David Letterman in Werner parody on Mork & Mindy

[Caligari]

David Letterman on Mork and Mindy as Ellsworth parodying Werner Erhard
and Erk parodying est,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoQiXXP00IE

The episode aired on February 8, 1979,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_Goes_Erk

[Tex]

Thanks.
that was funny.

[Caligari]

On Apr 27, 9:17 pm, Tex <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks.
> that was funny.
>
>
>
> ?On Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:30:16 PM UTC-4, Caligari wrote:
>
>

Yea, it's fun to see the parody interpretations from back then.
Though I agree with TJ that it's not too accurate -- at least in
capturing the way Werner was. After I found this I looked for video
of the Six Feet Under episode I heard of that did a take on Landmark
using architectural jargon. This was well done,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGBnHdPGJ54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-_TEgqff3Q

;)

[patrick]

i think we need to do a forum on the newsgroup.

cali and i could be the leaders, even thougn there usually is just one.

we can share.

what do u think droids ?

[tubby]

You can try it Patrick.
Just don't mention " the Jinn"

cheers

[tubby]

On Apr 29, 4:33 am, Caligari <enric.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 9:17 pm, Tex <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks.
> > that was funny.
>
> > ?On Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:30:16 PM UTC-4, Caligari wrote:
>
> Yea, it's fun to see the parody interpretations from back then.
> Though I agree with TJ that it's not too accurate -- at least in
> capturing the way Werner was.  After I found this I looked for video
> of the Six Feet Under episode I heard of that did a take on Landmark
> using architectural jargon.  This was well done,
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGBnHdPGJ54
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-_TEgqff3Q

I looked at the six foot Under episode.

Cal can you explain why people were upset when the participant on
stage
was asked to bring her father along to the next enrollment session.

Apart from the ethical criticism of this form of enrolment ( Which in
this case
was not an issue) why all the fuss?????

Is not the request one of "forgiveness" the foundation value of
Christianity.

Can you throw some light on this for me.

Cheers Bruno

[Caligari]

Hi Bruno,

You may want to watch the clip again. The father of this woman tried
to burn her alive because he dreamed she wasn't chaste. Half her face
that was hidden by her hair is scarred with burns. He also never
wants to see her again. Now why would someone want to forgive and see
someone who is intent on murdering them and wants nothing to do with
them regardless of relationship?

-- Caligari

[Serena Nordstrup]

On 5 May, 14:44, tubby <btono...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 29, 4:33 am, Caligari <enric.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 27, 9:17 pm, Tex <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks.
> > > that was funny.
>
> > > ?On Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:30:16 PM UTC-4, Caligari wrote:
>
> > Yea, it's fun to see the parody interpretations from back then.
> > Though I agree with TJ that it's not too accurate -- at least in
> > capturing the way Werner was.  After I found this I looked for video
> > of the Six Feet Under episode I heard of that did a take on Landmark
> > using architectural jargon.  This was well done,
>
> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGBnHdPGJ54
> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-_TEgqff3Q
>
> I looked at the six foot Under episode.
>
> Cal can you explain why people  were upset when the participant on
> stage
> was asked to bring her father along to the next enrollment session.
>
> Apart from the ethical criticism of this form of enrolment ( Which in
> this case
> was not an issue) why all the fuss?????
>
> Is not the request one of "forgiveness" the foundation value of
> Christianity.

Since you ask, Bruno, self-sacrifice in the acceptance of punishment
as a criminal forms the foundational value of Christianity.

[tubby]

Fair point Cal,
However in my experience assisting in the Workshops most
of spilling of the guts episodes I saw were mainly due
misunderstandings, bad communications
and just plain stupid human interactions that had gone off the rails.
In these cases I felt the confrontational forgiveness actions that the
Forum leaders requested often
worked wonders for the participants.
Of course there was no guarantee that they would work and possibly
for some they did not.

Cheers Bruno

[tubby]

Serena can you expand on that just to make it clearer so I can
understand
what you are saying.

