Posted especially for Happ
bruno Tonon
This is for you since you enquired about my mate.
I have just received it so its hot of the press.
Happy reading
cheers
Rutherford Hill, Rutherford, California, USA
August 25, 2007
Hello!
I'm Laurence.
Base Nature, the latest essay in the Conversations For Transformation
internet series, is now published and is available for reading and
downloading.
Please go to
http://laurenceplatt.home.att.net/wernererhard
then refresh your browser and click on
Base Nature
Preamble:
This essay, written standing in transformation, looks back in time to my
life before transformation, confronting some of the things I did then which
are difficult for me to look at. While it's not an option to pretend my past
didn't happen, transformation recontextualizes my past.
Excerpt:
I'll never have not done what I've done. I'll never have not said what I've
said. Transformation can't and doesn't save me from my deeds nor from my
speech before transformation. What transformation can do and does do is
reach back into my past and recontextualize what I did and what I said
before transformation. Transformation can't and doesn't change my base
nature. What transformation can do and does do is recontextualize my base
nature. In the oleo of human behavior, cruelty epitomizes base nature to me.
The cruelty in my own base nature is my hardest past to live with. Whether
it was distinguished at the time or not, it's hard to confront. And
especially if it was distinguished at the time, it's even harder to
confront. It doesn't make any difference whether or not my base nature was
directed at animals or at human beings although for the most part it's been
easiest to clean it up afterwards when it was directed at human beings.
Thank You for Your Listening.
With my Love,
Laurence
Eldon
This sounds like just about the biggest bunch of self-serving and
evasive bullshit I ever read. (I could, however, make exceptions for
Scientology as well as medieval Catholic and Islamic excesses.)
Is that Goji berry juice messing up your brain, or do you just imagine
it healed you?
Tex
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1188223369.7...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Bruno.
>
> This sounds like just about the biggest bunch of self-serving and
> evasive bullshit I ever read. (I could, however, make exceptions for
> Scientology as well as medieval Catholic and Islamic excesses.)
LOL!!!
You left out narcissistic and self-absorbed.
I can see where Ellen could have formed her opinion about est/Landmark.
HAPPYsamurai
> The cruelty in my own base nature is my hardest past to live with. Whether
> it was distinguished at the time or not, it's hard to confront. And
> especially if it was distinguished at the time, it's even harder to
> confront. It doesn't make any difference whether or not my base nature was
> directed at animals or at human beings although for the most part it's been
> easiest to clean it up afterwards when it was directed at human beings.
>
> Thank You for Your Listening.
>
> With my Love,
>
> Laurence
so what did you get out of this bruno ?
i managed to keep up
tho I'm can't say his model is infallible it is aplicable within
defined context
"base nature" has a different meaning in some christian contexts - ie
it can be changed and transformed
but i assume he is talking about what the inner "kali" achetype
if you are really into this you might try "iron john" as a read
Bly is way more "poetic" in his model of befreinding ones inner beast
and learning to harness its energy wisely and with compassion for
others
for me its all about matuing the inner child - if the "base
nature" [if we are on the same wavelength] is not directly joined to
the arogant tantrum throwing inner child - then you are sweet
but one must have acces to the energy for "righteous anger" - ie
defending you loved ones
we on the same page Bruno
or am i at cross purposes with you again ?
bruno Tonon
"HAPPYsamurai" <profst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1188259411....@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Nothing as I haven't read it. You brought Laurence to my attention
so I thought I had better send you his latest Email.
>
> i managed to keep up
>
> tho I'm can't say his model is infallible it is aplicable within
> defined context
>
> "base nature" has a different meaning in some christian contexts - ie
> it can be changed and transformed
>
> but i assume he is talking about what the inner "kali" achetype
>
>
> if you are really into this you might try "iron john" as a read
>
> Bly is way more "poetic" in his model of befreinding ones inner beast
> and learning to harness its energy wisely and with compassion for
> others
>
> for me its all about matuing the inner child - if the "base
> nature" [if we are on the same wavelength] is not directly joined to
> the arogant tantrum throwing inner child - then you are sweet
>
> but one must have acces to the energy for "righteous anger" - ie
> defending you loved ones
>
> we on the same page Bruno
No But I have read of the above writers.
