Similarities/Distinctions between Landmark and other trainings
Transfrmtn
I would like to hear from those of you who have done work at Landmark as
well as
some other type of training of similar transformational power and scope as
Landmark; to get a feel for how others view the similarities and
differences, as well as how the different courses were impactful. I'd
also love to know of other powerful trainings I may not yet have heard of!
Landmark was my first large-group training experience. The Forum was a
magical experience for me; I felt like it gave a coherency to my belief
system about life in a way that really brought me to an entirely new level
of effectiveness.
I had been in school studying psychology, and the notion that this level
of deep work was possible, with that many people, in only three days,
totally blew my paradigm about what was possible for human growth and
development. In essence, I was smitten with the technology.
I jumped in with both feet. I did just about everything they offered--the
Advanced Course, SELP, Assisting, both Comm Courses, and the IFLP as soon
as they became available to me. While they were all great courses,
however, none of them seemed to quite anywhere near the magnitude of
effect on me as my Forum did. (I suppose the entire 6.5 months of the
IFLP was at least close to that level, though.)
By the end of my IFLP, though, I was feeling very stuck. I knew, going
all the way back to my Advanced Course, that I never really experienced
any power around the distinction of enrollment. As my IFLP completed, I
found myself saying that it seemed as though I was stopped by some kind of
irrational fear, possibly pre-verbal in origin. I began to wonder if
somehow, Landmark was not going to be able to assist me in
exploring/transforming this fear, given its fully language-based
("linguistic ontological") approach.
Thus, I set out looking for what else was out there. In very short order,
I participated in trainings at Lifespring, Insight, and Sterling.
Sterling was a major disappointment. Here in the Boston area, there has
been great overlap between Landmark and Sterling participation, and I
rarely hear anyone say anything bad about Sterling who has actually done
it. Philosophically, though, it really did not work for me, because after
all I had learned about living in possibility, it seemed to me that
Sterling seemed to come from a presumption of no possibility--i.e. men and
women are simply their rackets (to use Landmark's terms), and here are
some tips and advice on how to manage a relationship in the face of the
given that men and women inherently don't relate well. (I know I'm
leaving myself open to major flame action by saying this--I just can get
very emotional when I talk about this. My apologies to those of you who
disagree.)
Lifespring and Insight, on the other hand, were both really fabulous
experiences for me. The only thing that was less than ideal, and I did
not know this ahead of time, was how similar the two are. Insight was
developed by a Lifespring trainer named Russell Bishop in the late 70's
(only about 4 years after Lifespring came into existence), and most of the
major processes of the two seminars are EXACTLY THE SAME! However,
qualitatively, they are very different, particularly in approach.
Lifespring is more similar to Landmark in some ways (and particularly, it
may be much more similar to what est used to be like): it uses enrollment
as a key distinction of their trainings (Insight is much more low-key
about this). Lifespring is very confrontational in nature--both as a
method in their trainings as well as what I experienced as "hard-core"
enrollment into the next seminar, such as I had never experienced at
Landmark (for those offended by Landmark's practices in this area, it
really could be much worse, believe me!).
What was interesting, though, was that precisely because I had done the
Landmark work, I was able to relate to their practices as "that's just how
they do it", without getting offended as I probably would have before.
Plus, I had already learned to say NO when appropriate, although here I
wanted to say yes anyway.
Insight is where I'm spending most of my energies these days. I'd
probably be posting this message to an Insight newsgroup if one existed.
(I am still involved at Landmark--I'm heading into the 3rd weekend of the
Wisdom course. I still look at my whole Landmark experience as EXTREMELY
valuable to me.) For me, Insight is all about loving; about rediscovering
the core of who we really are. It is in some ways, practical tools that
lead to a deeper spirituality for those who want that. (Although nothing
is pushed on you--Insight is the most respectful in not being "pushy" of
any organization I've done work at.) I met my girlfriend at Insight
(which is something I'd put at stake in every Landmark course I'd ever
done!). We actually met in the Insight II--an incredibly intense training
where we actually got to meet each other from the inside out; in 5 days,
we did the equivalent of several months worth of work in a typical
relationship. I am FINALLY tapping into that loving place inside of me
that makes enrollment possible.
What's next for me? I want to lead this kind of work someday. (I'm only
28, I figure this is probably a multi-year plan.) Insight offers a course
called Insight IV which used to be "facilitator training", a 35-day course
that I'm looking to take this summer (again, it seems so awesome to me
that it is just offered as a course; I don't need to commit to
facilitating for Insight first, because I don't know whether Insight is my
ultimate path). And, I'm always looking for cool new trainings. I will
probably do the HAI (Sex, Love, and Intimacy) Trainings (clothing
optional!) at some point in the future. And, I'd love to hear from any of
you out there as to your experiences in different types of trainings, as
well as how those trainings have worked together with your work at
Landmark (I find all this work very complementary and mutally supportive).