Cheers

[Serena Nordstrup]

Lots of older religions advocate sacrifice as a primitive form of
bargaining with the divine. Christianity picks up on the human-
sacrifice angle and adds in degrading punishment meted out to the most
notorious criminals - crucifixion. And there you have your
foundational ~value~ - the testament and the passion.

[tubby]

Right but then forgiveness as an active action has been shown to
help lighten and heal the pains of the soul or mind or the Psyche.

You do not agree with this????

Cheers

[Serena Nordstrup]

I've seen no evidence for a soul, let alone a soul having pains. Does
this just apply to ~victims~?

> Cheers

[tubby]

Just gave you all the choices fair Muse so you would not hold me up
for any discrimination.
Christians in the group also read my every word just like you and may
have appreciated their inclusion in the discussion.

But you did not answer the question namely whether Forgiveness was a
positive
action to take.

Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
quiet?????

cheers

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Cheers

[Caligari]

Maybe, maybe not. It's a pablum that you should forgive your enemies
at least for your own sake -- and definitely come from Christianity
(turning the other cheek, forgive them for they know not what they
do...) But it's such a generalized word that can mean just about
anything and easily misused. Simon Wiesenthal lived a good, fine life
never forgiving and continuing to hunt down nazis.

-- Caligari

[tubby]

So it all goes back to what we actually mean by the words we speak and
the actions
we take .

Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
to bring at least
some speck of clarity to the discussion he was so often howled down
by the Nordstrags
of the group for doing so.

Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
holds.

Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you ( all of us ) or is it " An
eye for an eye......Tooth"
as the Old testament preaches.

Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.

As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold and has really
nothing to do
with Landmark.

Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
just to make some sense
of the whole discussion.

Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
perception.

Once we have sorted that out logical debate could follow more easily.

cheers Bruno

[Serena Nordstrup]

Does this just apply to ~victims~, Bruno?

> > > Just gave you all the choices fair Muse so you would not hold me up
> > > for  any discrimination.
> > > Christians in the group also read my every word just like you and  may
> > > have appreciated their inclusion in the discussion.

You implied only one soul. You may want to do somw more work on that
inclusiveness, Bruno.

> > > But you did not answer the question namely whether Forgiveness was a
> > > positive
> > > action to take.
>
> > Maybe, maybe not.  It's a pablum that you should forgive your enemies
> > at least for your own sake -- and definitely come from Christianity
> > (turning the other cheek, forgive them for they know not what they
> > do...)  But it's such a generalized word that can mean just about
> > anything and easily misused.  Simon Wiesenthal lived a good, fine life
> > never forgiving and continuing to hunt down nazis.
>
> >   -- Caligari
>
> So it all goes back to what we actually mean by the words we speak and
> the actions
> we take .

Rubbish. Just bear the subtleties of different meanings in mind.

> Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
> to bring at least
> some speck of clarity to the discussion  he  was so often howled down
> by the Nordstrags
> of the group for doing so.

Which ones? Please give an example or so.

> Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
> holds.

... or even more helpfully, leave beliefs out of the picture and
concentrate on proven effects and consequences.

> Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you  ( all of us )  or is it " An
> eye for an eye......Tooth"
> as the Old testament preaches.

Hey, we could play the ~distinction~ game! -- Semantically,
forgiveness does not equal vengeance.

> Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.
>
> As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold

Rubbish. Rosenbergist value-snivelling poppycock!

> and has really
> nothing to do
> with Landmark.

Except any discussion may show up the hollowness and insubstantiality
of rosenbergism in comparison...

> Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
> just to make some sense
> of the whole discussion.

Eat your cake and have it.

> Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
> perception.

Have we established that marriages take place in Malta? or did someone
re-define Malta retrospectively and retroactively?

> Once we have sorted that out  logical debate could follow more easily.
>
> cheers  Bruno

> > > Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
> > > quiet?????

