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mother church in the news
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patrick
Nov 8, 2012, 10:36:35 AM11/8/12
to
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15015979-church-of-scientology-sparks-little-controversy-in-religiously-fraught-israel?lite
it appears that any criticism is baseless they say.
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 10:44:05 AM11/8/12
to
On Nov 8, 10:36 am, patrick <patrickda...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15015979-church-of-scie...
> http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15015979-church-of-scie...
>
> it appears that any criticism is baseless they say.
Why do you call it "mother church" Patrick?
> it appears that any criticism is baseless they say.
Caligari
Nov 8, 2012, 1:09:33 PM11/8/12
to
On Nov 8, 7:44 am, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Why does Scientology officially call the Church of Scientology
International the Mother Church?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_International
=======
The Church of Scientology International, Inc. (CSI) is a Californian
501(c)(3) non-profit corporation.[1] Within the worldwide network of
Scientology corporations and entities, CSI is officially referred to
as the "mother church" of the Church of Scientology.
=======
wrote:
International the Mother Church?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_International
=======
The Church of Scientology International, Inc. (CSI) is a Californian
501(c)(3) non-profit corporation.[1] Within the worldwide network of
Scientology corporations and entities, CSI is officially referred to
as the "mother church" of the Church of Scientology.
=======
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 1:28:57 PM11/8/12
to
> Why does Scientology officially call the Church of Scientology International the Mother Church?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_International
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_International
> Within the worldwide network of Scientology corporations and entities, CSI is officially referred to as the "mother church" of the Church of Scientology.
If that is what Patrick is referring to when he calls it "mother
church", question answered. Thank-you.
patrick
Nov 8, 2012, 2:24:23 PM11/8/12
to
as the mother church.
lets dont forget werner was a scientoligist for part of his adult life.
he learned from hubbard and at some point he decided to create his
own , for want of a better word, cult. people usually respond that he
he was never a scientoligist but just took courses. in scientology u dont
take courses unless u are a scientoligist. because werner borrowed from
hubbard and used his work in est, then others in landnmark, so logically
scientology would be the mother church. and dont forget werner made
the statement once that he considered est a church, or was gonna refer
to it as a church.
sometimes theres more than one reason given for a question and both
are the truth.
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 2:39:03 PM11/8/12
to
> lets dont forget werner was a scientoligist for part of his adult life.
is.
Exploring a few Dianetic's communication courses, among dozens of
other random new age type things in California, like rolfing, Zen
Bhuddism, meditation, and a long list of others in one's youth, does
not = being a 'Scientiologist". There is also no evidence that Werner
Erhard ever called himself a "Scientiologist", or put any value in the
religious aspect of Scientology.
> he learned from hubbard and at some point he decided to create his own , for want of a better word, cult.
> people usually respond that he he was never a scientoligist but just took courses.
> in scientology u dont take courses unless u are a scientoligist.
products and still label themselves devout PC people.
> because werner borrowed from hubbard and used his work in est,
> then others in landnmark, so logically scientology would be the mother church. and dont forget werner made the statement once that he considered est a church, or was gonna refer to it as a church.
> sometimes theres more than one reason given for a question and both are the truth.
Message has been deleted
patrick
Nov 8, 2012, 4:38:01 PM11/8/12
to
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:39:03 PM UTC-6, Kenny McCormick wrote:
> > lets dont forget werner was a scientoligist for part of his adult life.
>
>
>
> This is not true. If it is please provide EVIDENCE if you believe it
>
> is.
werner himself made statements that the scientology were coming after him.
> > lets dont forget werner was a scientoligist for part of his adult life.
>
>
>
> This is not true. If it is please provide EVIDENCE if you believe it
>
> is.
it is because he was a scientoligist and he left and used some of their
work. according to him that is the reason he went to the bahamas or some other
islands is because he was escaping them. u can read a book called
Outrageous Betrayal. i did think it was was silly to go to some southern
islands and lay out on the beach and stuff would have much effect from
the scientology police from getting him.
>
>
>
> Exploring a few Dianetic's communication courses, among dozens of
>
> other random new age type things in California, like rolfing, Zen
>
> Bhuddism, meditation, and a long list of others in one's youth, does
>
> not = being a 'Scientiologist".
to make people believe what he was doing was not scientology.
did u know that hubbard was a satanist. crowley was his hero. and werner
borrowed from hubbard. makes sense.
of course neither hubbard nor werner would ever admit to satanism.
There is also no evidence that Werner
>
> Erhard ever called himself a "Scientiologist", or put any value in the
>
> religious aspect of Scientology.
story about the jinn religion that apparantly he doenst have a problem with.
i believe he just might have put value in some of hubards religion.
but keep in mind there are some religions that cult leaders would not want
to admit to.
>
>
>
> > he learned from hubbard and at some point he decided to create his own , for want of a better word, cult.
