Art Lover meaning??
Guinness
have a quick question. Ive been listening to the song Art Lover off of
GTPWTW for a few years now and just now got the idea to ask what other
people think its about. Im not quite sure... Somebody help me out
please?!
Todd Lowenstein
I think it is one of my least favorite Kinks songs. On the surface, it
sounds like it is about a pedophile (spelling). Sorry, Ray, but that is
not a topic I even want to hear about. It caused me a great deal of
embarrassment when The Kinks were on Saturday Night Live and I was at my
girl friend's house. She called her parents over to see them and I
silently prayed "Please, not Art Lover". Guess what they played.
Anyway, maybe others get something out of this song, but I really don't.
Another "embarrassing" song is on the Singles Collection released last
year, The Shirt. Very crude and direct in parts (make that "private"
parts). I can see Ray clowning around with lyrics like this, and they
would be cool if someone unearthed them for a "bootleg", but it sucks as
deliberately released song, if you ask my opinion (which no one did. But
what the hey).
Well, that about wraps up my comments on probably the only Kinks related
songs that I loathe. What is that, one tenth of a percent of Ray's work?
Thanks for the other 99.9%, Ray. You, too, Dave.
Todd
Kurt Ackerman
> sounds like it is about a pedophile (spelling). Sorry, Ray, but that is
> not a topic I even want to hear about.
---
"Art Lover" is about a divorced man who is not allowed to visit his
children, and can only watch them playing on the playground without
making contact with them. Ray's first wife got the courts to forbid
Ray from seeing his daughters (who are now grown women), and that's
what the song is about. Divorced fathers will relate.
I find it hard to understand how this song could be mistaken for
anything else. With lines like "Come to daddy", and "It's just a
substitute of what they've taken from me", and the gentle way
Ray sings it, I think it's very clear.
Aside from the first line of "When I Turn Out The Living Room
Light", I can find no mean-spiritedness in any of Ray's songs.
- Jersey Shore
TeddyB1018
>"Art Lover" is about a divorced man who is not allowed to visit his
>children, and can only watch them playing on the playground without
>making contact with them. Ray's first wife got the courts to forbid
>Ray from seeing his daughters (who are now grown women), and that's
>what the song is about. Divorced fathers will relate.
>
>I find it hard to understand how this song could be mistaken for
>anything else. With lines like "Come to daddy", and "It's just a
>substitute of what they've taken from me", and the gentle way
>Ray sings it, I think it's very clear.
Absolutely right. And it's one of the most beautiful songs Ray's written in
the last twenty years.
Todd Lowenstein
>> I think it is one of my least favorite Kinks songs. On the surface, it
>> sounds like it is about a pedophile (spelling). Sorry, Ray, but that is
>> not a topic I even want to hear about.
>
>---
>
>children, and can only watch them playing on the playground without
>making contact with them. Ray's first wife got the courts to forbid
>Ray from seeing his daughters (who are now grown women), and that's
>what the song is about. Divorced fathers will relate.
>
>I find it hard to understand how this song could be mistaken for
>anything else. With lines like "Come to daddy", and "It's just a
>substitute of what they've taken from me", and the gentle way
>Ray sings it, I think it's very clear.
>
>Light", I can find no mean-spiritedness in any of Ray's songs.
>
>- Jersey Shore
You may be right about what the song was INTENDED to be about, but my
point is that it comes across to the casual listener as being about some
pervert. Ray's approach to the lyrics is that he all but "drools" over
the children at the park "Your white skin, like porcelain, etc."), not a
self reflective "gosh, I wish I was here my my kid." And the lines like
"I'll give you some candy" had to be deliberate for a pervert imagery.
You may say that Ray is the master of double meanings, but then you would
be agreeing that Ray put the "Flasher in a rain coat" deliberately into
the song.
Over the years, Ray has even made some comments about the "pervert"
interpretation of the song (song intro at concerts and I think an article
or two). Probably (definitely, in my opinion) said in jest, but shows you
that the pervert imagery is one that he put there.
