Greed Killz
Alrick
Bill Harris from Centerpointe. Now he is down on his bare knees
praying he doesn't get sued for criminal negligence after two people
died at a "sweatbox" seminar he held in Arizona. More on Centerpointe
negligence later.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/09/sweat.box.deaths/index.html
CNN) -- The two people who died and the 19 others who fell ill at a
central Arizona resort after spending time in a sauna-like "sweatbox"
were attending a program by self-help expert James Arthur Ray,
authorities said Saturday.
Two people died and were 19 injured after spending up to two hours
inside this "sweatbox" at an Arizona resort.
The dead were identified as James Shore of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and
Kirby Brown of Westtown, New York, Sheriff Lloyd Waugh told reporters.
They were among the 50 or so visitors at the Angel Valley Resort near
Sedona attending Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" program.
Nineteen others were treated for injuries sustained in the sweatbox, a
dome-like structure covered with tarps and blankets. Hot rocks and
water are used to create steam in the enclosed environment.
Waugh said investigators are looking into evidence that "may turn this
into a criminal prosecution."
Investigators are looking into similar events held previously in other
locations by Ray, who refused to speak with officers at the scene,
Waugh said. A follow-up interview is expected to happen.
Ray's publicist, Howard Bragman, did not immediately return calls from
CNN on Saturday.
Ray posted a noted late Friday on his Twitter page, saying: "I'm
shocked & saddened by the tragedy occurring in Sedona. My deep
heartfelt condolences to family & friends of those who lost their
lives."
On Saturday he posted another message, saying he's "spending the
weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult
time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."
The self-help guru is widely known for his programs that claim to
teach individuals to create wealth through all aspects of their lives
-- financially, mentally, physically and spiritually.
Ray, whose company is based in Carlsbad, California, has appeared on a
variety of national programs, including CNN's "Larry King Live." In
that appearance, Ray was about to address 3,000 people in Phoenix,
Arizona.
Asked what he thinks about critics of his teachings, Ray told King:
"Well, you know, it's interesting, Larry, because any time a new idea
comes to the fore, it goes through three phases. It's first ridiculed.
Then it's violently opposed. And then it's finally accepted as self-
evident, normally after the opposition dies."
Angel Valley Resort advertises itself as "a place to relax and
heal ... where powerful earth energies are present and active." It was
founded in April 2002 by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, both of whom are
teachers and counselors there.
The resort is on 70 secluded valley acres 20 minutes from Sedona,
surrounded by thousands of acres of national forest, according to the
Web site. It has Internal Revenue Service nonprofit status as a
religious organization, its Web site says.
"There are twenty marked vortexes and angel sites to experience
connection with Earth and spirit, deep relaxation, and balancing," an
online brochure says. "Angel Valley offers two labyrinths and an Angel
Wheel for going inward, finding answers and getting insights."
No information about the sweat lodge could be found on the Web site
Saturday morning, and numerous internal links were not functioning.
The use of sweat lodges for spiritual and physical cleansing is a part
of several Native American tribes' cultures.
A traditional Native American sweat lodge is a small dome-like
structure made up of willow branches carefully tied together and
covered in canvas. Rocks are heated in a nearby fire pit and placed
inside the lodge, and water is poured over them to create steam.
"We are curious to find out what happened there," Richard Moreno, a
member of Pira Manso Pueblo tribe, told KPHO-TV. "I've been
participating in the sweat lodge since the age of 3 and I've never
recalled being sick from being in the sweat lodge."
Moreno told the station he has never been to a lodge that held more
than 20 people.
Eldon
I saw this. I guess those poor souls would have been better off
"investing" only $647 in the Harmonic Wealth home study course.. Or
maybe just do the weekend event without the sweat lodge.
http://harmonicwealth.com/index.php/main/live/
And then there's always Marshall Sylver.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
suspected but then it came out that these people had been fasting for
three days before the sweat and had actually gone without water for an
extended period of time before going into the sweat lodge.
