Much smaller and cheaper lunar colony idea
LV Poker Player
sufficient colony on the moon simply cannot happen. The idea of making it
totally self sufficient with no imports needed for maintenance is very
attractive, but the more I looked into what would be needed for startup, the
more I realized that it was totally impossible in financial and economic terms.
Now I have come up with a vastly scaled down proposal that might require a few
billion instead of a few hundred billion. I had to give up the goal of
immediate self sufficiency, but once established it should not need all that
much in the way of imports to survive. With care, most launches after startup
can concentrate on expanding the colony instead of basic maintenance supplies.
These can be sent as the budget allows, instead of trying to do everything at
once the way I first envisioned. They will also concentrate on specialized
equipment such as electronics; the colony should be able to produce its own
buildings and such in situ.
Lunar Colony Proposal
<Anything enclosed in brackets such as this will be deleted before any formal
submission. I would like anyone reading this to offer any critiques
whatsoever, from spelling and grammar errors, to style suggestions, to
suggestions as to how something might work in the colony. Let me know if I
have left out something that should be here, or if you think I am mistaken in
how something should be done, or anything like that.>
Introduction:
I think it is possible, feasible both financially and technically, and
desirable to put a small colony on the moon today using current boosters. The
rewards for doing this could be tremendous in terms of scientific research and
a boost to the economy. Any private organization that did this could be in a
position to reap financial rewards from this endeavor.
Section 1: What I Envision:
A small base could be set up to house a small number of colonists. Only
one person might be sent at the beginning. It is my intention that this base
be almost entirely self supporting, with minimal imports needed from Earth.
With care and planning, it should be possible to use Lunar raw materials for
almost everything needed to maintain this base, once it is established. I also
think it could be established with a reasonable number of launches of currently
existing boosters such as the Ariane 5. Once established, the colonist(s) can
expand this base using Lunar raw materials, and prepare for the arrival of new
colonists along with performing functions beyond mere survival. Survival does
have to be the top priority at the beginning.
Section 2: The Boosters
The Ariane 5 booster can put 4,500 kilograms into Lunar transfer orbit,
and the Russian Proton M can place 5,700 kg into Lunar transfer orbit. Other
launchers such as Atlas V and Titan IV could be considered. The Ariane costs
about $120 million per launch. Since multiple launches will be needed, perhaps
a volume discount could be arranged. This should keep the cost of the program
manageable, since designing a new booster would be very expensive. A small
scale base should be possible with several launches of existing boosters.
The Proton M has a higher payload capacity, and Russia has a chronic
foreign exchange shortage. If this project were to locate in Russia and use
the Proton, and spend a large amount of American dollars in doing so, the
Russian government might be very interested in providing a favorable
environment in exchange. I see problems though. Russia is very corrupt, and
payoffs might eat up any savings from the favorable environment. Also, I think
U. S. technology in some areas is more dependable. This can be studied.
Section 3: The Lander
A lander will have to be designed to fit the chosen booster. I think it
should be a modular design, so that it can be built in a manned or unmanned
configuration. I do not know how much it would cost to design this. I also do
not know how much of the 4,500 kg (assuming Ariane 5) would be lander (engines,
fuel, structure, and such) and how much could be actual payload.
When we design the manned version, we have to make a philosophical
decision. Will this be a one way trip, where the colonist(s) MUST succeed to
survive, or will they have evacuation capability? I don't think a return
capable lander could be made within the 4,500 kg limitation. It has to have
the engines and fuel to get into Earth return orbit, a heat shield, and a
landing system, probably parachuting into an ocean. There might still be a way
though. Multiple launches into Low Earth Orbit could be made, each with a
lander section, which is then assembled at a rendezvous point and flown to the
moon.
Another possibility would be to send a lander that can return, but send
cargo instead of the needed fuel. If evacuation is later needed, the fuel can
be sent in a cargo launch.
In the cargo configuration, the lander would be unmanned and
unpressurized, to give maximum cargo capacity. There would be no reason to
give these a return capability.
I don't know if a lander could be designed to carry more than one person,
given weight constraints. Even if it could, early in the program it would
probably be better to only send one person at a time so that needed cargo can
also be carried.
A possibility to be considered is to use the chosen booster to send a
combination lander and upper stage into Low Earth Orbit, then use this upper
stage to boost into lunar transfer orbit. This possibility can be studied to
determine if it could place more payload on the moon.
Section 5: The Base Itself:
I am going to assume that one person is sent in the beginning to build
the base. There would be advantages to sending more than one. For one thing,
in a hostile environment the "buddy system" is an excellent idea. Two or more
people could build the needed items faster than a single person could. The
advantage of one person is that he needs less room, less hydroponics, less life
support supplies, and fewer launches for all this. A lot would depend on the
colony budget, and this is another thing that should be carefully studied
before committing to this effort. I will assume that one person is sent for
now. I will refer to this person as "he" but it could be a woman.
This will probably start out as a bare toehold, but plans will be made to
expand it into an actual foothold, and we can hope that someday it becomes a
full blown colony. Before sending a manned mission, it will almost certainly
be necessary to send unmanned cargo flights to pre-position some supplies and
equipment. It might be a good idea to send a robot probe before anything else
to make sure the proposed area is suitable for the base.
Hydroponics will be needed, since it will be impractical to send food from
Earth. Studies will have to determine how much space will be needed for this
purpose. The initial colonist will need some work and sleeping area, although
this can probably be the same space.
It is possible that the initial habitat can be sent from Earth in one or
more landers. Then the colonist would assemble it, living in his lander until
it was built. Another possibility is to send the equipment needed to mine,
smelt, weld and work metal. Then he builds it from lunar raw material, once
again living in the lander until it is complete. Since this equipment will be
needed anyway to expand the base later, this might be the best way, if this can
be done in a reasonable time. Either way, the sections will probably be welded
together. Since this welding will almost certainly be electrical, it might be
necessary to set up the reactor or solar panels first. Since all this has to
be done in vacuum, he needs a pressure suit. It might be a good idea to send
two, just in case. Since he will be exploring polar craters in the hopes of
finding ice, at least one of them must be designed for extreme cold that is
close to absolute zero. Some way to transport the ice will be needed too.
Perhaps something similar to a RadioFlyer red wagon could be used, once again
designed for extreme cold.
This base should probably be buried under the lunar regolith for safety
and structural reasons. A meter or two (estimated, once again studies should
be made) of regolith will give protection from solar radiation and meteors.
This might make temperature control easier too. Since the habitat needs to be
pressurized, there will be outward force on the walls. Burying it could
provide a balancing inward force. Excavation equipment will be needed for
this, probably including some way to break up rocks if necessary. This might
be explosives that will work in a vacuum, or perhaps a jackhammer designed to
work in lunar conditions.
An airlock to the surface will be needed, along with a pump to save the
air. A tank for this saved air will be needed. Since the initial airlock will
be small, the tank will be small, and it might be easier to just send it from
Earth rather than building it on the moon. When larger structures with larger
airlocks are built, then the tanks should be built locally. I think just
letting the air escape is going to be too wasteful, even though oxygen will be
produced as a byproduct of smelting operations and in hydroponics. There are
other essentials in the air beyond oxygen that we would not want to escape each
time the airlock is used.
The atmosphere almost certainly should not be pure oxygen. Pure oxygen,
even at low pressure of around 4 or 5 pounds per square inch, is a serious fire
hazard. For this reason, some of the pressure should come from something else.
Nitrogen can be considered, especially since some plants can fix it into
hydroponics fertilizer. It does have the problem that sudden decompression can
result in nitrogen narcosis, or "the bends." It has been detected in trace
amounts on the moon, so it should be possible to extract it as needed (another
reason to save the air rather than letting it go each time the airlock is
used). Helium is another possibility. It is present in the trace lunar
atmosphere, but I do not know if it could be extracted. According to
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001842876_moonmine24.html
Helium 3 is present in the lunar crust in quantities that could be mined. It
is possible that all three of these should be part of the air mix. Carbon
dioxide is also needed, and I think that if it is present in the atmosphere in
larger amounts than on Earth, this would encourage plants to grow faster.
Power is going to be needed. Plants need lights, temperature control is
needed, and many other needs will be met by electricity. There seem to be two
ways we might obtain this power. One way would be solar panels, and the other
would be a nuclear reactor similar to those carried by some space probes. The
reactor has the advantage of not needing sunlight. It has the disadvantage
that it will be a long time before the colony is able to mine and refine fuel
for it. Not very much is needed though, so it might be practical to ship it
from Earth as needed. It might be possible to use a reactor for the initial
base, but then build solar panels as a backup system, to expand the colony once
the reactor is at full capacity, and to replace the reactor when needed.
Lights are needed for hydroponics and other purposes. It should be
possible to build them from lunar raw materials quite soon, although the first
few will have to come from Earth. It is also possible that glass fibers could
be used to bring in sunlight, but my guess is that electric lights would be
more practical..
If we use solar panels, it might be possible to locate the colony at a
lunar pole. According to
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/050499/new_lunar.html there are
locations at the south pole that are in almost continuous sunlight. Batteries
or fuel cells could be used to power the base when needed. Since the periods
of darkness are short, it might be possible to survive without power for that
length of time. Another advantage of a polar site is that polar craters are in
continuous darkness, and might contain ice. This would be a huge advantage
over importing water from Earth. The temperature is almost constant too, which
will be easier to deal with than day/night fluctuations. Depending on the
distance, power could be carried by wire or by microwave transmission. I think
wire would be best if the distance is not prohibitive. It should be possible
for the colonists to make their own wire quite soon, but making microwave
transmitters and receivers probably would not be possible. Keeping imports
from Earth to a minimum is needed to keep costs manageable. <Importado,
importado! I never TOUCH importado! - Wyoh in TMIAHM>
Once he has the habitat built and pressurized, and has power from a
reactor or solar panels, planting hydroponics will have to be a high priority.
As soon as possible, he should be eating things grown there instead of food
shipped from Earth, which means the first crop will consist mostly of fast
growth type plants. Lighting, temperature, carbon dioxide content, and plant
nutrients can all be optimized for fast growth. Bodily wastes will almost
certainly have to be used as hydroponics fertilizer, and anyone offended by
this would not make a suitable colonist. At some point plant products such as
rubber and cotton will have to be considered, but in the beginning food is what
is needed, along with oxygen. Plant nutrients will be needed. As with a lot
of other things, the initial ones will have to be sent from Earth, but as soon
as possible these should be made from lunar materials. Equipment to do so will
have to be sent. If ice is found in a polar crater oxygen would be less of a
priority.
A purely vegetarian diet might be possible in theory, but in practice I
think meat should be considered. Fish could be sent, especially the ones that
can be sent as eggs. Also, fertilized chicken eggs could be sent in an
incubator and scheduled to hatch shortly after arrival, since chickens have the
advantage of growing fast. Fish, eggs and poultry should make the diet more
varied and healthful.
He should be reaching the stage where survival is assured, and almost
everything he needs he is producing locally.
<I would dearly love to be this person, but it is impossible. Even if I were
the one with the money and calling the shots, I would not go, and it would not
be out of fear. I know this job is unsuited for me, much as I would love to do
it. It is not just a matter of life. The human race deserves the best chance
of colony survival, and that means someone other than me has to build it. Now
if I could finagle a way to get there after it has been built, I would jump at
the chance. This initial colonist has to be a jack of all trades, and the
master of quite a few of them.>
Section 5: Medium and Long Term Projects
After he has set up everything needed for immediate survival, and is
living off hydroponics instead of shipped food, quite a few things beyond mere
survival can be considered.
The initial habitat is good for one person, but we really hope that others
will be joining the colony. Mining, smelting, welding and metal working
equipment has already been mentioned. As soon as it looks like others will be
on the way, he should use it to either expand his habitat or build a new and
larger habitat. For safety reasons, multiple habitats are probably a good
idea. They might be connected by underground tunnels and airtight hatches.
Any large habitat should be compartmentalized for safety reasons in the event
of depressurization. A double hull might be a good idea too, with the space
between independently pressurized, and with sensors and alarms to warn of a
pressure drop. If solar panels are being used for power, more of these might
be needed. It should be possible to make them out of lunar raw materials. He
should expand hydroponics as needed so that food will be ready for the new
arrivals. Depending on the state of extraction with regard to carbon,
nitrogen, hydrogen and helium, new colonists might have to bring some of these
along. Shipping carbon is not a problem. If both hydrogen and nitrogen are
needed, these could be sent as ammonia (NH3), methane (NH4) or ammonium
chloride (NH4Cl). Ammonium chloride is probably the easiest to ship and would
require the lightest containment methods, which is important.
As for scientific research, one obvious area is astronomy. It should be
possible to make modest telescopes right away. Digital imaging equipment
should be sent so that images captured by these telescopes can be sent to Earth
by radio for analysis by professional astronomers. I don't know if this one
person could build a large telescope such as the 200 inch one at Mt. Palomar,
but he should build whatever he can, and plans should be made for large scale
construction later. With 1/6 g and no winds, it might not be all that hard to
build big ones.
Other areas of scientific research are open. Geology (or selenology,
perhaps) is another obvious area. Given the availability of vacuum, various
types of chemical research might be valuable. People on Earth can request by
radio the experiments and observations they would like done.
At some point, we can hope that various scientific agencies on Earth will
be interested in sending equipment for this colony to operate. It should be
possible to piggyback equipment and supplies with these launches.
Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is such an
all around useful material that I do not think there is any question that we
need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since they take a
while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should be
planted early due to the long growth time. Even if we don't have room for the
full grown trees, we can plan on expanding before the space is needed. Cotton
will almost certainly be needed, but since it grows fast it might not be on the
"plant early" list. Various plants such as cotton, tung, and soybeans produce
oils which will have many uses. Petroleum will not be available, so something
of this nature will be needed for lubrication. Some plants may be planted for
their medical uses.
Looking further into the future, it should be possible to build a mass
driver. This would use electricity to magnetize metal hoops placed in a row.
This could grab any metallic payload and give it a tremendous initial boost
without use of onboard propellant. With 1/6 g, no atmosphere, and a mass
driver for the initial boost, it should be possible to send large payloads
anywhere in the solar system. Scientific agencies on Earth might be interested
in sending very large probes to the moon, where they can be launched. For
really large ones, they might send them in sections, to be assembled by the
colonists then launched. Once again, equipment and supplies for the colony
might ride piggyback. The colony should be able to make fuel for these probes
too. Liquid hydrogen and oxygen are available if we find ice and could be used
in the initial launch after clearing the mass driver. These are unsuitable for
long term missions due to volatility, but perhaps other fuels suited for long
term missions could be made by the colonists too. Even if we do not find ice,
liquid oxygen can be made as a byproduct of smelting. As well as being used by
probes launched from the moon, it might be launched into Low Earth Orbit, where
it could rendezvous with rockets launched from Earth. This way, Earth launches
could carry payload instead of oxidizer.
It should be possible for the colonists to do more and more as time goes
on. At some point, it might be possible for people on Earth to just radio
specifications for the probe, and then the colonists build it. Once basic
survival is ensured, the Earth launches should concentrate on building
equipment rather than finished goods. Instead of sending computers, send the
equipment needed to build computers. Instead of sending a modern high speed
dental drill, send the equipment needed to build this drill. Instead of
sending digital cameras, send the equipment needed to build them. This will
not happen right away, but the goal should be that at some point, anything that
can be built on Earth can also be built on the moon. Once this happens, the
only thing sent from Earth would be people. When sending this equipment, they
will also need to send the people who know how to operate it, or instruct those
already there in how to use it.
I do not think it is necessary to send any vehicles to the moon, but the
colonists will almost certainly want to design and build their own vehicles at
some point. Experience should show what is needed and what will work.
With the mass driver and the ability to build probes themselves, we can
consider colonies in other places. It should be possible to set up colonies
just about anywhere with this launch capability. A space station in orbit
around the moon, or the Earth, or at a Lagrange point might be the first one
set up.
It might also be possible to set up a large solar panel farm, and use it
to beam energy to Earth as microwaves. Receivers on Earth could pick these up,
and power sales could be a significant revenue source. It might also be
possible to launch Solar Power Satellites into Earth orbit, even before we have
the mass driver available.
Manufacturing could be set up by private companies. Especially with the
mass driver available, it might be economical to manufacture certain things,
then ship them to Earth. This would be another source of revenue.
I don't think much plumbing will be needed in the early days, but once the
population is expanding this needs to be considered. All colonists will have
to be warned that bodily wastes fertilize hydroponics, and anyone offended had
better stay on Earth.
At some point a second colony can be considered. This will probably have
to be located near the first due to transportation considerations. Once
transportation is well developed, it should be possible to put colonies
anywhere on the moon.
I envision this as a permanent colonization effort, not just an outpost.
At some point, babies will be born. Once we know the colony can survive, women
should be encouraged to have babies. We should try to have medical staff and
facilities on hand before this delightful event occurs. As to exactly when
medical staff, equipment and supplies are sent, this has to be considered. The
initial colonists will probably have to get by with their own first aid
efforts, and whatever first aid supplies can be sent early. If we can find a
doctor who also has a needed skill such as electrician or metal worker or
welder or something like that, it would be fantastic. <Hey Chuck, if you want
to be the CMO of Luna City, learn something along these lines. J>
Section 6: Benefits Of This Proposal
I think this could be a tremendous scientific boon for the human race.
What can a lunar observatory find out, with no atmosphere to limit their
efforts? What would geological (selenological) research find out? What can
researchers find out when they have unlimited hard vacuum available? We don't
know, but it is a safe bet that we will find out a lot.
With unlimited solar power, the colony might someday supply most of
Earth's electricity, generated on the moon or by Solar Power Satellites
launched from the moon.
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_power_021031.html
By sending probes throughout the solar system, and following these with
manned colonization efforts, the scientific benefits would multiply. There
would be other benefits to having a human presence throughout the solar system.
No one catastrophe could wipe out the entire race the way it could now.
Something killed off the dinosaurs. That same something will be unable to kill
off humans once we are in space to stay.
Any country that did this would have huge advantages. England once had
world power and influence far in excess of anything justified by its size,
population or resources. This happened because they built their navy. This
analogy is not exact because we almost certainly will not find any natives to
rule and exploit the way England did. I think the analogy is a valid one
though. A country that rules space will have a huge advantage over any other
country that ignores space.
A private company or person should be able to make enough revenue to make
a profit. Especially after research gets going, patents and industrial
processes could bring in huge profits. Once the colony is big enough and
advanced enough to do manufacturing, it could make and sell the products
directly, or sell space to other companies. Power sales have already been
discussed. Use of the mass driver could bring in revenue. If two way space
travel becomes cheap enough, tourism should be a revenue source. The research
made possible by this colony just might bring the breakthroughs that would
reduce the cost of space travel.
<Delos put it this way: one thing that he would start shipping back from the
moon immediately would be knowledge.>
Section 7: Training and Simulation
Before launches start, it would be a good idea to set up training and
simulation. Candidates for the opportunity to build the initial base should go
through every procedure needed, simulating lunar conditions as closely as
possible. Several candidates should be in training, and then the best one
selected for the first launch. The others might follow in later manned
launches once the initial base is built and operating.
This will be an attempt to identify problems, and make sure that it is
actually possible to build this base under simulated lunar conditions. It
might identify things that sounded good in theory but that cannot be done in
practice. It might identify problems with one or more of the prospective
colonists that preclude him from colonizing.
Corners should not be cut in this procedure. Any money spent here will
almost certainly pay off in the long run.
