Snape = Gryffindor
BubblyBabs
just in case...
Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias toward
being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor? He
was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story, you
can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
And, interesting, his mother knew how he'd be received as a half-blood,
you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another house or
something.... Wonder if she told him not to let anyone know his father was
a muggle....
Babs
BubblyBabs
"BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
Found a discussion on this (of course right after I send the original post):
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.fan.harry-potter/2007-07/msg06079.html
Babs
John VanSickle
> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring it up
> just in case...
>
> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias toward
> being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor? He
> was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story, you
> can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
Methinks the Sorting Hat operates as follows:
1. If the sortee desperately wants to be in a particular house, there
they go.
2. Otherwise, the Sorting hat discerns which qualities are most admired
by the sortee; and I mean admired, and not possessed. Wormtail admired
courage, but appeared to lack it. Snape had plenty of courage, but
considered acquiring power to be much more important. Hermione has a
ton of brains, but she freely confesses that brains are not the most
important thing (and she wanted to be in Gryffindor).
Regards,
John
santosh
> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring it
> up just in case...
>
> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
> toward being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a
> Gryffindor?
Honestly no. I think he might've been placed in Ravenclaw since he is
more academic than brave.
> He was certainly brave enough to be one...
He needed the jolt of Lily's death to resolve to be brave. At the time
he entered Hogwarts, he wasn't suitable for Gryffindor, or rather, more
suited to either Slytherin or Ravenclaw than Gryffindor.
> But, as was told in the
> story, you can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
Yes, but if the Sorting Hat listens to the "wishes" of all the students
we might not get equally proportioned Houses. Almost no one wants to be
in Hufflepuff. The Sorting Hat will only take heed of your preferences
if they are desperate enough, and if your other psychological
characteristics won't make you clash with your "chosen" House.
> And, interesting, his mother knew how he'd be received as a
> half-blood, you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another
> house or something....
Presumably she didn't have the strength to do so, during the intervals
between her "punishments".
Deevo
news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> just in case...
>
> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
> toward being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a
> Gryffindor? He was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told
> in the story, you can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
No, I really don't. Brave he may have been but his actions stemmed from
motives that stemmed primarily from self interest, in that he is the
quintisential (sp?) Slytherin.
> And, interesting, his mother knew how he'd be received as a half-blood,
> you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another house or
> something.... Wonder if she told him not to let anyone know his father
> was a muggle....
I don't know, we don't have much to go on regarding Eileen. We know she and
Tobias fought but we don't know what over or the outcome.
Actually I kind of look at Harry, Snape and Riddle as three possible
outcomes of similar situations. Tom as the absolute worst, Harry as the
best and Snape as somewhere in between. If diferent circumstances had
applied either could have become one of the others.
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm
santosh
> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
> news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring
>> it up just in case...
>>
>> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
>> toward being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a
>> Gryffindor? He was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was
>> told in the story, you can choose to be in a house if you really want
>> it....
>
> No, I really don't. Brave he may have been but his actions stemmed
> from motives that stemmed primarily from self interest, in that he is
> the quintisential (sp?) Slytherin.
After Lily's death, what self interest could he have had? He lost
everthing didn't he? He could have very easily quit the field, and left
it to others.
<snip>
> Actually I kind of look at Harry, Snape and Riddle as three possible
> outcomes of similar situations. Tom as the absolute worst, Harry as
> the best and Snape as somewhere in between. If diferent circumstances
> had applied either could have become one of the others.
Well Harry's and Tom's childhood were very similar, but IIRC Snape had
parents (though poor). One thing in common between between them was
that they were all subject to some amount of abuse during their
childhood, Snape from his father, Harry from his Uncle and Aunt, and
Tom from his orphanage mates. Tom seems to have reacted pathologically
by closing in all his emotions and deciding very firmly, very early on,
that the only way to not get hurt in life was to stand on top of all
the others. Snape might have _thought_ the same, but he had neither the
magical power, nor the charisma of Tom to actually pull it off. And of
course the presence of Lily always kept him at least tenuously rooted
to sanity. Harry OTOH simply didn't react "badly" to all the bullying
in his childhood, by turning into a bully himself at the first
opportunity (i.e., at Hogwarts). He simply seems to be made of better
stuff.
If Rowling is trying to say that the fate of a person is determined by
his genes, environment and circumstances (chance), then she did a good
job with Snape, but a poor job with both Harry and Tom, especially the
latter. But I doubt that she is trying to say anything in the first
place. This is just a children's story.
BubblyBabs
"santosh" <santo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g2r6p9$h1v$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> BubblyBabs wrote:
>
>> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring it
>> up just in case...
>>
>> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
>> toward being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a
>> Gryffindor?
>
> Honestly no. I think he might've been placed in Ravenclaw since he is
> more academic than brave.
Yes, I think you are right...
>
>> He was certainly brave enough to be one...
>
> He needed the jolt of Lily's death to resolve to be brave. At the time
> he entered Hogwarts, he wasn't suitable for Gryffindor, or rather, more
> suited to either Slytherin or Ravenclaw than Gryffindor.
>
>> But, as was told in the
>> story, you can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
>
> Yes, but if the Sorting Hat listens to the "wishes" of all the students
> we might not get equally proportioned Houses. Almost no one wants to be
> in Hufflepuff. The Sorting Hat will only take heed of your preferences
> if they are desperate enough, and if your other psychological
> characteristics won't make you clash with your "chosen" House.
Good point, the hat may listen to your wishes but if you are dumber than a
box of rocks it won't put you in Ravenclaw no matter what....
>
>> And, interesting, his mother knew how he'd be received as a
>> half-blood, you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another
>> house or something....
>
> Presumably she didn't have the strength to do so, during the intervals
> between her "punishments".
>
Hmmmm....
Babs
BubblyBabs
I don't know... There are people out there who are evil just because they
are evil... They just don't have the capability to love even if they wanted
to. IE - Riddle...
You are, I think, correct with your thoughts on Snape, JKR did a good job of
using familial history with current actions...
Harry though, he was neither wishy-washy and completely acquiescent as some
become when abused as a younster nor was a bully as others become... He
also did not ruminate over what occurred in the past - the closest he comes
to it is when he shows Scrimgeour his hand w/ the scarring from Umbridges
"lines" indicating his overwhelming anger over the situation it involved...
So, Harry would be considered unique as DD stated...
Babs
santosh
On the whole, Snape (between the triad) seems to reflect "real world"
characters and responses better. He was certainly highly immature and
made a lot of gravely bad descisons, but eventually he realised his
mistakes and he did his damnnest to atone for them. Some things in
particular, his hatred of James and Sirius, seems to be too deep for
correction, but I guess we all have such quirks, though of different
natures.
Harry is a less believable character. He _should_ have reacted far worse
than he did, given his abuse and responsibilities. He has no
discernable personality defects, no neurotic behaviour, no adverse
reactions, nothing, except for a brief period during the events of
OotP. Slightly too good to be true, though I guess there are such
individuals, albeit rare, even in the real world.
But Tom is portrayed as a born psychopath. I don't know if such people
are possible. He is a very unidimensional, and ultimately boring
character, a simpleton even, except for his vicious nature and personal
charms (he once had).
KarentheUnicorn
>
> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias toward
> being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor? He
> was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story, you
> can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
I would say we don't know Severus' total reason for wanting to be in
Slytherin. We get the fact that he doesn't like muggles but one would
have to ask the question why?
I've seen many assumptions about his mother but she married a muggle
and had a muggles child, that sort of throws a monkey wrench in the
theory that she hated muggles. I have also seen the statement before
on other messages/boards/grouns that she was in Slytherin but I do not
remember it ever being said what house she was in. I would not jump to
the conclusion she was a Slytherin.
One thing you have to think about is, why would Severus dislike
muggles being that he is half a muggle. For me it is easy to assume
from what Petunia says in DH about him: 'I know who you are, You're
that Snape boy! They live down Spinner's end by the river,'
I remember I had a conversation about this a while back about this -
that Petunia and Lily would never really know Snape because they were
from 2 different classes - he poor and they a little bit better to do
and living in the better part of town. Petunia's comment suggest she
not only knows who he is but where he lives. This is more than just
saying he's a boy that lives on the bad side of town - she knows his
last name and to me that suggests more knowledge about him than just
he's a total stranger. This suggest there are already rumors about him
among the children of that area.
One could easily assume that IF boys like James Potter and Sirius
Black were up for treating Snape badly then how would muggle children
treat Severus? From Birth to 11 years old he would have lived around
muggles. Spinners End we know from Bellatrix remarks is a muggle area.
Severus and his parents are not living in an area that is filled with
magical people.
For me it could be easy to see that other muggle boys from the start
might have giving Severus a hard time. He was different, he was
scrawny and unfavored so if two good guy purebloods that are supposed
to behave properly can treat Snape badly then how would muggle
children treat him.
We also have the aspect of Severus' father. The most we know about the
relationship of his parents is they argued a lot and his father
apparently doesn't like anything much. So in some way Severus from
birth to 11 maybe hasn't been treated all that well by muggles. He
appeared to be so ready to be a wizard and go to the magical world - I
believe that maybe he hoped/thought he would find acceptance there.
Slytherin seemed like the right place for him, in his mind he must
have thought that it was right to live away from muggles because his
experiences with muggles might have been bad.
I don't see that at 11 he was thinking I want to kill all muggles and
muggleborn - I see it as if I can get away from these people that
treated me badly I can live in a place I'm accepted. But then when he
gets to Hogwarts he has boys like James/Sirius who throw another
monkey wrench into his ideas of a better life. Not only are they
considered the good guys but he, Severus is considered and oddball and
a dark arts lover.
Is it really easy to choose the Dumbledore's team when you've slowly
been convenced you're evil/bad and not worthy of the likes of James
Potter and Sirius Black?
>
> And, interesting, his mother knew how he'd be received as a half-blood,
> you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another house or
> something.... Wonder if she told him not to let anyone know his father was
> a muggle....
>
Well they allow halfbloods in with Voldie, but I still have a lot of
trouble seeing how they would ever be fully accepted. So, it's very
hard for me to understand where JKR is going with half-bloods are
alright and Voldie's folks are okay with that. Somehow I think that
Severus must have kept it quiet. He proclaimed himself the half-blood
prince. To me I can't see how promoting yourself as a half-blood would
equal something Death Eaters would embrace. But also we know Lupin
said he wasn't familar with the name - it is kind of like the name was
secret and Severus was the only one who knew what it meant. So I
haven't totally figured out how a halfblood would so easily be
accepted by the likes of DE and Voldie - it just doesn't quite make
sense to me.
>He needed the jolt of Lily's death to resolve to be brave. At the time
>he entered Hogwarts, he wasn't suitable for Gryffindor, or rather, more
>suited to either Slytherin or Ravenclaw than Gryffindor.
Getting attacked 2 on one and not backing down is what exactly? We see
in the Worst Memory scene that James and Sirius attacked Snape for no
reason. Maybe he did something horrible the night before but I
honestly think JKR was trying to show us even though Snape was a git
he did not deserve what happened to him. No matter what Snape had done
IT is unjust what James and Sirius did. AT that point Lily thought
Snape was worthy of being protected - she went to his defense and saw
what James/Sirius were doing as bad.
So I think he was brave before Lily died - you can't stand up and try
to fight off two people without being brave, it was not just Lily who
made Snape what he is...it was not just her who made him brave.
He wanted to be in Slytherin and chose it, much like Harry he was
probably saying not Gryffindor. That is what he chose and wanted.
Everyone is making a judgement call here on this but I would like to
say his choice was not wrong. Even JKR said not all Slytherins are
bad. IF the house is allowed to stay at the school then it must have
been assumed by the so called 'good people' that children would be
allowed to go into that house. So why do we even think Severus is
anything other than a good Slytherin? I think because most fans still
see the same thing the Characters see - all Slytherins are bad.
