Snape & Krum Resemblance: Significant? How?
nys...@cs.com
Less-than sunny disposition. As teens: Round shoulders,
skinny/scrawny/thin.
Snape (as teen): Walks like a spider
Krum: Walks in a slouched/hunched manner on feet splayed like a duck.
Krum & Snape's Mom: Skinny/Thin, Unattractive, Thick Eyebrows
Krum, Snape & both Their Fathers: Black hair, Hooked Nose.
nys...@cs.com
Krum is Snape's younger brother -- 18 years younger. Snape, in
defecting to DD's side, accepted DD's offer to hide Snape's family from
Voldemort (a similar offer to the one DD made to Malfoy), the result
being that Snape's family is believed dead, but is in fact living in
Bulgaria under the name "Krum".
Here, again, is the physical evidence of kinship:
Both Krum & Snape: Sallow Skin, Hooked Nose, Black Eyes, Black Hair,
Surly disposition. As teens: Round shoulders, skinny/scrawny/thin.
Krum: Walks in a slouched/hunched manner on feet splayed like a duck.
Snape (as teen): Walks like a spider (quite possible meaning he walks
with feet/legs splayed outwards and with body held low - what else
could it mean?)
path.sonofman
Puhleese, do tell Us what difference that would make
for the storyline or just can it!
nys...@cs.com
Thank you for your insightful input.
I do not know what difference it might make, because I do not know how
the story ends.
David Sueme
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> Both Krum & Snape: Sallow Skin, Hooked Nose, Dark Eyes, Black Hair,
> Less-than sunny disposition. As teens: Round shoulders,
If you don't by now recognise that JKR largely deals in
stereotypes/archetypes, then I just don't know what to tell you.
It's kinda like old westerns... bad guys wear black. Krum may not be
quite the confirmed creep Karkaroff was, but still there is something
vaugely krummy about him.
Dave
nys...@cs.com
> If you don't by now recognise that JKR largely deals in
> stereotypes/archetypes, then I just don't know what to tell you.
I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds, at least by
implication, in this context, that you think Rowling is a racist. I
agree that she plays with stereotypes and archtypes, but hardly in the
simplistic and offensive manner you suggest. Nor did I realize there
were any stereotypes associated with having round shoulders or thick
eyebrows.
> It's kinda like old westerns... bad guys wear black.
Snape was not a "bad guy", except in the "red herring" sense that
shallow, foolish, Harry Potter thought he "seemed the type," at least
before Book 6.
Krum was never a bad guy. He was a romantic interest for the main
female character. IOW, he is completely against type. Assuming my
theory of of some sort of kinship is incorrect, this may be an
alternative explanation why she gave him the features that she did?
> Krum may not be
> quite the confirmed creep Karkaroff was, but still there is
> something vaguely krummy about him.
Like what? His foreign accent? His skin color? His dark hair and
eyes? His Eastern European background? I'm not sure I like where you
are going here.
nys...@cs.com
> Well, if you consider the whole world, I think it's not so hard to
> find someone who resembles you or your mother or your father. There
> are 5 or 6 billions of people...
True, but there are not 5 or 6 billion people actually created and
described in detail in the Potterverse. This is a fairly long list of
common traits for two unrelated characters to have in common.
> But, on the other hand, it's a very interesting theory, that could
> explain really well why Dumbledore trusts Snape, no matter what.
> And it could explain why he gets so upset when called a coward: he
> sacrificed the life with his brother to protect him from LV and
> DEs. But I'd say that the school where Viktor studied is too much
> near to dark arts, and a formed DE used to work there...
The child of a relocated wizard family must probably go to school
somewhere. I'm sure there are former death eaters connected with
Beaubatons as well. No former death eater is likely to recognize a
child that was 3 years old when Voldemort fell. As far as we know,
Karkaroff does not know Snape's family.
> By the way, it's a theory noone ever wrote about it...
Well, not on this NG, it seems. After I posted, I googled, and found
recent discussions on fansites speculating that Krum was Snape's son,
so I'm not the first to guess some form of kinship.
> and don't think
> JK has ever talked about Snape family ties: maybe cos they are very
> important, maybe cos they are irrilevant...
She was once asked in an interview if Luna was Snape's daughter. She
said that Snape does not have a daughter.
A.G.McDowell
nys...@cs.com writes
Third Task" - where it also says that Krum talks to his parents in rapid
Bulgarian. Slow Bulgarian, or surprisingly fluent English, would have
been more encouraging for your theory. Snape's memories show bouts of
shouting between the parents: I would have expected Tobias Snape to have
returned to the Muggle world, and not to be turning up at Hogwarts,
apparently on good terms with Eileen Prince - very good terms given the
existence of Krum. I will say that you have made me very curious as to
the health and allegiance of Eileen Prince, though. Snape's early
knowledge of dark magic suggests that he grew up in the wizarding world
- I would guess that she retained custody after a split with Tobias (in
fact, given that she was a witch and Tobias was a Muggle I imagine she
retained anything she cared to).
--
A.G.McDowell
Benjamin Esham
> nys...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > Hmm. No-one wants to venture a Theory, so I will offer one of my own.