>
>
>
> You are a "cult" Patrick.
>
>
>
>
>
> > people usually respond that he he was never a scientoligist but just took courses.
>
>
>
> Correct.
>
>
>
>
>
> > in scientology u dont take courses unless u are a scientoligist.
>
>
>
> Devout PC people go into Apple stores in malls and explore Apple
>
> products and still label themselves devout PC people.
with all the stuff scientology would sell u i dont believe computers
>
>
>
>
> > people usually respond that he he was never a scientoligist but just took courses.
>
>
>
> Correct.
>
>
>
>
>
> > in scientology u dont take courses unless u are a scientoligist.
>
>
>
> Devout PC people go into Apple stores in malls and explore Apple
>
> products and still label themselves devout PC people.
is one, interesting point thoug, but is it the truth.
>
>
>
>
>
> > because werner borrowed from hubbard and used his work in est,
>
>
>
> Please provide evidence of this.
i do find it interesting how , when people dont want a connection to be
made they just dont see it.
he knew hubbard. they had discussions from what i have read .
they may not have become friends but they did know each other.
hubbard was a master hypnotist.
>
>
>
>
>
> > then others in landnmark, so logically scientology would be the mother church. and dont forget werner made the statement once that he considered est a church, or was gonna refer to it as a church.
>
>
>
> Please provide evidence of this.
its in the newsgroup.
>
>
>
>
> > then others in landnmark, so logically scientology would be the mother church. and dont forget werner made the statement once that he considered est a church, or was gonna refer to it as a church.
>
>
>
> Please provide evidence of this.
>
>
>
>
>
> > sometimes theres more than one reason given for a question and both are the truth.
>
>
>
> ????????
if i made spaghetti and u tasted it and thought the meat balls was the best
>
>
>
>
> > sometimes theres more than one reason given for a question and both are the truth.
>
>
>
> ????????
part and somone else said they thought the way it was spiced was the best
part. that is an example of both statements being the truth. not one of the other :)
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 5:06:27 PM11/8/12
to
> it is because he was a scientoligist
"MYTH: Werner Erhard a Scientologist?
PLAIN TRUTH: No. In fact Werner Erhard is a life-long Episcopalian. In
the 1960’s Werner Erhard explored a myriad of disciplines and courses
in the arena of personal development and philosophy, including courses
with a company named Dianetics. Where the confusion lies is that
Dianetics was not Scientology.
When Werner took these courses L. Ron Hubbard, who wrote the book
Dianetics, had already lost the rights in a bankruptcy. So when Werner
was exposed to Dianetics it was a “franchise” type business with no
affiliation to Hubbard.
Werner investigated a multiplicity of ideas or disciplines during his
professional search for useful techniques to employ with his sales
force in his book business. Dianetics was a self help system, also
referred to as a counseling system, and contained techniques that
could be utilized to maximize the results of sales people, and Werner
employed the techniques for that purpose.
After Hubbard lost the rights to Dianetics, Hubbard published
Scientology, a belief system that was established as a religion.
While Werner has acknowledged the value he received from Dianetics
“auditing”, he did not study or subscribe to the belief system of
Scientology (the religion).*
The myth/allegation that Werner Erhard was ever a Scientologist came
from Scientology itself as part of a campaign to defame Mr. Erhard
personally and co-opt Mr. Erhard's work as their own.
As best reported in the December 1991 Los Angeles Times article, the
Church of Scientology engaged in a 20 year campaign designed to
destroy Werner Erhard's reputation. At the heart of Scientology's
campaign was Mr. Erhard's refusal to have any association with
Scientology. According to the Los Angeles Times, Scientology founder
L. Ron Hubbard, whose "hatred" of Erhard was passed along to his
followers after Hubbard's 1986 death, was jealous of the meteoric rise
of est in the public perception in the 1970s.
Neither The est Training nor any other work of Mr. Erhard's was based
on Scientology's beliefs, principles or ideas. In fact, none of the
work or programs designed or presented by Werner Erhard have been
religious in nature and none contain any belief system of any kind.
The est Training, as well as all of Werner Erhard's ideas, are a
product of Erhard’s own independent thinking and it would be
inaccurate to attribute this to any one discipline that Mr. Erhard
explored.
*By the time W. W. Bartley wrote Werner Erhard’s biography Werner
acknowledged many of the programs that he explored along the way.
Werner even referred to his work with Dianetics as Scientology given
that was the Hubbard organization name, however it was not an accurate
reference as it was not actually Scientology that Werner was exposed
to in his self-education during the 1960’s."
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 7:22:18 PM11/8/12
to
> Outrageous Betrayal can fill u in if u want to know.
