Thanks for those of you who replied to my last thread.
Here's another one! (my partner and I have just watched LSW)
The order of people into Cheryl Bains's house is:
1.) Valerie Craven
2.) Donald Phillipson (whom Valerie sees when she leaves)
3.) Sheila Phillipson (who sees Cheryl Bains after she's been killed)
All of which begs the question - how did Sheila Phillipson see David
Acum waiting for Valerie Craven if she had already gone (she wouldn't
hang around in Oxford).
I have this feeling that they do it to stop people guess the killer
when they are watching. this is the only reason I can give. I don't
think that helps much.
I have this feeling that they do it to confuss people when they are
arguably, the finest TV series ever, and you want to twit around with
plot points you don't understand?
get a life and/or move on to Star Trek
"Steve" <scro...@zoom.co.uk> wrote in message
I think we can do without that previous comment, since it is a
discussion group, and if you don't want to take part then don't!
I'll have to re-watch the episode to get this bit right, but I got the
impression that the various visits to the house occurred within a short
space of time. This in itself could be considered a plot hole though
the older lady over the road, who sees Sheila, may have only started
looking out of the window because she was being nosey at all the
visitors going into the house over the road!
As Valerie leaves the house and starts to walk down the road she sees
Donald arrive, and therefore she stops to see him from a distance. It's
dark so Donald doesn't see her. I assume that Donald doesn't stay for
long and Valerie also stays there for a while to see how long he is. It
is hinted that he is not there for long, because there was no love lost
between Donald and Baines, so there would have not been much other chat
If Valerie had stayed there looking at the house, David would have
remained in the car, because it was parked someway from the house. As
Sheila cycled towards the house, she probably would have spotted David
Acum sitting in the car, but not Valerie because she was still "hiding"
on the pavement. It is not inconceivable to consider that she was
thinking of going back to Baines' house, but decided not to when she
saw a third visitor.
It isn't clear whether Sheila sees David when she's on her way to
Baines' house or coming back.
Anyone got any other CONSTRUCTIVE views on this?
Keep those plot holes coming!
I have a CONSTRUCTIVE idea, let's discuss the high quality of this series
and leave the plot hole twitting to the comic book crowd where it belongs
I agree with you. Morse is a high quality drama, I also agree that
Steve has a point, there are plot holes in the drama, and they should
be asked about. I love the fact that Morse is 2 hours long because it
means that you really get into the story and you get to know the
I remember when Morse was first shown on TV, some of my colleagues at work
were discussing it at lunchtime and they were united in feeling that "two
hours was too long". I pointed out that they'd happily sit through a film at
the cinema that was two or more hours long. "Ah, but that's a film. Two
hours is too long for a television programme".
Attention spans of goldfish, every one of them!
In this particular case I agree that Morse is exemplary - I wouldn't be
bothering to watch the entire TV series on DVD if I didn't think so.
My partner (who is very into crime fiction) is the one spotting these
potential inconsistencies, whereas I am looking for answers which
explain these and support my assertion of Morse's quality.
[the other thing which really grates for her is Morse's constant
chasing after female witnesses/suspects etc. Not much I can do about
Sorry ot have been out of touch--but I'm glad everyone is discussing
the things finer or not about Morse.
Poolnuz--while we adore having new folk on here, I don't think you need
to belittle anyone who makes a legit post. I agree Morse is fine
television. But it doesn't mean that it is perfection. The point of
this whole NG is to share and discuss anything that keeps us coming
here to visit and discuss all things Morse or Morse related. In that
respect this is all very, very good!
Steve, I haven't commented much on these plot holes because I know
there are many of the cyber pub folk here who are more savvy with the
telly epis. If it were book related, that's more my forte. If it's
something Colin Dexter can answer, I can try and get his thoughts on
But when it comes to the tv plots--though some were based on his ideas,
or books, all of the screenplays were written by different people than
I'm thinking these ideas and observations on these epi's make for
interesting reading. I hope you and your partner keep the intriguing,
thought provoking observations coming, including your slant on them.
BEST TO ALL OF YO!!!!!!
So going slightly out of this topic, do you prefer the Morse of the
books or the TV (particularly thinking of the earlier books, because I
felt the later books were more similar to the TV morse)?
Book-Morse is a bit more seedy and has flaws that I can identify with - not
that I'd go so far as to peruse porno mags... oh no, not me!!! I can
imagine Book-Morse giving Lewis a dig in the ribs and guffawing "Cor, look
at the size of them" which TV-Morse would never do in a million years.
