Tanstaafel???

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Max Adam

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97
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For anyone:

I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
"tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
book (s).

Help!
Thanks
Max

David Garrett

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97
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On Tue, 07 Jan 1997 05:39:28 GMT, bda...@pacbell.net (Max Adam)
wrote:

There
Ain't
No
Such
Thing
As
A
Free
Lunch.

Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.

-David

=======================================
-David Garrett
-Newport, TN
-#####gar...@planetc.com**********
-http://www.planetc.com/users/garrett
==========================================

Debnor

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97
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Max Adam (bda...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: For anyone:

: I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
: "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
: book (s).

TANSTAAFL: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Originally appeared in Heinlein's works in TMIAHM, original attribution
seems to vary; there's been quite a bit of discussion on that subject
in the past.

--
May Rafael bring you His healing * Debnor
May Michael watch over you with His fiery sword * r...@ripco.com
May Gabrael bring you glad tidings * Richard Sheaves-Bein
May Uriel bring the death of fear * general techie-at-large

Michael Hyde

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97
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Max Adam wrote:
>
> For anyone:
>
> I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
> "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
> book (s).
>
> Help!
> Thanks
> Max

If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.
The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
A Harsh Mistress".

Mike
--


******************************************
All opinions expressed are entirely my own
No one else would want them
******************************************

**************************************************
Simon Kettlebottom of the Guilde of Sainte Dymphna
Cook of the Black Dawn
Largest Breeding, er, Breathing Sea Dog
**************************************************

Rich Rostrom

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Jan 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/8/97
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> Max Adam wrote:
> >
> > For anyone:
> >
> > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
> > "tanstaafel,"
>

> If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.
> The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
> A Harsh Mistress".

T here
A in't
N o
S uch
T hing
A s
A
F ree
L unch

--
Rich Rostrom | You could have hit him over the head with it and he
| wouldn't have minded. He never did mind being hit
R-Rostrom@ | with small things like guns and axe handles.
bgu.edu | - Ellis Parker Butler, "That Pup of Murchison's"

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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Jan 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/8/97
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bda...@pacbell.net (Max Adam) wrote:

>For anyone:

>I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by

>"tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
>book (s).

>Help!
>Thanks
>Max
it's short for "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!"

one of RAH's better jibes at the Powers That Be!

ck
Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP
Kri...@AOL.com KC5EVN
"Reckless, Hell! I hit jus' where I was aimin'"
"Bubba Shot the Jukebox!" Mark Chestnut, 1995


Nora Rivkis

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Jan 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/8/97
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Max Adam <bda...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<32d1e138....@news.pacbell.net>...


> For anyone:
>
> I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated
by
> "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
> book (s).

It's spelled TANSTAAFL, it stands for "There Ain't No Such Thing As
A Free Lunch," and it comes mostly from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
although I think the term may show up in other Heinlein books.

There's a coffee shop at the University of Chicago called TANSTAAFL.
It doesn't pretend to do free lunches. ;-)

> Help!
> Thanks
> Max

-Naomi

JNM

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Jan 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/8/97
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Rich Rostrom wrote:
>
> In article <32D28F...@symantec.com>, mh...@symantec.com wrote:
>
> > Max Adam wrote:
> > >
> > > For anyone:
> > >
> > > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
> > > "tanstaafel,"
> >
> > If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.
> > The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
> > A Harsh Mistress".
>
> T here
> A in't
> N o
> S uch
> T hing
> A s
> A
> F ree
> L unch
>

Jah, jah, sure, but in da original Nordic it's:

'There ain't no such thing as a free lutefisk.'

- Bjorn

Andrew W. Smith

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Jan 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/8/97
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Max Adam wrote:

> > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by

> > "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
> > book (s).

> If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.


> The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
> A Harsh Mistress".
>

> Mike

No, it is in English... Colloquial American English at that. It is an
acronym for There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. And the book was
:The Moon is A Harsh Mistress." but I think it was also used in "Time
Enough For Love."

Probably the truest statement ever made...