"60 Minutes and the Assassination of Werner Erhard: How America's Top
Rated Television Show Was Used in an Attempt to Destroy a Man Who Was
Making A Difference" By Jane Self can fill u in if u want to know.
patrick
Nov 8, 2012, 8:31:13 PM11/8/12
to
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Kenny McCormick
Nov 8, 2012, 9:06:51 PM11/8/12
to
> Outrageous Betrayal can fill u in if u want to know.
I hope you do not believe everything you read or hear.
Caligari
Nov 9, 2012, 3:17:49 AM11/9/12
to
On Nov 8, 4:22 pm, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL8746430W/60_Minutes_and_the_Assassination_of_Werner_Erhard
Chapter II Scientology Declares War 15
"On December 29, 1991, nearly a year after Erhard's reputation was
brutally destroyed on national television, investigative reporter and
assistant city editor Robert W. Welkos revealed in a Los Angeles Time
front-page story a shocking plot by the controversial Church of
Scientology to put Erhard out of business..."
page 17
"After taking a few Scientology courses, Erhard went on to his next
discipline and started working with Mind Dynamics in 1970. By that
time he was already in the process of developing his own
communications and training course, but still checking out other
disciplines and courses. Erhard would later learn that to start
developing other programs after participating in the Church of
Scientology's programs was a serious offense in the eyes of its
founder and that by doing so, Erhard had begun to create a powerful
enemy that ultimately would stop at nothing to destroy him."
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-12-29/news/mn-2102_1_werner-erhard
======
Founder of est Targeted in Campaign by Scientologists : Religion:
Competition for customers is said to be the motive behind effort to
discredit Werner Erhard.
December 29, 1991|ROBERT W. WELKOS | TIMES STAFF WRITER
In October of 1989, a private detective was called into the Church of
Scientology's offices in Los Angeles and asked to conduct an
investigation in Northern California.
Ted Heisig, a non-Scientologist based in Orange County, said he was
led into a room and shown five file cabinets filled with documents
Scientology had been collecting for years. The subject: Werner Erhard,
founder of the worldwide self-awareness movement known as est.
"They had contacts (in the file cabinets) dating back to his childhood
days," Heisig recalled.
Many of the documents were written by former est members who had
joined Scientology and were then asked to write down anything they
knew about Erhard and his organization. Some accused him of having
links to neo-Nazis, of possessing bizarre personality disorders, of
being a scoundrel posing as a messiah, according to a sworn statement.
Heisig said it was clear from the documents that Scientology was
preparing a "media blitz" against Erhard--and that he was going to be
a key player, spreading and collecting information that could be used
to discredit the est founder.
"The reason, I think it comes down to, is competition," Heisig said.
"Since Werner started his est program, he took potential
customers . . . away from the church."
The secret campaign against Erhard would span more than a year and
become one of the Church of Scientology's top priorities. In
Sausalito, where Erhard then lived on a yacht, private detectives
spied on him and interviewed scores of disgruntled followers. They dug
deeply into records of his personal and financial affairs.
In the end, Erhard received so much notoriety--including a scathing
segment on "60 Minutes" last March--that he sold his business and now
lives in Costa Rica. Although he blames Scientology for his troubles,
it is hard to gauge what the organization actually accomplished behind
the scenes because those who know most are not saying.
As Scientology's chief lawyer, Earle C. Cooley, put it: "I'm not going
to comment in any way on the use of material that was obtained as a
result of the investigation."
One thing, however, is clear: according to Heisig, the Church of
Scientology was pleased with the outcome. And no one would have been
happier than Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, whose hatred of
Erhard was passed along to his followers after his 1986 death.
Hubbard had long held that Erhard, who had dabbled in Scientology, had
incorporated some of its teachings into est, making a fortune in the
process. Heisig said he was told by Scientology officials that the
church had lost millions of dollars because Erhard had lured away
potential customers.
Scientology's latest campaign against Erhard was one in a series of
efforts by church members to undermine his reputation and movement.
Vicki Aznaran, the top ecclesiastical official in Scientology from
1984 until she left in 1987, said she saw secret files that showed
Scientologists were instructed to enroll in est seminars and "act
crazy" and "heckle" the program leaders to cause disruption of the
seminars.
She said they were also told to get materials from est to cause loss
of business for Erhard.
Aznaran, who has sued Scientology for alleged fraud and false
imprisonment, said Hubbard once devised a plan in which his followers
were told to try to duplicate Erhard's sales success.
The plan was run by one of Hubbard's daughters, Aznaran recalled, and
involved sending "lots of people into est and copying it." But, she
said, for one reason or another, the Scientologists could never make
it work as well as Erhard had.
"Hubbard was very angry at Erhard's success," Aznaran said. "Nothing
got under his skin worse than someone taking one or two of his courses
and then running off and making some money off it and him not getting
a slice of it."