Section 8: Items Hard To Find On the Moon
Carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen are all needed. Carbon is needed to form
carbon dioxide (CO2), which plants need for photosynthesis. Hydrogen is needed
to combine with oxygen to form water, unless we find ice in the polar craters.
Nitrogen is needed for hydroponics fertilizer. According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon carbon and nitrogen are present in the crust
in the amount of 100 parts per million each, and hydrogen is present at 50 PPM.
Studies would have to be undertaken to find out if these could be extracted in
useful amounts. The good news is that oxygen is present as 43% of the crust,
so we can obtain this, probably as a byproduct of smelting operations.
Hydrogen, ammonia (NH3), methane (NH4) and carbon dioxide (CO2) are all present
in the trace lunar atmosphere, but it is so rarefied that I doubt if any of
these could be extracted. This is another thing that could be studied.
We need some trace minerals in our diet, including iodine, phosphorus,
magnesium, zinc, selenium copper, manganese, and potassium. Some of these are
available on the moon, but not all of them. The ones that cannot be mined will
probably have to be shipped up in a large quantity, and carefully recycled.
Dead bodies of persons and animals might have to be converted to hydroponics
fertilizer in order to recycle these minerals, and anyone offended by that
would not make a good colonist.
Petroleum has many uses. The colony can use plant products mentioned
earlier for lubrication, but plastic may be more difficult. It should be
possible to get by with plastic items shipped from Earth for a while, but we do
not want to rely on this over the long term. Changing World Technologies in
Carthage, MO has developed the thermal depolymerization process to convert
organic material into oil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
Once oil has been made this way, it could be made into plastic. There might
be ways to use plant oils to make plastics, too.
Copper may not be absolutely essential, but it is certainly useful as a
conductor, and it is not available on the moon according to my online research.
Silver is an even better conductor, but it is also unavailable. I think the
colony can use substitutes for most applications. Aluminum has about 60% of
copper's conductivity, which is not all that wonderful but could still be used,
and it is available on the moon. The aluminum wiring would have to be
carefully installed to avoid too high of a current load. I don't think
aluminum could work in electric motors and transformers and such. Maybe copper
and silver would have to be shipped, then carefully rationed and conserved for
essential applications. When wiring for the initial colony base is sent, it
might as well be silver, might as well send the best. For the same reason,
lander wiring could be silver, since these could be cannibalized by the
colonists. I don't think use of silver will significantly increase the costs
of the project. Could an alloy of lunar materials be made that would be a good
conductor? Could the lunar landers be made partly out of brass, which could
later be smelted for its copper content? Could hull sections be made out of
brass, with the intent of later replacing them with colony produced hull
sections?
<Ok, everyone, tear it apart>
--
Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon...unless you're sure
you can get away with it.
jeanette
Seriously, has any research been done on purposely leaving people
isolated under extreme conditions?
Jeanette
charles krin
wrote:
>It does have the problem that sudden decompression can
>result in nitrogen narcosis, or "the bends."
see my other post on pressure and Trimix...Nitrogen Narcosis is not
the same as the Bends...
ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)
James Gifford
> My immediate reaction is you need a buddy in case you lock yourself out.
My immediate recollection is the cartoon of two astronauts floating outside
the shuttle: "What? I thought YOU had the keys!"
--
| James Gifford * FIX SPAMTRAP TO REPLY |
| So... your philosophy fits in a sig, does it? |
| Heinlein Pages Updated! See www.nitrosyncretic.com |
LV Poker Player
>>It does have the problem that sudden decompression can
>>result in nitrogen narcosis, or "the bends."
>
>see my other post on pressure and Trimix...Nitrogen Narcosis is not
>the same as the Bends...
Ok, I'll fix that.
LV Poker Player
>My immediate reaction is you need a buddy in case you lock yourself out.
>Seriously, has any research been done on purposely leaving people
>isolated under extreme conditions?
There is Antartica and the limits on when people can be evacuated (and the
woman with breast cancer who had to wait). That is the only modern example I
can think of. As pointed out by someone else, the colonies sent out by
Europeans were often "do or die, literally" efforts. They had a working
biosphere in their favor though, instead of having to build one from scratch.
Actually, your post did get me thinking. I may have let myself get into a
rigid mindset and one track thinking. That happens with Asperger Syndrome
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/ which is an autism spectrum disorder which
I have, for any newcomers here.
Anyway, I got on the mindset that hydroponics had to become self supporting as
quickly as possible. Not necessarily. Don't get me wrong, it does need to get
going, because we don't want to send very much food up out of Earth's gravity
well. Still, some delay might be acceptable.
This is one of the reasons I so strongly considered one person. Once we drop
the idea that hydroponics has to happen instantly, and go with the idea that we
do want to get it going quickly but not immediately, it might be more desirable
to send a small team for many reasons.
The limit I was looking at was that, say, with a team of four we would need
four times as much hydroponics. The initial habitat needs to be four times as
big. Well, now, wait a minute. We just build a habitat with work and sleeping
room, and those probably minimal. Now it does not need to be much bigger than
what would be needed for one person. In fact, this 4 person habitat without
hydroponics might be smaller than a one person habitat with hydroponics.
Working as a team, they can probably assemble it quite a bit faster than one
person could. Using equipment and tools launched from Earth in order to build
it from scratch out of lunar materials might be possible for a team, not
possible for a single person.
Once they have this initial habitat set up, THEN they need to get humping on an
expansion so that hydroponics can start producing. Even if the original
habitat was sent from Earth, it should be possible to build this expansion from
lunar material. After all, one of the main purposes of this colony is to
produce most of the things it needs, especially the mass intensive stuff like
structural materials. Until then, food from Earth will consist of stuff that
has high nutrition value for its weight.
Along with getting sufficient hydroponics going for food self sufficiency, this
will give them more living space, which they will probably appreciate. Until
they get the hydroponics expansion built, the only privacy will probably be
suiting up and going outside. This hydroponics expansion should probably
contain some private living quarters too (and the initial habitat can become
private quarters for a person or couple, perhaps.)
Several teams had better train together on Earth, extensively, and then the
best team selected. These people will have to get along VERY well with each
other until they have private quarters. Even after they have some private
quarters, they have to get along well.
One problem is with evacuation, if we decide that we will not strand them
there. Evacuating a team would be more challenging than evacuating one person.
I am going to revise it on this basis. A small team of three or four or
thereabouts is probably a better idea.
fadermcgee
"LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040202182506...@mb-m23.aol.com...
The jackhammer and explosives both require energy. Explosives are more
energy-dense, thus more effective, unless your task requres a small cut.
While ammonium chloride is probably the most efficient way to ship ammonia,
Ammonium nitrate is much more efficient once landed - it's a great
fertilizer
and can be mixed with medium-heavy oils to make a secondary explosive,
or with nitromethane to make a primary explosive.
<snip>
>
> Power is going to be needed. Plants need lights, temperature control
is
> needed, and many other needs will be met by electricity. There seem to be
two
> ways we might obtain this power. One way would be solar panels, and the
other
> would be a nuclear reactor similar to those carried by some space probes.
The
> reactor has the advantage of not needing sunlight. It has the
disadvantage
> that it will be a long time before the colony is able to mine and refine
fuel
> for it. Not very much is needed though, so it might be practical to ship
it
> from Earth as needed. It might be possible to use a reactor for the
initial
> base, but then build solar panels as a backup system, to expand the colony
once
> the reactor is at full capacity, and to replace the reactor when needed.
A SNAP-type nuclear reactor (which depends on thermocouples being heated
by beta-emitters like strontium-90) will run almost forever, but doesn't
provide
much power. You'd have to have some way to store energy - storage
batteries,
compress air by an electric pump on off-peak periods, then let the air out
through a turbine-driven dynamo; many other possibilities.
NASA has something called Project Prometheus that is an actual
nuclear-fission chain reactor (AFAIK) suitable for large robotic
missions or small manned ones. Power outputs range 100 - 500
kilowatts.
http://spacescience.nasa.gov/missions/prometheus.htm
The beauty of this project is that it's studying both thermocouple
generation and Stirling-cycle adiabatic engine-dynamo to create
a lot more energy than an existing technology SNAP generator.
Runs on Pu238 (should make Marvin the Martian ecstatic!) and
goes 14 years between refuelings.
> Lights are needed for hydroponics and other purposes. It should be
> possible to build them from lunar raw materials quite soon, although the
first
> few will have to come from Earth. It is also possible that glass fibers
could
> be used to bring in sunlight, but my guess is that electric lights would
be
> more practical..
What about light shafts and mirrors? It just seems counterintuitive to
generate power to create light on a Sunside.colony.
Soya products can provide needed protein.
> He should be reaching the stage where survival is assured, and
almost
> everything he needs he is producing locally.
>
> <I would dearly love to be this person, but it is impossible. Even if I
were
> the one with the money and calling the shots, I would not go, and it would
not
> be out of fear. I know this job is unsuited for me, much as I would love
to do
> it. It is not just a matter of life. The human race deserves the best
chance
> of colony survival, and that means someone other than me has to build it.
Now
> if I could finagle a way to get there after it has been built, I would
jump at
> the chance. This initial colonist has to be a jack of all trades, and the
> master of quite a few of them.>
We need a certification for JOATs - Jacks (or Jills) of All Trades.
Being a JOAT myself - wasn't a choice, I had JOATness thrust upon
me - I think that the contributions of my tribe are valuable.
<snip>
>. Depending on the state of extraction with regard to carbon,
> nitrogen, hydrogen and helium, new colonists might have to bring some of
these
> along. Shipping carbon is not a problem. If both hydrogen and nitrogen
are
> needed, these could be sent as ammonia (NH3), methane (NH4) or ammonium
> chloride (NH4Cl). Ammonium chloride is probably the easiest to ship and
would
> require the lightest containment methods, which is important.
Ammonium nitrate is easier to use at the landing point.
> As for scientific research, one obvious area is astronomy. It should
be
> possible to make modest telescopes right away. Digital imaging equipment
> should be sent so that images captured by these telescopes can be sent to
Earth
> by radio for analysis by professional astronomers. I don't know if this
one
> person could build a large telescope such as the 200 inch one at Mt.
Palomar,
> but he should build whatever he can, and plans should be made for large
scale
> construction later. With 1/6 g and no winds, it might not be all that
hard to
> build big ones.
You can use many smaller mirrors with the proper imaging software to
approximate the performance of a large single mirror. Givent the
existence of seismic activity - "moonquakes" - such software would
probably be a good idea, anyway.
> Other areas of scientific research are open. Geology (or selenology,
> perhaps) is another obvious area. Given the availability of vacuum,
various
> types of chemical research might be valuable. People on Earth can request
by
> radio the experiments and observations they would like done.
>
> At some point, we can hope that various scientific agencies on Earth
will
> be interested in sending equipment for this colony to operate. It should
be
> possible to piggyback equipment and supplies with these launches.
This solves Hubble-type problems - a real JOAT supplied with a moderately
complete tool room might be able to fix all kinds of things that gor
therbligged
back on Earth.
> Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is such
an
> all around useful material that I do not think there is any question that
we
> need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since they
take a
> while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should be
> planted early due to the long growth time. Even if we don't have room for
the
> full grown trees, we can plan on expanding before the space is needed.
Cotton
> will almost certainly be needed, but since it grows fast it might not be
on the
> "plant early" list. Various plants such as cotton, tung, and soybeans
produce
> oils which will have many uses. Petroleum will not be available, so
something
> of this nature will be needed for lubrication. Some plants may be planted
for
> their medical uses.
Might it not be better to use vats of tailored bacteria to produce these
products?
That gets the lone adventurer(s) the time back that planting, harvesting,
and
processing the crops would otherwise take. Perhaps 1/6 gravity will
increase
product yield from fermentation.
<snip>
> Petroleum has many uses. The colony can use plant products mentioned
> earlier for lubrication, but plastic may be more difficult. It should be
> possible to get by with plastic items shipped from Earth for a while, but
we do
> not want to rely on this over the long term. Changing World Technologies
in
> Carthage, MO has developed the thermal depolymerization process to convert
> organic material into oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
> Once oil has been made this way, it could be made into plastic. There
might
> be ways to use plant oils to make plastics, too.
Jojoba should be evaluated for viability - tbe oil can be used as a
lubricant and
fuel, and the plant grows in the Sonoran desert. Creosote and soybean also
should be tried as sources of hydrocarbons.
The major advantage to the Changing World machine is that it
processes ANYTHING organic - might be a great way to process human
waste into more useful things.
<snip>
charles krin
<vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote:
>
>Jojoba should be evaluated for viability - tbe oil can be used as a
>lubricant and
>fuel, and the plant grows in the Sonoran desert. Creosote and soybean also
>should be tried as sources of hydrocarbons.
Castor oil is also a significant source of a known polymerizing
oil...not to mention having decent lubrication and at least one
medical application...
but what would you do with the ricin laced bean meal afterwards?
jeanette
Antarctica is probably a good study for a group that is isolated. I was
concerned about one person and the feeling of absolutely no help at all
for three days. It just seems that one person alone is more likely to
die of some stupid little mistake with no hope for help for three days.
I know that stupid little mistakes will also kill many people.
You are concerned with private space. How much privacy is there in the
space shuttle? The space station is bigger but how much? People have
stayed there for a long time. I also mentioned before looking at living
in submarines. Not much space there and outside environment could be as
deadly.
Jeanette
LV Poker Player
>This won't matter as much since you have decided to send more people.
It is not exactly a matter of DECIDING, as such. The only thing I am really
deciding is how to write a text file at this point. I am going to write it
with more emphasis on the idea of a small team, but still mention the idea of
sending a single person, even though it looks less attractive than it did at
first glance.
>Antarctica is probably a good study for a group that is isolated. I was
>concerned about one person and the feeling of absolutely no help at all
>for three days. It just seems that one person alone is more likely to
>die of some stupid little mistake with no hope for help for three days.
>I know that stupid little mistakes will also kill many people.
No argument, and even in the first draft that I posted did mention that the
buddy system has many advantages.
>You are concerned with private space. How much privacy is there in the
>space shuttle? The space station is bigger but how much? People have
>stayed there for a long time. I also mentioned before looking at living
>in submarines. Not much space there and outside environment could be as
>deadly.
These analogies are limited. The people we send are not going stay on the moon
for "a long time." We intend for this to be a permanent colony, and that they
stay there for the rest of their lives. Even if we give them lifeboat
capability, the intent is still a permanent settlement.
I am just looking at the startup colony. ESPECIALLY if we ship the original
habitat prefab from Earth, it is going to be as small as possible. There will
be two ways to counter this though. One is that this will be a small, highly
trained group of people who know what to expect in part because they have
trained together under conditions simulating lunar conditions as much as
possible. The other is that the crowding and lack of privacy will not be
permanent. As I mentioned, they need cubic to plant hydroponics. It would not
take much additional effort to make this second habitat a little larger than
strictly necessary for hydroponics, so that private living quarters become
available. After a year or two up there, they can probably have living
quarters as big as they want. For the first few weeks or so, this group had
better have a lot of experience and training in how to get along in tight
quarters. As you point out, this is done other places. It is done by people
with a lot of training though, not by amateurs. We had better look at how the
space station crews, the shuttle crews and submarine crews train to handle
this.
Howard Berkowitz
For the first few weeks or so, this group
> had
> better have a lot of experience and training in how to get along in tight
> quarters. As you point out, this is done other places. It is done by
> people
> with a lot of training though, not by amateurs. We had better look at
> how the
> space station crews, the shuttle crews and submarine crews train to
> handle
> this.
Don't limit the scope to specialized technical groups in traditional
Western cultures. Quite a number of anthropologists feel that many
Japanese customs, especially in the household, evolved as a means of
coping in extremely tight quarters. ISTR a proverb that translates as
"nudity is noticed but it is not seen", or it may be the other way
around.
Not that it's been a formal survey, but when I'm in surgical units and
other medical facilities, there seems to be more of a trend to unisex
dressing rooms.
Edward T. Hall has written quite a bit on the anthropolgical concept of
"proxemics", calling one of his books _The Hidden Dimension_. Different
cultures have distinctly different distances at which conversation is
comfortable. This is sometimes amusingly noticeable at cocktail parties,
where, for example, you have a Nordic and an Arab person trying to talk.
The former tends to be most comfortable with a separation of a couple of
feet, while some Arabs speak approvingly of being able to feel the other
person's body heat or breath. The two will unknowingly dance around the
room, one advancing and one retreating.
Not completely unrelated is the work of Ken(?) Grossman,
www.killology.com. Grossman is a retired Army officer, now an academic,
who has examined extensively the role of distance in violence --
especially in military combat. Obviously, it's a different experience to
kill someone by strangling them versus dropping a bomb on a target
identified only as a sensor reading. He also looks at the aspect of
group dynamics: there are far fewer reported incidents of, say, a
machine gun crew not firing or not trying to hit, as opposed to riflemen
avoiding killing. The larger the crew, the easier violence becomes.
Norman Bullen
I was seated in first class on a cross-country flight about two years
ago, when the airlines and airframe manufacturers were still settling
into the post-911 security requirements.
One of the two cockpit crewmembers must have been ill as he came out
several times during the flight to use the first class rest room. Each
time this happened the flight attendant in first class had to call one
of the other flight attendants to come up front. The two of them would
turn a service cart sideways to barricade the short passage between the
first class cabin and the cockpit and hold it there until the pilot
returned to the cockpit.
My guess is that they didn't want to lock the cockpit from the inside
while only one pilot was in there as there would then be no way for the
other pilot to get back in, should the first pilot become incapacitated.
Norm
LV Poker Player
>energy-dense, thus more effective, unless your task requres a small cut.
There are two competing considerations here. If you send explosives, they are
gone after you use them. If you send a jackhammer, you still have it after
using it. The other consideration is that no matter how many people we send,
we really want this initial base to get built fast. I am guessing the
jackhammer should be sent, along with some explosives to clear away any really
tough rock formations we hit in a hurry. Then again, getting it built is the
priority. Getting it buried is a good idea but less urgent. It probably won't
be all that big, and with 1/6 gravity it can probably be put in the hole with
muscle power.
>While ammonium chloride is probably the most efficient way to ship ammonia,
>Ammonium nitrate is much more efficient once landed - it's a great
>fertilizer
>and can be mixed with medium-heavy oils to make a secondary explosive,
>or with nitromethane to make a primary explosive.
I mentioned sending plant food for hydroponics, but I can mention ammonium
nitrate here too.
>> Lights are needed for hydroponics and other purposes. It should be
>> possible to build them from lunar raw materials quite soon, although the
>first
>> few will have to come from Earth. It is also possible that glass fibers
>could
>> be used to bring in sunlight, but my guess is that electric lights would
>be
>> more practical..
>
>What about light shafts and mirrors? It just seems counterintuitive to
>generate power to create light on a Sunside.colony.
I agree. It was parochialism, I am just more familiar with how lights work
than I am with how we could pipe in sunlight directly. I have deleted that
last phrase.
>Soya products can provide needed protein.
>
I can include this as a possibility. I know some plant proteins are less
complete than animal proteins, and any purely vegetarian diet has to be
carefully planned to include everything needed. Sending eggs of both fish and
chickens should not be all that difficult, and unless we can find a person who
is vegetarian by choice AND has the needed qualifications, we might have
difficulties with a purely vegetarian diet. If we send a team instead of an
individual, it gets even harder to find the right people.
>> Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is such
>an
>> all around useful material that I do not think there is any question that
>we
>> need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since they
>take a
>> while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should be
>> planted early due to the long growth time. Even if we don't have room for
>the
>> full grown trees, we can plan on expanding before the space is needed.
