Lazarus and Michael
djpaws
I've read Time Enough for Love 6 times now, the only RAH book I've
read so far, and was recently gifted a copy of Stranger in a Strange
Land.
At one point, Jubal says he may nickname Valentine Michael Smith
"Lazarus"
I am just wondering what, if any, the connection between the two
characters is, or if Heinlein just enjoys references to other
characters he has written. Since he is a Smith, it just got me
wondering.
Any insight from other readers would be great!
thanks
Catherine Jefferson
Well, to begin with, Stranger in a Strange Land was first published in
1961. Time Enough for Love was first published in 1972. While some of
the characters in it (including Lazarus Long) were already in existence
in other works published before 1961, as best I know TEFL was not even a
gleam in Heinlein's eye at the time. Heinlein did a lot of retconning
of his future history and other books in unrelated worlds to create a
meta-history. I suspect the use of the extremely common last name
"Smith" in both books was probably coincidence.
I think David Silver hangs out in here, though, and he can give a far
more authoritative answer than I (or most of us) can.
--
Catherine Jefferson <ar...@devsite.org>
Personal Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
jeanette
death (or maybe in the case of Michael, is reborn).
Jeanette
Michael Black
> djpaws wrote:
>> Hey Everyone
>> I've read Time Enough for Love 6 times now, the only RAH book I've
>> read so far, and was recently gifted a copy of Stranger in a Strange
>> Land.
>> At one point, Jubal says he may nickname Valentine Michael Smith
>> "Lazarus"
>> I am just wondering what, if any, the connection between the two
>> characters is, or if Heinlein just enjoys references to other
>> characters he has written. Since he is a Smith, it just got me
>> wondering.
>> Any insight from other readers would be great!
>
> Well, to begin with, Stranger in a Strange Land was first published in 1961.
> Time Enough for Love was first published in 1972. While some of the
> characters in it (including Lazarus Long) were already in existence in other
> works published before 1961, as best I know TEFL was not even a gleam in
> Heinlein's eye at the time. Heinlein did a lot of retconning of his future
> history and other books in unrelated worlds to create a meta-history. I
> suspect the use of the extremely common last name "Smith" in both books was
> probably coincidence.
>
Except, Lazarus Long made his first appearance in "Methuselah's Children"
which first came out in 1941, and expanded into a novel in 1958.
So it precedes by decades "Stranger in a Strange Land".
I don't think there is a connection.
Michael
Bill Patterson
Reborn, I think -- "Lazarus, come forth"
Sometimes Heinlein uses names for special thematic meanings -- but
sometimes he uses them also for their value as common cultural coin.
I think the unusual qualities of the name for, e.g., Valentine Michael
Smith were chosen for special symbolism. Not only the symbolism in
the names that have been much discussed over the years, but also the
"Martian Named Smith" figure had some kind of power within science
fiction as standing against a traditional way of handling aliens
within SF writing.
But Woodrow Wilson Smith is harder to understand in quite the same
way. Leon Stover pointed out this was a pattern Heinlein used often
enough to be noticeable, of combining notable given names with common
or non-notable family names -- "Andrew Jackson Libby" was another
example. Possibly the twins of The Rolling Stones might fit into that
classifcation also.
David M. Silver
<ca493a7a-b9ba-44ce...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Bill Patterson <whpat...@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps twins Castor and Pollux Stone, but doubly certain the other set
of male twins, Thomas Paine Leonardo da Vinci Bartlett and Patrick Henry
Michaelangelo Bartlett from _Time for the Stars_ (as well as the two
James Madison Marlowes, both Sr. and Jr., from _Red Planet_).
Picking Woodrow Wilson as a name for your son today might seem a flawed
choice. The Wilson moral vision had as its "greatest single defect" his
southern born and bred prejudice against African-Americans. He was more
than "a man of his times" in that area. He affirmed and presided over
institutionalization of Jim Crow within the federal government. U.S.
History is rife with examples of the detrimental impact of that, e.g.,
the pretexts taken by the Army to prevent Colonel Charles Young (the
third African-American to graduate from West Point and the first to
survive prejudice within the Army long enough to achieve field grade
rank and qualify to retire) from a regimental command (and ultimate
promotion to general officer grade) along with most of his West Point
peers who served through the end of World War I. See, including the
Congressional Resolution at the end:
http://www.buffalosoldier.net/CharlesYoung.htm
Still, Wilson, if not even close to being the best, wasn't the worst of
a bad lot in that area. I'd vote "little brown brother" Taft his equal
in prejudice; and Taft, from Ohio, didn't even have the excuse of his
childhood's culture as raised by Wilson apologists. Even Theodore
Roosevelt was infected with that disease of the mind (the Brownsville
shame for example); and, also, I'll refrain from commenting on the
likelihood of there being more than a few men named Dick or Rick or Rich
or Richard in their early forties running around who do not publicize
what the middle initial of "N" stands for on their birth certificate.