In the early 1980s, Aznaran said, she received orders to draw up a
copyright or trademark infringement suit against Erhard. To assist in
the lawsuit, she said, Scientology planted an agent in est who stole
documents. But Aznaran said a lawsuit was never filed.
In 1977, the FBI raided Scientology headquarters in Los Angeles and
Washington. Eleven top church officials, including Hubbard's wife,
subsequently received prison terms for burglarizing and bugging
government offices.
Sprinkled throughout some of the seized documents were references to
est. In one, dated April, 1976, it read: "EST: IRS hasn't busted EST,
with a little help they might." Another read: "EST Cld I have the SFO
repts re plants."
Erhard had begun his own movement in the fall of 1971. He called it
Erhard Seminars Training--est--and in the years that followed, the
organization expanded rapidly as thousands flocked to his sessions. In
fact, it was est's success that caught the attention of Scientology's
founder.
On April 18, 1976, Hubbard sat down to watch the David Susskind show
on television. The program featured 40 people who had undergone est
training and Hubbard was looking to see what similarities, if any,
there were between Scientology and Werner Erhard's seminars.
The next day Hubbard wrote a four-page analysis of the program, saying
est was essentially Scientology "up to 1954."
"Their instructors and foundation board are certainly students of
Scientology texts and possibly of Scientology," Hubbard wrote. "The
reason they can't say why it works is that they don't dare mention or
at least just don't mention Scientology. Werner Erhard may pretend to
his staff that he invented these processes. But many of his staff
would have to know that it is Scientology."
Erhard denied that "these processes" were the same, telling a
biographer: "I am not surprised that people find traces of Scientology
in est. In est we use variations on some of the Scientology charts,
and as a result the terminology overlaps a bit. In essential respects,
however, the two are different."
Although Erhard did not know it, he had created a powerful enemy.
Private detective Heisig arrived in the San Francisco Bay area in the
fall of 1989.
His orders from Scientology, he said, were to do legal checks on
Erhard to see if there were criminal cases lodged against him, contact
disaffected former est employees and members and conduct surveillance
of Erhard's boat. The boat, called the Canim, was then anchored in
Sausalito, where the est founder lived and worked.
Over the next few months, Heisig said, he interviewed several dozen
people.
Heisig told The Times that Scientology wanted him to find out any
information "relating to Werner's questionable activities" and
persuade people with such knowledge to file sworn affidavits against
Erhard.
Heisig identified his main supervisor as Roger Stodola, who he said
worked out of the Church of Scientology in San Francisco. Each
morning, before setting out on his interviews, Heisig said he and
Stodola discussed the day's "plan of attack."
Heisig said that Stodola, working behind the scenes, fed negative
information about Erhard to various journalists around the country.
One of those Heisig said he was told to make contact with was Paul
Gutfreund, a Sausalito resident and known Erhard foe, who has acted as
a clearinghouse for anti-Erhard information. Gutfreund has a suit
pending that alleges Erhard's training turned him into a manic-
depressive and drove him to financial ruin and attempted suicide.
Heisig said Scientology provided him with materials, which he then
gave to Gutfreund, who was unaware that the private detective was
really working for the church. Heisig said Gutfreund, in turn,
disseminated the documents about Erhard to journalists around the
country.
Heisig said Scientology officials instructed him to tell Gutfreund
only that he was working on behalf of some former est members--not
Scientology.
"They asked me not to stretch the truth too much," Heisig recalled. "I
went up there . . . saying I was representing a group of ex-est
members, which, in part, was true because (some) people who were
involved in est went to Scientology. So, it was kind of a half-truth."
When Gutfreund became suspicious of the private detective, his
Scientology supervisors got a church member to meet with Gutfreund at
a nearby hotel and pose as one of Heisig's "clients."
Gutfreund would not discuss his contact with Heisig. His attorney,
John Elstead of Pleasanton, commented:
"According to what Heisig says, I guess they (Scientologists) did dupe
him. I suspect if Scientologists got any information from Paul, they
did it without him being aware of it."
Heisig also interviewed Dawn Damas, who once worked as a governess to
Erhard's three youngest children.
In a recent sworn affidavit, taken by Erhard's lawyers, Heisig said
Damas "made statements regarding sexual molestation and physical abuse
by Erhard of family members, that Erhard disowned his son and that
Erhard's daughters were scared to death of him."
Damas--who acted as a go-between for some journalists seeking to
interview Erhard's children--denied she knowingly gave information
about Erhard to Scientology.
"I certainly have nothing to do with Scientology," Damas said.
"Apparently one of the people I spoke to has been hired by
Scientology. God only knows where that information went."
In addition to his own activities, Heisig said Scientology used two
other private investigators to unearth information about Erhard.
One of those, Heisig said, was a Bay Area private investigator named
Seth Derish.
Heisig said that Derish was engaged by Scientology to obtain financial
information on Erhard and his organization and then transferred that
information to representatives of Scientology.