That's just nuts.
s_nordstrup
> Note: "The Secret"-author James Ray has been repeatedly endorsed by
> Bill Harris from Centerpointe. Now he is down on his bare knees
> praying he doesn't get sued for criminal negligence after two people
> died at a "sweatbox" seminar he held in Arizona. More on Centerpointe
> negligence later.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/09/sweat.box.deaths/index.html
<snip>
> The self-help guru is widely known for his programs that claim to
> teach individuals to create wealth through all aspects of their lives
> -- financially, mentally, physically and spiritually.
>
> Ray, whose company is based in Carlsbad, California, has appeared on a
> variety of national programs, including CNN's "Larry King Live." In
> that appearance, Ray was about to address 3,000 people in Phoenix,
> Arizona.
>
> Asked what he thinks about critics of his teachings, Ray told King:
>
> "Well, you know, it's interesting, Larry, because any time a new idea
> comes to the fore, it goes through three phases. It's first ridiculed.
> Then it's violently opposed. And then it's finally accepted as self-
> evident, normally after the opposition dies."
I wonder what "phase" the idea of a hollow Earth has reached...
Eldon
Quite nuts. Fasting I could see, but fasts always involve drinking a
lot of water.
computeruser
Dehydration while Fasting Killz
Greed didn't cause this. A misguided quest through a charlatan, for
abundance, without the due dilegence required to earn it, did. The
desire to cheat through a "spirtual" short-cut often ends in
disappointment, or in this case much worse.
tex
The "secret" to his success?
Charge people $9,000 for a retreat and then don't feed them.
That's a good profit margin.
Sitting in a sweat lodge for hours?
That's a dumb-ass thing to do.
what a tragedy.
http://www.healingdaily.com/exercise/sauna.htm
Sauna safety
Saunas are safe for most people so long as the sauna user follows a
few simple rules:
Stay inside the sauna for no more than 30 minutes at a time.
Lie down or sit for at least 10 minutes after using the sauna. Make
sure you drink plenty of mineralized water before and after the sauna.
Add minerals or juice to your water if it is mineral-free. It is also
a good idea to add extra sea salt to your diet to replace minerals
lost through sweating in the sauna.
Use the sauna under supervision if you have a chronic condition. If
you are debilitated or very sensitive to heat, begin with a shorter
period of time in the sauna. The presence of an attendant or friend in
the sauna can also be very helpful.
Alrick
> On Oct 13, 5:28 am, computeruser <cyran...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 4:49 am, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 13, 4:18 am, "qt2th...@yahoo.com" <qt2th...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I heard from some insiders that at first some poisonous substance was
> > > > suspected but then it came out that these people had been fasting for
> > > > three days before the sweat and had actually gone without water for an
> > > > extended period of time before going into the sweat lodge.
>
> > > > That's just nuts.
My new dentist who specializes in removing amalgam fillings and
mercury detox had an opinion on this. He talks on and on during
treatment and he remarked that if you're overweight toxins will be
stored in your fat where they can't do much harm. He specifically
mentioned Americans. The problems is when such people want to lose
weight and start burning their fatty tissues: then all the toxins
stored over the years are released all at once.
This might have been the case here.
Alrick
PRESCOTT, Ariz. (CBS/AP) Police have now turned their attention to
television self-help guru James Arthur Ray in their investigation of
an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony that left two dead and 19
hospitalized.
Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday that his detectives
were focusing on the self-help expert and his staff as they try to
determine if criminal negligence played a role in the tragic deaths at
the Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona, Ariz., on Oct. 9.
The town is a desert vacation spot two hours north of Phoenix that is
popular with those seeking meditation and spiritual health.
Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left
the state.
"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible
to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths
of these individuals," Waugh said. He said it could be three to four
weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.
Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and
saddened" by the tragedy.
"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost
their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and
meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to
join me in doing the same."
