaningful questions...
>
> Yu are a mind fuk Serena , and hypocrite.
Why, thank you, Bruno. Now tell me, why did you suddenly ~choose~ to
~share~ those pearls of wisdom at this time?
> The above questions you put forth have never been asked by you.
Of course not. I have busily asked certain other questions. I stll
await answers on many of them.
> Chriss lee , Dakota and others have constantly tried to explore what
> happened
> however your'e already listening know all approach has always killed
> the conversation.
Well well. Perhaps my topics lack intrinsic interest. Unlike the
prescribed topics that you feel I "should" address.
> You have hardly ever asked any interesting or meaniful questions to dvelve
> into why people received any benefits from the various workshops they have
> attended.
Should I ask more questions? Will a scattergun approach to
questioning eventually cover topics you approve of?
> Our experiences and perceptions were all wrong in your eyes and you have
> never
> really wanted to explore all those nuances and anomolies that happen in a
> group setting.
My legitimate topics of interest do not always meet with your
approval. Tough.
> >> Chris has acknowledged that he had two cathartic experiences.
> >> It worked for him, because he dared to place his foot in the water to
> >> feel
> >> what it was like.
>
> > I don't follow. What does venturing have to do with catharsis?
And what _does_ venturing have to do with catharsis, Bruno?
> >> Something you would never dare to do.
>
> > Never?
Never, Bruno?
> >> Your'e just to looooooooooogical for that.
>
> > You would know, Bruno. How would you know?
>
> Your'e behaviour on this is a prime example that shows who you are.?
Have you balanced this against the available counter-examples and the
unavailable counter-examples?
> >> So at least give Chris Lee the courtesy of what he felt and
> >> expereinced.
>
> > Done. And on to the next questions...
>
> What for??
> You know the answer so why pursue it any further.
I suspect more than one answer may exist. I don't know.
> I'm dreaming of auditing Serena sung to the tune of Bing Crosbie's White
> Christmas.
It doesn't scan.
Serena Nordstrup
> I was being sarcastic.
And that lasted how long?
> I have extensive knowledge about the designers
> of the est courses.
Good for you.
How many of these names do you recognize?
> 1. Alexander Everett
> 2. Stewart Emery
> 3. Werner Erhard (Jack Rosenberg)
> 4. Charlene Afremow
> 5. Michael Murphy
> 6. L Ron Hubbard
> 7. Laurel Scheaf
> 8. Gonneke Spitz
I recognize all those names except Spitz -- you may have meant
"Gonneke Spits".
But to return to the question: who designed the est courses?
> as far as my understanding or conflict and unresolved emotion
> how many or these authors and charismatics are you familiar with?
> 1. Viktor Frankl
> 2. Sigmund Freud
> 3. Wilhelm Reich
> 4. Arthur Janov
> 5. Alfred Korzybski
> 6. L Ron Hubbard
> 7. Carl Jung
> 8. George Wundt
I don't see what your own understanding of conflict and unresolved
emotion has to do with the question about whoever designed the est
courses knowing "about stuck and unresolved emotion"...
I recognize most of your second list of names as well, but wouldn't
claim familiarity even with the ones I have read.
> Your efforts to show me up as stupid are intriguing, I want to return
> the favor.
Thanks!
Now to return to the other question: what did the designer(s) of the
est course know "about stuck and unresolved emotion"?
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Relevant -- yes. What has this to do with the design of the est
courses?
> Murphy was a friend/rival/inspiration of Erhard.
What has this to do with the design of the est courses?
>BTW George Wundt was a trick. He's
> the actor from "Cheers". Wilhelm Wundt is the psychologist.
What have these facts and claims to do with the design of the est
courses?
Simpatice
Serena
chris lee
Serena Nordstrup
> Alot, everything.
George Wendt (rather than Wundt), an actor in "Cheers" (1982 - 1993),
has "everything" to do with the design of the est courses in the 1970s
and early 1980s?
Perhaps you can explain this claim.
> But what do you care?
I have an interest in the way in which the est courses got designed.
You have stated that you "have extensive knowledge about the designers
of the est courses." Accordingly, I put questions about this topic to
you. I would expect you to have the knowledge to give straightforward
answers or simple "don't know"s.
Now, to return to the matter in hand. You have stated: 'I think the
est courses were designed to " stir up and run out" stuck and
unresolved emotion.'
Who designed the est courses, Chris?
And what background did the designer(s) have in the study and
addressing of "stuck and unresolved emotion"?
Simpatice
Serena
chris lee
those names and see what I am talking about.
HAPPYsamurai
> Alot, everything. But what do you care?
>
you mention Korbinski
and then answer a WHAT question with -- "a lot"
if it was a HOW MUCH question -- it would be appropriate
I mention this more in jest...
as for Hubbard - i think its noteworthy to put him in the context of
the time in which he lived
the SS conducted psychological experiments on the concentration camp
victims
Crowley and madame besant where the previous generation
two world wars
Jack Parson's a rocket sceintist and witchy poo type
these where times when certain personality types fell into a bizarre
exploration of POWER
have you seen the 60s bbc interview with L Ron [commadore ron] on the
"ship"
sure he probably sensed they were out to "get him" - but then why
agree to the interview...
listen to what he says - its all gobble de gook
its not like listening to joseph campbell - who was trying to point
people in a positive direction in exploring their personal growth, or
Tolle who can also present it logically [sorry bruno]
there may be some common ground in the study of POWER and the study of
FREEDOM
but they are two different INTENTIONS - which lead to differences
I leave you to your own conclusions Mr Lee
i did like your "psychology as art" statement
for me if you give kids a good loving inteligent family environment
you would remove a lot of need for psychology as a profession
chris lee
because I GOT that extensive knowledge thru EXTENSIVE research. I
could report it to you but why? first of all it would take alot of
work to spit out the "butt ends " of all of that research but why
would I go thru all of that effort for YOU? You have never shown
yourself to be genuinely interested in the topic. Google all of those
names and those two titles and do the work yourself if you are
"sincerely" interested, which I doubt you are.
tubby Tanner
discover any information that may be relevant or interesting on her part.
She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long which
she fails to disclose.
Pity .
cheers
"chris lee" <chrislee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:626772a2-9bc6-435e...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Serena Nordstrup
Or perhaps you can't explain this claim...
> > > But what do you care?
>
> > I have an interest in the way in which the est courses got designed.
> > You have stated that you "have extensive knowledge about the designers
> > of the est courses." Accordingly, I put questions about this topic to
> > you. I would expect you to have the knowledge to give straightforward
> > answers or simple "don't know"s.
>
> > Now, to return to the matter in hand. You have stated: 'I think the
> > est courses were designed to " stir up and run out" stuck and
> > unresolved emotion.'
>
> > Who designed the est courses, Chris?
>
> > And what background did the designer(s) have in the study and
> > addressing of "stuck and unresolved emotion"?
> because I GOT that extensive knowledge thru EXTENSIVE research. I
> could report it to you but why?
So much for ~sharing~.
> first of all it would take alot of
> work to spit out the "butt ends " of all of that research
You could give the short answers (one sentence per question, perhaps)
and I could then help you out with the "butt ends" by asking any
supplementary questions as required.
> but why would I go thru all of that effort for YOU?
You need not think of it as efforting for me. Think of writing a
couple of sentences as efforting for the untold numbers of curious
drive-by lurkers in our little news-group..
> You have never shown yourself to be genuinely interested in the topic.
Never, never, never! Only ungenuine fascination here! (Which of the
topics do you have in mind?)
> Google all of those
> names and those two titles and do the work yourself if you are
> "sincerely" interested, which I doubt you are.
Do Google and the two books make any claim to having "extensive
knowledge about the designers of the est courses" -- the way you did?
Can I trust them rather than you? (I hear so many things about the
allegedly shoddy research of Pressman....)
Looking forward to further deepening of our knowledge of some of these
topics,
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
> "chris lee" <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:626772a2-9bc6-435e...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> Good point Chris , it seems there was never any interest to pursue or
> discover any information that may be relevant or interesting on her part.
Who determines what I find relevant and/or interesting, Bruno? How
many times must I repeatedly ask simple and straightforward questions
if the guardians of rosenbergism deem them the "wrong", taboo-
breaching questions?
> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long which
> she fails to disclose.
In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
all its workshops?
> Pity .
Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
> cheers
But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the world
as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some of
those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of what
happened in ~the past~ ?
Slimily
Serena
tubby Tanner
The questions you ask Serena are insipid,stale and souring.
They seem to be nit pick rather than go for the core values of the topic.
Some natural experiences are carthartic and have value to the person
affected and often cannot be explained or rationalised in detail to other
people very easily.
If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before we
accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical dissertations
we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather than
seeking more explanations for further discussions.
You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in this
group.
Can you tell us what it is????
.
>
>> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long
>> which
>> she fails to disclose.
>
> In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
> ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
> all its workshops?
No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your lackluster
perfomance
in this newgroup.
Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
>
>> Pity .
>
> Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot however
time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors of my
perceptions about LEC.
I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it to
others
for their perusal.
>
>> cheers
>
> But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the world
> as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some of
> those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of what
> happened in ~the past~ ?
Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses. I observed the
courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free spirit
of communications between many of the participants.
The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats what I
enjoyed most.
We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
behind.
Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so much
desire.
I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of the
closet .
You could be stuck in a time warp.
Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
Please send photo before appointment, otherwise your journey may be
wasted.
You claim I " whine" , but could you imagine both of us whining
toghether??????
Wouldn't work!!!!!
cheers and I hope you are in good health.
>
> Slimily
> Serena
chris lee
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I could, but real communication is a two way street. You stick your
neck out a bit and show your hand. Why do you want to know? What
background knowledge do YOU know about the subject. I don't want to
respond to a "gimmick".
Tex
And she isn't interested in having a real discussion on the topic.
I once observed that most "critics" were most likely the "victims" of the
overbearing "enroller," hence the antipathy towards Landmark and some of
their droids.
I believe Serena did say something like, "well obviously," or something to
that nature.
It could have been a friend, family member, co-worker etc.
The clumsily highly "intentional" enrollment pitch can make people enemies
of Landmark for life.
HAPPYsamurai
> because I GOT that extensive knowledge thru EXTENSIVE research. I
> could report it to you but why? first of all it would take alot of
> work to spit out the "butt ends " of all of that research but why
> would I go thru all of that effort for YOU? You have never shown
> yourself to be genuinely interested in the topic. Google all of those
> names and those two titles and do the work yourself if you are
> "sincerely" interested, which I doubt you are.