And after EST took rosenbergism to the penitentiaries of non-Brazilian
America, positive things happened: guards released prisoners
wholesale, politicians closed jails, judges proclaimed the right to
freedom, and forgiveness reigned, yeah right! Measurable results with
integrity and velocity!

[tubby]

Maltese ones????
Don't know any.
Find some and ask them.

>
> > > > Just gave you all the choices fair Muse so you would not hold me up
> > > > for  any discrimination.
> > > > Christians in the group also read my every word just like you and  may
> > > > have appreciated their inclusion in the discussion.
>
> You implied only one soul. You may want to do somw more work on that
> inclusiveness, Bruno.

Nuh . The Maltese will take care of that.
You should know that by now.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > But you did not answer the question namely whether Forgiveness was a
> > > > positive
> > > > action to take.
>
> > > Maybe, maybe not.  It's a pablum that you should forgive your enemies
> > > at least for your own sake -- and definitely come from Christianity
> > > (turning the other cheek, forgive them for they know not what they
> > > do...)  But it's such a generalized word that can mean just about
> > > anything and easily misused.  Simon Wiesenthal lived a good, fine life
> > > never forgiving and continuing to hunt down nazis.
>
> > >   -- Caligari
>
> > So it all goes back to what we actually mean by the words we speak and
> > the actions
> > we take .
>
> Rubbish. Just bear the subtleties of different meanings in mind.

What Rubbish the gobble de dook you spray constantly.
Please explain in detail the rubbish of the above statement.

>
> > Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
> > to bring at least
> > some speck of clarity to the discussion  he  was so often howled down
> > by the Nordstrags
> > of the group for doing so.
>
> Which ones? Please give an example or so.

Its all in the posts Madame Serena Nordstroooooooooop
For everyone to see and ponder about. Especially your words of wisdom.

>
> > Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
> > holds.
>
> ... or even more helpfully, leave beliefs out of the picture and
> concentrate on proven effects and consequences.

Nuh because that 's where you Circle Jerk.
If we go back to basic assumptions it could lay some kind of
foundation to make certain we are all talking about the same thing.

>
> > Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you  ( all of us )  or is it " An
> > eye for an eye......Tooth"
> > as the Old testament preaches.
>
> Hey, we could play the ~distinction~ game! -- Semantically,
> forgiveness does not equal vengeance.

Why not?
ANd you could lead us all singing in your melodious fog horn voice

" On wards Christian Soldiers..........................Glen

Imagine all the converts who would follow you to the end of the earth.
Patrick would be happy>

>
> > Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.
>
> > As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold
>
> Rubbish. Rosenbergist value-snivelling poppycock!

An explanation would help our readers follow your stinging criticism
of your boyfriends philosophy in action.
Be careful now as we will be following every word you write.

>
> > and has really
> > nothing to do
> > with Landmark.
>
> Except any discussion may show up the hollowness and insubstantiality
> of rosenbergism in comparison...

Fine but only time will tell if this is so , or just a wee speck in
that enormous
sophisticated logical mind of yours.

>
> > Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
> > just to make some sense
> > of the whole discussion.
>
> Eat your cake and have it.

That' s right dear Muse.
De Bono called it " Water Logic"

You wouldn't like it there because Circle Jerking just can't happen.
The water logic unfortunately for you keeps you honest.

>
> > Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
> > perception.
>
> Have we established that marriages take place in Malta? or did someone
> re-define Malta retrospectively and retroactively?

Don't know but I will look it up and report back to you sooonest.
These Maltese are popular in your mythology, did you by chance marry
one????
They are a happy fun people and I have many Maltese friends here in
Australia.
They know how to make the best out of life.

>
> > Once we have sorted that out  logical debate could follow more easily.
>
> > cheers  Bruno
> > > > Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
> > > > quiet?????
>
> And after EST took rosenbergism to the penitentiaries of non-Brazilian
> America, positive things happened: guards released prisoners
> wholesale, politicians closed jails, judges proclaimed the right to
> freedom, and forgiveness reigned, yeah right! Measurable results with
> integrity and velocity!

