Roddie a Cholo?
Matt Hickman
a running discussion over Rod (_Tunnel in the
Sky_) Walker's race/ethnic origin. There has
been very little direct textual evidence indicating
his this -- probably a result of the author's
perception that his editor at Scribners would
probably fight him on this point.
A few indirect indications that Roddy was black
(or at least dark skinned) include:
1. Caroline (who is Zulu) reminding Roddie of
his sister. Conversely Rod reminds Caroline of her
brother.
2. Magazine putting war-paint etc on Rod to illustrate
their article on the "savage ceremonies" and "primitive
fertility rites" of the kids who have backslid into
'ignorance, superstition, and savagery.'
3. Jimmy is described as 'pink' and sunburned to
contrast him with Rod who has a 'suntan' and
whose scars are pink.
I have found additional textual evidence of Rod's
ethnicity. on page 122 of the Ace edition. Jock
McGowan decks Rod and states:
"Keep 'em that way and I'll take care of this cholo."
Within the context of the novel, McGowan was referring to
Rod Walker as a cholo.
From what little I could find (using google to search
alt.usage.english), 'cholo' is a derogatory slang term
used particularly in Southern California to refer to
ethnic Mexicans. However, I have no idea if this term
had the same meaning in 1954 (or earlier, Heinlein lived
in So. CA in the 1940's) or if Heinlein or McGowan
misused the term.
Hopefully, this has muddled the waters sufficiently
for now.
--
Matt Hickman
If there is anything stupider than flogging yourself
over something you can't help, I've yet to meet it. (Helen Walker)
- Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
_Tunnel in the Sky_ (c 1955)
Jane Davitt
> I have found additional textual evidence of Rod's
> ethnicity. on page 122 of the Ace edition. Jock
> McGowan decks Rod and states:
> "Keep 'em that way and I'll take care of this cholo."
>
> Within the context of the novel, McGowan was referring to
> Rod Walker as a cholo.
>
> From what little I could find (using google to search
> alt.usage.english), 'cholo' is a derogatory slang term
> used particularly in Southern California to refer to
> ethnic Mexicans. However, I have no idea if this term
> had the same meaning in 1954 (or earlier, Heinlein lived
> in So. CA in the 1940's) or if Heinlein or McGowan
> misused the term.
>
>
I did a few searches and all the hits seemed to relate to Latin
American/Spanish subjects. Good eyes Matt....I looked it up to see if my UK
edition was the same (hardcover, 1965) and it is. Can't say that it ever
struck me before.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
David M. Silver
>I have found additional textual evidence of Rod's
>ethnicity. on page 122 of the Ace edition. Jock
>McGowan decks Rod and states:
> "Keep 'em that way and I'll take care of this cholo."
>
>Within the context of the novel, McGowan was referring to
>Rod Walker as a cholo.
>
>From what little I could find (using google to search
>alt.usage.english), 'cholo' is a derogatory slang term
>used particularly in Southern California to refer to
>ethnic Mexicans. However, I have no idea if this term
>had the same meaning in 1954 (or earlier, Heinlein lived
>in So. CA in the 1940's) or if Heinlein or McGowan
>misused the term.
>
>Hopefully, this has muddled the waters sufficiently
>for now.
"Cholo" was current in usage in Los Angeles, the middle 50s while I was a
teenager. It wasn't used too often, though. Mainly it would be used by one
Mexican-American teenager about to challenge another to a fight. The denotation
attached was "punk," an insult preliminary to fighting (or "calling someone
out" as we termed it) ... it's from what we called then "pachucho" Spanish,
which means it probably comes from a Spanish gypsy slang. You could apply to
anyone (I used it very rarely and heard it occasionally used by other 'white'
kids), but it was more common to find it used by those living in neighborhoods
in the central area of Los Angeles county, or on the heavily Mexican-American
east side, rather than, say, on the Anglo west side of town or in the then
heavily "hillbilly" (as we thought of it) San Fernando Valley. An 'anglo' kid
(we didn't use the term then, we said 'white') would more likely call his about
to be "called-out" opponent a "cherry" (which means "virgin" in the fighting
sense) but he could use "cholo" if he knew the term, and if he thought his
opponent might be insulted or shaken by the term, or might be intimidated into
thinking that the teenager using it challenge probably ran with the real bad
gangs which everyone 'knew' about (e.g., "White Fence," "Loma," etc., all of
which of course were predominately Mexican-American gangs).
