Wisdom Course
Larry Person
>> It's a way to separate you from a lot of money and have you nag
everyone you
know to do the Forum.
And this is different than any other landmark course, how?
The gist is that the participants take on the MODEL that "who I am is
a network of conversations." Not the stuff in your head, but the
things you communicate to others and that others communicate to you.
You spend some time analzying who you're in conversation with (which
results in the originating circle display). You build an
autobiography. You note the things you say now and figure out the
"age" of that conversation. That's about when I dropped out.
There's homework and weekly meetings with your homework group. The
meetings got tedious. One of the people in my group was the IFL from
hell and let's just say we didn't get along.
One of the weekends I just didn't feel like going. The interactions I
had with the course leader were revealing and disgusting.
>>>>>>>
From: David (coo...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Wisdom Course????
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
Date: 2001-04-01 01:38:02 PST
Considering Landmark's perspective on things this title seems a bit
odd.
What's the gist of this seminar? (Or is it that there is no such
thing as
"wisdom?")
Dave
Message 2 in thread
From: Estie (Es...@MailAndNews.com)
Subject: RE: Wisdom Course????
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
Date: 2001-04-01 21:19:25 PST
>===== Original Message From "David" <coo...@earthlink.net> =====
>Considering Landmark's perspective on things this title seems a bit
odd.
>What's the gist of this seminar? (Or is it that there is no such
thing as
>"wisdom?")
>
>Dave
Well, the last time we discussed this, I think someone called it the
"Whiz-Dumb" Course. :) And then there was the point that if this was
the
Wisdom Course, what were all the others?
It's a way to separate you from a lot of money and have you nag
everyone you
know to do the Forum. Where's Larry? He did part of it.
- Estie
<<<<<<<
Gordon Grieder
"Larry Person" <La...@LarryPerson.com> wrote in message
news:a40e350.01052...@posting.google.com...
> The gist is that the participants take on the MODEL that "who I am is
> a network of conversations." Not the stuff in your head, but the
> things you communicate to others and that others communicate to you.
"[A] network of conversations"
ohhh I *really* like that explanation.
Thanks Larry
G
Rgacons
>> a network of conversations." Not the stuff in your head, but the
>> things you communicate to others and that others communicate to you
You dont have to go to a course to know that. Maturana (www.oikos.org) and
Kenny (same site) would have tell you that. In fact, the idea of conversations
comes from Maturana, a chilean neurobiologist and forn John Searle (Speech Act)
You dont like Maturana? Well, the look for Fernando Flores, he has some cheap
books (and great books) that analizes that fenomena. Dont like Fernando
Flores?, search Ron Smothermon, www.contextpub.com, he is a great writer that
have live near Werner. His book, Winning Trorough Enlighnment, will show you
some wisdon.
Ernest
Tony Pay
rga...@aol.com (Rgacons) wrote:
> > The gist is that the participants take on the MODEL that "who I am
> > is a network of conversations." Not the stuff in your head, but the
> > things you communicate to others and that others communicate to you
>
> You dont have to go to a course to know that.
You don't have to go to a course to know anything. But you can 'know'
things in different ways, and how you know things can change, without
the things themselves changing.
That's why I'm surprised that Fred Kidd is surprised that his notebook
contained 'the same things'.
>... Ron Smothermon, www.contextpub.com, he is a great writer that have
> live near Werner. His book, Winning Trorough Enlighnment, will show
> you some wisdon.
I thought that this book was very good.
But what do I know, O ye who finally (for example) have relationships
that now seem to you, and perhaps to some of us (I don't know) to work;
but which at least, judged by bandwidth-absorbing pictures, are contrary
to what you were able to summon up previously, and may possibly
continue;
...as opposed to those of us who have been doing that sort of thing for
some time now.
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd To...@stsm.demon.co.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339
... Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Tony Pay
f.k...@bellsouth.net (fred kidd) wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2001 21:48:46 +0100, To...@stsm.demon.co.uk (Tony Pay)
> wrote:
>
> > In article <20010527164245...@ng-ms1.aol.com>,
> > rga...@aol.com (Rgacons) wrote:
> >
> > > > The gist is that the participants take on the MODEL that "who I
> > > > am is a network of conversations." Not the stuff in your head,
> > > > but the things you communicate to others and that others
> > > > communicate to you
> > >
> > > You dont have to go to a course to know that.
> >
> > You don't have to go to a course to know anything. But you can
> > 'know' things in different ways, and how you know things can change,
> > without the things themselves changing.
> >
> > That's why I'm surprised that Fred Kidd is surprised that his
> > notebook contained 'the same things'.
>
> It contains the same words,
OK
> repeated by the same AC Leader,
OK
> in the same tone of voice,
OK
> in the same room,
OK
> to the same people
OK
> at the same time.
...erm...
> They generated the same result the first time I heard them.
Oh. Erm...
> I'm not surprised by noticing the same words repeated, repeatedly. I
> noticed the same thing at the Forum, at LEC Seminars and the part of
> the SELP that I attended. If there were no repetition, the Forum
> would last approximately 4 hours, the AC 2 hours and the SELP 5
> minutes.
Part of my work is to teach playing the clarinet, and therefore music in
general, to students of varying ability. It would indeed be nice if
they were able to take in whatever wisdom I can muster, without my
repeating myself.
Dream on, Tone.
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd To...@stsm.demon.co.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339
... Make yourself at home... clean my kitchen.