Dumbledore's crappy comment about we sort to soon, to me I think
Severus would be offended by it. To me it comes across as almost
saying Hay Sev, you're good enough now to be a Gryffindor.
Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
it to. Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
house why didn't Dumbledore remove it? Well I guess I just did. But
still, the house was allowed to stay at Hogwarts, JKR says not all
Slytherins are bad...so...what is the problem with Severus being a
Slytherin?
I agree with the comments about Harry and Voldemort being examples of
flat perfection, One being pure evil and one being pure good. Someone
brought up the stuff about Harry being angry and bad in OOTP but
remember it wasn't Harry it was Voldemorts influence that made him
that way.
I really do think that at some point JKR was hearing people talk about
how perfect Harry was and I think she might have started to try and
show Harry's flaws or give him flaws and make him a more rounded
individual...but it was kind of too late and it was hard to accept for
some readers.
I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable. JKR
uses a comment in an interview to say, Harry is not perfect like
Snape...I found that a poor excuse and a bad choice all together for
her to do and make Harry do - it came across almost like a joke and
that the status of using a evil spell became easy lighthearted laughs
and okay for the good characters to do because they are 'good
characters'; him using Bellatrix teaching him about unforgiveables in
a very flippant manner really ruined it for me.
We the readers were all taught that these spells like AK and the
torture curse are the worst things you can do. But look at it this
way. When Molly Weasley AK'ed Bellatrix - did we see Molly utter the
words? Did we read the AK curse come from her lips in actual text? Was
it there?
NO. To me this is clear evidence that we can allow the good characters
to do the evil spells as long as it is for good reasons. BUT, we sorta
hide it and do not show the actual act. Molly's killing of Bellatrix
is hidden, we do not really know what spell she used but we assume by
what we read that there could only be one spell she used.
Were we not shown through the whole series that this is the most
horrible evil spell and that Voldie was famous for it. That torture
curses were so taboo and horrible that we both must not learn about
them but also must never use them.
But now we have good characters using them. Out of all the spells the
goodies learn there was nothing they could use, they had to get down
into the trenches and use the bad spells to. Thus to me all of that
removes everything we were taught about these spells. They are NOT bad
spells and the use of bad spells does not reflect on your soul or
change you totally.
I really did not like that Harry used the torture spell in book 7, I
felt it was a very flippant use and was simply an attempt to morph the
character into something different. To me it was just inexcusable but
thats just my personal feelings about it and I'm sure there are a lot
of other people who were fine with it.
I still find it rather interesting that when asked about it JKR uses
Snape and compared Harry to him. (laughs) An attempt maybe to get the
Snape fans to jump on Harry's wagon of greater good?
I personally still haven't figured out what greater good Dumbledore
was really serving so I'm more inclined to stay on Snape's side and
accept that he was/is a Slytherin since not all Slytherins are bad.
BubblyBabs
Babs
Toon
<ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote:
>
>Good point, the hat may listen to your wishes but if you are dumber than a
>box of rocks it won't put you in Ravenclaw no matter what....
I think it listens if it can't easily decide. Though Harry seemed
more like a test to see if he was more brave or ambitious.
Remember, Harry didn't want Gryffendor. He just didn't want
Slytherin. Any of the three would have been fine with him.
Toon
wrote:
Tom also never had love. Harry did. 15 months with his folks, and a
tiny amount from Petunia at least (she did take him in, to project
him. Vernon was concerned at the start, but after living with Harry,
I can only surmise Harry did accidental magic in public, barley
explained away, and Vernon began to hate him for ruining his image,
which is all he ever cared about anyway.) Snape did, regardless of
his parents behavior to each other.
>If Rowling is trying to say that the fate of a person is determined by
>his genes, environment and circumstances (chance), then she did a good
>job with Snape, but a poor job with both Harry and Tom, especially the
>latter. But I doubt that she is trying to say anything in the first
>place. This is just a children's story.
There should have been a defining moment that showed why Harry never
turned out all rotten.
Toon
<ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote:
>Harry though, he was neither wishy-washy and completely acquiescent as some
>become when abused as a younster nor was a bully as others become... He
>also did not ruminate over what occurred in the past - the closest he comes
>to it is when he shows Scrimgeour his hand w/ the scarring from Umbridges
>"lines" indicating his overwhelming anger over the situation it involved...
>So, Harry would be considered unique as DD stated...
>
>Babs
>
He also briefly pondered if he would have had siblings had his folks
lived. So, he occasionally dwelt on the past and it's possibilities.
But, some people just aren't the type to dwell on the past much. They
accept the cards they're dealt, and deal with them.
Toon
wrote:
>Harry is a less believable character. He _should_ have reacted far worse
>than he did, given his abuse and responsibilities. He has no
>discernable personality defects, no neurotic behaviour, no adverse
>reactions, nothing, except for a brief period during the events of
>OotP. Slightly too good to be true, though I guess there are such
>individuals, albeit rare, even in the real world.
Well, he does have a reckless need to save people, and he tends to
rush in without thinking. And his upbringing about not asking
questions have hurt him. The Sirius dream was full of red flags that
he should have questioned. Even Snape knew to ask where Sirius was.
It never dawned on Harry to find out. In fact, if it weren't for
Umbridge, Harry would never have even told Snape, and would have flown
off blindly and secretly into a deadly trap (thankfully, it wasn't a
secret).
>But Tom is portrayed as a born psychopath. I don't know if such people
>are possible.
I think so, if only as a catalyst to change the world. Thanks to
Tommy Boy, the MOM was reformatted to weed out corruption.
santosh
Not that he would remember, but I suppose it could have a subconcious
influence. You have a good point.
> and a
> tiny amount from Petunia at least (she did take him in, to project
> him.
Petunia gave Harry only as much "love" as the orphanage keepers gave to
Tom, i.e., none. She took him in out of a sense of duty and mostly
because of fear of Dumbledore. And once Dumbledore decided something,
there is not much that a couple of Muggles can do to say no to him.
> Vernon was concerned at the start, but after living with Harry,
> I can only surmise Harry did accidental magic in public, barley
> explained away, and Vernon began to hate him for ruining his image,
> which is all he ever cared about anyway.) Snape did, regardless of
> his parents behavior to each other.
Snape certainly was loved (if only in a lukewarm manner) by his mother.
It's less clear from the books if his father had any affection for him.
Snape's childhood is relatively more different than Tom's and Harry's.
For one thing he had parents and *some* amount of parental love, but he
also had to contend with a severely broken household, something that
Tom and Harry were spared due to being orphans.
Also Snape was apparently persecuted more in Hogwarts than Tom or Harry,
and he seems to have had (made) even less friends than Harry, though
more than Tom (for Tom never had a friend. Everyone was a tool for him,
right from the beginning). Slytherin group's ethos certainly affected
him adversely - he would certainly have not joined the DEs, had he been
sorted into Ravenclaw. Snape's only stabilising factor was Lily with
whom he unfortunately got sundered halfway through Hogwarts. Also the
overwhelming bitterness of losing your only friend *and* secret love to
your *worst* enemy (James) must have surely been a major factor in him
joining the DEs.
On the whole, Snape is more complex character than the goody-goody Harry
or evil-incarnate Tom.
>>If Rowling is trying to say that the fate of a person is determined by
>>his genes, environment and circumstances (chance), then she did a good
>>job with Snape, but a poor job with both Harry and Tom, especially the
>>latter. But I doubt that she is trying to say anything in the first
>>place. This is just a children's story.
>
> There should have been a defining moment that showed why Harry never
> turned out all rotten.
I think the most influential factors on Harry that prevented him from
slipping into bitterness were Hermione and Ron. After each of his
trials at the end of every year, he reflects (during the closing
chapter of the books), on how is friends and well-wishers mean so much
to him. If not for them (particularly Hermione and ron) he would
certainly have turned more and more bitter after each encounter with
Voldemort/Riddle.
Deevo
>
>> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
>> news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring
>>> it up just in case...
>>>
>>> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
>>> toward being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a
>>> Gryffindor? He was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was
>>> told in the story, you can choose to be in a house if you really want
>>> it....
>>
>> No, I really don't. Brave he may have been but his actions stemmed
>> from motives that stemmed primarily from self interest, in that he is
>> the quintisential (sp?) Slytherin.
>
> After Lily's death, what self interest could he have had? He lost
> everthing didn't he? He could have very easily quit the field, and left
> it to others.
True enough, though he remained, IMO, obsessed with her. He basically
didn't get over it and move forward.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Actually I kind of look at Harry, Snape and Riddle as three possible
>> outcomes of similar situations. Tom as the absolute worst, Harry as
>> the best and Snape as somewhere in between. If diferent circumstances
>> had applied either could have become one of the others.
>
> Well Harry's and Tom's childhood were very similar, but IIRC Snape had
> parents (though poor). One thing in common between between them was
> that they were all subject to some amount of abuse during their
> childhood, Snape from his father, Harry from his Uncle and Aunt, and
> Tom from his orphanage mates. Tom seems to have reacted pathologically
> by closing in all his emotions and deciding very firmly, very early on,
> that the only way to not get hurt in life was to stand on top of all
> the others. Snape might have _thought_ the same, but he had neither the
> magical power, nor the charisma of Tom to actually pull it off. And of
> course the presence of Lily always kept him at least tenuously rooted
> to sanity. Harry OTOH simply didn't react "badly" to all the bullying
> in his childhood, by turning into a bully himself at the first
> opportunity (i.e., at Hogwarts). He simply seems to be made of better
> stuff.
Perhaps, it's hard to say. I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
> If Rowling is trying to say that the fate of a person is determined by
> his genes, environment and circumstances (chance), then she did a good
> job with Snape, but a poor job with both Harry and Tom, especially the
> latter. But I doubt that she is trying to say anything in the first
> place.
If one theme does show through in this series it's the importance of
choices. Personally I feel that each of these three could have become
similar to the other had they made different choices.
> This is just a children's story.
I really don't think it is.
Lyle Francis Delp
>
> Dumbledore's crappy comment about we sort to soon, to me I think
> Severus would be offended by it. To me it comes across as almost
> saying Hay Sev, you're good enough now to be a Gryffindor.
>
> Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
> suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
> pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
> have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
> it to. Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
> house why didn't Dumbledore remove it? Well I guess I just did. But
> still, the house was allowed to stay at Hogwarts, JKR says not all
> Slytherins are bad...so...what is the problem with Severus being a
> Slytherin?
Slytherin is not defined as "a bunch of slimy, Muggle-hating, Pure-Blood
only gits". It is defined as "those who would use any and all means
to achieve their aims".
Most of the world's politicians would be Slytherins, as would
most of the successful CEOs in business.
--
Lyle Francis Delp
"Yeah, Lyle Francis Delp! Ya wanna make sumthin outtavit?"
BubblyBabs
"Lyle Francis Delp" <de...@nystpen.gov> wrote in message
news:2008061406270916807-delp@nystpengov...
*Snorting laughter*
Oh my, that was good!
Babs
santosh
<snip>
> I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
> that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
> dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
Yes, and even more surprising is the use of Imperio by McGonagall.
[ ... ]
> If one theme does show through in this series it's the importance of
> choices. Personally I feel that each of these three could have become
> similar to the other had they made different choices.
And yet the hero of the series, Harry, had surprisingly little control
of his own life, until he did away with Voldemort.
<snip>
Alex Clark
> . . .
> Dumbledore's crappy comment about we sort to soon, to me I think
> Severus would be offended by it. To me it comes across as almost
> saying Hay Sev, you're good enough now to be a Gryffindor.
