Conceptualization
The Space Boss
then we generally don't make a distinction between the experience
itself and the concept (ie; when we go to a restaurant, we "eat the
menu" not being able to distinguish between the menu and the meal
itself). So here's the question:
If you go to Disneyland and experience it once, and then go back again
the next year, the second time are you trying to experience the
"concept" of being at disneyland? I hope you understand what I'm
asking.
Thanks.
Eldonbraun
a long time: Abstractions (symbols of language) are not the same as
direct experience; they are a way to package and communicate experience
as concepts. Learning to use them is not devolution. It's called
maturing and becoming educated. You don't have to slice a pie every
time you want to use fractions.
However, it may be useful to practice getting back into a
non-conceptual mode of direct experience. Try the simple "experiments"
devised by Douglas Harding at this website:
http://www.headless.org/ (link on the main page after you hit the
language button)
Since you mention "eating the menu," here is one for a very expensive
sushi place (five additional page links at the bottom). This is the
good stuff. If somebody put a plateful of these plastic replicas in
front of you, you would try to eat then. Bon appetit as they say, and
enjoy the experience.
http://www.sushivan.com/b2b/fr/fr_m.asp?subcode=01&gotopage=1
Not that I have anything against Disneyland as a surreal place to
visit, but what it depicts is not real to begin with. When people go
back repeatedly, the experience probably depends on their current
mental state. The first time I went there, I was a kid and just tripped
on it. During a later visit, I studied how the engineering worked.
HAPPYsamurai
> What Werner said is what Zen and Advaita teachers have been saying for
> a long time: Abstractions (symbols of language) are not the same as
> direct experience; they are a way to package and communicate experience
> as concepts. Learning to use them is not devolution. It's called
> maturing and becoming educated. You don't have to slice a pie every
>
> The Space Boss wrote:
> > Werner says that all experiences ultimately de-volve into concepts, and
> > then we generally don't make a distinction between the experience
> > itself and the concept (ie; when we go to a restaurant, we "eat the
> > menu" not being able to distinguish between the menu and the meal
> > itself). So here's the question:
> >
> > If you go to Disneyland and experience it once, and then go back again
> > the next year, the second time are you trying to experience the
> > "concept" of being at disneyland? I hope you understand what I'm
> > asking.
> >
my first thought is do you have a percieved PRACTICAL aplication for
this "thought"
are you trying to use it to get more ZEN or increase sales, or
strategically rule the universe
cos you can run back the other way along the time line and say concepts
can be a PRECURSER to actions which is a precurser to EXPERIENCE
hence if you can give me some idea of your USAGE...
context is everything when using words and concepts like these IMO
Eldonbraun
> Eldonbraun wrote:
> > What Werner said is what Zen and Advaita teachers have been saying for
> > a long time: Abstractions (symbols of language) are not the same as
> > direct experience; they are a way to package and communicate experience
> > as concepts. Learning to use them is not devolution. It's called
> > maturing and becoming educated. You don't have to slice a pie every
> > time you want to use fractions. During a later visit, I studied how the engineering worked.
> >
> > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > Werner says that all experiences ultimately de-volve into concepts, and
> > > then we generally don't make a distinction between the experience
> > > itself and the concept (ie; when we go to a restaurant, we "eat the
> > > menu" not being able to distinguish between the menu and the meal
> > > itself). So here's the question:
> > >
> > > If you go to Disneyland and experience it once, and then go back again
> > > the next year, the second time are you trying to experience the
> > > "concept" of being at disneyland? I hope you understand what I'm
> > > asking.
> > >
>
>
> my first thought is do you have a percieved PRACTICAL aplication for
> this "thought"
>
> are you trying to use it to get more ZEN or increase sales, or
> strategically rule the universe
Maybe Werner was trying to do both. My thought is that he happened
along at a time and place when two world views converged and collided
with considerably conflict. He studied various mental practices during
the 1960s, and held the first big est seminar in 1971 in San Francisco.
The Vietnam war ended four years later in 1975. There was certainly a
timeline involved.
HAPPYsamurai
> Maybe Werner was trying to do both. My thought is that he happened
> along at a time and place when two world views converged and collided
> with considerably conflict. He studied various mental practices during
> the 1960s, and held the first big est seminar in 1971 in San Francisco.
> The Vietnam war ended four years later in 1975. There was certainly a
> timeline involved.
true, i believe the times probably played a part
to give a few more popular examples from around the time
the beatles and elvis
there will never be another beatles or elvis because the "era" of the
music industry will never recreate that time
the transition from sheet music sales to vynl sales
and they were on the leading edge of the transition and it was still
pre the big financiars making it "their" industry
i'm guessing mr roseburg was in a similar place / time
the guru was still popular
before the industry had been "percieved" for its money making potential
i spose werner and bagwan were the divas of the era of the
industrialisation of the guru business
Eldonbraun
Alan Watts once called Werner "a rogue", and Werner thought it was
pretty funny. People used to see Osho's Rolls Royce collection as a
cosmic joke too. The 1970s were also the heyday of Scientology, the
Moonies and some other cults.
It appears that Australia and New Zealand are still pretty fertile
grounds for cults, though. At least there are a lot of offices and
graduate reunion events listed proportionate to the population (see
Ellen's flying pigs post). Why do you suppose that is?
Estie
Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
now talking about their concepts of it?
Just sumpin' to think about.
Estie
The Space Boss
Estie wrote:
>
> Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> now talking about their concepts of it?
>
Yes of course.
Caligari
The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
states as non-conceptual and experiential. The hypnotic "processes" to
get past "barriers", "create possiblity", etc. are internal
emotive-sensory constructs misidentified as creativity and powerful
rather than the hypnosis and self-hypnosis they are.
-- Enric
Eldonbraun
> The Space Boss wrote:
> > Estie wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > >
> >
> > Yes of course.
>
> The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> states as non-conceptual and experiential.
Now wait a minute. I agree that they are induced hypnotic states. So
far, so good. But are you saying those states are by nature conceptual?
And non-experiential? You're also saying hypnotic states cannot be
creative and powerful?
Just a minute, I'll channel Milton Erickson and get back to you.
Tex
"Caligari" <enric...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153588533.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> -- Enric
That's an interesting mish-mash of pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
If you are skiing down a mountain, cold wind blowing in your face, blood
pumping, snow swooshing, valley below, trees flying by, edges carving
against the side of the mountain, no time to think about the bill you forgot
to pay, or where you are going for dinner, just you experiencing the moment
on the mountain.
Everything I just wrote is based on my memory of an experience. It falls
into a collection of memories communicated by words that now forms a concept
called "skiing down a mountain" in the mind of the reader. Those that have
never skiied before have an "understanding" of what it is like, a
conceptualized reality based on my words. Those that have experienced skiing
may ave their memories jogged by this description, recalling the experience.
I see no distinction between Landmark's distinction of concepts and
experience and that of a dictionary definition.
Main Entry: con·cept
Pronunciation: 'kän-"sept
Function: noun
1 : something conceived in the mind
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
ex·pe·ri·ence (k-spr-ns)
n.
The feeling of emotions and sensations as opposed to thinking; involvement
in what is happening rather than abstract reflection on an event.
>
>
Caligari
Eldonbraun wrote:
> Caligari wrote:
> > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > Estie wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes of course.
> >
> > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
>
I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
-- Enric
Eldonbraun
> Eldonbraun wrote:
> > Caligari wrote:
> > > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > > Estie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes of course.
> > >
> > > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
> >
>
> I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
> experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
> internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
Bullshit. You are making a false distinction here, as Tex illustrated
in his skiing example (which is a pretty exemplary narrative). To use a
Landmarkian example, people face off and say what they find
unattractive about each other, give each other hugs, narrate "shares"
about their emotions at the moment. Now, that is a sensory experience
of an external reality, isn't it?
Yet it's tempered by internal brain chemistry induced by mass hysteria
and the suggestions of the trainer in charge, right? So those ol'
filters influence the experience, right?