>Cotton
>> will almost certainly be needed, but since it grows fast it might not be
>on the
>> "plant early" list. Various plants such as cotton, tung, and soybeans
>produce
>> oils which will have many uses. Petroleum will not be available, so
>something
>> of this nature will be needed for lubrication. Some plants may be planted
>for
>> their medical uses.
>
>Might it not be better to use vats of tailored bacteria to produce these
>products?
Possibly. I know very little about the subject. I can include a reference to
studying this possibility. We would certainly rather have this person or team
doing scientific type things as much as possible.
Jamie Hart
Good to see you haven't given up on this. I've snipped a lot, leaving only
stuff I want to comment on.
>
> An airlock to the surface will be needed, along with a pump to save
the
> air. A tank for this saved air will be needed. Since the initial airlock
will
> be small, the tank will be small, and it might be easier to just send it
from
> Earth rather than building it on the moon. When larger structures with
larger
> airlocks are built, then the tanks should be built locally. I think just
> letting the air escape is going to be too wasteful, even though oxygen
will be
> produced as a byproduct of smelting operations and in hydroponics. There
are
> other essentials in the air beyond oxygen that we would not want to escape
each
> time the airlock is used.
>
I don't see a tank being required, except possibly for safety reasons, I
would envision the air being pumped out of the airlock and back into the
interior of the building. Assuming the interior of the building is
sufficiently larger than the airlock, the air pressure would not fluctuate
too much whilst operating the airlock. Obviously, the airlock and
atmosphere pump would need designing to be failsafe, but this should not be
undoable.
> The atmosphere almost certainly should not be pure oxygen. Pure
oxygen,
> even at low pressure of around 4 or 5 pounds per square inch, is a serious
fire
> hazard. For this reason, some of the pressure should come from something
else.
> Nitrogen can be considered, especially since some plants can fix it into
> hydroponics fertilizer. It does have the problem that sudden
decompression can
> result in nitrogen narcosis, or "the bends." It has been detected in
trace
> amounts on the moon, so it should be possible to extract it as needed
(another
> reason to save the air rather than letting it go each time the airlock is
> used). Helium is another possibility. It is present in the trace lunar
> atmosphere, but I do not know if it could be extracted. According to
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001842876_moonmine24.html
> Helium 3 is present in the lunar crust in quantities that could be mined.
It
> is possible that all three of these should be part of the air mix. Carbon
> dioxide is also needed, and I think that if it is present in the
atmosphere in
> larger amounts than on Earth, this would encourage plants to grow faster.
>
Unfortunately larger amounts of Carbon dioxide can be bad for us humans, and
besides, it's a product of our respiration. I think you would have more
trouble keeping the percentage down rather than needing to increase it.
> Lights are needed for hydroponics and other purposes. It should be
> possible to build them from lunar raw materials quite soon, although the
first
> few will have to come from Earth. It is also possible that glass fibers
could
> be used to bring in sunlight, but my guess is that electric lights would
be
> more practical..
>
This is assuming that the initial hydroponics area would be underground. I
propose that a surface installation would be more effective. Why use
sunlight to generate electricity just to turn around and use that
electricity to generate light. A surface installation obviously is at more
risk than one buried under the regolith, however in the initial stages of
the colony it may well be worth the risk.
> Once he has the habitat built and pressurized, and has power from a
> reactor or solar panels, planting hydroponics will have to be a high
priority.
> As soon as possible, he should be eating things grown there instead of
food
> shipped from Earth,
I wonder whether a prefabricated hydroponics shelter could be shipped up
from earth. I envision a double walled inflatable tunnel, which could be
shipped up and inflated with whatever gas could be most easily shipped or
recovered from local materials. Not sure if the fairly flimsy construction
would be adaquate for this, but it would mean that the hydroponics could be
up and running even before work started on the main colony.
Once the main colony shelters are constructed, the Hydroponics equipment can
be brought in and the tunnel scavenged for usable materials.
> Section 5: Medium and Long Term Projects
>
> After he has set up everything needed for immediate survival, and is
> living off hydroponics instead of shipped food, quite a few things beyond
mere
> survival can be considered.
>
> The initial habitat is good for one person, but we really hope that
others
> will be joining the colony. Mining, smelting, welding and metal working
> equipment has already been mentioned. As soon as it looks like others
will be
> on the way, he should use it to either expand his habitat or build a new
and
> larger habitat. For safety reasons, multiple habitats are probably a good
> idea. They might be connected by underground tunnels and airtight
hatches.
I would think that the initial design iof the habitat should take into
account that it will probably be better to build larger than needed
initially. I.e. the first colonist would build maybe a three man habitat,
even if two thirds of it are shut off and unpressurised. Once two more
colonists arrive, the unused sections could be pressurised and used.
Once the are three colonists, they can begin building other similar sized
habitats to house further colonists.
>
> Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is such
an
> all around useful material that I do not think there is any question that
we
> need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since they
take a
> while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should be
> planted early due to the long growth time.
Various types of wood may be usefull, but I would not see them being planted
in the early stages of the colony, however, something faster growing such as
bamboo would be usefull in the early stages. most types are edible ( when
the shoots are young) and can provide a wood like product once matured.
> Even if we don't have room for the
> full grown trees, we can plan on expanding before the space is needed.
Cotton
> will almost certainly be needed, but since it grows fast it might not be
on the
> "plant early" list. Various plants such as cotton, tung, and soybeans
produce
> oils which will have many uses. Petroleum will not be available, so
something
> of this nature will be needed for lubrication. Some plants may be planted
for
> their medical uses.
Whatever plants are used, they should all have at least two used, soybeans
are edible and also produce oil, Cotton on the other hand is only used for
making thread, maybe production of a synthetic would yield better results.
The rest is snipped as being so far ranged it would be pointless to try to
say what would be possible and what wouldn't.
Jamie Hart
> >The jackhammer and explosives both require energy. Explosives are more
> >energy-dense, thus more effective, unless your task requres a small cut.
>
> There are two competing considerations here. If you send explosives, they
are
> gone after you use them. If you send a jackhammer, you still have it
after
> using it. The other consideration is that no matter how many people we
send,
> we really want this initial base to get built fast. I am guessing the
> jackhammer should be sent, along with some explosives to clear away any
really
> tough rock formations we hit in a hurry. Then again, getting it built is
the
> priority. Getting it buried is a good idea but less urgent. It probably
won't
> be all that big, and with 1/6 gravity it can probably be put in the hole
with
> muscle power.
>
jackhammer. Don't they use their own weight to help do the work?
charles krin
<theodor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Whatever plants are used, they should all have at least two used, soybeans
>are edible and also produce oil, Cotton on the other hand is only used for
>making thread, maybe production of a synthetic would yield better results.
actually, cotton seed also yields an oil useful for organic feedstock
and lubrication, and both cottonseed and soybeans yield high quality
protein meal for livestock (such as chickens and rabbits) feed.
LV Poker Player
>> An airlock to the surface will be needed, along with a pump to save
>the
>> air. A tank for this saved air will be needed. Since the initial airlock
>will
>> be small, the tank will be small, and it might be easier to just send it
>from
>> Earth rather than building it on the moon. When larger structures with
>larger
>> airlocks are built, then the tanks should be built locally. I think just
>> letting the air escape is going to be too wasteful, even though oxygen
>will be
>> produced as a byproduct of smelting operations and in hydroponics. There
>are
>> other essentials in the air beyond oxygen that we would not want to escape
>each
>> time the airlock is used.
>>
>I don't see a tank being required, except possibly for safety reasons, I
>would envision the air being pumped out of the airlock and back into the
>interior of the building. Assuming the interior of the building is
>sufficiently larger than the airlock, the air pressure would not fluctuate
>too much whilst operating the airlock. Obviously, the airlock and
>atmosphere pump would need designing to be failsafe, but this should not be
>undoable.
I thought of this, and it depends on the exact circumstances. As long as we
only have one person, this would probably work. Jeannette convinced me that a
small team would almost certainly be a better idea though. This first habitat
will be small, and perhaps not all THAT much bigger than the airlock. It
depends on whether it is sent prefab from Earth or built from scractch from
luar materials. If sent from Earth, it will be as small as humanly possible,
and maybe a little smaller. We might be looking at some severe pressure
changes, perhaps more than would be healthy. If we only have one person, that
is not a problem. If this first habitat can be made on the spot while the team
lives in lander(s), then maybe it could be made large enough for this to work.
>It
>> is possible that all three of these should be part of the air mix. Carbon
>> dioxide is also needed, and I think that if it is present in the
>atmosphere in
>> larger amounts than on Earth, this would encourage plants to grow faster.
>>
>Unfortunately larger amounts of Carbon dioxide can be bad for us humans, and
>besides, it's a product of our respiration. I think you would have more
>trouble keeping the percentage down rather than needing to increase it.
Like just about everything else, a design team would have to determine the
optimal amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. We can determine the amount that is
short of what would harm human health, and keep it within those limits.
>> Lights are needed for hydroponics and other purposes. It should be
>> possible to build them from lunar raw materials quite soon, although the
>first
>> few will have to come from Earth. It is also possible that glass fibers
>could
>> be used to bring in sunlight, but my guess is that electric lights would
>be
>> more practical..
>>
>This is assuming that the initial hydroponics area would be underground. I
>propose that a surface installation would be more effective. Why use
>sunlight to generate electricity just to turn around and use that
>electricity to generate light. A surface installation obviously is at more
>risk than one buried under the regolith, however in the initial stages of
>the colony it may well be worth the risk.
Well...maybe. Another one for our hypothetical design team to look at, along
with the possiblity you mention of a temporary inflatable hydroponics module.
>> After he has set up everything needed for immediate survival, and is
>> living off hydroponics instead of shipped food, quite a few things beyond
>mere
>> survival can be considered.
>>
>> The initial habitat is good for one person, but we really hope that
>others
>> will be joining the colony. Mining, smelting, welding and metal working
>> equipment has already been mentioned. As soon as it looks like others
>will be
>> on the way, he should use it to either expand his habitat or build a new
>and
>> larger habitat. For safety reasons, multiple habitats are probably a good
>> idea. They might be connected by underground tunnels and airtight
>hatches.
>
>I would think that the initial design iof the habitat should take into
>account that it will probably be better to build larger than needed
>initially. I.e. the first colonist would build maybe a three man habitat,
>even if two thirds of it are shut off and unpressurised. Once two more
>colonists arrive, the unused sections could be pressurised and used.
>
>Once the are three colonists, they can begin building other similar sized
>habitats to house further colonists.
Once again, the concept of a small team instead of a single person is looking
more attractive at this point. And the question remains whether the initial
habitat is sent prefab from Earth or built on site from lunar materials. The
second is definitely best if it can be done in a reasonable time, but that is
quite an "if." Then we need to look at how much longer it would take to build
something bigger.
>> Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is such
>an
>> all around useful material that I do not think there is any question that
>we
>> need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since they
>take a
>> while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should be
>> planted early due to the long growth time.
>
>Various types of wood may be usefull, but I would not see them being planted
>in the early stages of the colony, however, something faster growing such as
>bamboo would be usefull in the early stages. most types are edible ( when
>the shoots are young) and can provide a wood like product once matured.
I was lumping bamboo in with wood in my mind.
>> Even if we don't have room for the
>> full grown trees, we can plan on expanding before the space is needed.
>Cotton
>> will almost certainly be needed, but since it grows fast it might not be
>on the
>> "plant early" list. Various plants such as cotton, tung, and soybeans
>produce
>> oils which will have many uses. Petroleum will not be available, so
>something
>> of this nature will be needed for lubrication. Some plants may be planted
>for
>> their medical uses.
>
>Whatever plants are used, they should all have at least two used, soybeans
>are edible and also produce oil, Cotton on the other hand is only used for
>making thread, maybe production of a synthetic would yield better results.
Maybe. How hard is it to make synthetic fibers and thread? I was thinking that
each colonist should arrive with a few sets of lightweight, durable clothing
probably based on artificial fibers. Then they get by with these for a few
years or so, postponing the need for clothing manufacture. The temperature
could be adjusted so the colony is clothing optional indoors.
LV Poker Player
Hmm...had not thought of this. That could be bad news. Would making it six
times heavier work? The extra weight would not have to be shipped, a hamper
could be designed into it to contain some rocks. This does mean six times
higher inertia, which could be bad news. Is there some other way to break up
rocks in a reasonable amount of time? Is there an explosive that could be made
out of lunar materials? I am partly looking at this initial habitat, but also
looking at long term, when we want to expand this from a base to an actual
colony, with lots of people and cubic. If we were only looking at the initial
habitat, I would say that a few kilos of explosive would be just fine.
Pete LaGrange
>>Remember that 1/6th gravity will also effect the usefullness of your
>>jackhammer. Don't they use their own weight to help do the work?
>
> Hmm...had not thought of this. That could be bad news. Would making it
> six times heavier work? The extra weight would not have to be shipped, a
> hamper could be designed into it to contain some rocks. This does mean
> six times higher inertia, which could be bad news. Is there some other
> way to break up rocks in a reasonable amount of time? Is there an
> explosive that could be made out of lunar materials? I am partly looking
> at this initial habitat, but also looking at long term, when we want to
> expand this from a base to an actual colony, with lots of people and
> cubic. If we were only looking at the initial habitat, I would say that a
> few kilos of explosive would be just fine.
Having had some small experience with the tool commonly known as a
"jackhammer" I can tell you that they operate based on mass and not
weight, pretty much like a regular hammer. I'd think that it'd work just
as well (perhaps better since you could hold it up six times as long)
providing the operators reduced weight doesn't allow him (her) to be
knocked off his feet.
--
Pete LaGrange
jeanette
done on fibers for uniforms for various occupations. Comfort is a
factor. Polyester lasts almost forever, but it doesn't "breath" so I
don't like it for blouses.
If you can make thread, you can make fabrics. A lot of synthetics are
thermoplastic and are extruded as fibers and then woven. They could
also be molded into a shape or as a flat sheet of fabric. Partly it is
chemistry.
I don't remember if you have addressed paper. You could plan to make
recyclable paper clothing. There were paper dresses in the late 60's
and some hospital gowns are disposable.
How to clean reusable clothing is something to think about. Our pioneer
ancestors didn't much but they also had wide open spaces. How does a
submarine smell at the end of a voyage?
I would suggest looking at what is done on the space station. They are
not making their own but they have some ideas for what is necessary.
Jeanette
Jamie Hart
> >rom: "Jamie Hart"
above, I was thinking of the one colonist idea.
> >It
> >> is possible that all three of these should be part of the air mix.
Carbon
> >> dioxide is also needed, and I think that if it is present in the
> >atmosphere in
> >> larger amounts than on Earth, this would encourage plants to grow
faster.
> >>
> >Unfortunately larger amounts of Carbon dioxide can be bad for us humans,
and
> >besides, it's a product of our respiration. I think you would have more
> >trouble keeping the percentage down rather than needing to increase it.
>
> Like just about everything else, a design team would have to determine the
> optimal amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. We can determine the amount that
is
> short of what would harm human health, and keep it within those limits.
>
No problem there, but remember that it has to be a balance between amount of
CO2 breathed out by the colonists and amount of CO2 taken in by the
hydroponics. Too many plants can be almost as bad as too few. That's one of
the problems people have found setting up closed ecologies.
>
> >> Hydroponics should start growing more than just food. Rubber is
such
> >an
> >> all around useful material that I do not think there is any question
that
> >we
> >> need it. Rubber trees should be planted as soon as feasible, since
they
> >take a
> >> while to grow. Wood of various types will also be useful, and should
be
> >> planted early due to the long growth time.
> >
> >Various types of wood may be usefull, but I would not see them being
planted
> >in the early stages of the colony, however, something faster growing such
as
> >bamboo would be usefull in the early stages. most types are edible (
when
> >the shoots are young) and can provide a wood like product once matured.
>
> I was lumping bamboo in with wood in my mind.
>
The advantage of bamboo is that it is both edible, and grows quickly.
Simple synthetic fibres like polyester are fairly easy to make and the cost
of shipping the chemicals used would not be prohibitive. See
http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/petsyn.htm for a simple explanation of making
polyester. I appologise for the tone of the website, it's written for a
younger audience than us, but it does give the essentials.
LV Poker Player
>I don't remember if you have addressed paper. You could plan to make
>recyclable paper clothing. There were paper dresses in the late 60's
>and some hospital gowns are disposable.
Not directly, no, but I have mentioned plant products other than food. I don't
think ANYTHING will be disposable, at least not at the beginning. As for
recyclable, this can be considered, but I am guessing that it is the wrong way
to go. Remember, this is small scale, unlike my original idea to put a large
colony on the moon. I still like the original idea, but unless we wave a magic
wand and suddenly discover a cheap way to launch large payloads, it won't
happen. I think disposable and even recyclable goods of any sort depend on
mass manufacturing techniques to be viable?
>How to clean reusable clothing is something to think about. Our pioneer
>ancestors didn't much but they also had wide open spaces. How does a
>submarine smell at the end of a voyage?
>I would suggest looking at what is done on the space station. They are
>not making their own but they have some ideas for what is necessary.
Yes, we definitely need to look at how the space station does things, and how
things are done on submarines. There is no point in trying to reinvent the
wheel. A small washing machine is one possibility. Hand washing in a sink is
another, but I don't like it at first glance. These people are supposed to be
doing astronomical and selenological research, and building new cubic for
immigrants, and such, not standing at a sink washing clothes.
This is a concept that the hypothetical design team has to study. How much
labor saving equipment such as a washing machine should be sent? Launching
anything is not cheap. If it can be made small and light, and results in
significant labor savings, it is definitely a strong candidate for being sent,
whatever "it" may be.
Personal hygeine, including clothes washing, is something that I really had not
thought of when writing this. Once again, one of the reasons for posting this
is to have these things pointed out.
David Wright
> >From: wolfj
>
(snip)
>
> >How to clean reusable clothing is something to think about. Our pioneer
> >ancestors didn't much but they also had wide open spaces. How does a
> >submarine smell at the end of a voyage?
>
> >I would suggest looking at what is done on the space station. They are
> >not making their own but they have some ideas for what is necessary.
>
> Yes, we definitely need to look at how the space station does things, and
how
> things are done on submarines. There is no point in trying to reinvent
the
> wheel. A small washing machine is one possibility. Hand washing in a
sink is
> another, but I don't like it at first glance. These people are supposed
to be
> doing astronomical and selenological research, and building new cubic for
> immigrants, and such, not standing at a sink washing clothes.
>
Maybe the idea that RAH used in "Misfit" would work. Expose the clothing to
vacuum and then brush them hard. Of course, that was to clean used 'organic'
material. Maybe it's no good for ordinary dirt :-)
--
David Wright
Anytime is a good time to join The Heinlein Society
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jeanette
addressed.
One disadvantage to the exposing things to vacuum idea is that you will
be throwing away air and whatever else that might be better recycled
into the food chain. Over a long term will these contaminate the moon
surface?
We are encouraged to use less water and environmentally safe cleaners
now. I think the moon colony will need to use almost no water for
cleaning and "no impact" cleaners. Rashes can be caused by cleaning
products or their lack of use. Again, I suggest finding out what is
done on the space station.
Reflection time--I have recently read two book. One placed in the New
Guinea highlands, the other in the Congo. Both were partly addressing
the effects of "civilization". Many of the pictures in the New Guinea
book showed people, who materially are very close to the stone age,
dressed in Western garments--not necessary a complete outfit--standing
next to others wearing less than what can be shown on broadcast
television in the USA. Neither book was making a point of the clothing
but both seemed to imply that it was the Christian missionaries
encouraging covering up and providing clothing.