Ray claims to help people achieve both spiritual and financial wealth.
"The real key to creating the life of your dreams is achieving true
Harmonic Wealth®," he says on his Web site, trademark included.
The self-styled success guru says people are ready for his wisdom if
"You simply (and deeply) want to make more money and become more
successful" and "want to double, triple, even multiply by ten the size
of your business."
It's not clear what type of financial wizardry was being taught inside
the 415-square-foot homemade sweat lodge when a 38-year-old female
surfer and a 40-year-old father of three dropped dead.
Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.
Ray's publicist, Howard Bragman, expressed condolences in a statement
Friday but declined to speak about the deaths. Bragman didn't return a
call for additional comment Saturday.
The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra
Hamilton, who rented it to Ray for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior"
retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life."
On Saturday, Amayra Hamilton said Ray has held the event at the resort
for seven years, and there never have been any problems.
Hamilton said the resort remains closed to the public. The sweat lodge
has been dismantled and a ceremony was conducted for those affected by
Thursday's incident.
"The whole situation is very traumatizing for everybody," she said.
The people at Ray's retreat, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s,
paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend.
Ray and his staff constructed the temporary sweat lodge with a wood
frame and covered it with layers of tarps and blankets, Waugh said.
The sweat lodge — a structure commonly used by American Indian tribes
to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events
— was 53 inches high at the center and about 30 inches high around the
outer edges.
Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot space
during a two-hour period that included various spiritual exercises led
by Ray, Waugh said. Every 15 minutes, a flap was raised to allow more
volcanic rocks the size of cantaloupes to be brought inside.
Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to
remain in the sweat lodge for the entire time.
Joseph Bruchac, author of "The Native American Sweat Lodge: History
and Legends," called the number of participants in the lodge
"appalling."
"If you put people in a restrictive, airtight structure, you are going
to use up all oxygen," he said by phone Saturday from his home in
Saratoga Springs, N.Y. "And if you're doing a sweat, you're going to
use it up that much faster."
American Indian sweat lodges typically hold about 12 people and are
covered with blankets made of natural materials, such as cotton or
wool, and the air flow isn't restricted, he said.
"I don't see how the person running that lodge could have been aware
of the health and well-being of that many people," he said.
The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and
spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet
Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge
lightly dressed at 3 p.m.
Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh
identified as 38-year old New Yorker Kirby Brown and 40-year-old James
Shore of Milwaukee, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.
According to a family spokesperson, Brown was an avid surfer and hiker
who was "in top shape," before the mysterious sweat lodge death.
A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when
emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced
dead when they arrived at a hospital.
Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities were checking whether
there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and
the emergency call.
Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results
weren't disclosed pending additional tests. Authorities have ruled out
carbon monoxide poising as the cause.
Matt Collins, who knew Shore since seventh grade, described his friend
as a wonderful husband and father whose life revolved around his three
kids. "Everybody who got to know him absolutely loved him," Collins
told The Associated Press.
Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Geneseo, had
two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on
"making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art
but with her heart," family spokesman Tom McFeeley said. Although the
family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by
which others should live.
"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.
McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't
certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in
Brooklyn and Westtown and spent time in Mexico, saw the outing as a
chance to continue on a positive path in life.
Eldon
I doubt it. According to news reports, there were 50-60 people crammed
in there for a couple of hours. That isn't going to make anybody lose
weight to speak of. In fact, all a sauna normally does is make you
sweat with a consequent need to replenish the water (and salt and
other minerals).
If there wasn't enough ventilation, it could have been oxygen
deprivation.
Alrick
Don't forget they had been fasting for three days on end beforehand.
And a sweat lodge is different from a sauna, I think temperatures may
be higher.
Eldon
They ate breakfast that morning before doing the sweat lodge thing. A
three day fast is pretty short. Ten days is considered a normal length
of time. I don't know about the temperature, but both use dry heat
with water tossed onto the hot rocks, so I'd guess there isn't too
much difference. I know I can't stay in a normally hot sauna for two
hours at a stretch without cooling off periodically.