I never heard that term applied in South-Central (or "Watts" as we then called
it). But then I didn't go down there to pick fights. Consensus in my peer group
was that was a real bad idea. Conceivably, if you looked for an IRL 1950s
prototype, the McGowans easily could have been USC fraternity rats, who maybe
had previously attended Dorsey High (which then was de facto segregated into a
'white' high school, with all the blacks in the Adams neighborhood being
shipped out to Jordan High School a little east of Dorsey). They could find
themselves used to driving around down there. The University of Southern
California is located in an area which was then becoming mostly black, the
South Hoover-Adams Boulevard area, which was in the midst of a block-busting
realtors war -- restrictive covenants being broken by court orders, etc.; and
many Dorsey high types went to USC. they might try that ploy of intimidation by
suggesting they ran with Mexican-American gangs. Knowing what I then knew about
the area, I frankly don't think the ploy would have worked very well with
someone who went to, say, Jordan or Fremont or Washington High School. It would
have caused a little laughter at best. Then the McGowans had best put the pedal
to the metal, quickly.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
--Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R'td
Jane Davitt
Rod makes the fight inevitable by this comment,
'"No. Come on, McGowan." Rod added one unforgivable word.'
I always assumed that word was 'coward'. Anyone think of anything else that would
fit better, just out of curiosity?
And there's nothing in that fight that sheds any light on Rod's race, which is why
I was re reading it. Bruce calls Rod a 'rube' but that just means a country boy,
wet behind the ears, doesn't it? 'Loud mouthed pimple' and 'runt' are equally
unhelpful (though considering what got edited out of Red Planet, this is some meaty
stuff! <g>)
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
SparkyNJ
I have a Peruvian friend who uses this term when he's calling his Brother.
When I asked him what it meant, he told me it was a slang term for someone
with Incan descent. Their Mother can trace her roots back to the incan
times.
See you all around
Tian Harter
in Danny Alfman's band Oingo Boingo as "a real
Cholo." I gathered that the Cholos were a particularly
tough and ready biker gang in south central, or
something like that. It clearly wasn't just anybody
of Mexican American descent to her. Wearing a red
bandana around the head as a headband might have
been something that a lot of them do.
I like this Roddie a Cholo idea.
Tian Harter
http://members.aol.com/RAHfan147
"The power to name is the power to define," - Ralph Nader
Tian Harter
></delurk>
>I have a Peruvian friend who uses this term when he's calling his Brother.
>When I asked him what it meant, he told me it was a slang term for someone
>with Incan descent.
Does the absance of a <relurk> at the bottom of your post
mean you will be talking more? I hope so, your contribution
was interesting....
Me
Interesting question....I would say that RAH picked up the term
somewhere and was familiar with it as derogatory slang, and as such,
it filled the need. I doubt he meant to use it to reinforce the
racial identity. But I guess I could be wrong....
David M. Silver
Nice to see you unlurk, Sparky. I agree that usage might be found among very
close friends or relatives who like each other, a 'friendly insult' so to
speak, among boys or men permitted to tease each other. Never heard of the
Inca derivation, however. Interesting.
Hope we see you post some more. ;) Belly up to Jani's bar on me, please.
--
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
David M. Silver
> On a slightly different note - when Rod and Bruce tangle, near the end of the book,
> Rod makes the fight inevitable by this comment,
>
> '"No. Come on, McGowan." Rod added one unforgivable word.'
> I always assumed that word was 'coward'. Anyone think of anything else that would
> fit better, just out of curiosity?
I can think of a few, but then I grew up in a very plebeian area, Jane. They fall into
two categories. (1) Slang terms applied to name the genital area of a woman or girl or
(2) slang terms used as labels for male homosexuality. You really didn't want to know
that, now, did you?
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Tian Harter
> On a slightly different note - when Rod and Bruce tangle, near the end of the
book,
> Rod makes the fight inevitable by this comment,
>
> '"No. Come on, McGowan." Rod added one unforgivable word.'
> I always assumed that word was 'coward'. Anyone think of
> anything else that would fit better, just out of curiosity?