Ray likes to put "evil" imagery into his works. Look at the video
"Return to Waterloo". Is the traveler a rapist or does he simply look
like the composite Police drawing? In the MTV interview, he says he likes
to explore the darker side of people, like he did with Mr. Flash of
Preservation.
By the way, I don't see mean-spiritedness in "When I Turn off the Living
Room Light". Another case where deliberately crafting some lyrics cause
people to get opposite meanings out of the song, hmm?
Todd
Todd Lowenstein
>
>>"Art Lover" is about a divorced man who is not allowed to visit his
>>children, and can only watch them playing on the playground without
>>making contact with them. Ray's first wife got the courts to forbid
>>Ray from seeing his daughters (who are now grown women), and that's
>>what the song is about. Divorced fathers will relate.
>>
>>I find it hard to understand how this song could be mistaken for
>>anything else. With lines like "Come to daddy", and "It's just a
>>substitute of what they've taken from me", and the gentle way
>>Ray sings it, I think it's very clear.
>Absolutely right. And it's one of the most beautiful songs Ray's written in
>the last twenty years.
I know a lot of Kinks fans feel that way. Although I don't like it
because I see the "Flasher in a raincoat" more than the "sad Dad", I am
glad that it is appreciated by others. After all, I am a tremendous Ray
Davies fan! I have yet to see a song singled out as being a clunker that
several people have not vehemently defended as being excellent.
Todd
odsie
>>anything else.
I think it can be very easily interpreted as being about something else...
but the skillful and deliberately provocative use of ambiguity is exactly what
makes the song so great !
A song about a father who has lost his children could easily become maudlin in
less skillful hands, but Ray makes us wonder...he makes us consider the
situation of the narrator and draw our own conclusions.
Personally, I *choose* to see the song as a tender brokenhearted lament for
those lost children..... but having seen Ray's "flasher in a raincoat" act
I wouldn't bet that my interpretation is the correct one.
>Another "embarrassing" song is on the Singles Collection released last
>year, The Shirt. Very crude and direct in parts (make that "private"
>parts).
What's your objection to THE SHIRT, Todd ?
I confess that I'm a bit dismayed by the increasing violence and ugliness of
Ray's vision in recent works.... but THE SHIRT isn't one of those that
particularly worries me.
I see it as a comic murder mystery.
yes, violent again.... but "embarrassing"??
-odsie
Czeskleba
Hmm, maybe "Art Lover" is about a father who has had his children taken away
because he sexually abused them? Then both interpretations would be right...
mozart...@my-dejanews.com
czes...@aol.com (Czeskleba) wrote:
>
> Hmm, maybe "Art Lover" is about a father who has had his children taken away
> because he sexually abused them? Then both interpretations would be right...
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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dawg
easy to understand the drives and passions unleashed by the human
soul...what claim is beauty to age...it is what one does with force and
power that defines good and evil...
and as to understanding that all human life is unusual looking in the cold
light is indeed forgivness...
bob...@erols.com
>
> Todd quoted:
> >"I was humbled, humiliated, castrated"
> >
> >"She brought out the testosterone in me"
> >
> >Reading these words, it's not so bad. But to me, they came across a bit
> >lame when you hear the song.
>
> haha...yeah, I guess you're right.
>
> I sorta think those lines are funny in the way that they show how screwed-up and
> awkward the narrator is.....but coming from a man who's words use to flow so
> naturally and beautifully they are grating.
>
Well, I've never heard this song, but I still think I know what you're
talking about with the lyrics. To be honest, I get the same feeling with some
of the songs Ray wrote for his solo show too, like "Art School Babes". They
have the same forced feeling to my ears.
-- Bob G.
Steve Harris
: Hmm, maybe "Art Lover" is about a father who has had his children taken away
: because he sexually abused them? Then both interpretations would be right...
I don't think you have to go so far. When a parent loses all custodial rights,
the judge has declared that the person is unfit to be a parent. That's a hell
of a value judgement. This song is beautifully ambiguous. Only Ray does this
so well.
I have to admit that since I became a parent, I've lost all sense of humor
about this area and tend tp skip over the song.
