In case you were wondering how my election turned out...
Tian
Percent Votes
CAROL BROUILLET 13.36% 397
DANA M. ST. GEORGE 13.33% 396
CAROLINE YACOUB 11.92% 354
TIAN HARTER 10.54% 313
WES ROLLEY 10.47% 311
ANDREA DOREY 9.66% 287
JIM DOYLE 8.92% 265
PETER MYERS 8.62% 256
GERALD S. GRAS 6.66% 198
ROB MEANS 6.53% 194
I expect the numbers to change a bit over the next few weeks as the rest
of the absentees get counted.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added my review of The Omnivore's Dilemma by M. Pollan.
Come down to my election night party after you vote. Details on my site.
Don Stockbauer
> Completed Precincts 1,113 of 1,113
> Percent Votes
> CAROL BROUILLET 13.36% 397
> DANA M. ST. GEORGE 13.33% 396
> CAROLINE YACOUB 11.92% 354
> TIAN HARTER 10.54% 313
> WES ROLLEY 10.47% 311
> ANDREA DOREY 9.66% 287
> JIM DOYLE 8.92% 265
> PETER MYERS 8.62% 256
> GERALD S. GRAS 6.66% 198
> ROB MEANS 6.53% 194
>
> I expect the numbers to change a bit over the next few weeks as the rest
> of the absentees get counted.
> --
> Latest change: Added my review of The Omnivore's Dilemma by M. Pollan.
> Come down to my election night party after you vote. Details on my site.
Well - you did a lot better than I did.
Don Stockbauer
attached to his fly zipper handle and also has a spoon tied to the
other end of the string, plus he has a second string which disappears
into his fly.
"Why do you have a string attached to your fly with accompanying
spoon, plus that second string", the customer asked?
"Oh, it's so that when I go to bathroom I can unzip my fly without
actually having to touch it, and I can use the second string to pull
out my penis since it's attached to the string, plus it gives a me a
convenient spoon to stir people's tea with. All very sanitary."
"But, er, well,... how do you-----get your manly organ of reproduction
back in your pants?"
"I use the spoon."
Tian
I didn't know you were running for something....
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest addition: pictures from my election night party last evening.
In case you were curious I came in 4th out of 10 running for 7 seats.
That got me elected by the Green Party voters to our County Council.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 4, 2:36 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Completed Precincts 1,113 of 1,113
> >> Percent Votes
> >> CAROL BROUILLET 13.36% 397
> >> DANA M. ST. GEORGE 13.33% 396
> >> CAROLINE YACOUB 11.92% 354
> >> TIAN HARTER 10.54% 313
> >> WES ROLLEY 10.47% 311
> >> ANDREA DOREY 9.66% 287
> >> JIM DOYLE 8.92% 265
> >> PETER MYERS 8.62% 256
> >> GERALD S. GRAS 6.66% 198
> >> ROB MEANS 6.53% 194
>
> >> I expect the numbers to change a bit over the next few weeks as the rest
> >> of the absentees get counted.
> >> --
> >> Tianhttp://tian.greens.org
> >> Latest change: Added my review of The Omnivore's Dilemma by M. Pollan.
> >> Come down to my election night party after you vote. Details on my site.
>
> > Well - you did a lot better than I did.
>
> I didn't know you were running for something....
>
My life.
Actually, I'm not, but my statement still holds - you did a lot better
in that race than I did (since I'm not running).
God, itz been a long day.
Don Stockbauer
I wonder if there's anything to this Global Brain thing?
Tian
I'd call what I did closer to walking, although I did go jogging more
times in the past few months than I had in years, and I also sprinted
for trains and busses a few times...
>
> God, itz been a long day.
Better luck with tomorrow...
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest addition: pictures from my election night party Tuesday evening.
Don Stockbauer
So you secured a seat. I thought by being # 4 you didn't get elected
to anything. So congrats! Now it's off to change the world.
Tian
You know those coins the laws of physics suck into the pink piggy bank?
They are still going to fall through the same slot, but now they are
going to fall with the added spice of having been dropped by an elected
politician. That's what I call "changing the world, one coin at a time."
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 11:40 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>> On Jun 4, 6:55 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>>>> On Jun 4, 2:36 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>
> >> Latest addition: pictures from my election night party Tuesday evening.
> >> In case you were curious I came in 4th out of 10 running for 7 seats.
> >> That got me elected by the Green Party voters to our County Council.
>
> > So you secured a seat. I thought by being # 4 you didn't get elected
> > to anything. So congrats! Now it's off to change the world.
>
> You know those coins the laws of physics suck into the pink piggy bank?
>
> They are still going to fall through the same slot, but now they are
> going to fall with the added spice of having been dropped by an elected
> politician. That's what I call "changing the world, one coin at a time."