>
> or am i at cross purposes with you again ?
I don't think so , although I am a little confused
since you recently asked me about my experience
with self Help groups and I replied that it was rather
limited. I was hoping you would continue the
conversation and tell me what your experience was
yet you never replied.
Am I asking too much????
We can talk about concepts , ideas about the self
and the inner child adnauseum, but nothing beats the real
thing.
I was led to Landmark by my nephew by chance.
Can't say I was too brave at Forum but looking
back I enjoyed it and got something out of it just
like Tex got something out of Est.
You know Happ, I reckon you could handle Forum and
live to tell the tale.
Why don't you go to see for yourself rather than rely
on second /third hand information.
You are not afraid of being brainwashed are you?????
Maybe thats where we are different you seem to like
talking about it more than experiencing it????
On another note Happ , any reason why the Ranters here
are not into self disclosure at least at a non threatening level????
(Serena will want to put her two pennies worth once I mention
the word Ranter)
I thought that was a good basis for being assertive by
speaking in the first person about how one felt or
experienced things???
( I know Tex is not into feely things but I have a feeling you
are, being in the healing profession)
cheers
>
HAPPYsamurai
> On 28 Aug, 23:05, "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> hap writes>
>
> > > we on the same page Bruno
>
> > No But I have read of the above writers.
>
> > > or am i at cross purposes with you again ?
>
> > I don't think so ,
>
>
> were not on the same page but we are not at cross purposes either ?
>
> although I am a little confused
>
> > since you recently asked me about my experience
> > with self Help groups and I replied that it was rather
> > limited. I was hoping you would continue the
> > conversation and tell me what your experience was
> > yet you never replied.
>
> that might be more understandable to u - that's all - so we could
> define some common principles
>
> > Am I asking too much????
>
> > We can talk about concepts , ideas about the self
> > and the inner child adnauseum, but nothing beats the real
> > thing.
>
>
> > I was led to Landmark by my nephew by chance.
> > Can't say I was too brave at Forum but looking
> > back I enjoyed it and got something out of it just
> > like Tex got something out of Est.
>
> > You know Happ, I reckon you could handle Forum and
> > live to tell the tale.
>
>
> > Why don't you go to see for yourself rather than rely
> > on second /third hand information.
>
> intellegent opinions
>
>
>
> > You are not afraid of being brainwashed are you?????
>
>
> i would do it for "interest" value
>
> just as i would climb the hymalayas
>
> or build a tesla "free energy" generator
>
> or run for president of the UN etc etc
>
> for your information I have had several close friends who have done it
> - some who have even advised me i needn't bother
>
> some who say i would find it interesting - some who say don't waste
> your time and money
>
> i just get the impression you think LM is totally unique - where as i
> have yet to see anything that reveals that fact
>
> u post lawrences zen - yet i have friends who have trained in
> monestaries
>
> i can talk with them about their "education" and its transformative
> powers - i can find a commonality in the principles of growth in the
> human experience -
>
> if the discussion of LM - leavess me with no hint that it has
> something to offer why bother going there ?
>
> i remain open to
> discussion about the core values and strategies of this particular
> school of personal growth to see if there is anything there worth
> further research
>
> but all i seem to get is sales hype and a nebulous philosophy
>
> i ask about ethics - and get told it is irrelevent - which reveals to
> me the values of the organisation
>
>
>
> > Maybe thats where we are different you seem to like
> > talking about it more than experiencing it????
>
> experience - if met others who have "integrated" their "experience" and they can hear
> the concepts and principles in my words and they know from eperience you cannot learn
> these things without experience
> once again - werner never DID est or LM - he learnt what he knew from life experience - is this impossible for others to achieve?
>
>
> > On another note Happ , any reason why the Ranters here
> > are not into self disclosure at least at a non threatening level????
>
> psuedenem for all I know
>
> but i can still relate to the wisdom in his words
>
> to restare from another angle
>
> if you read lawrences words - would they have any less meaning to you
> if he used the name HAPPY samurai ?