>
i have the same problem with Tex
there is always some "effort" required in communicating with him in a
way he will respond cooperatively
[no disrespect intended Tex]
as socrates said
are we debating as a mutual exploration of truth or are we showing how
good we are at scoring points
we can play tennis here where we slam the ball back
or we can help by hitting the ball in a way the other person can
respond
one gets tired of serving lollies only to have them slammed back in
your face
ie if you and I are here to develop a rapor - its hard when people
split hairs - before a mutual set of reference points have been
defined
as you say psychology is an art
the term ego in one school can be a totally different concept from the
same term used in another school
good luck
elle...@gmail.com
> The clumsily highly "intentional" enrollment pitch can make people enemies
> of Landmark for life.
Good grief...
Another attempt to minimize from our inveterate dissembler. Another
attempt to contain with imaginary trivialization. Another attempt to
deflect from the real criticism and real danger. Another attempt a
"damage control" with our small audience of zealots.
I imagine you think you know what you're doing, "Tex," but there are
others who might make the mistake of taking you seriously. You don't
know your a** from a you-know-what.
At best, Landmark is a silly waste of time and resource for anyone who
needs real help, real advice, real guidance, real therapy, or real
education. It is amateur psychology practiced by hucksters who have
no formal licensing, little education, dodgy "experience" leading
Landmark "courses," and no accountability save to their higher-ups at
Landmark. At worst it ruins lives by clumsily messing with people's
basic character and personality traits. They may be right or correct
or legitimate on (?) half or even most of what they put out as content
but that portion, whatever it is, is well and thoroughly twisted by
the disastrous remainder that contaminates it in the same way liars
have been hiding their deeds since humans learned to speak -- sow your
lies within the truth and people will swallow the whole thing.
Wake up, "Tex." Landmark destroys people's minds. It turns them into
idiots. The few who manage to escape are probably still affected to
some degree unless they go through deprogramming or deprogram
themselves. Who knows how many strange ideas may be hiding within the
garbage pile of their Landmark "educational" experience.
You are a fool.
Ellen
chris lee
damn, Ellen..don't hold back baby..so do you like the course or
not ..? ;)
Tex
"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4894e92f-c52f-42f8...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On 28 Jan, 15:43, chris lee <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> because I GOT that extensive knowledge thru EXTENSIVE research. I
>> could report it to you but why? first of all it would take alot of
>> work to spit out the "butt ends " of all of that research but why
>> would I go thru all of that effort for YOU? You have never shown
>> yourself to be genuinely interested in the topic. Google all of those
>> names and those two titles and do the work yourself if you are
>> "sincerely" interested, which I doubt you are.
>>
> FAIR POINT
>
> i have the same problem with Tex
>
> there is always some "effort" required in communicating with him in a way
> he will respond cooperatively
Just talk in an honest, direct way, Hap.
Don't expect to be taken seriously if you post riddles in haiku form.
I've seen you write, coherent, cogent sentences and paragraphs so I know you
can do it.
By the way, I took the est Training in 1982 in Hollywood, Florida.
I was briefly involved in assisting, including the GSLP and took two
seminars.
I ended my "participation" with est about mid-way through the GSLP program.
So what is your interest in est/Landmark?
Simple question, really.
Tex
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ebd95563-1998-41bf...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 28, 8:35 am, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The clumsily highly "intentional" enrollment pitch can make people
>> enemies
>> of Landmark for life.
>
> Good grief...
>
> Another attempt to minimize from our inveterate dissembler. Another
> attempt to contain with imaginary trivialization. Another attempt to
> deflect from the real criticism and real danger. Another attempt a
> "damage control" with our small audience of zealots.
That wasn't my intention at all, Ellen.
You snipped the context of the above sentence.
As the church lady would say, "how conveeeeeenient!!!"
>
> I imagine you think you know what you're doing, "Tex," but there are
> others who might make the mistake of taking you seriously. You don't
> know your a** from a you-know-what.
>
> At best, Landmark is a silly waste of time and resource for anyone who
> needs real help, real advice, real guidance, real therapy, or real
> education.
I'd say that's probably true.
It is amateur psychology practiced by hucksters who have
> no formal licensing, little education, dodgy "experience" leading
> Landmark "courses," and no accountability save to their higher-ups at
> Landmark. At worst it ruins lives by clumsily messing with people's
> basic character and personality traits. They may be right or correct
> or legitimate on (?) half or even most of what they put out as content
> but that portion, whatever it is, is well and thoroughly twisted by
> the disastrous remainder that contaminates it in the same way liars
> have been hiding their deeds since humans learned to speak -- sow your
> lies within the truth and people will swallow the whole thing.
That's a bit of a ramble, Ellen.
>
> Wake up, "Tex." Landmark destroys people's minds. It turns them into
> idiots.
This is where your hyperbole turns you into a comic book character.
Idiots some times take est or Landmark.
Then they're "transformed" idiots. :-)
Smart people are still smart after Landmark, unless of course they become
"brainwashed."
> The few who manage to escape are probably still affected to some degree
> unless they go through deprogramming or deprogram
> themselves.
Deprogramming?
Like going to a two time convicted felon with nothing more than high school
education and a history of scamming business partners and relatives?
http://rickross.com/help.html
That kind of "deprogramming?"
Many of the Landmark Forum Leaders have PhDs, MDs, or other advanced
degrees.
I'd trust Landmark more than these "deprogrammers," who are charlatan
looking to make a buck.
The below is a part of Dr. Nancy Ammerman's Justice Department report on the
Waco massacre.
Rick Ross, the "deprogrammer," later labeled Professor Ammerman of Boston
University and Yale University, a "cult apologist."
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/bookshelf/ammerman_article1.html
In their attempt to build a case against the Branch Davidians, BATF did
interview persons who were former members of the group and at least one
person who had "deprogrammed" a group member. Mr. Rick Ross, who often works
in conjunction with the Cult Awareness Network (CAN), has been quoted as
saying that he was "consulted" by the BATF. My suspicion is that he was
merely one among many the BATF interviewed in its background checks on the
group and on Koresh. However, it is unclear how information gained from him
was evaluated. The Network and Mr. Ross have a direct ideological (and
financial) interest in arousing suspicion and antagonism against what they
call "cults". These same persons seem to have been major sources for the
series of stories run by the Waco newspaper, beginning February 27. It seems
clear that people within the "anti-cult" community had targeted the Branch
Davidians for attention.
Although these people often call themselves "cult experts," they are
certainly not recognized as such by the academic community. The activities
of the CAN are seen by the National Council of Churches (among others) as a
danger to religious liberty, and deprogramming tactics have been
increasingly found to fall outside the law. At the very least, Mr. Ross and
any ex-members he was associated with should have been seen as questionable
sources of information. Having no access to information from the larger
social science community, however, BATF had no way to put in perspective
what they may have heard from angry ex-members and eager deprogrammers.
Eager deprogrammers indeed.
> Who knows how many strange ideas may be hiding within the garbage pile of
> their Landmark "educational" experience.
Who knows how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, Ellen? ;-)
elle...@gmail.com
> Deprogramming?
> Like going to a two time convicted felon with nothing more than high school
> education and a history of scamming business partners and relatives?http://rickross.com/help.html
> That kind of "deprogramming?"
> Many of the Landmark Forum Leaders have PhDs, MDs, or other advanced
> degrees.
> I'd trust Landmark more than these "deprogrammers," who are charlatan
> looking to make a buck.
Of course you would. That's why you're here. Of course you'd profess
to trust Landmark, who are the real charlatans out to make a buck, by
the way. Most deprogrammers don't get paid much or get paid very
little. Many work for nothing when bankrupt cult victims wash up on
the shore with their pockets emptied. The whole field of
deprogramming has been led by ex-cult members and cult victims, who
make the best deprogrammers. You are just looking for any excuse to
trot out your tiresome campaign against Rick Ross. Anyone interested
in deprogramming from Landmark can consult Carol Giambalvo, who was a
follower of Werner Erhard.
http://members.aol.com/carol2180/index.htm
Ellen
Tex
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7d5f611-77d1-47b5...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 28, 4:57 pm, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Deprogramming?
>> Like going to a two time convicted felon with nothing more than high
>> school
>> education and a history of scamming business partners and
>> relatives?http://rickross.com/help.html
>> That kind of "deprogramming?"
>> Many of the Landmark Forum Leaders have PhDs, MDs, or other advanced
>> degrees.
>> I'd trust Landmark more than these "deprogrammers," who are charlatan
>> looking to make a buck.
>
>
> Of course you would. That's why you're here. Of course you'd profess to
> trust Landmark, who are the real charlatans out to make a buck, by
> the way.
I said I'd trust Landmark mor than the criminal "deprogrammers."
I don't trust either.
> Most deprogrammers don't get paid much or get paid very little.
That's good, as it's a fraudulent profession.
> Many work for nothing when bankrupt cult victims wash up on the shore with
> their pockets emptied. The whole field of
> deprogramming has been led by ex-cult members and cult victims, who make
> the best deprogrammers.
That excludes Rick Ross then.
I'm more inclined to trust this group.
> You are just looking for any excuse to trot out your tiresome campaign
against Rick Ross. Anyone interested
> in deprogramming from Landmark can consult Carol Giambalvo, who was a
> follower of Werner Erhard.
Carol and I have a lot in common. I got away from it much more quickly than
she did though.
Never gave a dime to the Hunger Project.
It just seemed like a scam to me.
Most people don't need to be "deprogrammed" or reprogrammed or any other
such nonsense.
I always did wonder about those few with the glassy-eyed stare and the
shit-eating smile though. ;-)
>
> http://members.aol.com/carol2180/index.htm
>
>
>
> Ellen
>
>
>
tubby Tanner
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ebd95563-1998-41bf...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 28, 8:35 am, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The clumsily highly "intentional" enrollment pitch can make people
>> enemies
>> of Landmark for life.
>
> Good grief...
>
> Another attempt to minimize from our inveterate dissembler. Another
> attempt to contain with imaginary trivialization. Another attempt to
> deflect from the real criticism and real danger. Another attempt a
> "damage control" with our small audience of zealots.
>
> I imagine you think you know what you're doing, "Tex," but there are
> others who might make the mistake of taking you seriously. You don't
> know your a** from a you-know-what.
>
> At best, Landmark is a silly waste of time and resource for anyone who
> needs real help, real advice, real guidance, real therapy, or real
> education. It is amateur psychology practiced by hucksters who have
> no formal licensing, little education, dodgy "experience" leading
> Landmark "courses," and no accountability save to their higher-ups at
> Landmark. At worst it ruins lives by clumsily messing with people's
> basic character and personality traits. They may be right or correct
> or legitimate on (?) half or even most of what they put out as content
> but that portion, whatever it is, is well and thoroughly twisted by
> the disastrous remainder that contaminates it in the same way liars
> have been hiding their deeds since humans learned to speak -- sow your
> lies within the truth and people will swallow the whole thing.