Okay I will take your word for it dear Muse.
TJ said you knew all about EST etc.

Are you a fallen ex Forum Leader who could not make the grade or saw
the light before they committed themselves????

Just curious.

Sleep well dear Muse.

After my recent vacation I came home with a rotten cold so spend a few
days in bed recovering.
The earthing I mentioned in previous posts does help you sleep deeper
so that might help you get through the night?


cheers

[Serena Nordstrup]

To any ~victims~, including Maltese ~victims~.

> Don't know any.

Does not knowing any ~victims~ disqualify you from discussing
~victimhood~ in the grand tradition of rosenbergism's smear-
campaigning, Bruno?

> Find some and ask them.

Good ploy. "Hello, my friend -- please show me your soul(s) (if
any)..."

> > > > > Just gave you all the choices fair Muse so you would not hold me up
> > > > > for  any discrimination.
> > > > > Christians in the group also read my every word just like you and  may
> > > > > have appreciated their inclusion in the discussion.
>
> > You implied only one soul. You may want to do somw more work on that
> > inclusiveness, Bruno.
>
> Nuh . The Maltese will take care of that.
> You should know that by now.

But I don't. Perhaps someone failed to ~educate~ me in political
correctness as preached by Maltese.

> > > > > But you did not answer the question namely whether Forgiveness was a
> > > > > positive
> > > > > action to take.
>
> > > > Maybe, maybe not.  It's a pablum that you should forgive your enemies
> > > > at least for your own sake -- and definitely come from Christianity
> > > > (turning the other cheek, forgive them for they know not what they
> > > > do...)  But it's such a generalized word that can mean just about
> > > > anything and easily misused.  Simon Wiesenthal lived a good, fine life
> > > > never forgiving and continuing to hunt down nazis.
>
> > > >   -- Caligari
>
> > > So it all goes back to what we actually mean by the words we speak and
> > > the actions
> > > we take .
>
> > Rubbish. Just bear the subtleties of different meanings in mind.
>
> What  Rubbish the gobble de dook  you spray constantly.
> Please explain in detail the rubbish of the above statement.

You used the word "all" for starters...

> > > Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
> > > to bring at least
> > > some speck of clarity to the discussion  he  was so often howled down
> > > by the Nordstrags
> > > of the group for doing so.
>
> > Which ones? Please give an example or so.
>
> Its all in the posts Madame  Serena Nordstroooooooooop

I searched the archives and found no other use of the term
"Nordstrag". To which of the thousands of posts do you refer?

> For everyone to see and ponder about. Especially your words of wisdom.
>
>
>
> > > Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
> > > holds.
>
> > ... or even more helpfully, leave beliefs out of the picture and
> > concentrate on proven effects and consequences.
>
> Nuh because that 's where you  Circle Jerk.

You detect "circle jerkery", I see rational inquiry based on definite
occurrences...

> If we go back to basic assumptions it could lay  some kind of
> foundation to make certain we are all talking about the same thing.

Right. That gets rid of mere beliefs.

> > > Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you  ( all of us )  or is it " An
> > > eye for an eye......Tooth"
> > > as the Old testament preaches.
>
> > Hey, we could play the ~distinction~ game! -- Semantically,
> > forgiveness does not equal vengeance.
>
> Why not?

Because http://thesaurus.com/browse/vengeance (for instance) lists
"forgiveness" as an antonym of "vengeance", OK?

> ANd you could lead us all singing in your melodious fog horn voice
>
> " On wards Christian Soldiers..........................Glen
>
> Imagine all the converts who would follow you to the end of the earth.
> Patrick would be happy>

Alternatively, we could discuss Christianity (which you asked about)
as something more than the practice of forgiveness...

> > > Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.
>
> > > As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold
>
> > Rubbish. Rosenbergist value-snivelling poppycock!
>
> An explanation would help our readers follow your stinging criticism
> of your boyfriends philosophy in action.
> Be careful now as we will be following every word you write.