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
The report said they were fasting for 36 hours, not 3 days.
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
The opposite is true, Alrick.
Sweat lodge temperatures are much lower, allowing people to stay in
them for much longer periods of time, compared to saunas.
But the same caution needs to be taken regarding warning signs of heat
stroke.
Perhaps this sweat lodge was approaching sauna temps. (80 C or 176 F)
Typical sweat lodges usually don't go higher than 110 F
qt2t...@yahoo.com
I have a fair amount of experience attending sweats and co-conducting
sweats. How hot it gets depends on how aggressively the leader waters
the rocks and how hot they are in the first place. This of course can
vary widely.
Sweats are often done in rounds with each successive round being more
intense than the one before.
This is how I've done them anyway and individuals are charged with
knowing their own limits. Its ok if people want to leave in the middle
of a round if they can't take the intensity. It's important to open
and shut the exit flap quickly so as not to lose heat if someone must
bail early.
We've always had lots of water inside for drinking and pouring over
ourselves to cool down if necessary.
I've never heard of anyone staying in a sweat lodge for 2 hours
straight. We don't know if the news reports are accurate on that or
not but its not unusual for sweats to go on that long with breaks to
air out the lodge and bring in a new supply of rocks.
tex
Sounds like a bad idea to me.
I was invited to one once.
You want me to do what??? ;-)
Sit around in my underwear sweating my ass off in a a smokey tent?
No thanks.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
To each his own but don't knock it till you've tried it as the old
saying goes.
Sweat lodges have deep spiritual roots steeped in tradition and if
approached with the proper mindset can be very powerfully purifying
and enlightening.
When the steam gets intense enough the only way you can stay in is to
get out of your head and be in your body totally. If your intention
has been set properly it will carry you through and you will emerge
back into the cool air feeling reborn and directly knowing new levels
of wisdom within yourself. It feels great.
If there's any smoke in the lodge its been done wrong. There's no fire
in there. The rocks are heated in a fire outside the lodge and brought
in on shovels when they are glowing red hot.
Wayne
>>
>>>I don't think there is such a thing as a "typical" sweat lodge, tex.
>>
>>>I have a fair amount of experience attending sweats and co-conducting
>>>sweats. How hot it gets depends on how aggressively the leader waters
>>>the rocks and how hot they are in the first place. This of course can
>>>vary widely.
Well, I've never done one and I'm reluctant to speculate with so little
information because when the actual cause of death is released we may
look like dumb fucks, but...............
Did I read that this thing was about 20 feet across, 4 feet high in the
middle and 2 or 3 feet at the perimeter, and that 63 people were stuffed
inside the sealed multilayered containment? Five sq ft of deck area per
person? Less than 20 cubic feet of volume? That's less volume than my
refrigerator and I surer than hell wouldn't hop in there and expect to
be alive in the morning. It's unlawful to store or dispose of an empty
refrigerator without removing the doors: too many people, especially
kids, crawled inside for a quick nap and asphyxiated.
What I don't get is how it is that these people who must have been
gasping and panting didn't leave the containment. Asphyxiation is NOT
painless like carbon monoxide poisoning: it's agonizing.
Regardless of the actual cause of death, that WHY may well determine if
someone does serious prison time behind this.
Eldon
> qt2th...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>>I don't think there is such a thing as a "typical" sweat lodge, tex.
>
> >>>I have a fair amount of experience attending sweats and co-conducting
> >>>sweats. How hot it gets depends on how aggressively the leader waters
> >>>the rocks and how hot they are in the first place. This of course can
> >>>vary widely.
>
> Well, I've never done one and I'm reluctant to speculate with so little
> information because when the actual cause of death is released we may
> look like dumb fucks, but...............