Wow.
An elected politician.
It has quite a ring to it.
You've made your place in history.
Tian
As a tiny footnote, I can assure you.
BTW: Did I mention the shoes I wore to my election party were made in
Mountain View California? How is that for a footnote?
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Don Stockbauer
"Think shoes made locally, act to make global green solutions
instantiate" is the catchphrase of the day!
Don Stockbauer
His partner raised rabbits for a living.
Together they formed the dynamic team of "Fartsky and Hutch".
***********************
"An old Roman coin with "489 BC" on it gets plunked into the pink
piggy."
Don Stockbauer
sending their basic impulses and that of a human email, say 100
words. The latter is many, many levels higher.
Person 2 (Bolser) - I agree, but I am beginning to think that the
difference is unquantifiable. Just as you point out that the global
brain will be intractable for the humans that comprise it, the precise
physical and quantitative difference between the information
communicated between neurons and humans is not computable.
P1 - As in the alt.fan.hofstadter discussions, I agree, I think some
things are not quantifiable. I believe that line was used by Heard's
character in the movie "Mindwalk". I'd need to review it to be sure.
And all I have it on is an old moldy VHS tape. And what if planets
communicate via SETI/CETI? Then people become lumped into one, a
planet talking to a planet. Complexity shoots up again.
P2 - Perhaps... but would the planitary signal encompass the
complexity of the planet? (i.e. like this email encompasses the
complexity of my brain?).
P1 - I think cybernetic form stays the same as one goes up levels.The
increase of complexity would result from there being many, many
planets networked together. Sure, the details of individuals is lost
(although a message sent to another planet would have many memes
created by individuals). That is,the message would have to summarize
what all the inhabitants of the planet had to say, thus losing detail,
but all the messages sent around the galaxy would create a galactic
sized mind, which would be complex far beyond any one planet. Just as
one neuron in our brain is insignificant compared to the whole mind.
Levels:
neurons form a human mind
human minds form the Global Brain
Global Brains (ie, planetary intelligences) form a galactic brain
If time allows, galactic brains might form into a Universal brain.
So, over millions of years planets communicating may very well form an
internet spanning the galaxy. To get info on the whole galaxy you'd
only have to establish communication with thenearest node (planet)
that contains the galactic information,obviating having to communicate
across the whole galaxy. I guess. T
Don Stockbauer
donstockbauer *atsky* hotmail.com
Tian
I'm impressed that you managed to find a coin minted by people that
knew with some precision that Christ was not that many generations
down the road from them....
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > He had a terminal flatulence problem.
>
> > His partner raised rabbits for a living.
>
> > Together they formed the dynamic team of "Fartsky and Hutch".
>
> > ***********************
>
> > "An old Roman coin with "489 BC" on it gets plunked into the pink
> > piggy."
>
> I'm impressed that you managed to find a coin minted by people that
> knew with some precision that Christ was not that many generations
> down the road from them....
Yeah, remembered it from some old puzzle book.
So, how did they really date coins back then? Wuddunt it somethin
like "minted in the 3d year of Obama's reign", somethin like that?
Don Stockbauer
Don Stockbauer
Young girls
Young men
Soldiers
Graveyards
GO TO 5
Tian
That's how the Japanese do it. Maybe some of them did it "Years since
the big one" whatever that was.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 11:13 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>> He had a terminal flatulence problem.
> >>> His partner raised rabbits for a living.
> >>> Together they formed the dynamic team of "Fartsky and Hutch".
> >>> ***********************
> >>> "An old Roman coin with "489 BC" on it gets plunked into the pink
> >>> piggy."
> >> I'm impressed that you managed to find a coin minted by people that
> >> knew with some precision that Christ was not that many generations
> >> down the road from them....
>
> > Yeah, remembered it from some old puzzle book.
>
> > So, how did they really date coins back then? Wuddunt it somethin
> > like "minted in the 3d year of Obama's reign", somethin like that?
>
> That's how the Japanese do it. Maybe some of them did it "Years since
> the big one" whatever that was.
Makes more sense than "489 years before the advent of the coming
simplistic philosopher who will make scads of money for preachers in
the years after his messy death utilizing the "you have everything to
gain, and nothing to lose" fallacy." Can all that fit on a washer?
Don Stockbauer
> Subject: Re: Levels of Global brains
> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:24:49 -0500
>
> I wrote this for the 2001 IMDB FAQ, don't know I I sent it before?
> I would think one might have to have AI before a GB (Global Brain)?
>
> Al
(Al, as in "Albert", not AI, as in "Artificial Intelligence")
>
>
> Is HAL a Computer?