Andrew Smith

Wei-Hwa Huang

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Jan 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/9/97
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"Andrew W. Smith" <and...@inreach.com> writes:
>Max Adam wrote:

>> > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
>> > "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
>> > book (s).

>No, it is in English... Colloquial American English at that. It is an

>acronym for There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. And the book was
>:The Moon is A Harsh Mistress." but I think it was also used in "Time
>Enough For Love."

>Probably the truest statement ever made...

Naw, I just had a free lunch three days ago. :)

--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is God famous? Or is He just very, very, very, very well-known?

Bill Woods

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Jan 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/9/97
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Andrew W. Smith wrote:
>
> Max Adam wrote:
>
> > > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
> > > "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
> > > book (s).
>
> > If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.
> > The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
> > A Harsh Mistress".
> >
> > Mike
>
> No, it is in English... Colloquial American English at that. It is an
> acronym for There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. And the book was
> :The Moon is A Harsh Mistress." but I think it was also used in "Time
> Enough For Love."
>
> Probably the truest statement ever made...
>
> Andrew Smith

Where did this quotation come from, originally?

--
Bill Woods

"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program"
-Larry Niven

Larry Smith

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Jan 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/10/97
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On 9 Jan 1997 15:01:31 GMT, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
wrote:


>Naw, I just had a free lunch three days ago. :)

Better watch out.... those "free" lunches can be very expensive.


Larry Smith <larry...@nmol.com>

The Eclectic HodgePodge <http://www.nmol.com/users/larry/index.htm>
Two Moons WebWorks <http://www.nmol.com/users/larry/twomoons.htm>
Libertarian Party of New Mexico <http://www.nmol.com/users/larry/nmlp.htm>

Manuel Gomes

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Jan 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/10/97
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bda...@pacbell.net (Max Adam) wrote:
>I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
>"tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
>book (s).

TINSTAAFL = There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (I think the
original is by Samuelson, the economist...) and it can be found on The
moon is a harsh Mistress and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls... maybe
some others. (Number of the beast ?)

Manuel Gomes
*manue...@mail.telepac.pt*
Manuel Gomes
Answer to : manue...@mail.telepac.pt
Flames to : care...@big.bit.bucket.in.the.sky


PMccutc103

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Jan 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/10/97
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manue...@mail.telepac.pt (Manuel Gomes) wrote:

>TINSTAAFL = There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (I think the
>original is by Samuelson, the economist...) and it can be found on The
>moon is a harsh Mistress and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls... maybe
>some others. (Number of the beast ?)

It's "There _ain't_ no such . . . ." And while this statement is
associated with an economist, it ain't Paul Samuelson. Dr. Samuelson
believes in free lunches and is all in favor of same. And your statement
is also wrong in that it implies that Samuelson had an original thought,
something strictly forbidden in the economics department at MIT. The
economist who embraced TAANSTAFL was, of course, Milton Friedman -- a man
who may have done as much to advance human liberty as any American in the
twentieth century, with the possible exception of Heinlein.
________________________

Pete McCutchen

Wei-Hwa Huang

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Jan 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/10/97
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larry...@nmol.com (Larry Smith) writes:
>On 9 Jan 1997 15:01:31 GMT, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
>wrote:

>>Naw, I just had a free lunch three days ago. :)
>Better watch out.... those "free" lunches can be very expensive.

Come to think of it, I had to give away the inverse of a good meal
for that lunch... :)

Carl Abrams

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Jan 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/11/97
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There have been references in other literature (not just in RAH), both
fiction and non, to bars in the early part of this century having either
cheese sandwiches, boiled eggs, or other assorted snacks under either a
glass or mesh cover on the bar with the sign "Free Lunch" propped up
behind it. Of course, to cover the cost of the free lunch, the bar
owners would have to increase the price of the drinks a bit (like
double) to recoup their costs.

Thus, you would have to spend more to drink, with the privilege of being
able to enjoy a "free lunch". And since the bar owners knew that with
some food in your stomach to be able to absorb the alcohol, you would
then be able to drink more, and thus spend even more money. Sort of a
positive feedback cycle.