Ellen can you briefly tell us the parts that " clumsily mess with people
basic character
and personality traits"
How does it do this??????
Thats a new one on me.??????????
>
> Wake up, "Tex." Landmark destroys people's minds. It turns them into
> idiots. The few who manage to escape are probably still affected to
> some degree unless they go through deprogramming or deprogram
> themselves. Who knows how many strange ideas may be hiding within the
> garbage pile of their Landmark "educational" experience.
>
> You are a fool.
and what are you Ellena of Troy,, the wise one???????
cheers
>
>
> Ellen
Serena Nordstrup
Good! Please do so.
> but real communication is a two way street. You stick your
> neck out a bit and show your hand.
I have zero interest in your weary platitudes about ~communication~ or
your sad cliches od admonishment.
> Why do you want to know?
You stated: 'I think the est courses were designed to " stir up and
run
out" stuck and unresolved emotion'. I want to examine the accuracy and
basis of this belief of yours; accordingly I ask you about the
matter.When you claim to "have extensive knowledge about the designers
of the est courses" I become persuaded that I have found the right
person for my questions. (And when I meet with prevarication, I focus
upon your ~word~.)
> What background knowledge do YOU know about the subject.
No need for a background! The information about the designer(s) of the
est courses hardly counts as esoteric knowledge... (or does it?)
Nevertheless: I have greater familiarty with WE&A and ~landmark
education~ and even the so-called "Hunger Project" than with est. But
as a denizen of this newsgroup for many years (check the archives!) I
have heard something about est the org and est the courses. And I have
human curiosity.
> I don't want to respond to a "gimmick".
Whatever your concerns, you've started to respond. No need for
reluctance now.
I have two straightforward questions for you:
Who designed the est courses?
What background did the designer(s) have in the study and addressing
of "stuck and unresolved emotion"?
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
> "Serena Nordstrup" <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
All the more impetus to answer them once and for all.
> They seem to be nit pick rather than go for the core values of the topic.
They may seem that way if someone has narrow and closed preconceptions
about what constitutes "core values" -- and about what actual topic we
have in train.
> Some natural experiences are carthartic and have value to the person
> affected and often cannot be explained or rationalised in detail to other
> people very easily.
Accepted. But that wouldn't make them taboo subjects. However, I have
asked unrelated questions, as you will have observed.
> If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before we
> accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical dissertations
> we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
> You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
I think you mean rainy Queensland this month, Bruno.
> So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather than
> seeking more explanations for further discussions.
If you find my guiding methods distasteful and my rates unfair you may
care to hire alternative guides.
> You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in this
> group.
That would explain it. I'll just go back to asking questions.
> Can you tell us what it is????
No -- no idea.
> >> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long
> >> which
> >> she fails to disclose.
>
> > In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
> > ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
> > all its workshops?
>
> No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your lackluster
> perfomance
> in this newgroup.
If you haven't actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar, do you have
the right to speculate about Serena?
> Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
Nothing to ~get~, Bruno.
> >> Pity .
>
> > Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
>
> Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot however
> time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors of my
> perceptions about LEC.
>
> I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it to
> others
> for their perusal.
No doubt you enjoy riding. Have you studied systems intelligence?
> >> cheers
>
> > But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the world
> > as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some of
> > those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of what
> > happened in ~the past~ ?
>
> Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses.
Don't let Tex hear you say that. What if some sort of criminal
connection got associated with the person(s) doing the designing?
> I observed the
> courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free spirit
> of communications between many of the participants.
No gratitude for the designer(s), then?
> The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats what I
> enjoyed most.
You didn't feel tempted to go for any presumed super-ur-catharsis
lurking behind the designing of the ~landmark education~ courses and
workshops?
> We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
>
> We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
> behind.
Just fast-moving rocks, Bruno: pre-fossilized assemblages of
chemicals . Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
island" ?
> Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so much
> desire.
I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich knows about multi-variant
statistical analysis...
> I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of the
> closet .
I urge you to investigate the source and accuracy of your feeling.
> You could be stuck in a time warp.
True. I don't think de-programmers deal with time-warps. Does
~landmark~ have the expertise touted by the Co$ in this arena?
> Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
More reliable than breast-enlargement cream?
> Please send photo before appointment, otherwise your journey may be
> wasted.
>
> You claim I " whine" , but could you imagine both of us whining
> toghether??????
>
> Wouldn't work!!!!!
Just think of some of the great whiners of the past like Jefferson and
Lincoln and Luther!
> cheers and I hope you are in good health.
If I feel like whining about my body, I know I can whine to you,
Bruno.
Slipperily
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
> "chris lee" <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
That sounds very vague, Tex. Even if it were true, I'd regard it as a
good example of what I think of as the Tonon-effect: one says
something innocent or general, and the next minute one gets
characterized as a passionate believer in that particular heresy.
> It could have been a friend, family member, co-worker etc.
Supporting speculation to purportedly back up speculation. You could
do cold reading, Tex!
> The clumsily highly "intentional" enrollment pitch can make people enemies
> of Landmark for life.
... and given the importance of ~enrolment~ in the landmark~ paradigm,
one might find a lot of enemies. Which one does. QED.
Serena Nordstrup
> <ellena...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d7d5f611-77d1-47b5...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 28, 4:57 pm, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Deprogramming?
> >> Like going to a two time convicted felon with nothing more than high
> >> school
> >> education and a history of scamming business partners and
> >> relatives?http://rickross.com/help.html
> >> That kind of "deprogramming?"
> >> Many of the Landmark Forum Leaders have PhDs, MDs, or other advanced
> >> degrees.
> >> I'd trust Landmark more than these "deprogrammers," who are charlatan
> >> looking to make a buck.
>
> > Of course you would. That's why you're here. Of course you'd profess to
> > trust Landmark, who are the real charlatans out to make a buck, by
> > the way.
>
> I said I'd trust Landmark mor than the criminal "deprogrammers."
> I don't trust either.
>
> > Most deprogrammers don't get paid much or get paid very little.
>
> That's good, as it's a fraudulent profession.
Some professions take a while to get recognized -- engineering, for
example. Give deprogramming another couple of centuries to replace
exorcists.
tubby Tanner
Right however your approach and behaviour is untrustworthy, and as
Chris remarked why should he do all the research required when you have no
interest in the topic.
Can't you see that???????
>
>> If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before we
>> accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical dissertations
>> we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
>
> And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
> accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
>
>> You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
>
> I think you mean rainy Queensland this month, Bruno.
>
>> So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather than
>> seeking more explanations for further discussions.
>
> If you find my guiding methods distasteful and my rates unfair you may
> care to hire alternative guides.
Not worth the effort.
I have noticed Chris lee and Dakota, more experienced people than myself
wither on the vine talking to you, so whats the point.
>
>> You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in this
>> group.
>
> That would explain it. I'll just go back to asking questions.
Is it too much to ask any of you Ranters why you are here????
What your real agenda is??????
And why is that off topic???????
>
>> Can you tell us what it is????
>
> No -- no idea.
Does the ice and Cynicism stop you from seeing things????
>
>> >> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long
>> >> which
>> >> she fails to disclose.
>>
>> > In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
>> > ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
>> > all its workshops?
>>
>> No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your lackluster
>> perfomance
>> in this newgroup.
>
> If you haven't actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar, do you have
> the right to speculate about Serena?
Yes I do, in the same manner you speculate about the Forum workshop.
I agree its not in the spirit of having an open mind, however since you
also
play this game, its now convenient for me to join you.
Is that a problem for you?????
>
>> Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
>
> Nothing to ~get~, Bruno.
You feel the cold UHHHH.
>
>> >> Pity .
>>
>> > Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
>>
>> Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot
>> however
>> time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors of
>> my
>> perceptions about LEC.
>>
>> I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it to
>> others
>> for their perusal.
>
> No doubt you enjoy riding. Have you studied systems intelligence?
No to dry for me.
I like to deal with real people and I think thats what I am good at.
No other talents of course apart from having married well.
>
>> >> cheers
>>
>> > But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the world
>> > as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some of
>> > those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of what
>> > happened in ~the past~ ?
>>
>> Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses.
>
> Don't let Tex hear you say that. What if some sort of criminal
> connection got associated with the person(s) doing the designing?
Tex can handle that.
We can agree to disagree and thats okay.
I certainly can't do that with you though.
I feel I have been cheated and I haven;t been able figure out how.
>
>> I observed the
>> courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free
>> spirit
>> of communications between many of the participants.
>
> No gratitude for the designer(s), then?
Yes , at times I thought them as great innovators whoever they were.
>
>> The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats what I
>> enjoyed most.
>
> You didn't feel tempted to go for any presumed super-ur-catharsis
> lurking behind the designing of the ~landmark education~ courses and
> workshops?
Yes I did and thats why I assisted to try to understand the workings
of the organisation.
Looking back it was certainly a much smoother and polished presentation
than anyone here has ever critically discussed.
Ellena of Troy can speculate for an eternity why the organisation still
thrives
because she has never done the neccessary homework to see with her
own eyes how people can get sucked in.
Her crude deprogramming approach is similar to using chemotherapy in the
treatment of Cancer with its success rate of 2% being hidden from the
potential sacrificial lamb being treated.
>
>> We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
>>
>> We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
>> behind.
>
> Just fast-moving rocks, Bruno: pre-fossilized assemblages of
> chemicals . Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
> island" ?
>
>> Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so much
>> desire.
>
> I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich knows about multi-variant
> statistical analysis...
You were the one asking for statistical analysis which you so looogically
desired, and when tex supplied them, you suddenly weren't interested.
>
>> I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of the
>> closet .
>
> I urge you to investigate the source and accuracy of your feeling.
I have its real for me.
>
>> You could be stuck in a time warp.
>
> True. I don't think de-programmers deal with time-warps. Does
> ~landmark~ have the expertise touted by the Co$ in this arena?
No.
However they do have some expertise to de ice your veins so you can
possibly get in touch with your emotions, for you to experience what its
like to be a sentient being.
>
>> Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
>
> More reliable than breast-enlargement cream?
Can't answer that one. I never did try it and I only got one complaint in
the
times I was selling it. I did offer the client the return of my commision.
So there is some interest for you to try the auditing????????
I'm excited your veins show a tendency to de icing????
>
>> Please send photo before appointment, otherwise your journey may be
>> wasted.
>>
>> You claim I " whine" , but could you imagine both of us whining
>> toghether??????
>>
>> Wouldn't work!!!!!
>
> Just think of some of the great whiners of the past like Jefferson and
> Lincoln and Luther!
>
>> cheers and I hope you are in good health.
>
> If I feel like whining about my body, I know I can whine to you,
> Bruno.