Special effects. You can't separate them from external reality because
peole ~interpret~ their experiences. Go wear a pair of prismatic
glasses that turn the world upside down for a day and you'll walk
normally. This is a classic psychology experiment. Your brain is tuning
itself in constantly by doing reality checks.
And by now, you are under my power, so send money to me via PayPal.
Thank you so much.
Caligari
Eldonbraun wrote:
> Caligari wrote:
> > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > > Caligari wrote:
> > > > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > > > Estie wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes of course.
> > > >
> > > > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > > > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
> > >
> >
> > I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
> > experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
> > internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
>
> Bullshit.
You have a well reasoned form of argument, cursing.
-- Enric
Eldonbraun
> Eldonbraun wrote:
> > Caligari wrote:
> > > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > > > Caligari wrote:
> > > > > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > > > > Estie wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > > > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes of course.
> > > > >
> > > > > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > > > > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
> > > experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
> > > internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
> >
> > Bullshit.
>
> You have a well reasoned form of argument, cursing.
You have no reasoned argument, or you would say something other than
this bullshit about my using the term "bullshit." In some circles, that
isn't considered quite up to the cursing stage. Penn & Teller have a TV
show by that name, you know. Ever seen it?
Tex
"Eldonbraun" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153590847.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
And those reality checks are based on our past memories and how we
interpreted them, and how we interpret the experience.
We supply the "meaning" to the experience.
I thought est did a really good job of pointing this out.
Enric, setting aside all the things you didn't like about est and the org.
for a minute, would you not say this is true?
>
> And by now, you are under my power, so send money to me via PayPal.
> Thank you so much.
LOL!!!
You command, and I obey master!
Caligari
> Caligari wrote:
> > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > > Caligari wrote:
> > > > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > > > > Caligari wrote:
> > > > > > The Space Boss wrote:
> > > > > > > Estie wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't they
> > > > > > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes of course.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > > > > > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
> > > > experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
> > > > internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
> > >
> > > Bullshit.
> >
> > You have a well reasoned form of argument, cursing.
>
> You have no reasoned argument, or you would say something other than
> this bullshit about my using the term "bullshit." In some circles, that
> isn't considered quite up to the cursing stage. Penn & Teller have a TV
> show by that name, you know. Ever seen it?
I saw a web version.
Verbal intimidation does not add to an argument whether you, Ellen,
Penn or Werner employ it.
>From http://imaginicity.blogspot.com/2005/03/landmark-learnings.html:
-------------------------
And the Landmark Forum is truly saving the world in some of the
ABSOLUTELY amazing things its doing. ... teaching leaders in war torn
countries to help the peace process, in
prisons, in Hollywood, with teen suicide, in poverty stricken areas
etc. etc. etc. ... man it's absolutely awesome. I've never seen
anything like it.
Apart from that, it was worth going just to analyse the delivery from
an NLP person's point of view ... a mixture of "tough love" (pretty
confronting actually), as well as super highly sophisticated use of
Ericksonian Hypnosis to integrate the learnings (again, blows anything
else I've seen out of the water).
That blew me away too! So-ooooo sophisticated!
-------------------------
In a different blog entry from someone else I read awhile back
describing his being in The Forum, he said the processes are evidently
hypnosis and said it was unethical that it wasn't reported as such. If
I find that blog entry I'll provide it.
The usage and effectiveness of hypnosis goes back hundreds if not
thousands of years. And it has been clinical studied for about 60
years (since at least the 1940's). There's significant scientific
study and evidence for it and it's effectiveness on the mind. Much
more than thesis like filters. And hypnosis is an accurate description
of my experiences of practices in est seminars when I was involved from
1975-1983 and more recently taking some seminar sessions around 2003.
-- Enric
The Space Boss
Hi Caligari,
For this post to work in a derogatory manner, we would have to go
under the premise that hypnosis is "bad".
And I don't think it is.
The Space Boss
Tex wrote:
>
> That's an interesting mish-mash of pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
> If you are skiing down a mountain, cold wind blowing in your face, blood
> pumping, snow swooshing, valley below, trees flying by, edges carving
> against the side of the mountain, no time to think about the bill you forgot
> to pay, or where you are going for dinner, just you experiencing the moment
> on the mountain.
>
> Everything I just wrote is based on my memory of an experience. It falls
> into a collection of memories communicated by words that now forms a concept
> called "skiing down a mountain" in the mind of the reader. Those that have
> never skiied before have an "understanding" of what it is like, a
> conceptualized reality based on my words. Those that have experienced skiing
> may ave their memories jogged by this description, recalling the experience.
>
And as Werner would say: Do you know how to ski down a mountian? YES!
Could you write a book teaching people how to ski down a mountain? NO!
RIGHT TEX???
Tex
"The Space Boss" <drsmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153610673....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
I could write that book.
But reading it wouldn't be nearly as satisfying as skiing.
It could help someone enjoy the experience more.
Bend your knees.
Keep your weight forward.
Point your skis down the hill, and GO!!!!!!!
Wait, I forgot to tell you how to stop! {:~D
Caligari
I didn't say it was "bad" or "good". I've had this conversation before
when I wrote about the use of hypnosis in est/WE&A/LE. Hypnosis is a
powerful tool that can be used or abused. It depends on the intent on
those administering and knowledge of it's application and capabilities
of those receiving it.
Unfortunately the conversation here is often accusatory with attempts
to undermine posts thought personal attacks. A discussion with an
attempt to understand the workings of LE courses could be quite
interesting. But every post appears to be imbued by some readers here
with assumptions of "bad", "good", statements not made, but assumed and
so on.
-- Enric
bruno Tonon
Good point Caligari.
I do appreciate your presentation of the hypnosis angle but I fail to
understand
how it works.
I also get disappointed that you don't give more concrete examples about
your
experiences and how you saw the hypnosis work since you were with the
organisation for such a long time.
Bringing evidence from other Blogs that don't clearly identify the hypnosis
process but just claim that it exhists by saying its "so sooohisticated"
does
not help either.
I can give you a technique they use in Forum when they repeat over and over
again the word Landmark Forum. Pretty basic |"Broken record" technique
that does burn an inprint on your mind about Brand recognition of the
Landmark Product.
All Company Advertising does this, and would do it even more
if they had the budget to support it.
Practise what you preach especially using Randian Logic and her
views about reality namely ,if its not concrete than its not worth looking
at.
I'm all ears and have allways been interested in the hypnosis
angle however not much concrete evidence has come forth.
cheers Bruno
bruno Tonon
Couldn't agree with you more.
How would you suggest we try to overcome that?????
And as you have stated it is an interesting subject???
How did you view Cody's contributions???
Was her approach reasonable??????
How is the filming going??
cheers bruno
>
> -- Enric
>
Caligari
The way I see it is anyone who is interested in actually looking at LE
and it's practices should do that with others also interested. And not
let static derail their discussion.
> And as you have stated it is an interesting subject???
>
> How did you view Cody's contributions???
I haven't read through Cody's entries.
> Was her approach reasonable??????
>
> How is the filming going??
>
It's been going ok. At this point it makes more sense to allocate a
period of time for a film project than shooting in a scattered manner.
So I'm concentrating on some software projects now.
-- Enric
>
> cheers bruno
> >
> > -- Enric
> >
Tex
"Caligari" <enric...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153616307.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> Caligari wrote:
>> > The Space Boss wrote:
>> > > Estie wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Space, if people ~experienced~ Landmark or est long ago, aren't
>> > > > they
>> > > > now talking about their concepts of it?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Yes of course.
>> >
>> > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
>> > states as non-conceptual and experiential. The hypnotic "processes" to
>> > get past "barriers", "create possiblity", etc. are internal
>> > emotive-sensory constructs misidentified as creativity and powerful
>> > rather than the hypnosis and self-hypnosis they are.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Caligari,
>> For this post to work in a derogatory manner, we would have to go
>> under the premise that hypnosis is "bad".
>>
>> And I don't think it is.
>
> I didn't say it was "bad" or "good". I've had this conversation before
> when I wrote about the use of hypnosis in est/WE&A/LE. Hypnosis is a
> powerful tool that can be used or abused. It depends on the intent on
> those administering and knowledge of it's application and capabilities
> of those receiving it.