~values~ need not come into it. They tend to obfuscate discussion.

> > > and has really
> > > nothing to do
> > > with Landmark.
>
> > Except any discussion may show up the hollowness and insubstantiality
> > of rosenbergism in comparison...
>
> Fine  but only time will tell if this is so , or just a wee speck in
> that enormous
> sophisticated logical mind of yours.

The archives might help too.

> > > Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
> > > just to make some sense
> > > of the whole discussion.
>
> > Eat your cake and have it.
>
> That' s right dear Muse.
>  De Bono called it   " Water Logic"

Where did de Bono define water logic as eating your cake and having
it?

> You wouldn't like it there because  Circle Jerking just can't happen.

Without knowing anything about this circle-jerking (which you've not
defined), I suggest that eating your cake and having it may not
preclude circle-jerking. If not why not?

> The water logic  unfortunately for you keeps you honest.

How?

> > > Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
> > > perception.
>
> > Have we established that marriages take place in Malta? or did someone
> > re-define Malta retrospectively and retroactively?
>
> Don't know but I will look it up and report back to you sooonest.

Thanks. I would like an answer by May 25, please.

> These Maltese are popular in your mythology, did you by chance marry
> one????

I wouldn't leave marriage to chance, Bruno. Heard to many horror
~stories~...

> They are a happy fun people and I have many Maltese friends here in
> Australia.
> They know how to make the best out of life.

Because of their Maltese background? Because of their friendship with
yourself?

> > > Once we have sorted that out  logical debate could follow more easily.
>
> > > cheers  Bruno
> > > > > Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
> > > > > quiet?????
>
> > And after EST took rosenbergism to the penitentiaries of non-Brazilian
> > America, positive things happened: guards released prisoners
> > wholesale, politicians closed jails, judges proclaimed the right to
> > freedom, and forgiveness reigned, yeah right! Measurable results with
> > integrity and velocity!
>
> Okay I will take your word for it dear Muse.

We can regard that as settled, then. Yeah right!

> TJ said you knew all about EST etc.

And you believed her/him?

> Are you a fallen ex Forum Leader who could not make the grade or saw
> the light before they committed themselves????

I don't define myself in terms of a discredited floundering cult,
Bruno. You?

> Just curious.
>
> Sleep well dear Muse.
>
> After my recent vacation I came home with a rotten cold so spend a few
> days in bed recovering.
> The earthing I mentioned in previous posts  does help you sleep deeper
> so that might help you get through the night?

Because of piezoelectricity? Or because of organic minerals? Or
because of stray Ley lines in suburban Victoria?

Slimily
Serena

[tubby]

Is that all. What poppycock you come up with!!!!

>
> > > > Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
> > > > to bring at least
> > > > some speck of clarity to the discussion  he  was so often howled down
> > > > by the Nordstrags
> > > > of the group for doing so.
>
> > > Which ones? Please give an example or so.
>
> > Its all in the posts Madame  Serena Nordstroooooooooop
>
> I searched the archives and found no other use of the term
> "Nordstrag". To which of the thousands of posts do you refer?

Of course not . You were not looking hard enough or using common
sense.

>
> > For everyone to see and ponder about. Especially your words of wisdom.
>
> > > > Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
> > > > holds.
>
> > > ... or even more helpfully, leave beliefs out of the picture and
> > > concentrate on proven effects and consequences.
>
> > Nuh because that 's where you  Circle Jerk.
>
> You detect "circle jerkery", I see rational inquiry based on definite
> occurrences...

Of course you do.
Lets agree to disagree.