Send me a picture so I can check it over and report back to you.
Cheers.
Maybe all that rain may help you in the de icing process.
I hope so.
>
> Slipperily
> Serena
chris lee
other staff from Werner's Alexander Everett and Bay Area days.
2. The background was what he saw in Hubbard's Dianetics operation,
Esalen's Gestalt Workshops, Everetts "Mind Dynamics" , Allan Watt's
lectures, Fritz Perl's workshops and anything else in the area of
Marin County in the late 60's and early Seventies.
chris lee
This is like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football..watch.
Tex
On this we can agree. ;-)
They ask for it.
Tex
Bingo!!!
elle...@gmail.com
> 1. Designed by Werner Erhard, Charlene Afremow, Stewart Emery..and
> other staff from Werner's Alexander Everett and Bay Area days.
> 2. The background was what he saw in Hubbard's Dianetics operation,
> Esalen's Gestalt Workshops, Everetts "Mind Dynamics" , Allan Watt's
> lectures, Fritz Perl's workshops and anything else in the area of
> Marin County in the late 60's and early Seventies.
Anything else? Real "garbage can" metaphysics, wouldn't you say?
Oh wait...
You forgot the long, foot-weary American traditions of the traveling
and door-to-door salesmen, pyramid schemers, purveyors of snake-oil,
and fundamentalist tent-show revivalists. Think you might do better
to research these as they are more salient to the topic of who/how the
est program(mings) were designed. Yes, you've selectively and self-
servingly left out the most important tributaries to that large,
indiscriminate fountain of self-help/self-awareness/New Age program$$
$.
Ellen
chris lee
No Ellen you have a point. I agree with critics of Erhard's company. I
don't agree with critics like YOU. But it is fair to reference those
phenomena.
Tex
Hey Chris,
Are you still getting your cut of the "profits?" ;-)
I'm not sure what self-serving interest Ellen thinks motivates you.
She occassionally explodes like this. The eruptions are becoming less
frequent though.
Perhaps the medication is starting to work!!!
She didn't mention used car salesmen in this rant.
Stay tuned!
Ellen would be far more effective if she didn't lump so many people into
that one category; the "idiots" that can't see it her way!
I'm sure there is a seminar out there that could help her get through this.
{:-0 {:-D
I wonder if she can see how she comes off to others, or how ineffective her
"deprogramming techniques" are.
elle...@gmail.com
> Hey Chris,
> Are you still getting your cut of the "profits?" ;-)
> I'm not sure what self-serving interest Ellen thinks motivates you.
His ego.
> She occassionally explodes like this.
(If I do, I'll damn sure spell it correctly.)
The eruptions are becoming less
> frequent though.
> Perhaps the medication is starting to work!!!
> She didn't mention used car salesmen in this rant.
> Stay tuned!
> Ellen would be far more effective if she didn't lump so many people into
> that one category; the "idiots" that can't see it her way!
What were you thinking? Landmark made you smarter?
> I wonder if she can see how she comes off to others, or how ineffective her
> "deprogramming techniques" are.
I haven't attempted to deprogram anyone here. I'm just throwing
spitballs. You and your little group of friends are so well and
thoroughly brainwashed there's no point. The only people who are
amenable to deprogramming are those who have begun to feel the pain
and question the cause that their participation has brought about.
There are plenty of stubborn types who will never get to that point.
Others will blame everything else under the sun before they question
est/Landmark/Werner Erhard.
Just out of curiosity, why don't you all form a little "Landmark
friendly" group where you can chat and compare notes on you Landmark
~experience?~ There are hundreds of such groups. Why post over here
where you are at risk of exposing your stupidity to the world? Most
Landmarkers don't tend to stray into the open with their blather.
What makes you want to, Chris?
Ellen
ross.in...@gmail.com
Disgruntled Landmark Education (LE) "fans" such as "Tex" often post
personal attacks at discussion groups like this one against LE's
perceived enemies.
There has been some speculation that "Tex" might be either employed by
LE or one of its many "volunteers."
These personal attacks are an attempt to distort the facts about my
personal and/or professional history in an apparent effort to mislead
the public and obscure the focus of discussion, which is actually LE
(a privately owned for-profit company) and the programs it sells such
as the Forum.
Many of these attacks rely primarily upon excerpted material posted
publicly about me through the Internet by Scientology on its assorted
and/or associated Web sites, such as "Religious Freedom Watch."
My public response to such attacks has been made available through the
Internet since 1998 and is periodically updated whenever necessary.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien47.html
"Tex" was banned from the Ross Institute of New Jersey message board
some time ago for breaking the rules, e.g. "flaming" (personal
attacks) in an attempt to subvert the discussion there. And he can be
seen as a fairly typical "Internet troll."
To better understand the antics and tactics of Internet trolls see
http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
Landmark fans often attempt to obscure the facts about LE, such as the
company's deeply troubled history of bad press, serious complaints
about its courses and related personal injury lawsuits.
See http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html
LE has also never been able to effectively demonstrate that its
courses and seminar weekends (e.g. the Forum) produce any direct and
objectively measurable results.
That is, despite LE's decades long history and its substantial
resources the company has never funded any meaningful scientific
research to prove its repeated claims that LE courses/programs
actually improve a person's life.
Instead, LE has chosen to fund customer satisfaction surveys and
polls, which report the subjective feelings and perception of its
graduates.
LE critics have never disputed that the company understands and
employs effective persuasion techniques that can directly affect the
feelings and perception of its program participants.
But a meaningful survey based upon objective results could measure
such things as a sustained higher grade point average, notably lower
divorce rate, increased income and/or less reliance upon professional
counseling over a period of years after completing LE programs.
Subsequently, such a study could then compare the LE graduates
surveyed against an outside control group, which had not attended LE
programs. And then to complete a valid study process the results would
then be submitted for peer-review and subsequently published within a
respected and credible journal.
However, LE has never completed such a process, which used objectively
measurable criteria to prove its claims about improving the lives of
LE participants.
Instead, LE has chosen to use testimonials that offer anecdotal
evidence and personal endorsements based upon subjective opinion to
support its claims.
LE and its fans are unhappy that RI has archived information about its
activities and practices.
RI is a registered nonprofit recognized by the IRS as a tax-exempted
educational charity, and is one of the most visible archives about
controversial groups and movements, some that have been called
"cults." RI has made information about LE readily accessible through
the Internet.
RI's Web site archives include previously published media reports,
court documents, research and critical comments from past participants
not only LE, but also concerning its immediate predecessor Erhard
Seminar Training (EST), which once featured the same introductory
seminar known as the Forum.
Werner Erhard, formerly known as "Jack" Rosenberg created the Forum.
Erhard's brother Harry Rosenberg, sister Joan Rosenberg and former
attorney Art Schreiber now run LE.
See http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html
And http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html
And also http://www.rickross.com/groups/forum.html
Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman researched the apparent and
seemingly inherent problems that LGATs most often possess, which has
frequently led to serious complaints and at times personal injury
lawsuits. Cushman wrote a paper about what he called "mass marathon
training."
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing9.html
The psychologist lists 13 liabilities of such programs, which
includes:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for
leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of
valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral
strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing"
without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual
techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness
techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result
participants may learn more about themselves and less about group
process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time
limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants
to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or
deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse
countertransference reactions.
Additionally Cushman points out four warning signs that an LGAT may
possess, which make it potentially dangerous.
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should
experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when
they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment
skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate
therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a
breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single
pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from
discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a
poor result by, "blaming the victim."
To better understand why LGAT programs like LE are frequently compared
to "coercive persuasion" (commonly called "brainwashing") the
following paper prepared by sociologist and Stanford University
professor Richard Ofshe may be helpful.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html
Offshe points out that coercive persuasion can be seen through the
dynamics within a group and cites four frequently observed behaviors:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to
destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment
to stabilize behavior once modified
Anyone interested in seeing just how abusive, controlling and
destructive LE programs can be should watch a Forum filmed in Paris by
hidden camera.
After this report was broadcast nationally on French television, LE
closed its operations in France.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark220.html
LE paid French psychiatrist Jean-Marie Abgrall more than 45,000 euros
to evaluate its training.
But the doctor was quite critical about the company and its practices.
Abrall said, "My critique is of techniques that haven't been mastered
at all. There is no control of a psychologist. They just put anyone in
there, which means that if this guy takes a blow, he leaves alone in a
daze, there's no one to take control for him. They don't exchange
information there's no real inspection of the technique. These guys
aren't trained, as if tomorrow you set up shop as a psychotherapist. I
mean, that's what's shocking."
LE has often offered the opinion of Dr. Raymond Fowler, a former
president (1995) of the American Psychological Associations (APA) and
Forum graduate to defend its programs. Fowler says that LE isn't
engaged in "brainwashing."
However, Fowler is not a noted expert or researcher or expert
concerning coercive persuasion techniques, but rather known for his
computer interpretation of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality
Inventory (MMPI).
LE's persistent efforts to silence its critics on the Internet have
attracted the attention of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
See http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/landmark/
It should be noted that though RI has hundreds of group/topic
subsections, the LE subsection remains consistently one of the most
visited within the Web site.
Interestingly, though many of the other groups listed with subsections
are much larger and generally have a greater impact in society than
LE, they most often don't generate the same level of visits as the LE
subsection.
With the exception of Scientology, Landmark Education ranks
consistently as one of the most visited subsections for information
within the Web site.
Apparently in response to the use of the RI archive by the general
public for information about LE, the company filed a lawsuit during
2004 in New Jersey federal court against both me personally and RI
claiming "product disparagement."
Through that lawsuit LE made several claims, including "product
disparagement."
However, rather than proceed and prove its claims through litigation
LE chose instead to dismiss its own lawsuit in 2005.
See http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000830.html
Landmark Education has a history of what can be seen as harassment
lawsuits seemingly filed to suppress criticism of its programs.
Attorneys at the New Jersey law firm of Lowenstein Sandler have
prepared an introduction and overview of such litigation complete with
links to supporting documents.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark193.html
RI also maintains an active message board that includes thousands of
posts from people affected by controversial groups and movements, some
called "cults" and various related topics.
See http://forum.rickross.com/
LE and other LGATs are the most popular category of discussion at the
message board.
See http://forum.rickross.com/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=91f25d6211a595ab615e9a287b6538ed
At times LE fans like have posted at the RI message board under
various anonymous aliases in an apparent attempt to subvert the board
and/or harass those posting there.
The board is moderated and has posted rules, which must be agreed upon
first by any potential participant.
See http://forum.rickross.com/rules.php
LE fans (e.g. "Tex") have at times violated these rules and
subsequently been banned from the RI message board, such violations
have included posting under more than one name and harassing members
with unwanted spam through the board member's private messaging
system.