>
> would you let that name stop you from hearing his wisdom ?
>
> a rose by any other name
>
> i don't need to know who eldon or serena is to hear when they make
> sense
>
>
>
> > (Serena will want to put her two pennies worth once I mention
> > the word Ranter)
>
> > I thought that was a good basis for being assertive by
> > speaking in the first person about how one felt or
> > experienced things???
>
>
> > ( I know Tex is not into feely things but I have a feeling you
> > are, being in the healing profession)
>
people are different -
> > cheers
>
> i came here to observe something about LM
>
> all i get is - go do it
>
> fine - i hear you - and it appears we can NEVER get past this point
>
> yet i can read SOCRATES - and tho i will never get the EXPERIENCE of
> doing a socratic forum [he's dead] i can still get an appreciation of
> his thoughts and wisdom - his values and virtues - [and I can EXPERIENCE them by trying to apply them in my daily life]
>
> not saying I don't DO "active" experiential stuff too
>
> i hope you understand me when i say
>
> i assume havin done the forum - your life is now your forum - ie your
> life is the arena where you actively live what you know and keep
> experiencing your personal growth
>
> have I said this clearly ?
>
> so knowing the goals and strategies of my own personal development i
> have an arena to experience them daily and work with them as my
> awareness and being permit
>
> you have hassled me about "bedside manner" seeing as no one here is in
> "bed" i assume u are hinting that my interactive skills could be
> better
>
> i hear you - my own take is that there is a time for couching words
> and a time for frankness - i thought this arena for discussion was a
> little more robust
>
> the irony is of course Pat is hassling that Werner's "bedside manner"
> was inappropriate
>
> know that in other arenas i "experientially" apply your wisdom - and
> soften my words
>
> as i experience other growth opportunities
>
> but unfortunatley i have just broken rule # 17 and therefore you are
> not likely to find this consoling or enlightening
>
> luckily u have LM to fall back on
>
> ;-)
sorry the last comment was a blue herring - ie there is a truth in it
but it is VERY couched
Tex
>>
>
> i came here to observe something about LM
>
> all i get is - go do it
That's all you hear?????
Perhaps you have a "hearing" problem then.
Lot's more is being said.
Like I've said, save your money.
Thanks for telling us you know people who have taken Landmark courses.
What can you learn here though if you only get "go do it?"
Perhaps you have selective listening.
HAPPYsamurai
> <<Big snip>>
>
>
>
> > i came here to observe something about LM
>
> > all i get is - go do it
>
> That's all you hear?????
> Perhaps you have a "hearing" problem then.
> Lot's more is being said.
> Like I've said, save your money.
> Thanks for telling us you know people who have taken Landmark courses.
> What can you learn here though if you only get "go do it?"
> Perhaps you have selective listening.
>
i didn't mean to overlook your enthusiastic contributions to the world
of humor
HAPPYsamurai
> On 29 Aug, 16:46, "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <<Big snip>>
>
> > > i came here to observe something about LM
>
> > > all i get is - go do it
>
> > That's all you hear?????
> > Perhaps you have a "hearing" problem then.
> > Lot's more is being said.
> > Like I've said, save your money.
> > Thanks for telling us you know people who have taken Landmark courses.
> > What can you learn here though if you only get "go do it?"
> > Perhaps you have selective listening.
>
and raising awareness of ad hominen attacks
- do u use them yourself ?
other than here, i mean
Tex
>>
>>
>>
>> > i came here to observe something about LM
>>
>> > all i get is - go do it
>>
>> That's all you hear?????
>> Perhaps you have a "hearing" problem then.
>> Lot's more is being said.
>> Like I've said, save your money.
>> Thanks for telling us you know people who have taken Landmark courses.
>> What can you learn here though if you only get "go do it?"
>> Perhaps you have selective listening.
>>
>
>
> humor
>
And I did mean to point out your global assertion about "all you hear."
Now give us another haiku, won't you? ;-D
Tex
Are we not talking to each other?
Are you not making specious claims that "all (you) get is - go do it"?
What "hominem" should I be addressing here?
The accidental samurai?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai
Surely someone who describes themself as a samurai wouldn't be offended by
such an innocuous comment as having selective listening.