> >
> > Krum is Snape's younger brother -- 18 years younger. Snape, in
> > defecting to DD's side, accepted DD's offer to hide Snape's family from
> > Voldemort (a similar offer to the one DD made to Malfoy), the result
> > being that Snape's family is believed dead, but is in fact living in
> > Bulgaria under the name "Krum".
>
> I presume you have found the description of Krum's parents in GOF: "The
> Third Task" - where it also says that Krum talks to his parents in rapid
> Bulgarian. Slow Bulgarian, or surprisingly fluent English, would have been
> more encouraging for your theory.
IIUC, Krum and his family would have been living in Bulgaria for about
thirteen years before we see them in this part of GoF. Thirteen years
certainly seems like enough time to learn a language extremely fluently,
especially in such a total-immersion setting.
--
Benjamin D. Esham
bde...@gmail.com | http://bdesham.net | AIM: bdesham128
"...when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal
intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway
between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
— Richard Dawkins
nys...@cs.com
> I presume you have found the description of Krum's parents in GOF: "The
> Third Task" - where it also says that Krum talks to his parents in rapid
> Bulgarian. Slow Bulgarian, or surprisingly fluent English, would have
> been more encouraging for your theory.
Perhaps. But as far as Viktor is concerned, there is certainly no
surprise. He would have been an infant when they moved to Bulgaria,
assuming he was even born. As for Tobias Snape, we do not know his
original background. "Tobias," a biblical name, is a perfectly
plausible name for someone with some East European background. In any
event, 13-15 years is long enough to become immersed in a foreign
language.
> Snape's memories show bouts of shouting between the parents:
Right. This assumes the hook-nosed man is his father, and the cowering
woman his mother, which is a reasonable assumption, but still
uncertain. The hook-nosed man could be Snape's grandfather.
> I would have expected Tobias Snape to have
> returned to the Muggle world, and not to be turning up at Hogwarts,
> apparently on good terms with Eileen Prince - very good terms given the
> existence of Krum.
I'm not sure why you would expect that. All we know about Tobias Snape
and Eileen Prince is that they were married, stayed together long
enough to have a son, and apparently remained at least for a several
years. They *could* have split up thereafter, but a lack of an ideal
home life hardly makes that inevitable.
Since Krum (apparently) has Tobias' nose and Eileen's eyebrows, this
suggests that they stayed together for over 18 years - long enough to
bear another child. They need not have remained together thereafter,
however. Eileen Prince could have died, and the woman at the match
could be Krum's (Bulgarian) stepmother. Perhaps that is making things
too complicated, though. It is best to keep one's speculative theories
neat and simple.
> I will say that you have made me very curious as to
> the health and allegiance of Eileen Prince, though. Snape's early
> knowledge of dark magic suggests that he grew up in the wizarding world
Indeed. I'm not sure Eileen Prince sounds like she was a gifted
wizard, though. "Captain of the Gobstones Team" sounds like a very
unimpressive sort of "honor" (Hermione obviously never found her name
searching through potions awards).
But can we be sure that Tobias has no magical powers? JKR has promised
us that the final book will feature an example of a person who "in
desperate circumstances" manages to perform magic late in life (after
age 11). Is this Filch, Petunia, Mrs. Figg, Dudley? There are not too
many options. Perhaps it was just an idea she once had that has
already been dropped.
> - I would guess that she retained custody after a split with Tobias (in
> fact, given that she was a witch and Tobias was a Muggle I imagine she
> retained anything she cared to).
I'm not entirely sure why you think they split at all.
Ken
> David Sueme wrote:
>> If you don't by now recognise that JKR largely deals in
>> stereotypes/archetypes, then I just don't know what to tell you.
>
> I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds, at least by
> implication, in this context, that you think Rowling is a racist.
I agree with David that JKR largely deals in traditional
stereotypes/archetypes but I don't think JKR or David are being racist. But
if you think that crooked noses, large glasses and toad like are racist...
hum I have red hair... I wonder what JKR thinks of me :)
Ken
nys...@cs.com
> I agree with David that JKR largely deals in traditional
> stereotypes/archetypes
I also agreed with that part. Of course, she deliberately plays
against them as much (or more) than she plays to them. For instance,
she has said she made a deliberate decision to give Harry glasses, even
though he was *not* a nerdy scholarly type, and sports were his main
forte, because she wanted to play against stereotypes. In the first
book, the "stereotyped" portrayal of Snape was a red herring -- the
moral being that the stereotype cannot be trusted.
> but I don't think JKR or David are being racist.
I don't think that either. But then again, neither do I think that JKR
gave Krum a hooked nose, black hair & eyes, and sallow skin to
represent the fact that he is Evil. Even if not racist, that would
certainly be shallow. It is not a good thing for JKR to encourage her
young audience to judge people on the basis of appearances -- and I
don't think she does that. I believe that even if Rowling were to do
that once with Snape (assuming Snape is Evil), she would not do it
twice.
David's explanation for the physical resemblance between Krum and Snape
is that she is playing to stereotype. This goes too far, especially
since he offers no evidence, apart from appearance, that there is
"krummy" about Krum -- who seems like a perfectly decent guy. Seems
more likely she is deliberately playing against stereotype, and having
fun turning a Snape's physical type into a romantic interest. It is
possible that is the only explanation for the resemblance.
> But if you think that crooked noses, large glasses and toad like are
> racist...
How have I implied such a thing?