How dressed do people have to be? How much is for personal modesty and
how much for physical comfort? I understand that etiquette in nudist
resorts requires carrying a towel to sit on. On the other side,
equipment and outside clothing needs to be protected from "body soil" (a
lovely term I picked up a few months ago from some (detergent?)
commercial).
I think you are going to have to include a textile expert and
dermatologist on your planning team.
Jeanette
LV Poker Player
>One disadvantage to the exposing things to vacuum idea is that you will
>be throwing away air and whatever else that might be better recycled
>into the food chain. Over a long term will these contaminate the moon
>surface?
I would say the first is a FAR more important concern than the second. It
seems like both could be solved by taking the clothing into the airlock and
pumping, then brushing, then repressurizing without ever opening the outer
door.
Maybe SOMEDAY we can think about actually terraforming the moon. Until we get
to the point where this is seriously considered, is there really any reason to
worry about contaminating the surface?
As to whether or not vacuum and brushing is sufficient to clean clothes, I
don't know. Does anyone happen to know what they do about these things on the
space station?
>We are encouraged to use less water and environmentally safe cleaners
>now. I think the moon colony will need to use almost no water for
>cleaning and "no impact" cleaners. Rashes can be caused by cleaning
>products or their lack of use. Again, I suggest finding out what is
>done on the space station.
What has to be controlled is water loss. Usage in the colony should not be a
problem, as long is it is reclaimed and recycled. As to personal washing,
showers and baths and such, we might have to be somewhat careful, since we need
to control the humidity. Until we have shower or bath facilities, sponge baths
will probably have to do. Yes, I think the shower/bath facilities should be
built from lunar materials rather than shipped out of a gravity well. Maybe
send a shower head from Earth, and build the rest. Still, as long as we work
out a way to avoid steaming up the entire colony, I don't see that it matters
how much water goes down the shower drain and is then reclaimed.
We might have two separate water systems, potable and nonpotable. Then again,
with vacuum available for easy distillation, this might be unnecessary. Either
way, as with some other things, anyone offended by the idea of drinking
reclaimed water had better stay on Earth.
>Reflection time--I have recently read two book. One placed in the New
>Guinea highlands, the other in the Congo. Both were partly addressing
>the effects of "civilization". Many of the pictures in the New Guinea
>book showed people, who materially are very close to the stone age,
>dressed in Western garments--not necessary a complete outfit--standing
>next to others wearing less than what can be shown on broadcast
>television in the USA. Neither book was making a point of the clothing
>but both seemed to imply that it was the Christian missionaries
>encouraging covering up and providing clothing.
I have mentioned privacy before. It is simply not going to be available in the
early going, and any volunteers had better not have too strong of a sense of
body modesty. This will be especially true if we decide that the first habitat
has to be sent from Earth rather than built out of lunar materials. In the
second case they need to get it built fast, but perhaps they can take a little
extra time to make it somewhat bigger and more comfortable. Even then, it
probably will not be all THAT roomy.
>How dressed do people have to be? How much is for personal modesty and
>how much for physical comfort? I understand that etiquette in nudist
>resorts requires carrying a towel to sit on. On the other side,
>equipment and outside clothing needs to be protected from "body soil" (a
>lovely term I picked up a few months ago from some (detergent?)
>commercial).
>
>I think you are going to have to include a textile expert and
>dermatologist on your planning team.
Definitely. Along with several types of engineers, botany experts who know
something about hydroponics, several types of skilled trades, a doctor with
broad enough knowlege to know what specialties should be on the design team,
the specialists he recommends, chemistry experts (both bio and physical),
aerospace engineers to get at least a preliminary lander design so that we have
some idea as to how much payload can be carried each launch, industrial stress
experts to give us some idea how people are going to react to lunar conditions
and what we can do to alleviate the inevitable stress, manufacturing experts of
various sorts who can tell us if it is going to be feasible to make things like
metal panels for colony expansion, solar panels, lights or light carrying glass
fibers, experts on the lunar surface who can point out difficulties in
excavating to be expected and how to cope with them, various scientific
specialties such as astronomers and geologists who can give guidance in what we
should plan for once the colony is established, anyone who had anything to do
with designing the space station, anyone who has lived there and can tell us
what the designers did wrong, and probably quite a few others.
Skimping on the planning stage would be a VERY bad idea.
Howard Berkowitz
wo...@webtv.net (jeanette) wrote:
>
> I don't remember if you have addressed paper. You could plan to make
> recyclable paper clothing. There were paper dresses in the late 60's
> and some hospital gowns are disposable.
That did bring an entirely new meaning to a "printed blouse".
Howard Berkowitz
Subs do have washer-dryers. They aren't too concerned about weight, but
they are VERY concerned about size.
charles krin
wrote:
>
>Hmm...had not thought of this. That could be bad news. Would making it six
>times heavier work? The extra weight would not have to be shipped, a hamper
>could be designed into it to contain some rocks. This does mean six times
>higher inertia, which could be bad news. Is there some other way to break up
>rocks in a reasonable amount of time? Is there an explosive that could be made
>out of lunar materials? I am partly looking at this initial habitat, but also
>looking at long term, when we want to expand this from a base to an actual
>colony, with lots of people and cubic. If we were only looking at the initial
>habitat, I would say that a few kilos of explosive would be just fine.
Even better would be to just use 'jack screws' (yep, like the jacks on
the car) to brace the drill between the base wall and the working
face...I think that you will find those already developed for working
in deep hard rock mines...the problem being that it's tough to just
use man portable equipment to make large (over 2 meter dia) tunnels in
hard rock without the concomitant use of explosives...cf the rail road
tunnels which were stymied in passing through the hard granite of the
Rockies until the availability of something stronger than black
powder.
for the initial bit, a simple drill with weights, followed by a shot
or two of high explosive to get things started should suffice.
charles krin
wrote:
>
>Yes, we definitely need to look at how the space station does things, and how
>things are done on submarines. There is no point in trying to reinvent the
>wheel. A small washing machine is one possibility. Hand washing in a sink is
>another, but I don't like it at first glance. These people are supposed to be
>doing astronomical and selenological research, and building new cubic for
>immigrants, and such, not standing at a sink washing clothes.
IIRC, washing machines were added to the US Pacific Fleet boats in the
1943 time frame, with a significant savings in fresh water and time. I
suspect that the 'dryer' for the lunar colonies would be a rig to use
solar heat and reduced atmospheric pressure in order to reclaim as
much distilled water as possible.
fadermcgee
"charles krin" <ck...@bayou.com> wrote in message
news:f55u109fbv7quqnrv...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:08:18 -0700, "fadermcgee"
> <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Jojoba should be evaluated for viability - tbe oil can be used as a
> >lubricant and
> >fuel, and the plant grows in the Sonoran desert. Creosote and soybean
also
> >should be tried as sources of hydrocarbons.
>
> Castor oil is also a significant source of a known polymerizing
> oil...not to mention having decent lubrication and at least one
> medical application...
>
> but what would you do with the ricin laced bean meal afterwards?
save it for unwanted guests?
Seriously, dump it in the Changing World hydrocarbon maker along with the
dooky and wee-wee.
VPF
fadermcgee
> >Might it not be better to use vats of tailored bacteria to produce these
> >products?
>
> Possibly. I know very little about the subject. I can include a
reference to
> studying this possibility. We would certainly rather have this person or
team
> doing scientific type things as much as possible.
Actually, if a private sector organization will be footing the bill for this
mission,
then it may actually be expedient to invent and develop things like food,
rubber
and lubricant synthesis by bacteria, fungi and other tailored organisms -
there are
already rodents which have been genetically altered to produce useful drugs
in
their milk - taking advantages of the economic value of the spin-offs PRIOR
to, and in order to finance, the mission.
The pharmaceutical industry may be a source of both venture capital and
ideas in this regard - before its digestion by the Glaxo Smith Kline
colossus,
Burroughs Wellcome was a rarity in the pharm world - an organization which
was largely non-profit, and which operated by using its current revenues to
finance future drug development and research. It became an attractive
takeover
target after the invention first of Daraprim - the most popular treatment
for malaria
until the emergence of the falciparum strain - and then bupropion - also
known
as Wellbutrin - certainly a major cash cow in the lucrative antidepressant
market.
If something like the Long Range Foundation (from another of RAH's books -
_The Stars Are Ours_? anybody?) is to prosper, the idea should be to take
the
most fiscally advantageous route to raising the money needed for the mission
while at the same time developing the technology needed to make the mission
do-able. I just know the pharm industry better than other industries -
maybe
someone else out there has an even better idea. (This is a hint).
VPF
fadermcgee
Hmmm.... increasing the mass of the jackhammer might work, but then you'd
need to be able to control the momentum of this massive object moving up
and down with great force and velocity - because, remember, while the
gravity - the force "down" or normal to the object with respect to the
gravity
field may be reduced, all of the inertia - in all directions - of this
rapidly moving
mass will still be there, ready to punch holes in things besides the ground,
tear pressure suits, break helmet faceplates....
Dunno, maybe someone out there wants to do the free-body diagram for that
system, but being an ignorant Cajun with a little chemistry under his belt,
explosives just seem... safer to me :-).
VPF
fadermcgee
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:14:55 -0000, "Jamie Hart"
> <theodor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Whatever plants are used, they should all have at least two used,
soybeans
> >are edible and also produce oil, Cotton on the other hand is only used
for
> >making thread, maybe production of a synthetic would yield better
results.
>
> actually, cotton seed also yields an oil useful for organic feedstock
> and lubrication, and both cottonseed and soybeans yield high quality
> protein meal for livestock (such as chickens and rabbits) feed.
>
out of the cottonseed oil, because it's toxic. Then again, it's also a
usable male contraceptive, which might be useful if one or two of the
colonists is female....
VPF
LV Poker Player
>> Castor oil is also a significant source of a known polymerizing
>> oil...not to mention having decent lubrication and at least one
>> medical application...
>>
>> but what would you do with the ricin laced bean meal afterwards?
>
>save it for unwanted guests?
>
>Seriously, dump it in the Changing World hydrocarbon maker along with the
>dooky and wee-wee.
I don't know just how soon we will have that thermal depolymerization process.
I am guessing it might take a while. Meanwhile, we can dump non volatile stuff
outside for later use. As for volatiles, this can be considered. Just letting
them boil away is one possibility if we don't lose too much that way. If we
decide we need to save them, it should be possible to build some fairly simple
storage tanks, once again stored outside.
I am not overly concerned about polluting the lunar environment, at least not
until we start terraforming operations.
fadermcgee
> >rom: "Jamie Hart"
>
.
> >
> >Whatever plants are used, they should all have at least two used,
soybeans
> >are edible and also produce oil, Cotton on the other hand is only used
for
> >making thread, maybe production of a synthetic would yield better
results.
As Chuck has pointed out, cotton can also be used to make an oil useful in
cooking - I grew up eating stuff fried in cottonseed oil - as well as thread
and
a useful feed for small livestock.
> Maybe. How hard is it to make synthetic fibers and thread? I was thinking
that
> each colonist should arrive with a few sets of lightweight, durable
clothing
> probably based on artificial fibers. Then they get by with these for a
few
> years or so, postponing the need for clothing manufacture. The
temperature
> could be adjusted so the colony is clothing optional indoors.
Could work. My kids discovered the Eastbay catalog during high school,
and soon thereafter both got after-school jobs which paid enough to keep
them in polyester and polyethylene athletic suits, warm-up jackets, etc.
They
got me a couple of sets of cold-weather gear some time ago which I still
use when (as it did yesterday) the ground gets covered in a foot or so of
snow, the temperature's a balmy 32 Fahrenheit (that's 0 Celsius for our
non-USian friends) out in the sun, and I _still_ have things to do outside.
VPF
fadermcgee
"jeanette" <wo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23557-402...@storefull-3114.bay.webtv.net...
> When you get into considering clothing, I am sure much research has been
> done on fibers for uniforms for various occupations. Comfort is a
> factor. Polyester lasts almost forever, but it doesn't "breath" so I
> don't like it for blouses.
Depends on how small you make the fibers. The "microfiber" stuff I've
seen (and worn - I have a trenchcoat made out of it) seems quite breathable.
> If you can make thread, you can make fabrics. A lot of synthetics are
> thermoplastic and are extruded as fibers and then woven. They could
> also be molded into a shape or as a flat sheet of fabric. Partly it is
> chemistry.
And not very complex chemistry at that, although the acrylic polymers
used in most of our more popular fibers have highly toxic and explosive
intermediates such as acrolein and methylisocyanate which are probably
not going to be made by the first wave of settlers.
> I don't remember if you have addressed paper. You could plan to make
> recyclable paper clothing. There were paper dresses in the late 60's
> and some hospital gowns are disposable.
>
> How to clean reusable clothing is something to think about. Our pioneer
> ancestors didn't much but they also had wide open spaces. How does a
> submarine smell at the end of a voyage?
Not good. :-)
However, we have REALLY wide open spaces to work with on Luna,
which means that we can air clothing out in lunar semivacuum briefly,
which both vents the volatile oils such as butyric and caprylic acids in
sweat and body dirt which make us "less than fresh" to be around, and
kill the microorganisms which do likewise. In the first short story
featuring Andy Libby, RAH has the laundry which gets contaminated
by barf on the flight out to the asteroid "aired out" in the ship's airlock,
leaving a dry residue easily brushed off (though you don't want to
brush that stuff off inside a spaceship, either)..
> I would suggest looking at what is done on the space station. They are
> not making their own but they have some ideas for what is necessary.
Although on ISS, they probably don't recycle a whole lot of stuff.
This is a serious suggestion - how about hemp? I know it carries a
lot of sociopolitical baggage, but the Navy thought enough of hemp
that they planted a lot of the country in it during WWII in order to
have a steady supply to make rope from. And you don't HAVE
to smoke it....
VPF
LV Poker Player
>Hmmm.... increasing the mass of the jackhammer might work, but then you'd
>need to be able to control the momentum of this massive object moving up
>and down with great force and velocity - because, remember, while the
>gravity - the force "down" or normal to the object with respect to the
>gravity
>field may be reduced, all of the inertia - in all directions - of this
>rapidly moving
>mass will still be there, ready to punch holes in things besides the ground,
>tear pressure suits, break helmet faceplates....
>
>Dunno, maybe someone out there wants to do the free-body diagram for that
>system, but being an ignorant Cajun with a little chemistry under his belt,
>explosives just seem... safer to me :-).
Actually, it is going to be both a matter of mass and speed. The jackhammer
needs to come down fast enough to actually do some damage to the rocks. That
means six times higher on the upswing, or increasing the mass to some
ridiculous amount. This is looking less and less attractive, or perhaps
impossible. Chuck has mentioned a jackscrew, rather than jackhammer.
Maybe explosives are a better idea. Are there any that can be made out of
stuff available on the moon, and that could be made through fairly simple
processes? If not, we don't need them in industrial quantities by any means,
so maybe it would be feasible to ship these as needed. Use of a jackscrew
should keep the amount needed down.
Remember 1/6 g and vacuum. Before setting them off, get FAR away, or behind
something thick and solid. Using them near existing structures could be
hazardous too, but perhaps with tamping and shaped charges this could still be
done. Somebody on this team had better be a demolitions expert. A vibrodrill
would sure come in handy...
fadermcgee
Hey, every airlock is the ultimate dry cleaning plant - and boy, will those
clothes
be dry when you get them back out. No solvents required - though on
stubborn
stains and odors you might want to soak the clothes before hand in soapy
water,
agitate a little in a plastic bag, empty bag, wring out (send a laundry
mangle up
with the first ship, guys), rinse, then dry out in the airlock. Use lunar
vacuum to
recover the water, and some of the detergent. Send the remaining residue to
the organic waste bin for recycling.
> This is a concept that the hypothetical design team has to study. How
much
> labor saving equipment such as a washing machine should be sent?
Launching
> anything is not cheap. If it can be made small and light, and results in
> significant labor savings, it is definitely a strong candidate for being
sent,
> whatever "it" may be.
>
> Personal hygeine, including clothes washing, is something that I really
had not
> thought of when writing this. Once again, one of the reasons for posting
this
> is to have these things pointed out.
I think that in zero gee, people are still closing themselves in great big
bags,
then scrubbing and rinsing.
The next step on Shuttle and ISS is to vent the water, suds, and body soil,
but on the proposed mission you'll want to use lunar vacuum in a
fractionating
process to boil the water off and recover it - boiling it in vacuum purifies
it, as
well - then taking the dried remnants of soap and body dirt and putting them
into the compost bin - unless you want to fractionate off the soap and reuse
that.
VPF
fadermcgee
"David Wright" <dwri...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:c00if5$10kl4f$1...@ID-53646.news.uni-berlin.de...
Ordinary dirt IS 'used organic material' - sloughed-off skin cells, butyric
and
caprylic acids made by skin bacteria, dead dust and skin mites, and the
volatile
fraction of whatever it is you ate yesterday - I can tell when I've eaten
Italian
food from how I smell later - the mercaptans in the garlic and tomatoes are
pretty noticeable to me. Add in silica from outside soil, and - around
here,
lately, anyway - road salt and residue from air pollution - a lot of that is
soot
from diesel fuel and the coal which we burn here in Denver for electricity,
thus
pushing the radioactive background levels higher than if we hadn't been so
squeamish about nuclear power - because coal is taken from strata in the
ground which are also rich in radon.
VPF
And thanks for the name of the short story - I couldn't remember it to save
my life!
LV Poker Player
>Hey, every airlock is the ultimate dry cleaning plant - and boy, will those
>clothes
>be dry when you get them back out. No solvents required - though on
>stubborn
>stains and odors you might want to soak the clothes before hand in soapy
>water,
>agitate a little in a plastic bag, empty bag, wring out (send a laundry
>mangle up
>with the first ship, guys), rinse, then dry out in the airlock. Use lunar
>vacuum to
>recover the water, and some of the detergent. Send the remaining residue to
>the organic waste bin for recycling.
At the very least, our airlock is the clothes dryer. No need to open the outer
door for this, the pump should be able to provide enough vacuum to do the job,
and we don't lose anything to the outside if we keep the outer door closed.
Any other opinions on whether or not this would be sufficient for cleaning?
Sounds good to me.
fadermcgee
> >From: wolfj
>
> >One disadvantage to the exposing things to vacuum idea is that you will
> >be throwing away air and whatever else that might be better recycled
> >into the food chain. Over a long term will these contaminate the moon
> >surface?
Not if you're bright about how you build your airlock. The idea is to have
a
tank connected to the airlock by pipes - first you let vacuum into the tank,
then close that valve and evacuate the airlock into the now-closed tank.
After the airlock is as empty as it's going to get - you probably want to
use
pumps to help that along - close the tank off from the airlock side and step
out.
In the meantime, the trapped air in the airlock tank contains air, dust,
water
vapor, and - if you use it to clean your clothes in, too - wash water,
detergent,
body soil and a wealth of volatile oils and other organic compounds.
Use a second tank attached to the first one - it also should be temporarily
evacuated, then closed off - to draw out the water vapor and air, then close
it
off. What's left in the first tank is whatever's not water and air - a
dust-like
residuum which can be emptied from an airtight trap door in the bottom of
the
first tank into a bin that is periodically emptied. The dust ought to be
useful
as a fertilizer.
Use a stop cock on the bottom of the second tank to pour off the condensed
water, then pump the air into the station's air handling plant for
purification.