It's a "powerful tool," as you describe hypnosis in this post.
Perviously you stated,
"The hypnotic "processes" to get past "barriers", "create possiblity", etc.
are internal emotive-sensory constructs misidentified as creativity and
powerful rather than the hypnosis and self-hypnosis they are.<end quote>
So which is it?
Internal emotive-sensory constructs misidentified as creativity and
powerful rather than the hypnosis and self-hypnosis they are?
And you're saying what you say above is neutral, not "bad" or "good?"
Or is hypnosis and self-hypnosis a powerful tool?
You seem to be contradicting yourself here?
BTW, can you or anyone supply me a defintion of hypnosis?
Caligari
It is "bad" in that the properties of hypnosis have been misidentified
and overblown as causing miraculous possiblities. There are two main
problems I see:
1) Lack of informed consent to receive repeated hypnotic inductions.
2) Misidentifying the results of hypnosis with overblown language of
"creating possibility", dissolving "barriers", "creating miracles" and
such.
I describe the hypnotic result as a "internal emotive-sensory
constructs". This is my personal understanding of the state I had
developed over eight years of involvement in est seminars and events.
Which dissipitated in time and with self-analysis. I offer it with the
limitations inherent in individual knowledge to be confirmed or changed
by others who have investigated the effect of being involved in
est/WE&A/LE.
>
> Or is hypnosis and self-hypnosis a powerful tool?
It is a powerful tool that can be used or abused.
>
> You seem to be contradicting yourself here?
I don't see the contradiction.
> BTW, can you or anyone supply me a defintion of hypnosis?
>From American Psychological Association (
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div30/define_hypnosis.html ):
===========================================
New Definition: Hypnosis
The Division 30 Definition and Description of Hypnosis
Hypnosis typically involves an introduction to the procedure during
which the subject is told that suggestions for imaginative experiences
will be presented. The hypnotic induction is an extended initial
suggestion for using one's imagination, and may contain further
elaborations of the introduction. A hypnotic procedure is used to
encourage and evaluate responses to suggestions. When using hypnosis,
one person (the subject) is guided by another (the hypnotist) to
respond to suggestions for changes in subjective experience,
alterations in perception, sensation, emotion, thought or behavior.
Persons can also learn self-hypnosis, which is the act of administering
hypnotic procedures on one's own. If the subject responds to hypnotic
suggestions, it is generally inferred that hypnosis has been induced.
Many believe that hypnotic responses and experiences are characteristic
of a hypnotic state. While some think that it is not necessary to use
the word "hypnosis" as part of the hypnotic induction, others view it
as essential.
Details of hypnotic procedures and suggestions will differ depending on
the goals of the practitioner and the purposes of the clinical or
research endeavor. Procedures traditionally involve suggestions to
relax, though relaxation is not necessary for hypnosis and a wide
variety of suggestions can be used including those to become more
alert. Suggestions that permit the extent of hypnosis to be assessed by
comparing responses to standardized scales can be used in both clinical
and research settings. While the majority of individuals are responsive
to at least some suggestions, scores on standardized scales range from
high to negligible. Traditionally, scores are grouped into low, medium,
and high categories. As is the case with other positively-scaled
measures of psychological constructs such as attention and awareness,
the salience of evidence for having achieved hypnosis increases with
the individual's score.
===========================================
-- Enric
Tex
What does hypnosis have to do with people getting in touch with estranged
family members, as Siam did with his brother?
Perhaps he actually did "dissolve a barrier," "create a possibility" etc.
That's a tangible, objective event, not an "emotive sensory construct."
>
> I describe the hypnotic result as a "internal emotive-sensory
> constructs". This is my personal understanding of the state I had
> developed over eight years of involvement in est seminars and events.
> Which dissipitated in time and with self-analysis. I offer it with the
> limitations inherent in individual knowledge to be confirmed or changed
> by others who have investigated the effect of being involved in
> est/WE&A/LE.
>
>>
>> Or is hypnosis and self-hypnosis a powerful tool?
>
> It is a powerful tool that can be used or abused.
>
>>
>> You seem to be contradicting yourself here?
> I don't see the contradiction.
You claim it is a powerful tool.
Then you discount results from this "powerful tool" as "internal
emotive-sensory constructs misidentified as creativity and powerful rather
than the hypnosis and self-hypnosis they are."
You claim hypnosis is a powerful tool.
Then you discount what happens in est as nothing more than hypnosis.
Can you still not see the contradiction?
For the record, I don't think it is that powerful.
>
>
>> BTW, can you or anyone supply me a defintion of hypnosis?
>
Thanks.
Would you say you scored in the highly suggestible range.
What did Werner Erhard and company hypnotize you to do?
When did they do this to you?
Serena Nordstrup
You seem to use a crippled/simplistic dictionary, Tex -- did Elron
write it?
Try:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/60/E0286000.html
experience
NOUN: 1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the
senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow. 2a. Active
participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of
knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with
experience in roof repair. b. The knowledge or skill so derived. 3a. An
event or a series of events participated in or lived through. b. The
totality of such events in the past of an individual or group.
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: ex·per·i·enced,
ex·per·i·enc·ing, ex·per·i·enc·es
To participate in personally; undergo: experience a great adventure;
experienced loneliness.
HAPPYsamurai
> You seem to be contradicting yourself here?
> BTW, can you or anyone supply me a defintion of hypnosis?
>
>
one definition
using trance etc to get a person to "react" a particular way to a
particular "cue"
it can be a stage beyond repeatedly training or "drilling" the response
by physical repetition
one could say its a good way for a jet pilot to learn the eject
precedure from a plane
until he flies a different plane that ejects out the bottom instead of
the top, when doing work in an exchange with another air force
bruno Tonon
"Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1153639023....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Try:
And how does your new definition help the conversation.
Whats your input into this????
Eldonbraun
> What does hypnosis have to do with people getting in touch with estranged
> family members, as Siam did with his brother?
> Perhaps he actually did "dissolve a barrier," "create a possibility" etc.
> That's a tangible, objective event, not an "emotive sensory construct."
It probably has to do with the person's vulnerability, and might also
involve informed consent. You might want to take a look at the code of
ethics for hypnotherapists and see if Landmark could abide by all of
them.
http://www.aphp.co.uk/ethics.php
Just a few examples:
8. Refrain from using their position of trust to exploit the client
emotionally, sexually, financially or in other way whatsoever. Should
either a sexual or financial relationship (other than the payment of
session fees or purchase of books, tapes, or other relevant products)
develop between either therapist and client or members of their
respective immediate families, the therapist must immediately cease to
accept fees, terminate treatment consistent with clause 9 below and
transfer the client to another suitable therapist at the earliest
opportunity.
9. Refrain from commencing any sort of relationship with any client,
past or present, other than a therapeutic one. Clients must remain
solely as clients. Members are strongly advised against working with
friends or family for anything other than simple relaxation work or
other 'single-session' therapies.
10. Terminate treatment at the earliest moment consistent with the good
care of the client.
Tex
"Serena Nordstrup" <s_nor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1153639023....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tex wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/experience
I "snipped" for brevity.
HAPPYsamurai
> experience
>
> NOUN: 1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the
> senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow. 2a. Active
> participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of
> knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with
> experience in roof repair. b. The knowledge or skill so derived. 3a. An
> event or a series of events participated in or lived through. b. The
> totality of such events in the past of an individual or group.
> TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: ex·per·i·enced,
> ex·per·i·enc·ing, ex·per·i·enc·es
> To participate in personally; undergo: experience a great adventure;
> experienced loneliness.
linguistic warning beware of abstract nouns, those related to verbs,
you know them because unlike others nouns like apples, and dogs, you
can't put them in a wheel barrow
they probably play with your brain wiring too
Caligari
Here's a video from "the show with zefranks" describing how areas of
the brain stimulated without external sensory reference will construct
meaning.
Video
--------
http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/archives/2006/07/071206.html
Transcript
--------------
http://www.zefrank.com/thewiki/the_show:_07-12-06
Relevant text:
-------------------
The normal brain gets a variety of signals from our sensory organs.