>
> The depiction of the HAL 9000 (Heuristically programmed Algorithmic
> Computer) in 2001 remains one of the films most eerie elements. For their
> description of artificial intelligence, Kubrick and Clarke only had the
> terminology and of the mid-1960s . At that time the prevailing concept
> expected AI to be a programmed computer. Thus the term computer, with all
> its implications of it being a machine, occurs repeatedly. In the last 40
> years no true AI has emerged. Todays corresponding term would be 'strong
> AI', Kubrick and Clarke's use of mid-1960s terminology obscures the fact
> that the film and novel authors constructed an AI that is unmistakably
> strong, that is, capable of "general intelligent action." How this would
> have been achieved Kubrick and Clarke left as an extrapolation. Clarke
> provides a little extrapolation in the novel:
>
> "Probably no one would every know this: it did not matter. In the 1980's
> Minsky and Good had shown how neural networks could be generated
> automatically -- self-replicated-- in accordance with an arbitrary learning
> program. Artificial brains could be grown by a process strikingly analogous
> to the development of the human brain. In any given case, the precise
> details would never be known, and even if they were, they would be millions
> of times too complex for human understanding." A. C. Clarke (2001: A Space
> Odyssey)
DS:
Actually, you get a GB whenever (on any planet) you evolve a creature
such as Homo Sap and it replicates to the billions and it learns how
to globally communicate. The probelm is that we're inside it and can
never fully realize that it's happened.
I don't buy Clarke's statement that you could grow AI's by a process
and that process would be too complex for human understanding. Maybe
it would be for one human, but the GB could understand it. If such a
process is possible or needed. Maybe all that's needed for
transcendence are linked human brains
I think people can't relate to the GB because it's not some project we
started. It falls out as a consequence of us doing something we
really like to do - communicating. We built the system for that
purpose, and as a byproduct the GB is formed.
The more that people become aware of the GB, the stronger it gets.
For Hofstadter's self-reference comes into play. When the GB realizes
it's a GB (similar to Moonwatcher and the Star Child realizing their
own powers) you get a highly intelligent GB instead of a "dumb" one.
That's my take, anyway.
Don Stockbauer
donstockbauer ***at*** hotmail.com
Don Stockbauer
...context...
Tian
It's easier with modern tools and materials than it was with what they had.
Don Stockbauer
As Richard Miltown Noxious, a farmer US Pressydent once said: "We
could fit all that there stuff on a coin, butt it would be wrong."
Don Stockbauer
***********************************
The building's coming along fine.
Don Stockbauer
global telecommunication capability, then it falls out as a natural
consequence, just like planting a seed which germinates.
Don Stockbauer
Sorry. Kinda got introverted here. Talking to myself again. That's
OK, innit? Self-reference.
Tian
I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added 01SJ pictures and commentary from last Friday.
The radio said that the U.S. average gas price has reached $4.04/gal.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > In case you were wondering how my erection turned out...
>
> > ***********************************
>
> > The building's coming along fine.
>
> I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
>
No, the cows have to rough it under the stars each night.
It's a bomb shelter. With the world in such turmoil, it's a necessity.
Tian
Are you building two foot thick concrete walls? Is it subterranian?
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 10, 3:43 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>> In case you were wondering how my erection turned out...
> >>> ***********************************
> >>> The building's coming along fine.
> >> I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
>
> > No, the cows have to rough it under the stars each night.
>
> > It's a bomb shelter. With the world in such turmoil, it's a necessity.
>
> Are you building two foot thick concrete walls? Is it subterranian?
>
Better stop this in its infancy. Ain't buildin' nuthin'. Just kind
of existing, day to day. With my fanciful imagination.
Don Stockbauer
I had to some how find another meaning for "erection".
I'm so ashamed. I lied. I've never done that before.
Shortest version?
Global telecommunicators form Global Brain.
Tian
> On Jun 11, 9:27 am, Don Stockbauer <donstockba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 11, 12:32 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
>>>> On Jun 10, 3:43 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>>>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
>>>>>> In case you were wondering how my erection turned out...
>>>>>> ***********************************
>>>>>> The building's coming along fine.
>>>>> I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
>>>> No, the cows have to rough it under the stars each night.
>>>> It's a bomb shelter. With the world in such turmoil, it's a necessity.
>>> Are you building two foot thick concrete walls? Is it subterranian?
>> Better stop this in its infancy. Ain't buildin' nuthin'. Just kind
>> of existing, day to day. With my fanciful imagination.
>
> I had to some how find another meaning for "erection".
>
> I'm so ashamed. I lied. I've never done that before.
>
> Shortest version?
>
> Global telecommunicators form Global Brain.
I built a tobacconist one time. I'm getting around to building a church,
meaining I bought the N gage railroading model, but I haven't gotten
around to putting it together. I just don't have a crying need for it
right now.