>
> > If we go back to basic assumptions it could lay  some kind of
> > foundation to make certain we are all talking about the same thing.
>
> Right. That gets rid of mere beliefs.
>
> > > > Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you  ( all of us )  or is it " An
> > > > eye for an eye......Tooth"
> > > > as the Old testament preaches.
>
> > > Hey, we could play the ~distinction~ game! -- Semantically,
> > > forgiveness does not equal vengeance.
>
> > Why not?
>

> Becausehttp://thesaurus.com/browse/vengeance(for instance) lists

> "forgiveness" as an antonym of "vengeance", OK?
>
> > ANd you could lead us all singing in your melodious fog horn voice
>
> > " On wards Christian Soldiers..........................Glen
>
> > Imagine all the converts who would follow you to the end of the earth.
> > Patrick would be happy>
>
> Alternatively, we could discuss Christianity (which you asked about)
> as something more than the practice of forgiveness...

Not necessary in this case. IMO the act of "forgiveness" was one
reason
why the Landmark workshops were so successful. Pretty simple really.

>
> > > > Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.
>
> > > > As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold
>
> > > Rubbish. Rosenbergist value-snivelling poppycock!
>
> > An explanation would help our readers follow your stinging criticism
> > of your boyfriends philosophy in action.
> > Be careful now as we will be following every word you write.
>
> ~values~ need not come into it. They tend to obfuscate discussion.

In your opinion.
You can't always have it your way Muse.
Lets agree to disagree again

>
> > > > and has really
> > > > nothing to do
> > > > with Landmark.
>
> > > Except any discussion may show up the hollowness and insubstantiality
> > > of rosenbergism in comparison...
>
> > Fine  but only time will tell if this is so , or just a wee speck in
> > that enormous
> > sophisticated logical mind of yours.
>
> The archives might help too.
>
> > > > Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
> > > > just to make some sense
> > > > of the whole discussion.
>
> > > Eat your cake and have it.
>
> > That' s right dear Muse.
> >  De Bono called it   " Water Logic"
>
> Where did de Bono define water logic as eating your cake and having
> it?

I added that extra just for you Ms. Nordstrap.

>
> > You wouldn't like it there because  Circle Jerking just can't happen.
>
> Without knowing anything about this circle-jerking (which you've not
> defined), I suggest that eating your cake and having it may not
> preclude circle-jerking. If not why not?

Don't know.
Let me ask TJ, he was a fan of yours.

>
> > The water logic  unfortunately for you keeps you honest.
>
> How?

It would closely follow reality in time and space and bring you to the
present.

No Circle Jerking here Muse.
Not for materialists like yourself.

>
> > > > Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
> > > > perception.
>
> > > Have we established that marriages take place in Malta? or did someone
> > > re-define Malta retrospectively and retroactively?
>
> > Don't know but I will look it up and report back to you sooonest.
>
> Thanks. I would like an answer by May 25, please.

Nuh, How about May 25 2050.
Achievable by then if I am still around.

>
> > These Maltese are popular in your mythology, did you by chance marry
> > one????
>
> I wouldn't leave marriage to chance, Bruno. Heard to many horror
> ~stories~...

There you go Muse always listening to gossip.

>
> > They are a happy fun people and I have many Maltese friends here in
> > Australia.
> > They know how to make the best out of life.
>
> Because of their Maltese background? Because of their friendship with
> yourself?

Bit of both dear Muse.
Are my remarks a problem for you??

>
> > > > Once we have sorted that out  logical debate could follow more easily.
>
> > > > cheers  Bruno
> > > > > > Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
> > > > > > quiet?????
>
> > > And after EST took rosenbergism to the penitentiaries of non-Brazilian
> > > America, positive things happened: guards released prisoners
> > > wholesale, politicians closed jails, judges proclaimed the right to
> > > freedom, and forgiveness reigned, yeah right! Measurable results with
> > > integrity and velocity!
>
> > Okay I will take your word for it dear Muse.
>

> We can regard that as settled, then. Yeah ...

Don't know anything about it Muse.
On another note did your boyfriend Werner say that his approach to
life was
infallible????
My understanding of it was on the lines of "Suck it and see""
That 's what made it attractive.

The joy of having that personal experience to verify the ideas you had
been sold
made the encounter more solid and worthwhile.