Maybe they don't make samurais like they used too.
I think you would fit right in with the "touchy-feely" crowd!
bruno Tonon
"Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5OSdnf2iJ8LbrUvb...@comcast.com...
Come on Tex nothing wrong with the "Touchy-feely crowd"
I'm one of those myself, just like Serena and Ellen.
I think Eldon may have those tendencies too.
So thats what I have in common with
the Happy Samurai
cheers
>
bruno Tonon
>>
>> No But I have read of the above writers.
>>
>>
>>
>> > or am i at cross purposes with you again ?
>>
>> I don't think so ,
>
>
>
>
> were not on the same page but we are not at cross purposes either ?
>
>
>
>
>> since you recently asked me about my experience
>> with self Help groups and I replied that it was rather
>> limited. I was hoping you would continue the
>> conversation and tell me what your experience was
>> yet you never replied.
>>
>
> that might be more understandable to u - that's all - so we could
> define some common principles
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> We can talk about concepts , ideas about the self
>> and the inner child adnauseum, but nothing beats the real
>> thing.
>
>
Good question Happ. Let me think about it as its not easy
to answer.
>
>
>> I was led to Landmark by my nephew by chance.
>> Can't say I was too brave at Forum but looking
>> back I enjoyed it and got something out of it just
>> like Tex got something out of Est.
>>
>> You know Happ, I reckon you could handle Forum and
>> live to tell the tale.
>
> I also know this for a fact
Good. I'll ring LEC and find out when the next course is on.
Forum should be a good entry for you
>
>
>> Why don't you go to see for yourself rather than rely
>> on second /third hand information.
>
> bacausse i like having people in my life who talk my language and give
> intellegent opinions
>
>
>>
>> You are not afraid of being brainwashed are you?????
>
>
> not at all -
>
> i would do it for "interest" value
You know Happ no one really needs it or has to do it,
but if you took it on as a study of observing Group
dynamics in action you may just find it interesting.
>
> just as i would climb the hymalayas
>
> or build a tesla "free energy" generator
>
> or run for president of the UN etc etc
>
> for your information I have had several close friends who have done it
> - some who have even advised me i needn't bother
I met some of those, I felt the ones that did not have much interest
were usually the uptight ones. Merely my observations of course.
>
> some who say i would find it interesting - some who say don't waste
> your time and money
>
>
>
> i just get the impression you think LM is totally unique - where as i
> have yet to see anything that reveals that fact
Well it was unique for me but that does not say much as I have lived
a cloistered life.
>
> u post lawrences zen - yet i have friends who have trained in
> monestaries
I do it to stir the pot. I don't read them however I think Lawrence
is a "good bloke" who has found his niche in life and is happy sharing
his view of the world.
>
> i can talk with them about their "education" and its transformative
> powers - i can find a commonality in the principles of growth in the
> human experience -
>
>
> if the discussion of LM - leavess me with no hint that it has
> something to offer why bother going there ?
I'll bet your friends didn't discuss their experiences with Ellen, Serena
or Patrick??????
>
> i have over come the seductive powers of mystique - but remain open to
> discussion about the core values and strategies of this particular
> school of personal growth to see if there is anything there worth
> further research
You don't seem open to me Happ, you've made up your mind
about what you want to explore and thas fine also.
>
> but all i seem to get is sales hype and a nebulous philosophy
Yes thats part of it, but the group dynamics is interesting and the
Sharing when its real I think is the nectar that holds it all toghether
and makes it worth studying it.
>
> i ask about ethics - and get told it is irrelevent - which reveals to
> me the values of the organisation
Its a business Happ and it sells a product.
>
>
>>
>> Maybe thats where we are different you seem to like
>> talking about it more than experiencing it????
>
> you assume my talking is not the tip of the iceburg of my actual
> experience - if you had "integrated" your "experience" you would hear
> the concepts and principles in my words and realise you cannot learn
> these things without experience
Great, why don't you tell us about your experiences. I'm interested
in what you got out of them.
>
>
>>
>> On another note Happ , any reason why the Ranters here
>> are not into self disclosure at least at a non threatening level????