Just after I got my BSEE I spent a few days working on a full sized
church organ.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added 01SJ pictures and commentary from last Friday.
The radio said that the U.S. average gas price has reached $4.05/gal.
Tian
I drop coins in the bank because I didn't think anyone would want to
read my fanciful imaginings. Not that anyone wants to read about filling
my pink piggy bank, but at least it's a non-event that really happened
about when the date stamp said it did, allowing for normal clock variations.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added 01SJ pictures and commentary from last Friday.
The radio said that the U.S. average gas price has reached $4.05/gal.
Don Stockbauer
Is a tobacconist someone who smokes tobacco? How did you build him/
her? Was it like Frankenstein, out of dead body parts? Did It try to
do harm to you, its creator?
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 11, 12:32 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>> On Jun 10, 3:43 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>>>> In case you were wondering how my erection turned out...
> >>>>> ***********************************
> >>>>> The building's coming along fine.
> >>>> I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
> >>> No, the cows have to rough it under the stars each night.
> >>> It's a bomb shelter. With the world in such turmoil, it's a necessity.
> >> Are you building two foot thick concrete walls? Is it subterranian?
>
> > Better stop this in its infancy. Ain't buildin' nuthin'. Just kind
> > of existing, day to day. With my fanciful imagination.
>
> I drop coins in the bank because I didn't think anyone would want to
> read my fanciful imaginings. Not that anyone wants to read about filling
> my pink piggy bank, but at least it's a non-event that really happened
> about when the date stamp said it did, allowing for normal clock variations.
>
I think your dropping a coin in the piggy-bank becoming a metaphor for
"what you wrote me is a piece of s**t, get real" is very useful and
should be adopted globally.
Tian
>>>> On Jun 11, 12:32 am, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>>>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
>>>>>> On Jun 10, 3:43 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
>>>>>>>> In case you were wondering how my erection turned out...
>>>>>>>> ***********************************
>>>>>>>> The building's coming along fine.
>>>>>>> I didn't even know you were working on one. Is this a cow barn?
>>>>>> No, the cows have to rough it under the stars each night.
>>>>>> It's a bomb shelter. With the world in such turmoil, it's a
>>>>>> necessity.
>>>>> Are you building two foot thick concrete walls? Is it
>>>>> subterranian?
>>>> Better stop this in its infancy. Ain't buildin' nuthin'. Just
>>>> kind of existing, day to day. With my fanciful imagination.
>>> I'm so ashamed. I lied. I've never done that before.
>>> Shortest version?
>>> Global telecommunicators form Global Brain.
>> I built a tobacconist one time. I'm getting around to building a
>> church, meaining I bought the N gage railroading model, but I haven't
>> gotten around to putting it together. I just don't have a crying need
>> for it right now.
>>
>> Just after I got my BSEE I spent a few days working on a full sized
>> church organ.
>>
>
> Is a tobacconist someone who smokes tobacco? How did you build him/
> her? Was it like Frankenstein, out of dead body parts? Did It try to
> do harm to you, its creator?
A tobacconist is a someone who sells tobacco. I bought a model at the
hobby shop and glued it together. They have them for people that do
elaborate train layouts.I was inspired by a coworker that had a disney
imageneering studio on his desk. You can see it to the right of the blue
monkey in this picture:
http://tian.greens.org/MountainView/My/CDRack/BringTheTroopsHomeNOW.jpg
Maybe I got some evil chemicals in my system from the glue, but I'm not
that worried about it. Maybe it would have looked better if I'd given it
that "painted lady" San Francisco quality, but that was way too much
work at the time for me.
Don Stockbauer
That's a nice model of a tobacconist's place of bidness. At least
you do something useful with your time. I can't say that.
Tian
All my life I've been the office straight man. Can't do that without
somebody to bounce off of.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added 01SJ pictures and commentary from last Friday.
This evening I saw Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks play in St. James Park.
Don Stockbauer
I was the office straight man from 1978 to 1995. At that point I got
trapped in a situation that was enough to break down my normal jovial
self and cause me to blow up. That's a pretty effective ticket out of
a profession. You lose that job and word gets around and no one else
will hire you. Seems to me that this modern day and age requires
lobotomized sheep workers that just sit there and take it with a smile
no matter how bad it gets. Luckily there was a family ranch to go
back to and play around on. But who cares about folly stories?
Don Stockbauer
I'm so sorry I showed abd judgedment and bored everybody with the
stroy of my failed life. It will never happen again.. We all cant be
successes in life. You have to have a few miserable failures to post
as example for our children to look at and say "This is not what I
want to be." Thats all I was trying to do. Is it wise to disparage
oneself publicly for then people will do nothing but agree with you?