>
> Did I read that this thing was about 20 feet across, 4 feet high in the
> middle and 2 or 3 feet at the perimeter, and that 63 people were stuffed
> inside the sealed multilayered containment? Five sq ft of deck area per
> person? Less than 20 cubic feet of volume? That's less volume than my
> refrigerator and I surer than hell wouldn't hop in there and expect to
> be alive in the morning. It's unlawful to store or dispose of an empty
> refrigerator without removing the doors: too many people, especially
> kids, crawled inside for a quick nap and asphyxiated.
Looking at the figures, I get around 26 cubic feet of volume, which is
still pretty confined. At any rate, he "spoke out" at a more recent
seminar attended by 200 people. Note that 19 other people had problems
other than the two who died. That adds up to one-third of the total
occupants of the sweat lodge.
Retreat leader speaks out over sweat lodge deaths
By DAISY NGUYEN (AP) – 3 hours ago
LOS ANGELES — The man in charge of a spiritual retreat in Arizona that
left two people dead after they were overcome in a sweat lodge said
Tuesday night he is facing a difficult time and "being tested" by the
tragedy.
The comments from self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray came
during a seminar at a Marina del Rey hotel. Ray broke down in tears as
he addressed the deaths.
"This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," he told the crowd
of about 200. "I don't know how to deal with it really."
When an audience member asked Ray to describe what happened, he
declined to elaborate, saying only that he has hired his own
investigative team and is cooperating with authorities.
"We're looking for answers," he said. "I'm as frustrated and confused
as other people are."
Ray led a group of more than 50 people last week through a five-day
program intended to push people beyond their limits. The course
included a Thursday sweat lodge ceremony, which ended tragically in
the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40,
of Milwaukee.
Nineteen other people were hurt, and one remains in critical
condition.
Earlier Tuesday, Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman,
called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not
mistreated and not put in a reckless situation.
"He was someone people believed in, people paid good money to get his
advice," McFeeley said. "It's a person we all wanted to believe had
our best interest in mind. Quite simply, that didn't happen."
tex
> On Oct 14, 9:15 am, Wayne <waynemcma...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > qt2th...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > >>>I don't think there is such a thing as a "typical" sweat lodge, tex.
>
> > >>>I have a fair amount of experience attending sweats and co-conducting
> > >>>sweats. How hot it gets depends on how aggressively the leader waters
> > >>>the rocks and how hot they are in the first place. This of course can
> > >>>vary widely.
>
> > Well, I've never done one and I'm reluctant to speculate with so little
> > information because when the actual cause of death is released we may
> > look like dumb fucks, but...............
>
> > Did I read that this thing was about 20 feet across, 4 feet high in the
> > middle and 2 or 3 feet at the perimeter, and that 63 people were stuffed
> > inside the sealed multilayered containment? Five sq ft of deck area per
> > person? Less than 20 cubic feet of volume? That's less volume than my
> > refrigerator and I surer than hell wouldn't hop in there and expect to
> > be alive in the morning. It's unlawful to store or dispose of an empty
> > refrigerator without removing the doors: too many people, especially
> > kids, crawled inside for a quick nap and asphyxiated.
>
> Looking at the figures, I get around 26 cubic feet of volume, which is still pretty confined.
26 cubic feet?
You need to recheck your math.
a 3x3x3 box is 27 cubic feet.
It is more 10,000 cubic feet based on the above dimensions.
And these structures aren't air tight.
It sounds like heat and gross negligence by the leaders of this
"exercise" was the culprit.
$9,000 doesn't buy what it used to .
Were they all refunded their money?
> > someone does serious prison time behind this.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
tex
Sorry.
I meant to say 1,000 cubic feet.
approx. a 10x12 room with an 8 foot ceiling.
Sauna size.
Wayne
>
> 26 cubic feet?
> You need to recheck your math.
Well, said Gilda, it's always somethin'. There's Wayne math, and lawyer
math, Sedona math, and tex math, etc. You'll hear other maths before
this is over.