If you feel as though your reply is on-topic for this newsgroup, feel
free to post it here--if not, you can E-mail me at my address below.
Thanks everyone, for the opportunity to share my experiences. Best of
luck to you all as you take the next steps in your own journeys.
Warmest regards,
Roger Wakefield
Trans...@aol.com
hi...@acm.org
In article <19970401154...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
trans...@aol.com (Transfrmtn) wrote:
> [...]
> By the end of my IFLP, though, I was feeling very stuck. I knew, going
> all the way back to my Advanced Course, that I never really experienced
> any power around the distinction of enrollment. As my IFLP completed, I
> found myself saying that it seemed as though I was stopped by some kind of
> irrational fear, possibly pre-verbal in origin. I began to wonder if
> somehow, Landmark was not going to be able to assist me in
> exploring/transforming this fear, given its fully language-based
> ("linguistic ontological") approach.
Congratulations! You just stumbled over one of the greatest barriers
of every language based approach: Goedels famous "incompleteness theorem".
It proves (in pure math) that every language based system is either
complete (able to model everything) or free of contradictions, but
never both.
Given this, landmark provides a "way of being" (system) which tries
to be applicable to every aspect of live (complete) and has to cope
with unavoidable contradictions, which are often labeled as "Orwell's
newspeak" in this NG.
What could you do?
Perhaps you had the children's game of connecting 9 points with
four straight lines in your forum:
X X X
X X X
X X X
It is only solveable if you "jump out of the system".
Try to be without words and concepts.
If you like to experience that in a group, you may try a Zen course
or something like that. As Werner Erhard once stated, Zen had
a great influence on his own transformation and the technology he
greated.
But as a warning:
You won't get anything - you already have it.
You won't see anything more - it's just as it is.
You won't get empowered - there is neither a "you" nor a "power"
And if you once will be a trainer you won't get as rich as Erhard.
You'll simply stand at the river and sell water...
If you don't understand that, take Werner again:
"Understanding is the booby price"
Hope that helps (eh - sorry - I mean "is supportive")
Markus
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
dhc...@inlink.com
> Insight is where I'm spending most of my energies these days. I'd
> probably be posting this message to an Insight newsgroup if one existed.
Would you like to learn how to start one? Else, bring your buddies over
here, the more the merrier. :-) Different POV are good. Makes things
interesting.
> What's next for me? I want to lead this kind of work someday. (I'm only
> 28, I figure this is probably a multi-year plan.)
Hi Roger,
Informative post! Do you think you might like to make a chart
for a wwwpage? A compare/contrast in summary style worksheet maybe?
You write it, I'll code it.
Here's a little internet background for you on Insight, since it attracts
you the strongest.
At one time, most people who went up-level in Insight were MSIA ministers.
Is that still the practice?
Here is a positive site to peruse.
Fair use Quote
"John-Roger is the founder and spiritual advisor of MSIA,
and he was the Mystical Traveler from December 1963 through 1988.
There has always been a person who has held or "anchored" the Traveler
Consciousness on the planet at a particular time,
and in 1963 John-Roger received this spiritual mantle."
He stepped down in 1988, (a busy year for that kind of thing)
Here is a humorous, but mildly negative site to peruse.
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/lf2toc.htm
LIFE 102 What to Do When Your Guru Sues You
by Peter McWilliams
Peter gave previous copyright permissions to use this book on the
internet, however the new owners, who were awarded it in a court case,
demand that it not be so distributed, therefore, come and get it while it
is still there.
Mirror site outside the US juridiction, anyone?
So good luck on YOUR journey. Check back and let us know how you like
Hai. Have you tried Avatar? How about Total Overco
<transmission cut off at source>
Linda
JP Cass
>>I participated in trainings at Lifespring, Insight, and Sterling.
Sterling was a major disappointment. Here in the Boston area, there has
been great overlap between Landmark and Sterling participation, and I
rarely hear anyone say anything bad about Sterling who has actually done
it. Philosophically, though, it really did not work for me, because after
all I had learned about living in possibility, it seemed to me that
Sterling seemed to come from a presumption of no possibility--i.e. men and
women are simply their rackets (to use Landmark's terms), and here are
some tips and advice on how to manage a relationship in the face of the
given that men and women inherently don't relate well. (I know I'm
leaving myself open to major flame action by saying this--I just can get
very emotional when I talk about this. My apologies to those of you who
disagree.)<<
I find this really bizarre. Sterling is management consulting and
training group run by Scientologists based on the organizational
principles of L. Ron Hubbard; some have called it a "front group" and
alleged one of its main purposes is to get people into Scientology itself.