>
> Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
> suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
> pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
> have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
> it to. Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
The way I see it, he probably had no authority to do such a thing. His
authority was limited by the Board of Governors (which we will of
course remember had a prominent Slytherin on it), and was also limited
by custom. You don't just go about changing a thousand-year-old rule
on your own personal authority. Just look at all the vestiges of the
obsolete aristocracy that are still attached to British government.
That isn't because it's good, it's because not enough people are
determined to support the appropriate reforms.
> I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable. JKR
> uses a comment in an interview to say, Harry is not perfect like
> Snape...I found that a poor excuse and a bad choice all together for
> her to do and make Harry do - it came across almost like a joke and
> that the status of using a evil spell became easy lighthearted laughs
> and okay for the good characters to do because they are 'good
> characters'; him using Bellatrix teaching him about unforgiveables in
> a very flippant manner really ruined it for me.
It makes a bit more sense when you really think about who he used it
on. He had just recently heard about how that same Death Eater had
been forcing his friends, and lots of other children, to use that same
curse on each other. That doesn't make it right, but it greatly
mitigates the wrongness of using the curse.
The way I see it, there's a threshold that one crosses in order to use
the Cruciatus Curse, and almost anyone has some threshold at which
they would do it. For Amycus, it's just for fun, a handy way of
punishing students doing detention, and a good thing to force children
to learn. Harry, OTOH, doesn't do it in response to anything less than
a horribly abusive teacher who makes Snape look like a nice guy by
comparison. In terms of the fact that they both used the curse, one
could say that they are on the same moral level. But in terms of their
motives for doing it, there is little comparison between the two.
--
Alex Clark
http://www.cafepress.com/albgoode
http://www.myspace.com/powdourfort
I arm old Voldemort (an anagram rejected by Ollivander, but not by
Dumbledore)
Deevo
> Deevo wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
>> that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
>> dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
>
> Yes, and even more surprising is the use of Imperio by McGonagall.
Sort of, I really think of the three unforgivables only Crucio has no
mitigating circumstances attached. The other two IMO can have a certain
justification under certain situations.
<snip>
>> If one theme does show through in this series it's the importance of
>> choices. Personally I feel that each of these three could have become
>> similar to the other had they made different choices.
>
> And yet the hero of the series, Harry, had surprisingly little control
> of his own life, until he did away with Voldemort.
Yes and no, don't forget at any time Harry could have quite easily "gone the
other way" so to speak. He was in fact given that choice almost from the
start of book one (by Malfoy) and later in the same book by Voldemort
himself.
Toon
<karenth...@msn.com> wrote:
>Is it really easy to choose the Dumbledore's team when you've slowly
>been convenced you're evil/bad and not worthy of the likes of James
>Potter and Sirius Black?
Voldemort offered him acceptance and revenge. it's how he worked.
Find out what someone desires, then promise them that. Power,
revenge, acceptance, removal of impurities.
>Well they allow halfbloods in with Voldie, but I still have a lot of
>trouble seeing how they would ever be fully accepted. So, it's very
>hard for me to understand where JKR is going with half-bloods are
>alright and Voldie's folks are okay with that. Somehow I think that
>Severus must have kept it quiet. He proclaimed himself the half-blood
>prince. To me I can't see how promoting yourself as a half-blood would
>equal something Death Eaters would embrace. But also we know Lupin
>said he wasn't familar with the name - it is kind of like the name was
>secret and Severus was the only one who knew what it meant. So I
>haven't totally figured out how a halfblood would so easily be
>accepted by the likes of DE and Voldie - it just doesn't quite make
>sense to me.
He would have kept it secret (he's picked on enough, now he's claiming
he's a prince, and a half blood at that? Open season on Snapes). I
still say Lily gave him the nickname to cheer him up.
>Getting attacked 2 on one and not backing down is what exactly? We see
>in the Worst Memory scene that James and Sirius attacked Snape for no
>reason. Maybe he did something horrible the night before but I
>honestly think JKR was trying to show us even though Snape was a git
>he did not deserve what happened to him.
According to the scene and Sirius' follow up to Harry, Snape did
nothing accept breath. THye were bored, Snape was they're favorite
punching bag. I don't think Snape ever did much to them at first.
James just had a problem with Dark Art Lovers. I blame the
GrandPotters for that. But when push came to shove, Snape retaliated.
began inventing spells to hurt, etc. And when James forced Snape to
blow it with Lily, it was all out war.
>No matter what Snape had done
>IT is unjust what James and Sirius did. AT that point Lily thought
>Snape was worthy of being protected - she went to his defense and saw
>what James/Sirius were doing as bad.
It was, and he was still her friend. Probably slowly drifting apart
though, because of who he hung out with.
>He wanted to be in Slytherin and chose it, much like Harry he was
>probably saying not Gryffindor. That is what he chose and wanted.
>Everyone is making a judgement call here on this but I would like to
>say his choice was not wrong. Even JKR said not all Slytherins are
>bad. IF the house is allowed to stay at the school then it must have
>been assumed by the so called 'good people' that children would be
>allowed to go into that house. So why do we even think Severus is
>anything other than a good Slytherin? I think because most fans still
>see the same thing the Characters see - all Slytherins are bad.
And why not? Hagrid said so, and he can't possible lie, use
hyperbole, be biased against. If Harid says they're all evil, it's a
scientifically proven fact.
Snape was brave because of how he lived under V's nose as a spy. Then
returned there a decade plus later.
>Dumbledore's crappy comment about we sort to soon, to me I think
>Severus would be offended by it. To me it comes across as almost
>saying Hay Sev, you're good enough now to be a Gryffindor.
Or Snape's a pretty poor Slytherin. But DD meant it as a compliment.
>Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
>suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
>pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
>have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
>it to.
Let's see, DD bends the no first years in Quidditch rule so Harry can
play for gryffendor, he's happy Harry's in gryffendor, and seems to
perhaps tip the point balance in gryffendor's favor after Slytheirn's
already won. I think it's safe to say DD was in gryffendor, and he's
still quite loyal. Just like Snape favors Slytherins and hates
Gryffendors.
> Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
>house why didn't Dumbledore remove it?
Many question why keep a House full of DE children, and who's former
members became DE's.
>I agree with the comments about Harry and Voldemort being examples of
>flat perfection, One being pure evil and one being pure good. Someone
>brought up the stuff about Harry being angry and bad in OOTP but
>remember it wasn't Harry it was Voldemorts influence that made him
>that way.
Or hormones. He is a fifteen year old boy after all. And as Sirius
pointed out, they're all idiots at that age.
>I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable.
I agree. I understand the need to control people at Gringotts, and he
was a bit reluctant, especially the second time, but to attack another
person to defend a teacher (who wasn't in mortal danger), whom you
could just stun, is, unforgivable. And he enjoyed it, too. Apparently
protecting McGonnagel meant more than avenging Sirius' death.
>We the readers were all taught that these spells like AK and the
>torture curse are the worst things you can do. But look at it this
>way. When Molly Weasley AK'ed Bellatrix - did we see Molly utter the
>words? Did we read the AK curse come from her lips in actual text? Was
>it there?
>
>NO. To me this is clear evidence that we can allow the good characters
>to do the evil spells as long as it is for good reasons. BUT, we sorta
>hide it and do not show the actual act. Molly's killing of Bellatrix
>is hidden, we do not really know what spell she used but we assume by
>what we read that there could only be one spell she used.
Seemed more like an accident to me. The spell hit her heart, and that
stopped it, as opposed to deliberately killing. IRL, if you get hit
in the chests in a certain spot, you can die. It's possible a Stunner
to that spot will stop the heart. A school mate I barely knew was
playing baseball at school, and got hit in his chest with the ball. He
suffered a heart attack and died. I think that's what happened to
Bellatrix. Molly hit her just right, and stopped her heart.
Even if Molly did intentionally kill, it was to stop a madwoman who
would kill other for the sheer joy of killing. Harry attacked a giant
moron for being a big bully. Big difference.
Toon
wrote:
>Petunia gave Harry only as much "love" as the orphanage keepers gave to
>Tom, i.e., none. She took him in out of a sense of duty and mostly
>because of fear of Dumbledore. And once Dumbledore decided something,
>there is not much that a couple of Muggles can do to say no to him.
She gave him love, but the more accidental magic popped up, the more
her old jealousies arose, and the more hate filled she became.
Even DD points out that she did agree to take Harry in, fully aware of
all that meant. There was love at first, but jealousy and image
obsession soon squashed that one.
Toon
<de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>Most of the world's politicians would be Slytherins, as would
>most of the successful CEOs in business.
Oh good comparison. Use evil people to prove not all Slytherins are
evil.
Lyle Francis Delp
I think it an apt comparison. Politicians aren't necessarily
evil. They are motivated by self interest. Evil? It depends
on what side you're on. My political side isn't evil, but
yours is and vice versa. :-)
BubblyBabs
> stopped it, as opposed to deliberately killing. IRL, if you get hit
> in the chests in a certain spot, you can die. It's possible a Stunner
> to that spot will stop the heart. A school mate I barely knew was
> playing baseball at school, and got hit in his chest with the ball. He
> suffered a heart attack and died.
Not a heart attack - he had an interruption of the electrical activity of
his heart aka v.fib.... Happened a few years ago to a young kid in Pa when
his mom hit a beeline into his chest, I can only imagine the guilt she
felt...
Babs
BubblyBabs
> stopped it, as opposed to deliberately killing. IRL, if you get hit
> in the chests in a certain spot, you can die. It's possible a Stunner
> to that spot will stop the heart. A school mate I barely knew was
> playing baseball at school, and got hit in his chest with the ball. He
> suffered a heart attack and died.
Not a heart attack - he had an interruption of the electrical activity of
his heart aka v.fib.... Happened a few years ago to a young kid in Pa when
his mom hit a beeline into his chest, I can only imagine the guilt she
felt...
Anyway, I think Karen made a lot of good points in defense of Snape... But
then, everyone seems to have something interesting to say one way or another
that I didn't consider...
Babs
BubblyBabs
"Toon" <to...@toon.com> wrote in message
news:hmk754pjgialgsv4g...@4ax.com...
No, I don't think there was love at first... The indication was the scream
that came when she first realized it was Harry at her doorstep... And she
allowed Big D to pinch Harry indicating the beginning of his torment in the
household....
Now, if you think in terms of Harry having love the first 15 months of his
life w/ his family that he may have recalled unconsciously then I'd believe
that... Kind of like Helen Keller having sight and hearing the first 18
months of her life allowing her to start being educated at such an old age
of 6 years old - without those months of sight and hearing her mind probably
would have been unreachable no matter how intelligent she was... Same with
Laura Bridgeman...
Babs
BubblyBabs
> Deevo wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
>> that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
>> dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
>
> Yes, and even more surprising is the use of Imperio by McGonagall.
>
I don't know - she did it to make someone harmful into someone who wasn't...
She could have AK'd them...
Babs
Drusilla
Drusilla
> On 2008-06-13 07:41:09 -0400, KarentheUnicorn <karenth...@msn.com>
> said:
>
>>
>> Dumbledore's crappy comment about we sort to soon, to me I think
>> Severus would be offended by it. To me it comes across as almost
>> saying Hay Sev, you're good enough now to be a Gryffindor.
>>
>> Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
>> suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
>> pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
>> have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
>> it to. Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
>> house why didn't Dumbledore remove it? Well I guess I just did. But
>> still, the house was allowed to stay at Hogwarts, JKR says not all
>> Slytherins are bad...so...what is the problem with Severus being a
>> Slytherin?
>
> Slytherin is not defined as "a bunch of slimy, Muggle-hating, Pure-Blood
> only gits". It is defined as "those who would use any and all means
> to achieve their aims".