What might be, if not racist, at least shallow, would be if someone
were to cite a characters physical characteristics as proof that there
is "something krummy about him."
> hum I have red hair... I wonder what JKR thinks of me :)
Why would I assume she thinks anything? I am not the one operating on
the assumption that JKR always uses physical characteristics to
represent the personality. I was the one who suggested there might be
some other kind of story significance.
David Sueme
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds, at least by
> implication, in this context, that you think Rowling is a racist. I
> agree that she plays with stereotypes and archtypes, but hardly in the
> simplistic and offensive manner you suggest.
Time for you to belly up to the bar. How many words do you think you
have to eliminate from the first five books to convert the Potterverse
into an entirely Caucasian, British Isles centric world? Except for
the Arab referee of the Quiddich World Cup, if you eliminate 50 - 75
words from the first 2000 pages of the five books, "...Bobby, a "black"
Slytheren..." you are looking at the "Key to Time" season of Dr. Who.
Easily my favorite season, BTW.
Dave
David Sueme
Ken wrote:
> I agree with David that JKR largely deals in traditional
> stereotypes/archetypes but I don't think JKR or David are being racist.
There came a day when it became obvious that I could recognise that
there are indeed significant differences between the human
sub-species... or I could be a fool.
Dave
nys...@cs.com
> Time for you to belly up to the bar. How many words do you think
> you have to eliminate from the first five books to convert the
> Potterverse into an entirely Caucasian, British Isles centric
> world? Except for the Arab referee of the Quiddich World Cup, if
> you eliminate 50 - 75 words from the first 2000 pages of the five
> books, "...Bobby, a "black" Slytheren..." you are looking at
> the "Key to Time" season of Dr. Who.
You seem to have misunderstood the nature of our disagreement. The
above is a complete non-sequitur.
I disagree with your assumption that there must be something krummy
about Krum because he is portrayed as having sallow skin, dark eyes,
and a hooked nose. I believe you are attributing onto the author a
shallowness and lack of imaginagion that is by no means justified.
This has nothing to do with exaggerated, and shallow, political
correctness. As far as I am concerned, JKR has no obligation to go out
of her way to make her cast of characters the United Nations. Nor do I
have any objection to villains with hook noses. Villains with hook
noses exist in real life, and I see no reason why they should not exist
in fiction. I have no objection to an occasional character seeming to
fit certain so-called "stereotypes."
I object to your assumption that Krum must be Evil because of his
physical traits, and that must be why JKR gave him these traits. I see
no reason to suppose that JKR thinks that way.
David Sueme
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> This has nothing to do with exaggerated, and shallow, political
> correctness.
Phooey. Your liberal bias is so obvious that I put a condom on each of
my fingers before typing my replies. Spelling errors on my part are
thus explained and excused!
As far as I am concerned, JKR has no obligation to go out
> of her way to make her cast of characters the United Nations.
>
> I object to your assumption that Krum must be Evil because of his
> physical traits, and that must be why JKR gave him these traits. I see
> no reason to suppose that JKR thinks that way.
Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton. Haven't you
noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd food), the
Germanic peoples (Sturm und Drang [Lightening and thunder]) are
seriously ickey, and the whole rest of the world is pretty much absent
except for the occasional banned flying carpet!
JKR was writing about the world she knew and loved as a teenager - a
world full of clear-eyed redheads. Commercial pressure forced her to
pretend that her idealized world includes immigrants from Nigeria. But
in reality, she doesn't care about them. Like I said, if you erase
some 25 to 50 words in the 2000 page Potterverse, it is reduced to
London, Scotland, rural France, and a fifty acre campus probably in
Danemark.
Go ahead and object to my "evil" point of view all you want. Try to be
realistic while you are doing your objecting.
Dave
karn...@cs.com
> nys...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > I object to your assumption that Krum must be Evil because of his
> > physical traits, and that must be why JKR gave him these
> > traits. I see no reason to suppose that JKR thinks that way.
>
> Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton.
Krum's values always seemed fine to me. He appeared a decent young man
who avoided giggling groupies and preferred clever and self-sufficient
Miss Granger. He treated Hermione well (unlike Ron), and seemed to be
a very good sport. And he disliked his headmaster, Karkaroff, despite
the fact that Karkaroff fawned all over him, which showed
self-sufficiency, immunity to flattery, and good judgement of
character.
I had not considered his Germanic origins. Clearly there has to be
something fishy about him that I never noticed. Unless . . . the OP is
correct, and he IS a Briton. Exiled among Bulgarians, but retaining
his British purity of heart despite their Germanic influence.
That would be a relief to me. Next to the late Cedric (a true Briton),
he's easily the least obnoxious young man in the series.
>Haven't you
> noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd food),
I've also noticed that Hermione Granger LIKES their wierd food. And
she spent a summer in France once. AND she dated Krum.
It's a clue. She is going over to the Dark Side. Remember how
strangely Percy started behaving in OotP. That was two years after he
went to EGYPT. A similar foreign corruption has taken hold of
Hermione, and is growing slowly but surely. That is why she dated
Krum, but she ditched him when she realized that his Bulgarian exterior
concealed a true Briton's soul.
If she carries her love of the French so far as to start dating Draco
MALFOY, then we will be sure.