Information from places like our eyes and ears are encoded into
electrical impulses that travel through our neurons. Neurons pass these
signals to other neurons using chemicals called neurotransmitters.
Billions of neurons in our brain use this to process the raw data into
symbolic structures. For example chairs come in many different shapes,
sizes, and colors. The information our brain gets from viewing a chair
from straight on is very different than the raw data that we get from
that same chair rotated 90°. But the complex symbolic structure of our
brains still allows us to recognize it as a chair. This reduction of
information in the symbolic structures allows us to navigate and feel
comfortable in an incredibly complex world. Taking hallucinogens causes
neurons to release neurotransmitters in different quantities and
frequencies. Part of the brain that might not have ever talked to each
other before start talking to each other. Like the naked part, the
salsa part, the knitting part, and the parade part. Because of the
brain's desire to create symbolic structures temporary ones are made
even if they don't make sense. We feel like we're recognizing patterns
even when there are none. In this way many different parts of the world
can suddenly feel connected. This confusing and temporary connectedness
can be called spirituallity. People can achieve similar results by
constantly challenging our brains to fault symbolic architectures.
-------------------
For some LE courses could be crack hypnosis: a constant need to
hypnotically stimulate sections of the brain with assigned,
pseudo-spiritual assigned patterns as "dissolve a barrier," "create a
possibility", "living powerfully", "being the space of possibility",
The Space Boss
HAPPYsamurai wrote:
>
> they probably play with your brain wiring too
Is this a bad thing? People go to get "rewired" because their life
isn't working. So, surely "rewiring" is something they should insist
upon for thier monies?
Estie
Eldonbraun wrote:
> Caligari wrote:
> > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > > Caligari wrote:
> > > > The interesting aspect is that est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic
> > > > states as non-conceptual and experiential.
> > >
> >
> > I said they are internal "emotive-sensory constructs", they are faux
> > experiential constructs. Sensory experience is of external reality, an
> > internal sensory with emotional construct is a false reality.
>
> Bullshit.
Bullshit, Eldon. The internal hypnotic processes are what most people
call *imagination!*
Estie
Estie
Caligari wrote:
>
> I didn't say it was "bad" or "good". I've had this conversation before
> when I wrote about the use of hypnosis in est/WE&A/LE. Hypnosis is a
> powerful tool that can be used or abused. It depends on the intent on
> those administering and knowledge of it's application and capabilities
> of those receiving it.
As Enric said earlier, it also needs to be identified and understood as
what it is.
Estie
The Space Boss
I'm troubled a little by what I've studied. Why can't I derive pleasure
from conceptualization? Why does it matter if I derive pleasure from
experience or conceptualization? Why must I draw a distinction if I'm
getting what I want out of it?
Tex
Who said anything about the concept of pleasure?
Nonetheless, enjoy what you enjoy.
I eagled a par 4 today after driving the green and 1 putting. It was a short
hole, just over 300 yards. It was probably the best drive I've ever hit. No,
it was the best drive I EVER hit. I've been "replaying" it in my head for
hours now. I used my brand new Titanium graphite club with the high, but
legal, C.O.R. It was a perfect swing, for me at least. I only had to make a
6 foot putt for the eagle. Oddly, I was hitting the ball poorly all day. My
putting saved me. But for one moment, I had an idea what Tiger must
experience nearly everytime he hit it this weekend at the British Open.
From that one shot I can't wait to get back out there and play again. I hit
the shot 8 hours ago. Could have been 5 minutes or 500 years ago now. It's
only a memory, but a good one. {:~D
>
Eldonbraun
This get back to who the "some" are. Some people watching an exciting
movie will lose themselves in the ~experience~ and mentally identify
with the story they see and hear. Others will maintain a sense of
separate identity and remain aware that they are sitting in a seat
watching a screen. As a variable, an IMAX movie may disorient more of
the audience into losing their respective sense of time and place.
A Landmark event is a real life, staged ~experience~ where the
particpants are directed by the trainer and staff. It resembles a
therapy process called psychodrama.
This also gets into the semantics of those pseudo-spritual assigned
patterns (or concepts). Some people will take them more literally or
interpret them differently than others while they are under the
influence. Are they viewing a documentary about a real person who
overcame adversity, or some special effects fantasy about casting magic
spells and enabling pigs to fly?
It seems likely that they will interpret the ~experience~ through
whatever pre-existent trances they brought to the party. So... you're
saying, "est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic states as non-conceptual
and experiential."
I'm saying there's a ~possibility~ that no such clear distinction
exists to begin with. Many hypnotherapists like to paraphrase Milton
Erickson and tell clients, "You're already hypnotized."
Est/Landmark trainers do talk about seeing the world through filters. I
agree they should clearly inform people that their purpose is to
install different filters.
Eldonbraun
That's one thing they are called. What I am saying is that they always,
inevitably affect and interact with sensory experience of external
reality -- at least in people who develop a normal sense of identity or
self.
>
> Estie
bruno Tonon
"Eldonbraun" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153725182....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Well explained Eldon.
I think LEC does imply your view of the world
may change because of a change of filters.
Often this is a very temporary change especially
in my case because its just so easy to fall into
the trap of habitual behavior, and behave
as you allways have .
Eldonbraun
I agree that it isn't "bad." But as Hap says, it helps to know what you
can put in a wheelbarrow and what you can't.
Eldonbraun
> Well explained Eldon.
Well, thanks for the compliment, Bruno. I have never objected to those.
Now here are a couple of personal questions that you may or may not
wish to answer. I don't care what you DO, but scroll down anyway and
you'll get to the questions.
> I think LEC does imply your view of the world
> may change because of a change of filters.
> Often this is a very temporary change especially
> in my case because its just so easy to fall into
> the trap of habitual behavior, and behave
> as you allways have .
1, HOW DO YOU WANT TO BEHAVE, BRUNO?
2. WHAT IS STOPPING YOU?
bruno Tonon
Good question Eldon however not easy to answer.
Procrastination is a favourite friend of mine
and even though I have tried to seperate from
him on many occasions ,he constantly follows me around.
What is stopping me from just moving on
Don't know. Maybe you can help???
cheers
>
Serena Nordstrup
You ask:
> And how does your new definition help the conversation.
I provided no definition of my own, Bruno -- merely quoted and
referenced some North American tome to provide Tex with some balance
and extension.
If youj want/expect ~conversation~, I suggest you ~try~ elsewhere --
somewhere more amenable to rosenbergist strictures.
> Whats your input into this????
If you look carefully, Bruno, you can read what I have written. Call it
my input.
Serena Nordstrup
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/experience has:
n.
1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the
senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow.
2.
1. Active participation in events or activities, leading to
the accumulation of knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience;
a carpenter with experience in roof repair.
2. The knowledge or skill so derived.
3.
1. An event or a series of events participated in or lived
through.
2. The totality of such events in the past of an individual or
group.
tr.v.
To participate in personally; undergo: experience a great
adventure; experienced loneliness.
Your Texian definition read:
"The feeling of emotions and sensations as opposed to thinking;
involvement in what is happening rather than abstract reflection on an
event."
Your snippage/paraphrase distorted the definition and drove it in the
direction of landmarckian jargon whilst purporing to have
dictionary-based respectability... Has Elron influenced your thinking,
directly or indirectly, in this matter?
Serena Nordstrup
The Space Boss wrote:
> HAPPYsamurai wrote:
>
> >
> > they probably play with your brain wiring too
>
> Is this a bad thing?
Potentially very bad.
> People go to get "rewired" because their life
> isn't working.
That does not justify generic playing with brain-wiring -- even if some
few people do hold the idiosyncratic minority view that their ~life~
(whatever that means) does not ~work~ (whatever that means)...
> So, surely "rewiring" is something they should insist
> upon for thier monies?
Non sequitur.
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Show us "a tangible, objective event" "dissolving a barrier" or
"creating a possibility". Photographs or videos accepatable.
Eldonbraun
Well Bruno, if I promised to give you the answer to that question,
would you pay me -- oh, say, $10,000 of your devalued Australian
dollars? Directly into my PayPal account?
