2nd draft LGAT standards & ethics

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Estie

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Jul 4, 2006, 11:55:48 PM7/4/06
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With some really good help, here's a second draft:

Definition:
Human Potential Course means any commercial group seminar, workshop or
"training" that purports to effect change, experientially and
non-therapeutically, in some or all of the following areas:
* The individual's perceived self worth; personal goals, purpose or
achievement; or sense of mental and psychological well-being.
* The individual's communication style, ability to interact with
others, reality, or perceived role within society.
* The individual's conception of memories, and resolution of their
conscious or subconscious effects on current experience.

Some suggested ethics and standards for LGAT's and LGAT-based
entities

The following is offered as an initial suggested list of ethics and
standards for the human potential industry. Comments and suggestions
are sought on an ongoing basis. Ultimately, our goal is to ask
Congress and/or state legislatures to study this field and establish
standards and oversight/accountability mechanisms to license and
regulate this industry. An oversight body in each state where these
groups operate is critical to ongoing accountability to the public.
This body would routinely monitor these courses, gather and compile
information about their methods and results and any problem areas, and
investigate any complaints received by the public. While a number of
different models have been used for this type of oversight body, a
grass-roots based model (more info) is suggested.

1. Providers of human potential courses and services shall provide to
prospective clients and customers a detailed "prospectus" which
includes the following:
a. A statement of the specific goals, purposes, and outcomes of the
program/service.
b. A statement describing all the methods which occur during the course
and which are used to achieve these goals and outcomes.
c. A statement describing all potential risks, side-effects, and known
unwanted outcomes.
d. A statement describing the qualifications, certifications and
licenses held by course leaders and/or service providers.
e. When personal testimonials are used in company publicity and/or
registration events, a statement must be made indicating whether the
information has been verified, and stating that "results may not be
typical."
This information shall be provided to prospective customers before
registration in any and all courses.
2. All teachers/leaders/instructors/facilitators of paid human
potential courses must hold licenses certifying their preparation and
fitness, as established by legislative action. At a minimum, such
teachers should have earned a bachelor's degree from an accredited
institution of higher learning.
3. Providers of human potential courses shall provide all
accommodations prescribed under the Americans with Disabilities Act
(ADA).
4. Participants in human potential courses shall not be required to
sign any agreement which limits their access to legal remedies.
5. All human potential courses shall meet the following minimum
requirements:
a. 30-minute breaks every three hours for courses with 150 or less
participants; 45-minute breaks every three hours for courses with 150
or more participants. These breaks shall allow bathroom use, eating,
and relaxation at the discretion of the participants.
b. 90-minute meal breaks every six hours.
c. In the case of multiple-day courses, there shall be a break of at
least ten hours before the resumption of the following day's course.
d. No requirements, rules or agreements shall govern participants'
actions during breaks, outside the course room or when the course is
not being actively presented.
6. Human potential courses shall be provided in a non-restrictive
environment. Specifically:
a. Course participants shall not be prohibited or inhibited from taking
regular prescription or over-the-counter medication as prescribed by a
physician or at their discretion. Participants shall not be required
to have the taking of medications approved by course personnel.
b. Course participants shall be free to sit anywhere within the course
seating provided. Course participants shall not be inhibited from
sitting beside anyone of their choice.
c. Course participants shall be allowed to wear and use watches and
timepieces.
d. Course participants shall be free to take notes and retain
possession of written course study materials and/or worksheets after
completion of the course.
e. Course participants shall be free to leave and re-enter the course
room when necessary, at their discretion, in a way that does not
interrupt the course.
f. Course participants shall be allowed to make and receive phone calls
when necessary to them, in a way which does not disrupt the course.
7. No methods which promote heightened susceptibility to suggestion or
limit or impede course participants' ability to make conscious
choices and/or decisions shall be employed without advising the
participants in full in advance and allowing them to freely choose
whether to participate in that section of the course.
8. Course participants shall always have the right to decline to
participate in any activity, process or exercise, without
recrimination.
9. Course participants shall be free to discuss, during the course,
ideas which the provider may disagree with or find controversial,
without recrimination.
10. Course participants shall always have the right to leave a course
and receive a full refund, or, following the completion of the course,
be given a full refund upon request within _(? Time period)___.
11. No more than fifteen minutes of any course shall be devoted to
promoting registration in further courses.
12. It shall be the responsibility of any company/organization offering
human potential courses to market its courses. Course
participants/customers shall not be utilized as an unpaid sales staff.