> I would say the first is a FAR more important concern than the second. It
> seems like both could be solved by taking the clothing into the airlock
and
> pumping, then brushing, then repressurizing without ever opening the outer
> door.
But, you see, just by optimizing airlock design, you even save the step of
picking up the dirt from where you brushed it off.
I'm giving away WAY too many good ideas in this NG! :-)
> Maybe SOMEDAY we can think about actually terraforming the moon. Until we
get
> to the point where this is seriously considered, is there really any
reason to
> worry about contaminating the surface?
>
> As to whether or not vacuum and brushing is sufficient to clean clothes, I
> don't know. Does anyone happen to know what they do about these things on
the
> space station?
No, but the usefulness of ISS's procedures is probably limited.
> >We are encouraged to use less water and environmentally safe cleaners
> >now. I think the moon colony will need to use almost no water for
> >cleaning and "no impact" cleaners. Rashes can be caused by cleaning
> >products or their lack of use. Again, I suggest finding out what is
> >done on the space station.
>
> What has to be controlled is water loss. Usage in the colony should not
be a
> problem, as long is it is reclaimed and recycled. As to personal washing,
> showers and baths and such, we might have to be somewhat careful, since we
need
> to control the humidity. Until we have shower or bath facilities, sponge
baths
> will probably have to do. Yes, I think the shower/bath facilities should
be
> built from lunar materials rather than shipped out of a gravity well.
Maybe
> send a shower head from Earth, and build the rest. Still, as long as we
work
> out a way to avoid steaming up the entire colony, I don't see that it
matters
> how much water goes down the shower drain and is then reclaimed.
In a vacuum, water itself serves the purpose that dry-cleaning fluid would
serve here on Earth - a solvent that carries smelly organics and dirt off
the
clothes with it. Oh, you might want to use ethanol to get the nonpolar
stuff
off - or moonshine, a mixture of water and ethanol, to dissolve ALL the
soil - but you wouldn't have to bother with perchlorethylene and stuff like
that.
The sponge bath idea is inspired, actually - then you clean the sponges in
an airlock and recover the water and soil in a two-stage vacuum set-up as I
described earlier. You'll have some water and air loss, but it should be
minimal.
But if you make a virtue out of a necessity and spin-off as much of the
technology for the mission into processes, patents and other intellectual
property
which can be used to finance the mission, the planning gets paid for as an
essential part of mission funding.
This really sounds fun as all get out!
VPF
fadermcgee
Well, there's lots of oxygen all there and waiting for us tied up in the
lunar
regolith, and you'd be surprised how many things go BANG! in the presence
of liquid oxygen and a little encouragement :-)
Perhaps the Changing World organic depolymerization machine could be
tuned to make the nitrates and amines in human and animal excrement
available in useful form? Urea, which (as you might guess) comes from
urine, can be separated from its namesake with a little boiling - easy to do
on an airless moon. Urea happens to be useful in the manufacture of
several explosives.
At this point, I'd like to mention that my wife and I scored VERY LOW
on the pyro purity test, in case someone needs an explosives expert for
this mission :-)
VPF
fadermcgee
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >> Castor oil is also a significant source of a known polymerizing
> >> oil...not to mention having decent lubrication and at least one
> >> medical application...
> >>
> >> but what would you do with the ricin laced bean meal afterwards?
> >
> >save it for unwanted guests?
> >
> >Seriously, dump it in the Changing World hydrocarbon maker along with the
> >dooky and wee-wee.
>
> I don't know just how soon we will have that thermal depolymerization
process.
> I am guessing it might take a while.
Conceptually, it's simple. All we'd need to do is pay license fees to the
inventors -
they already have it working and ConAgra is all set to use it in really
large scale
to both dispose of their chicken guts and dung and provide process heat -
all at
the same time.
> Meanwhile, we can dump non volatile stuff
> outside for later use. As for volatiles, this can be considered. Just
letting
> them boil away is one possibility if we don't lose too much that way. If
we
> decide we need to save them, it should be possible to build some fairly
simple
> storage tanks, once again stored outside.
Better from an elegant design standpoint and a not having to import stuff
from Earth standpoint if we recycle every gram of biomass we can
(although the nitrates from our sewage disposal process will
stand us in good stead as explosive feedstock).
> I am not overly concerned about polluting the lunar environment, at least
not
> until we start terraforming operations.
Really - unless we plan on having regular flights from Earth to bring us
stuff to throw out, the solid waste problem shouldn't exist in practical
terms/
VPF
LV Poker Player
>Well, there's lots of oxygen all there and waiting for us tied up in the
>lunar
>regolith, and you'd be surprised how many things go BANG! in the presence
>of liquid oxygen and a little encouragement :-)
Here is another link you may have missed:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Times/September_95/2.5HowTo.html
More seriously, how hard is it to make liquid oxygen from the gaseous kind?
You are right. Online research shows the lunar crust to be 43% oxygen by
weight. When we smelt, we will probably capture what is needed and let a lot
of it go. As I mentioned in the original text, liquid oxygen might have many
uses, especially once we set up a mass driver. If some Earth agency wants to
send a really large probe to be launched out of the mass driver, we can supply
it with the oxidizer at least, instead of boosting it out of the gravity well.
It might be possible to boost some into Low Earth Orbit, to rendezvous with
Earth launches and once again avoid boosting it out of the gravity well,
boosting payload instead.
>At this point, I'd like to mention that my wife and I scored VERY LOW
>on the pyro purity test, in case someone needs an explosives expert for
>this mission :-)
That is a new one for me. I got a good laugh out of
http://www.armory.com/~spcecdt/pyrotech/pyrotest.html
LV Poker Player
>> >> Castor oil is also a significant source of a known polymerizing
>> >> oil...not to mention having decent lubrication and at least one
>> >> medical application...
>> >>
>> >> but what would you do with the ricin laced bean meal afterwards?
>> >
>> >save it for unwanted guests?
>> >
>> >Seriously, dump it in the Changing World hydrocarbon maker along with the
>> >dooky and wee-wee.
>>
>> I don't know just how soon we will have that thermal depolymerization
>process.
>> I am guessing it might take a while.
>
>Conceptually, it's simple. All we'd need to do is pay license fees to the
>inventors -
WHAT?!?!?!?! What are you THINKING? They should pay us for the publicity they
will get for having this process used by the lunar colony. So should any
company whose products or processes are used in this project.
How long will it take to construct this, how much needs to be sent from Earth
as opposed to built on the moon, and how long will it be before we have any
useful amount of material to process? Those are the questions that need to be
answered.
>> Meanwhile, we can dump non volatile stuff
>> outside for later use. As for volatiles, this can be considered. Just
>letting
>> them boil away is one possibility if we don't lose too much that way. If
>we
>> decide we need to save them, it should be possible to build some fairly
>simple
>> storage tanks, once again stored outside.
>
>Better from an elegant design standpoint and a not having to import stuff
>from Earth standpoint if we recycle every gram of biomass we can
>(although the nitrates from our sewage disposal process will
>stand us in good stead as explosive feedstock).
I don't know about "every gram." It is possible to get to the point of
diminishing returns. We certainly do not want to let very much boil away
though. For any significant quantities we should put them in a tank, and stow
the tank in a cave probably (away from direct sunlight anyway). Then they are
ready whenever we do set up thermo depolymerization.
Nohbody
<vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote:
> "jeanette" <wo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:23557-402...@storefull-3114.bay.webtv.net...
> > I would suggest looking at what is done on the space station. They are
> > not making their own but they have some ideas for what is necessary.
>
> Although on ISS, they probably don't recycle a whole lot of stuff.
>
> This is a serious suggestion - how about hemp? I know it carries a
> lot of sociopolitical baggage, but the Navy thought enough of hemp
> that they planted a lot of the country in it during WWII in order to
> have a steady supply to make rope from. And you don't HAVE
> to smoke it....
Although not a biochemist, it's my understanding that what's used to
produce hemp fabric isn't suitable for use in a recreational manner.
Mind you, I'd be rather unhappy if someone around me, were we both in
this hypothetical colony, was using any illicit drugs. "Wicked sound"
is NOT something you want to hear over the blare of, say, a
decompression warning, especially if the speaker is responsible for
any part of the response to that warning. :P
--
Dan Poore
ICQ UIN: 3908950 <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3908950>
A Meeting of Minds <http://nohbody.com/schtuff/meeting.html> - a
(mostly) cliche-free first contact story (updated periodically)
David M. Silver
Nohbody <lo...@my.reply-to.address> wrote:
> Mind you, I'd be rather unhappy if someone around me, were we both in
> this hypothetical colony, was using any illicit drugs.
You'd be bailing against the tide, Dan, considering the long history we
have in making from anything organic and consuming ethanol.
"I was once in a ship, " Sam told Max, "where the First clamped
down--busted up the still, busted the steward to cleaning decks, and
generally threw the book. . . . Didn't work out."
"Why not?"
"Use your head. Forces must balance, old son. For every market there
is a supplier. That's the key to the nutshell. In a month there was a
still in durn near every out-of-the-way compartment in the ship, and the
crew was so demoralized it wasn't fit to stuff vacuum. So the Captain
had a talk with the First and things went back to normal."
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
Howard Berkowitz
M. Silver" <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
> In article <aVfVb.8112$UF1....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
> Nohbody <lo...@my.reply-to.address> wrote:
>
> > Mind you, I'd be rather unhappy if someone around me, were we both in
> > this hypothetical colony, was using any illicit drugs.
>
> You'd be bailing against the tide, Dan, considering the long history we
> have in making from anything organic and consuming ethanol.
>
> "I was once in a ship, " Sam told Max, "where the First clamped
> down--busted up the still, busted the steward to cleaning decks, and
> generally threw the book. . . . Didn't work out."
> "Why not?"
> "Use your head. Forces must balance, old son. For every market there
> is a supplier. That's the key to the nutshell. In a month there was a
> still in durn near every out-of-the-way compartment in the ship, and the
> crew was so demoralized it wasn't fit to stuff vacuum. So the Captain
> had a talk with the First and things went back to normal."
No question that drinking has a long tradition in surface ships. I've
had several former submariner friends, however, that if one bubblehead
finds another drinking or drugging while on patrol, they will turn in
their best buddy in a flash. They said one motto is "there is no such
thing as a minor accident aboard a submarine", and the US sub subculture
[couldn't resist] is absolutely intolerant of risking their lives on an
impaired shipmate.
LV Poker Player
>> Mind you, I'd be rather unhappy if someone around me, were we both in
>> this hypothetical colony, was using any illicit drugs.
>
>You'd be bailing against the tide, Dan, considering the long history we
>have in making from anything organic and consuming ethanol.
>
> "I was once in a ship, " Sam told Max, "where the First clamped
>down--busted up the still, busted the steward to cleaning decks, and
>generally threw the book. . . . Didn't work out."
> "Why not?"
> "Use your head. Forces must balance, old son. For every market there
>is a supplier. That's the key to the nutshell. In a month there was a
>still in durn near every out-of-the-way compartment in the ship, and the
>crew was so demoralized it wasn't fit to stuff vacuum. So the Captain
>had a talk with the First and things went back to normal."
We need balance. Ok, this team is probably not going to be made up of
teetotalling monks. I am still with Nohbody for the most part though. For one
thing, I don't think it is a good worthwhile use of launch capability to send
up mind altering chemicals. If they want them, they will have to wait until
they figure out how to make them on their own. Ethanol probably will not take
all that long. These guys had better have a pretty good history of controlling
their alcohol consumption. If they are going to get plastered, one of them had
better be the "designated on watch person."
As for the harder stuff such as heroine, cocaine, crystal meth, and such, I am
definitely with Nohbody. No one has any business consuming these in the early
days of the colony where every waking hour is going to be dedicated to getting
the base built and operating. Even later on they are lousy ideas in a hostile
environment. As for THC, maybe it is no worse than alchohol, but even those
are bad ideas in the first few days or weeks, and I see no hurry in sending up
the get high variety, even if we do decide to send the hemp variety.
When the cubic and population have expanded, and it is more of a true colony
than an outpost, it will probably be about like here on Earth. Ethanol will be
available, whether or not it is legal, and any attempt to ban it will work
about as well as the Prohibition and Sam's incident worked. Some ideas will be
incredibly bad though, such as getting plastered, then suiting up and going
outside. As I have pointed out in the past, I am in favor of repealing our
drug laws and ending the war on drugs, here on Earth. I am less sure about the
colony though. For the most part we should probably avoid sending up poppies
and cocaine plants and such. It might be possible to come up with substitutes
(the crystal meth mentioned is artificially made, isn't it?) but maybe we
should send up people who are interested in scientific research and such, not
in getting their minds blown.
If we do end up with a faction who smuggled the poppy seeds, or came up with a
way to make crystal meth, or something like that, I am less certain about how
to handle this. I am not at all enthusiastic about a prohibition. I am also
less than totally enthused by the idea of someone saying "wicked sound, man"
when the depressurization siren goes off.
At least, we should encourage people to limit their recreational chemicals to
alchohol, and keep that to its time and place (such as NOT right before suiting
up and going outside).
Nohbody
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> In article <ag.plusone-16393...@news.cis.dfn.de>, "David
> M. Silver" <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <aVfVb.8112$UF1....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
> > Nohbody <lo...@my.reply-to.address> wrote:
> >
> > > Mind you, I'd be rather unhappy if someone around me, were we both in
> > > this hypothetical colony, was using any illicit drugs.
> >
> > You'd be bailing against the tide, Dan, considering the long history we
> > have in making from anything organic and consuming ethanol.
<snip>
>
> No question that drinking has a long tradition in surface ships. I've
> had several former submariner friends, however, that if one bubblehead
> finds another drinking or drugging while on patrol, they will turn in
> their best buddy in a flash. They said one motto is "there is no such
> thing as a minor accident aboard a submarine", and the US sub subculture
> [couldn't resist] is absolutely intolerant of risking their lives on an
> impaired shipmate.
Actually, that was where I was coming from, as a submariner-wannabee
("wannabee" because I left the Navy before getting my dolphins, for
reasons I won't go into here, so I'm a little uneasy with just
"submariner"). I sure as hell wasn't in a hurry to find out whether a
sub's atmosphere really does ignite due to compression if someone or
something punches a big hole in the boat, and Seaman Druggie didn't do
his thing!
(Well, ok, you'd be pretty much screwed, at that point, no matter what
anyone did, except maybe for the guy who hit the "emergency blow"
button.)
Likewise, the other pressure extreme (namely, vacuum) can kill just as
messily (yes, I know the way movies depict sudden exposure to hard
vacuum isn't accurate, but ones' bodily fluids boiling away doesn't
sound like a much more enjoyable way to die than the common movie
depiction of one's body exploding).
Colonists may wind up dying anyway, if something goes wrong, but I see
no reason to compound the issue with willing self-impairment.
jeanette
polluting the lunar environment. I think other people have pointed out
that you should save everything you can to recycle.
You are involved in a discussion of evolution on another thread. My
other reason for not leaving earthly garbage exposed to vacuum and
radiation comes from 50's B movies. (Imagine appropriately ominous
music here.)
Jeanette :-)
LV Poker Player
>LV--You have said a couple times that you are not too concerned with
>polluting the lunar environment. I think other people have pointed out
>that you should save everything you can to recycle.
I have tried to make it clear that recycling is going to be VITALLY important
to this colony if it ever gets off the ground. That is the reason though, they
NEED these things. We are not going to worry if a few pounds of ricin ends up
in the lunar atmosphere. What difference does that make? None. What matters
is that the few pounds of ricin will no longer be available for recycling in
the thermal depolymerization process that we plan to install later.
If it is a few grams instead of a few pounds, does it really matter either way?
>You are involved in a discussion of evolution on another thread. My
>other reason for not leaving earthly garbage exposed to vacuum and
>radiation comes from 50's B movies. (Imagine appropriately ominous
>music here.)
Frankly, if lunar life evolved from the garbage discarded from the lunar
colony, I think this would be an EXCELLENT reason to discard as much garbage as
possible, and HANG the launch costs to replace it.
Come on, this place is in hard vacuum. Sure luna has a trace atmosphere, but
from what I understand it has less pressure than the hardest vacuum that can be
produced in an Earthside lab. Half the time (or more if we locate at a pole)
it is baked by solar radiation. Life as we know it will NOT happen here. If
life as we don't know it somehow evolves...this would be the greatest research
boom in the entire history of the human race.
If some 50's B movie monsters evolve and find a way to get to Earth and
invade...I'll take my chances.
charles krin
wrote:
>>From: "fadermcgee"
>
>>Hmmm.... increasing the mass of the jackhammer might work, but then you'd
>>need to be able to control the momentum of this massive object moving up
>>and down with great force and velocity - because, remember, while the
>>gravity - the force "down" or normal to the object with respect to the
>>gravity
>>field may be reduced, all of the inertia - in all directions - of this
>>rapidly moving
>>mass will still be there, ready to punch holes in things besides the ground,
>>tear pressure suits, break helmet faceplates....
>>
>>Dunno, maybe someone out there wants to do the free-body diagram for that
>>system, but being an ignorant Cajun with a little chemistry under his belt,
>>explosives just seem... safer to me :-).
>
>Actually, it is going to be both a matter of mass and speed. The jackhammer
>needs to come down fast enough to actually do some damage to the rocks. That
>means six times higher on the upswing, or increasing the mass to some
>ridiculous amount. This is looking less and less attractive, or perhaps
>impossible. Chuck has mentioned a jackscrew, rather than jackhammer.
>
If I get a chance to get on line tonight, I'll try the National
Geographic web site for pics of the folks in the South African Gold
mines...using jackscrews to hold the jackhammers in place against the
working face of the mine. Still have to have both, and because of the
need for pressurized gas to run the jack hammer, the area needs to be
at least somewhat pressure tight...
An alternative would be to use a similar set up with a large electric
or hydraulic powered rotary hammer drill...less wasted gas, and
possibly more rapid progress.
>Maybe explosives are a better idea. Are there any that can be made out of
>stuff available on the moon, and that could be made through fairly simple
>processes? If not, we don't need them in industrial quantities by any means,
>so maybe it would be feasible to ship these as needed. Use of a jackscrew
>should keep the amount needed down.
No, the jackscrew is to hold what ever drill in place, and you would
need industrial quantities of explosives, if not quite the amounts
that you need on Earth for similar effects, mainly because most of the
boom you need on the Moon is for the breaking, and much less for the
moving. This does require a high explosive, but if the cotton plants
are up and going, and there is a decent source of high quality nitric
and sulfuric acids, then gun cotton can be made...
>
>Remember 1/6 g and vacuum. Before setting them off, get FAR away, or behind
>something thick and solid. Using them near existing structures could be
>hazardous too, but perhaps with tamping and shaped charges this could still be
>done. Somebody on this team had better be a demolitions expert. A vibrodrill
>would sure come in handy...
yes, it would, but then you'd still have Newtonian effects to
consider....which probably brings you back to the jackscrews. OTOH, by
pumping down the stope (or working in vacuum if you are going the
hydraulic or electric routes), and venting it to the surface, you
reduce the amount of over pressure affecting your habitat...even if
you have a significant ground wave to cope with...
Jamie Hart
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Hmmm.... increasing the mass of the jackhammer might work, but then you'd
> >need to be able to control the momentum of this massive object moving up
> >and down with great force and velocity - because, remember, while the
> >gravity - the force "down" or normal to the object with respect to the
> >gravity
> >field may be reduced, all of the inertia - in all directions - of this
> >rapidly moving
> >mass will still be there, ready to punch holes in things besides the
ground,
> >tear pressure suits, break helmet faceplates....