That was only a rhetorical question anyway, because I can't help you
any more than LE can help you. I can only advise you that you are
barking up the wrong tree by asking someone else for the answer to
those two very simple questions. Of course they are not easy to answer,
but I'm sure you can to your own satisfaction if you continue to ask
yourself. You will, of course, come up with multiple answers.
>
> cheers
> >
Tex
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/experience has:
n.
tr.v.
Your Texian definition read:
There are various usages for words Serena.
For instances, this definition of experience would be what someone puts on
their resumé.
The totality of such events in the past of an individual or group.
But that's not the usage I was using, hence the snip, to avoid confusion on
what I was trying to convey.
Tex
He wasn't talking to his brother for years.
After he took the Forum he decided he wanted to have a relationship with his
brother.
So he did.
Siam told us he was the best man at his brothers wedding.
You can call him and interview his brother if you want.
I'll take his word for it.
I've seen similar things with people I knew.
Tex
Maybe he's pay you $380,000.
Then you could come back to the States. ;-D
Eldonbraun
I can return to the states whenever I please, Tex. But every month I
delay my return, it costs Harry Palmer at least $200K... probably more.
So why would I be in a hurry? The longer, the merrier the karma. It's
fun. Hi, Harry. Hi, Werner.
Fuck you both. Have a nice day.
Tex
ROTFLMAO!!!
I like that.
I'll bite.
How is it costing Harry 200k if you stay in France?
You can't be raking it in in France, or they'd have thrown you out by now.
;-D
Caligari
Not necessarily disagreeing with your analysis. But what is the basis
of the conclusoins? Have you taken est/LE courses? Is it from social
science papers, books on est, others?
>
> This also gets into the semantics of those pseudo-spritual assigned
> patterns (or concepts). Some people will take them more literally or
> interpret them differently than others while they are under the
> influence. Are they viewing a documentary about a real person who
> overcame adversity, or some special effects fantasy about casting magic
> spells and enabling pigs to fly?
>
> It seems likely that they will interpret the ~experience~ through
> whatever pre-existent trances they brought to the party. So... you're
> saying, "est/WE&A/Landmark identify hypnotic states as non-conceptual
> and experiential."
That is what Bartley says is Werner's thesis, that people are already
hypnotized coming into the Forum. Bartley doesn't offer any reasoning
or proof of this. So I'm suspicious of the sweeping claim.
>
> I'm saying there's a ~possibility~ that no such clear distinction
> exists to begin with. Many hypnotherapists like to paraphrase Milton
> Erickson and tell clients, "You're already hypnotized."
I can say that there is a clear distinction for me when I moved into a
hypnotic state and moved out of it. I was assisting at the est
Berkeley/Oakland office. Staff members were coming in and praising
Werner. It was hyperbole and I was wondering how they could just say
he's so great while my experience of Werner didn't show him as that
special. Then after some weeks of taking seminars with processes and
listening to this continuing praise I excepted it automatically as
true. I actually noticed myself accepting it and wondered why I did.
But the critical analysis of what I excepted and took as true from the
outside had taken a back seat. It wouldnt' be until about six years
later that I would regain my rationality. I was in a state where an
internal reality about est superceded my individual rational thinking
from my senses. And it was clearly a different state I was in.
>
> Est/Landmark trainers do talk about seeing the world through filters. I
> agree they should clearly inform people that their purpose is to
> install different filters.
Yes, est/LE course leaders talk about filters. But, first it's not
clear what is meant by filters. And second it's part of the est/LE
ideology of pealing away to the true self. So the usage of the word
"filters" should be at least clarified with the thesis behind it. And
whether what is meant is the same or distinct from est/LE.
Caligari
That is not my experience of the state. It is separate from the
sensory experiece of external reality. It did not change to differing
external input. The structure of the hypnotic state remained even when
proof counter it was observed. I've seen Werner act counter to the
hypnotic ideals I had incorporated, but that information had no effect
on the non-rational ideas maintained. I've also observed at points in
my life things falling apart when being involved in est, but it didn't
effect my allegiance and certainty about my involvement. The internal
construct existed on it's own without modification of differing outside
information.
-- Enric
> >
> > Estie
Tex
Enric said,
I can say that there is a clear distinction for me when I moved into a
hypnotic state and moved out of it. I was assisting at the est
Berkeley/Oakland office. Staff members were coming in and praising Werner.
It was hyperbole and I was wondering how they could just say he's so great
while my experience of Werner didn't show him as that special. Then after
some weeks of taking seminars with processes and listening to this
continuing praise I excepted it automatically as true. I actually noticed
myself accepting it and wondered why I did. But the critical analysis of
what I excepted and took as true from the outside had taken a back seat. It
wouldnt' be until about six years later that I would regain my rationality.
I was in a state where an internal reality about est superceded my
individual rational thinking from my senses. And it was clearly a different
state I was in. <end snip>
To use the old vernacular, that's you " story."
You claim you didn't know what was happening, yet you have come to this
conclusion.
I also took some seminars and went half way through GSLP, much like you. I
never idolized Werner Erhard. Remember the reaction of the granola-eating
set in your GSLP when Werner sparks up a huge cigar during the
enrollment/sales training videos?
My experience of est was that people liked it in spite of Werner. Since you
were in San Fran and I in Boston, I suppose the culture could have been
different.
I'm afraid your cause and effect scenario is purely subjective.
Much like Estie, you haven't provided anything of substance other than
trying to rationalize your respective and excessive participation with the
excuse of " They made me do it by hypnotizing and brainwashing me."
Very little personal accountability here.
It just sounds like a victim mentality.
Caligari
You make the error of including what I have said with others. I have
always disagreed with the assignment of "brainwashing" to what
est/Landmark does. And if you had read and distinguished my prior
posts you would have seen that difference.
>
> Very little personal accountability here.
> It just sounds like a victim mentality.
When I switched to criticaly analyzing the actions and results in est,
I did leave fairly shortly after that. I can also identify the date
and place when I switched to critical thinking -- it is not an
amorphous event. I was eighteen when I took the est Training. I
didn't have the experience and knowledge many adults had of the
sophisticated techniques employed. When I did rationaly look at est, I
took action to not be involved in a charade rather than go along. To a
large extent it would have been easier to keep going along.
If someone steps on your foot it is just as incorrect to say that you
are the instigator of the pain. As it is for the one stepping on your
foot to say they had nothing to do with the result and your being a
victim.
-- Enric
P.S. I expect that your responses will continue to try to undermine
the authenticity of my posts. Your past responses haven't seriously
taken criticisms of est techniques and usually try to undermine the
person criticizing.
Tex
Enric said,
You make the error of including what I have said with others. I have
always disagreed with the assignment of "brainwashing" to what
est/Landmark does. And if you had read and distinguished my prior
posts you would have seen that difference.
Tex responds,
OK, you were hypnotized into thinking est and Werner were great, awsome, not
" brainwashed."
I certainly thought some of the people I met appeared brainwashed, just as
you probably mused early on.
Do you think it may have simply been peer pressure that got you to conform?
Perhaps it was simply a desire to fit in?
>
> Very little personal accountability here.
> It just sounds like a victim mentality.
Enric continues,
When I switched to criticaly analyzing the actions and results in est,
I did leave fairly shortly after that. I can also identify the date
and place when I switched to critical thinking -- it is not an
amorphous event. I was eighteen when I took the est Training. I
didn't have the experience and knowledge many adults had of the
sophisticated techniques employed. When I did rationaly look at est, I
took action to not be involved in a charade rather than go along. To a
large extent it would have been easier to keep going along.<end enric>
Tex replies,
That sounds like what I did also. I was a little older than you when I took
est, 24, and never had been one to follow the crowd.
Most of the people I knew, even the GSLPers, were somewhat skeptical and
certainly not Werner groupies.<end tex>
If someone steps on your foot it is just as incorrect to say that you
are the instigator of the pain. As it is for the one stepping on your
foot to say they had nothing to do with the result and your being a
victim.