How about meathead?
lazarus
keyed:
>Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>> On a slightly different note - when Rod and Bruce tangle, near the end of the
>book,
>> Rod makes the fight inevitable by this comment,
>>
>> '"No. Come on, McGowan." Rod added one unforgivable word.'
>> I always assumed that word was 'coward'. Anyone think of
>> anything else that would fit better, just out of curiosity?
>
>How about meathead?
>
Or "please"?
--
lazarus
I shave with Ockham's Razor every morning.
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen F. Roberts
Jane Davitt
>
> I can think of a few, but then I grew up in a very plebeian area, Jane. They fall into
> two categories. (1) Slang terms applied to name the genital area of a woman or girl or
> (2) slang terms used as labels for male homosexuality. You really didn't want to know
> that, now, did you?
>
>
Yes I did, in that I was curious as to whether my assumption was shared. Perhaps I was
applying, unconsciously, the mental censorship required of a juvenile. IOW, I didn't think
of any epithets that would be used in the real world but those allowable in a juvenile of
that time.
Having said that, it still seems that 'coward' is what's at the root of all the terms you
hint at isn't it? A lack of an attribute assumed to be a masculine prerogative, or at
least a trait most desirable in a male.
So I guess I am right enough for it to not need altering in my mind next time I read the
book <g>
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Jane Davitt
>
> How about meathead?
>
Is that unforgivable? Why?
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
David M. Silver
>Having said that, it still seems that 'coward' is what's at the root of
>all the terms you
>hint at isn't it? A lack of an attribute assumed to be a masculine
prerogative,
>or at
>least a trait most desirable in a male.
>So I guess I am right enough for it to not need altering in my mind next
>time I read the book <g>
<G>
Quite, but coward with a twist of the knife.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Tian Harter
>Tian Harter wrote:
>
>>
>> How about meathead?
>>
>
>Is that unforgivable? Why?
Because it was said in the right tone of voice?
At the time I read that book, I had never heard of a Cholo.
All I got was that Bruce saw it as a "fighting word," and
that was enough. Since it was taken that way, it must
have been bad. If he had said "velorutionary" and the
response was the same, I would have understood that
word to work the same way.
When I got involved with politics I found out that so
much of the system is oriented around building
"brand identity" in words so that the generally shared
meaning is consonant with the goals of the group
pushing that way. For example, Xerox is tickled pink
that the word xerox means "copy document."
Cholo is a word that seems to have some sort of
ethnic or racial or cultural subgroup quality. I find
it fascinating that we are discussing it at the same
time there is a Conferance on Race in Durbin,
South Africa. That is what I call elegant timing.
The topic is made sweeter by the fact that Latino
issues are generally considered to be "invisible"
in white America.
Jane Davitt
>
> Because it was said in the right tone of voice?
>
> At the time I read that book, I had never heard of a Cholo.
> All I got was that Bruce saw it as a "fighting word," and
> that was enough. Since it was taken that way, it must
> have been bad. If he had said "velorutionary" and the
> response was the same, I would have understood that
> word to work the same way.
>
No, you are mixed up. The 'cholo' comment was made by Jock at the start
of the book when he challenged Rod's authority. The 'unforgivable'
unnamed word was from Rod to Bruce in their fight at the end of the book
Two different fights and Rod lost both; which always rang true with me
and stopped it being a generic boy wonder type story.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
David Wright
From: "Tian Harter" <rahf...@aol.comNameIsIt>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Roddie a Cholo?
> Jane wrote:
>
> >Tian Harter wrote:
> >
(snip)
> When I got involved with politics I found out that so
> much of the system is oriented around building
> "brand identity" in words so that the generally shared
> meaning is consonant with the goals of the group
> pushing that way. For example, Xerox is tickled pink
> that the word xerox means "copy document."
>
Interesting, when you think of the difference with Coca-Cola. They have
always fought extremely hard to keep the words "Coca-Cola" and "Coke" to
mean strictly their own product and not to be confused with any of the other
'cola' brands. Of course, that's pronounced 'Cocola' where I grew up in
'Atlana'. :)
There is a subtle rational, I think, for the differences, but I can't quite
put my finger on it.
David Wright
Carrington Dixon
<maik...@alltel.net> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tian Harter" <rahf...@aol.comNameIsIt>
>> For example, Xerox is tickled pink
>> that the word xerox means "copy document."