Which is not always a bad thing.
Welsh Dog
<evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>BubblyBabs wrote:
<snip>
>Methinks the Sorting Hat operates as follows:
>1. If the sortee desperately wants to be in a particular house, there
>they go.
We only know that is a possibility from the example of one unique
entity (and that one was hardly typical... after all he carried two
souls) and there hasn't been confirmation anywhere else in the books
tmk.
>2. Otherwise, the Sorting hat discerns which qualities are most admired
>by the sortee; and I mean admired, and not possessed. Wormtail admired
>courage, but appeared to lack it. Snape had plenty of courage, but
>considered acquiring power to be much more important. Hermione has a
>ton of brains, but she freely confesses that brains are not the most
>important thing (and she wanted to be in Gryffindor).
I'm sure I recall her saying the hat wasn't going to place her in
Gryffindor... but I don't remember her saying she actually *requested*
it... iirc the hat itself decided she would be best placed in the
alternate house!
Welshdog
--
Australian Opinion http://australianopinion.com
News and views... for people like youse!!
Welsh Dog
>> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
>> news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
<snip>
>.... One thing in common between between them was
>that they were all subject to some amount of abuse during their
>childhood, Snape from his father, Harry from his Uncle and Aunt, and
>Tom from his orphanage mates.
This isn't right at all. There is *no* evidence at all that Tom was
subject to any abuse whatsoever from either his mates or Mrs Cole and
the others in charge of the orphanage.
We were told the place would have been 'grim' but otherwise the
children were all as well cared for as they could be.
We *do* know however that Tom was the cause of much abuse suffered by
the other orphans.
(Mrs Cole) ..... said in a sudden rush, "He
scares the other children."
"You mean he is a bully?" asked Dumbledore.
"I think he must be," said Mrs. Cole, frowning slightly,
"but it's very hard to catch him at it. There have been
incidents. . . . Nasty things ..."
Welsh Dog
>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:44:28 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Petunia gave Harry only as much "love" as the orphanage keepers gave to
>>Tom, i.e., none. She took him in out of a sense of duty and mostly
>>because of fear of Dumbledore. And once Dumbledore decided something,
>>there is not much that a couple of Muggles can do to say no to him.
>She gave him love, but the more accidental magic popped up, the more
>her old jealousies arose, and the more hate filled she became.
Love? I think not. I'd suggest she took him in out of concern for what
the neighbours might think if she turned her orphan nephew over to
state care and only did a much as was necessary to keep him alive.
>Even DD points out that she did agree to take Harry in, fully aware of
>all that meant. There was love at first, but jealousy and image
>obsession soon squashed that one.
DD says...
"However miserable he has been here, however
unwelcome, however badly treated, you have at least,
grudgingly, allowed him houseroom."
and also.....
"You have never treated Harry as a son. He has known
nothing but neglect and often cruelty at your hands. The
best that can be said is that he has at least escaped the
appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate
boy sitting between you."
There is nothing whatsoever in those statements to suggest any form of
affection for Harry whatsoever..
Welsh Dog
<de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>On 2008-06-14 10:20:20 -0400, Toon <to...@toon.com> said:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:27:09 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
>> <de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Most of the world's politicians would be Slytherins, as would
>>> most of the successful CEOs in business.
>>
>> Oh good comparison. Use evil people to prove not all Slytherins are
>> evil.
>
>I think it an apt comparison. Politicians aren't necessarily
>evil. They are motivated by self interest. Evil? It depends
>on what side you're on. My political side isn't evil, but
>yours is and vice versa. :-)
Ok... I'll bet most lawyers would be Slytherins! :D
Welsh Dog
<karenth...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I've seen many assumptions about his mother but she married a muggle
>and had a muggles child, that sort of throws a monkey wrench in the
>theory that she hated muggles.
Not really. I'd have thought her muggle husband would have been the
cause of much resentment and dislike of Muggles! She might well have
been 'sympathetic' towards them before he began to treat her badly.
Yes she picked a "bad 'un" but her experiences may well have confirmed
all the negative stereotypes and prejudice muggles carry in magic
society and those she passed on to her sin who would have seen the
worst side of muggle behaviour at first hand,
<snip>
>I don't see that at 11 he was thinking I want to kill all muggles and
>muggleborn - I see it as if I can get away from these people that
>treated me badly I can live in a place I'm accepted. But then when he
>gets to Hogwarts he has boys like James/Sirius who throw another
>monkey wrench into his ideas of a better life. Not only are they
>considered the good guys but he, Severus is considered and oddball and
>a dark arts lover.
On the other hand Sirius confirmed that by the time her arrived in
Hogwarts Severus already knew a great many curses. Where did he learn
them? From his mother? From her books?
<snip>
> Nobody ever uses this argument to say HAY, if it was such a bad
>house why didn't Dumbledore remove it? Well I guess I just did. But
>still, the house was allowed to stay at Hogwarts, JKR says not all
>Slytherins are bad...so...what is the problem with Severus being a
>Slytherin?
Horace was head of Slytherin... he wasn't 'bad' as far as we know!
>I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable. JKR
>uses a comment in an interview to say, Harry is not perfect like
>Snape...I found that a poor excuse and a bad choice all together for
>her to do and make Harry do - it came across almost like a joke and
>that the status of using a evil spell became easy lighthearted laughs
>and okay for the good characters to do because they are 'good
>characters'; him using Bellatrix teaching him about unforgiveables in
>a very flippant manner really ruined it for me.
Harry was under a tremendous amount of stress to begin with and if
that wasn't enough of an excuse he saw someone doing something gross
to someone who was almost as much a mother figure to him as Molly!!
If you can't attack in defence of your own when *can* you attack??
Besides... they were at war, and in war things are done by both sides
that they'd possibly prefer not to do in 'peacetime'.
>We the readers were all taught that these spells like AK and the
>torture curse are the worst things you can do. But look at it this
>way. When Molly Weasley AK'ed Bellatrix - did we see Molly utter the
>words? Did we read the AK curse come from her lips in actual text? Was
>it there?
I don't think it matters. We know it was a 'killing curse', we know
they were all fighting not only to save themselves but to save the
world. Why does it matter?
<snip>
>I personally still haven't figured out what greater good Dumbledore
>was really serving so I'm more inclined to stay on Snape's side and
>accept that he was/is a Slytherin since not all Slytherins are bad.
Severus was not a 'nice' person in any way and his character was used
to demonstrate that good can come even from evil... in much the same
way that Judas grew up to betray Jesus. Both of these characters were
actors in a far larger game that they were unaware of and therefore
unable to control. In both cases, the 'Greater Good' was the temporary
defeat of evil.
John VanSickle
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:29:33 -0400, John VanSickle
> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> BubblyBabs wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Methinks the Sorting Hat operates as follows:
>
>> 1. If the sortee desperately wants to be in a particular house, there
>> they go.
>
> We only know that is a possibility from the example of one unique
> entity (and that one was hardly typical... after all he carried two
> souls) and there hasn't been confirmation anywhere else in the books
> tmk.
Snape wanted to be in Slytherin.
James wanted to be in Gryffindor.
Hermione thought that Gryffindor was the best.
Malfoy wanted to be in Slytherin.
The example you cite was unique only in that Harry was the first sortee
with a bit of another person's soul in him. He was most certainly NOT
the first person who desperately did not want to be in a particular
house. Both Harry and Sirius wanted to be OUT of Slytherin, on account
of the people they knew who were headed there.
>> 2. Otherwise, the Sorting hat discerns which qualities are most admired
>> by the sortee; and I mean admired, and not possessed. Wormtail admired
>> courage, but appeared to lack it. Snape had plenty of courage, but
>> considered acquiring power to be much more important. Hermione has a
>> ton of brains, but she freely confesses that brains are not the most
>> important thing (and she wanted to be in Gryffindor).
>
> I'm sure I recall her saying the hat wasn't going to place her in
> Gryffindor... but I don't remember her saying she actually *requested*
> it... iirc the hat itself decided she would be best placed in the
> alternate house!
She said, the first time she was on the train, that Gryffindor was the
best, but that Ravenclaw wouldn't be so bad.
Regards,
John
John VanSickle
>> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias toward
>> being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor? He
>> was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story, you
>> can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
>
> Slytherin. We get the fact that he doesn't like muggles but one would
> have to ask the question why?
>
> I've seen many assumptions about his mother but she married a muggle
> and had a muggles child, that sort of throws a monkey wrench in the
> on other messages/boards/grouns that she was in Slytherin but I do not
> remember it ever being said what house she was in. I would not jump to
> the conclusion she was a Slytherin.
>
> One thing you have to think about is, why would Severus dislike
> muggles being that he is half a muggle. For me it is easy to assume
> from what Petunia says in DH about him: 'I know who you are, You're
> that Snape boy! They live down Spinner's end by the river,'
I would venture to say that Snape's dislike for Muggles begins much
closer than home. The only memory of his father that we have is one of
abuse. He hated Muggles because the Muggle he knew best had caused him
a cartload of misery.
I think his leaning towards Slytherin has its root here as well. As his
way of dealing with abuse, he had ideas about reversing the balance of
power between himself and his father. He couldn't use this magic; his
mother, who suffered as much as he did, if not more, probably stopped
him (in the same way that a lot of real-world battered wives stop the
police who come to arrest their abusive husbands). So at an early age,
Snape, like Riddle, became enamored with power.
> Getting attacked 2 on one and not backing down is what exactly? We see
> in the Worst Memory scene that James and Sirius attacked Snape for no
> reason.
Well, no immediate reason; but we know that Snape and Company returned
the favor whenever the opportunity presented itself.
> Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
> suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
> pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
> have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
> it to.
What is going on here is that people project their attitudes onto other
people. This is why good people trust when they shouldn't, and why bad
people distrust when they shouldn't.
> I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable. JKR
> uses a comment in an interview to say, Harry is not perfect like
> Snape...I found that a poor excuse and a bad choice all together for
> her to do and make Harry do - it came across almost like a joke and
> that the status of using a evil spell became easy lighthearted laughs
> and okay for the good characters to do because they are 'good
> characters'; him using Bellatrix teaching him about unforgiveables in
> a very flippant manner really ruined it for me.
>
> We the readers were all taught that these spells like AK and the
> torture curse are the worst things you can do. But look at it this
> way. When Molly Weasley AK'ed Bellatrix - did we see Molly utter the
> words? Did we read the AK curse come from her lips in actual text? Was
> it there?
>
> NO. To me this is clear evidence that we can allow the good characters
> to do the evil spells as long as it is for good reasons. BUT, we sorta
> hide it and do not show the actual act. Molly's killing of Bellatrix
> is hidden, we do not really know what spell she used but we assume by
> what we read that there could only be one spell she used.
There is certainly more than one lethal spell in the HP universe. The
one Molly used was probably not the AK, but as angry as she was at the
time, the spell probably had a magnified effect. Personally, I don't
think that "momma bear protecting her cubs" moment was needful to the
story...
Regards,
John
Deevo
news:pvadnffy7-67ccnV...@earthlink.com...
<snip>
>> NO. To me this is clear evidence that we can allow the good characters
>> to do the evil spells as long as it is for good reasons. BUT, we sorta
>> hide it and do not show the actual act. Molly's killing of Bellatrix
>> is hidden, we do not really know what spell she used but we assume by
>> what we read that there could only be one spell she used.
>
> There is certainly more than one lethal spell in the HP universe. The one
> Molly used was probably not the AK, but as angry as she was at the time,
> the spell probably had a magnified effect. Personally, I don't think that
> "momma bear protecting her cubs" moment was needful to the story...
Perhaps not, but it was something of a satisfying moment in the story.
Personally I would have liked to have seen Neville be the one who took her
out.