Tex, we come up with similar figures now but you did have me scratching
my head for a moment. Yeah: normal sauna size (although cut into bigger
floor space and lower ceiling) but 63 people in it.
20 feet diameter, average height of 3.5 feet, is pi times the radius
squared, or 10' times 10' times 3.14 times 3.5'. And then divide by 63
and you'll get the average volume of air per participant they'd be
competing for.
I get ~17.4 cu ft, each. Tex, if that's not right, point out my error.
Also, I weigh more or less the same as water which weighs 60-something
pounds per cubic foot, so I'm around 3 cu feet, which gets subtracted
from my 17 cu ft allotment leaving about 14 cu ft, something smaller
than a public telephone booth, smaller than 2 steel drums end-to-end.
And, if 2 ft by 1.5 ft by 7 ft (21 cu ft) is average, less than the
volume of a coffin.
The oxygen in such a volume wouldn't last 3 hours in normal
temperatures, and less in hot conditions.
Either those people were packed in like the waiting line for the Haunted
House on Halloween, or the journalist who reported the size of the sweat
lodge used journalist math: a possibility.
If our starting facts are right, someone goes to jail on this one:
negligent homocide. If you and I can tee it up that 63 people is one
very overloaded sauna (at almost 10 thousand bucks a pop), then a
prosecutor and a jury will knock it out of the park.
Alrick
is how it is advertised on James Ray's website:
Check it out:
* You'll accelerate the releasing of your limitations and push
yourself past your self-imposed and conditioned borders (no more
coloring inside the lines)...
* You'll carve out your own destiny and quickly develop the
strength and determination to live it...
* You'll learn (and apply) the awesome power of "integrity of
action"...
* You will (perhaps for the first time in your life), have a gut
level understanding of "The Four Enemies of Power." You'll learn to
recognize them at a glance, and instantly defeat them when they
arise...
* You'll define and enforce your own boundaries—without someone
else telling you what they should be...
* You'll experience a new technologically-enhanced form of
meditation that creates new neurological pathways, allowing you to
experience powerful whole-brain thinking (this one's gonna knock your
socks off)...
* You'll experience, at the spiritual level, the ancient
methodologies of Samurai Warriors; and gain a true understanding of
the authority and strength that come from a life of honor...
(.....)
The investment is ONLY $9695 per person.
The sixth entry sounds like they were using Holosync technology, or
something rather similar. Just out of curiosity I will send an email
to Centerpointe to see what they will say about it.
Wayne
>
> The sixth entry sounds like they were using Holosync technology, or
> something rather similar. Just out of curiosity I will send an email
> to Centerpointe to see what they will say about it.
Why?
Alrick
Why will I send an email? Out of curiosity like I said but also out of
concern for my own well-being.
"By their friends ye shall know them"
Eldon
I wasn't clear. I meant 26 cubic feet per person. Multiplied by 63
people, that's 1638 cubic feet. Say around 20x20 feet by 4 feet high.
Eldon
Yes, I thought the same thing (and there's a variation or two out
there). I'm doubt they're using e-meters, though there's one "instant
transmission" guru who does in his sessions.
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
Got it now.
Wayne's numbers of 17 may be more accurate, as the dome was circle.
A tent isn't air tight though. It is more airy than a house, for
example.
63 people in a 20 foot room would be "cozy," though.
They certainly delivered their promise to push people beyond thier
limits.
Another fraud exposed.
Wayne
Your well-being? Stay the hell out of containers where you'll wither
and die: this message board (a.c.a.) comes to mind.
You're worried about toxins in your fat tissues? Worry more about
hatred stuck in your karmic suction pattern.
>
> "By their friends ye shall know them"
Exactly. Include the dead ones.
This discussion of that poor schnook in Sedona is a red herring. He'll
have his ass sued into oblivion. Period.