Cheers
>
> read more »

[Serena Nordstrup]

More to follow -- once you have justified your use of the word "all"
in your ridiculous claim " it all goes back to what we actually mean

by the words we speak and the actions we take" .

> > > > > Whenever Tex and others tried to define their words in the early days
> > > > > to bring at least
> > > > > some speck of clarity to the discussion  he  was so often howled down
> > > > > by the Nordstrags
> > > > > of the group for doing so.
>
> > > > Which ones? Please give an example or so.
>
> > > Its all in the posts Madame  Serena Nordstroooooooooop
>
> > I searched the archives and found no other use of the term
> > "Nordstrag". To which of the thousands of posts do you refer?
>
> Of  course not . You were not looking hard enough or using common
> sense.

I cannot find posts where undefined so-called "Nordstrags" "often
howled down" Tex. You cannot or will not provide examples. Your claim
fails (pending more evidence).

> > > For everyone to see and ponder about. Especially your words of wisdom.
>
> > > > > Also it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what beliefs one
> > > > > holds.
>
> > > > ... or even more helpfully, leave beliefs out of the picture and
> > > > concentrate on proven effects and consequences.
>
> > > Nuh because that 's where you  Circle Jerk.
>
> > You detect "circle jerkery", I see rational inquiry based on definite
> > occurrences...
>
> Of course you do.
> Lets agree to disagree.

Your claim that "it would be helpful to be upfront and own up to what
beliefs one holds" fails for lack of agreed evidence.

> > > If we go back to basic assumptions it could lay  some kind of
> > > foundation to make certain we are all talking about the same thing.
>
> > Right. That gets rid of mere beliefs.
>
> > > > > Does Forgiveness mean some thing to you  ( all of us )  or is it " An
> > > > > eye for an eye......Tooth"
> > > > > as the Old testament preaches.
>
> > > > Hey, we could play the ~distinction~ game! -- Semantically,
> > > > forgiveness does not equal vengeance.
>
> > > Why not?
>

> > Becausehttp://thesaurus.com/browse/vengeance(forinstance) lists

> > "forgiveness" as an antonym of "vengeance", OK?

OK, Bruno?

> > > ANd you could lead us all singing in your melodious fog horn voice
>
> > > " On wards Christian Soldiers..........................Glen
>
> > > Imagine all the converts who would follow you to the end of the earth.
> > > Patrick would be happy>
>
> > Alternatively, we could discuss Christianity (which you asked about)
> > as something more than the practice of forgiveness...
>
> Not necessary in this case. IMO the act of "forgiveness"   was one
> reason
> why the Landmark workshops were so successful. Pretty simple really.

You selected the example of Christianity and claimed forgiveness (of
whom? by whom?) as a core value of Christianity. You haven't
substantiated your claim, nor have you refuted my alternative analysis
of the basis of Christianity. Your claim fails, despite your attempt
to switch the discussion to your ~opinion~ of alleged causes of so-
called ~landmark~ so-called ~education~'s alleged successes (if any).

> > > > > Certainly would help if that was clarified from the start.
>
> > > > > As then it becomes a debate about the values we hold
>
> > > > Rubbish. Rosenbergist value-snivelling poppycock!
>
> > > An explanation would help our readers follow your stinging criticism
> > > of your boyfriends philosophy in action.
> > > Be careful now as we will be following every word you write.
>
> > ~values~ need not come into it. They tend to obfuscate discussion.
>
> In your opinion.
> You can't always have it your way Muse.
> Lets agree to disagree again

You mean: If you don't mention ~value~ or ~values~, I may soft-pedal
the silly vagueness of the emphasis that so-called ~landmark~ so-
called ~education~ places on the words ?