> the
> Germanic peoples (Sturm und Drang [Lightening and thunder]) are
> seriously ickey,
Well, Karkaroff is pretty lame as bad guys go. And as I said, I like
Krum. But there is definitely something suspicious about that
Poliakoff.
Helena Bowles
"David Sueme" <dsu...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1125906656....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Oh, Dave, don't tempt us...;-)
HELENA
nys...@cs.com
> There came a day when it became obvious that I could recognise that
> there are indeed significant differences between the human
> sub-species... or I could be a fool.
There are indeed significant differences between human beings. I just
don't see how you think this realistically relates to the notion that
Viktor Krum must be evil because he has a hooked nose.
nys...@cs.com
> > I object to your assumption that Krum must be Evil because of his
> > physical traits, and that must be why JKR gave him these traits. I see
> > no reason to suppose that JKR thinks that way.
>
> Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton.
What "questionable values" are you referring to? Do you have some
evidence, from the book, that Krum has questionable values? Or are you
simply assuming he has questionable values because he is not a Briton?
Or because he has a hooked nose? If such "evidence" proves that
Rowling thinks as you suggest, your argument seems awfully circular.
> Haven't you
> noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd food),
No. I did not notice. I did notice that Ron is a bit reluctant to try
foreign food, whereas Hermione is quite eager to partake.
I suppose it is a bit of a shame that Ron has "pre-judged" a plate of
French food, and refuses to give it a chance to prove itself worthy of
his stomach. But surely it must have occurred to you that the moral
duties we owe to our fellow human beings might be a little greater than
those we owe to a plate of food.
> [...] the
> Germanic peoples (Sturm und Drang [Lightening and thunder]) are
> seriously ickey,
Wow! That's sure convincing! To my knowledge, JKR has created only
one "Germanic" wizard -- that being Bruno Schimdt, the resourceful
wizard child who kills an Erkling with his father's collapsible
cauldron (from "Fantastic Beasts"). Karkaroff, of course, is Slavic,
not Germanic.
So your evidence that JKR considers Germans "seriously icky" is derived
from her use of a made-up word "Durmstrang" to describe a school with a
bad reputation, just because it is arguably a spoonerism derived from
the German phrase "sturm und drang" ("storm and stress") which refers
to a phase of German literature which was a prelude to the Romantic
period. "The movement was distinguished also by the intensity with
which it developed the theme of youthful genius in rebellion against
accepted standards, by its enthusiasm for nature, and by its rejection
of the rules of 18th-century neoclassical style."
> and the whole rest of the world is pretty much absent
> except for the occasional banned flying carpet!
The story does take place in Britain. How this proves that Rowling is
a xenophobe, is beyond me.
> JKR was writing about the world she knew and loved as a teenager - a
> world full of clear-eyed redheads.
Is that what her world was like? I never knew! I assume, of course,
that Rowling tends to write about what she knows, and might hesitate to
write about cultures she is unfamiliar with. But it hardly follows
that she hates Africans, Asians and Indians and wish they would all go
back to their ancestral continents.
> Commercial pressure forced her to
> pretend that her idealized world includes immigrants from Nigeria. But
> in reality, she doesn't care about them. Like I said, if you erase
> some 25 to 50 words in the 2000 page Potterverse, it is reduced to
> London, Scotland, rural France, and a fifty acre campus probably in
> Danemark.
Rowling's stories deal very deeply with the themes of tolerance and
intolerance. It seems to me fairly clear that she is on the side of
tolerance. Its not that she thinks that "everyone is the same", but
rather that she believes we owe eachother certain moral obligations in
spite of whatever differences.
If I were to hazard a guess, I would guess she prefers to explore these
themes through fictional races (wizards, half-bloods, muggles,
half-giants, etc.), and sees no reason to complicate things by
including real-world ethnic differences among the main cast of
characters.
Nonetheless, there are, as you acknowledge, plenty of real-world
"ethnics" among the minor characters, (where their ethnicity is treated
as entirely irrelevant to the wizarding community, even in a dating
context). I am amused by your assumption that JKR is a xenophobe who
had to be forced by her editor at gunpoint to include these characters
in her story. What is your evidence for this? Their are plenty of
ethnics in real-world Britain -- why should they *not* be represented
at Hogwarts?
> Go ahead and object to my "evil" point of view all you want. Try to be
> realistic while you are doing your objecting.
First, I never used the word "evil"; I believe I did use the word
"shallow". Second, I thought we were discussing the views that you
claim JKR holds, not your views.
karn...@cs.com
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> David Sueme wrote:
> > > I object to your assumption that Krum must be Evil because
> > > of his physical traits, and that must be why JKR gave him
> > > these traits. I see
> > > no reason to suppose that JKR thinks that way.
> >
> > Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton.
>
> What "questionable values" are you referring to?
He talks funny.
<snip>
> > Haven't you
> > noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd food),
>
> No. I did not notice. I did notice that Ron is a bit reluctant
> to try foreign food, whereas Hermione is quite eager to partake.
She's evil. It's a CLUE!
<snip>
> > [...] the
> > Germanic peoples (Sturm und Drang [Lightening and thunder]) are
> > seriously ickey,
>
> Wow! That's sure convincing! To my knowledge, JKR has created
> only one "Germanic" wizard -- that being Bruno Schimdt, the
> resourceful wizard child who kills an Erkling with his father's
> collapsible cauldron (from "Fantastic Beasts"). Karkaroff, of
> course, is Slavic, not Germanic.