>
> i read Socrates - i have never met the man - socrates could be a
> psuedenem for all I know
>
> but i can still relate to the wisdom in his words
>
> to restarte from another angle
>
> if you read lawrences words - would they have any less meaning to you
> if he used the name HAPPY samurai ?
>
> would you let that name stop you from hearing his wisdom ?
Don't you think Socrates is easier to understsand. Uses simple language
to explore challenging ethical questions????
Lawrence is a little too flowery for me.
Anyhow Happ thanks for giving us a little more information about
yourself. I found it interesting.
Makes you more human.
cheers
>
> a rose by any other name
>
> i don't need to know who eldon or serena is to hear when the make
> sense
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> (Serena will want to put her two pennies worth once I mention
>> the word Ranter)
>>
>> I thought that was a good basis for being assertive by
>> speaking in the first person about how one felt or
>> experienced things???
>>
>
> and it possibly is for you - and you act on it - good work
>
>
>
>
>> ( I know Tex is not into feely things but I have a feeling you
>> are, being in the healing profession)
>>
>> cheers
>>
>>
>
> i came here to observe something about LM
>
> all i get is - go do it
Would your friends survive in this group by explaining their
monastry experiences and not get cut up by our resident sharks
Serena wanting more evidence and Ellena spewing abuse in every
direction so as to stop the conversation/
Look at what happened to Chris lee lately who just can't get any
interesting conversations up and running.
>
> fine - i hear you - and it appears we can NEVER get past this point
>
> yet i can read SOCRATES - and tho i will never get the EXPERIENCE of
> doing a socratic forum [he's dead] i can still get an appreciation of
> his thoughts and wisdom - his values and virtues
Forum is not a talk fest. Its an experimental adventure.
Some people learn from it others get nothing out of it.
>
> not saying I don't DO "active" experiential stuff too
Care to tell us about it. That sounds interesting???????
>
> i hope you understand me when i say
>
> i assume havin done the forum - your life is now your forum - ie your
> life is the arena where you actively live what you know and keep
> experiencing your personal growth
>
> have I said this clearly ?
Having done Forum has made my inner contradictions bearable. I can live
with them though I still can't ged rid of them.
Also helped to understand and comunicate with a little more empathy.
Would dearly love to have more personal growth.
>
> so knowing the goals and strategies of my own personal development i
> have an arena to experience them daily and work with them as my
> awareness and being permit
>
> you have hassled me about "bedside manner" seeing as no one here is in
> "bed" i assume u are hinting that me interactive skills could be
> better
More empathy with the patients perhaps rather than interactive skills.,
>
> i hear you - my own take is that there is a time for couching words
> and a time for frankness - i thought this arena for discussion was a
> little moe robust
>
> the irony is of course Pat is hassling that Werner's "bedside manner"
> was inappropriate
Sure looks like it.
>
> know that in other arenas i "experientially" apply your wisdom - and
> soften my words
>
> as i experience other growth opportunities
>
> but unfortunatley i have just broken rule # 17 and therefore you are
> not likely to find this consoling or enlightening
I just find it more interesting.
>
> luckily u have LM to fall back on
Hows that. ?
cheers
>
> ;-)
>
Tex
"bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:46d6b5db$0$11059$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
LOL!!
Bingo!!
> cheers
>>
>
>
Serena Nordstrup
> "HAPPYsamurai" <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
Don't think about it for more than three days. Three days suffices for
making a ~choice~ about trivial matters.
> >> I was led to Landmark by my nephew by chance.
> >> Can't say I was too brave at Forum but looking
> >> back I enjoyed it and got something out of it just
> >> like Tex got something out of Est.
>
> >> You know Happ, I reckon you could handle Forum and
> >> live to tell the tale.
>
> > I also know this for a fact
>
> Good. I'll ring LEC and find out when the next course is on.
Get it in writing, Bruno. Don't you find telephones ghastliliy old-
fashioned and gossipy?
Bruno's Openness Quotient (OQ) -- every marketeer's dream tool.