Toon
wrote:
As I said, they lost it once the accidental magic began.
Toon
<de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>On 2008-06-14 10:20:20 -0400, Toon <to...@toon.com> said:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:27:09 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
>> <de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Most of the world's politicians would be Slytherins, as would
>>> most of the successful CEOs in business.
>>
>> Oh good comparison. Use evil people to prove not all Slytherins are
>> evil.
>
>I think it an apt comparison. Politicians aren't necessarily
>evil.
No, but the current batch are.
Toon
Of course. He knew nothing about it. In fact, he knew Hufflepuff
because the Fat Friar greeted the first years and said "hope to see
you in Hufflepuff" and Hagrid was filling him in on Slytherin.
Gryffendore and Ravenclaw were quite unknowns. He could have no
problem with Ravenclaws (one of whom he crushed on, one of whom became
his friend.)
Toon
wrote:
>
>We only know that is a possibility from the example of one unique
>entity (and that one was hardly typical... after all he carried two
>souls) and there hasn't been confirmation anywhere else in the books
>tmk.
DD basically confirms it when discussing it with Harry, reminding him
of how powerful our choices can be.
Toon
wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:53:57 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
Unforunately, though, we know little of his life there, and he could
have been bullied at first, then took revenge to the extremes. And
believe me, the Nuns would care less about half the things that could
be done to him, Boys will be boys. Everybody's picked on. Oh that's
really nothing.
Or, it could have been an imagined slight, like he got picked last for
a team. But he took it personally.
Toon
wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 04:41:09 -0700 (PDT), KarentheUnicorn
><karenth...@msn.com> wrote:
>Horace was head of Slytherin... he wasn't 'bad' as far as we know!
Well, his Slug Club was elititism. And that's not good. Especially
since it was an excuse to curry favor with future movers and shakers
so he could get freebies and favors done for him later in life. Very
self serving, and the networking he fostered made his members quite
self serving.
>If you can't attack in defence of your own when *can* you attack??
It's not who but how. Someone mugs your mom, and you cut off his
limbs and privates, and even his ears. Some say that's going to far.
>Besides... they were at war, and in war things are done by both sides
>that they'd possibly prefer not to do in 'peacetime'.
Not everybody agrees that's right. some believe in All's fair in love
and war. Sicne it's war, it's all right to hurt the enemy for the
greater good. Others see that as abuse of power, at times becoming
the enemy, and just plain old wrong.
>I don't think it matters. We know it was a 'killing curse', we know
>they were all fighting not only to save themselves but to save the
>world. Why does it matter?
Because she killed a person she could otherwise have subdued. Saving
people is not always justification for killing. A mom drowned her
little kids, thus saving them from a life of sin, which would keep
them out of Heaven. She was not right or justified in her murders.
Murder is not always the answer. The Masterind behind 9/11 wants to
be killed so he can be a martyr. Killing him will only benefit the
world (thus saving it a bit). But it's wrong, because it gives him
what he wants.
>Severus was not a 'nice' person in any way and his character was used
>to demonstrate that good can come even from evil... in much the same
>way that Judas grew up to betray Jesus.
Did he, or jesus ask him to be his patsy?
Toon
<evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>There is certainly more than one lethal spell in the HP universe. The
>one Molly used was probably not the AK, but as angry as she was at the
>time, the spell probably had a magnified effect. Personally, I don't
>think that "momma bear protecting her cubs" moment was needful to the
>story...
I was Neville's right to kill her.
BriD
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:52:29 +1000, Welsh Dog <welsh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:53:57 +0530, santosh <santosh....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >>Deevo wrote:
> >>> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fractalfairydot...@ng.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nuns? Where does it say Nuns?
BriD
Welsh Dog
<evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Welsh Dog wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:29:33 -0400, John VanSickle
>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> BubblyBabs wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Methinks the Sorting Hat operates as follows:
>>> 1. If the sortee desperately wants to be in a particular house, there
>>> they go.
>> We only know that is a possibility from the example of one unique
>> entity (and that one was hardly typical... after all he carried two
>> souls) and there hasn't been confirmation anywhere else in the books
>> tmk.
>Snape wanted to be in Slytherin.
>James wanted to be in Gryffindor.
>Hermione thought that Gryffindor was the best.
>Malfoy wanted to be in Slytherin.
>The example you cite was unique only in that Harry was the first sortee
>with a bit of another person's soul in him. He was most certainly NOT
>the first person who desperately did not want to be in a particular
>house. Both Harry and Sirius wanted to be OUT of Slytherin, on account
>of the people they knew who were headed there.
I think you're wrong. The others may well have wanted to go to
Gryffindor but there is no evidence to assume the hat took their
desires into account! The *only* person we know who was able to
influence the hat is Harry.
Hermione said (in a conversation with Terry Boot wasn't it?) that the
hat considered putting her in Ravenclaw but she didn't say that *she*
wanted to go to Gryffindor... or that she influenced the decision...
only that *the hat* decided she should be in Gryffindor.
For the others, we only know that the hats decision coincided with
their own wishes which may, or may not, have been serendipitous for
them..
>>> 2. Otherwise, the Sorting hat discerns which qualities are most admired
>>> by the sortee; and I mean admired, and not possessed. Wormtail admired
>>> courage, but appeared to lack it. Snape had plenty of courage, but
>>> considered acquiring power to be much more important. Hermione has a
>>> ton of brains, but she freely confesses that brains are not the most
>>> important thing (and she wanted to be in Gryffindor).
>> I'm sure I recall her saying the hat wasn't going to place her in
>> Gryffindor... but I don't remember her saying she actually *requested*
>> it... iirc the hat itself decided she would be best placed in the
>> alternate house!
>She said, the first time she was on the train, that Gryffindor was the
>best, but that Ravenclaw wouldn't be so bad.
She did indeed:
"Do either of you know what house you'll be in?
I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Gryffindor,
it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself
was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad....
But where does it say she *asked* the hat to be put in Gryffindor and
it complied with the request?? All I could find was:
'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in
Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly,
'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end.
Hardly conclusive evidence that she either *asked* or had the request
granted?
Welsh Dog
>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:01:57 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:18:31 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:44:28 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
<snip>
>>DD says...
>> "However miserable he has been here, however
>> unwelcome, however badly treated, you have at least,
>> grudgingly, allowed him houseroom."
>>and also.....
>> "You have never treated Harry as a son. He has known
>> nothing but neglect and often cruelty at your hands. The
>> best that can be said is that he has at least escaped the
>> appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate
>> boy sitting between you."
>>There is nothing whatsoever in those statements to suggest any form of
>>affection for Harry whatsoever..
>As I said, they lost it once the accidental magic began.
Fair enough... can you quote some references to support the opinion?
Welsh Dog
Yet DD makes no mention of the hat being influenced by choices. And it
is made exceedingly clear by Harry that his choice wasn't the norm
since he felt he had to whisper the possibility it to little Severus
as he boarded the train for the first time.
But if it matter to you, you'll be able to choose
Gryffindor over Slytherin. The Sorting Hat takes
your choice into account.” “Really?”
“It did for me,” said Harry.
Harry seems to be saying two things here, both that the hat *will* let
you choose... and that it *might*. However, he fails to remember that
he was a 'special case' that tests a rule.
More important than Harry's comment is the simple fact that if it
*had* been something *all* newbies could do then it would be common
knowledge amongst siblings if no others! Coiln Creevey was by no means
certain his little brother would he placed in Gryffindor!!
And can you honestly suggest that for all their weirdness Bill,
Charlie, Percy, Fred or George might not have thought it appropriate
to suggest that Ron might *ask* to be placed in Gryffindor with all
his brothers?? I can't imagine for a second it wouldn't have been
discussed around the table at least once.
If choice was not only a possibility but a norm as you suggest,
wouldn't Molly have ensured her daughter chose the same house as her
siblings... yet there was no mention of her being told to ask of that
she had asked to be put in Gryffindor.
Of course the film version messes with our minds in that Molly
congratulates Ginny which she would only have had to do if there was a
chance of being sent to another house but that we can discount since
it's not a part of the published texts.
Welsh Dog
wrote:
>On Jun 15, 2:46 pm, Toon <t...@toon.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:52:29 +1000, Welsh Dog <welsh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
<snip>
>> >We *do* know however that Tom was the cause of much abuse suffered by
>> >the other orphans.
>> > (Mrs Cole) ..... said in a sudden rush, "He
>> > scares the other children."
>> > "You mean he is a bully?" asked Dumbledore.
>> > "I think he must be," said Mrs. Cole, frowning slightly,
>> > "but it's very hard to catch him at it. There have been
>> > incidents. . . . Nasty things ..."
>> Unforunately, though, we know little of his life there, and he could
>> have been bullied at first, then took revenge to the extremes. And
>> believe me, the Nuns would care less about half the things that could
>> be done to him, Boys will be boys. Everybody's picked on. Oh that's
>> really nothing.
>> Or, it could have been an imagined slight, like he got picked last for
>> a team. But he took it personally
>Nuns? Where does it say Nuns?
"Good afternoon. I have an appointment with a
Mrs. Cole, who, I believe, is the matron here?"
I doubt a nun would be called Mrs Cole?? :D
Lyle Francis Delp
The hat can read what's in her head. Perhaps, just perhaps,
it read her desire, which she had already expressed to
Harry and Ron, to be in Gryffindor.
--
Lyle Francis Delp
"Yeah, Lyle Francis Delp! Ya wanna make sumthin outtavit?"
Welsh Dog
<de...@nystpen.gov> wrote:
>On 2008-06-15 18:42:17 -0400, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com> said:
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:51:57 -0400, John VanSickle
>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Welsh Dog wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:29:33 -0400, John VanSickle
>>>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> BubblyBabs wrote:
<snip>
>>> best, but that Ravenclaw wouldn't be so bad.
>> She did indeed:
>>
>> "Do either of you know what house you'll be in?
>> I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Gryffindor,
>> it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself
>> was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad....
>> But where does it say she *asked* the hat to be put in Gryffindor and
>> it complied with the request?? All I could find was:
>> 'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in
>> Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly,
>> 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end.
>> Hardly conclusive evidence that she either *asked* or had the request
>> granted?
>The hat can read what's in her head. Perhaps, just perhaps,
>it read her desire, which she had already expressed to
>Harry and Ron, to be in Gryffindor.
No doubt it read her mind, that's how it makes it's decisions, however
I'm yet to be convinced that process could be considered in any way to
equate with the direct conscious request that Harry made!
Toon
wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:33:44 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:01:57 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>>On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:18:31 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:44:28 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>DD says...
>>> "However miserable he has been here, however
>>> unwelcome, however badly treated, you have at least,
>>> grudgingly, allowed him houseroom."
>
>>>and also.....
>>> "You have never treated Harry as a son. He has known
>>> nothing but neglect and often cruelty at your hands. The
>>> best that can be said is that he has at least escaped the
>>> appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate
>>> boy sitting between you."
>
>>>There is nothing whatsoever in those statements to suggest any form of
>>>affection for Harry whatsoever..
>
>>As I said, they lost it once the accidental magic began.
>
>Fair enough... can you quote some references to support the opinion?
>
>Welshdog
Well, Petunia did take Harry in, fully aware of what he was, as she
herself admits in PS that there's no way he couldn't be a wizard. In
OOP, she (after a slight reminder from DD) won't let Harry be thrown
out, because she knows what's at stake, and Harry has said Voldemrot
was back. And even Petunia knows enough that he is very bad news and
a danger to Harry's life. But she agreed to take in Harry till
adulthood. Even though now Demntors have attacked her son. HBP shows
when DD mentions 17, she point out it's one more year. Here's a
chance to be free of Harry a year earlier, and can blame DD, but she
instinctively mentions the extra year that's needed to keep him
protected. In DH, she wants to tell him how she knows what he's about
to face (as indicated by JK), but can't get past her decades long
hatred/jealousies. That's love, though barely. But funny thing about
love. You don't need to do a lot to feel it, or show it.