Germanic/Slavic. Aryan/Bulg-aryan. Who cares about these petty
distinctions? HITLER -- that's who!
The point, Mr. Smart Guy, is that they are NOT BRITISH.
> So your evidence that JKR considers Germans "seriously icky" is
> derived from her use of a made-up word "Durmstrang" to describe a
> school with a bad reputation, just because it is arguably a
> spoonerism derived from the German phrase "sturm und drang"
> ("storm and stress")
Wrong again. The German for "storm and stress" is "Donner und
Blitzen". Like the REINDEER.
>which refers to a phase of German literature
> which was a prelude to the Romantic period. "The movement was
> distinguished also by the intensity with which it developed the
> theme of youthful genius in rebellion against accepted standards,
> by its enthusiasm for nature, and by its rejection
> of the rules of 18th-century neoclassical style."
Oooh! That's pretty cool.
I mean . . . No it isn't. Everyone KNOWS that the Neoclassicists were
good, and the Romantics were evil. Especially the German Romantics.
Read THE SORROWS OF YOUNG WERTHER if you don't believe me. The sadist
who assigned it to me in high school is now serving twenty-two
consecutive life sentences in Azkaban. Half my classmates will never
again leave St. Mungo's Insane Ward thanks to that bastard.
> > and the whole rest of the world is pretty much absent
> > except for the occasional banned flying carpet!
> The story does take place in Britain. How this proves that
> Rowling is a xenophobe, is beyond me.
Well, if you cannot see it for yourself, I can't explain it to you.
<snip>
> > Commercial pressure forced her to
> > pretend that her idealized world includes immigrants from
> > Nigeria. But in reality, she doesn't care about them. Like I
> > said, if you erase some 25 to 50 words in the 2000 page
> > Potterverse, it is reduced to London, Scotland, rural France,
> > and a fifty acre campus probably in Danemark.
>
> Rowling's stories deal very deeply with the themes of tolerance and
> intolerance. It seems to me fairly clear that she is on the side
> of tolerance. Its not that she thinks that "everyone is the
> same", but rather that she believes we owe eachother certain moral
> obligations in spite of whatever differences.
You know, if I was a stinking liberal like yourself, I might get all
choked up by such a sentiment. As it is, I'll have to start wearing
condoms on my fingers when I read the books.
Oh, and "each other" is TWO words, buddy!!!
David Sueme
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> > Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton.
>
> What "questionable values" are you referring to?
Cowardice.
>
> > Haven't you
> > noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd food),
>
> No. I did not notice. I did notice that Ron is a bit reluctant to try
> foreign food, whereas Hermione is quite eager to partake.
Look. We all like Hermy but let's be honest - she's a bit of a
liberal. She tries to trick house elves into being "liberated" even if
they aren't interested. She thinks she knows Winkey's interest better
that Winkey does.
Hermione is a Hillary Clinton or Dianne Feinstien - an enemy of all
that is good and noble in the femminine contribution to civil society.
Her association with Molly Weasly may yet redeem her.
> So your evidence that JKR considers Germans "seriously icky" is derived
> from her use of a made-up word "Durmstrang" to describe a school with a
> bad reputation, just because it is arguably a spoonerism derived from
> the German phrase "sturm und drang" ("storm and stress") which refers
> to a phase of German literature
Lots of people - even Deutchphiles like myself - have had to reconsider
Herr Wagner's contribution to the arts. Leichmotiv - good idea. Strum
und Drang - not so good.
Also, your understanding of "drang" is deficient. There is a class of
words in Indo-European languages where the sound of the word mimics the
sound of the action it describes. "Slap" is an example, arguably
"vomit" is also. "Cough" is an excellent example. At 3:30 AM I am
forgetting the word for this type of word.
"Drang" is a German example of this kind of word. It originally
mimicked the sound of a bolt of chain lightening striking close to the
observer. "Sturm und Drang" is most literally "Storm and Lightening"
and had nothing whatsoever to do with the World Pain.
Dave
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> Nystulc wrote:
>> "Durmstrang is arguably a spoonerism derived from the German phrase
>> "sturm und drang" ("storm and stress")
> Wrong again. The German for "storm and stress" is "Donner und
> Blitzen".
No, you're wrong. "Donner und Blitzen" means thunder and lightning.
"Sturm und Drang" (as a phrase) means storm and stress.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
karn...@cs.com
David Sueme wrote:
> nys...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > > Krum's values are questionable because he is not a Briton.
> >
> > What "questionable values" are you referring to?
>
> Cowardice.
I reluctantly agree. Most people are afraid to say "Voldemort", but
Krum is such a coward he can't even say "Hermione" properly.
> > > Haven't you
> > > noticed - the French (Beauxbatons) are a bit ickey (wierd
> > > food),
> >
> > No. I did not notice. I did notice that Ron is a bit reluctant
> > to try foreign food, whereas Hermione is quite eager to partake.
>
> Look. We all like Hermy but let's be honest - she's a bit of a
> liberal. She tries to trick house elves into being "liberated"
> even if they aren't interested. She thinks she knows Winkey's
> interest better that Winkey does.
>
> Hermione is a Hillary Clinton or Dianne Feinstien - an enemy of all
> that is good and noble in the femminine contribution to civil
> society.