"I saw the financial reports that Mr. Derish submitted," Heisig said.
"In the information I saw in the files that Scientology has on Werner
Erhard, I saw information that Scientology believes Erhard has a Swiss
bank account and that they have the account number."
Derish declined to discuss his cases with The Times.
Another private investigator who took part in the Erhard investigation
was Alan Clow, whose firm is in Newport Beach.
Clow told The Times that he actually worked for a Los Angeles law firm
run by Scientologists.
"I basically did a lot of investigation into Erhard's background and
the relationship with his daughters," Clow said. "I was basically told
to dig up dirt."
Clow said he always received his instructions from the attorneys.
"Everything they asked me to do was legal and aboveboard," he said.
He estimated he talked to between "20 and 30" people.
Eventually, Clow said, his clients gave him permission to talk to a
journalist at Vanity Fair magazine who was preparing an article about
Erhard. Clow also said he gave "background" information on Erhard to
people at "60 Minutes." A CBS spokesman declined to discuss the
matter.
Jesse Kornbluth, a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, said he had
been given Clow's name while reporting on Erhard for the magazine--
although his article never ran.
"Basically, I didn't know who he represented," Kornbluth said about
Clow. "Somebody gave me his name. . . . He gave me some suggestions
(but) they were not people I would not have found on my own."
Clow said that before talking to Kornbluth, he sought the permission
of his "clients" to see if they would allow him to cooperate with the
writer. "They said, 'Go ahead, give Jesse the names.' I gave him like
10 names of people I talked to."
Kornbluth said that he had started his investigation in the spring of
1990 after receiving an anonymous packet in the mail that included
"juicy" documents about Erhard.
Kornbluth had written about Erhard in New Times magazine in 1976. The
intervening years had not dampened his critical opinions about the est
founder, whose life he described as "a trail of lies, betrayals and
vast inconsistencies."
Heisig contends that Stodola, one of his Scientology case agents,
played a role in getting information to Vanity Fair.
"Stodola was in direct contact with Jesse Kornbluth of Vanity Fair,"
Heisig said in his sworn affidavit.
Kornbluth declined to say who sent him the mysterious packet, except
that he now knows who it was.
"It was no one connected with Scientology," he said.
The Times was unable to reach Stodola for comment.
In late February of this year, only days before "60 Minutes" was to
air its segment on him, Erhard terminated the lease on his yacht, sold
ownership in his company to his employees, and gave his beloved Great
Dane "Polo" to a friend. He then disappeared from Sausalito.
The year before, Werner Erhard and Associates had brought in more than
$30 million, but by early 1991 Erhard believed his name would only
tarnish the organization he had built.
His associates say he had to leave the country because his reputation
had been maliciously maligned by the news media.
Erhard's supporters believe that the media did not know they were
being used by Scientology to get at Erhard.
Some journalists who covered the story said they knew of no overt
Scientology activities.
John Hubner of the San Jose Mercury News, for example, said he had
"zero" contact with Scientologists or their detectives, although he
suspected that Scientologists might be involved when he heard about
mysterious packets being mailed to journalists. He said he received no
such packets.
Erhard himself has declined interviews, but issued a brief statement
to The Times in which he accused Scientology of mounting a conspiracy
to destroy his family and associates. He called the conspiracy an
"expression of evil."
For its part, Scientology said that all the information Heisig
gathered was obtained legally, but church lawyers refused to say
whether any of the information was fed to journalists.
Scientology's national trial counsel, Cooley, would not discuss the
specific activities of anyone connected with the church's Erhard
investigation.
Cooley, confirming that the investigation took place, said the church
did nothing illegal. But, he added, "I'm not going to get into what
lawyers did or what paralegal support did (other than to say) that
they existed and they always have existed."
Cooley also declined comment on what Scientology did with material it
obtained as a result of the investigation, "although I must say that
if any was shared with the media, there is nothing wrong with that."
======
wrote:
Chapter II Scientology Declares War 15
"On December 29, 1991, nearly a year after Erhard's reputation was
brutally destroyed on national television, investigative reporter and
assistant city editor Robert W. Welkos revealed in a Los Angeles Time
front-page story a shocking plot by the controversial Church of
Scientology to put Erhard out of business..."
page 17
"After taking a few Scientology courses, Erhard went on to his next
discipline and started working with Mind Dynamics in 1970. By that
time he was already in the process of developing his own
communications and training course, but still checking out other
disciplines and courses. Erhard would later learn that to start
developing other programs after participating in the Church of
Scientology's programs was a serious offense in the eyes of its
founder and that by doing so, Erhard had begun to create a powerful
enemy that ultimately would stop at nothing to destroy him."