Amongst other things, Landmark is considered by Scientology to be a
"suppressive" group meaning that Scientologists may not take its courses,
so only non-Scientologist participants in Sterling (presumably meaning
none of the trainers or staff) could cross back over into Landmark
courses. It's not surprising it didn't agree with you philosophically, as
I would say there is a world of difference in the fundamental
underpinnings of the two -- Erhard and Landmark's work is based on
concepts of compassion and of the interconnectedness of humanity, while
Hubbard and Scientology's principles are based on running over whoever
gets in your way and valuing people only according to their production at
the moment. Since it often comes up, I should note that Erhard studied
Scientology (or perhaps more specifically, Dianetics, back when there was
more of a difference between the two and Dianetics still had some respect
in intellectual circles) only very briefly and comparatively late in his
extensive studies of various disciplines (which included subjects such as
hynpotism and Maltz' psycho-cybernetics that were themselves sources that
Hubbard drew upon); in his biography he acknowledges finding usefulness in
some of Hubbard's techniques but says "zen (buddhism) was essential".
>>Lifespring and Insight, on the other hand, were both really fabulous
experiences for me. The only thing that was less than ideal, and I did
not know this ahead of time, was how similar the two are. Insight was
developed by a Lifespring trainer named Russell Bishop in the late 70's
(only about 4 years after Lifespring came into existence), and most of the
major processes of the two seminars are EXACTLY THE SAME! However,
qualitatively, they are very different, particularly in approach.
Lifespring is more similar to Landmark in some ways (and particularly, it
may be much more similar to what est used to be like): it uses enrollment
as a key distinction of their trainings (Insight is much more low-key
about this). Lifespring is very confrontational in nature--both as a
method in their trainings as well as what I experienced as "hard-core"
enrollment into the next seminar, such as I had never experienced at
Landmark (for those offended by Landmark's practices in this area, it
really could be much worse, believe me!).<<
Lifespring is probably close to the old "est Training". It's founder and
Erhard both were involved with Mind Dynamics and then started their own
trainings. Several threads here have noted that it's no longer possible
to do the est Training, which is true, but perhaps Lifespring is the
closest one might get to the original flavor.
You might want to know that besides the similarity in content of the
Insight training to the Lifespring training, Insight/MSIA's leader
John-Roger (supposedly retired) was a originally an Eckankar adept who
tried to take over that group upon it's founder's death. Eckankar was
founded by Paul Twitchell, a former right-hand man to Scientology's
Hubbard, who in many cases cut-and-pasted whole sections of Hubbard's
writing right into his own "teachings". John-Roger's personal behavior
and his organization of MSIA into a religion seem very similar to Hubbard
and Scientology. I don't know for sure how much of Eckankar's teachings
John-Roger incorporated into Insight/MSIA though there are some clear
fundamental similarities, but there is a pretty blatant and undisputed
lineage of outright copying here as you have seen for yourself.
Given that a lot of these paths relate to Scientology in one way or
another, I think you might get some insight from reading more about
Hubbard. There are a number of good books now available on the web from
critical Scientology websites (Barefaced Messiah is one) that will give
you the flavor of Hubbard's teachings and organizations, and provide
interesting information about Hubbard's sources.
I am curious to hear more about your perspectives after having done all of
these courses. Do you see all the similarities between them? Does it
just start to seem like a big game? Do you ever wonder if you're just a
seminar junkie?
Regards,
JP
posted & mailed
JP Cass
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>>I think you must be talking about two different 'Sterling' groups.
The one the original poster was referring to does have a large
overlap in the Boston area. I just completed a course in
New York, and only found a few other people who had
also participated in Landmark. There was also no
mention of Scientology and no follow-up courses
available to me. (There is a follow-up 'group',
but only for people who live in certain areas, and
the pressure to join it is minimal to non-existant) There
is only one 'trainer', Mr Sterling. <<
I apologize for my misinformation. I may have been mislead in part by
some confusion of these two groups by others. I must admit that I am
surprised that someone gives seminars under the name "Sterling", given the
possible confusion and potential for lawsuits with the Scientology-based
Sterling Management. The homepage of the latter is at
http://www.sterling-management.com
Please tell us more about the course Mr. Sterling presents.