And so you have the statement "There ain't no such thing as a free
lunch".

dty...@aol.com

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Jan 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/11/97
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In article <32D3E1...@execpc.com>, JNM <jmue...@execpc.com> writes:

>Jah, jah, sure, but in da original Nordic it's:
>

>'There ain't no such thing as a free lutefisk.'

There has to be...I cannot imagine anyone paying for lutefisk.<G>

Dty...@aol.com (David Tygart)

dty...@aol.com

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Jan 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/11/97
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In article <32D28F...@symantec.com>, Michael Hyde <mh...@symantec.com>
writes:

>If memory serves, it is TANSTAAFL, it is some Nordic language I believe.
>The meaning is "There is no free lunch". I first saw it in "The Moon Is
>A Harsh Mistress".

Simply the first letters of the saying "There Ain't No Such Thing As A
Free Lunch."

Dty...@aol.com (David Tygart)

Kirk R. Darling

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Jan 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/12/97
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Pete,

Jerry Pournelle said (via online conversation on his GEnie Roundtable) that
RAH got TANSTAFFL from him, and that he got it from his father.
--
KRD
"Leap boldly. You can't cross a chasm in two easy steps."

PMccutc103 <pmccu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970110190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

PMccutc103

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Jan 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/13/97
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"Kirk R. Darling" <KDAR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Pete,
>
>Jerry Pournelle said (via online conversation on his GEnie Roundtable)
that
>RAH got TANSTAFFL from him, and that he got it from his father.

OH, I'm quite willing to believe that Heinlein got the idea from somebody
else, and it's not impossible that the somebody else was Pournelle, or
Pournelle, Sr. What I doubted was that the economist Paul Samuelson
thought it up, since Samuelson is neither an original thinker nor one who
rejects the concept of free lunches. And Milton Friedman did embrace the
saying, which for all I know he got from Heinlein. Hence the presence of
the "No Free Lunch Cafe" at the University of Chicago.
________________________

Pete McCutchen

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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Jan 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/13/97
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Bill Woods <wwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
snip

>Where did this quotation come from, originally?

>--
> Bill Woods

>"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program"
> -Larry Niven

One of the other post in this thread has already attributed the
"Tanstaafl" to Jerry Pournelle's dad.

It has also been taken as a paraphrase of the laws of thermodynamics:

1. Stuff rolls down hill.

2. Stuff will not roll up hill on it's own.

3. You can't win, you can't even break even.

DavisS

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Jan 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/14/97
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TANSTAAFL

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Manny to Stewart LeJoi, if I remember the
name right. Manny explained it to Stu after Stu's corridor trial for
assault (i.e. touching a woman without her consent).

It's the unofficial slogan for Libertarians, btw

Nora Rivkis

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Jan 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/14/97
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PMccutc103 <pmccu...@aol.com> wrote in article

<19970113192...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...


> OH, I'm quite willing to believe that Heinlein got the idea from
somebody
> else, and it's not impossible that the somebody else was Pournelle,
or
> Pournelle, Sr. What I doubted was that the economist Paul
Samuelson
> thought it up, since Samuelson is neither an original thinker nor
one who
> rejects the concept of free lunches. And Milton Friedman did
embrace the
> saying, which for all I know he got from Heinlein. Hence the
presence of
> the "No Free Lunch Cafe" at the University of Chicago.

The cafe, actually, is called TANSTAAFL, not the "No Free Lunch
Cafe,"
and as it's an undergraduate institution I suspect the name came more
directly from Heinlein than from Friedman -- although doubtless the
kind
of influence Friedman's economics had over prevailing thought on
campus
had a good deal to do with why the undergraduates chose the name.
It's
located, should anyone be in the neighborhood, in the basement of
Pierce
Hall, one of the major freshman dorms. It's not, however, very good;
typical
college need-a-food-break-and-donwanna-leave-the-building fare.

> Pete McCutchen

-Naomi, getting homesick for the U of C now...