a. No more than five minutes of any course shall be devoted to
promoting marketing of the organization's courses to friends,
relatives, and acquaintances of the customers.
b. Course content shall never include targeting bringing in other
customers.
c. Customers who market the company's courses shall be defined as
salesmen, and shall be paid sales commissions, as established by
legislation/defined in written contracts?
13. No one under the age of 18 shall participate in a human potential
course, unless such course is conducted by licensed psychotherapists,
solely using methods accepted for psychotherapeutic use.
14. Customers of any company or entity offering human potential courses
shall be paid for any work or services requested by the company or
entity and shall treat them as contract labor in accordance with labor
laws within the prevailing jurisdiction. Customers being trained to
perform work within the company or entity shall not be charged for any
part of such training.
15. Companies/organizations providing human potential courses shall not
call or contact customers or prospective customers against the wishes
of the customer or prospective customer.
16. Companies/organizations providing human potential courses shall not
extensively threaten or engage in litigation that comprises a pattern
of intimidation inhibiting the free expression of ideas and opinions in
variance with the claims of the human potential company/organization.
17. No one shall be required by his/her employer to take a human
potential course. Further, neither explicit nor implicit pressure
shall be utilized within the workplace to unduly influence any employee
to take a human potential course. This would include, but not be
limited to, a recommendation to take a human potential course by a
superior.
18. Any study groups and oversight bodies established by legislation
shall have free access to all educational/training/course materials and
contractual agreements with customers, trainers, licensees and
salespeople.
19. Study groups and oversight bodies shall have free access to monitor
all trainings and courses, including courses/trainings established for
course leaders/facilitators, without restriction by the company or
entity offering the human potential courses.
20. Any complaints or observations of unwanted course outcomes known to
any companies/organizations offering human potential courses shall be
reported to an oversight body as established by legislation. Since
these courses claim to be life-altering, all unwanted outcomes during
or subsequent to course participation shall be reported as potentially
connected to course participation.
21. Companies providing human potential courses shall post these
standards and ethics in company offices, meeting places, and course
rooms. They shall post the contact information of the oversight body
operating in that jurisdiction in company literature, offices, meeting
places, and course rooms, and on the company website.

Markus Welch

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Jul 5, 2006, 12:21:44 AM7/5/06
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"Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152071748.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> With some really good help, here's a second draft:
>
<SNIP>

You can't be serious.

(what to do about breaks if a course has 150 participants....and this in a
second draft? Why 150 and not 134?)

Amazing.

Estie

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Jul 5, 2006, 12:39:46 AM7/5/06
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I explained the rationale for that last night. Do you know how LGAT's
work?

We got it, Markus, you like the LGAT's exactly the way they are. Other
than the LGAT defenders, you're the only person.

Estie

HAPPYsamurai

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Jul 5, 2006, 12:47:42 AM7/5/06
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now please I don't want to be condescending

but if I may ask you both to be patient with each other

Marcus has something to offer here but it must be added at the right
time

Marcus, tho you can see the hole now, you are better to wait til they'v
run around the field a few more times b4 you point it out to them

focus your thoughts on what you want them to understand

they WILL get it when they are ready

.

Markus Welch

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Jul 5, 2006, 12:55:25 AM7/5/06
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"Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152074386....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

You are the graduate, not me, right? What does that mean in terms of
understanding?

Are you claiming some knowledge due to your experience, that can be applied
in general, and that I lack?

Think about that before you claim some sort of superior wisdom.


Estie

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Jul 5, 2006, 12:59:26 AM7/5/06
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I'd like to see things from Markus' point of view, but I can't seem to
get my head that far up his ass, and besides, there's a broomstick in
there.

Estie

Estie

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Jul 5, 2006, 1:05:10 AM7/5/06
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Markus Welch wrote:
> "Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1152074386....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Markus Welch wrote:
> >> "Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1152071748.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >> > With some really good help, here's a second draft:
> >> >
> >> <SNIP>
> >>
> >> You can't be serious.
> >>
> >> (what to do about breaks if a course has 150 participants....and this in
> >> a
> >> second draft? Why 150 and not 134?)
> >>
> >> Amazing.
> >
> > I explained the rationale for that last night. Do you know how LGAT's
> > work?
> >
> > We got it, Markus, you like the LGAT's exactly the way they are. Other
> > than the LGAT defenders, you're the only person.
> >
> > Estie
> >
>
> You are the graduate, not me, right? What does that mean in terms of
> understanding?
>
> Are you claiming some knowledge due to your experience, that can be applied
> in general, and that I lack?
>
> Think about that before you claim some sort of superior wisdom.

I'm asking if you know how LGAT brainwashing works, what techniques are
used, what conditions are necessary for it to occur. You could acquire
that knowledge through personal experience, with the right perspective,
or through research, or through both.

I'm busy now. Can I ignore you some other time?

Estie

Markus Welch

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Jul 5, 2006, 1:08:48 AM7/5/06
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"Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152075566.2...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> I'd like to see things from Markus' point of view, but I can't seem to
> get my head that far up his ass, and besides, there's a broomstick in
> there.
>
> Estie

Then there is the matter of respect, which I think sheds some light on the
motivations of the proposed legislation.