I doubt this very much.
>Interesting, when you think of the difference with Coca-Cola. They have
>always fought extremely hard to keep the words "Coca-Cola" and "Coke" to
>mean strictly their own product and not to be confused with any of the other
>'cola' brands.
Precisely. There is a fine line between being the most identifable
brand and having your brand become a generic. How pleased do you
think the Bayer Company is that every maker of salicylic acid can call
their product 'aspirin'? Bayer lost that trade mark because they did
not protect it. Coca-Cola (and Kleenix, and Jello) want to keep their
trade marks. So does Xerox.
-----------------------------------------------
Carrington Dixon
(For email replay change "nospam" to "home.com"
Tian Harter
>There is a fine line between being the most identifable
>brand and having your brand become a generic. How
>pleased do you think the Bayer Company is that every
>maker of salicylic acid can call their product 'aspirin'?
>Bayer lost that trade mark because they did not protect it.
>Coca-Cola (and Kleenix, and Jello) want to keep their
>trade marks. So does Xerox.
I agree that they want to protect their brand identity, but
they also want to get all that free publicity that comes
from having their name be a verb. In other words, Xerox
seems to be careful to not protest too much.
Jello, on the other hand is a full-fledged entertainment
value battleground. I say this as a member of the political
party that went and Nominated Jello Biafra for POTUS.
I have seen the guy speak three times, the most recent
being at the Free Public Power Concert in San Francisco
something over a week ago.
Every time I have heard Jello speak, he has said "Imagine
my surprise to wake up and find out that the Green Party
of New York had nominated me for President of the
United States" somewhere in his speech. I guarantee you,
this was not a box of Jello speaking. It was a Dead Kennedy.
Can you say Jello does not Rock and Roll with a straight
face?
Tian Harter
http://members.aol.com/RAHfan147
A guy on my radio pointed out that "rooting" for
a sports team can easily mean "sinking your roots
deeper into that community." That does seem to be
what the experience works out to be on some level.
Chris Zakes
But if the "unforgivable word" was "coward", why not simply print it and
have done? To my mind, the fact that it *wasn't* specified is a strong
indication that it's a "dirty" word of some sort, but left to the juvenile
reader's imagination.
It's reminiscent of the scene in "Rocket Ship Galileo" when they first
discover the Nazis, and the Jewish kid (whose name escapes me at the
moment) starts using language the others had never heard from him before,
or the bit in "If This Goes On" when Zeb demonstrates the power of
"emotionally loaded" words to Johnnie.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyrany. Free
men pull in all kinds of directions. It's the only way to
make progress."
-Havelock Vetinari
LV Poker Player
>No, you are mixed up. The 'cholo' comment was made by Jock at the start
>of the book when he challenged Rod's authority. The 'unforgivable'
>unnamed word was from Rod to Bruce in their fight at the end of the book
>Two different fights and Rod lost both; which always rang true with me
>and stopped it being a generic boy wonder type story.
I got around to looking up cholo in my Webster's unabridged and came up with a
meaining that might be sort of relevant. One of the definitions given is a
mestizo of South America. I had to look up mestizo to be certain, and it turns
out that this is a person of mixed race, especially mixed European and Native
American.
This book was written in 1955. I don't think too many people today would take
it as an insult to be called mixed race, at least outside of a KKK rally. They
may or may not consider it to be true, but even if they are proud of their
simon pure African ancestry totally undiluted by any slaveowners (maybe their
ancestors emigrated later. Maybe they emigrated from Africa themselves.
Whatever. They are certain they are not of mixed race) most people TODAY would
not consider it to be a major insult, if they considered it to be an insult at
all. Back in 55, I think it is more likely that the typical reader would
understand that this was an insult.
This ties in with Rod being black, and why my example above was a person proud
of pure African ancestry. Maybe Bruce expected it to be more of an insult that
Rod took it to be. Back in the fifties, being called "mixed race" might have
been an insult comparable to being called a "fag" which can still rile certain
people.
--
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. - from 1984 by George Orwell
Jane Davitt
> Rod took it to be. Back in the fifties, being called "mixed race" might have
> been an insult comparable to being called a "fag" which can still rile certain
> people.