Adrien
To...@stsm.demon.co.uk (Tony Pay) wrote in message news:<20010528....@stsm.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <3p93htssnrm7nku4t...@4ax.com>,
> f.k...@bellsouth.net (fred kidd) wrote:
<...>
>
> > I'm not surprised by noticing the same words repeated, repeatedly. I
> > noticed the same thing at the Forum, at LEC Seminars and the part of
> > the SELP that I attended. If there were no repetition, the Forum
> > would last approximately 4 hours, the AC 2 hours and the SELP 5
> > minutes.
>
> Part of my work is to teach playing the clarinet, and therefore music in
> general, to students of varying ability. It would indeed be nice if
> they were able to take in whatever wisdom I can muster, without my
> repeating myself.
>
> Dream on, Tone.
How long does it take for an average student to learn to play the
clarinet (not just a couple of tunes poorly played I mean)?
IOW, how long does it take you to inculcate to a student the
technology that will transform them from a non player to a decent
player? How much of this can be done within 3 days?
My guess is that it makes a marginal difference whether you repeat
yourself for 3 hours or 3 days as a teacher, same "dream" and illusion
since we know that learning to play some decent clarinet will more
probably take something like 3 years.
So if 3 hours makes no practical difference with 3 days, why bother?
Or is it that the 'teacher' is passing on some other 'wisdom' that
needs 3 days (intensive ones) for people to 'take' besides 'clarinet
wisdom'? Like for instance that the more they 'share' the seminar with
people around them, the better they will play clarinet, etc...
Just my twos.
-- Adrien
Tony Pay
upnu...@my-deja.com (Adrien) wrote:
You're right. But of course, a large part of that work will be done by
the student. My work is to continue to represent to the student the
principles that they have to adopt at any point in that longer journey;
and those principles, though they're pretty much constant throughout the
process (of course, that's not *quite* true) apply in different ways at
different stages.
> So if 3 hours makes no practical difference with 3 days, why bother?
There are a number of different models that can be used. One is the
weekly lesson, another the Summer Course (I teach a month-long one in
Siena) that is a concentrated presentation of one teachers viewpoint,
applied to each of the members of a class. Perhaps, in the analogy I
think you're implying, that sort of thing would correspond to the
'intensive' quality of the Forum and similar courses, whereas the weekly
lesson would correspond to the seminar series.
Typically, in either, you can't tell someone something until they're
'ready to hear it', and music students take away much less than you'd
think from such an intensive course. I actually say this at the
beginning of the course, and suggest to them that if they find just
*one* idea that they can 'make grow' in their own playing, they'll have
done well.
Students sometimes write to me years later, saying that they've only
just understood what I was telling them. (I should say that that
doesn't say anything particularly meaningful about the 'profundities'
that I deliver, just something about how these things work. Of course,
I am quite good:-)
> Or is it that the 'teacher' is passing on some other 'wisdom' that
> needs 3 days (intensive ones) for people to 'take' besides 'clarinet
> wisdom'? Like for instance that the more they 'share' the seminar with
> people around them, the better they will play clarinet, etc...
I do have to say that the work that I did around what was at the time,
'est', had a very strong relationship to what is required to play and
perform well.
This relationship was appreciated particularly by an actor and
director, Dan Fauci, who had a similar experience. It led to his
setting up what was then called 'The Actors' Institute', and in
particular, to his creation of a course, 'The Mastery', which was highly
useful to actors and musicians in this country, and I'm sure also in the
US, in the early 80's.
(....getting all this, yobbos of Maidenhead?;-)
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd To...@stsm.demon.co.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339
... He who hesitates is probably right.
Rgacons
>spoken..............unless they existed in a parallel space time
>continuum and were taking the AC for extraterrestrial credit.
...but each participant filtered that words according to their own
experience...very very different. You can ask each participant in each training
and each heared something different. It´s not the trainer who does the
training, it is the participant experience...there is no one course...there are
as many courses as participants are in the room.
>Perhaps you're the type of personality that can read a book once and
>come away with what you consider the reality communicated by the
>author but upon subsequent readings you "discover" alternative and new
>meanings that you missed upon first review. Maybe you've given this
>ability a name ?
I dont know the ability´s name, but I know I´ve read books and there are books
that have read me, for example those from Ron Smothermon. There are books that
when I have read them, they (and I of course) have change my own perception of
reality.
>'m sure, at least I hope, that you've on occasion had moments of
>extreme clarity.
Yes, and that moment, which I will never foget, happens 14 years ago in the
Communication Course I, which was designed for Werner Erhard and Associates by
Fernando Flores. But, happily, I discovered later other great sources for that
extreme clarity, like some great readings, other personal processes and, first
of all, with my clients, salespeople which I´ve coached succesfully since then.
>I spoke with other participants about what was happening with me and
>all I got was "Forumspeake" responses. They couldn't understand how I
>could question what was happening and "invalidate" their experiences.
Dont ask trainees, ask your own reality, it always give you feedback about how
you are, really, and use that power or "state of mind" usefully and purposedly.
My CC trainer told me once: Brilliant insight, great state and what about real
action?)
Ernest
Alan
Tony Pay
al...@someplace.earth ("Alan") wrote:
> > (....getting all this, yobbos of Maidenhead?;-)
> Yes... thx Tony :)
And put your baseball cap on the 'right' way round, for Chrissake.
God, I don't know what she sees in you....:-)
Tony
--
_________ Tony Pay
|ony:-) 79 Southmoor Rd To...@stsm.demon.co.uk
| |ay Oxford OX2 6RE GMN artist: http://www.gmn.com
tel/fax 01865 553339
... It is fatal to live too long.
Alan
for landmark muppets:) I just pop in to 'see' whats happening here.. and
its not much to be honest :)
love ya and see ya laters
Alan
xx
"Tony Pay" <To...@stsm.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
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