I think Jeanette is correct about the meaning of Lazarus in both
Stranger and, of course, the "Lazarus Long" tales.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt.(jg), USN, R'td
Michael Black
> Picking Woodrow Wilson as a name for your son today might seem a flawed
> choice. The Wilson moral vision had as its "greatest single defect" his
> southern born and bred prejudice against African-Americans. He was more
> than "a man of his times" in that area. He affirmed and presided over
> institutionalization of Jim Crow within the federal government. U.S.
> History is rife with examples of the detrimental impact of that, e.g.,
> the pretexts taken by the Army to prevent Colonel Charles Young (the
> third African-American to graduate from West Point and the first to
> survive prejudice within the Army long enough to achieve field grade
> rank and qualify to retire) from a regimental command (and ultimate
> promotion to general officer grade) along with most of his West Point
> peers who served through the end of World War I. See, including the
> Congressional Resolution at the end:
> http://www.buffalosoldier.net/CharlesYoung.htm
>
Ah, but Rhysling was named after Woodrow Wilson.
Woody Guthrie's fully name was Woodrow Wilson Guthrie, so named somewhat
before Wilson became president.
Michael
Dr. Rufo
First, I suggest that your repeated readings of TEFL should be taken as
an indication
that you'd probably enjoy reading other Heinlein works.
This URL lists other possibilities for your exploration of Heinlein's canon:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/
or, if you prefer,
On RAH's use of names, I recommend the information provided by Dave Silver
and Bill Patterson in their responses to your Original Post.
Pax,
Rufe
Dr. Rufo
Michael Black wrote:
< big ole snipperoo >
>>
> Ah, but Rhysling was named after Woodrow Wilson.
I would appreciate a citation ("chapter and verse," if you please) from
a RAH work
in support of this contention. I suggest you've mis-spoken.
My wetware retrieves only "Noisy" as a "first name
" for The Blind Bard (or "Singer") of the Spaceways
BTW, when I first read about Noisy, in my head, I sounded his last name as
"Rise-ling" (a type of white wine) and it was only later that I
switched to
the Welsh-sounding "Reese-ling."
FWIW, "Rhys" in Welsh means *enthusiasm* or *strength of feeling.* This
may make
a nice comment on the public's highly emotional reaction to Noisy's works
> Woody Guthrie's fully name was Woodrow Wilson Guthrie, so named somewhat
> before Wilson became president.
Guthrie was born on Le Quatorze Juillet (14 July) of 1912. Surely his
parents
could have/would have been aware that Wilson was running for US
President by then.
They needn't have waited until Wilson was actually elected in November,
1912 to
name their son after him. Do you think?
Pax,
Rufe.
Michael Black
>
>
> Michael Black wrote:
>
> < big ole snipperoo >
>>>
>> Ah, but Rhysling was named after Woodrow Wilson.
>
> I would appreciate a citation ("chapter and verse," if you please)
> from a RAH work
> in support of this contention. I suggest you've mis-spoken.
> My wetware retrieves only "Noisy" as a "first name
> " for The Blind Bard (or "Singer") of the Spaceways
>
Sorry. I've always read Rhysling as being a stand in for Woody Guthrie.
Woody would have made waves by the time of the story, and an itinerant
folk musician in space just sounds too much like an itinerant folk music
on earth.
So what I meant was that if Rhysling was based on Woody, then in effect
he is based on a real person who was named after Woodrow Wilson.
> BTW, when I first read about Noisy, in my head, I sounded his last name as
> "Rise-ling" (a type of white wine) and it was only later that I switched to
> the Welsh-sounding "Reese-ling."
> FWIW, "Rhys" in Welsh means *enthusiasm* or *strength of feeling.* This may
> make
> a nice comment on the public's highly emotional reaction to Noisy's works
>
>> Woody Guthrie's fully name was Woodrow Wilson Guthrie, so named somewhat
>> before Wilson became president.
>
> Guthrie was born on Le Quatorze Juillet (14 July) of 1912. Surely his
> parents
> could have/would have been aware that Wilson was running for US President by
> then.
> They needn't have waited until Wilson was actually elected in November, 1912
> to
> name their son after him. Do you think?
>
But that's the point. They named him in anticipation of Woodrow Wilson
being elected president. But since Wilson wasn't yet president, it's not
quite the same thing as naming Woody after Wilson because he was
president. I suspect after the fact other people named their children
after the president, not unlike other people naming their children after
the US president at the time. But Woody's parents saw something in Wilson
that made them name their child after him before he became president (and
anything that he did as president).
Michael
MajorOz
...kinda like the little blond kid down the way, born October 2000,
named Albert Gore McClintock.
[ poor little shit ... gets his ass kicked regularly at school ]
Sorry............couldn't resist.
cheers
oz, leaving for the Great White North (Iowa) in the morning to spend
Thanksgiving with some of the few (grandkids) who still love me,
unreservedly.
May each of you bask in the glow of loved ones this holiday.
Dr. Rufo
Michael Black wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009, Dr. Rufo wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Michael Black wrote:
>>
>> < big ole snipperoo >
>>>>
>>> Ah, but Rhysling was named after Woodrow Wilson.