>
>
Jock not Bruce! How many more times do I have to tell you.....sorry, mum speak
kicked in <g>
Actually, the change in Bruce when he comes out from under Jock's shadow is a very
interesting little side theme. Heinlein's stage left characters often have more
detail and more appeal that normal in such books - and sometimes more than the
lead.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Jane Davitt
>
> But if the "unforgivable word" was "coward", why not simply print it and
> have done? To my mind, the fact that it *wasn't* specified is a strong
> indication that it's a "dirty" word of some sort, but left to the juvenile
> reader's imagination.
>
> It's reminiscent of the scene in "Rocket Ship Galileo" when they first
> discover the Nazis, and the Jewish kid (whose name escapes me at the
> moment) starts using language the others had never heard from him before,
> or the bit in "If This Goes On" when Zeb demonstrates the power of
> "emotionally loaded" words to Johnnie.
>
> -
And in the uncut Red Planet where Frank uses some words Jim has never heard but
marked down for future use.
Phrasing it that way is clever; each reader can fill in the blanks to suit
themselves, it doesn't date the books and it doesn't offend those librarians who
were so influential back then.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
David Wright
"LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010906072233...@mb-mg.aol.com...
This brings up a very interesting possibility. Maybe Rod was, indeed, of a
mixed race, black and something other.
In any case, I think that this would definitely have been an insult. Perhaps
Heinlein used this relatively obscure term rather than the more definite
'half-breed'.
Personally, although I've been assured from an unimpeachable source that
this is the case, I've never *emotionally* accepted the fact that he might
be black, because I had unconsciously assumed that he was white and the
relationship between Rod, a 'white' boy and Caroline caused me to question
my own prejudices. Had I known the meaning of 'cholo', I don't think that I
would have made the assumptions that I did.
David Wright
David Wright
"David Wright" <maik...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:9n874u$5mpei$1...@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de...
>
(snip)
> Personally, although I've been assured from an unimpeachable source that
> this is the case, I've never *emotionally* accepted the fact that he might
> be black, because I had unconsciously assumed that he was white and the
> relationship between Rod, a 'white' boy and Caroline caused me to question
> my own prejudices. Had I known the meaning of 'cholo', I don't think that
I
> would have made the assumptions that I did.
Although, considering my prejudices at the time, I would have assumed 'white
& native american' or 'white and polynesian' or something along those lines.
I would never have considered 'white & black'. That would have been
unthinkable.
David Wright
lal_truckee
I PREFER the interpretation that Rod is white, and IS attracted to
Caroline for the very reasons he provides - she's classy, loyal when it
suits her, smarter than Rod, tough, and instant death. And a Zulu
whether that "Zulu" is tribal or slang.
We LIKE to interpret Heinlein's characters as non-caucasion as if it
proves how cool RAH was in those gaudawful ancient days of prejudice and
bigotry, but isn't it even MORE pertinent if RAH has his white-boy hero
lusting after a "Zulu" in the 1950s? I caught at least that much in my
early teens.
BTW, I find the other arguments unpersuasive. Cholo was very common in
my 1950s crowd at the high school - came from the Mexican population but
was used by everyone. Not a serious insult - more like Canuck is to
Canadians - some would take it badly, most are indifferent, or even find
it affectionate. Think _The Virginian_ on this one.
Also Rod is talking about Caroline's "sudden death" characteristics when
he compares her to his sister the "Space Marine" (what was her service?)
- clearly not a racial comparison IMO. The same applies to the
occasion when Carline compares Rod to her brother - she compares
characteristics, not color IMO.
Most telling, doesn't Rod have long flowing hair at the end when he cuts
his pony in ahead of the wagons at the migration gate? Or am I confusing
the scene with the opening scene. In any case I picture Kit Carson or
Bill Cody in those scenes, not Shaka Zulu.
lal_truckee
Heinlein does the "reader fill in the blanks with own imagination"
regularly.
Even does it to his characters occasionally - think Stobor.
Tian Harter
>Heinlein does the "reader fill in the blanks with own
>imagination" regularly.
I consider that to be the key to the power of his writing
style. In one short paragraph he tells you enough that
you get what he meant, without enough that the excitment
of chasing the story line is lost. In fact, the thrill is
enhanced because "you get it", and "it works."