> >
> >Dunno, maybe someone out there wants to do the free-body diagram for that
> >system, but being an ignorant Cajun with a little chemistry under his
belt,
> >explosives just seem... safer to me :-).
>
> Actually, it is going to be both a matter of mass and speed. The
jackhammer
> needs to come down fast enough to actually do some damage to the rocks.
That
> means six times higher on the upswing, or increasing the mass to some
> ridiculous amount. This is looking less and less attractive, or perhaps
> impossible. Chuck has mentioned a jackscrew, rather than jackhammer.
>
to pegs in the rock may hold it down enough to be useful. It would need a
simple way of adjusting the focus of the jackhammer (without needing to move
the pegs), but might be doable.
Get one of your research teams working on it.
Jamie Hart
>
> Maybe SOMEDAY we can think about actually terraforming the moon. Until we
get
> to the point where this is seriously considered, is there really any
reason to
> worry about contaminating the surface?
>
moon has too little gravity to hold an atmosphere. You'd need to generate
atmosphere faster than it escapes into space, and even if you could do that
it'd make for some interesting wind patterns.
OrphanOfTheSky
from Orphan of the Sky
Dear Jamie,
With present technology the amount of Oxygen we can make in Luna
depends on the amount of Carbon we can get,
because SiO2 + C + energy = Si + CO2 .
If prospectors discover Carbonates in Luna, we can decompose them
e.g. CaCO3 + energy = CaO + CO2
The Oxygen will be released after the CO2 has gone through our
hydroponic gardens,
6CO2 + 6H2O + energy = C6H12O6 + 6O2
Energy's needed for every reaction. We'll use focused sunlight because
on Luna "the sky is not cloudy all day".
Your trouble comes when you try to make Nitrogen, because we don't
know of any Nitrogen-bearing rock in Luna.
Could we make Nitrogen atoms from some other atom?
"Luna's mass is 7.36x10^19 tonnes. Thus holding other variables
constant the presnt rate of export could continue for seven thousand
billion years before using up 1% of Luna. This projection is based on
controlled transmutation - any isotope into any other and postulating
power for any reaction not exo-energetic."
"But we don't know how to do that!"
"But we will know how to do it."
"Mike, did you compute hw many years till we have this?"
"The question is indeterminate."
"Why?"
"Because it involves a break-through in theory. There is no way in all
my data to predict when and where genius may appear."
(The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress)
Kuhn did come up with a rule for the emergence of theories of genius.
He saw these as emergency survival drives which the human race
generates whenever there is a collective "essential tension". For
example, we will experience an essential tension as we come up against
the limits of the solar system. The resulting political chaos will
provide the negentropic energy for the emergence of a strange
attractor in the form of a faster-than-light drive. It may take longer
for shortage of elements to make one of us tense enough to invent a
transmuter.
So there will come a time when we can transmute rock into atmosphere,
though we are unlikely to live long enough to see it.
Jack Vance came up with a way to lessen gas escape in low-G - use a
heavy inert gas instead of Nitrogen. He suggested Xenon, but this has
turned out to have a general anesthetic effect, so we'd better use
Krypton. But nothing short of transmutation could supply us with
enough.
Or we could set our transmuter to turn out Fluorine as well as
Hydrogen and Carbon, then combine them all into enough
Polyhydrofluorocarbon liquid to mantle Luna with a non-evaporating
sea. This lquid can hold enough dissolved Oxygen to allow us to
breathe it as we swim through it.
On a much smaller scale, we could use polyhydrofluorocarbon to
transport invalids - arthritis and heart cases - to Luna. Immersing
them totally in oxygen-rich liquid would protect them from the high-G
of take-off. Once in Luna they wouldn't be invalids any longer.
Hot Jets!
The Orphan
jeanette
as we do not know it that could mess up the air recycling unit or blight
the plants.
Jeanette
LV Poker Player
>
>LV--It's not the monsters I am worried about. It is the itty-bitty life
>as we do not know it that could mess up the air recycling unit or blight
>the plants.
The conditions outside are SO different and harsh that I doubt any life as we
don't know it could even interract with these things in any way, harmful or
otherwise.
Also, we are not talking about landfill scale operations here. For practical
reasons, we HAVE to catch most of what we use and recycle it. I just question
the need to get totally anal about capturing every gram of waste material.
Also, some things we want to save for later use. I have mentioned the thermal
depolymerization process to turn organic material into petroleum, which lets us
get plastic at some point. It won't happen right away, but there is going to
be some stuff that we want to hang onto to put into it once we build it. How
much? Good grief, I would be totally amazed if it ran into very much. I'm
guessing that once we want oil and plastic, we will need to deliberately divert
some organic material into it, as well as whatever waste we have saved. What
to do with a few kilos or so that build up over time? Put it outside
somewhere. If it is non volatile and won't boil away, just drop it somewhere.
Have a designated spot so that we know where it is when we need it. For
volatiles, if there are enough to worry about, have storage tanks in a cave or
somewhere else out of direct sunlight.
If some form of life does develop under these conditions, bringing it into the
colony would almost certainly kill it. These things will be evolved for
temperature extremes, hard vacuum and radiation extremes. Put them in pressure
and moisture, give them ordinary lighting, and give them a moderate
temperature, and the effect would be about the same as a person stepping out of
the colony without a pressure suit. Neither one will last very long.
I think this whole scenario is HIGHLY unlikely. If it does happen, the
biochemistry department will probably be saying "WHAT? NO WAY! You leave that
pile of waste material right where it is. Get by without oil and plastic if
you have to, BUT HANDS OFF THE WASTE PILE!"
LV Poker Player
>Your trouble comes when you try to make Nitrogen, because we don't
>know of any Nitrogen-bearing rock in Luna.
>Could we make Nitrogen atoms from some other atom?
Online research says it is present in the amount of 100 parts per million, but
I don't know what form.
I agree with Jamie that any moves toward terraforming are FAR in the future,
probably over a century. Perhaps the oxygen could come from the lunar crust,
since it is 43% oxygen by weight. It cannot be pure oxygen though (see Apollo
1 fire). I am assuming no Arthur C. Clarke type of magic. If we do come up
with a way to transmute, fine, but I don't think counting on it is a good idea.
So I seriously doubt if that 100 ppm of nitrogen would be sufficient, even if
we could extract all of it. While launch costs should decrease over time, I
seriously doubt if they will ever decrease enough to make it practical to send
enough from Earth to do the job. Has any nitrogen ever been found in asteroids
or comets? It would take a LOT of these to bring in the needed amount though
(comets should give us water and maybe some other things).
With current technology or even reasonable extrapolations, it probably is not
possible. We probably do need to wait for the breakthroughs that make large
scale transmutation possible and cheap, or that make capturing comets and
asteroids as easy as a walk down to the corner store, or something like that.
Once we do have some hyothetical means to give Luna a breathable atmosphere and
solve any other problems, is gas loss going to be a major issue? I was under
the impression that this happens over a time frame of millions of years?
My whole point though is that this makes any worries about contaminating the
lunar surface pointless. No, I do not think 50's B movie style lifeforms
(Godzilla, microbes that can eat either lunar regolith or plants from Earth
with equal ease, or anything else) will grow out of whatever we put outside the
colony. We should worry about recycling for the welfare of the colony, not to
avoid polluting the lunar surface.
LV Poker Player
>If I get a chance to get on line tonight, I'll try the National
>Geographic web site for pics of the folks in the South African Gold
>mines...using jackscrews to hold the jackhammers in place against the
>working face of the mine. Still have to have both, and because of the
>need for pressurized gas to run the jack hammer, the area needs to be
>at least somewhat pressure tight...
>
>An alternative would be to use a similar set up with a large electric
>or hydraulic powered rotary hammer drill...less wasted gas, and
>possibly more rapid progress.
My thought was that an electric motor might drive the thing up and down,
instead of gas. I don't know if it is a good thought, mind you.
I'm going to lose the idea of the jackhammer. I think what is going to have to
happen is that several people on the planning staff will have to form a
committee. It needs excavation experts from mining and construction, a
geologist or two who know lunar composition, a vacuum expert or two, somebody
who knows explosives manufacturing techniques, and someone with experience
working in pressure suits.
Once they have jackhammered out some theoretical techniques, a test area should
be set up to simulate lunar conditions. It would be nice to have it in vacuum,
but I doubt if an area that big could be evacuated. Then we try their ideas.
One thing I had not thought of with the jackhammer is that it will result in
rock chips flying around at high speed. This is a bad idea when working in
hard vacuum wearing a pressure suit.
>>Maybe explosives are a better idea. Are there any that can be made out of
>>stuff available on the moon, and that could be made through fairly simple
>>processes? If not, we don't need them in industrial quantities by any
>means,
>>so maybe it would be feasible to ship these as needed. Use of a jackscrew
>>should keep the amount needed down.
>
>No, the jackscrew is to hold what ever drill in place, and you would
>need industrial quantities of explosives, if not quite the amounts
>that you need on Earth for similar effects, mainly because most of the
>boom you need on the Moon is for the breaking, and much less for the
>moving. This does require a high explosive, but if the cotton plants
>are up and going, and there is a decent source of high quality nitric
>and sulfuric acids, then gun cotton can be made...
I'm not sure how you define "industrial quantities." What I mean is that say
we decide to expand the colony. We have, say three people on the moon, they
have a couple of habitats going, then Earth radios them to expect a fourth.
They decide a new habitat similar in size to the first two is a good idea. This
will require kilos of explosive, I think, not tons of it.
We might want to depend mostly on the old fashioned stuff, things like a
sledge, a pick, a crowbar, and maybe some assorted chisels. We need a way to
hold the chisels in place for the sledge hammer, but this should not be too
hard to arrange, quite a bit easier than holding that jackhammer in place.
Having a second person hold the chisel while the first swings, then misses the
chisel and hits his helper, looks funny when it happens in Halfwits Holiday and
Moe takes the hit instead of the chisel. It is less funny when working in
vacuum wearing a pressure suit. There might be other implements useful for
this too.
Then when we hit an especially big rock formation, a few judicious explosive
charges just might persuade it to break up into more manageable chunks. I
mentioned a vibrodrill somewhat whimsically. Even an ordinary drill might be
of use (designed for vacuum work if necessary). Drilling a hole and putting in
the powder requires a smaller charge than setting it on the surface. Shaped
charges can blow the explosion mostly in one direction, as in the direction
that we want the rock to split. Tamping also reduces the size of charge
needed. Here on Earth, explosions are often tamped by sandbags. Set some of
them on one side of your charge, and the explosion goes mostly into the other
direction (such as into this stubborn rock formation). We probably don't want
to use traditional sandbags, since we don't want to blow up our cloth. Still,
some lunar boulders placed next to or on top of the charge should help.
By the time this is a city instead of a base, and the population numbers up in
the 4 or 5 digit range, we will probably need more large scale excavation
techniques, but we can worry about those later, building on what we will
inevitably learn from these early excavations. One thing I do expect: No
matter how we plan to dig, no matter how thoroughly we plan, research, simulate
and train on Earth, we will run into unexpected problems when we start
excavating on the moon.
Just how much digging was done by Apollo and the robot probes sent? How much
do we know about what to expect a few feet down?
Howard Berkowitz
Existing automated mining equipment used at coal faces and the like do
have water blasts to clear the cutters. Obviously, water won't work, but
you'd have to have some sort of shield around the cutters.
In addition, I don't think it's all that implausible to set up a
jackhammer in a stand, and control it with telepresence (Waldoes on
steroids).
charles krin
wrote:
>>From: charles krin
>
>>If I get a chance to get on line tonight, I'll try the National
>>Geographic web site for pics of the folks in the South African Gold
>>mines...using jackscrews to hold the jackhammers in place against the
>>working face of the mine. Still have to have both, and because of the
>>need for pressurized gas to run the jack hammer, the area needs to be
>>at least somewhat pressure tight...
>>
>>An alternative would be to use a similar set up with a large electric
>>or hydraulic powered rotary hammer drill...less wasted gas, and
>>possibly more rapid progress.
>
>My thought was that an electric motor might drive the thing up and down,
>instead of gas. I don't know if it is a good thought, mind you.
there are both electric and hydraulic versions, but both tend to use
rotary motion, and are usually either *much smaller* (truly man
portable) or *very much larger* (track mounted) than a jackhammer.
>
>I'm going to lose the idea of the jackhammer. I think what is going to have to
>happen is that several people on the planning staff will have to form a
>committee. It needs excavation experts from mining and construction, a
>geologist or two who know lunar composition, a vacuum expert or two, somebody
>who knows explosives manufacturing techniques, and someone with experience
>working in pressure suits.
>
>Once they have jackhammered out some theoretical techniques, a test area should
>be set up to simulate lunar conditions. It would be nice to have it in vacuum,
>but I doubt if an area that big could be evacuated. Then we try their ideas.
>
>One thing I had not thought of with the jackhammer is that it will result in
>rock chips flying around at high speed. This is a bad idea when working in
>hard vacuum wearing a pressure suit.
Eh...that's not that much of a problem...the chips in general will be
small, light and flying at ordinary, not orbital speeds...any suit
rated to handle micrometeoriods should work...with maybe extra
protection for the face plate and the 'chaps' area.
the drill or jack hammer will do *much* better at that...esp if you
use an electric version...remember that inertia works both ways when
you are swinging a great bloody hammer...better lots of little blows
over a small distance than a few great whomping blows over a long
distance.
>
>Then when we hit an especially big rock formation, a few judicious explosive
>charges just might persuade it to break up into more manageable chunks. I
>mentioned a vibrodrill somewhat whimsically. Even an ordinary drill might be
>of use (designed for vacuum work if necessary). Drilling a hole and putting in
>the powder requires a smaller charge than setting it on the surface. Shaped
>charges can blow the explosion mostly in one direction, as in the direction
>that we want the rock to split. Tamping also reduces the size of charge
>needed. Here on Earth, explosions are often tamped by sandbags. Set some of
>them on one side of your charge, and the explosion goes mostly into the other
>direction (such as into this stubborn rock formation). We probably don't want
>to use traditional sandbags, since we don't want to blow up our cloth. Still,
>some lunar boulders placed next to or on top of the charge should help.
good point...and there are other tricks, like shaping charges, that
also help.
>
>By the time this is a city instead of a base, and the population numbers up in
>the 4 or 5 digit range, we will probably need more large scale excavation
>techniques, but we can worry about those later, building on what we will
>inevitably learn from these early excavations. One thing I do expect: No
>matter how we plan to dig, no matter how thoroughly we plan, research, simulate
>and train on Earth, we will run into unexpected problems when we start
>excavating on the moon.
>
>Just how much digging was done by Apollo and the robot probes sent? How much
>do we know about what to expect a few feet down?
not much and a bit more, thanks to the lunar seismic work after the
Apollos...
LV Poker Player
>Existing automated mining equipment used at coal faces and the like do
>have water blasts to clear the cutters. Obviously, water won't work, but
>you'd have to have some sort of shield around the cutters.
>
>In addition, I don't think it's all that implausible to set up a
>jackhammer in a stand, and control it with telepresence (Waldoes on
>steroids).
Good thoughts. I think what I need is a statement along the lines "Lunar
excavation has to be carefully studied and planned, since conditions are so
different from Earth. Adaptations of presently used equipment such as
jackhammers and rotary rock hammers can be considered, keeping in mind the fact
that lower gravity and vacuum may cause them to behave differently than they do
on Earth. It might be necessary to secure the equipment in place, rather than
have a human operator hold onto it."
I am trying to walk a line between too much and too little when I describe how
something might be done. An expert in the field (any appropriate field) might
look at my little work and say "Wow, it's obvious this guy has not done any
electrical work." Then again, the other extreme is to make the entire file
consist of "I think we should plan a small lunar colony, then build it."
Howard Berkowitz
> >From: Howard Berkowitz
>
> >Existing automated mining equipment used at coal faces and the like do
> >have water blasts to clear the cutters. Obviously, water won't work, but
> >you'd have to have some sort of shield around the cutters.
> >
> >In addition, I don't think it's all that implausible to set up a
> >jackhammer in a stand, and control it with telepresence (Waldoes on
> >steroids).
>
> Good thoughts. I think what I need is a statement along the lines "Lunar
> excavation has to be carefully studied and planned, since conditions are
> so
> different from Earth. Adaptations of presently used equipment such as
> jackhammers and rotary rock hammers can be considered, keeping in mind
> the fact
> that lower gravity and vacuum may cause them to behave differently than
> they do
> on Earth. It might be necessary to secure the equipment in place, rather
> than
> have a human operator hold onto it."
I cannot resist sharing that Black & Decker's product names for their
electric jackhammers are the Macho III and the Macho V. Marketing types
discovered that (male) operators of jackhammers didn't want silencing on
that big powerful thing between their legs (ahem).
It does turn out that extensive jackhammer use does tend to lead to
infertile men.
fadermcgee
> >From: orphanofthesky
>
> >Your trouble comes when you try to make Nitrogen, because we don't
> >know of any Nitrogen-bearing rock in Luna.
> >Could we make Nitrogen atoms from some other atom?
>
> Online research says it is present in the amount of 100 parts per million,
but
> I don't know what form.
100 ppm seems a little thin. Looks like we're looking at husbanding our
colony's nitrogen very carefully - as in, when we use some of it to blow
stuff up, we sift through the broken rock near the charge and try to
recover as much of the nitrogen-containing compounds from the debris
as we can - perhaps heating it in a glass vessel at the focus of a mirror
array in order to free up the N2 as gas.
If we bring animals, we'll have plenty of nitrogen - and we'd be fools
not to recover as much as possible from our own sewage as well
as that generated by the animals. This should give us a respectable
"nitrogen bank" from which we can draw when something positively,
absolutely has to be blown to bits.
The types of explosives we make matter. Some are best for making
sharp cuts in rock, some better for crushing layers of rock into
gravel. About the only thing they have in common is that most of
them are nitrogen compounds.
There are non-nitrogen explosives, and we might consider making
them - in small quantities, because they're usually very touchy.
Candidate compounds include organic and organometallic
peroxides and (on the wild side) semistable compounds of the
noble gases.
If gas tight enclosures can be made within the lunar rock to be
demolished, fuel-air explosives might be effective.
We should also think about - for large projects which might
otherwise demand more explosives than could be safely or
economically made or shipped up from Earth - the use of
nuclear explosives. Pakistan has apparently decided to
sell nuclear weapons technology to other states - perhaps
they could be approached. We'd need a fusion-boosted
fission design of the "dial-a-yield" type which would allow
us to select the explosive yield to fit our needs.
The idea with a nuke would be to bore a deep hole in
the regolith, slide the nuke down it - if you've seen
_Armageddon_, you know what I'm talking about -
move away from the hole, and twist that detonator.
After the smoke clears, you have either a great cavity
or a crater where the deep hole was, the gases generated
by the nuclear detonation bleed off into the lunar
near-vacuum, and after a few months, the radioactivity
in the crater or cavity is low enough to be stopped
by pressure suits.
That might be sort of an ambitious plan, but the only
way that a small group of people is going to make a
go of this colony idea is to continually indulge in
outside-the-box thought, the better to leverage the
hazards and strangeness of the lunar environment
into tools which can be used.
VPF
fadermcgee
> >From: orphanofthesky
>
>
> Once we do have some hyothetical means to give Luna a breathable
atmosphere and
> solve any other problems, is gas loss going to be a major issue? I was
under
> the impression that this happens over a time frame of millions of years?
>
Maybe on Mars, which was a larger planet than the Moon with higher gravity.