I just dont know. Life is so complicated. i just cant figger it
out. But I want to know. whatz a body to do? I just dont know. I
want to know so badly. But I dont know.
Er, somebody hit the tuntable, please?
Don Stockbauer
society. Not much else to do today, apologizing seemed like the thing
to do.
Yall all have a nice Saturday and do something useful for Humanity,
like rearranging your sock drawer or the like.
Thank you.
Mudge
> I just thought I'd apologize again for my many transgressions against
> society. Not much else to do today, apologizing seemed like the thing
> to do.
Apology accepted - but - compo would be more nicier !!!
> Yall all have a nice Saturday and do something useful for Humanity,
> like rearranging your sock drawer or the like.
Wonder wot it would be like - having a sock drawer ???
--
The Canadian Curmudgeon (in Calgary)
End global warming ~ eliminate the cause ~ Gore Suzuki !
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > I just thought I'd apologize again for my many transgressions against
> > society. Not much else to do today, apologizing seemed like the thing
> > to do.
>
> Apology accepted - but - compo would be more nicier !!!
Ok. How much, to what address?
>
> > Yall all have a nice Saturday and do something useful for Humanity,
> > like rearranging your sock drawer or the like.
>
> Wonder wot it would be like - having a sock drawer ???
>
Er - I would think in Canada that one would have tons of socks. Big,
thick, wooly socks.
Tian
drawer of socks where I put the unmatched ones that are left over after
I fold the laundry. Every now and then I go through that and match the
sox in it that match. I'm starting to think there are sox in that drawer
that are never going to pair up again. I'm wondering what to do with
those. One of them as Goofy on it. Some of the others are white, others
dark. Not enough matchingness in any of them. It gives me the blues.
What do you do with unmatchable socks?
The rest of my socks go on the socks shelf in the closet.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added 01SJ pictures and commentary from last Friday.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 14, 2:02 pm, Mudge <mu...@nospam.ever> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
>
> >>> I just thought I'd apologize again for my many transgressions against
> >>> society. Not much else to do today, apologizing seemed like the thing
> >>> to do.
> >> Apology accepted - but - compo would be more nicier !!!
>
> > Ok. How much, to what address?
>
> >>> Yall all have a nice Saturday and do something useful for Humanity,
> >>> like rearranging your sock drawer or the like.
> >> Wonder wot it would be like - having a sock drawer ???
>
> > Er - I would think in Canada that one would have tons of socks. Big,
> > thick, wooly socks.
>
> I have tonnes of sox. Mostly cotton athletic and work socks. I have a
> drawer of socks where I put the unmatched ones that are left over after
> I fold the laundry. Every now and then I go through that and match the
> sox in it that match. I'm starting to think there are sox in that drawer
> that are never going to pair up again. I'm wondering what to do with
> those. One of them as Goofy on it.
How did you get a George W. Bush sock?
Ever hear the one about where Mickey Mouse was divorcing Minnie? The
judge told him "While I find evidence that Minnie shows some
instability, I don't see where she's actually insane as you claim."
Mickey said "No, no, your honor, I never said that she's insane. All
I said was that she was f**king goofy!!!!"
Some of the others are white, others
> dark. Not enough matchingness in any of them. It gives me the blues.
>
> What do you do with unmatchable socks?
>
> The rest of my socks go on the socks shelf in the closet.
I guess like I do, just have that pile uf unmatched ones which might
be matched someday. Or just use them to masturbate into. The cotton
ones feel better.
Don Stockbauer
Did I actually write that? No, I didn't . My little niece, Felicity,
got to the computer and typed it. Bad Felicity!!! Bad Felicity! No
asparagus for you tonight!
Don Stockbauer
Felicity is very sorry for what she did. As punishment, I forced her
to watch all of GWB's old televised speeches. She wants to know if
there is any way to erase what she's done from usenet. Will this be
part of her permanent record? It might prevent her from achieving her
dream job, cleaning the crappers in a Calcutta whore house.
Thank you.
Don Stockbauer
Hi, Al.
My pattern recogniton software has detected a potential infinite
loop. Here it is:
You send me this, or equivalent (let's call it text block A):
I think Clarke's , well it was not really Clarke but the
famous AI researcher at MIT Marvin Minsky who Clarke knew (Minsky
became a consultant on 2001) who was one of the few in the 1960's who
did not think that AI's would be 'machines'. At the time many thought
one could soon build a super duper computer and program it so it
passed the Turing test. Minsky's hunch was that that would never
happen. A lot of sophisticated electronics has been built in the last
40 years , but nothing similar to HAL has emerged, at least I know of
nothing. Clarke's description of HAL's creation is an old ploy in SF ,
you make a plausible argument without getting into Techno Babble a
kind of reasonable extrapolation. Minsky's speculation was that
someday it would be possible to replicate biological evolution is a
solid state kind of way, so to speak, an get an AI. Since we still
don't really understand consciousness and the brain this is a kind of
hedge.