EXACTLY. If God had meant for women to care about the weak and
helpless, he would never have entrusted them with screwing up the next
generation.
> Her association with Molly Weasly may yet redeem her.
No, no, no. Molly's husband AGREES with Hermione, so Molly probably
does too. Hermione's role model should be Winky herself.
Besides, Molly makes MEATBALLS. That's ITALIAN food. Or Swedish.
Either way, I don't think I would want MY children to associate with
her.
> > So your evidence that JKR considers Germans "seriously icky" is
> > derived from her use of a made-up word "Durmstrang" to describe
> > a school with a bad reputation, just because it is arguably a
> > spoonerism derived from the German phrase "sturm und drang"
> > ("storm and stress") which refers to a phase of German literature
>
> Lots of people - even Deutchphiles like myself - have had to
> reconsider Herr Wagner's contribution to the arts. Leichmotiv -
> good idea. Strum und Drang - not so good.
And if the fact that lots of people are reconsidering the worth of
Richard Wagner's contribution to the arts doesn't convince him that
Bulgarians are morally suspect, then I don't know what will.
> Also, your understanding of "drang" is deficient.
Now, now. That's a bit harsh, don't you think?
nys...@cs.com
> Karnak 17 wrote:
> > Nystulc wrote:
>
> >> "Durmstrang is arguably a spoonerism derived from the German phrase
> >> "sturm und drang" ("storm and stress")
>
> > Wrong again. The German for "storm and stress" is "Donner und
> > Blitzen".
>
> No, you're wrong. "Donner und Blitzen" means thunder and lightning.
> "Sturm und Drang" (as a phrase) means storm and stress.
I think your humor/sarcasm detector needs some fine-tuning.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Karnak 17 wrote:
>> Nystulc wrote:
>>
>>> "Durmstrang is arguably a spoonerism derived from the German
>>> phrase "sturm und drang" ("storm and stress")
>
>> Wrong again. The German for "storm and stress" is "Donner und
>> Blitzen".
>
> No, you're wrong. "Donner und Blitzen" means thunder and lightning.
"Donder".
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/donner.asp
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
Right now you are reading my .sig quote.
David Sueme
karn...@cs.com wrote:
> EXACTLY. If God had meant for women to care about the weak and
> helpless, he would never have entrusted them with screwing up the next
> generation.
"God" (actually biology) entrusted women with a very important
intellectual task in regards the next generation. Counting them - cubs
that snuck out of the cave ended in a wolves' belly. Those genes were
lost.
> Besides, Molly makes MEATBALLS. That's ITALIAN food.
> Either way, I don't think I would want MY children to associate with
> her.
Evolution doesn't select against fat, slow children in sluggish,
southern climates.
> > Also, your understanding of "drang" is deficient.
[I argue that "drang" represents the sound of a lightning strike]
>
> Now, now. That's a bit harsh, don't you think?
It is harsh. That is why I said it.
Dave
karn...@cs.com
David Sueme wrote:
> karn...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > EXACTLY. If God had meant for women to care about the weak and
> > helpless, he would never have entrusted them with screwing up
> > the next generation.
>
> "God" (actually biology) entrusted women with a very important
> intellectual task in regards the next generation. Counting them -
> cubs that snuck out of the cave ended in a wolves' belly. Those
> genes were lost.
That would EXPLAIN why Hogwarts has to use PORTRAIT-Women for this
task, rather than real ones.
Well, maybe if Hermione studies Arithmancy REALLY HARD, she will learn
to count to twelve. Then she will be able to keep track of hers and
Harry's children after he becomes Minister of Magic. If not, she will
have to marry Ron. (I think Molly can only count to six.)
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Eek; if twas thus, I fell for it.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> David Sueme wrote:
>>> EXACTLY. If God had meant for women to care about the weak and
>>> helpless, he would never have entrusted them with screwing up
>>> the next generation.
>> "God" (actually biology) entrusted women with a very important
>> intellectual task in regards the next generation. Counting them -
>> cubs that snuck out of the cave ended in a wolves' belly. Those
>> genes were lost.
> That would EXPLAIN why Hogwarts has to use PORTRAIT-Women for this
> task, rather than real ones.
> Well, maybe if Hermione studies Arithmancy REALLY HARD, she will learn
> to count to twelve. Then she will be able to keep track of hers and
> Harry's children after he becomes Minister of Magic.
Why can't he do the counting while she becomes Minister for Magic?
karn...@cs.com
Because SHE never got on Professor Trelawney's good side, is why.
Besides, your idea is only good on the surface. True, Harry can count
at least to fourteen, otherwise he couldn't play Quiddich, so he would
be up to performing the all-important intellectual task of counting his
young. And Hermione would make Gilderoy Lockhart a prominent member of
her staff, and grant him yet another Order of Merlin, which would do
something towards rectifying the terrible injustice of Book 2.
But you are forgetting that judging from her youthful attitudes,
Hermione would probably not only promote pro-Muggle legislation, she
would also attempt to free House Elves from bondage, grant civil rights
to werewolves, and allow French Food to be served in the Ministry
cafeteria. In short, as an earlier poster so wisely observed, she is
the ENEMY OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND NOBLE in the feminine contribution to
civil society. I mean, I think that we can all agree that that is not
good.