On the Moon, however, you'd never manage to hold a breathable atmosphere
together - the gravity is too weak to hold the gas down densely enough to be
breathable - no matter how much atmosphere you bring in, it'll just wind up
expanding outward in a thin envelope of gas that is continually diffusing
out
into space. Smack enough cometary matter into Luna to make her mass
large enough to hold some sort of atmosphere, and you alter her orbital
dynamics, with perhaps unpredictable and untoward effects.
On the Moon, the idea is going to be that people live in enclosed spaces.
That doesn't necessarily mean dark caverns - even here on Earth it's
possible
to bring sunlight into seemingly deep, dark areas by being clever about
making shafts down which sunlight can be directed. Lunar sunlight ought
to be strong enough to make that a worthwhile way of lighting interiors.
Eventually, Loonies are going to have a self-sustaining ecology - always
with active human intervention and husbandry, but an ecology nonetheless.
Plants will grow in huge greenhouses, where stale air from habitations
is directed so that the carbon dioxide can be used by the plants and
oxygen from the plants substituted for it. Then the plants themselves
are harvested as needed.
VPF
fadermcgee
"Howard Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
news:hcb-92100D.2...@text.giganews.com...
> In article <ag.plusone-16393...@news.cis.dfn.de>, "David
> M. Silver" <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
<snip>
> No question that drinking has a long tradition in surface ships. I've
> had several former submariner friends, however, that if one bubblehead
> finds another drinking or drugging while on patrol, they will turn in
> their best buddy in a flash. They said one motto is "there is no such
> thing as a minor accident aboard a submarine", and the US sub subculture
> [couldn't resist] is absolutely intolerant of risking their lives on an
> impaired shipmate.
One good reason why there are few US Navy subs on the sea bottom;
and somewhat more Soviet and Russian ones down there.
The submarine analogy is a very good one - "Oops!" is much more
serious way under the surface of the ocean, or a quarter-million miles
away from Earth, than it is for most of us.
I suggested hemp purposefully - it is much lower in THC than the
varieties of cannabis from which marijuana is made. I'd be willing to
bet that hypoxia contributes more to the high from a hemp joint than
does the THC. And unlike many plants that I would replace with
in vitro culture media if I had the choice, most of the hemp plant
can be used as a textile or structural material, or even as food -
little or no waste results.
Good point about the intoxication issue, though - I wonder how
big the colony would have to be before drinking - by ones and twos -
could be tolerated in the colony. Ideas?
VPF
Howard Berkowitz
<vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote:
You can go back to submarine manning levels, and then extrapolate to
some other military situations, for a baseline.
On a submarine, and, for that matter, most surface combatants, EVERYONE
has a job when at General Quarters. GQ is called for combat or for major
damage control exercises. There are variants for different situations:
"battle stations missile" absolutely commits the missile technicians,
but the torpedomen might be able to join firefighting parties -- you
can't be fighting another vessel AND establishing the stability
necessary for ballistic missile launch. "Battle stations torpedo" makes
the torpedomen and sonar techs critical, while the missile techs fill in.
Nevertheless, the time that can be spent at GQ, without additional crew,
is measured in hours. Eventually, you have to free up some cooks, and
people to do some routine maintenance.
Now, let's switch to other situations where it's recognized a
maximum-effort condition has to continue indefinitely. The usual figure
for manning a single position 24/7/365, under civilian hours, is 5
(sometimes 5.2) people per job billet. I've seen this cut to 4 for
military situations, but it won't get much lower than that if you are
running indefinitely. In a command post such as the National Military
Command Center, there are five rotating watches.
It's not that people can't be motivated to work long shifts; it's that
fatigue makes them unreliable. Going back to Vance's point about fewer
American subs being on the bottom, a colleague used to be a Naval
nuclear reactor operator on carriers. ISTR that the time an operator
could be on the main console was measured in low hours, or even minutes.
He tells me that they had a specific pattern for monitoring displays,
and that he had to call for backup if he needed to turn his head away
from the console for more than a sneeze. He still had long watches, but
the reactor operators would rotate among the more and less intense
positions.
Now, there do seem to be limits on the duty time for pilots, built into
scheduling. For the unit to remain at peak effectiveness, there have to
be enough personnel billets for some people to be in mandatory rest.
You'll see relief pilots on transpacific flights. Fighters may make
18-hour ferry flights, but these are followed by mandatory rest before
new flight status. Even surgeons, with all their training about pushing
beyond time limits, still rotate when there's a 24- to 36-hour procedure.
Returning to the original question, you can tolerate intoxication in
off-duty people if their happy period and recovery period is within
their leisure time before they have to go back on duty -- and the
manning levels are such that there is never an all-hands requirement.
LV Poker Player
>Returning to the original question, you can tolerate intoxication in
>off-duty people if their happy period and recovery period is within
>their leisure time before they have to go back on duty -- and the
>manning levels are such that there is never an all-hands requirement.
Another thing that needs to be considered is the welfare of the whole colony,
even if the person seemingly only endangers himself. No, I do NOT like that
argument under ordinary circumstances, but it will be a long time before
circumstances on the moon resemble anything that us Earthlings would consider
ordinary.
For one thing, those on the surface will be carefully monitored for a long
time, perhaps always. John Q. Prospector checks out of airlock B at 1344
hours. He is known to have four hours of air, but policy is always to arrive
back with one hour of air in reserve, or at the very least radio in and give an
ETA at the 1 hour reserve mark. So at 1644 hours, MOA (Monitor, Outside
Activities) sounds the Man Overdue alarm and everyone available suits up and
heads out in an attempt to find him in that remaining hour. It doesn't matter
though. He was impaired due to being hung over from that party last night.
This caused him to fall and tear his suit.
In the early going, this is totally unacceptable. Casualties are going to be
pretty much inevitable, but they MUST be from accidents or unforeseen
circumstances, NEVER from impairment due to any sort of mind altering chemical.
We are not going to send anything from Earth without good reason. John Q.
Prospector presumably is highly skilled at prospecting and whatever else he
does, and these skills are vital for the colony to have. The next scheduled
launch was supposed to carry the nitrogen extraction equipment, not his
replacement.
Later on, when the colony is more of a city than a base, it might be less vital
to keep tabs on everyone, and a death or two might not mean much more than it
does on Earth. Hey, the black camel comes for all of us at some point. The
colony government (or command, however it is organized) might get out of the
monitor and rescue business. Some entrepreneur might set up Surface Rescue,
Inc. People on the surface frequently can pay a subscription rate, and those
who rarely go outside can pay on a per use basis. SR, Inc. then performs the
function of monitoring that "1 hour in reserve and he is not back. Radio him.
No answer. Call out the rescue team." If someone gets caught drinking and
suiting up, he is probably going to find his rates skyrocketing, the same way
car insurance rates skyrocket for someone convicted of DWI. If someone decides
to go out on the surface without paying SR, Inc. then that is his business.
It won't be that way when the colony population is in the single or double
digits though. By the time it hits 3 or 4 digits, maybe we can consider
something similar to Surface Rescue, Inc. Until then, we had bloody well
better screen these people before sending them, and turn down anyone who shows
the tiniest hint of any sort of substance abuse problem.
LV Poker Player
>Good point about the intoxication issue, though - I wonder how
>big the colony would have to be before drinking - by ones and twos -
>could be tolerated in the colony. Ideas?
See my reply to Howard concerning the issue in general. If we do not send them
any mind altering substances, and do not send anything purpose built for
fermentation and distillation, and send people who have NO history of substance
abuse, perhaps it can be allowed about the time they have set up fermentation
or distillation facilities on their own. Since we have screened them so
carefully, we can hope that (a) it takes them a while to get around to doing
this due to a lack of desire and (b) they keep the drunken binges under VERY
tight control once they do have their homebrew available.
Howard Berkowitz
For those of you who have been military aircrew, are there any flights
for which a flight surgeon routinely checks you before you get on board,
or is it more routine and spot check?
Unfortunately, we seem to have had several incidents of drunk pilots on
airliners (or reporting to fly same) recently. For some reason, it seems
to be a little more common out of Washington Dulles (where, IIRC, the
security chief was caught DWI).
>
> It won't be that way when the colony population is in the single or
> double
> digits though. By the time it hits 3 or 4 digits, maybe we can consider
> something similar to Surface Rescue, Inc.
Se TCwwtW for how NOT to have such a private rescue service.
LV Poker Player
>There are non-nitrogen explosives, and we might consider making
>them - in small quantities, because they're usually very touchy.
>Candidate compounds include organic and organometallic
>peroxides and (on the wild side) semistable compounds of the
>noble gases.
I don't like the idea of touchy explosives anywhere in the habitats. Even a
small explosion in a gas tight habitat is going to rupture eardrums at a
minimum.
We are going to be taking some risks, since doing anything outside the Earth's
atmosphere involves some risk. Sticking to very stable explosives made by an
expert who knows and follows every safety procedure might be an acceptable
risk. Even then, I might be happier to see a teleoperated explosives
manufacturing cubic set up at some point. Once that happens, we might consider
the more exotic and less stable stuff.
>We should also think about - for large projects which might
>otherwise demand more explosives than could be safely or
>economically made or shipped up from Earth - the use of
>nuclear explosives. Pakistan has apparently decided to
>sell nuclear weapons technology to other states - perhaps
>they could be approached. We'd need a fusion-boosted
>fission design of the "dial-a-yield" type which would allow
>us to select the explosive yield to fit our needs.
But what if the moon breaks up and enough pieces fall to Earth to destroy
civilization? See The Time Machine remake. :) Yes, I am joking.
I think this falls under long term planning. It might be a good idea, but by
the time we are actually ready to consider it we should have learned quite a
bit about lunar conditions, what works and what doesn't.
LV Poker Player
>> It won't be that way when the colony population is in the single or
>> double
>> digits though. By the time it hits 3 or 4 digits, maybe we can consider
>> something similar to Surface Rescue, Inc.
>
>Se TCwwtW for how NOT to have such a private rescue service.
True, and maybe monitoring, search and rescue will always be government
functions, similar to the coast guard here. As you probably know, I am not
wildly enthusiastic about government involvement in anything. This may be one
thing to get it into though. It still might be privately handled, but with
provisions similar to Earthside medical emergency response, where the EMT is
supposed to stabilize the person without asking to get paid first. When an
emergency call comes in, Surface Rescue, Inc. is legally required to get out
there and rescue, THEN call in a collections agency if necessary.
It might be similar to insurance, where they will come and get you no matter
what, but for subscribers rescue comes at a considerable discount or perhaps
free rescue as needed is part of the membership contract (or perhaps bronze,
silver and gold memberships are available, or various deductibles are
available, or something like that).
Of course, part of the service is monitoring. If you get lost and cannot find
your way back in time, and you have not bought their services so that they know
you are out there and when you should be back, and you are out of radio line of
sight, it might be a while before someone stumbles across your corpse.
And if someone won't pay up after a rescue, and the collection agent just
happens to get a little rough in the persuasive techniques, I think most people
would be inclined to look the other way. This will be a frontier type society
for quite a while, even after it has become more of a city than a base.
David M. Silver
lvpoke...@aol.com (LV Poker Player) wrote:
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Good point about the intoxication issue, though - I wonder how
> >big the colony would have to be before drinking - by ones and twos -
> >could be tolerated in the colony. Ideas?
>
> See my reply to Howard concerning the issue in general. If we do not send
> them
> any mind altering substances, and do not send anything purpose built for
> fermentation and distillation, and send people who have NO history of
> substance
> abuse, perhaps it can be allowed about the time they have set up fermentation
> or distillation facilities on their own. Since we have screened them so
> carefully, we can hope that (a) it takes them a while to get around to doing
> this due to a lack of desire and (b) they keep the drunken binges under VERY
> tight control once they do have their homebrew available.
The same approach works marvellously well with children, LV. Keep them
from wine and beer all through their juvenile years, and the first time
they get a chance, they binge. "Just say no!" and the problem will go
away. Works just as good with sex and drugs too! Just ask Nancy.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
LV Poker Player
>> >Good point about the intoxication issue, though - I wonder how
>> >big the colony would have to be before drinking - by ones and twos -
>> >could be tolerated in the colony. Ideas?
>>
>> See my reply to Howard concerning the issue in general. If we do not send
>> them
>> any mind altering substances, and do not send anything purpose built for
>> fermentation and distillation, and send people who have NO history of
>> substance
>> abuse, perhaps it can be allowed about the time they have set up
>fermentation
>> or distillation facilities on their own. Since we have screened them so
>> carefully, we can hope that (a) it takes them a while to get around to
>doing
>> this due to a lack of desire and (b) they keep the drunken binges under
>VERY
>> tight control once they do have their homebrew available.
>
>
>The same approach works marvellously well with children, LV. Keep them
>from wine and beer all through their juvenile years, and the first time
>they get a chance, they binge. "Just say no!" and the problem will go
>away. Works just as good with sex and drugs too! Just ask Nancy.
Bullshit. Did I say that they should never take a drink in their entire lives
until they get to the moon? Did I David? No I did not.
I specified no history of substance abuse. Not the tiniest hint of a history
of substance abuse. It is entirely possible for an adult to have experience
with alcoholic beverages, but NOT abuse them, EVER. In fact, I just might
prefer the guy who likes a beer or two while watching the Sunday afternoon
game, as long as it stops there, over a teetotaller, pretty much for the
reasons you stated.
What is your suggestion? Send up some homebrew equipment and supplies
(homebrewing is becoming more popular and these are commonly available)? Send
them a still as well maybe?
I say send the people who can get along without the stuff for a while, because
are not and never have been heavy drinkers. Send the people who think building
a telescope is more interesting than building a homebrew setup and then
consuming the results.
Then, people being people, some genius will figure out how to coax the
hydroponics products into fermenting, then possibly into distilling the
fermentation results. Once again, I do kind of hope these are the type of
people who will make this a low priority, behind things like telescopes and
nitrogen extraction and looking at ways to cut down on outgassing and such.
Still, alcohol production is not exactly complex or high tech, and no doubt the
materials needed can be improvised. These people have to mechanically
inclined, so if they really want to it probably won't be all that hard.
So, no, I am NOT saying we should prohibit alcohol consumption in the colony.
We just don't need to encourage it either, or send colonists who have gone
through AA multiple times trying to dry out.
Out of a population of 6 billion or so, I think it should be possible to find 3
or 4 who can meet the criteria of no history of substance abuse, rarely if ever
get falling down drunk, and can put off the brewery and still for an indefinite
period because they WANT to build telescopes, they WANT to conduct chemical
experiments in hard vacuum, they WANT to build a brand new habitat that can be
used exclusively as a laboratory, they WANT to explore the surface, they WANT
to dig holes other than the colony excavations just to find out what is down
there. Work on setting up the brewery? Umm, not today, number 3 telescope is
not tracking properly and I need to find out why.
charles krin
wrote:
>
>And if someone won't pay up after a rescue, and the collection agent just
>happens to get a little rough in the persuasive techniques, I think most people
>would be inclined to look the other way. This will be a frontier type society
>for quite a while, even after it has become more of a city than a base.
no need...you don't pay up, then your wages and air tax are dunned
until the debt is satisfied...it's not like you're going to need a
skip tracer...
charles krin
also ones with numb hands...
fadermcgee
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Good point about the intoxication issue, though - I wonder how
> >big the colony would have to be before drinking - by ones and twos -
> >could be tolerated in the colony. Ideas?
>
> See my reply to Howard concerning the issue in general. If we do not send
them
> any mind altering substances, and do not send anything purpose built for
> fermentation and distillation, and send people who have NO history of
substance
> abuse, perhaps it can be allowed about the time they have set up
fermentation
> or distillation facilities on their own.
Chuckle. Sending people who have any sort of sugar or starch in their diet
into an environment with unlimited near-vacuum gives them ready access to
both fermentation and distillation - most people have flora in their mouths
which will ferment starches more or less efficiently, and a yard or so of
copper
tubing and a few air/vapor tight containers that can be mated to the tubing
would make an efficient still.
There are biochemical and genetic tests which can be applied which allow
a reasonable chance of screening some (not all) substance abuse-prone and
actual ethanol abusers out of the candidate pool for mission crew. But do
we screen out people who have much to contribute to the potential success
of the mission because of a 65 percent chance that their DNA might make
them a little too fond of the bottle?
> Since we have screened them so
> carefully, we can hope that (a) it takes them a while to get around to
doing
> this due to a lack of desire and (b) they keep the drunken binges under
VERY
> tight control once they do have their homebrew available.
Not like they have a chance of hiding a drinking problem, right?
Any Royal Navy vets out there that can tell us what the drill is on THEIR
subs?
VPF
Bill Reich
I was already designing the greenhouse to grow some Selene Seedless
(tm) and you guys start talking about preventitive measures. As soon
as there is sufficient off-duty time and enough people to cover for
others who are off-shift, people are going to do what they are going
to do. And I am going to go do some now.
--
Will in New Haven
OrphanOfTheSky
from Orphan of the Sky
Dear fellow Loonies
"Amidst every field of golden wheat toss red poppies. The Almighty
knows in His wisdom that wherever there is hunger to be fed there will
also be pain to be soothed." Oswald
Osler
Before I have a tooth pulled in Luna I want to know that poopy, hemp
and coca grow in our hydroponic garden. The sugeons will need alcohol
too, to sterilize their tools.
How did the navy deal with the risk of misuse? By rationing - one tot
of rum a day except special occasions - and by custom - not before the
sun is below the yard arm, and not the officer on watch.
We can hadle this.
Hot jets!
The Orphan
fadermcgee
"OrphanOfTheSky" <orphano...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ad5f8186.04021...@posting.google.com...
> willre...@yahoo.com (Bill Reich) wrote in message
news:<7ce91b09.04021...@posting.google.com>...
> > "fadermcgee" <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote in message
news:<402ae...@omega.dimensional.com>...
> > > "LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:20040210143628...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> > > > >From: "fadermcgee"
> >
> >
> > I was already designing the greenhouse to grow some Selene Seedless
> > (tm) and you guys start talking about preventitive measures. As soon
> > as there is sufficient off-duty time and enough people to cover for
> > others who are off-shift, people are going to do what they are going
> > to do. And I am going to go do some now.
Selenesinsemilla? And if you can say that three times, real fast, you
haven't smoked enough yet.....
> from Orphan of the Sky
>
> Dear fellow Loonies
>
> "Amidst every field of golden wheat toss red poppies. The Almighty
> knows in His wisdom that wherever there is hunger to be fed there will
> also be pain to be soothed." Oswald
> Osler
>
> Before I have a tooth pulled in Luna I want to know that poopy, hemp
> and coca grow in our hydroponic garden.
No problemo... we use the poopy to fertilize the other stuff. :-)
> The sugeons will need alcohol too, to sterilize their tools.
Ouch! not even going there.....
> How did the navy deal with the risk of misuse? By rationing - one tot
> of rum a day except special occasions - and by custom - not before the
> sun is below the yard arm, and not the officer on watch.
Problems being:
a) drunkenness is not just a passive problem when there's no air out there -
if the one person whose turn it is to be drunk, stoned, high. whatever
forgets his bearings and opens the airlock when he's trying to go to the
bathroom instead, the whole station has an immediate, possibly fatal problem
b) no room for detox in a lunar space station
c) substance abuse often exacerbates personality disorders like paranoid
ideation. Do I have to go on?
d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will probably
be few and far between.
Sorry, guys, I don't see getting wide as a viable option on a bare-bones
lunar station.