Regards,
JP
posted, & mailed to both the original poster and the follow-up
p.s. My comments about Insight/MSIA and Eckankar stand as posted. I
double checked all that information. There is a wonderful document on
some pages critical of Eck that shows, side by side, how Twitchell
plagiarized others' writings. Linda's pointer to a webbed version of Life
102 provides good information on Insight/MSIA and John-Roger -- and I
don't mean to imply that doing their training doesn't have value, only
that you need to be cautious about the organization and possible higher
levels of involvement. As the author of Life 102 points out, and is true
of all dubious groups, there is always an entry-level course that is quite
attractive and often quite worthwhile, usually based on compilations of
techniques from other sources (including, in this case, large chunks of
Lifespring's training) and the hard work of very sincere and well meaning
lower level people. Life 102 also presents an excellent picture,
including some expert psychological commentary, on how the "guru" at the
top gets corrupted (some would say, further corrupted) by the power and
adulation afforded their position.
"Do unto others, as if you WERE the others" -- Elbert Hubbard, Rosicrucian and founder of the Roycrofters, on The Golden Rule.
For more Hubbard readings go to http://www.roycrofter.com, or in Schedule+ for Windows 95 go to Tools / 7 Habits / Wisdom
tank...@netcom.ca
JP Cass wrote:
> I apologize for my misinformation. I may have been mislead in part by
> some confusion of these two groups by others. I must admit that I am
> surprised that someone gives seminars under the name "Sterling", given the
> possible confusion and potential for lawsuits with the Scientology-based
> Sterling Management. The homepage of the latter is at
> http://www.sterling-management.com
>
> Please tell us more about the course Mr. Sterling presents.
>
> Regards,
>
> JP
>
No problem about the confusion. As for more information, I did
not enjoy the course at all, but feel somewhat constrained by
the non-disclosure forms I had to sign at the beginning. (Much
more so than by the similar form I had to sign before doing Landmark
work, since Landmark is so encourging of enrollment by sharing,
while Sterling seems to rely on enrolling by trust alone, but
that's another issue.) However, Justin Sterling (and I can't see
how he can sued for the course name when it's his name ;) did
write a book for women. I can't remember the title, but it's his
only book and shouldn't be that hard to find. Both he and
participants in my weekend stated that the book captures
the content, if not the experience of the course.
What I feel I can say, is that I love the results from his
weekend course for men. I completely agree and relate to
his views on men and on relationships. However, it's as
if he created these views, and then for women, instead
of looking at what women truly were or could be, simply
created a vision of women that meshed well with his vision
of men. The men I see coming out of his courses look alive,
energized, and self-expressed. The women seem repressed and
phony. I wish I had dealt more with the women than the men
before I took the weekend.
I've been trying to mail this too, and it keeps getting
bounced, so, what-the-heck, I'll delurk!
Rachel
William O. West
JP Cass wrote:
....
> Lifespring is probably close to the old "est Training". It's founder and
> Erhard both were involved with Mind Dynamics and then started their own
> trainings. Several threads here have noted that it's no longer possible
> to do the est Training, which is true, but perhaps Lifespring is the
> closest one might get to the original flavor.
One of my acquaintances promotes multi-level marketing schemes
and made over a million dollars with one (not Amway) several
years ago. He met Werner at Mind Dynamics (which was MLM) and
took a dislike to him, he said. Werner's personality doesn't
always represent him. In any event, this source said that after
Leadership Dynamics lawsuit that put Mind Dynamics out of business
(vide the movie The Pit with Yvette Mimieux and the paperback
The Pit: a group encounter defiled), that Mind Dynamics was
"reincarnated" as Lifespring, with the same people in the same
position as in the old corporation.
....
On the personality issue, one of my other former acquaintances,
Mr. Robert Miles of Livingston County, Michigan, came across
much warmer to most people than Werner does most of the time.
A couple times, I felt that Werner was reading my mind when we
were in the same room. I don't know exactly how I'd describe
Werner's personality. There is a lot of discipline/integrity
about him, and it bothers me that he smokes, but he doesn't
come across like any sort of "holy man." In contrast, Mr.
Miles was also in sales, and was the president of a good-sized
insurance company in Howell, Michigan. He came across extremely
warm and friendly, as long as he was talking to white people
who ancestors came from England and/or Germany. Miles was fired
from his position when he was indicted for conspiring to dynamite
school buses. Despite his delightful personality, Miles was a
nasty man, and he was also the Grand Dragon of the Michigan Ku
Klux Klan. Personality isn't everything.