> > > > > and has really
> > > > > nothing to do
> > > > > with Landmark.
>
> > > > Except any discussion may show up the hollowness and insubstantiality
> > > > of rosenbergism in comparison...
>
> > > Fine  but only time will tell if this is so , or just a wee speck in
> > > that enormous
> > > sophisticated logical mind of yours.
>
> > The archives might help too.
>
> > > > > Nothing to do with logic also, although logical debate would follow
> > > > > just to make some sense
> > > > > of the whole discussion.
>
> > > > Eat your cake and have it.
>
> > > That' s right dear Muse.
> > >  De Bono called it   " Water Logic"
>
> > Where did de Bono define water logic as eating your cake and having
> > it?
>
> I added that extra just for you Ms. Nordstrap.

Your claim that de Bono called eating your cake and having it "water
logic" fails for lack of evidence.

> > > You wouldn't like it there because  Circle Jerking just can't happen.
>
> > Without knowing anything about this circle-jerking (which you've not
> > defined), I suggest that eating your cake and having it may not
> > preclude circle-jerking. If not why not?
>
> Don't know.

You claim that circle-jerking "just can't happen" under "water-logic"
conditions fails pending the provision of evidence.

> Let me ask TJ, he was a fan of yours.

You made the claim, you have failed to substantiate it...

> > > The water logic  unfortunately for you keeps you honest.
>
> > How?
>
> It would closely follow reality in time and space and bring you to the
> present.

How does that promote honesty?

> No Circle Jerking here Muse.
> Not for materialists  like yourself.

Not even of less-materialisticall Tuesdays?

> > > > > Thats why I favour De Bono, who has argued that its all about
> > > > > perception.
>
> > > > Have we established that marriages take place in Malta? or did someone
> > > > re-define Malta retrospectively and retroactively?
>
> > > Don't know but I will look it up and report back to you sooonest.
>
> > Thanks. I would like an answer by May 25, please.
>
> Nuh,  How about May 25 2050.

Unacceptable. Please "report back ... soonest" as you promised.

> Achievable by then if I am still around.
>
> > > These Maltese are popular in your mythology, did you by chance marry
> > > one????
>
> > I wouldn't leave marriage to chance, Bruno. Heard to many horror
> > ~stories~...
>
> There you go Muse always listening to gossip.

And such great gossip! -- Such as the "Anna Karenina" theory of
marriage, for example...

> > > They are a happy fun people and I have many Maltese friends here in
> > > Australia.
> > > They know how to make the best out of life.
>
> > Because of their Maltese background? Because of their friendship with
> > yourself?
>
> Bit of both dear Muse.

This implies that people of Maltese background who lack friendship
with yourself may not know so well how to make the best of ~life~ as
those people of Maltese background who do not lack friendship with
yourself.

Quite a claim, Bruno.

> Are my remarks a problem for you??

Unsupported by evidence, your remarks appear to hold little water. The
phrase "waste of space" springs to mind...

> > > > > Once we have sorted that out  logical debate could follow more easily.
>
> > > > > cheers  Bruno
> > > > > > > Funny how when any thing positive happened in Landmark everyone goes
> > > > > > > quiet?????
>
> > > > And after EST took rosenbergism to the penitentiaries of non-Brazilian
> > > > America, positive things happened: guards released prisoners
> > > > wholesale, politicians closed jails, judges proclaimed the right to
> > > > freedom, and forgiveness reigned, yeah right! Measurable results with
> > > > integrity and velocity!
>
> > > Okay I will take your word for it dear Muse.
>
> > We can regard that as settled, then. Yeah ...
>
> Don't know anything about it Muse.
> On another note did your boyfriend Werner say that his approach to
> life was
> infallible????

My Argentinian acquaintance Werner did have trenchant political views.
Why do you ask?

> My understanding of it was on the lines of "Suck it and see""
> That 's what made it attractive.

The indefinite fuzziness made it attractive to you. Riiiiight...

> The joy of having that personal experience to verify the ideas you had
> been sold
> made the encounter more solid and worthwhile.

You had a similar reaction to your encounter with Nietzsche?

Slimily and slipperily
Serena