RI is not the only source for critical information about LE available
through the Internet.
For additional information About LE see the following:
http://www.landmarkforumredflags.homestead.com/
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/forum.htm
http://www.religio.de/therapie/landmark/landmark.html#2
For general information about LGATs like LE see the following:
http://home.att.net/~jon.ruth/index.html
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/21/flores.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/tt.BC25.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/l/landmark/
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/main.htm#est
Please excuse the possible repetition of this posted response at
various threads within discussion groups, but it is important to set
the record straight when people posting comments deliberately attempt
to falsely malign me and/or distort the facts in an effort to mislead
the public.
Rick A. Ross
www.rickross.com
Tex
<ross.in...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e28e817f-3ac9-4c17...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> To whom it may concern:
>
> Disgruntled Landmark Education (LE) "fans" such as "Tex" often post
> personal attacks at discussion groups like this one against LE's
> perceived enemies.
>
> There has been some speculation that "Tex" might be either employed by LE
> or one of its many "volunteers."
There has been some speculation that you have stopped your criminal
activity, after all these years?
Is it true?
continue spamathon.
chris lee
> <ross.instit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e28e817f-3ac9-4c17...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > To whom it may concern:
>
> > Disgruntled Landmark Education (LE) "fans" such as "Tex" often post
> > personal attacks at discussion groups like this one against LE's
> > perceived enemies.
>
> > There has been some speculation that "Tex" might be either employed by LE
> > or one of its many "volunteers."
>
> There has been some speculation that you have stopped your criminal
> activity, after all these years?
> Is it true?
>
> continue spamathon.
>
>
>
>
>
> > These personal attacks are an attempt to distort the facts about my
> > personal and/or professional history in an apparent effort to mislead
> > the public and obscure the focus of discussion, which is actually LE
> > (a privately owned for-profit company) and the programs it sells such
> > as the Forum.
>
> > Many of these attacks rely primarily upon excerpted material posted
> > publicly about me through the Internet by Scientology on its assorted
> > and/or associated Web sites, such as "Religious Freedom Watch."
>
> > My public response to such attacks has been made available through the
> > Internet since 1998 and is periodically updated whenever necessary.
>
>
> > "Tex" was banned from the Ross Institute of New Jersey message board
> > some time ago for breaking the rules, e.g. "flaming" (personal
> > attacks) in an attempt to subvert the discussion there. And he can be
> > seen as a fairly typical "Internet troll."
>
> > To better understand the antics and tactics of Internet trolls see
> >http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
>
> > Landmark fans often attempt to obscure the facts about LE, such as the
> > company's deeply troubled history of bad press, serious complaints
> > about its courses and related personal injury lawsuits.
>
>
> > Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman researched the apparent and
> > seemingly inherent problems that LGATs most often possess, which has
> > frequently led to serious complaints and at times personal injury
> > lawsuits. Cushman wrote a paper about what he called "mass marathon
> > training."
>
>
> > Offshe points out that coercive persuasion can be seen through the
> > dynamics within a group and cites four frequently observed behaviors:
>
> > 1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to
> > destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
>
> > 2. The use of an organized peer group
>
> > 3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
>
> > 4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment
> > to stabilize behavior once modified
>
> > Anyone interested in seeing just how abusive, controlling and
> > destructive LE programs can be should watch a Forum filmed in Paris by
> > hidden camera.
>
> > After this report was broadcast nationally on French television, LE
> > closed its operations in France.
>
>
> > LE paid French psychiatrist Jean-Marie Abgrall more than 45,000 euros
> > to evaluate its training.
>
> > But the doctor was quite critical about the company and its practices.
>
> > Abrall said, "My critique is of techniques that haven't been mastered
> > at all. There is no control of a psychologist. They just put anyone in
> > there, which means that if this guy takes a blow, he leaves alone in a
> > daze, there's no one to take control for him. They don't exchange
> > information there's no real inspection of the technique. These guys
> > aren't trained, as if tomorrow you set up shop as a psychotherapist. I
> > mean, that's what's shocking."
>
> > LE has often offered the opinion of Dr. Raymond Fowler, a former
> > president (1995) of the American Psychological Associations (APA) and
> > Forum graduate to defend its programs. Fowler says that LE isn't
> > engaged in "brainwashing."
>
> > However, Fowler is not a noted expert or researcher or expert
> > concerning coercive persuasion techniques, but rather known for his
> > computer interpretation of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality
> > Inventory (MMPI).
>
> > LE's persistent efforts to silence its critics on the Internet have
> > attracted the attention of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
>
>
> > It should be noted that though RI has hundreds of group/topic
> > subsections, the LE subsection remains consistently one of the most
> > visited within the Web site.
>
> > Interestingly, though many of the other groups listed with subsections
> > are much larger and generally have a greater impact in society than
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
Tex, I wish you would admit though that the Ross site is useful. There
is info the Corporation will NEVER let you know and will try to
suppress. Landmark Education plays loose with signifiers.
They are not REALLY about Education. They are not REALLY about
coaching and they are not REALLY a technology. They are "sorta" on all
of these terms. Ross' site links to positive stuff as well. There is
alot I learned from his thing that I couldn't have gotten anywhere
else.
Tex
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07e08d10-52a4-45ee...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 29, 9:29 am, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Chris,
>> Are you still getting your cut of the "profits?" ;-)
>> I'm not sure what self-serving interest Ellen thinks motivates you.
>
>
> His ego.
And you post for purely altruistic reasons........right??? ;-)
>
>
>
>> She occasionally explodes like this.
>
>
> (If I do, I'll damn sure spell it correctly.)
>
>
> The eruptions are becoming less
>> frequent though.
>> Perhaps the medication is starting to work!!!
>> She didn't mention used car salesmen in this rant.
>> Stay tuned!
>> Ellen would be far more effective if she didn't lump so many people into
>> that one category; the "idiots" that can't see it her way!
>
>
> What were you thinking? Landmark made you smarter?
I never took any Landmark courses.
But I learned how to avoid manipulative orgnizations after getting involved
with est for a while, so yes, est made me smarter. ;-)
>
>
>> I wonder if she can see how she comes off to others, or how ineffective
>> her
>> "deprogramming techniques" are.
>
>
> I haven't attempted to deprogram anyone here. I'm just throwing
> spitballs.
No shit!
>You and your little group of friends are so well and thoroughly
brainwashed there's no point.
What group is that?
> The only people who are amenable to deprogramming are those who have
> begun to feel the pain and question the cause that their participation
> >has brought about.
Oh, I felt the "pain" over 25 years ago, when I was in the GSLP. The pain
was temporary though, as I left est after that. When I heard of Werner's
troubles on 60 Minutes I felt somewhat vindicated for "smelling a rat." I'm
surprised they are still in business. I really think they have needed to
resort to more insidious methods to get people to keep doing their bidding.
I came to this conclusion after watching a young man who was "over
committed" with Landmark assisting agreements. He was a total loser, yet
Laurel Scheaf had personally sponsored him for becoming a Forum Leader. This
guy couldn't lead flys to shit. He eventually "divorced" himself from
Landmark and started taking care of himself.
It was the first "inside" look at Landmark/est that I have had in over 20
years.
> There are plenty of stubborn types who will never get to that point.
> Others will blame everything else under the sun before they question
> est/Landmark/Werner Erhard.
Those people aren't here though, are they.
>
> Just out of curiosity, why don't you all form a little "Landmark friendly"
> group where you can chat and compare notes on you Landmark
> ~experience?~ There are hundreds of such groups.
This is much more fun. Those groups are agreement parties with people trying
to convince themselve that they "got it."
>Why post over here where you are at risk of exposing your stupidity to the
world?
You aren't worried about looking good, based on the quality of your posts.
Why do you think others are concerned about that.
Abraham Maslow Quote:
"The highest quality that a human being can reach
is to be independent of the good opinion of others."
Not everyone is a pleaser, Ellen.
> Most Landmarkers don't tend to stray into the open with their blather.
Well, thank God for that!!
> What makes you want to, Chris?
He is operating independently, not concerned with the "good" opinion of
others. (:-D
>
>
> Ellen
Tex
OK, Rick's site is useful.
Happy now? {;-D
>Thereis info the Corporation will NEVER let you know and will try to
>suppress. Landmark Education plays loose with signifiers.
>They are not REALLY about Education. They are not REALLY about
>coaching and they are not REALLY a technology. They are "sorta" on all
>of these terms. Ross' site links to positive stuff as well.
Not much.
> There is alot I learned from his thing that I couldn't have gotten
> anywhere else.
"Fair and balanced," right? ;-)
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067
Serena Nordstrup
Wow. Can I put that on my CV and call on you as a referree?
> and as
> Chris remarked why should he do all the research required when you have no
> interest in the topic.
Who determines whether I have an interest in a topic -- Bruno, Chris,
or someone else?
> Can't you see that???????
No. If people want to receive payment for passing out every little
result from their research, perhaps they should avoid free and open
unmoderated discussions in cyberspace.
> >> If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before we
> >> accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical dissertations
> >> we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
>
> > And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
> > accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
> >> You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
>
> > I think you mean rainy Queensland this month, Bruno.
>
> >> So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather than
> >> seeking more explanations for further discussions.
>
> > If you find my guiding methods distasteful and my rates unfair you may
> > care to hire alternative guides.
>
> Not worth the effort.
> I have noticed Chris lee and Dakota, more experienced people than myself
> wither on the vine talking to you, so whats the point.
Stick with me then, and don't whine or rubbish the guide.
> >> You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in this
> >> group.
>
> > That would explain it. I'll just go back to asking questions.
>
> Is it too much to ask any of you Ranters why you are here????
Dunno. Perhaps to discuss ~landmark education~.
Do you find that explanation plausible, Bruno?
> What your real agenda is??????
I didn't know I had any sort of agenda. Should I have? Does every
social chat conceal hidden motives when one goes with the flow? Do we
have room amongst humanity for serendipity?
> And why is that off topic???????
Insofar as it may have nothing to do with rosenbergism...
> >> Can you tell us what it is????
>
> > No -- no idea.
>
> Does the ice and Cynicism stop you from seeing things????
They might have that effect on a person. Do an experiment and test the
hypothesis a few thousand times on representative samples of humans.
> >> >> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half long
> >> >> which
> >> >> she fails to disclose.
>
> >> > In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
> >> > ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
> >> > all its workshops?
>
> >> No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your lackluster
> >> perfomance
> >> in this newgroup.
>
> > If you haven't actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar, do you have
> > the right to speculate about Serena?
>
> Yes I do, in the same manner you speculate about the Forum workshop.
>
> I agree its not in the spirit of having an open mind, however since you
> also
> play this game, its now convenient for me to join you.