A few years ago (mabye a decade or something like that)
I was wandering around a special exibit of Winslow Homer
art at the Smithsonian with my father. There was an exibit
where they contrasted his work with the European works
that were his contemporaries. Their works were much
more detailed, but his did a much better job of telling the
story of the common man in a way that you "got the
feeling."
The overlap between what Winslow Homer did and what
Heinlein did, as far as getting you to get it with extreme
economy of words/brushstrokes, is what I consider to be
the essence of American Art.
Tian Harter
http://members.aol.com/RAHfan147
Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco, claimed today
that he makes "a buck eighty-two an hour" while being
interviewed on KQED somewhere around 10:47 AM, PST.
Art McNutt
[snip]
>A few years ago (maybe a decade or something like that)
> I was wandering around a special exibit of Winslow Homer
> art at the Smithsonian with my father. There was an exibit
> where they contrasted his work with the European works
> that were his contemporaries. Their works were much
> more detailed, but his did a much better job of telling the
> story of the common man in a way that you "got the
> feeling."
>
> The overlap between what Winslow Homer did and what
> Heinlein did, as far as getting you to get it with extreme
> economy of words/brushstrokes, is what I consider to be
> the essence of American Art.
Very astute. Winslow Homer's work is part of a larger art movement
called the American Scene. Heinlein very much fits into the American
Scene; he's kind of a cross between Homer, Hopper and Rockwell. I'd
never thought of it in quite this way before, but now I won't ever be
able to think of it any other way!
Art
------
I have great faith in fools;
My friends call it self-confidence.
---Edgar Allen Poe
LV Poker Player
>LV Poker Player wrote: Maybe Bruce expected it to be more of an insult that
>
>> Rod took it to be. Back in the fifties, being called "mixed race" might
>have
>> been an insult comparable to being called a "fag" which can still rile
>certain
>> people.
>>
>>
>
>Jock not Bruce! How many more times do I have to tell you.....sorry, mum
>speak
>kicked in <g>
Umm...Jane...go back and reread what I said. I said that Rod reacted to what
Bruce had said, just maybe not quite as strongly as Bruce had intended. Or
maybe Bruce was sounding off and really didn't care what Rod thought. But I
did get it right who said what.
Jane Davitt
>
> Umm...Jane...go back and reread what I said. I said that Rod reacted to what
> Bruce had said, just maybe not quite as strongly as Bruce had intended. Or
> maybe Bruce was sounding off and really didn't care what Rod thought. But I
> did get it right who said what.
>
>
OK, I admit I thought you were saying Bruce made the cholo remark and I see you
weren't....but I still think you are mixed up.:-) Tell me exactly where Bruce
ever refers to Rod as mixed race? Rod is the one who used the unforgivable word
_to_ Bruce after all. Bruce called him a rube and a pimple but they're generic
insults.
Or are we both talking about different scenes? I mean the fight at the end when
Bruce isn't working and Rod, as mayor goes over to sort him out.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
LV Poker Player
>> Umm...Jane...go back and reread what I said. I said that Rod reacted to
>what
>> Bruce had said, just maybe not quite as strongly as Bruce had intended. Or
>> maybe Bruce was sounding off and really didn't care what Rod thought. But
>I
>> did get it right who said what.
>>
>>
>
>OK, I admit I thought you were saying Bruce made the cholo remark and I see
>you
>weren't.
No, that is exactly what I am saying. The trouble is I was wrong. It was not
Bruce, it was Jock.
"Jock McGowan said briskly 'Chad - Dick - got 'em all covered?'
'Right, skipper.'
'Keep 'em that way while I take care of this cholo.'"
So it was Jock talking, not Bruce or Rod.
In the fight at near the end of the book, I cannot find any reference to cholo.
Jock was dead by that point.
So I think we both got a little confused as to what was going on.
Jane Davitt
>
> So it was Jock talking, not Bruce or Rod.
>
> In the fight at near the end of the book, I cannot find any reference to cholo.
> Jock was dead by that point.
>
> So I think we both got a little confused as to what was going on.
>
>
Nope; I'm clear now; it was just you <g>
I think the problem was that I moved from discussing the cholo fight to the
'unforgivable word' fight and you may have missed the post where the transition was
made.
No huhuh as someone said in a Heinlein book.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Matt Hickman
>
> Also Rod is talking about Caroline's "sudden death" characteristics when
> he compares her to his sister the "Space Marine" (what was her service?)