I answer you with this (call it text block B):
Back in the 40's or so all people could focus on was making a
large computer intelligent. Slowly cybernetics came into its own an
emphasized networks. Networks of neurons, networks of computers.
People realized that a mind is formed from many elements networked
together communicating. The Big Computer requirement (HAL) began to
look like it was not the road to Ai. Pc's got invented. The web got
invented. Now any person on earth could communicate easily with any
other, at least the subset in tech advanced cities.
The way I see it people can serve as the substrate for an AI the
size of earth. The trouble is that each of us thnking about it is
such a tiny element we cannot grasp the whole. Maybe a few people can
get a dim idea of its form.
The idea is - if you link humans globally with communication
channels will a "brain" form at the global level? I think it's a
matter of faith. What I do is to believe in it and see if those
beliefs produce good results, the scientific method.
************
Then , a month or two later, you send me me Block A again, having
been totally uninfluenced by Block B, and I answer with Block B,
and so on, forever and ever . I suggest that we exit this trap unless
one or the other or both of us is willing to entertain new ideas.
Thank you.
Don
Don Stockbauer
life. It's why I have a large boomerang collection. My mother once
went to a family therapist and told him that Don just doesn't have any
friends. He said, "Tell him to take up throwing boomerangs. Tell him
to use one to make a tasty kangaroo meringue"
Tian
Is that a film about Kangaroos dancing in a sexy manner?
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added San Jose Gay Pride march pictures and commentary.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > I'm so sorry. I keep running evreybody off. Itz the story of my
> > life. It's why I have a large boomerang collection. My mother once
> > went to a family therapist and told him that Don just doesn't have any
> > friends. He said, "Tell him to take up throwing boomerangs. Tell him
> > to use one to make a tasty kangaroo meringue"
>
> Is that a film about Kangaroos dancing in a sexy manner?
>
Er......no.
When I worked in Houston I had something posted on my wall about using
a boomerang to make a tasty kangaroo meringue. I read it to (name
withheld) and he said "Is that how you say that? Meringue? ( = Mer
RANG). I thought it was pronounced mer IN gee. Years later I tried
to start up a dialog with him by email and he wasn't having any of it.
Don Stockbauer
Danm it's hot outside.
Tian
Not here. It was so nice I ate my lunch on the stairs.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 9:50 pm, Don Stockbauer <donstockba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 17, 2:09 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>>> I'm so sorry. I keep running evreybody off. Itz the story of my
> >>>> life. It's why I have a large boomerang collection. My mother once
> >>>> went to a family therapist and told him that Don just doesn't have any
> >>>> friends. He said, "Tell him to take up throwing boomerangs. Tell him
> >>>> to use one to make a tasty kangaroo meringue"
> >>> Is that a film about Kangaroos dancing in a sexy manner?
> >> Er......no.
>
> >> When I worked in Houston I had something posted on my wall about using
> >> a boomerang to make a tasty kangaroo meringue. I read it to (name
> >> withheld) and he said "Is that how you say that? Meringue? ( = Mer
> >> RANG). I thought it was pronounced mer IN gee. Years later I tried
> >> to start up a dialog with him by email and he wasn't having any of it.
>
> > Danm it's hot outside.
>
> Not here. It was so nice I ate my lunch on the stairs.
>
So....that means???? that temperature can vary from point to point on
the Earth?
Don Stockbauer
Well I think both Block A and B are plausible. My own opinion is I
have not see a 'hard' AI emerge , yet, out of Block A or Block B.
Unless both are hiding from us? If it does emerge when do you think
this will be?
Al
From: Don
It's possible that the only way you get intelligence (artificial or
human) is:
1. The system must have around a 100,000,000,000 node neural net
(like the human brain).
2. You must train it with experience from culture for 20 or so years.
So maybe there is no AI yet because it takes that sweat-equity. Doing
that for a human is possible, it takes 20 years, but we do it
naturally, it called raising kids.
I'm at fault for calling the Global Brain an AI. What you're thinking
of, Al, for an AI is something like HAL, a single computer that's
smart, Al.
The global brain is really a planetary intelligence. You make smart
systems by having a bunch of subsystems connected and communicating
with each other. IMHO, we've developed a fantastic PI, getting ever
greater and greater, but we're all jaded, we're too close to it, we
expect things of it, it's nothing wondrous to us anymore, thus we very
possibly are all in paradise, Al, and the true irony is we don't
realize it and most people think it's Hell.