And what was that scream when she found Harry? Baby on doorstep? Or
did she read the letter first, and scream at the knowledge her sister
was dead?
And Vernon, in PS at the beginning, seems very worried that the
Potters everyone is talking about are his in-laws, and debates asking
Petunia because he knows show much she hates her sister. Not that he
had a problem with them, much. He even knows they're wizards, as he
references their kind.
That's love, a she was worried about his in-laws, and the fact his
nephew might now be an orphan. Yes, he tried to rationalize it's
other Potters, but he knew deep down it was his family.
So, what could cause these two to change from general concern to
outright abuse? Magic. We know Vernon especially is big on public
image. Always worried about how he's viewed. Wanting Harry in his
bedroom in COS when he guests are over. And we know Harry has done
accidental magic throughout his life. Logic would dictate that the
occasional magic outbreak was quite noticeable to Muggles, and that
threatened their image.
It's also long been a theory the abuse was really about stamping out
the magic, and if they knew Harry wasn't magical, they wouldn't mind
him so much.
Toon
wrote:
I'm not sure everybody experiences it. Seems to be only the most
forcefully. Most would happily take whatever. Draco, I'm betting,
was quite forceful and the hat took that into consideration. I don't
think Draco would except any other house, since I'm sure it's a family
house like with the Blacks (OK, we only know Lucius, but still).
>And can you honestly suggest that for all their weirdness Bill,
>Charlie, Percy, Fred or George might not have thought it appropriate
>to suggest that Ron might *ask* to be placed in Gryffindor with all
>his brothers?? I can't imagine for a second it wouldn't have been
>discussed around the table at least once.
I can't believe Ron honestly believed the twins and their Troll
Wrestling. Yet he honestly did. That means, Molly, Arthur, Bill,
Charlie, and Percy never once thought to tell ickle Ronikins how he'd
be sorted. And it seems Harry and Ginny never did either. Apprently,
parents don't discuss these things, short of mentioning they get
sorted. What's normal for us, seems quite the opposite for wizards.
I was told all about school bells and the time between classes so I'd
be prepared. Wizards, OTOH, seem to like letting their kids learn as
they go.
>If choice was not only a possibility but a norm as you suggest,
>wouldn't Molly have ensured her daughter chose the same house as her
>siblings... yet there was no mention of her being told to ask of that
>she had asked to be put in Gryffindor.
I don't think Molly would. Molly would let Ginny go where she
belongs, and be who she is. Sure, she wants Gryffendor, but she won't
force it onto her kids. She didn't want Fred and George wasting their
time on a joke shop, but she never stopped them. And she saw how
successful they were, which is all she really wanted for them) and all
her kids).
It's normal, but not common. Another problem is we don't know the
time it takes to sort. Harry felt it was a while, but was it as long
as he thought? The speed of thought is quite fast, and even
remembering slows it down some. I think Harry might have been a bit
shorter than he thought, and we know they get sorted at various
speeds. Are the fastest because it's that easy to tell, or do they
subconsciously insist on a House?
>Of course the film version messes with our minds in that Molly
>congratulates Ginny which she would only have had to do if there was a
>chance of being sent to another house but that we can discount since
>it's not a part of the published texts.
The film didn't even let the hat touch Draco's head. No way he was
that insistent.
Toon
wrote:
>On Jun 15, 2:46 pm, Toon <t...@toon.com> wrote:
Oopsie, I stereotyped orphanages.
Toon
wrote:
Well, it is possible she wasn't in her habit (not all Nuns wear them),
and her brother works there too and DD just assumed.
But I'm going with stereotyping orphanages.
Welsh Dog
>On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:08:18 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT), BriD <beth...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>On Jun 15, 2:46 pm, Toon <t...@toon.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:52:29 +1000, Welsh Dog <welsh...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
<snip>
>>>Nuns? Where does it say Nuns?
>> "Good afternoon. I have an appointment with a
>> Mrs. Cole, who, I believe, is the matron here?"
>>I doubt a nun would be called Mrs Cole?? :D
>Well, it is possible she wasn't in her habit (not all Nuns wear them),
>and her brother works there too and DD just assumed.
>But I'm going with stereotyping orphanages.
I was thinking more along the lines that, in my experience, Nuns
aren't usually married (well not to mortals anyway) so wouldn't be a
Mrs!!! :D
John VanSickle
Okay, then. Do we have any examples of someone who wanted to be in a
particular house, but was sorted into another?
We have examples, and no counter-examples, and no other evidence.
> But where does it say she *asked* the hat to be put in Gryffindor and
> it complied with the request?? All I could find was:
Since I never claimed that anyone aside from Harry *asked*, and never
claimed that only those who *ask* get sorted where they want to go, this
really isn't important.
It's still quite simple. People who want a particular house go there.
We could even say that this happens even when the sortee wants a house
for the wrong reasons (Pettigrew, and perhaps Cormac as well). Everyone
else gets sorted according to their values system.
Regards,
John
John VanSickle
> It was Neville's right to kill her.
A curse that makes thornbushes grow from inside of her would have been
an interesting way of combining revenge with Herbology.
Regards,
John
Lyle Francis Delp
I think it is. We hear Harry's preference, because Jo wants us
to. It's a significant plot point. We hear the hat in the movie,
because that's what you do in a movie. They have to make
sure we can see and hear what's going on.
In the book, I don't
think anyone but Harry can hear the hat making its decision.
This is supported by the fact that Harry told his friends (in
a later book) that the hat considered putting him in Slytherin.
If they could hear the hat, they would have already known this.
Welsh Dog
<evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Welsh Dog wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:51:57 -0400, John VanSickle
>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Welsh Dog wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:29:33 -0400, John VanSickle
>>>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> BubblyBabs wrote:
<snip>
>claimed that only those who *ask* get sorted where they want to go, this
>really isn't important.
Of course it's important! The whole point is that the only example we
have of 'choice' is of someone who *doesn't* want to be in a
particular house.
>It's still quite simple. People who want a particular house go there.
>We could even say that this happens even when the sortee wants a house
>for the wrong reasons (Pettigrew, and perhaps Cormac as well). Everyone
>else gets sorted according to their values system.
We don't really have evidence of that. Only, as said above, that one
person was able to ask *not* to be placed in a house... not the
alternative.. and that the request was granted.
And, let's note, the *major* point that is constantly overlooked is
the courage it took for Harry in that highly stressful situation to
question the hat's decision!!
Perhaps it was Harry's courage in questioning the hat's original
choice that was the deciding factor and not Harry's request that he
not be placed in Slytherin.
scenario_dave
wrote:
> I'm sure this has been brought up in the past but thought I'd bring it up
> just in case...
>
> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias toward
> being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor? He
> was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story, you
> can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
>
> you'd think she would have tried to prepare himfor another house or
> something.... Wonder if she told him not to let anyone know his father was
> a muggle....
>
> Babs
What do we know about the sorting hat.
It is a very old and very powerful magical item. It lives in DD
office. It can think for itself to some extent.
I think the Sorting Hat has several purposes.
1) Sort people into houses that fit their personalities.
2) Get about the same number of people in each house.
3) Protect Hogworths
The hat can tell what's going on outside of school so a lot of the
student may be presorted. So, there are 100 new students. We want
about 25 for each house. Let's see, Draco Malfoy, his father was a
slythein, he shares his fathers values, he fits. The hat double checks
at the last minute.
Maybe there are too many of one house this year and not enough of
another, students in Harry's case will usually go to the house that
needs people.
Most students and their parents have a very good idea which house
they'll be in.
There's always a few that could go into different houses. If someone
really wants a particular house, and the hat feels they would fit into
that house, then they should go into the house if there's room.
Harry didn't exactly choose, he could have gone either way and the hat
took his desires into account. If Hermione was still brilliant but an
umbitious coward, the hat would not have cared which house she wanted
to go into, it would have chosen for her.
If you meet the minimum requirments for more than one school, you may
get to choose, if there is room.
Severus could have gone into three different houses. His preference
may have mattered or maybe there weren't a lot of slytherines that
year.
scenario_dave
I'm not sure about that. Maybe Pettigrew had the potential to be
brave, but his choices led him to another path.
I think you need to meet some kind of minimum requirement to get in.
>
> Regards,
> John- Hide quoted text -
Welsh Dog
<scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jun 12, 3:13 am, "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fractalfairydot...@ng.com>
>wrote:
<snip>
>What do we know about the sorting hat.
<snip>
>There's always a few that could go into different houses.
No doubt why Sirius got into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin.
>If someone
>really wants a particular house, and the hat feels they would fit into
>that house, then they should go into the house if there's room.
>Harry didn't exactly choose, he could have gone either way and the hat
>took his desires into account.
Tho Harry didn't choose to go into a house... he asked *not* to go
into one.
> If Hermione was still brilliant but an
>umbitious coward, the hat would not have cared which house she wanted
>to go into, it would have chosen for her.
Are you basing that on the bizarre choice of a clearly cowardly
Wormtail going into Gryffindor??
By the way, has anyone got a link to a thread where this was
discussed?? I can see nothing in the books to indicate why he wasn't
dumped in Hufflepuff. He is hardly 'noble, chivalrous and/or brave.
>If you meet the minimum requirments for more than one school, you may
>get to choose, if there is room.
>Severus could have gone into three different houses. His preference
>may have mattered or maybe there weren't a lot of slytherines that
>year.
Welshdog
BubblyBabs
"scenario_dave" <scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d3bc4e80-7919-4e94...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
3) Protect Hogworths
======
Whew, that's depressing...
Babs
BubblyBabs
"John VanSickle" <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pvadnffy7-67ccnV...@earthlink.com...
> KarentheUnicorn wrote:
>>> Do you suppose that if Severus had not been brought up with the bias
>>> toward
>>> being a Slytherin that the sorting hat may have made him a Gryffindor?
>>> He
>>> was certainly brave enough to be one... But, as was told in the story,
>>> you
>>> can choose to be in a house if you really want it....
>>
>> Slytherin. We get the fact that he doesn't like muggles but one would
>> have to ask the question why?
>>
>> I've seen many assumptions about his mother but she married a muggle
>> and had a muggles child, that sort of throws a monkey wrench in the
>> theory that she hated muggles. I have also seen the statement before
>> on other messages/boards/grouns that she was in Slytherin but I do not
>> remember it ever being said what house she was in. I would not jump to
>> the conclusion she was a Slytherin.
>>
>> One thing you have to think about is, why would Severus dislike
>> muggles being that he is half a muggle. For me it is easy to assume
>> from what Petunia says in DH about him: 'I know who you are, You're
>> that Snape boy! They live down Spinner's end by the river,'
>
> I would venture to say that Snape's dislike for Muggles begins much closer
> than home. The only memory of his father that we have is one of abuse.
> He hated Muggles because the Muggle he knew best had caused him a cartload
> of misery.
>
> I think his leaning towards Slytherin has its root here as well. As his
> way of dealing with abuse, he had ideas about reversing the balance of
> power between himself and his father. He couldn't use this magic; his
> mother, who suffered as much as he did, if not more, probably stopped him
> (in the same way that a lot of real-world battered wives stop the police
> who come to arrest their abusive husbands). So at an early age, Snape,
> like Riddle, became enamored with power.
>
>> Getting attacked 2 on one and not backing down is what exactly? We see
>> in the Worst Memory scene that James and Sirius attacked Snape for no
>> reason.
>
> Well, no immediate reason; but we know that Snape and Company returned the
> favor whenever the opportunity presented itself.