I doubt anyone will spend jail time, although charges might be filed,
and later reduced, and fines assessed, maybe some months in jail AT
WORST. Unless, of course, people were trying to get out and were
encouraged IN ANY WAY to stay in.
Gees, whatever happened to the spirit of Woodstock or similar events?
People died, others got born. No permits, services were fucked up, but
no charges filed, minor lawsuits, no big deal. "Spirit of a generation".
The spirit today is more of how to gnaw at a person if you find them at
a disadvantage. You'd be a fine member of Eldon's Brownshirts.
Chill out, motherfarker. In fact, I have a chill-out box set aside for
you, even got the executive lighting package where the light goes out
when you shut the door!
See? Cured you already. R--E--L--A--X Your well-being is intact.
Tex
That is until he starts to see those reptilians coming after him,
again.
Wayne, any reptilian blood in you??? ;-)
Wayne
>
>
> That is until he starts to see those reptilians coming after him,
> again.
> Wayne, any reptilian blood in you??? ;-)
That, as I tell me saintly grandkids, reminds me of a story.....
A guy walks into a bar with a little ugly short-legged yellow dog on a
heavy chain leash. He walks past this big mean-ass German shepherd dog
about 6 times his size, and the shepherd starts to bark at him and lunge
at him. The owner of the short little yellow dog looks at the big dog's
owner and says, "Hold that damned dog if you don't want to see him get
his ass whupped and maybe yours too."
Oh boy, you already know where this going, doncha?
So the big dog's owner laughs and sez, "You and what army?" And, of
course, one thing leads to another in their natural course and he lets
the big dog loose, and the other guy slips the little yellow dog, and
it's on.
A few seconds later, with only a few yelps and nary a bark, it's all
over and the big dog is in pieces and the short-legged yellow dog is
gnawing on what's left over.
"Holy Shit," he sez, eyes bugging out, "where'd you get a dog like that?"
The other guy takes another sip of his beer and says, "Dog? Before I
cut two feet off his tail, a foot off his nose, and painted him yellow,
he was an alligator."
And sets his beer precisely back on the coaster.
Eldon
It doesn't take a specific bloodline to be reptilian.
http://www.crystalinks.com/reptilianbrain.html
Alrick
Yes, it is very important to point out that "reptilian" is not in any
way, shape or form "coded language" for Jews. This theory has been
deliberately spread in the nineties and it is featured in the BBC
documentary "Them" by Jon Ronson.
You'll probably remember the scene with the anti-rascist group in
Canada who threw a pie at David Icke (and missed) because they thought
he was an anti-semite.
Despite David's repeated denials, this theory or accusation is still
doing the rounds on the internet. The main person responsible for the
spreading of this vicious rumour is Richard Warman, a lawyer who has
worked for the ADL.
I hope this will help to finally convince "tex" because it seems to me
that either he feels I am targeting alt.fan.landmark with this
information because I know the founder of EST is Jewish (which I only
found out recently) or he feels that I am just a rabid anti-semite who
is trying to spread hatred on usenet in a sort of oblique way.
About the first point, like I said I don't know much about Landmark
Education (which tex supports, or is supported by if we believe Rick
Ross) and I thought until recently Werner Erhard was the guy's real
name.
About the second point, I have absolutely no reason to hate or dislike
Jewish people. During WWII my grandparents have had a number of Jewish
people living hidden in their own house to prevent them from being
arrested. You may know the Anne Frank book. Her family basically hid
in their own business premises. There were also lots of Jews who went
into hiding with non-Jewish families and in this way stayed out of the
concentration camps. These people obviously could not work but had to
be fed. Yet this was done completely free of charge (although my
grandparents did later get some kind of civilian war insignia for it
which my grandfather often wore on his lapel). There is even some
Jewish blood in my family through my grandmother. So to suggest I am
an anti-semite is not only absurd but also the worst kind of insult.
I do hope this finally and fully clears up that misunderstanding.