VPF
atwork
> a) drunkenness is not just a passive problem when there's no air out
there -
> if the one person whose turn it is to be drunk, stoned, high. whatever
> forgets his bearings and opens the airlock when he's trying to go to the
> bathroom instead, the whole station has an immediate, possibly fatal
problem
Not with a properly designed airlock, where one door physically can't open
while the other is open. At most you have 1 dead drunk.
> b) no room for detox in a lunar space station
How about the aforementioned properly designed airlock? %^)
> c) substance abuse often exacerbates personality disorders like paranoid
> ideation. Do I have to go on?
Drunk: "I'm telling you guys, I saw someone looking in through the
porthole."
Me (smartass): "Yeah, that was your predecessor. He got drunk and wandered
out of our properly designed airlock. Now the airlock is haunted by his
shamed shade."
> d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
> opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will
probably
> be few and far between.
Again... do it the way they do on submarines (although, this probably means
no booze, as well.)
--
Oscagne
Howard Berkowitz
<atwork.ev1.null> wrote:
> "fadermcgee" <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote in message
> news:402df...@omega.dimensional.com...
> > a) drunkenness is not just a passive problem when there's no air out
> there -
> > if the one person whose turn it is to be drunk, stoned, high. whatever
> > forgets his bearings and opens the airlock when he's trying to go to
> > the
> > bathroom instead, the whole station has an immediate, possibly fatal
> problem
>
> Not with a properly designed airlock, where one door physically can't
> open
> while the other is open. At most you have 1 dead drunk.
Not to be forgotten is that there are occasions where it might be useful
to expose a community bathroom to vacuum.
LV Poker Player
>> d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
>> opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will
>probably
>> be few and far between.
>
>Again... do it the way they do on submarines (although, this probably means
>no booze, as well.)
Probably. I am standing by my position. Nothing in the original station will
be intended for mind alteration. No handy dandy homebrew kit, and while we
will need distillation equipment for various reasons, including but not limited
to water reclamation, we will not send up a liquor still.
Furthermore, these people will be about as carefully chosen and trained as the
astronaut corps. Are they really going to WANT to spend their time converting
the water reclamation unit into a part time still when it is not actually
needed to reclaim water? Our evaluation team should be good enough to weed out
anyone who tries to conceal a desire for the mind altering chemicals.
Same deal with the anesthetics. The medical stores will be for medicine,
period. Once again, our evaluation team on Earth should be good enough to
prevent anyone with a desire for non medical uses from getting to the colony.
Yes, this would screen me out in a big hurry (not to mention being an
uncoordinated klutz due to Asperger Syndrome). For a long time this colony
will have no use whatsoever for uncoordinated klutzes, for borderline alcholics
even if they do realize they had better get it under control before it gets
totally out of control, for those who like the occasional toke, for nicotine
addicts whether the ingestion is by smoking or other means, and so on.
I am against the war on drugs. I think that all victimless crime laws should
be repealed, including but not limited to drug laws. This does not mean I
think we should have drunken parties on submarines or in the lunar colony
though. Sorry.
Yes, we can and should design the airlock so that it is impossible (or at least
incredibly difficult) to open both doors at once. Make it a two person (or
more) release control operation to evacuate the colony (we have a mutated
microbe loose, or something). If this were the one and only problem with
drunkenness, sure, fix it so that a drunk cannot evacuate the colony no matter
what he does, since that is a good idea in and of itself. This is not the one
and only problem though.
As you point out (snipped) this way the drunk can only kill himself. That is
better than killing everyone, sure. Still, we are supposed to be sending
things from Earth other than replacements for drunks who kill themselves, such
as a brand new person who can expand colony capabilities in some way.
I envision this colony someday growing into the large self supporting operation
that I first envisioned, with the population up in the 4 or 5 or 6 digit or
higher range, partly from Earth immigration and partly from lunar births.
Somewhere along this route, there is no doubt whatsoever that alcohol and other
mind altering chemicals will make their appearance. We have no need to hurry
this process along though. Let's send up some additional telescope tracking
gear, rather than a homebrew setup. Let's send people who are more interested
in building and operating those telescopes than they are in turning hydroponics
products into homebrew. Better yet, let's send the stuff they need to build
their own telescope tracking gear, as well as building the telescopes
themselves.
Howard Berkowitz
> >From: "atwork"
>
> >> d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
> >> opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will
> >probably
> >> be few and far between.
> >
> >Again... do it the way they do on submarines (although, this probably
> >means
> >no booze, as well.)
>
> Probably. I am standing by my position. Nothing in the original station
> will
> be intended for mind alteration. No handy dandy homebrew kit, and while
> we
> will need distillation equipment for various reasons, including but not
> limited
> to water reclamation, we will not send up a liquor still.
>
> Furthermore, these people will be about as carefully chosen and trained
> as the
> astronaut corps. Are they really going to WANT to spend their time
> converting
> the water reclamation unit into a part time still when it is not actually
> needed to reclaim water? Our evaluation team should be good enough to
> weed out
> anyone who tries to conceal a desire for the mind altering chemicals.
One must remember that the typical person that goes to a colony such as
this will consider the very experience mind-altering. I suspect many of
us have realized, with a shock, that we'd been engaged in a drugless yet
mind-altering, and perhaps very creative, activity for well over 24
hours.
Between the screening and the motivation, I doubt there will be many
early people that will feel the lack of such substances. I'm not a
teetotaler, but I'm trying to think of the last time I was drunk -- at
least 15 years ago. My bar is well-stocked, with some standard things
for guests, but really for me the assortment of single-malts, cognacs,
and liqueurs -- I enjoy the taste, and maybe a very slight glow. Yep, I
have some Coronas in the refrigerator -- sometimes, Tex-Mex isn't the
same without them.
fadermcgee
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Well, there's lots of oxygen all there and waiting for us tied up in the
> >lunar
> >regolith, and you'd be surprised how many things go BANG! in the presence
> >of liquid oxygen and a little encouragement :-)
>
> Here is another link you may have missed:
> http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Times/September_95/2.5HowTo.html
>
> More seriously, how hard is it to make liquid oxygen from the gaseous
kind?
Just shuffling around on the Web, I found this Indian chem engineering type
who has designed a liquid oxygen/nitrogen plant which may be as small as
they get - depressingly, that's about 6 tons/tonnes.
Why so big? The guy explains (reading his prose, you can almost hear the
"Apu from the Simpsons" Bombay Welsh accent) it in this link, complete with
schematic drawings:
Apparently it's damn hard to make LOX, and the process he mentions - which
sounds like it's probably close to the minimum requirements - may not even
work on Luna, because it depends on availability of excess nitrogen -
standard 80 percent N, 18 percent O - to provide the cryogenic heat sink
necessary to chill the oxygen down enough. Then there's the little matter
of the molecular sieve needed to get oil and other contaminants out of the
gaseous feed stream - although it seems to me that laser separation might
dramatically reduce both the size and power requirements for the molecular
sieve part of the plant.
Assuming that the extreme weignt of the plant and the lack of sufficient
nitrogen in the feedstock shoot LOX down as a feasible working material,
that still leaves the manufacture of any number of carrier compounds for
oxygen which are useful in explosives - the alkali chlorates, ozone - which
is easy to make and unstable enough to be useful in explosives, organic and
organometallic peroxides, permanganates - LOX isn't really necessary.
> You are right. Online research shows the lunar crust to be 43% oxygen by
> weight. When we smelt, we will probably capture what is needed and let a
lot
> of it go. As I mentioned in the original text, liquid oxygen might have
many
> uses, especially once we set up a mass driver. If some Earth agency wants
to
> send a really large probe to be launched out of the mass driver, we can
supply
> it with the oxidizer at least, instead of boosting it out of the gravity
well.
> It might be possible to boost some into Low Earth Orbit, to rendezvous
with
> Earth launches and once again avoid boosting it out of the gravity well,
> boosting payload instead.
If we CAN make LOX, how about a cold launch mode - rapidly evaporating LOX
in the bell of a thruster might impart enough delta-vee to a probe to get it
off the Moon, where its onboard thrusters can handle the trans-stage and
orbit-matchng thrust tasks.
It's on the outside possible that the Lorentz Mass Accelerator ion engine
that NASA is looking at might be able to provide lunar escape velocity,
either by itself or with "boosters" which would be jettisoned during boost
stage and recovered by crews on the Moon.
If metal fabrication and manufacture of electronic packages succeed on the
Moon, one of the colony's sustaining industries might be manufacturing and
launching space probes. Planetary science is just one use for these
probes - they might come in handy for either snagging small asteroids and
comets or diverting them from
collision courses with Earth - of course, that sort of energy requirement is
only liable to be met with nuclear explosives - a plutonium initiator
supplied by Earth used to fuse Helium-3 from the lunar crust.
VPF
fadermcgee
"LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040207175932...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Well, there's lots of oxygen all there and waiting for us tied up in the
> >lunar
> >regolith, and you'd be surprised how many things go BANG! in the presence
> >of liquid oxygen and a little encouragement :-)
>
> Here is another link you may have missed:
> http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Times/September_95/2.5HowTo.html
>
> More seriously, how hard is it to make liquid oxygen from the gaseous
kind?
Going to contact the people who make this little beauty - a LOX plant
specifically made to fit in a
C-130, which makes transporting it to the colony possibly do-able - perhaps
as part of a joint venture with NASA, ESA, NASDA, etc.
Of course, the question could raise a few eyebrows: "Excuse me, but I
couldn't help admiring your liquid air plant - does it HAVE to have air as a
feedstock, or could you put pure oxygen in and still get LOX without using
nitrogen to help with the cooling process? You see, we're designing a lunar
colony, and while we have unlimited oxygen available... "
VPF
fadermcgee
"LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040207175932...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> >From: "fadermcgee"
>
> >Well, there's lots of oxygen all there and waiting for us tied up in the
> >lunar
> >regolith, and you'd be surprised how many things go BANG! in the presence
> >of liquid oxygen and a little encouragement :-)
>
> Here is another link you may have missed:
> http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Times/September_95/2.5HowTo.html
Hoo hoo! Yeah, that guy used to come down from Purdue to Indianapolis to do
his barbecue trick for the big city tee-vee stations when we lived in
Indiana. I think he even starred on an episode of "Home Improvement" (what
we need is MORE POWER!!! <grunting noises signifying approval>)
VPF
LV Poker Player
>Apparently it's damn hard to make LOX, and the process he mentions - which
>sounds like it's probably close to the minimum requirements - may not even
>work on Luna, because it depends on availability of excess nitrogen -
>standard 80 percent N, 18 percent O - to provide the cryogenic heat sink
>necessary to chill the oxygen down enough. Then there's the little matter
>of the molecular sieve needed to get oil and other contaminants out of the
>gaseous feed stream - although it seems to me that laser separation might
>dramatically reduce both the size and power requirements for the molecular
>sieve part of the plant.
Lunar conditions might work in our favor. We should be starting with pure
oxygen from the smelter, so filtering will be unnecessary. Even during lunar
daylight we can work in a cave or something, so we have low temperatures
available. It seems to me that all we need to do is add some pressure, which
should not be difficult.
As always, precision engineered stuff, electronics and such have to be sent
from Earth. We should be able to build tanks and such on the moon.
Bill Reich
On a bare-bones station, I would have to agree. However, it would be
simply a safety regulation, not an expression of puritan hatred of
everyday pleasure. A serious safety violation could, of course, merit
serious penalties. I would hope that such regulations would not remain
in effect once real off-duty time existed and safety issues were not
involved. Moving faith-based, family values bullshit to the moon or
beyond would a very grim prospect.
ps: Have you ever noticed that almost everyone who speaks about "this
spaceship Earth" seems to quietly assume the captaincy?
--
Will in New Haven
"Things that used to matter seem so small;
When you're lookin' for a soft place to fall."
"A Soft Place to Fall"
Alison Moorer
fadermcgee
"Bill Reich" <willre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ce91b09.04021...@posting.google.com...
> "fadermcgee" <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote in message
news:<402df...@omega.dimensional.com>...
> > "OrphanOfTheSky" <orphano...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:ad5f8186.04021...@posting.google.com...
> > > willre...@yahoo.com (Bill Reich) wrote in message
> > news:<7ce91b09.04021...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > "fadermcgee" <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote in message
> > news:<402ae...@omega.dimensional.com>...
> > > > > "LV Poker Player" <lvpoke...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20040210143628...@mb-m04.aol.com...
<snip>
> > > How did the navy deal with the risk of misuse? By rationing - one tot
> > > of rum a day except special occasions - and by custom - not before the
> > > sun is below the yard arm, and not the officer on watch.
> >
> > Problems being:
> >
> > a) drunkenness is not just a passive problem when there's no air out
there -
> > if the one person whose turn it is to be drunk, stoned, high. whatever
> > forgets his bearings and opens the airlock when he's trying to go to the
> > bathroom instead, the whole station has an immediate, possibly fatal
problem
> >
> > b) no room for detox in a lunar space station
> >
> > c) substance abuse often exacerbates personality disorders like paranoid
> > ideation. Do I have to go on?
> >
> > d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
> > opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will
probably
> > be few and far between.
> >
> > Sorry, guys, I don't see getting wide as a viable option on a bare-bones
> > lunar station.
> >
> > VPF
>
> On a bare-bones station, I would have to agree.
That's the situation I was positing - a crew numbering in single or low
double digits.
> However, it would be
> simply a safety regulation, not an expression of puritan hatred of
> everyday pleasure.
I agree. If I were provost of the colony, I would enforce the regulation
with reluctance, but enforce it I would - as my part of increasing the
safety level of the colony.
> A serious safety violation could, of course, merit
> serious penalties. I would hope that such regulations would not remain
> in effect once real off-duty time existed and safety issues were not
> involved. Moving faith-based, family values bullshit to the moon or
> beyond would a very grim prospect.
THAT was not my intention. My faith remains my faith, not a system I wish
to impose on others coercively.
I suspect we agree that living rules ought to be libertarian within the
context of making everyone responsible for the safety of the colony.
Sometimes people tend to forget that libertarianism embraces those civic
duties which are necessary to help society run. Jury duty (which I have
coming up early in March) is a prime example - and in a small lunar colony,
staying sober is just as pleasant - but just as essential.
> ps: Have you ever noticed that almost everyone who speaks about "this
> spaceship Earth" seems to quietly assume the captaincy?
Oh, yeah. Algore, though, reminded me of the captain of the starship
containing the useless third of the population of Golgafrincham in _The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ - he seemed to be off on his own little
reality, amiably oblivious to what was going on under his conmand.
I'm sure that the candidate of one major political party (at least) has
James T. Kirk Disease this year - Kuchinich leans more toward functioning as
Mr. Spock - while the candidates of some smaller parties seem to think they
are captains of Spaceship Planet Orbiting a Distant Star.
VPF
VPF
fadermcgee
"atwork" <atwork.ev1.null> wrote in message
news:102s5u9...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "fadermcgee" <vfri...@rikochet.com> wrote in message
> news:402df...@omega.dimensional.com...
> > a) drunkenness is not just a passive problem when there's no air out
> there -
> > if the one person whose turn it is to be drunk, stoned, high. whatever
> > forgets his bearings and opens the airlock when he's trying to go to the
> > bathroom instead, the whole station has an immediate, possibly fatal
> problem
>
> Not with a properly designed airlock, where one door physically can't open
> while the other is open. At most you have 1 dead drunk.
Murphy's Law, my friend, has an unfortunate corollary: Never underestimate a
the ability of a drunk, a fool, or a toddler to break the unbreakable.
Ethanol has this wonderful ability to free the inner child in all of us...
the same inner child who should never operate motor vehicles, power tools or
life support-critical systems in a space habitat.
> > b) no room for detox in a lunar space station
>
> How about the aforementioned properly designed airlock? %^)
Lois McMaster Bujold had an even better idea - in one of her stories, a
boarding party entered the hero's spaceship in armored spacesuits.
Unfortunately, they were met at the airlock by the hero, who was aiming a
crew-served particle weapon at them. They dropped their weapons and had to
submit to the indignity of having the joints on their armor locked so that
they could not move.
Being locked in a p-suit while the erstwhile substance abuser goes through
withdrawal, the d.t.'s or whatever would seem like the most prudent course -
for the others in the station.
> > c) substance abuse often exacerbates personality disorders like paranoid
> > ideation. Do I have to go on?
>
> Drunk: "I'm telling you guys, I saw someone looking in through the
> porthole."
>
> Me (smartass): "Yeah, that was your predecessor. He got drunk and
wandered
> out of our properly designed airlock. Now the airlock is haunted by his
> shamed shade."
_Enterprise_ used that plot device this week - Dr. Phlox was the only person
awake on the Enterprise for a week or so, and _he_ started seeing things out
the portholes - just like William Shatner and John Lithgow did on the TV and
movie versions, respectively, of _The Twilight Zone_.
> > d) workload on a minimally-staffed lunar outpost will be such that
> > opportunities for leisure of any sort, much less intoxication, will
> probably
> > be few and far between.
>
> Again... do it the way they do on submarines (although, this probably
means
> no booze, as well.)
Under US Naval regulations, that's a big 10-4, buddy. I gather the Royal
Navy is kinder to its crews, and wonder what the incidence of
alcohol-related "incidents" is on British submarines underway. Anybody
happen to know? I'd be willing to bet that the number of Soviet and Russian
subs on the ocean floor is due in part to the consumption of vodka onboard,
since their overall standard of marine engineering is not too far from our
own, from all accounts.
But again, on military subs of any nationality, there's less goof-off time
than you might think. The US Navy "encourages" its submariners to
cross-train, so that there is what in football we call "depth" - no critical
skill has just one practitioner on the crew. This requires men to spend
part of their off-watch time training and being tested on occupational
specialties other than their own.
This probably would be a much more urgent requirement on a lunar colony, at
least until the number of crew exceeds four full shifts/watches in every
position, plus a reserve for emergency damage control - and in the probable
event that the New Cold War moves out to the Moon, a full complement of
combat personnel for whatever weapons systems are deployed in or near the
station.
VPF
Engr Bohn
Hail, fadermcgee! We who are about to post salute you.
[...]
> Murphy's Law, my friend, has an unfortunate corollary: Never underestimate a
> the ability of a drunk, a fool, or a toddler to break the unbreakable.
> Ethanol has this wonderful ability to free the inner child in all of us...
> the same inner child who should never operate motor vehicles, power tools or
> life support-critical systems in a space habitat.
[...]
My father tells me of his inability to keep me in my bedroom at naptime
when I was 3 or 4 years old. I could use a doorknob, so they had a
plastic doorknob cover that has to be squeezed to grip the doorknob --
the theory being that only an adult (or older child) had the
handstrength to squeeze the cover and turn the knob. And sure enough,
when I tried to turn it, the plastic cover just spun over the knob.
One day, about five minutes after putting me down for a nap, he found me
walking down the hall. Taking me back to my bedroom, he found the door
open. So we went into the bedroom, and he closed the door and asked me
to demonstrate how I opened it. So instead of gripping the handle to
turn it, I wrapped my fingers behind it. Planting a foot firmly on the
door, I then pulled the cover off the knob (landing flat on my butt). I
then opened the door and put the knob cover back on the knob.
Well, my dad was amused, but it was naptime. So he put me back in bed,
closed the door, and placed a wedge of wood under the door to act as a
doorstop. About five minutes later, the doorbell rang, and there I was
at the front door asking to come in -- since I couldn't leave my bedroom
through the door, I went out the window.
Take care,
cb
--
Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
20 February 1948 -- The first Boeing B-50 Superfortress, the US
Air Force's last propeller-driven bomber, is delivered.