Eli Hestermann

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Jan 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/14/97
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Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP wrote:

> One of the other post in this thread has already attributed the
> "Tanstaafl" to Jerry Pournelle's dad.
>
> It has also been taken as a paraphrase of the laws of thermodynamics:
>
> 1. Stuff rolls down hill.
>
> 2. Stuff will not roll up hill on it's own.
>
> 3. You can't win, you can't even break even.
>

I thought those laws were:

1. You can't win.
2. In order to break even, you must live forever.
3. You can't live forever.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehest...@whoi.edu
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca

lbo

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Jan 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/14/97
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>Probably the truest statement ever made...

yes, but just add "on the long period"...
l...@iol.it

-- per rispondere eliminate la stringa "nospam." dall'address
-- to answer remove "nospam." from the email address

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Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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chas...@aol.com (CHASGRAFT) wrote:

>The version I heard was:

>1) You can't win (Law of Conservation
>of energy)
>2) You can't even break even (Law of Entropy)
>3) There's no way to get out of the game (Unattainability of absolute
>zero)

><<Big Charlie>>

ok, yours do make a little more sense ( but it still rolls!)

ck


Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP

David Harcombe

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:
>
> "Andrew W. Smith" <and...@inreach.com> writes:
> >Max Adam wrote:
>
> >> > I cannot, for the life of me, remember what aphorism is designated by
> >> > "tanstaafel," or if this is even the right spelling. And in which
> >> > book (s).
>
> >No, it is in English... Colloquial American English at that. It is an
> >acronym for There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. And the book was
> >:The Moon is A Harsh Mistress." but I think it was also used in "Time
> >Enough For Love."
>
> >Probably the truest statement ever made...
>
> Naw, I just had a free lunch three days ago. :)
>

I think you're missing the point. Heinlein proposed that if you think
you've got your lunch for free, then the beer probably costs over the
odds. What he was getting at was that you don't get something for
nothing - Santa Claus only exists in Coke adverts!

And yes, AFAIK it was first used in 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress', but
was used extensively ever after.


Dave Harcombe "To express oneself in
dha...@ibm.net seventeen syllables is
very diffic"

CHASGRAFT

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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Randy

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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chas...@aol.com (CHASGRAFT) wrote:

You can, however, get out of the game for a few thousand years.
See below....

><<Big Charlie>>

Randy Home Page: http://www.pwrnet.com/freepg2/Cryofan/
***********************************
Cryonics: Your Gateway to the Future?
Check out CryoCare at
http://www.cryocare.org/cryocare/
cryo...@cryocare.org
1-800-TOP-CARE

Doug Jones

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Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
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Eli Hestermann (ehest...@whoi.edu) wrote:

: Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP wrote:
:
: > One of the other post in this thread has already attributed the
: > "Tanstaafl" to Jerry Pournelle's dad.
: >
: > It has also been taken as a paraphrase of the laws of thermodynamics:
: >
: > 1. Stuff rolls down hill.
: >
: > 2. Stuff will not roll up hill on it's own.
: >
: > 3. You can't win, you can't even break even.
: >
: I thought those laws were:
:
: 1. You can't win.
: 2. In order to break even, you must live forever.
: 3. You can't live forever.
: --

Let's get it right:

1. You can't win.

2. You can't even break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

The three laws of plumbing (illustrate with hand gestures):

1. Water seeks its own level.
2. Shit flows downhill.
3. Don't bite your fingernails.

--
Doug Jones (http://www.usa.net/~random)
"The secret source of humor itself is not joy, but sorrow." -M. Twain
"I guess that explains why us comics are such screwed-up losers." -D. Jones

dawic...@aol.com

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Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
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In article <32E0BD...@mbox322.swipnet.se>, Kicki
<kicki.s...@mbox322.swipnet.se> writes:

>It was also used in The Cat Who Hoalks Through Walls...
>
>/Kicki.

Not surprising. Same timeline.

Douglas A. Wickstrom OS/32 Spoken
Here
The above address is set to refuse all E-mail SE T:
00:00:00,MM/DD/YY
E-mail replies to nimshubur(at)aol(dot)com.us MA D0:,ON,,CD=1024

VSUP

Kicki

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Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
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