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-12-29/news/mn-2102_1_werner-erhard
======
Founder of est Targeted in Campaign by Scientologists : Religion:
Competition for customers is said to be the motive behind effort to
discredit Werner Erhard.
December 29, 1991|ROBERT W. WELKOS | TIMES STAFF WRITER
In October of 1989, a private detective was called into the Church of
Scientology's offices in Los Angeles and asked to conduct an
investigation in Northern California.
Ted Heisig, a non-Scientologist based in Orange County, said he was
led into a room and shown five file cabinets filled with documents
Scientology had been collecting for years. The subject: Werner Erhard,
founder of the worldwide self-awareness movement known as est.
"They had contacts (in the file cabinets) dating back to his childhood
days," Heisig recalled.
Many of the documents were written by former est members who had
joined Scientology and were then asked to write down anything they
knew about Erhard and his organization. Some accused him of having
links to neo-Nazis, of possessing bizarre personality disorders, of
being a scoundrel posing as a messiah, according to a sworn statement.
Heisig said it was clear from the documents that Scientology was
preparing a "media blitz" against Erhard--and that he was going to be
a key player, spreading and collecting information that could be used
to discredit the est founder.
"The reason, I think it comes down to, is competition," Heisig said.
"Since Werner started his est program, he took potential
customers . . . away from the church."
The secret campaign against Erhard would span more than a year and
become one of the Church of Scientology's top priorities. In
Sausalito, where Erhard then lived on a yacht, private detectives
spied on him and interviewed scores of disgruntled followers. They dug
deeply into records of his personal and financial affairs.
In the end, Erhard received so much notoriety--including a scathing
segment on "60 Minutes" last March--that he sold his business and now
lives in Costa Rica. Although he blames Scientology for his troubles,
it is hard to gauge what the organization actually accomplished behind
the scenes because those who know most are not saying.
As Scientology's chief lawyer, Earle C. Cooley, put it: "I'm not going
to comment in any way on the use of material that was obtained as a
result of the investigation."
One thing, however, is clear: according to Heisig, the Church of
Scientology was pleased with the outcome. And no one would have been
happier than Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, whose hatred of
Erhard was passed along to his followers after his 1986 death.
Hubbard had long held that Erhard, who had dabbled in Scientology, had
incorporated some of its teachings into est, making a fortune in the
process. Heisig said he was told by Scientology officials that the
church had lost millions of dollars because Erhard had lured away
potential customers.
Scientology's latest campaign against Erhard was one in a series of
efforts by church members to undermine his reputation and movement.
Vicki Aznaran, the top ecclesiastical official in Scientology from
1984 until she left in 1987, said she saw secret files that showed
Scientologists were instructed to enroll in est seminars and "act
crazy" and "heckle" the program leaders to cause disruption of the
seminars.
She said they were also told to get materials from est to cause loss
of business for Erhard.
Aznaran, who has sued Scientology for alleged fraud and false
imprisonment, said Hubbard once devised a plan in which his followers
were told to try to duplicate Erhard's sales success.
The plan was run by one of Hubbard's daughters, Aznaran recalled, and
involved sending "lots of people into est and copying it." But, she
said, for one reason or another, the Scientologists could never make
it work as well as Erhard had.
"Hubbard was very angry at Erhard's success," Aznaran said. "Nothing
got under his skin worse than someone taking one or two of his courses
and then running off and making some money off it and him not getting
a slice of it."
In the early 1980s, Aznaran said, she received orders to draw up a
copyright or trademark infringement suit against Erhard. To assist in
the lawsuit, she said, Scientology planted an agent in est who stole
documents. But Aznaran said a lawsuit was never filed.
In 1977, the FBI raided Scientology headquarters in Los Angeles and
Washington. Eleven top church officials, including Hubbard's wife,
subsequently received prison terms for burglarizing and bugging
government offices.
Sprinkled throughout some of the seized documents were references to
est. In one, dated April, 1976, it read: "EST: IRS hasn't busted EST,
with a little help they might." Another read: "EST Cld I have the SFO
repts re plants."
Erhard had begun his own movement in the fall of 1971. He called it
Erhard Seminars Training--est--and in the years that followed, the
organization expanded rapidly as thousands flocked to his sessions. In
fact, it was est's success that caught the attention of Scientology's
founder.
On April 18, 1976, Hubbard sat down to watch the David Susskind show
on television. The program featured 40 people who had undergone est
training and Hubbard was looking to see what similarities, if any,
there were between Scientology and Werner Erhard's seminars.
The next day Hubbard wrote a four-page analysis of the program, saying
est was essentially Scientology "up to 1954."
"Their instructors and foundation board are certainly students of
Scientology texts and possibly of Scientology," Hubbard wrote. "The
reason they can't say why it works is that they don't dare mention or
at least just don't mention Scientology. Werner Erhard may pretend to
his staff that he invented these processes. But many of his staff
would have to know that it is Scientology."