Communication capabilities should keep going off-scale high, we should
go from a salamander-global-brain to a monkey-global brain to a human-
level-global brain, and at that point you have transcendence. And
what do such beings do? They look for communication partners.
I guess. That's what I see, anyway.
Don
Tian
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added my review of Don't Start the Revolution Without Me.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 3:47 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>> On Jun 17, 9:50 pm, Don Stockbauer <donstockba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Jun 17, 2:09 pm, Tian <tnhar...@aceweb.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> >>>>>> I'm so sorry. I keep running evreybody off. Itz the story of my
> >>>>>> life. It's why I have a large boomerang collection. My mother once
> >>>>>> went to a family therapist and told him that Don just doesn't have any
> >>>>>> friends. He said, "Tell him to take up throwing boomerangs. Tell him
> >>>>>> to use one to make a tasty kangaroo meringue"
> >>>>> Is that a film about Kangaroos dancing in a sexy manner?
> >>>> Er......no.
> >>>> When I worked in Houston I had something posted on my wall about using
> >>>> a boomerang to make a tasty kangaroo meringue. I read it to (name
> >>>> withheld) and he said "Is that how you say that? Meringue? ( = Mer
> >>>> RANG). I thought it was pronounced mer IN gee. Years later I tried
> >>>> to start up a dialog with him by email and he wasn't having any of it.
> >>> Danm it's hot outside.
> >> Not here. It was so nice I ate my lunch on the stairs.
>
> > So....that means???? that temperature can vary from point to point on
> > the Earth?
>
> Either that or you are on a different planet from me.
>
No, I think I'm still here on earth. I wonder if any planet can have
a uniform temperature all over the surface. Cant be near a sun.
Maybe if it were flung way out to intergalactic space then the whole
thing might be near absolute zero. Did you know that John Cage's
"composition" 4' 33" (a work entirely of silence) refers to -273
(4*60+33) = absolute zero = what the world's population could very
well be if General Chilton (or has he lost that job and they've got
another one in there) and PressyDent GWB don't keep things under
control. Control. ControL??? That's what cybernetics is all about,
innit?
Tian
It was a hot day. I was riding my bike with Carol Brouillet. We entered
a cool dark tunnel. She said "cool". The air was much cooler there, and
it felt cool in a very good way. I'm trying to figure out how to bind
word of mouth to the feeling well enough that social "brownian motion"
will make the desire to be cool a compelling reason to stop warming our
planet with burnt fossil fuels. Seems to be a feat of self control on
top of everything else...
Don Stockbauer
I keep thinking that a Global Hydrogen Economy based on using solar
energy to dissociate water and then you distribute the hydrogen
worldwide would solve that. But then I see news reports on we must do
more offshore driling and really drilling everywhere so the thought is
to just get more fossil fuels since that's what we're all set up to do
instead of going to a GHE which would last until the sun fries the
earth in a billion years. Of course there are other alternative
energy sources. I wish I had a crystal ball to see exactly how the
planet goes as time goes on.
Don Stockbauer
One thing I don't think we still understand what an intelligence
is or the physical details of consciousness..
I guess the question is can a big net GB or HAL like be self
organizing and kind of self programmed , how would you know it was
intelligence if hid that from us?
Al
Dear Al,
Maybe you found a way to terminate this. Make the questions so high
level no one could answer them (except maybe the Global Brain).
I don't think anyone now knows what intelligence is or consciousness
is 100%, that is, knows completely about them. Hofstadter just says
about all you can do is give attributes of them. The Principia
Cybernetica says that intelligence is whatever leads to our
comfortable survival.
How would we know that it's intelligent? That's back to "we cant,
each of us is like a single neuron in a 1E11 neuron brain, we probably
can know little of the whole.
But then I think of this: I'm given a car. I can drive it without
having to know every last detail of how the engine works, how the
transmission works, ie, I can use it to do things without
understanding every last aspect of the tool. So I might not have to
fully understand intelligence to be intelligent myself and to do some
good in the world as far as spreading some ideas around.
A GB or HAL like structure can certainly be self organizing and it can
surly be self programmed (look at a human child - s/he does that). I
don't think it would deliberately hide its intelligence (except in the
sense above, that each of us is so miniscule). How do we know if it's
intelligent? Here's where I get in trouble and people ridicule this.
I think it will manifest itself by things getting better and better.
I think it would make a literal Utopia here on Earth. We all would
still have problems, but overall a system such as it would try to
dissipate evil just like a hot system dissipates heat. People want
comfortable survival, they work at it, that goes to the metalevel
bottom-up and then is distributed back down top-down. I see great
utility in positive self-fulfilling prophecy, ie, what I've just
predicted. It's kind of like a poster I saw in a Chinese restaurant,
an eagle flying over the ocean with a caption. I asked the waitress
what the caption (in Chinese) said. She translated "Things will get
better." (by the way, that was the China Taste restaurant in
Victoria, Texas, I highly recommend it.)