Steve Harris
Colorado Springs
Beingself
I work in an elementary school and sometimes put kinks discs in the apple
computers.....all I can say, is thanks for the advice as to knowing what not to
play, guess I'll stick to Muswell Hillbillies.
Todd Lowenstein
>>Another "embarrassing" song is on the Singles Collection released last
>>year, The Shirt. Very crude and direct in parts (make that "private"
>>parts).
>
>What's your objection to THE SHIRT, Todd ?
>
>I confess that I'm a bit dismayed by the increasing violence and ugliness of
>Ray's vision in recent works.... but THE SHIRT isn't one of those that
>particularly worries me.
> I see it as a comic murder mystery.
>yes, violent again.... but "embarrassing"??
I hope your happy!!! Forcing me to print the lyrics. Really, ODSie!
"I was humbled, humiliated, castrated"
"She brought out the testosterone in me"
Reading these words, it's not so bad. But to me, they came across a bit
lame when you hear the song. Not embarassing like "Art Lover", but
certainly not a song I would play for anyone other than a hard core Kinks
fan.
Also, I thought The Shirt was just silly. I hate to sound like every song
has to be realistic, but my imagination gets stretched too far to think
the blood stain could lead to a conviction. So, to me, it sounds like Ray
wanted to just end the song and this was his rough draft (which would be
okay as a bootleg demo, but not a released song).
Todd
Todd Lowenstein
>
>Hmm, maybe "Art Lover" is about a father who has had his children taken away
>because he sexually abused them? Then both interpretations would be right...
There you go! That's even worse!! (Very funny!)
Todd
Todd Lowenstein
Stay clear of A Little Bit of Abuse, too, then. That one is an absolute
gem, though.
Todd
NicePace
To me, what makes "The Shirt" so unlistenable are two things: Ray's
unsuccessful attempt at a jazz vocal (I applaud his courage in making the
attempt, but it doesn't work); and the way the story line of the song swings
from the narrator's unsuccessful attempt to impress a woman to being tried for
murder. Hey, I'm glad the song exists; it shows Ray is still trying new ideas
in his music. Just because this one falls flat doesn't mean he shouldn't keep
on trying.
Joanne
odsie
>gem, though.
I agree, Todd.
ABUSE works because Ray is able to detach himself from the violence.
He remains on the sideline in a more palatable position.
When he involves himself in the action as he does in
ANIMAL it makes me feel sick.
ANIMAL is a lovely song as long as I don't think about what he's saying.
-odsie
odsie
>"I was humbled, humiliated, castrated"
>
>"She brought out the testosterone in me"
>
>Reading these words, it's not so bad. But to me, they came across a bit
>lame when you hear the song.
haha...yeah, I guess you're right.
I sorta think those lines are funny in the way that they show how screwed-up and
awkward the narrator is.....but coming from a man who's words use to flow so
naturally and beautifully they are grating.
Joanne wrote:
>To me, what makes "The Shirt" so unlistenable are two things: Ray's
>unsuccessful attempt at a jazz vocal (I applaud his courage in making the
>attempt, but it doesn't work); and the way the story line of the song swings
>from the narrator's unsuccessful attempt to impress a woman to being tried for
>murder. Hey, I'm glad the song exists; it shows Ray is still trying new ideas
>in his music.
I totally agree, Joanne.
THE SHIRT is a mess.
A sloppy wildly creative comic adventure that has no real focus.
A new idea...a noble attempt...but it's disjointedness makes it seem that Ray
needs to get his head together before attempting anything so ambitious.
-odsie
mike weber
said, on Fri, 02 Oct 1998 09:11:00 -0400,
>Aside from the first line of "When I Turn Out The Living Room
>Light", I can find no mean-spiritedness in any of Ray's songs.
>
I -don't find the opening line of "Light: mean-spirited; like the
comic Africans in the Dr Doolittle books, it's the attitude of its
time.
Now, if you want mean-spiritedness, try "Dedicated Follower",
"Well-Respected Man", "Dandy" and "Plastic Man"... not to mention
"Prince of the Punks"
==
"History doesn't always repeat itself... sometimes
it just screams 'Why don't you listen when I'm talking
to you?' and lets fly with a club." JWC,Jr.