-- Enric
P.S. I expect that your responses will continue to try to undermine
the authenticity of my posts. Your past responses haven't seriously
taken criticisms of est techniques and usually try to undermine the
person criticizing.<end enric>
No one has presented evidence of how est/Landmark implants via hypnosis the
magic post-hypnotic suggestion that make them love Werner and est.
You see my criticisms as a personal attack. I'm challenging your argument,
not you. In your case, I'm just not buying how you came to your conclusions.
It's subjective, not objective. You can believe you started loving Werner
because of seminar processes. Believe that the moon is made out of green
cheese if you wish also. No objective proff has been presented, and since I
also took part in the same programs you did, and have a totally different
view, I'm challenging your assertions.
Although I listened to Werner's tapes and saw him a couple of times, I never
particularly cared for him or idolized him in anyway.
In about a year I had seen enough, hastened by fairly early participation in
the GSLP.
Either the hypnosis didn't work on me, or your premise has a few holes in
it.
Caligari
I have mainly acted without the expectations and pressures of others.
I took the est Training without letting my parents or firends at school
know. I was interested in Psychology and the human potentional
movement. I started out at U.C. Berkeley as a Psch. major. When I was
asked to assist or take a seminar I always considered my choice.
However that choice referenced a internal construct developed through
hypnotic processes. When I left est, it was counter to what everyone
thought I should and would do. And it was without consulting anyone or
their expectations.
-- Enric
>
> <snip>
Tex
How do you know that?
What evidence can you present that proves or even suggests that you assisted
because you were hypnotized to do so, yet most participants never come close
to your level of involvement?
It's simply an assertion based on your subjective experience.
It sounds like a cop-out for having been manipulated to "donate" your time
to a for-profit company that unfortunately didn't mind using you for said
profit.
I have yet to see any evidence that behavior like yours or Estie's was the
result of being placed in an hypnotic trance.
Of course having said that, it could explain some of the behavior I
witnessed! {:~D
I think it was nothing more than old-fashion manipulation through peer
pressure and people wanting to "look good" in frot of other "cult members."
Tell me how they hypnotized you to do things you didn't want to do?
In the "Be Here Now," seminar?
What's So?
GSLP?
Caligari
> > <snip>
I repeat my postscript from my prior post:
--------------------------
P.S. I expect that your responses will continue to try to undermine
the authenticity of my posts. Your past responses haven't seriously
taken criticisms of est techniques and usually try to undermine the
person criticizing.
--------------------------
No need to respond beyond that when you place your evaluations superior
to personal rational knowledge.
-- Enric
Tex
So essentially, beyond your ad-hominem dismissal of what I've said, you have
nothing objective to offer, but simply subjective musings.
Got it.
I think your posts are authentic.
But they are authentically subjective.
No substance.
Estie
> That's one thing they are called. What I am saying is that they always,
> inevitably affect and interact with sensory experience of external
> reality -- at least in people who develop a normal sense of identity or
> self.
Ummm, where'dja get the idea esties/lecies develop a normal sense of
identity or self?
This is living in a dream world, pure and simple, and it's not
self-directed. In hypnosis, the subject follows the instructions.
This is living in Werner's dream world.
Estie
Eldonbraun
> Eldonbraun wrote:
> > That's one thing they are called. What I am saying is that they always,
> > inevitably affect and interact with sensory experience of external
> > reality -- at least in people who develop a normal sense of identity or
> > self.
>
> Ummm, where'dja get the idea esties/lecies develop a normal sense of
> identity or self?
The vast majority of people did at around the age of three. I was
referring to the "terrible twos" or Lacan's mirror stage. I assume this
would include most people who did est or Landmark or any other similar
course. Of course those trainings go out of their way to strip people
of their individual sense of identity to some extent -- which is
usually a temporary phenomenon.
Eldonbraun
> You make the error of including what I have said with others. I have
> always disagreed with the assignment of "brainwashing" to what
> est/Landmark does. And if you had read and distinguished my prior
> posts you would have seen that difference.
>
> >
> > Very little personal accountability here.
> > It just sounds like a victim mentality.
>
> When I switched to criticaly analyzing the actions and results in est,
> I did leave fairly shortly after that. I can also identify the date
> and place when I switched to critical thinking -- it is not an
> amorphous event. I was eighteen when I took the est Training. I
> didn't have the experience and knowledge many adults had of the
> sophisticated techniques employed. When I did rationaly look at est, I
> took action to not be involved in a charade rather than go along. To a
> large extent it would have been easier to keep going along.
>
> If someone steps on your foot it is just as incorrect to say that you
> are the instigator of the pain. As it is for the one stepping on your
> foot to say they had nothing to do with the result and your being a
> victim.
OK Enric, I think I got it. They put you into the "creating your
reality" mental paradigm and convinced you that was ~more~ real than
your prior way of interactiving with the outside world. Or, they told
you that you'd previously been in a trance, but after the training you
were no longer in a trance. They pawned off the one they installed as
"the way things really are." Is that correct?
Some people might call it brainwashing, and some might just call it
coersion. But I agree that the altered state was very likely less
~realistic~ (or authentic) than the way you had previously experienced
the world and interacted with people. As I said, I only took one
knockoff Lifespring course, which was a little different but operated
on the same general principles, and I was older and more jaded when I
did.
So what if they had said the new trance was an altered state, and
another way of looking at the world? -- something like that. Would that
have made a difference? Or would you have gotten so heavily involved if
they had not oversold it as "the real thing"?
Tex
"Estie" <old_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1153802455....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
LOL!!!!
Fiction, pure and simple Estie.
When I show you the Queen of Hearts Estie, you will forget everything that
was just said, and obey my every command, just like you used to.
Now go to the center, and don't forget the Registration forms. ;-D
>
> Estie
>
Serena Nordstrup
Of course.
> For instances, this definition of experience would be what someone puts on
> their resumé.
>
> The totality of such events in the past of an individual or group.
It would not *be* what someone puts on a resumé -- it would *describe*
what someone puts on a resumé.
> But that's not the usage I was using, hence the snip, to avoid confusion on
> what I was trying to convey.
Your "snip" (snip of what exactly?) falsely claimed dictionary
imprimatur by giving no indication of snippage.
You can define a word however you like. But passing your definition off
as *the* sole definition from some dictionary may lead to deep
suspicion as to your motives. And presenting such a definition in words
favorable to a rosenbergist-jargonesque distortion of the English
language misleads and deceives.
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
<snip>
> I think LEC does imply your view of the world
> may change because of a change of filters.
Does anyone else apart from rosenbergists find this idea remotely
fruitful?
Serena Nordstrup
"creating a possibility". Photographs or videos acceptable.
bruno Tonon
You were 18 , impressionable and idealistic. I can understand how the
"work" sucked you in because at some moments I also felt it.
I was fortunate to have family responsibilities and a great wife
and therefore my time at LEC was limited.
Had I been younger and without partner I would have gladly
spent more time at LEC because I liked the people there and
the opportunity to meet girls.
Looking back I was involved doing the hack work, such as the
straight chairs, sweeping cleaning the front and picking up
cigarette butts and cleaning.
Ofcourse I objected to doing this menial work, but when the rest
of the team take it on graciously and with enthusiam to get the show
on the road, you somehow follow.
So I see it more as "groupthink", for all the team want to
work for the succes of the program. Was I going to be the
party pooper to stop this from happening.?????
Also they cleverly insert that if you wish to leave you can
as no one is keeping you there.
So its a balancing act, how much are you getting from the
program in return for your time and labour.
I had a few run ins especially at the end of a Forum workshop
where you had to clean up, debrief and then at times be
acknowledged by the Forum leader.
This was my anger stage as I needed to get home to
my family and I hated the waiting for the supervisor/
and Forum leader to have their chats without any consideration
for the serfs.
However I can see if I was younger I probably would have
liked to to hang around and then party after. LEC is clever
with their acknowledgements and the enthusiam of the
team helps you to overcome any of the negative emotions
that may arise towards the Supervisors or organisation.
And finally the fact that you were so close to Werner, part
of the inner sanctum, surely that closeness to the nectar
may have brought you some kind of added seducement
from the crowd.