Erhard denied that "these processes" were the same, telling a
biographer: "I am not surprised that people find traces of Scientology
in est. In est we use variations on some of the Scientology charts,
and as a result the terminology overlaps a bit. In essential respects,
however, the two are different."
Although Erhard did not know it, he had created a powerful enemy.
Private detective Heisig arrived in the San Francisco Bay area in the
fall of 1989.
His orders from Scientology, he said, were to do legal checks on
Erhard to see if there were criminal cases lodged against him, contact
disaffected former est employees and members and conduct surveillance
of Erhard's boat. The boat, called the Canim, was then anchored in
Sausalito, where the est founder lived and worked.
Over the next few months, Heisig said, he interviewed several dozen
people.
Heisig told The Times that Scientology wanted him to find out any
information "relating to Werner's questionable activities" and
persuade people with such knowledge to file sworn affidavits against
Erhard.
Heisig identified his main supervisor as Roger Stodola, who he said
worked out of the Church of Scientology in San Francisco. Each
morning, before setting out on his interviews, Heisig said he and
Stodola discussed the day's "plan of attack."
Heisig said that Stodola, working behind the scenes, fed negative
information about Erhard to various journalists around the country.
One of those Heisig said he was told to make contact with was Paul
Gutfreund, a Sausalito resident and known Erhard foe, who has acted as
a clearinghouse for anti-Erhard information. Gutfreund has a suit
pending that alleges Erhard's training turned him into a manic-
depressive and drove him to financial ruin and attempted suicide.
Heisig said Scientology provided him with materials, which he then
gave to Gutfreund, who was unaware that the private detective was
really working for the church. Heisig said Gutfreund, in turn,
disseminated the documents about Erhard to journalists around the
country.
Heisig said Scientology officials instructed him to tell Gutfreund
only that he was working on behalf of some former est members--not
Scientology.
"They asked me not to stretch the truth too much," Heisig recalled. "I
went up there . . . saying I was representing a group of ex-est
members, which, in part, was true because (some) people who were
involved in est went to Scientology. So, it was kind of a half-truth."
When Gutfreund became suspicious of the private detective, his
Scientology supervisors got a church member to meet with Gutfreund at
a nearby hotel and pose as one of Heisig's "clients."
Gutfreund would not discuss his contact with Heisig. His attorney,
John Elstead of Pleasanton, commented:
"According to what Heisig says, I guess they (Scientologists) did dupe
him. I suspect if Scientologists got any information from Paul, they
did it without him being aware of it."
Heisig also interviewed Dawn Damas, who once worked as a governess to
Erhard's three youngest children.
In a recent sworn affidavit, taken by Erhard's lawyers, Heisig said
Damas "made statements regarding sexual molestation and physical abuse
by Erhard of family members, that Erhard disowned his son and that
Erhard's daughters were scared to death of him."
Damas--who acted as a go-between for some journalists seeking to
interview Erhard's children--denied she knowingly gave information
about Erhard to Scientology.
"I certainly have nothing to do with Scientology," Damas said.
"Apparently one of the people I spoke to has been hired by
Scientology. God only knows where that information went."
In addition to his own activities, Heisig said Scientology used two
other private investigators to unearth information about Erhard.
One of those, Heisig said, was a Bay Area private investigator named
Seth Derish.
Heisig said that Derish was engaged by Scientology to obtain financial
information on Erhard and his organization and then transferred that
information to representatives of Scientology.
"I saw the financial reports that Mr. Derish submitted," Heisig said.
"In the information I saw in the files that Scientology has on Werner
Erhard, I saw information that Scientology believes Erhard has a Swiss
bank account and that they have the account number."
Derish declined to discuss his cases with The Times.
Another private investigator who took part in the Erhard investigation
was Alan Clow, whose firm is in Newport Beach.
Clow told The Times that he actually worked for a Los Angeles law firm
run by Scientologists.
"I basically did a lot of investigation into Erhard's background and
the relationship with his daughters," Clow said. "I was basically told
to dig up dirt."
Clow said he always received his instructions from the attorneys.
"Everything they asked me to do was legal and aboveboard," he said.
He estimated he talked to between "20 and 30" people.
Eventually, Clow said, his clients gave him permission to talk to a
journalist at Vanity Fair magazine who was preparing an article about
Erhard. Clow also said he gave "background" information on Erhard to
people at "60 Minutes." A CBS spokesman declined to discuss the
matter.
Jesse Kornbluth, a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, said he had
been given Clow's name while reporting on Erhard for the magazine--
although his article never ran.
"Basically, I didn't know who he represented," Kornbluth said about
Clow. "Somebody gave me his name. . . . He gave me some suggestions
(but) they were not people I would not have found on my own."