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
mike weber
08:25:01 GMT,
>
>Hmm, maybe "Art Lover" is about a father who has had his children taken away
>because he sexually abused them? Then both interpretations would be right...
This is a theme that is touched on in the film of -Return to
Waterloo-, in which we are given several possible interpretations of
who The Traveller is.
Rdfno1
Joanne wrote:
>To me, what makes "The Shirt" so unlistenable are two things: Ray's
>unsuccessful attempt at a jazz vocal (I applaud his courage in making the
>attempt, but it doesn't work); and the way the story line of the song swings
>from the narrator's unsuccessful attempt to impress a woman to being tried
>for murder.
The first time I listened to this song on CD, I had a major case of the "huh
??? what ??" I played it again thinking I had missed the cohesive part that
tied everything together.
Guess not. I'm glad to see it isn't just me who found this song hard to fathom.
Leslie
Geoff Lewis
I have to say I like "The Shirt". I may be repeating myself here, but to me
it invokes one of my favourite movie genres - British B-movies of the early
sixties. They were in black and white, had dodgy story lines, dodgy
dialogue, dodgy sets and dodgy acting, often from people who were later to
become well-known TV and movie actors. I don't know why, but I really like
those old flicks. The incidental music was always very much in the style
used in "The Shirt".
My guess is that Ray used to see those pictures.
Sure, the whole story isn't there in the song - you have to create your own,
but I think that's how it is with most Kinks songs - they work on the
listener's own imagination. That's how I like them to work on me, anyway.
I like this shirt, I want it.
- Geoff
odsie
>I have to say I like "The Shirt". I may be repeating myself here, but to me
>it invokes one of my favourite movie genres - British B-movies of the early
>sixties. They were in black and white, had dodgy story lines, dodgy
>dialogue, dodgy sets and dodgy acting
Yeah, Geoff, THE SHIRT is a dodgy song all right !
But I see your point.
I think there's a bit of the "screwball comedy" genre in THE SHIRT, too.
It swings crazily from shirt to seduction to murder...and though I think it's a
mess I kinda like it , too.
Not among my all-time faves....but it's ok.
(except for that jazz bit)
-odsie
olga....@mail.which.net
> bein...@aol.com (Beingself) wrote:
> >
> >I work in an elementary school and sometimes put kinks discs in the
apple
> >computers.....all I can say, is thanks for the advice as to knowing
what not to
> >play, guess I'll stick to Muswell Hillbillies.
>
> Stay clear of A Little Bit of Abuse, too, then. That one is an
absolute
> gem, though.
>
> Todd
Call me naive (naive), but I never thought Art Lover to be other than
it sounds
(to me), about a father who has no access to his children. This song
came out when
I was a Mum, and new emotions had come into play. i cried when I first
heard it,
imagining how I would feel separated from my own children... and it
still has a
profound effect on me...
..the singer has to distance himself from his child, and think of her as
something
he can't touch...like a piece of art. he has to learn to look at her
dispassionately. He can't take her home. The child he is looking at
reminds him of
his daughter: "she';s just a substitute for what's been taken from me".
Olga
Czeskleba
>This song is beautifully ambiguous. Only Ray does this
>so well.
My favorite Ray ambiguousity has always been "I'm glad I'm a man and so is
Lola". Is the narrator saying Lola is glad he (the narrator) is a man, or is
he saying that Lola is glad that she herself is a man? What a wonderfully
constructed, ambiguous sentence.
Czeskleba
>Stay clear of A Little Bit of Abuse, too, then. That one is an absolute
>gem, though
I like the fact that Ray wrote a song about domestic violence. I don't like
the fact that he seems to be blaming the victim for being in the situation.
Beingself
"Smashed, Blocked" by John's Children (with Marc Bolan) in about '67 and on
"Vol. 7: British Invasion" on Rhino is one you would find interesting too, but
then, I guess alot of other songs would fall in this area as well.
tom
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mike weber
14:20:05 GMT,
:
>
>"Smashed, Blocked" by John's Children (with Marc Bolan) in about '67 and on
>"Vol. 7: British Invasion" on Rhino is one you would find interesting too, but
>then, I guess alot of other songs would fall in this area as well.