And let's be practical! There would be all those cute little House
Elves running around campaigning against her, while all SHE'D have on
her side would be goblins, and worse -- CENTAURS! Talk about the kiss
of death!
Further, she would not only eliminate the Dark Wizard support base by
extending rights to werewolves, goblins, and giants, but her track
record suggests that she would oppose the bashing, bullying, and
attempted murdering of the families of Dark Wizards as well. That
wouldn't leave ANY weak or marginalized members of society that a
decent upstanding wizard could abuse for fun and get away with it.
Sorry, but nobody is going to stand for that.
David Sueme
karn...@cs.com wrote:
(I think Molly can only count to six.)
But she really really cares about each. And that is why Molly Weasly
is the best Mom ever anywhere.
Imagine if TR had been born 20 years later and sent to live with the
Weaslys instead. No conflict, no books, what a bore.
Dave
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>> Karnak 17 wrote:
>>> Well, maybe if Hermione studies Arithmancy REALLY HARD, she will
>>> learn to count to twelve. Then she will be able to keep track of
>>> hers and Harry's children after he becomes Minister of Magic.
>> Why can't he do the counting while she becomes Minister for Magic?
> Because SHE never got on Professor Trelawney's good side, is why.
Please explain this joke, it sounds like a good one.
I now understand that this is meant to be funny; but for child-counting
practice, Harry only has to count to thirteen in Quidditch players.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Yay! We've got the Ashes back!
Kish
> Karnak 17 wrote:
>
>>Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>>
>>>Karnak 17 wrote:
>
>
>>>>Well, maybe if Hermione studies Arithmancy REALLY HARD, she will
>>>>learn to count to twelve. Then she will be able to keep track of
>>>>hers and Harry's children after he becomes Minister of Magic.
>
>
>>>Why can't he do the counting while she becomes Minister for Magic?
>
>
>>Because SHE never got on Professor Trelawney's good side, is why.
>
>
> Please explain this joke, it sounds like a good one.
In OotP, Trelawney says that Harry will live to a ripe old age, become
Minister of Magic, and have twelve children.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> Karnak 17 wrote:
>> I think Molly can only count to six.
> But she really really cares about each. And that is why Molly Weasly
> is the best Mom ever anywhere.
I believe that you've missed Karnak's barbed joke here, David.
Molly Weasley has ~seven~ children, one of them is badly left out.
Or maybe I've missed your barbed joke. ^_^
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
karn...@cs.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> David Sueme wrote:
>
> > Karnak 17 wrote:
>
> >> I think Molly can only count to six.
>
> > But she really really cares about each. And that is why Molly
> > Weasly is the best Mom ever anywhere.
>
> I believe that you've missed Karnak's barbed joke here, David.
>
> Molly Weasley has ~seven~ children, one of them is badly left out.
FRED! That's why he is so nasty to Percy, and why he tried to get Ron
to take an Unbreakable Vow. He figures if he gets rid of one sibling,
his mother will be able to tell him apart from George again.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Thanks Kish, and I'm sure that she will love every one of them.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Wouldn't that be Percy's motive to be nasty to Fred?
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
karn...@cs.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> Karnak 17 wrote:
> > Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> >> David Sueme wrote:
> >>> Karnak 17 wrote:
>
> >>>> I think Molly can only count to six.
>
> >>> But she really really cares about each. And that is why Molly
> >>> Weasly is the best Mom ever anywhere.
>
> >> I believe that you've missed Karnak's barbed joke here, David.
>
> >> Molly Weasley has ~seven~ children, one of them is badly left
> >> out.
>
> > FRED! That's why he is so nasty to Percy, and why he tried to
> > get Ron to take an Unbreakable Vow. He figures if he gets rid
> > of one sibling, his mother will be able to tell him apart from
> > George again.
>
> Wouldn't that be Percy's motive to be nasty to Fred?
Why? Molly counts Percy as one of her children whether Fred is around
or not. It is Fred who needs to get rid of an extra sibling in order
to get noticed.
Trouble is, it isn't working. Molly still thinks of Percy as one of
her six children, even though he's been estranged from the family.
Next book, Fred will have to resort to more . . . permanent . . .
measures to get his mother to start counting him. It doesn't look good
for Percy, I'm afraid.
All this sibling rivalry could have been avoided with a little family
planning -- like when Eileen Prince had just Snape and Krum, and spaced
them apart sensibly. (See? This conversation IS on topic.)
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>>> FRED! That's why he is so nasty to Percy, and why he tried to
>>> get Ron to take an Unbreakable Vow. He figures if he gets rid
>>> of one sibling, his mother will be able to tell him apart from
>>> George again.
>> Wouldn't that be Percy's motive to be nasty to Fred?
> Why? Molly counts Percy as one of her children whether Fred is around
> or not. It is Fred who needs to get rid of an extra sibling in order
> to get noticed.
Oh I see, okay.
> Trouble is, it isn't working. Molly still thinks of Percy as one of
> her six children,
Six because Fred is not counted?
> even though he's been estranged from the family. Next book, Fred will
> have to resort to more . . . permanent . . . measures to get his mother
> to start counting him. It doesn't look good for Percy, I'm afraid.
I dunno - after little Edward killed David, his parents changed his name
to Percy to protect him, and abandoned their alphabetic naming scheme.