>
>> Snape was eventually head of Slytherin, it was HIS house. So to
>> suggest something like...well...you're good enough to be a Gryffindor
>> pretty much tells me how the goodie characters actually think. They
>> have there own prejudices they gloss over and we the fans gloss over
>> it to.
>
> What is going on here is that people project their attitudes onto other
> people. This is why good people trust when they shouldn't, and why bad
> people distrust when they shouldn't.
>
>> I found him using the torture curse in book 7 very unforgiveable. JKR
>> uses a comment in an interview to say, Harry is not perfect like
>> Snape...I found that a poor excuse and a bad choice all together for
>> her to do and make Harry do - it came across almost like a joke and
>> that the status of using a evil spell became easy lighthearted laughs
>> and okay for the good characters to do because they are 'good
>> characters'; him using Bellatrix teaching him about unforgiveables in
>> a very flippant manner really ruined it for me.
>>
>> We the readers were all taught that these spells like AK and the
>> torture curse are the worst things you can do. But look at it this
>> way. When Molly Weasley AK'ed Bellatrix - did we see Molly utter the
>> words? Did we read the AK curse come from her lips in actual text? Was
>> it there?
>>
>> NO. To me this is clear evidence that we can allow the good characters
>> to do the evil spells as long as it is for good reasons. BUT, we sorta
>> hide it and do not show the actual act. Molly's killing of Bellatrix
>> is hidden, we do not really know what spell she used but we assume by
>> what we read that there could only be one spell she used.
>
> There is certainly more than one lethal spell in the HP universe. The one
> Molly used was probably not the AK, but as angry as she was at the time,
> the spell probably had a magnified effect. Personally, I don't think that
> "momma bear protecting her cubs" moment was needful to the story...
>
> John
Yeah, I *DID NOT* like Molly killing, it seemed so unlike her... Yeah yeah
yeah, "you won't touch any of our children again" yeah yeah yeah... I
cringed when I read that part....
Babs
BubblyBabs
"Welsh Dog" <wels...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p1b954pv5s64kaj8s...@4ax.com...>>> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
>>> news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>.... One thing in common between between them was
>>that they were all subject to some amount of abuse during their
>>childhood, Snape from his father, Harry from his Uncle and Aunt, and
>>Tom from his orphanage mates.
>
> This isn't right at all. There is *no* evidence at all that Tom was
> subject to any abuse whatsoever from either his mates or Mrs Cole and
> the others in charge of the orphanage.
>
> We were told the place would have been 'grim' but otherwise the
> children were all as well cared for as they could be.
>
> the other orphans.
>
> (Mrs Cole) ..... said in a sudden rush, "He
> scares the other children."
> "You mean he is a bully?" asked Dumbledore.
> "I think he must be," said Mrs. Cole, frowning slightly,
> "but it's very hard to catch him at it. There have been
> incidents. . . . Nasty things ..."
>
Having lived in Childrens Homes and such, I can state that children are very
cruel to each other (more so than at school in these places) but they pack
together and can become very protective of one another as well - even the
long time losers... However, we always got someone who "didn't fit in" and
was deemed dangerous and therefore shut out of things, they were left
alone... It was better that way...
Babs
Toon
wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:50:14 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
How about the fact that there's no reason for Harry to get special
treatment over anyone else. If the hat listens to Harry's desires,
why wouldn't it listen to anybody else's.
Toon
wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:55:59 -0400, John VanSickle
><evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Welsh Dog wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:51:57 -0400, John VanSickle
>>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Welsh Dog wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:29:33 -0400, John VanSickle
>>>>> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> BubblyBabs wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>Since I never claimed that anyone aside from Harry *asked*, and never
>>claimed that only those who *ask* get sorted where they want to go, this
>>really isn't important.
>
>Of course it's important! The whole point is that the only example we
>have of 'choice' is of someone who *doesn't* want to be in a
>particular house.
But we have no examples of anyone wanting to go to a particular house.
What we do have is an example of someone's desires influencing the
hat, and no reason to believe the hat gives out special requests
randomly. it listened to Harry. There's no reason it wouldn't listen
to anybody else.
>And, let's note, the *major* point that is constantly overlooked is
>the courage it took for Harry in that highly stressful situation to
>question the hat's decision!!
I always bring that up. I still say the hat tested him. It kept
pushing Slytherin as a place to become great. It appealed to his
ambitions, which Harry didn't cave in to. Instead, he showed courage
by demanding any house but. Thus proving he is more courageous than
ambitious. So better be Gryffendor indeed.
Toon
<scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>2) Get about the same number of people in each house.
Says who?
Toon
wrote:
>By the way, has anyone got a link to a thread where this was
>discussed?? I can see nothing in the books to indicate why he wasn't
>dumped in Hufflepuff. He is hardly 'noble, chivalrous and/or brave.
Isn't he? We know very little about Peter, and most of that is second
hand info. And people do change. We do now Peter befriended a
werewolf. Even if his desire to belong outweighed his fear. That is
still a brave thing to do. I can't imagine werewolf sympathizers get
treated much better than the werewolves themselves do.
Toon
Worked for Tommy. Oh wait.
Sometimes, that's the worse thing you can do, is deny belonging to
someone. You need balance between group time and alone time to
protect the others.
scenario_dave
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:57:10 -0700 (PDT), scenario_dave
>
>
> >2) Get about the same number of people in each house.
>
> Says who?
There's a competition between houses that's been going on for about a
thousand years. It doesn't make sense to me that you could have a
fair competition wiht 300 people on one side and 25 people on the
other side. The sides need to be roughly the same or it isn't fair.
People, even adults, seem to take this competion seriously. I don't
think a Huffenpuff Mom and Dad would be pleased if they found out that
there were 15 Huffenpuffs in the current class and 35 Ravenclaws.
If you've got 100 students you don't need to have 25 in each but you
don't want to put 10 in one and 40 in another house or it defeats the
purpose of having a competition. 26 and 24 wouldn't matter but 35
and 15 would.
Also, when she describes the dining hall, she says that here are 4
long tables, not three long tables and a shorter one. All of the
descriptions of the dining hall implied that the four tables were all
about the same.
This wouldn't be all that hard to accomplish. Most of the students
are presorted into houses. A fair amount of the students are Muggle
born and don't really have much of a preference. If a muggle born
students was partway between Ravenclaw and Slitherine and didn't
express a preference, the hat would put them into the House that
needed someone the most.
Some people might fit one house better than anohter but if they really
wanted to go into anohter house, they met the minimum requrerments and
the other house was short a few kids they might end oup going into the
second best house.
scenario_dave
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:41:55 +1000, Welsh Dog <welsh...@gmail.com>
I think that Peter was kind of like Neville . Peter might have become
brave with the help of loyal friends, but the Maureders treated him
like dirt so he turned to the slytherines who treated him even worse.
By the time we met him he was a broken man.
What would have happened to Neville if he had no real friends and was
treated as bad as Peter?
santosh
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:57:10 -0700 (PDT), scenario_dave
> <scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Jun 12, 3:13 am, "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fractalfairydot...@ng.com>
>>wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>What do we know about the sorting hat.
>
> <snip>
>
>>There's always a few that could go into different houses.
>
> No doubt why Sirius got into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin.
Really? To me it seems that Sirius is the opposite of an ideal
Slytherin. He has no ambition, he is not a calculating type, he is too
reckless and takes too many personal risks, he puts friendship over
self-preservation, and so on.
The only place where he seems to resemble a Slytherin was that he had a
cruel streak. But that too only WRT Snape, who isn't exactly a helpless
victim himself.
<snip>
> Are you basing that on the bizarre choice of a clearly cowardly
> Wormtail going into Gryffindor??
Pettigrew is definitely an anomaly. I suppose even the Sorting Hat might
make rare misjudgements.
<snip>
santosh
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:41:55 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>By the way, has anyone got a link to a thread where this was
>>discussed?? I can see nothing in the books to indicate why he wasn't
>>dumped in Hufflepuff. He is hardly 'noble, chivalrous and/or brave.
>
> Isn't he? We know very little about Peter, and most of that is second
> hand info. And people do change.
And boy he did!
> We do now Peter befriended a
> werewolf.
Perhaps he put up with Remus to remain in friendship with James and
Sirius? And do we know whether, like Padfoot and Prongs,
he "accompanied" Moony during his "transitions"? After all, it would be
ridiculously easy to trample a rat by mistake when the said rat is
surrounded by a Werewolf, a huge dog, and a stag. :-)
I don't think it would've been safe or sensible for Wormtail to have
been anywhere close to the other three during their monthly romps.
> Even if his desire to belong outweighed his fear.
Yes, he overcame fear of Werewolves to befriend James and Sirius, but he
couldn't overcome fear of a Dark Lord to continue being a loyal friend.
> That is
> still a brave thing to do. I can't imagine werewolf sympathizers get
> treated much better than the werewolves themselves do.
The public didn't know about Remus's furry little problem until the
events of PoA.
santosh
Good analysis.
> What would have happened to Neville if he had no real friends and was
> treated as bad as Peter?
Hard to say. No two human being turn out exactly alike, not even
identical twins. Remember that the DEs were doing far more active
recruiting during Voldemort first ascent to power than his second one.
Neville may not have had the opportunity to "turn" into a Pettigrew,
even if were badly treated.
santosh
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:53:57 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>Deevo wrote:
>>> "BubblyBabs" <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote in message
>>> news:K_34k.3515$Xe....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>.... One thing in common between between them was
>>that they were all subject to some amount of abuse during their
>>childhood, Snape from his father, Harry from his Uncle and Aunt, and
>>Tom from his orphanage mates.
>
> This isn't right at all. There is *no* evidence at all that Tom was
> subject to any abuse whatsoever from either his mates or Mrs Cole and
> the others in charge of the orphanage.
No direct evidence, but we can suppose that the other boys were also
cruel to Tom during his early years, or are you saying that he was
practically born with all his hatred and evil already in place?
> We were told the place would have been 'grim' but otherwise the
> children were all as well cared for as they could be.
I'm talking about abuse from other children, not from the orphanage
caretakers.
> We *do* know however that Tom was the cause of much abuse suffered by
> the other orphans.
>
> (Mrs Cole) ..... said in a sudden rush, "He
> scares the other children."
> "You mean he is a bully?" asked Dumbledore.
> "I think he must be," said Mrs. Cole, frowning slightly,
> "but it's very hard to catch him at it. There have been
> incidents. . . . Nasty things ..."
This was later, when he had managed to control his nascent magic and
determined that the only way to avoid hurt was to stand on top of
everyone else.
santosh
Nuns cannot marry. The "Mrs" indicates that she could not have been a
nun.
santosh
> "santosh" <santo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g30cun$2om$2...@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Deevo wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
>>> that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
>>> dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
>>
>> Yes, and even more surprising is the use of Imperio by McGonagall.
>
> Sort of, I really think of the three unforgivables only Crucio has no
> mitigating circumstances attached. The other two IMO can have a
> certain justification under certain situations.
The Imperius is the most subversive and dangerous of the three. A man's
mind is his castle so to speak. :-)
> <snip>
>
>>> If one theme does show through in this series it's the importance of
>>> choices. Personally I feel that each of these three could have
>>> become similar to the other had they made different choices.
>>
>> And yet the hero of the series, Harry, had surprisingly little
>> control of his own life, until he did away with Voldemort.
>
> Yes and no, don't forget at any time Harry could have quite easily
> "gone the
> other way" so to speak. He was in fact given that choice almost from
> the start of book one (by Malfoy) and later in the same book by
> Voldemort himself.