Ah, you ~got~ the reference!
> Is that a problem for you?????
Fine, I now have your permission to say things about the ~forum~.
> >> Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
>
> > Nothing to ~get~, Bruno.
>
> You feel the cold UHHHH.
>
>
>
> >> >> Pity .
>
> >> > Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
>
> >> Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot
> >> however
> >> time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors of
> >> my
> >> perceptions about LEC.
>
> >> I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it to
> >> others
> >> for their perusal.
>
> > No doubt you enjoy riding. Have you studied systems intelligence?
>
> No to dry for me.
How many years did you give it?
> I like to deal with real people and I think thats what I am good at.
> No other talents of course apart from having married well.
The ~possibilities~ squandered! The ~transformations~ less traveled!
You do yourself a disservice, Bruno. Your cynicism kills your
potential.
> >> >> cheers
>
> >> > But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the world
> >> > as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some of
> >> > those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of what
> >> > happened in ~the past~ ?
>
> >> Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses.
>
> > Don't let Tex hear you say that. What if some sort of criminal
> > connection got associated with the person(s) doing the designing?
>
> Tex can handle that.
> We can agree to disagree and thats okay.
>
> I certainly can't do that with you though.
> I feel I have been cheated and I haven;t been able figure out how.
Quick -- find someone or something to ~blame~.
> >> I observed the
> >> courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free
> >> spirit
> >> of communications between many of the participants.
>
> > No gratitude for the designer(s), then?
>
> Yes , at times I thought them as great innovators whoever they were.
Respect, then, but gratitude?
> >> The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats what I
> >> enjoyed most.
>
> > You didn't feel tempted to go for any presumed super-ur-catharsis
> > lurking behind the designing of the ~landmark education~ courses and
> > workshops?
>
> Yes I did and thats why I assisted to try to understand the workings
> of the organisation.
Not to confuse the org with course-design...
> Looking back it was certainly a much smoother and polished presentation
> than anyone here has ever critically discussed.
> Ellena of Troy can speculate for an eternity why the organisation still
> thrives
> because she has never done the neccessary homework to see with her
> own eyes how people can get sucked in.
Let's study the retention-rate with our own brains, then, and see how
far we get.
> Her crude deprogramming approach is similar to using chemotherapy in the
> treatment of Cancer with its success rate of 2% being hidden from the
> potential sacrificial lamb being treated.
Whereas her sophisticated rhetoric works wonders (on you at least)
every time.
> >> We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
>
> >> We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
> >> behind.
>
> > Just fast-moving rocks, Bruno: pre-fossilized assemblages of
> > chemicals . Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
> > island" ?
Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
island" ?
> >> Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so much
> >> desire.
>
> > I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich knows about multi-variant
> > statistical analysis...
>
> You were the one asking for statistical analysis which you so looogically
> desired, and when tex supplied them, you suddenly weren't interested.
Leaving aside the personal aside, I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich
knows about multi-variant
statistical analysis...
> >> I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of the
> >> closet .
>
> > I urge you to investigate the source and accuracy of your feeling.
>
> I have its real for me.
Despite thorough investigation?
> >> You could be stuck in a time warp.
>
> > True. I don't think de-programmers deal with time-warps. Does
> > ~landmark~ have the expertise touted by the Co$ in this arena?
>
> No.
>
> However they do have some expertise to de ice your veins so you can
> possibly get in touch with your emotions, for you to experience what its
> like to be a sentient being.
Wow -- a Faustian deal.
> >> Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
>
> > More reliable than breast-enlargement cream?
>
> Can't answer that one. I never did try it and I only got one complaint in
> the
> times I was selling it. I did offer the client the return of my commision.
More data needed.
> So there is some interest for you to try the auditing????????
More data needed.
Serena Nordstrup
> 1. Designed by Werner Erhard, Charlene Afremow, Stewart Emery..and
> other staff from Werner's Alexander Everett and Bay Area days.
> 2. The background was what he saw in Hubbard's Dianetics operation,
> Esalen's Gestalt Workshops, Everetts "Mind Dynamics" , Allan Watt's
> lectures, Fritz Perl's workshops and anything else in the area of
> Marin County in the late 60's and early Seventies.
That seemed easy enough: thanks!
Now how abut addressing question 2:
tubby Tanner
You can. I will have to admit that you seem bright but somehow stuck in
a time warp.
Materiallistic to the core in your beliefs, confusing the many
variabilities of
human interaction to mere black and white processes. \No grey areas for
you
because of your undying belief that it'a all about looooogic and Plato's
universals.
Perception and the complexities of consciousness totally ignored.
Excellent as a Devil's advocate at times but very cynical and able to kill
any creative
spirit that may arise through the discusiion. As Happ clearly pointed out ,
only to be
introduced when one has all the facts and figures at hand and one is
totally confidant in their
presentations.
No creative juice but plenty of skeptical viewpoints often tendering
towards dogmatic beliefs.
Seems to be of a suspiciosious character,providing plenty of
doubt,distrust, staggering
belief in her own perceptions of people and processes.
Presents herself as sophisticate in her thinking processes and convinced
she knows more than the next
person.
Doesn't belive in testimony but highly attracted to statistics.
>
>> and as
>> Chris remarked why should he do all the research required when you have
>> no
>> interest in the topic.
>
> Who determines whether I have an interest in a topic -- Bruno, Chris,
> or someone else?
Who ever you are discussing the topic with.
>
>> Can't you see that???????
>
> No. If people want to receive payment for passing out every little
> result from their research, perhaps they should avoid free and open
> unmoderated discussions in cyberspace.
Bullshit Serena. I think Chris Lee would be the last person to ask for
any
payment . Through his posts he seems to be creatively wanting to look at the
anomolies
of \Human interaction.
His blog and his actions clearly present him as an open person wanting to
have some
dialogue in the topics he is interested in.
Could one say that about you hiding behind your majetic Rock????
>
>> >> If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before
>> >> we
>> >> accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical
>> >> dissertations
>> >> we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
>>
>> > And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
>> > accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
Bullshit once again Serena. Often the questions you ask are not there
to explore the topic which at times maybe complex and difficult to
loooooogically explain.
You don't possess at least up till now any spirit of enquiry.
>
> And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
> accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
A possibility that your questions were more than a hinderance than an
effort
to understand a difficult subject such as perception and consciousness.
>
>> >> You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
>>
>> > I think you mean rainy Queensland this month, Bruno.
>>
>> >> So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather
>> >> than
>> >> seeking more explanations for further discussions.
>>
>> > If you find my guiding methods distasteful and my rates unfair you may
>> > care to hire alternative guides.
>>
>> Not worth the effort.
>> I have noticed Chris lee and Dakota, more experienced people than
>> myself
>> wither on the vine talking to you, so whats the point.
>
> Stick with me then, and don't whine or rubbish the guide.
No I"m too sensitive and I cannot stand withering on the vine. Dakota and
Chris Lee
have dome more reading on this topic than I, and if they can't handle you
( Communication wise)
what hope have I got.
>
>> >> You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in
>> >> this
>> >> group.
>>
>> > That would explain it. I'll just go back to asking questions.
>>
>> Is it too much to ask any of you Ranters why you are here????
>
> Dunno. Perhaps to discuss ~landmark education~.
Bullshit again serena. This is the hypocrisy swilling out of you
>
> Do you find that explanation plausible, Bruno?
Nuhhh. Can;t understand why you fear honesty so much????/
>
>> What your real agenda is??????
>
> I didn't know I had any sort of agenda. Should I have? Does every
> social chat conceal hidden motives when one goes with the flow? Do we
> have room amongst humanity for serendipity?
I would like to believe that but I can't see it with you and your
conversations.
You have never answered any questions directed at you openly.
>
>> And why is that off topic???????
>
> Insofar as it may have nothing to do with rosenbergism...
>
>> >> Can you tell us what it is????
>>
>> > No -- no idea.
>>
>> Does the ice and Cynicism stop you from seeing things????
>
> They might have that effect on a person. Do an experiment and test the
> hypothesis a few thousand times on representative samples of humans.
You so love that loooogic and statistics don't you.
Maybe there are better ways to achieve the same aims????
>
>> >> >> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half
>> >> >> long
>> >> >> which
>> >> >> she fails to disclose.
>>
>> >> > In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
>> >> > ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
>> >> > all its workshops?
>>
>> >> No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your
>> >> lackluster
>> >> perfomance
>> >> in this newgroup.
>>
>> > If you haven't actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar, do you have
>> > the right to speculate about Serena?
>>
>> Yes I do, in the same manner you speculate about the Forum workshop.
>>
>> I agree its not in the spirit of having an open mind, however since you
>> also
>> play this game, its now convenient for me to join you.
>
> Ah, you ~got~ the reference!
>
>> Is that a problem for you?????
Yes, it doesn't help the conversation, but it may at times be
humourous.
>
> Fine, I now have your permission to say things about the ~forum~.
You can say anything you want Serena. Just be straight and honest.
>
>> >> Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> > Nothing to ~get~, Bruno.
>>
>> You feel the cold UHHHH.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> Pity .
>>
>> >> > Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
>>
>> >> Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot
>> >> however
>> >> time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors
>> >> of
>> >> my
>> >> perceptions about LEC.
>>
>> >> I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it
>> >> to
>> >> others
>> >> for their perusal.
>>
>> > No doubt you enjoy riding. Have you studied systems intelligence?
>>
>> No to dry for me.
>
> How many years did you give it?
Snap judgemnt. If i don't like it I wont pursue it.
>
>> I like to deal with real people and I think thats what I am good at.
>> No other talents of course apart from having married well.
>
> The ~possibilities~ squandered! The ~transformations~ less traveled!
> You do yourself a disservice, Bruno. Your cynicism kills your
> potential.
You taught me well Serena. Its rubbing of on me as well.
How to I get out of this rut!!!!!
>
>> >> >> cheers
>>
>> >> > But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the
>> >> > world
>> >> > as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some
>> >> > of
>> >> > those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of
>> >> > what
>> >> > happened in ~the past~ ?
>>
>> >> Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses.
>>
>> > Don't let Tex hear you say that. What if some sort of criminal
>> > connection got associated with the person(s) doing the designing?
>>
>> Tex can handle that.
>> We can agree to disagree and thats okay.
>>
>> I certainly can't do that with you though.
>> I feel I have been cheated and I haven;t been able figure out how.
>
> Quick -- find someone or something to ~blame~.
No need to blame anybody. My feeling of being cheated is personal.
>
>> >> I observed the
>> >> courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free
>> >> spirit
>> >> of communications between many of the participants.
>>
>> > No gratitude for the designer(s), then?
>>
>> Yes , at times I thought them as great innovators whoever they were.