I'm afraid that I am with Tex on this one. I also cannot understand
your explanation of why you stayed so long with the organisation.
Caligari
Yes, that is correct.
>
> Some people might call it brainwashing, and some might just call it
> coersion. But I agree that the altered state was very likely less
> ~realistic~ (or authentic) than the way you had previously experienced
> the world and interacted with people. As I said, I only took one
> knockoff Lifespring course, which was a little different but operated
> on the same general principles, and I was older and more jaded when I
> did.
>
> So what if they had said the new trance was an altered state, and
> another way of looking at the world? -- something like that. Would that
> have made a difference?
Yes, it would have made a significant difference.
>Or would you have gotten so heavily involved if
> they had not oversold it as "the real thing"?
I would not have disregarded my school work, future plans for graduate
school and personal desires if I didn't think I was transforming the
world into a new, significantly better place.
-- Enric
HAPPYsamurai
> I would not have disregarded my school work, future plans for graduate
> school and personal desires if I didn't think I was transforming the
> world into a new, significantly better place.
>
> -- Enric
I think this one is a real issue of note
there is a certain percentage of humans that are into doing goods
things in the world, combine that with a youthful zeal or idealism or
just lack of worldly maturity and you can take these people away from
setting there life up
the early days of proffesional sport had the same problem
Tex
I went back to school after I took est.
And I didn't participate in est after about a year, and never while I was
going to school.
I guess they "hypnotized" me differently.
>
> -- Enric
>
HAPPYsamurai
> I went back to school after I took est.
> And I didn't participate in est after about a year, and never while I was
> going to school.
> I guess they "hypnotized" me differently.
chuckle
you were "under the influence" of something else
that would have "protected" you
elle...@hotmail.com
Tex wrote:
> I went back to school after I took est.
> And I didn't participate in est after about a year, and never while I was
> going to school.
> I guess they "hypnotized" me differently.
Oh gee, "Tex,"
Another opportunity to trumpet your superiority, your ~extraordinary~
(barf) personal advantage over others, and your "evidence" that those
who imagined themselves harmed by their participation in this stupid
group to be themselves at fault because you yourself suffered no such
thing, (and your big fat obnoxious ego which evidently won't let you
pass up a single chance to preen).
Ellen
Eldonbraun
> Caligari wrote:
>
> > I would not have disregarded my school work, future plans for graduate
> > school and personal desires if I didn't think I was transforming the
> > world into a new, significantly better place.
> >
> > -- Enric
>
> I think this one is a real issue of note
In terms of culture, it is a real issue in the United States and other
places where there's an ongoing mentality of neglecting kids and
tossing them out on their own when they're 18. It turns them into cult
bait because there is so little transition. They get too little
assistance and support for setting their lives up.
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153921187....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I'm pointing out that Enric's conclusions of his participation are flawed.
The same goes for Estie.
They weren't magically hypnotized to do Werner Erhard's "work." They were
seduced, sucked in, perhaps bamboozled by something they thought was good.
They wanted to help people, and they thought this was a way to do it.
They wanted to "look good" and belong and were more susceptible to being
manipulated than others. No one "hypnotized" anyone to enroll people in
Landmark, anymore than Dr. Z is hypnotizing people to buy Chrysler products
on TV.
I'm not saying Enric was not harmed for wasting his time volunteering for a
for-profit company. I'm saying he wasn't hypnotized, in a trance, based on a
few processes in a seminar. That's nonsense.
http://www.filmsite.org/manc.html
Now Ellen, why don't you pass the time playing a little solitaire.
When you're finished, you won't remember anything about our conversation,
only that Tex is "is the bravest, kindest, warmest, most wonderful human
being (you've) ever known in (your) life." {:~D
>
>
> Ellen
>
Eldonbraun
Tex, Dr. Z is mainly rational. However, one person's persuasion is
another person's hypnotism or incipient brainwashing. It's a matter of
degree, and the specific terms used are legion. Persuasion is a low
level of hypnotism. At least, that is my take on it. Hypnosis is part
of the human condition. It's the conceptual "filters" they talk about
in Landmark. Only theirs are more insidious.
Jeez, just look what Ayn Rand did to Markus!
Caligari
In my case (and I think it's true for most others involved in est/LE),
the hypnotic structure didn't occur until I practiced the techniques
myself: self-hypnosis. In the seminars you are continually implored to
try out the techniques -- see how they fit. Try them out at home and
work when barriers and situations that arise. It's when I
self-hypnotized that it became a trusted method. When the critical
thinking of someone out there trying a technique on me went away, since
I was doing it on myself. One of the theories on hypnosis is that it's
really self-hypnosis. That when someone directs hypnosis on
themselves, it becomes hypnotic. And I see that is true. It's not a
contradiction to want to do good for the world, succeed with others in
work and/or relationship and be hypnotized. That's actually the
attraction to accept and self-practice the hypnotic technique.
-- Enric
Tex
"Eldonbraun" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153933474.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Did you see him crash that Chrysler Pacifica into a wall while being
interviewed by the "reporter?"
the airbags engaged, and everyone walked away unscathed.
I'm not sure that was rational though. ;-D
Dr. Z rocks!!!!
Oh oh, Queen of Hearts!!!
Must buy Chrysler, must buy Chrysler.
Dr. Dieter Zetsche is the bravest, kindest, warmest, most wonderful human
being I've ever known in my life
>However, one person's persuasion is
> another person's hypnotism or incipient brainwashing. It's a matter of
> degree, and the specific terms used are legion. Persuasion is a low
> level of hypnotism. At least, that is my take on it. Hypnosis is part
> of the human condition. It's the conceptual "filters" they talk about
> in Landmark. Only theirs are more insidious.
Since you don't have that much direct experience, if any, of Landmark, do
you think this was also true for Lifespring, since you did take the course?
>
> Jeez, just look what Ayn Rand did to Markus!
Amazing, awesome!!!! ;-D
Tex
Hi Enric,
I can buy that. It was you who actually self-hypnotized yourself to believe
all the wonderful things about est.
What did you do to put yourself in a "trance" and do Werner's bidding for
him?
I don't recall any techniques that I ever used from est at home. I already
was meditating twice daily, and that was good enough for me.
The headache technique was interesting, but I rarely got headaches.
As a married man, I usually give them. {;~D
Clearly, I met people that appeared to be "brainwashed" into believing that
Werner Erhard was "the bravest, kindest, warmest, most wonderful human being
(they've) ever known in (their) life."
I just didn't see him that way.
Queen of hearts, gotta go!!!
Eldonbraun
I was convinced to take the basic Lifespring course by people who had
done that. Then they (I'm talking about four of them) later did
Landmark courses after Lifespring folded. They knew Lifespring was
derivative, and they told me it was pretty much the same thing with
some variations.
And yes, I did think this was true of Lifespring. They were selling it
as a religious movement and recruiting people to save the world with
their trance act. I thought the followup procedures constituted a snarl
of fascist bullshit designed to work pretty much the way Enric
described it. But I wasn't a virgin at the time, so I just disengaged.
They did waste some postage sending me stuff in the mail after that,
but they stopped when I told them it was useless.
Caligari
So I gather from what you write, that you consider those who
uncriticaly believe in est/LE ideas as stupid. Naivette being a form
of stupidity. If so, what does that say about the Forum and other LE
courses for children and teenagers? Should those mostly without adult
knowledge and sophistication take courses making inflated and probably
dishonest claims? Should they be subjected to the harm that comes to a
percentage of those who take what is claimed to heart?
-- Enric
Tex
But they did not put you in a trance.
And you saw right through the manipulation.
est was so hot in the early 80s they hardly talked about inviting guests
during the Training.
they new they'd "get you" in the Graduate Seminars.
Saying that, only a small percentage of "Graduates" actually brought guest
to their seminars.
I never invited any. If I wanted my friends to know about it I told them.
I did have a couple of freinds come to some Special Guest Seminars.
they were huge, 400-500 people, in Boston at the time.
they were helpd in the John Hancock Hall in Boston. They were much more
impersonal, less "captive," than the smaller guest seminars at graduate
seminars.