>>
>> I would appreciate a citation ("chapter and verse," if you please)
>> from a RAH work
>> in support of this contention. I suggest you've mis-spoken.
>> My wetware retrieves only "Noisy" as a "first name
>> " for The Blind Bard (or "Singer") of the Spaceways
>>
> Sorry. I've always read Rhysling as being a stand in for Woody Guthrie.
Okay, Cousin, I understand your argument describing why you think RAH's
"Noisy Rysling"
character is based on Woody Guthrie.
It's not that great a stretch of the imagination and the serial numbers
are still
quite visible on the stomach steinway that stands in for Guthrie's guitar.
But, my dear sir, you typed above:
"Rhysling was *named after* Woodrow Wilson."
Whatever else he may be, we cannot determine whether he was in fact
named after Woodrow Wilson
because the only other name used in connection with him is "Noisy."
No other given name is used in the Heinlein canon
Therefore:
1. Woodrow Wilson Guthrie was named after Woodrow Wilson.
(Do you see where their names look alike?)
2. Lazarus Long (ne Woodrow Wilson Smith at birth) was named after
Woodrow Wilson.
(THEIR names also look alike.)
3. "Noisy Rhysling" is NOT named after Woodrow Wilson.
(THEIR names do NOT look alike.)
QED: Bhysling was NOT named after Woodrow Wilson.
Rufe
Bill Patterson
> In article
> <ca493a7a-b9ba-44ce-9f4d-c95a467db...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
> � � �Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agree re Woodrow Wilson -- as Wilson's legacy and reputation changed
over the years, choosing that name might have become embarrassing for
RAH (though I don't really see any evidence). Wilson's modern legacy
centers, as you say,around an appalling racism. Wilson all by himself
set race relations in this country back decades.
But for the early part of the last century, Wilson's legacy was as a
fighter for the progressive League of Nations, definer of human
rights. H.G. Wells has several bits of journalistic commentary about
Wilson -- how inspired all of liberal Europe was -- and then how
dashed.
David M. Silver
Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> >Even Theodore
> >Roosevelt was infected with that disease of the mind (the Brownsville
> >shame for example); and, also, I'll refrain from commenting on the
> >likelihood of there being more than a few men named Dick or Rick or Rich
> >or Richard in their early forties running around who do not publicize
> >what the middle initial of "N" stands for on their birth certificate.
>
> I'll have to miss this cultural reference.
I enjoyed your note about "little brothers" in the Soviet Union.
On one possible cultural reference, if they were born a little over
forty years ago in the United States the President who had just been
elected in 1968 was Richard Milhouse Nixon, the only one to resign in
face of a Bill of Impeachment.
If the cultural reference you've missed is the "Brownsville shame," an
account of it may be found here:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_browns.html
Mike Stone
"Bill Patterson" <whpat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca493a7a-b9ba-44ce...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>But Woodrow Wilson Smith is harder to understand in quite the same
>way.
I thought it was simply a plot device for Lazarus to give away
(inadvertantly) that he was the oldest person present.
"Theodore Roosevelt" would have served equally well, but Istr that Heinlein
was still a Democrat when he wrote MC, so it was probably a toss-up between
Woodrow Wilson and William Jennings Bryan.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of
Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work
strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby in the
reservoir, he turns to the cupboard only to find the vodka bottle empty".
P G Wodehouse - Jill the Reckless
Mike Dworetsky
> "Bill Patterson" <whpat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ca493a7a-b9ba-44ce...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> But Woodrow Wilson Smith is harder to understand in quite the same
>> way.
>
>
> I thought it was simply a plot device for Lazarus to give away
> (inadvertantly) that he was the oldest person present.
>
> "Theodore Roosevelt" would have served equally well, but Istr that
> Heinlein was still a Democrat when he wrote MC, so it was probably a
> toss-up between Woodrow Wilson and William Jennings Bryan.
After Jennings' performance as creationist-in-chief in the Scopes trial,
Heinlein's attitudes towards religious dogmatism would have ruled that out.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Chris Zakes
caused "Mike Stone" <mws...@aol.com> to write:
>
>
>"Bill Patterson" <whpat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ca493a7a-b9ba-44ce...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>But Woodrow Wilson Smith is harder to understand in quite the same
>>way.
>
>
>I thought it was simply a plot device for Lazarus to give away
>(inadvertantly) that he was the oldest person present.
>
>"Theodore Roosevelt" would have served equally well, but Istr that Heinlein
>was still a Democrat when he wrote MC, so it was probably a toss-up between
>Woodrow Wilson and William Jennings Bryan.
<chuckle> My first Drivers Ed teacher in high school was named William
Jennings Bryan Millsap. He was about as old as Santa Claus and had
been dealing with cars and driving since the days of the Model T. Boy
did he have a lot of stories to tell!
-Chris Zakes
Texas
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
-Issac Asimov
Michael Stemper
>BTW, when I first read about Noisy, in my head, I sounded his last name as
> "Rise-ling" (a type of white wine) and it was only later that I
>switched to
>the Welsh-sounding "Reese-ling."
Which is exactly how the German "Riesling" is pronounced.
--
Michael F. Stemper
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