>
> Respect, then, but gratitude?
>
>> >> The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats
>> >> what I
>> >> enjoyed most.
>>
>> > You didn't feel tempted to go for any presumed super-ur-catharsis
>> > lurking behind the designing of the ~landmark education~ courses and
>> > workshops?
>>
>> Yes I did and thats why I assisted to try to understand the
>> workings
>> of the organisation.
>
> Not to confuse the org with course-design...
Its all mish mashed toghether Serena. Thats the enigma.
>
>> Looking back it was certainly a much smoother and polished presentation
>> than anyone here has ever critically discussed.
>> Ellena of Troy can speculate for an eternity why the organisation
>> still
>> thrives
>> because she has never done the neccessary homework to see with her
>> own eyes how people can get sucked in.
>
> Let's study the retention-rate with our own brains, then, and see how
> far we get.
>
>> Her crude deprogramming approach is similar to using chemotherapy in the
>> treatment of Cancer with its success rate of 2% being hidden from the
>> potential sacrificial lamb being treated.
>
> Whereas her sophisticated rhetoric works wonders (on you at least)
> every time.
Yes I get excited by her gnawing and gnashing of the topic.
>
>> >> We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
>>
>> >> We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
>> >> behind.
>>
>> > Just fast-moving rocks, Bruno: pre-fossilized assemblages of
>> > chemicals . Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
>> > island" ?
So he did . But time moves on Serena. Hadn't you noticed????
>
> Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
> island" ?
>
>> >> Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so
>> >> much
>> >> desire.
>>
>> > I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich knows about multi-variant
>> > statistical analysis...
>>
>> You were the one asking for statistical analysis which you so looogically
>> desired, and when tex supplied them, you suddenly weren't interested.
>
> Leaving aside the personal aside, I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich
> knows about multi-variant
> statistical analysis...
Why don't you ask him????????
>
>> >> I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of
>> >> the
>> >> closet .
>>
>> > I urge you to investigate the source and accuracy of your feeling.
>>
>> I have its real for me.
>
> Despite thorough investigation?
Yes . don't you????
>
>> >> You could be stuck in a time warp.
>>
>> > True. I don't think de-programmers deal with time-warps. Does
>> > ~landmark~ have the expertise touted by the Co$ in this arena?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> However they do have some expertise to de ice your veins so you can
>> possibly get in touch with your emotions, for you to experience what its
>> like to be a sentient being.
>
> Wow -- a Faustian deal.
Faust would not be interested in this deal. Its to common to many of us.
>
>> >> Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
>>
>> > More reliable than breast-enlargement cream?
>>
>> Can't answer that one. I never did try it and I only got one complaint
>> in
>> the
>> times I was selling it. I did offer the client the return of my
>> commision.
>
> More data needed.
Nuhh. I'm not showing you mine till you show me yours???
>
>> So there is some interest for you to try the auditing????????
>
> More data needed.
What data do you need. Maybe i can supply it>
cheers
Tex
>
> Simpatice
> Serena
chris lee
that their work is about dealing with emotional trauma,
confrontational psychodrama, and so on.
chris lee
You're sooo "mean" Ellen. :)
elle...@gmail.com
> You're sooo "mean" Ellen. :)
I'm not out to hoodwink you, Chris.
I'm not out to snooker you and schmooze you and whisper in your ear.
I'm not out to pick your pocket by flattering you and telling you
things you want to hear, selling you false promises, or pretending to
offer you endless ~possibilities.~
I'm not out to prey on your better nature, your generosity, your
friendship.
I'm not out to play games with you, trick you emotionally, lead you
down a path of increasingly expensive and time-consuming
~commitments.~
I'm not out to get you to confess all your darkest secrets so I can
blackmail you later on.
I'm not out to destroy your abillty to think critically, to know
what's ~real,~ so that you become more and more dependent on me to
tell you what to think, how to behave, and where to spend your time.
If I were, I'd do all the things Landmark does and I'd be rich.
Ellen
chris lee
deserve a little somethin...
chris lee
You're just out to hurt my feewings and make me doubt my own
judgement.
chris lee
ccritique and scepticism, I just don't think it's a GOOD critique.
It's all emotional pejorative and name calling. No discussion ( or
apparent understanding) of the underlying issues, nothing in the way
of a measured argument using facts and your own experience of people
that you know who have done the courses.
elle...@gmail.com
> You're just out to hurt my feewings and make me doubt my own
> judgement.
Why don't you start by learning how to spell "judgment."
E
Serena Nordstrup
> I did. If you research those authors and personalities you will see
> that their work is about dealing with emotional trauma,
> confrontational psychodrama, and so on.
Thanks for the linkage.
When you say "The background was what he saw" you refer to Stewart
Emery?
Serena Nordstrup
> ellena...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 12:03 pm, chris lee <chrisleeblacka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > You're sooo "mean" Ellen. :)
>
> > I'm not out to hoodwink you, Chris.
>
> > I'm not out to snooker you and schmooze you and whisper in your ear.
> > I'm not out to pick your pocket by flattering you and telling you
> > things you want to hear, selling you false promises, or pretending to
> > offer you endless ~possibilities.~
>
> > I'm not out to prey on your better nature, your generosity, your
> > friendship.
>
> > I'm not out to play games with you, trick you emotionally, lead you
> > down a path of increasingly expensive and time-consuming
> > ~commitments.~
>
> > I'm not out to get you to confess all your darkest secrets so I can
> > blackmail you later on.
>
> > I'm not out to destroy your abillty to think critically, to know
> > what's ~real,~ so that you become more and more dependent on me to
> > tell you what to think, how to behave, and where to spend your time.
>
> > If I were, I'd do all the things Landmark does and I'd be rich.
>
> > Ellen
> Actually Ellen, I manifestly and patently support the spirit of your
> ccritique and scepticism, I just don't think it's a GOOD critique.
> It's all emotional pejorative and name calling.
All?
Every single bit?
> No discussion ( or apparent understanding) of the underlying issues,
Underlying issues as defined by whom?
> nothing in the way
> of a measured argument using facts and your own experience of people
> that you know who have done the courses.
Perish the very thought that we could have a "measured argument
using ... [one's] own experience of people that [one] know[s] who have
done the courses." That would hopelessly compromise objectivity and
observational detachment, bringing us right down to the level of the
emotional arguments of the ~landmark education~ recruiters.
Simpatice
Serena
Tex
<elle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb72d2fb-54db-4c98...@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Meet the spelling and grammar Nazi, Chris.
I did warn you, did I not???? ;-D
This is her act, it never changes.
She got fucked over by some old est-holes.
She can't let it go.
It is hard to let go of being betrayed, rejected or otherwise mistreated.
Victor Frankl is a role model for us all, though.
This quote stands out from the below.
"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through
the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may
have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can
be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man's_Search_for_Meaning
Frankl identifies three psychological reactions experienced by all inmates
to one degree or another: (1) shock during the initial admission phase to
the camp, (2) apathy after becoming accustomed to camp existence, in which
the inmate values only that which helps himself or others survive, and (3)
reactions of depersonalization, moral deformity, bitterness, and
disillusionment after being liberated.
Frankl concludes that the meaning of life is found in every moment of
living; life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death. In a
group therapy session during a mass fast inflicted on the camp's inmates
trying to protect an anonymous fellow inmate from fatal retribution by
authorities, Frankl offered the thought that for everyone in a dire
condition there is someone looking down, a friend, family member, or even
God, who would expect not to be disappointed. Frankl concludes from his
experience that a prisoner's psychological reactions are not solely the
result of the conditions of his life, but also from the freedom of choice he
always has even in severe suffering. The inner hold a prisoner has on his
spiritual self relies on having a faith in the future, and that once a
prisoner loses that faith, he is doomed.
He also concludes that there are only two races of men, decent men and
indecent. No society is free of either of them, and thus there were "decent"
Nazi guards and "indecent" prisoners, most notably the capo who would
torture and abuse their fellow prisoners for personal gain.
His concluding passage in Part One describes the psychological reaction of
the inmates to their liberation. He recounts a decent friend who became
immediately obsessed with dispensing the same violence in judgment of his
abusers that they had inflicted on him. In their first foray outside their
former prison, the prisoners realized that they could not comprehend
pleasure. Flowers, sudden kindness by their former guards, and the reality
of the freedom they had dreamed about for years were all surreal, unable to
be grasped in their depersonalization. Even when he or she returned to
"normal" life, a prisoner experienced bitterness that others were
superficial and did not comprehend what he had gone through, then
disillusionment when newfound freedom did not mean the end of unhappiness.
As time passed, however, the prisoner's experience in a concentration camp
finally became nothing more than a nightmare.
[edit] Quotations
a.. "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked
through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread.
They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that
everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms-to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
choose one's own way."
a.. "Nietzsche's words, 'He who has a why to live for can bear with almost
any how.'"
a.. "When we are no longer able to change a situation-just think of an
incurable disease such as inoperable cancer-we are challenged to change
ourselves"
a.. "Fundamentally, therefore, any man can, even under such circumstances,
decide what shall become of him - mentally and spiritually. He may retain
his human dignity even in a concentration camp."
a.. "We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by
doing a deed; (2) by experiencing a value; and (3) by suffering."
a.. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what
life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life,
and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by
life-daily and hourly. Our answer must consist, not in talk and meditation,
but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the
responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the
tasks which it constantly sets for each individual."
a.. "Man is capable of changing the world for the better if possible, and
of changing himself for the better if necessary."
a.. "Set me like a seal upon thy heart, love is as strong as death." (Cf.
Song of Solomon 8:6)
a.. "We have come to know man as he really is. After all, man is that
being who invented the gas chambers of Auschwitz; however, he is also that
being who entered those gas chambers upright, with the Lord's prayer or the
Shema Yisrael on his lips."
>
>
> E
>
Serena Nordstrup
Well done! Your gift for retailing groundless fantasies could prove
useful some day.
> >> and as
> >> Chris remarked why should he do all the research required when you have
> >> no
> >> interest in the topic.
>
> > Who determines whether I have an interest in a topic -- Bruno, Chris,
> > or someone else?
>
> Who ever you are discussing the topic with.
I don't accept that. If I did, though, who would determine my
interests when I have no discussion-partner?
> >> Can't you see that???????
>
> > No. If people want to receive payment for passing out every little
> > result from their research, perhaps they should avoid free and open
> > unmoderated discussions in cyberspace.
>
> Bullshit Serena. I think Chris Lee would be the last person to ask for
> any
> payment . Through his posts he seems to be creatively wanting to look at the
> anomolies
> of \Human interaction.
> His blog and his actions clearly present him as an open person wanting to
> have some
> dialogue in the topics he is interested in.