So maybe this is the end of our discussion. It can't go much higher,
I'm reaching my limit. But if you want to iterate, feel free. The
Global Brain is formed by communication, the higher level the better.
Don Stockbauer
Don Stockbauer
how much he got paid, having traveled backwards in time from his era
to now. He said (paraphrasing) "We have no salaries in my age. Each
human, by right of birth, has all his/her necessities taken care of by
the System. I addition, each person has full access to the entire
wealth of our society, which is beyond anything you could possibly
imagine". I mean, what higher level Utopia could you possibly have?
I think it was this scene which got me to thinking about if the Global
Brain would achieve that.
Don Stockbauer
Don Stockbauer
> Lotsa stuff going on.
Been getting some rain recently. Cows are happy. Its nice when you
don't face starvation.
Don Stockbauer
I want to congratulate you on revealing a new case of human
interaction to me, that of the discussion ramping up and up and up to
the point where it can't go any higher because no one on Earth could
possibly ramp it up any higher. Congrats!
Don
Don Stockbauer
them to the impossible; how do you do this? Let time pass and
technology blossom."
Tian
> Lotsa stuff going on.
>
It was so good I didn't want to go my own way until the end. I got to
the train station and the last train had left. I had to figure out how
to sleep with no heavy clothing or anything else. Ended up in a hotel.
Today I was in need of a day of recovery. Yeah there is lots going on,
but I'm not up for it.
Don Stockbauer
> Don Stockbauer wrote:
> > Lotsa stuff going on.
>
> I spent yesterday pedaling in the bicycle music festival (San Francisco)
> It was so good I didn't want to go my own way until the end. I got to
> the train station and the last train had left. I had to figure out how
> to sleep with no heavy clothing or anything else. Ended up in a hotel.
> Today I was in need of a day of recovery. Yeah there is lots going on,
> but I'm not up for it.
I came close to spending a night under the stars with no tent, no
nothing except a backpack and my clothes. I was in Big Bend National
Park near the Mesa de Anguila. I wound up staying out too late and
had no flashlight since I normally only did day hikes, no way to
navigate though the brush. But then around 10 pm or so the waning
gibbous moon rose and I was able to get back to the car. It would
have bee pretty miserable since it was cold, but not life-
threatening. After that I l always kept a good flashlight in the pack.
Tian
I've been noticing my idea of a good flashlight shrinking dramatically
since they started putting those high efficiency LEDs in them. Now a
good one just needs three AA batteries and works for a whole camping
trip without getting recharged.
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added Bicycle Music Festival pictures and commentary.
Don Stockbauer
I was a little green at that point and didn't know that a flashlight
is mandatory even for dayhikes due to the possibility of them becoming
nighthikes. What messed me up on that hike was the fact that I had
planned to get back to the car by walking in the bottom of a drainage
which I figured I could manage even if dark (prolly not a good
assumption), and then at one point I found myself thigh deep in mud,
necessitating getting out of the drainage and into the brush.
Have you ever hiked in quicksand drainages such as the Upper Paria
River (which is at the beginning of the Grand Canyon). I use to and
then tell people and they'd say "You're crazy! That stuff will suck
you under". They probably saw too many Westerns where the Bad Guys
get into it and nothing's left except their black hats on the
surface. In reality you never sink much further than knee deep at
worst and you learn to walk fast and stay above it.
Tian
I still think of them as slippery slopes.
Don Stockbauer
A lot of slippery slopes around. Luckily most are not infinite and
you stop at some point automatically. Unless one takes you over the
edge of the Grand Canyon. At the edge the slope becomes infinite and
4,800 feet later your stay in this vale of tears is over.
Here's something I worked up, don't know if you have much interest in
this movie; it's a bit of past-time for some people to find flaws in
it.
*************************
I was thinking about the movie "2001" and how Bowman left his helmet
back in Discovery when he went EVA.
I reviewed the movie and you can see it- there in the pod bay there's
a rack of suits, and one of them has a helmet but no suit under it.
Now - what this all tells us is that high emotions can defeat
training. Bowman forgot his helmet.
But think of this - he had to get the body of the suit with the helmet
right above it, and yet leave the helmet. What is this? I mean, the
helmet is essential and is right there in front of his eyes.
Rather unlikely. Kubrick needed to come up with some explanation as
to why it was left behind.
I also like the part (in the book) where he was trying to get to a
kiosk which contained an oxygen flood and he tugged at the door and it
wouldn't budge for one horrifying second. He tugged some more and it
finally came free. But what a reason to die - a stuck door. That
would really bite it.
Don Stockbauer