>
--
mike weber
07:49:44 GMT,
:
Actually, you miss anohterr aspect -- and more nearly probabale from
the lyric -- is the narrator glad that "So is Lola" ((i.e., Lola is
also a man)), or is Lola glad ((that the narrator is a man))?
Todd Lowenstein
>
>>Stay clear of A Little Bit of Abuse, too, then. That one is an absolute
>>gem, though
>
>I like the fact that Ray wrote a song about domestic violence. I don't like
>the fact that he seems to be blaming the victim for being in the situation.
I don't think that Ray is "blaming" the vicitim. Rather, he
describes the situation the victim is in from the victim/friend point of
view. Like so many situations in life, it is so easy to solve other
people's problems (but we struggle with our own). Asking (and
answering) "why does she stay?" can come across as "blaming" because that
option is just sooo unacceptable to most of us. But there are some women
out there that do stay and that is what this song is about. It is an
observation, not a judgment (IMHO).
Great song, huh?
Todd
Czeskleba
>Try "He Hit Me (and It Felt Like A Kiss)" by Goffin & King...
Wasn't that one a Phil Spector composition, not Goffin/King? Phil Spector is
one screwed up guy.
mike weber
07:03:28 GMT,
:
>
>>Try "He Hit Me (and It Felt Like A Kiss)" by Goffin & King...
>
>Wasn't that one a Phil Spector composition, not Goffin/King? Phil Spector is
>one screwed up guy.
Nope. Goffin and King. And Carole King was, i believe, the lyrics
half...
I think Spector produced it, though.
Czeskleba
>Nope. Goffin and King. And Carole King was, i believe, the lyrics
>half...
>
Wow. I hope she intended the lyrics ironically...
Czeskleba
>I don't think that Ray is "blaming" the vicitim. Rather, he
>describes the situation the victim is in from the victim/friend point of
>view. Like so many situations in life, it is so easy to solve other
>people's problems (but we struggle with our own). Asking (and
>answering) "why does she stay?" can come across as "blaming" because that
>option is just sooo unacceptable to most of us. But there are some women
>out there that do stay and that is what this song is about. It is an
>observation, not a judgment (IMHO).
The line "there just ain't no excuse, you keep going back..." sounds somewhat
judgmental/blaming toward the victim to me. And the question "why stay with
him?" presupposes that the woman in the song has the power to leave but chooses
not to... when in fact most women don't "choose" to stay in a domestic violence
situation. They are unable to leave because of economic dependence or
legitimate fear for their lives. OJ is not an unusual case... most men who
murder their wives do it when she is trying to leave...
Of course, Ray deserves much credit for even attempting to deal with this topic
in song in the less-enlightened days of 1981...
Will Dockery
>
> If someone writes a poem about incest or abuse, should I be worried about them?
>
> A poem is not always about the writer. It may be expressing personal opinion or observation. Do not jump to the conclusion that the writer is experiencing / has experienced the situation that is described in the poem.
>
> Please do try to learn the difference between the narrator and the author.
Wonder what he'd think of Ray Davies' "Art Lover"?
--
Music & Poetry from Will Dockery:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery
foote...@gmail.com
> Hey, im a long time (long being relative to my lifespan) Kinks fan and
> have a quick question. Ive been listening to the song Art Lover off of
> GTPWTW for a few years now and just now got the idea to ask what other
> people think its about. Im not quite sure... Somebody help me out
> please?!
I remember buying this album when it came out (I was 13 at the time) and as the song played found the lyrics quite creepy. However, the song turned with the "Take you home but that could never be/ she's just a substitute for what's been taken from me" lines. From that point on it became clear that the song was about a divorced dad missing his daughter. Quite the emotional turn from a brilliant songwriter.
Yes, this guy would seem quite creepy if you saw him in the park watching kids - but if you knew his story you'd feel bad for him. He is watching another person's child play and missing what matter's most to him, because she has been taken away via divorce.