> - clearly not a racial comparison IMO.
No -- Rod mentions that Carol looks like his sister (although Carol is
bigger). The comparison is physical, although skin color is not mentioned
The same applies to the
> occasion when Carline compares Rod to her brother - she compares
> characteristics, not color IMO.
Carol simply says Rod reminds her of her brother. No specifics about
what of Rod reminds her of her brother.
>
> Most telling, doesn't Rod have long flowing hair at the end when he cuts
> his pony in ahead of the wagons at the migration gate? Or am I confusing
> the scene with the opening scene. In any case I picture Kit Carson or
> Bill Cody in those scenes, not Shaka Zulu.
Another possible interpretation is that Rod in Amerind. Rod is called
'old stone-face' a couple of times in the book -- which can be
interpreted as stereotypical of an Amerind. The putting on of war paint
by the magazine reporter actually fits an Amerind better than an African-
American -- as does the 'cholo' insult and possibly even the 'tan' remarks.
Rod does live near the Grand Canyon as well. Further, Rod's last name,
'Walker' would fit an Amerind more easily an ethnic Mexican cholo. There
was a U.S. Marine Navajo code talker in WWII by the name of Clay Walker.
Navajos in the U.S. inhabit the same area as the Walkers live in _TitS_
Possibly Rod was envisioned by the author as of mixed ancestry.
Another thing that struck me about the society is that it also fits
a racial reversal of roles (on a much milder scale than _Farnham's Freehold_).
Jimmy Throxton, the only self-evident pale skin in the novel, is referred
to as 'pink.' There is one point in the novel that Jimmy protests
discrimination and when told to be serious reiterates the discrimination
charge and says he is serious. Jimmy seems an obvious candidate to this
reader for leadership, however no-one in the novel (not even Jimmy, himself)
considers him for a leadership position in the colony. And -- perhaps
most telling of all -- Jimmy is the comic relief.
Heinlein talked about this kind of racial reversal as far back as his
Devention GoH speech in 1941. Perhaps _Tunnel in the Sky_ implemented it.
The "Bedloe" crater where Manhattan used to be gives us a similar mechanism
for the universe of _Tunnel in the Sky_ as was used in _Farnham's Freehold_
to bring about this reversal.
--
Matt Hickman
Watch out for stobor.
- Robert A. Heinlein _Tunnel in the Sky_
lal_truckee
> lal_truckee <lal_t...@my-deja.com> wrote in message >
>
>>
>>Also Rod is talking about Caroline's "sudden death" characteristics when
>>he compares her to his sister the "Space Marine" (what was her service?)
>> - clearly not a racial comparison IMO.
>>
>
> No -- Rod mentions that Carol looks like his sister (although Carol is
> bigger). The comparison is physical, although skin color is not mentioned
Putting aside the adjacent passages about the women's "sudden death" characteristics, the comparison could be physical without negating my point.
A pertinent anecdote:
My boy just completed Marine boot camp. Parents and friends are invited to graduation ceremonies. We nervous parents and friends were all standing around waiting for the platoons to march up, worried that we wouldn't recognize our sons when they arrived. My wife and I struck up a conversation with our "neighbors" in the parent mob, who agreed that since all the recruits we had seen on base so far looked alike they were concerned about recognizing their son in the troop. After the platoons arrived, we all eventually found our respective sons. My boy spent considerable time introducing us to his special acquaintances among his rack-mates, including the son of this particular neighbor. With them standing side-by-side this particular "neighbor" and I again each independently noted how much the young men looked alike. Except, as the "neighbor" pointed out, his boy was browner, while mine was whiter. Other than that insignificant point, the men did look exactly alike. The notable d
ifferences in appearance among ALL the marines we met was height and age. Otherwise these men all "looked alike" in the appearance and bearing; their similarity was a real physical characteristic and not overshadowed by "race" which is truly insignificant.
IMO that's Heinlein's point: of the important characteristics that define similarity, race is the least, even if you are speaking of physical characteristics.
Caroline looked like Rod's sister because they both are instant death, trained people. Nothing else can or should be drawn from that passage, IMO.
Major oz
Congratulations to him........and to you and your wife.
You must be very proud.
cheers
oz