Eldon
I don't recall where you were accused of antisemitism. Also, there is
a distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Some Jews are
anti-Zionists.
tex
Yes?
Who was pointing this out?
> This theory has been deliberately spread in the nineties and it is featured in the BBC
> documentary "Them" by Jon Ronson.
Who cares?
> You'll probably remember the scene with the anti-rascist group in Canada who threw a pie at David Icke (and missed) because they >thought he was an anti-semite.
Again, who cares?
> Despite David's repeated denials, this theory or accusation is still
> doing the rounds on the internet. The main person responsible for the
> spreading of this vicious rumour is Richard Warman, a lawyer who has
> worked for the ADL.
I beleive Icke when he says he is not anti-semitic.
>
> I hope this will help to finally convince "tex" because it seems to me
> that either he feels I am targeting alt.fan.landmark with this
> information because I know the founder of EST is Jewish (which I only
> found out recently) or he feels that I am just a rabid anti-semite who
> is trying to spread hatred on usenet in a sort of oblique way.
Alrick, are you always this delusional?
The founder of est was raised in the Episcopal Church. His father was
of Jewish heritage.
The fact that you take Alex jones and David Icke seriously is amusing
to me. No rational person would take either person seriously. I never
liked Werner Erhard personally. I didn't even know who he was until
after I took the est Training. I enjoyed and found the est Training
valuable despite its origins and the foibles and ethnic background of
its founder.
>
> About the first point, like I said I don't know much about Landmark
> Education (which tex supports, or is supported by if we believe Rick
> Ross) and I thought until recently Werner Erhard was the guy's real name.
I don't support nor do I recommend Landmark Education to anyone.
But if you believe Alex Jones and David Icke, it doesn't surprise me
that you would also listen to what Rick Ross has to say.
> About the second point, I have absolutely no reason to hate or dislike Jewish people.
And I be some of your best friends are also from Mulluca. ;-)
> During WWII my grandparents have had a number of Jewish
> people living hidden in their own house to prevent them from being
> arrested. You may know the Anne Frank book. Her family basically hid
> in their own business premises. There were also lots of Jews who went
> into hiding with non-Jewish families and in this way stayed out of the
> concentration camps. These people obviously could not work but had to
> be fed. Yet this was done completely free of charge (although my
> grandparents did later get some kind of civilian war insignia for it
> which my grandfather often wore on his lapel). There is even some
> Jewish blood in my family through my grandmother. So to suggest I am
> an anti-semite is not only absurd but also the worst kind of insult.
Alrick, are you getting psychiatric help for these delusions?
Where, anywhere, have you been accused of antisemitism?
My derision towards Icke is based on his belief that if you squint
your eyes while looking at Hillary Clinton you can see her reptilian
form.
Oh yeah, and she's a blood sucking lizard.
Jones calls Icke an "opportunistic con man, or insane etc"
Also refers to him as a "turd in the punch bowl" because these crazy
notions discredit the conspiracy theories they both agree with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx0jQAh0aaw
And then he has Icke on his radio show later, kissing his ass.
Sounds like they are both crazy to me.
Sounds like you are right where you belong. ;-)
>
> I do hope this finally and fully clears up that misunderstanding.- Hide quoted text -
Love to stay and chat, but I've got to go drink some blood now.
Alrick
>
> And then he has Icke on his radio show later, kissing his ass.
> Sounds like they are both crazy to me.
> Sounds like you are right where you belong. ;-)
>
>
>
> > I do hope this finally and fully clears up that misunderstanding.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Love to stay and chat, but I've got to go drink some blood now.
>
Just make sure to fill your quota of glowing recommendations of
Landmark this week ;-]
...and don't forget to punch the clock on your way out...
Tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've posted nearly 10,000 messages over the years.
See if you can find a "glowing recommendation of Landmark" among
them. ;-)
I suppose if you squint your eyes you'll find one.
Watch out for the blood-sucking lizards, though. ;-)