> > but all i seem to get is sales hype and a nebulous philosophy
>
> Yes thats part of it, but the group dynamics is interesting and the
> Sharing when its real I think is the nectar that holds it all toghether
> and makes it worth studying it.
Tell us what you mean by "it", Bruno. As opposed to "it" and to "it".
> > i ask about ethics - and get told it is irrelevent - which reveals to
> > me the values of the organisation
>
> Its a business Happ and it sells a product.
Ethics has no place in commerce? -- Good excuse!
> >> Maybe thats where we are different you seem to like
> >> talking about it more than experiencing it????
>
> > you assume my talking is not the tip of the iceburg of my actual
> > experience - if you had "integrated" your "experience" you would hear
> > the concepts and principles in my words and realise you cannot learn
> > these things without experience
>
> Great, why don't you tell us about your experiences. I'm interested
> in what you got out of them.
Great, why don't you tell us about your education. Some people may
develop an interest in the group dynamics of it.
> >> On another note Happ , any reason why the Ranters here
> >> are not into self disclosure at least at a non threatening level????
>
> > i read Socrates - i have never met the man - socrates could be a
> > psuedenem for all I know
>
> > but i can still relate to the wisdom in his words
>
> > to restarte from another angle
>
> > if you read lawrences words - would they have any less meaning to you
> > if he used the name HAPPY samurai ?
>
> > would you let that name stop you from hearing his wisdom ?
>
> Don't you think Socrates is easier to understsand. Uses simple language
> to explore challenging ethical questions????
> Lawrence is a little too flowery for me.
>
> Anyhow Happ thanks for giving us a little more information about
> yourself. I found it interesting.
> Makes you more human.
More human than what?
Who else detected different degrees of humanity ?
> cheers
>
>
>
>
>
> > a rose by any other name
>
> > i don't need to know who eldon or serena is to hear when the make
> > sense
>
> >> (Serena will want to put her two pennies worth once I mention
> >> the word Ranter)
>
> >> I thought that was a good basis for being assertive by
> >> speaking in the first person about how one felt or
> >> experienced things???
>
> > and it possibly is for you - and you act on it - good work
>
> >> ( I know Tex is not into feely things but I have a feeling you
> >> are, being in the healing profession)
>
> >> cheers
>
> > i came here to observe something about LM
>
> > all i get is - go do it
>
> Would your friends survive in this group by explaining their
> monastry experiences and not get cut up by our resident sharks
> Serena wanting more evidence and Ellena spewing abuse in every
> direction so as to stop the conversation/
Such sharp sharks-teeth: asking for evidence and speaking the truth as
one sees it.
> Look at what happened to Chris lee lately who just can't get any
> interesting conversations up and running.
Horses for courses, Bruno. One man's "interesting" = another man's
equine influenza.
> > fine - i hear you - and it appears we can NEVER get past this point
>
> > yet i can read SOCRATES - and tho i will never get the EXPERIENCE of
> > doing a socratic forum [he's dead] i can still get an appreciation of
> > his thoughts and wisdom - his values and virtues
>
> Forum is not a talk fest. Its an experimental adventure.
No longer an educational product...
> Some people learn from it others get nothing out of it.
>
>
>
> > not saying I don't DO "active" experiential stuff too
>
> Care to tell us about it. That sounds interesting???????
Which bit sounds interesting to your way of thinking, Bruno? and why?
> > i hope you understand me when i say
>
> > i assume havin done the forum - your life is now your forum - ie your
> > life is the arena where you actively live what you know and keep
> > experiencing your personal growth
>
> > have I said this clearly ?
>
> Having done Forum has made my inner contradictions bearable. I can live
> with them though I still can't ged rid of them.
> Also helped to understand and comunicate with a little more empathy.
> Would dearly love to have more personal growth.
If you really want more personal growth, foster a cancer.
HAPPYsamurai
life and "bedside" manner - doesn't long for ethical businesses
try and get a job in top level banking without having to do an ethics
test
a good bar tender used to say no to serving drunks - in the hope of
preventing car accidents
ethics is what makes businesses more human - seeing as businesses -
unlike humans - aren't born with a conscience
will you let me get away with that poetic license serena ?
perhaps you could "edit" it for me