> All this sibling rivalry could have been avoided with a little family
> planning -- like when Eileen Prince had just Snape and Krum, and spaced
> them apart sensibly. (See? This conversation IS on topic.)
Is that "had" as in "gave birth to", in which case you mean Severus and
Viktor; or "had" as in "sex with" in which case you mean their fathers?
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
karn...@cs.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> Karnak 17 wrote:
>
> > Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>
> >>> FRED! That's why he is so nasty to Percy, and why he tried to
> >>> get Ron to take an Unbreakable Vow. He figures if he gets rid
> >>> of one sibling, his mother will be able to tell him apart from
> >>> George again.
>
> >> Wouldn't that be Percy's motive to be nasty to Fred?
>
> > Why? Molly counts Percy as one of her children whether Fred is
> > around or not. It is Fred who needs to get rid of an extra
> > sibling in order to get noticed.
>
> Oh I see, okay.
>
> > Trouble is, it isn't working. Molly still thinks of Percy as one
> > of her six children,
>
> Six because Fred is not counted?
Pre-cisely. That's why Molly keeps mixing him up with George, and has
to knit "F" and "G" on their sweaters. It is to try to remind herself
of her seventh child.
> > even though he's been estranged from the family. Next book, Fred
> > will have to resort to more . . . permanent . . . measures to get
> > his mother to start counting him. It doesn't look good for Percy,
> > I'm afraid.
>
> I dunno - after little Edward killed David, his parents changed his
> name to Percy to protect him, and abandoned their alphabetic naming
> scheme.
Wait. . . Bill, Charlie, David, Edward (Percy), Fred, George -- and
Ginny??? Looks like GEORGE is the one that Molly forgot about.
> > All this sibling rivalry could have been avoided with a little
> > family planning -- like when Eileen Prince had just Snape and
> > Krum, and spaced them apart sensibly. (See? This conversation
> > IS on topic.)
>
> Is that "had" as in "gave birth to", in which case you mean Severus
> and Viktor;
Yes.
chimaera
> Ginny??? Looks like GEORGE is the one that Molly forgot about.
LOL. Good point, but you're kind of cheating ... why turn Percy into
Edward but not Bill into William? And what about Ron? Whole buncha
deceased kids in the middle there? :-)
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
>>> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>> Six because Fred is not counted?
> Pre-cisely. That's why Molly keeps mixing him up with George, and has
> to knit "F" and "G" on their sweaters. It is to try to remind herself
> of her seventh child.
So sad.
>>> even though he's been estranged from the family. Next book, Fred
>>> will have to resort to more . . . permanent . . . measures to get
>>> his mother to start counting him. It doesn't look good for Percy,
>>> I'm afraid.
>> I dunno - after little Edward killed David, his parents changed his
>> name to Percy to protect him, and abandoned their alphabetic naming
>> scheme.
> Wait. . . Bill, Charlie, David, Edward (Percy), Fred, George -- and
> Ginny??? Looks like GEORGE is the one that Molly forgot about.
That was all part of Molly's cunning plan, after poor David died. As I
said, she made her husband abandon the alphabet gig, so they named the
new baby Ronald instead of Harry (if it's a boy) or Hermione (if it's
a girl) - just as well, as things turned out 20 months later. However,
the Ministry was still suspicious, so with a massive gulp of bravery,
they reused an existing initial with Ginevra (or Gregory if a boy).
>>> All this sibling rivalry could have been avoided with a little
>>> family planning -- like when Eileen Prince had just Snape and
>>> Krum, and spaced them apart sensibly. (See? This conversation
>>> IS on topic.)
>> Is that "had" as in "gave birth to", in which case you mean Severus
>> and Viktor;
> Yes.
Ah.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
karn...@cs.com
Um . . . . Adopted?
karn...@cs.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> >> Karnak 17 wrote:
>
> >>> Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
>
> >> Six because Fred is not counted?
>
> > Pre-cisely. That's why Molly keeps mixing him up with George,
> > and has to knit "F" and "G" on their sweaters. It is to try to
> > remind herself of her seventh child.
>
> So sad.
>
>
> >>> even though he's been estranged from the family. Next book, Fred
> >>> will have to resort to more . . . permanent . . . measures to
> >>> get his mother to start counting him. It doesn't look good for
> >>> Percy, I'm afraid.
>
> >> I dunno - after little Edward killed David, his parents changed
> >> his name to Percy to protect him, and abandoned their alphabetic
> >> naming scheme.
>
> > Wait. . . Bill, Charlie, David, Edward (Percy), Fred, George --
> > and Ginny??? Looks like GEORGE is the one that Molly forgot
> > about.
>
> That was all part of Molly's cunning plan, after poor David died.
> As I said, she made her husband abandon the alphabet gig, so they
> named the new baby Ronald instead of Harry (if it's a boy) or
> Hermione (if it's a girl) - just as well, as things turned out 20
> months later.
Gotcha.
>However, the Ministry was still suspicious, so with a
> massive gulp of bravery, they reused an existing initial with
> Ginevra (or Gregory if a boy).
Yes. Well, it takes DRASTIC measures to fool the Ministry.
I hope Ginny won't be too bitter when she finds out that she could have
been a Hermione instead; if only it wasn't for that dratted Edward.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
> Gotcha.
Well, Ginevra would only have been Hermione if Harry wasn't born.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!