People bought it, but not because they were hypnotized to.
People want to BELIEVE in something.
Most good "marketers" know how to take advantage of this.
Tex
Not stupid, but as you point out, naive. Naiveté being more a form of
ignorance or lack of experience.
Certainly some people embraced such concepts as enrollment uncritically. But
I met some very smart people who did so, the wanted to BELIEVE!!
> Naiveté being a form of stupidity. If so, what does that say about the
> Forum and other LE
> courses for children and teenagers? Should those mostly without adult
> knowledge and sophistication take courses making inflated >and probably
> dishonest claims? Should they be subjected to the harm that comes to a
> percentage of those who take what is claimed to heart?
Excellent questions.
The inflated and often dishonest claims are part of the problem I have with
the whole thing.
That is why I put Landmark into the category of religion for some, but not
all participants.
the contrived "shares" by those trained in "enrollment" is where I got "off
the boat," so to speak.
But when Charlene suggested that members of my GSLP make up stories to
"move, touch and inspire" participants to bring guest to the post-training
of the est Training she was leading, hypnosis wasn't involved. And none of
the people in my GSLP would do as she suggested.
It was a bad selling job on her part.
I know of four people who took the Children's Forum. Two of them thought it
was flakey bullshit that Dad got them involved in. The other 2 seemed
neutral about it, and didn't seem harmed by it.
One graduated from University of Vermont recently and is doing very well in
the world of finance and banking, the other graduated from Boston College
and is doing well.
I'm against inflated dishonest claims, whether it is by Landmark or someone
peddling salvation for the after-life.
>
> -- Enric
>
elle...@hotmail.com
Tex wrote:
> People bought it, but not because they were hypnotized to.
> People want to BELIEVE in something.
> Most good "marketers" know how to take advantage of this.
Just substitute the words "suggestion," "influence," and "persuasion"
for "hypnosis."
Those plus a coordinated, scripted, formulaic, and covert set of tricks
and tactics are what LGATs like Landmark use to reel in and capture the
imaginations (and pocketbooks) of enough people to keep themselves in
business.
They don't expect to fool the majority of people who show up, only
enough to keep themselves employed. Why is this such a stretch for
you, "Tex?"
Ellen
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153946619.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tex wrote:
>
>> People bought it, but not because they were hypnotized to.
>> People want to BELIEVE in something.
>> Most good "marketers" know how to take advantage of this.
>
>
>
> Just substitute the words "suggestion," "influence," and "persuasion" for
> "hypnosis."
That's a pretty broad substitution Ellen.
Enric did supply an APA definition.
It was much narrower in scope than the vague terms "suggestion," influence,"
and "persuasion."
>
> Those plus a coordinated, scripted, formulaic, and covert set of tricks
> and tactics are what LGATs like Landmark use to reel in and capture the
> imaginations (and pocketbooks) of enough people to keep themselves in
> business.
Have you been to a Special Intor to the Forum recently?
I have. It was pretty straight forward. The Forum Leader even went over the
"rackets" part of the Forum.
The bullshit as I saw it was the "sharing" of some of the "enrollment
trainees."
But it was transparent. And a couple of them were very sincere. Others were,
in my humble opinion, making shit up! {:~D
They rambled about nothing. If they were making a living as salesmen/women
they'd starve to death.
>
> They don't expect to fool the majority of people who show up, only
> enough to keep themselves employed. Why is this such a stretch for you,
> "Tex?"
Ellen, I'm cynical, but just not as cynical as you.
I've met too many well-adjusted, successful people that have told me they
got a lot out of est or the Forum to discount it out of hand.
Sometimes people provide a service and get payed for it Ellen.
I just read a whole lot of marketing hype about a set of golf clubs I just
bought. Tom Watson, golf legend, plays these clubs on the Champions Tour.
I'm hypnotizing myself as we speak into believing they will enhance my game.
Fact of the matter is, it's my swing that will make these clubs work or
fail.
>
>
>
> Ellen
>
HAPPYsamurai
> Tex wrote:
>
> > I went back to school after I took est.
> > And I didn't participate in est after about a year, and never while I was
> > going to school.
> > I guess they "hypnotized" me differently.
>
>
>
> Oh gee, "Tex,"
>
this would have counteracted anybrainwashing
he already had a PRIORITY bonding goin on that would have overridden
the effects
any endorphin release would have been percieced as attributed to the
girlfriend not the course
8 )
Eldonbraun
Ellen, like any marketeers (hello Glam?), they hope to maximize their
reach and profitability as much as possible. They expect to fool (or
influence) as many people who show up as they can. They want the
highest possible percentage of converts and free salespeople. They
study how to achieve these goals without alienating tooo many people
and causing a backlash.
Message from Maslow and Watts; tactics from Skinner, derived from
Pavlov. End result: hypocrisy. Salient example: The Hunger Project.
>
> Ellen
elle...@hotmail.com
HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> seriously if he was doin the course to get it on with his girlfriend
> this would have counteracted anybrainwashing
>
> he already had a PRIORITY bonding goin on that would have overridden
> the effects
>
> any endorphin release would have been percieced as attributed to the
> girlfriend not the course
>
> 8 )
You're pulling my leg, aren'tcha, HAP. I assert it might have doubly
or triply reinforced the bonds, or even in some strange way fused or
burned the thing into his brain if they piggy-backed their crap*la onto
his sex-drive. I'll betcha there aren't many better ways to make a
prospect ~become one~ with the product, which is why Weener sent out so
many females to rope in the males (ones with wallets).
Ellen
Eldonbraun
Not to speak for Hap in any way, but you do know the history of the
Children of God and the "flirty fishing" routine they used, don't you?
;-)
The Church of Scientology also used to do the same thing in reverse.
They put the handsomest young men on the streetcorner, offering
personality tests to female passersby, and sent some of them around the
country to sign up lonely women with large liquid assets. So at least
you can't say they were sexist. Whatever brought in the money.
>
>
> Ellen
Tex
<elle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154013717.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
My girlfriend at the time was minimally involved.
She took a couple of seminars, and as far as I know, she never "recruited"
anyone, other than me.
I moved 1,500 miles away 3 weeks after I took est.
I remained friends with her for some years, even helping her when she needed
surgery and came to Boston for treatment.
She did warn me about getting involved in assisting.
I didn't heed her warning, and found out what she was talking about
first-hand.
>
>
> Ellen
>
Caligari
This tends to happen with inferior products. The ultimate inferior
product is Landmark's where there is no product (or hypnotic techniques
and a mishmash of religious-philosophical ideas masquerading as a
produt), only hyperbole. There's probably an inverse relationship to
the quality of the product and the accuracy of the marketing. For
Intel, Google, Amazon, etc. marketing is often from the quality of the
product itself and accurately informing interested target markets.
Marketing can be valuable and worthy when it correctly informs those of
interest in the product. Sopme online bloggers are now writing on
ethics, making companies transparent, focusing on serving the customer.
Have a look at marketer Tara Hunt's blog:
http://www.horsepigcow.com/index.html
-- Enric
> >
> > Ellen
Eldonbraun
I did. I find her terribly self-involved, utterly pretentious, and
horrifically irrelevant to anything that might interest me in a
meaningful way. But maybe that's just my dis-taste in rhetoric.
Not that her ideas are disagreeable; it's just that she can't express
them coherently.
>
> -- Enric
>
>
> > >
> > > Ellen
Caligari
Hehe, I agree to some extent.
-- Enric
> >
> > -- Enric
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Ellen
Tex
Then why did you use her as a reference?
I thought it was written by someone in high school.
Caligari
I know her and I think she's trying; i.e., looking for new ways to
market that benefit the consumer. Though I don't think Tara thinks
through thoroughly (lota th's there ;)) her ideas and expression in
writing.
-- Enric
Eldonbraun
Well, I'm a literary snob anyway, and I do agree with her basic ideas
if only she could express them objectively and coherently. Maybe she
should try the memoir genre and talk about her feelings as opposed to
anything outside her immediate subjective reality.
This is not meant as an insult, but as a definition of her perceptual
scope.