Remember also Book-Morse's fondness with visiting Soho clubs - LSW,
Book-Morse isn't quite such a failure with women. He ends up in a "legover
situation" with several women who he meets while investigating cases - Ruth
Rawlinson (SOATD), Nurse Nessie (TWID) and Ellie (alluded to in several of
the later books) spring to mind. OK, so there were very strong hints of a
relationship between TV-Morse and Adele Cecil - ironically Book-Morse
couldn't stand her! And of course, Grayling Russell was just introduced to
tease the viewer into thinking Morse would at last get involved in a
Maybe TV-Morse is more vulnerable and a bit more gauche - and to hide this,
he's more aloof with Lewis. But he still has a sense of humour: remember the
scene in one of the episodes where Lewis is being very coy about two
characters who'd been making love - he referred to it as "when they were...
you know", which Morse teased him mercilessly about. But somehow I can't
imagine TV-Morse have a lewd thought, whereas I'm sure Book-Morse had them
from time to time - remember the scene in LSW where he meets Mrs Acum (or
was it Valerie...) when she's wearing only a figure-hugging dressing gown.
I'm sure that Book-Morse's predilections are light-years away from Colin
Dexter's. Having said that, Dexter does make Morse a diabetic and hints at
the beginnings of deafness, both of which he (Dexter) does suffer from. But
it'd take a braver man than me (I?) to ask him where Morse's tastes
originated and whether they might be autobiographical...
TV-Morse's musical tastes are slightly more mainstream than Book-Morse's -
probably because Wagner's music might have less appeal to the majority of
viewers than better-known composers' music.
The books have the advantage that they allow scope for various word puzzles
such as the endless analysis of the poem in TWTTW and the coded messages in
letters in LBTW and TSWONQ, as well as the three contrasting styles of book
that Morse reads while he's in hospital in TWID - smutty pulp fiction that
always promises more than it delivers; flowery but still very readable
description of the canal murder; barbed-wire, dry-as-dust,
utterly-impenetrable prose in the book on criminology.
As to which I prefer - Book-Morse or TV-Morse? Very difficult to say. I
think the world would have been much poorer without either of them: they
emphasise different sides to his character.
This is just me, but I like Morse from the TV, because I am a John Thaw
fan, which is why I watched Morse! However Morse in the books is
likeable in his own way. I don't read the books enough really. however
i watch the TV Morse over and over again
Greetings...(pulls up a chair) It'a late, but I can't let this slide
by without replying...Personally? I've been a book fan, though Colin
laughs when I tell him at first I didn't care for the books. Had read
The Jewel That Was Ours. It read too much like a screenplay....then
LAst Seen Wearing came onPBS. Watched it and it bored me to tears.
LOL. It's still probably my least fave of telly epi's but book wise, I
have GREAT fun reading it. Anyway, I then read the book of LSW and
loved it and read all of the others. Only then did I start watching the
I like the books because they allow you to get in the mind of the
character and see how his thought processes work. You feel what he
feels and see how he reacts and thinks of things. In TSWONQ, Morse is
so funny when we know what he's thinking about the woman examiner and
how he talks to her. Same in TSOAnnex 3.'
BookMorse was a more relaistsitc look at what a bachelor kinda guy is
like. Always looking the attractive single women over in hopes that
she might be something more, or not overlooking the occasional married
woman if she appeals (referred to in TDOJ) . I htink it's funny to see
the eartheir side of Morse in those early books...like inLSW when he
and Lewis are discussing doing something 'bad' and Lewis is saying
something like 'as in taking hte sgar?" and Mors eguffawing and er,
well...but it's guy talk and Mors eis all guy.
A few times did Thaw let that side ofMors hsow a bit int he telly
epi's--Think it was in the Rising Sun one, when the lady agent leaves
the office of the master while MOrse's eyes follow her progress out the
door with more than a polite glance. lol.
I think I read once that Thaw was put off by the 'earthier' side of the
early book Morse because he didn't want to play that kind of character.
But when he saw the music and poetry and things that he too loved in
life, he decided to give it a shot, but it was left up to him how much
of Morse's 'other' side he'd show in the films. When that wsa clear,
he then decided to take on the role. At least, that's how I read it in
I like them both, Wotan, but I veer closer to the book Morse and liked
the telly morse best when it ran parallel to the novels.
The music in the tv epi's was again, like the screenplays, the
products of many minds in the choosing of the music. Consideration was
also given over to cost of music production and what would appeal to
the most viewers and still reflect on the character of Morse.
Book music was the truer reflection of the taste of ONE man, Dexter. I
once did a piece on the music of the Morse novels.
Morse, esp. book Morse is true to Dexter's personality than one would
think. Unless you write fiction too--then you'll know what I mean.
Even COlin says often that unles you're completely megatalented and
blessed in creative abilities, most characters in one's books tend to
reflect a lot of the author that created them.
If you're around Mr. Dexter very much, you can't HELP but see the
Morselike qualities in him except that he's not stingy at the pub, and
has a lighter sense of humor and a slightly kinder heart. lol.
Thanks and it's very, very late...comments and observations?