How do you justify yourself Estie?

Estie

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Jul 5, 2006, 1:31:46 AM7/5/06
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Markus Welch wrote:
> "Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1152075566.2...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'd like to see things from Markus' point of view, but I can't seem to
> > get my head that far up his ass, and besides, there's a broomstick in
> > there.
> >
> > Estie
>
> Then there is the matter of respect, which I think sheds some light on the
> motivations of the proposed legislation.
>
> How do you justify yourself Estie?

May a parrot nest in your nostril.

Estie

Tex

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Jul 5, 2006, 2:56:31 AM7/5/06
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"Markus Welch" <mar...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:s7Hqg.34078$VE1....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...

LOL!!!
I've obviously underestimated you Markus.
Well said.
>
>
>


Tex

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Jul 5, 2006, 2:59:13 AM7/5/06
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"Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152075566.2...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> I'd like to see things from Markus' point of view, but I can't seem to
> get my head that far up his ass, and besides, there's a broomstick in
> there.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

I've underestimated you too Estie.
You had me a while ago with the "Tex" singing the cowboy songs!

Eldonbraun

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Jul 5, 2006, 7:55:48 AM7/5/06
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> or through research, or through both.\

The matter of assigning the duration and frequency of breaks according
to the number of participants is only one of logistical principle. It
can have a footnote saying these are preliminary estimates to be
determined. I found that obvious.

What I do find interesting is the myopic nature of this nitpicking.

Of course, in Marcus' view it shouldn't happen anyway. Perhaps instead,
people should rise above the petty level of cult influence and have a
nice lunch with Dagny Taggert at a tony restaurant -- like Windows on
the World, perhaps? The view from there was certainly inspiring. But we
live in different times now.

HAPPYsamurai

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Jul 6, 2006, 6:22:32 AM7/6/06
to
Eldonbraun wrote:

>
> The matter of assigning the duration and frequency of breaks according
> to the number of participants is only one of logistical principle. It
> can have a footnote saying these are preliminary estimates to be
> determined. I found that obvious.
>
> What I do find interesting is the myopic nature of this nitpicking.
>
> Of course, in Marcus' view it shouldn't happen anyway. Perhaps instead,
> people should rise above the petty level of cult influence and have a
> nice lunch with Dagny Taggert at a tony restaurant -- like Windows on
> the World, perhaps? The view from there was certainly inspiring. But we
> live in different times now.

LOL

LOL

sigh...

marcus ... what is more preferable to you...

that estie get your point when she is ready to hear it

or that

she respect you and listen to it now, when she probably won't have the
required framework to digest it and utilise it properly

timing....

when the ram has his horns caught in the fence it is his timing not his
force that will free him...

whether estie is right or wrong... she will benefit from this excercise

i could ramble off more metaphors and parables.... patience my friend,
she may yet see your point "psychically" or come to it in her own
time...

and , may I suggest, by u forcing her to get the truth now , you are
contridicticng the truth you wish her to see...

either that or I'm addicted to seeing irony.... is pathos any better?

Tex

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Jul 6, 2006, 10:39:04 AM7/6/06
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"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152181352.5...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

well then you've come to the right place Hap!!!! {:~D


.... is pathos any better?
>


Markus Welch

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Jul 7, 2006, 12:55:09 AM7/7/06
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"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152181352.5...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

The only 'force' presented here is the proposed legislation.

Debate is not force, is it? Like the point of a gun is force?

But you didn't mean that, right?

HAPPYsamurai

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Jul 7, 2006, 1:52:04 AM7/7/06
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Tex wrote:

> well then you've come to the right place Hap!!!! {:~D
>

why Tex are you asking me to dance?

HAPPYsamurai

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Jul 7, 2006, 1:59:14 AM7/7/06
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Markus Welch wrote:

> Debate is not force, is it? Like the point of a gun is force?
>
> But you didn't mean that, right?

timing timing timing


no point spell checking the first draft.....

I see a big hole too

maybe they're ready for it

my experience is you wait until they kinda half stumble on it them
selves

like socratic teaching

gently guide them there thru questioning

or esp if you believe in "alignment"

see if we all choose the truth we all end up agreeing eventually

but society is man made, truth now becomes effectiveness to achieve the
result... but first we must agree on desired result...

a young man refuses to go to war because of his ethics, the same man
later in life goes to war to fight for the country that gave him the
right to stand for his ethics when he was younger...

time makes the wine

Markus Welch

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Jul 7, 2006, 1:59:45 AM7/7/06
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"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152251524.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

> Tex wrote:
>
>> well then you've come to the right place Hap!!!! {:~D
>>
> why Tex are you asking me to dance?
>

Maybe it's a line dance?


Serena Nordstrup

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Jul 7, 2006, 7:58:05 AM7/7/06
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No!

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