Clow said that before talking to Kornbluth, he sought the permission
of his "clients" to see if they would allow him to cooperate with the
writer. "They said, 'Go ahead, give Jesse the names.' I gave him like
10 names of people I talked to."
Kornbluth said that he had started his investigation in the spring of
1990 after receiving an anonymous packet in the mail that included
"juicy" documents about Erhard.
Kornbluth had written about Erhard in New Times magazine in 1976. The
intervening years had not dampened his critical opinions about the est
founder, whose life he described as "a trail of lies, betrayals and
vast inconsistencies."
Heisig contends that Stodola, one of his Scientology case agents,
played a role in getting information to Vanity Fair.
"Stodola was in direct contact with Jesse Kornbluth of Vanity Fair,"
Heisig said in his sworn affidavit.
Kornbluth declined to say who sent him the mysterious packet, except
that he now knows who it was.
"It was no one connected with Scientology," he said.
The Times was unable to reach Stodola for comment.
In late February of this year, only days before "60 Minutes" was to
air its segment on him, Erhard terminated the lease on his yacht, sold
ownership in his company to his employees, and gave his beloved Great
Dane "Polo" to a friend. He then disappeared from Sausalito.
The year before, Werner Erhard and Associates had brought in more than
$30 million, but by early 1991 Erhard believed his name would only
tarnish the organization he had built.
His associates say he had to leave the country because his reputation
had been maliciously maligned by the news media.
Erhard's supporters believe that the media did not know they were
being used by Scientology to get at Erhard.
Some journalists who covered the story said they knew of no overt
Scientology activities.
John Hubner of the San Jose Mercury News, for example, said he had
"zero" contact with Scientologists or their detectives, although he
suspected that Scientologists might be involved when he heard about
mysterious packets being mailed to journalists. He said he received no
such packets.
Erhard himself has declined interviews, but issued a brief statement
to The Times in which he accused Scientology of mounting a conspiracy
to destroy his family and associates. He called the conspiracy an
"expression of evil."
For its part, Scientology said that all the information Heisig
gathered was obtained legally, but church lawyers refused to say
whether any of the information was fed to journalists.
Scientology's national trial counsel, Cooley, would not discuss the
specific activities of anyone connected with the church's Erhard
investigation.
Cooley, confirming that the investigation took place, said the church
did nothing illegal. But, he added, "I'm not going to get into what
lawyers did or what paralegal support did (other than to say) that
they existed and they always have existed."
Cooley also declined comment on what Scientology did with material it
obtained as a result of the investigation, "although I must say that
if any was shared with the media, there is nothing wrong with that."
======
patrick
Nov 9, 2012, 5:00:43 PM11/9/12
to
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 9:36:35 AM UTC-6, patrick wrote:
> http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15015979-church-of-scientology-sparks-little-controversy-in-religiously-fraught-israel?lite
>
>
>
> it appears that any criticism is baseless they say.
> http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15015979-church-of-scientology-sparks-little-controversy-in-religiously-fraught-israel?lite
>
>
>
> it appears that any criticism is baseless they say.
"After taking a few Scientology courses, Erhard went on to his next
discipline and started working with Mind Dynamics in 1970.
that proved my point. u dont just go out and take scientology courses,
discipline and started working with Mind Dynamics in 1970.
i doubt u could just take dianetics courses either but if u do and u have
no desire to become a scientologist , then they come after u to shut u up
just like they do today.
patrick
Nov 10, 2012, 9:26:45 AM11/10/12
to
Serena Nordstrup
Nov 18, 2012, 1:34:07 AM11/18/12
to
On Nov 9, 11:06 am, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
... which just goes to show that sometimes, some people may find it
convenient to regard Scientology as a religion ...
wrote:
convenient to regard Scientology as a religion ...
Serena Nordstrup
Nov 18, 2012, 1:41:09 AM11/18/12
to
On Nov 9, 1:22 pm, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Which page(s) of Jane Self's work do you regard as relevant to the
topic of Scientology's influence on the ideas of Jack Rosenberg,
Kenny ?
wrote:
topic of Scientology's influence on the ideas of Jack Rosenberg,
Kenny ?
Kenny McCormick
Nov 18, 2012, 10:00:41 AM11/18/12
to
> ... which just goes to show that sometimes, some people may find it
> convenient to regard Scientology as a religion ...
convenient to regard this that way and other times this the other
way.
Serena Nordstrup
Nov 19, 2012, 4:10:49 AM11/19/12
to
On 19 Nov, 04:00, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
... were it not for evidence... Ask a German bureaucrat, for instance,
whether to class Scientology as a religion with the rights and
privileges of a religion. Then ask a Russian bureaucrat. Compare and
contrast. In extremis, analyze.
wrote:
whether to class Scientology as a religion with the rights and
privileges of a religion. Then ask a Russian bureaucrat. Compare and
contrast. In extremis, analyze.
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