> Could one say that about you hiding behind your majetic Rock????
I don't recognize myself in your idealization of Chris.
> >> >> If we had to wait for explanations of all natural phenmena before
> >> >> we
> >> >> accepted them as genuine, through your looooooogical
> >> >> dissertations
> >> >> we'd still be living in damp caves and eating grubs for dinner.
>
> >> > And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
> >> > accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
>
> Bullshit once again Serena. Often the questions you ask are not there
> to explore the topic which at times maybe complex and difficult to
> loooooogically explain.
Of course not. Some questions relate to procedure, for example.
> You don't possess at least up till now any spirit of enquiry.
Plenty of inquiry -- what does "spirit" have to do with this?
> > And if we meet with a refusal to answer questions directly and
> > accurately, what conclusions do we draw?
>
> A possibility that your questions were more than a hinderance than an
> effort
> to understand a difficult subject such as perception and consciousness.
One ~possible~ conclusion. Anything more likely or generic?
> >> >> You may do that for now in sunny Queenland for all I know?????
>
> >> > I think you mean rainy Queensland this month, Bruno.
>
> >> >> So you mainly have guided the conversation to end them rather
> >> >> than
> >> >> seeking more explanations for further discussions.
>
> >> > If you find my guiding methods distasteful and my rates unfair you may
> >> > care to hire alternative guides.
>
> >> Not worth the effort.
> >> I have noticed Chris lee and Dakota, more experienced people than
> >> myself
> >> wither on the vine talking to you, so whats the point.
>
> > Stick with me then, and don't whine or rubbish the guide.
>
> No I"m too sensitive and I cannot stand withering on the vine. Dakota and
> Chris Lee
> have dome more reading on this topic than I, and if they can't handle you
> ( Communication wise)
> what hope have I got.
>
>
>
> >> >> You lack any spirit of enquiry because of you mysterious agenda in
> >> >> this
> >> >> group.
>
> >> > That would explain it. I'll just go back to asking questions.
>
> >> Is it too much to ask any of you Ranters why you are here????
>
> > Dunno. Perhaps to discuss ~landmark education~.
>
> Bullshit again serena. This is the hypocrisy swilling out of you
Well, you did ask...
> > Do you find that explanation plausible, Bruno?
>
> Nuhhh. Can;t understand why you fear honesty so much????/
Non sequitur?
> >> What your real agenda is??????
>
> > I didn't know I had any sort of agenda. Should I have? Does every
> > social chat conceal hidden motives when one goes with the flow? Do we
> > have room amongst humanity for serendipity?
>
> I would like to believe that but I can't see it with you and your
> conversations.
Prejudice might explain that.
> You have never answered any questions directed at you openly.
When did I not answer a relevant question?
> >> And why is that off topic???????
>
> > Insofar as it may have nothing to do with rosenbergism...
>
> >> >> Can you tell us what it is????
>
> >> > No -- no idea.
>
> >> Does the ice and Cynicism stop you from seeing things????
>
> > They might have that effect on a person. Do an experiment and test the
> > hypothesis a few thousand times on representative samples of humans.
>
> You so love that loooogic and statistics don't you.
> Maybe there are better ways to achieve the same aims????
Such as?
> >> >> >> She has Ice in her veins and a secret agenda a mile and a half
> >> >> >> long
> >> >> >> which
> >> >> >> she fails to disclose.
>
> >> >> > In your dreams, Bruno. You know the interior of my veins from
> >> >> > ~experience~? Have you actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar? and
> >> >> > all its workshops?
>
> >> >> No I would be bored stiff and demand my monies back by your
> >> >> lackluster
> >> >> perfomance
> >> >> in this newgroup.
>
> >> > If you haven't actually ~completed~ the Serena-seminar, do you have
> >> > the right to speculate about Serena?
>
> >> Yes I do, in the same manner you speculate about the Forum workshop.
>
> >> I agree its not in the spirit of having an open mind, however since you
> >> also
> >> play this game, its now convenient for me to join you.
>
> > Ah, you ~got~ the reference!
>
> >> Is that a problem for you?????
>
> Yes, it doesn't help the conversation, but it may at times be
> humourous.
>
>
>
> > Fine, I now have your permission to say things about the ~forum~.
>
> You can say anything you want Serena.
Thanks!
> Just be straight and honest.
I don't do ~be~, Bruno.
> >> >> Icy veins Serena, don't you get that!!!!!!!!!
>
> >> > Nothing to ~get~, Bruno.
>
> >> You feel the cold UHHHH.
>
> >> >> >> Pity .
>
> >> >> > Another soul lost to the rosenbergist machine...
>
> >> >> Not at all. I may have entered this Newsgroup as a somewhat zealot
> >> >> however
> >> >> time and people in this group have made me see some of the errors
> >> >> of
> >> >> my
> >> >> perceptions about LEC.
>
> >> >> I still claim though that I enjoyed the ride and would recommend it
> >> >> to
> >> >> others
> >> >> for their perusal.
>
> >> > No doubt you enjoy riding. Have you studied systems intelligence?
>
> >> No to dry for me.
>
> > How many years did you give it?
>
> Snap judgemnt. If i don't like it I wont pursue it.
Despite its interest in human interaction?
> >> I like to deal with real people and I think thats what I am good at.
> >> No other talents of course apart from having married well.
>
> > The ~possibilities~ squandered! The ~transformations~ less traveled!
> > You do yourself a disservice, Bruno. Your cynicism kills your
> > potential.
>
> You taught me well Serena. Its rubbing of on me as well.
> How to I get out of this rut!!!!!
Why would you want to?
> >> >> >> cheers
>
> >> >> > But to return to the topic in hand. Perhaps YOU could inform the
> >> >> > world
> >> >> > as to who designed the est courses? Perhaps you could reel in some
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > those good old contacts and get to pontificate on the ~story~ of
> >> >> > what
> >> >> > happened in ~the past~ ?
>
> >> >> Nuh, I was never interested on who designed the courses.
>
> >> > Don't let Tex hear you say that. What if some sort of criminal
> >> > connection got associated with the person(s) doing the designing?
>
> >> Tex can handle that.
> >> We can agree to disagree and thats okay.
>
> >> I certainly can't do that with you though.
> >> I feel I have been cheated and I haven;t been able figure out how.
>
> > Quick -- find someone or something to ~blame~.
>
> No need to blame anybody. My feeling of being cheated is personal.
Time to look inside, then.
> >> >> I observed the
> >> >> courses and workshops through my assisting, and enjoyed the free
> >> >> spirit
> >> >> of communications between many of the participants.
>
> >> > No gratitude for the designer(s), then?
>
> >> Yes , at times I thought them as great innovators whoever they were.
>
> > Respect, then, but gratitude?
Respect, then, but gratitude?
> >> >> The workshops were all about carthartic experiences , and thats
> >> >> what I
> >> >> enjoyed most.
>
> >> > You didn't feel tempted to go for any presumed super-ur-catharsis
> >> > lurking behind the designing of the ~landmark education~ courses and
> >> > workshops?
>
> >> Yes I did and thats why I assisted to try to understand the
> >> workings
> >> of the organisation.
>
> > Not to confuse the org with course-design...
>
> Its all mish mashed toghether Serena. Thats the enigma.
Go back to the "design" phase then. Before any org existed to mish-
mash with things.
> >> Looking back it was certainly a much smoother and polished presentation
> >> than anyone here has ever critically discussed.
> >> Ellena of Troy can speculate for an eternity why the organisation
> >> still
> >> thrives
> >> because she has never done the neccessary homework to see with her
> >> own eyes how people can get sucked in.
>
> > Let's study the retention-rate with our own brains, then, and see how
> > far we get.
>
> >> Her crude deprogramming approach is similar to using chemotherapy in the
> >> treatment of Cancer with its success rate of 2% being hidden from the
> >> potential sacrificial lamb being treated.
>
> > Whereas her sophisticated rhetoric works wonders (on you at least)
> > every time.
>
> Yes I get excited by her gnawing and gnashing of the topic.
You like to think that you respond to emotion?
> >> >> We are all so different Serena , sentient complex human beings.
>
> >> >> We are not majestic rocks, the ones you so much admire and hide
> >> >> behind.
>
> >> > Just fast-moving rocks, Bruno: pre-fossilized assemblages of
> >> > chemicals . Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
> >> > island" ?
>
> So he did . But time moves on Serena. Hadn't you noticed????
I thought it marched backwards over sand...
> > Didn't young Paul Simon write "I am a rock -- I am an
> > island" ?
>
> >> >> Too many variables to give you the looooooooogical answers you so
> >> >> much
> >> >> desire.
>
> >> > I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich knows about multi-variant
> >> > statistical analysis...
>
> >> You were the one asking for statistical analysis which you so looogically
> >> desired, and when tex supplied them, you suddenly weren't interested.
>
> > Leaving aside the personal aside, I wonder how much Daniel Yankelovich
> > knows about multi-variant
> > statistical analysis...
>
> Why don't you ask him????????
I don't want to *know* as much as to *wonder*. -- Some matters fall
into that category.
> >> >> I get the feeling you are also a "seeker" waiting to conme out of
> >> >> the
> >> >> closet .
>
> >> > I urge you to investigate the source and accuracy of your feeling.
>
> >> I have its real for me.
>
> > Despite thorough investigation?
>
> Yes . don't you????
Don't I what?
> >> >> You could be stuck in a time warp.
>
> >> > True. I don't think de-programmers deal with time-warps. Does
> >> > ~landmark~ have the expertise touted by the Co$ in this arena?
>
> >> No.
>
> >> However they do have some expertise to de ice your veins so you can
> >> possibly get in touch with your emotions, for you to experience what its
> >> like to be a sentient being.
>
> > Wow -- a Faustian deal.
>
> Faust would not be interested in this deal. Its to common to many of us.
Just like the symbolic Faustian situation, then.
> >> >> Trust me auditing may do the trick!!!!!!
>
> >> > More reliable than breast-enlargement cream?
>
> >> Can't answer that one. I never did try it and I only got one complaint
> >> in
> >> the
> >> times I was selling it. I did offer the client the return of my
> >> commision.
>
> > More data needed.
>
> Nuhh. I'm not showing you mine till you show me yours???
>
>
>
> >> So there is some interest for you to try the auditing????????
>
> > More data needed.
>
> What data do you need. Maybe i can supply it>
Times performed under controlled conditions. Outcomes thereof.
chris lee
elle...@gmail.com
> see?See..? :(
Consider that I might be helping you not look like an under-educated
rube.
Consider that you might be grateful to me for the same reason I am
encouraging you to distance yourself from Landmark. Landmark does
nothing for your CV. Actually it does the opposite of what you think
-- it makes you look foolish.
Ellen
chris lee
with my choices.