And what chance there is that Dumbledore would ever have allowed that?
scenario_dave
I don't think that Pettigrew is necessarily a mistake. He might have
had the potential to be brave in a different circumstance but he was
treated very badly by the Maraders and then by the slytherines.
What would have happened to Neville if everyone around him treated him
like Snape did and he was constantly in fear for his life?
santosh
<snip>
> I don't think that Pettigrew is necessarily a mistake. He might have
> had the potential to be brave in a different circumstance but he was
> treated very badly by the Maraders and then by the slytherines.
That's one way of explaining him too. Actually I'm glad that Rowling has
created at least *one* bad Gryffindor and *one* good Slytherin. I never
really liked the stereotyping of the Houses. It's a very simplistic
segregation and doesn't reflect reality, even for the Wizarding world.
IMO it was a serious mistake of the Founders. It has obviously created
a great deal of enmity and unhealthy competition, and surprisingly the
House Heads don't seem to do anything about it. In fact they seem to
join in with the general spirit and pit themselves against rival Heads
in an immature manner.
> What would have happened to Neville if everyone around him treated him
> like Snape did and he was constantly in fear for his life?
He'd probably have had the pleasure of providing permanent company to
his parents. :-)
BubblyBabs
"Toon" <to...@toon.com> wrote in message
news:nchf54ppkd831a1f6...@4ax.com...
I'm not sure from your comment if you agree with me or not...
Children don't think like adults... Some people were very loyal to one
another (long timers) but for the most part people swayed from one group
(clique) to another... Yet, in general, once you were there long enough and
an accepted member you could pretty much count on being protected on the
whole... But, at times people strayed and got a butt-kicking then got
sucked back into the group after amends were paid... Others though just
never "belonged", don't know how to explain it... You could have 100+ kids
and they'd be one for the most part and just a few who were loners and
didn't belong...
Babs
BubblyBabs
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:46:12 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:33:44 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:01:57 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>>On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:18:31 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:44:28 +0530, santosh <santo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>DD says...
>>>> "However miserable he has been here, however
>>>> unwelcome, however badly treated, you have at least,
>>>> grudgingly, allowed him houseroom."
>>
>>>>and also.....
>>>> "You have never treated Harry as a son. He has known
>>>> nothing but neglect and often cruelty at your hands. The
>>>> best that can be said is that he has at least escaped the
>>>> appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate
>>>> boy sitting between you."
>>
>>>>There is nothing whatsoever in those statements to suggest any form of
>>>>affection for Harry whatsoever..
>>
>>>As I said, they lost it once the accidental magic began.
>>
>>Fair enough... can you quote some references to support the opinion?
>>
>>Welshdog
>
> Well, Petunia did take Harry in, fully aware of what he was, as she
> herself admits in PS that there's no way he couldn't be a wizard. In
> OOP, she (after a slight reminder from DD) won't let Harry be thrown
> out, because she knows what's at stake, and Harry has said Voldemrot
> was back. And even Petunia knows enough that he is very bad news and
> a danger to Harry's life. But she agreed to take in Harry till
> adulthood. Even though now Demntors have attacked her son. HBP shows
> when DD mentions 17, she point out it's one more year. Here's a
> chance to be free of Harry a year earlier, and can blame DD, but she
> instinctively mentions the extra year that's needed to keep him
> protected. In DH, she wants to tell him how she knows what he's about
> to face (as indicated by JK), but can't get past her decades long
> hatred/jealousies. That's love, though barely. But funny thing about
> love. You don't need to do a lot to feel it, or show it.
>
> And what was that scream when she found Harry? Baby on doorstep? Or
> did she read the letter first, and scream at the knowledge her sister
> was dead?
>
> And Vernon, in PS at the beginning, seems very worried that the
> Potters everyone is talking about are his in-laws, and debates asking
> Petunia because he knows show much she hates her sister. Not that he
> had a problem with them, much. He even knows they're wizards, as he
> references their kind.
>
> That's love, a she was worried about his in-laws, and the fact his
> nephew might now be an orphan. Yes, he tried to rationalize it's
> other Potters, but he knew deep down it was his family.
>
> So, what could cause these two to change from general concern to
> outright abuse? Magic. We know Vernon especially is big on public
> image. Always worried about how he's viewed. Wanting Harry in his
> bedroom in COS when he guests are over. And we know Harry has done
> accidental magic throughout his life. Logic would dictate that the
> occasional magic outbreak was quite noticeable to Muggles, and that
> threatened their image.
>
> It's also long been a theory the abuse was really about stamping out
> the magic, and if they knew Harry wasn't magical, they wouldn't mind
> him so much.
I think you are way wrong on this love thing... Petunia loved her sister,
you don't lose the love you had when younger but she didn't love her sister
when they were older... She didn't know Harry so she had no love for
him...
Babs
BubblyBabs
> I can't believe Ron honestly believed the twins and their Troll
> Wrestling. Yet he honestly did. That means, Molly, Arthur, Bill,
> Charlie, and Percy never once thought to tell ickle Ronikins how he'd
> be sorted. And it seems Harry and Ginny never did either. Apprently,
> parents don't discuss these things, short of mentioning they get
> sorted. What's normal for us, seems quite the opposite for wizards.
>
> I was told all about school bells and the time between classes so I'd
> be prepared. Wizards, OTOH, seem to like letting their kids learn as
> they go.
I can say I wasn't told stuff like that... Things were a surprise for me...
Babs
santosh
<snip>
> Children don't think like adults... Some people were very loyal to
> one another (long timers) but for the most part people swayed from one
> group (clique) to another... Yet, in general, once you were there
> long enough and an accepted member you could pretty much count on
> being protected on the whole... But, at times people strayed and got
> a butt-kicking then got sucked back into the group after amends were
> paid...
Fascinating, rather like chimps, I'd say. :-)
Never understood children.
> Others though just never "belonged", don't know how to
> explain it... You could have 100+ kids and they'd be one for the most
> part and just a few who were loners and didn't belong...
All too familiar.
Toon
<scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The sides need to be roughly the same or it isn't fair.
Life isn't fair. Why should someone be put in the wrong house just to
balance the books?
>People, even adults, seem to take this competion seriously. I don't
>think a Huffenpuff Mom and Dad would be pleased if they found out that
>there were 15 Huffenpuffs in the current class and 35 Ravenclaws.
What about if their precious Icklekins was put in Slytherin to fill up
their ranks?
> If you've got 100 students you don't need to have 25 in each but you
>don't want to put 10 in one and 40 in another house or it defeats the
>purpose of having a competition. 26 and 24 wouldn't matter but 35
>and 15 would.
And there's 7 years to choose from. It all might balance out in the
end.
>Also, when she describes the dining hall, she says that here are 4
>long tables, not three long tables and a shorter one. All of the
>descriptions of the dining hall implied that the four tables were all
>about the same.
So? One can't predict 1000 years into the future. You can't make
anything but the same length tales, based on an average of 7 years
worth of students. And if there's more, gaps, they can use magic to
make it longer.
>
>This wouldn't be all that hard to accomplish. Most of the students
>are presorted into houses.
Are they?
> A fair amount of the students are Muggle
>born and don't really have much of a preference.
Says who? James, Lily, Snape, and Sirius talked about it on the
train, and Lily was muggleborn, and she knew tons from Snape. Who
knows what Muggleborns discuss on the train?
>If a muggle born
>students was partway between Ravenclaw and Slitherine and didn't
>express a preference, the hat would put them into the House that
>needed someone the most.
Says you. I say it'd test tem to find out which House is best. My
views are equally as valued as yours.
Toon
<scenar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I think that Peter was kind of like Neville . Peter might have become
>brave with the help of loyal friends, but the Maureders treated him
>like dirt so he turned to the slytherines who treated him even worse.
>By the time we met him he was a broken man.
They helped him become an animagus, and trusted him with the greatest
secret of all. How much better do you think he could be treated?
He treated them like dirt by selling out to Voldemort.
Toon
wrote:
>Perhaps he put up with Remus to remain in friendship with James and
>Sirius?
He'd still have to have no fear/hatred of weres.
> And do we know whether, like Padfoot and Prongs,
>he "accompanied" Moony during his "transitions"? After all, it would be
>ridiculously easy to trample a rat by mistake when the said rat is
>surrounded by a Werewolf, a huge dog, and a stag. :-)
I'm positive he did, and rode on their backs.
>Yes, he overcame fear of Werewolves to befriend James and Sirius, but he
>couldn't overcome fear of a Dark Lord to continue being a loyal friend.
Very few could. Voldemort 1.0 was quite the terror back in his day.
>The public didn't know about Remus's furry little problem until the
>events of PoA.
But the public would know how werewolf sympathizers are treated. And
peter would be taught it if it was bad.
Toon
wrote:
>The only place where he seems to resemble a Slytherin was that he had a
>cruel streak. But that too only WRT Snape, who isn't exactly a helpless
>victim himself.
Judging by his family, he seems raised on cruelty. If that's all you
know, that's how you act, no matter how much inner goodness you
possesses.
Toon
wrote:
>That's one way of explaining him too. Actually I'm glad that Rowling has
>created at least *one* bad Gryffindor and *one* good Slytherin. I never
>really liked the stereotyping of the Houses. It's a very simplistic
>segregation and doesn't reflect reality, even for the Wizarding world.
>IMO it was a serious mistake of the Founders. It has obviously created
>a great deal of enmity and unhealthy competition, and surprisingly the
>House Heads don't seem to do anything about it. In fact they seem to
>join in with the general spirit and pit themselves against rival Heads
>in an immature manner.
That's all the ever knew. They were in competition for 7 years, they
saw their heads in competition.
Who knows what the Founders wanted. 1000 years later, things change.
Ever watch Survivor? The key to winning is your Alliance. You need
to make and break the right alliance, with the right people, at the
right time to win. No alliance, virtually no chance of winning. Yet,
that was never part of the game. Richard Hatch pioneered it, and
because he won, everybody followed suit, and so the game evolved. The
game further evolved later when a tribe was half young, half old, and
they were at opposite sides on everything. An oldie was sent home,
and the youngins planned to eliminate the rest of the oldies. So, the
Tribes got switched up, and a new part of the game arrived.
Things change. Who knows show different Hogwarts is 1000 years later.
Toon
Sisters have a very strong bond. Petunia never wanted Lily dead.
And she didn't need to know Harry to love him. He was her nephew, and
a madman was out to kill him. So she took him in, fully knowing what
he most certainly would become. That's love. The same point DD tried
making with Harary in OOP. She still took him in, despite the
problems it brought her.
Toon
Some parents prefer the joy of discovery to rule all. We know the
Weasley never discussed the Sorting ceremony. Harry and Ginny never
did, because Albus' train ride out was the first he heard of choice in
sorting. Harry wouldn't have needed to tell him if they were
discussing it since James' first day.
Snape, OTOH, seemed to know an awful lot for a kid, and was probably
told all about it by his Mom.
Deevo
> Deevo wrote:
>
>> "santosh" <santo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:g30cun$2om$2...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>> Deevo wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I do think there are times particularly in OOTP
>>>> that Harry shows some definite dark potential. One thing that did
>>>> dissapoint me though was his almost casual use of Crucio in DH
>>>
>>> Yes, and even more surprising is the use of Imperio by McGonagall.
>>
>> Sort of, I really think of the three unforgivables only Crucio has no
>> mitigating circumstances attached. The other two IMO can have a
>> certain justification under certain situations.
>
> The Imperius is the most subversive and dangerous of the three. A man's
> mind is his castle so to speak. :-)
True enough but, as demostrated by faux Moody during GOF, it needn't be used
for harm.
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> If one theme does show through in this series it's the importance of
>>>> choices. Personally I feel that each of these three could have
>>>> become similar to the other had they made different choices.
>>>
>>> And yet the hero of the series, Harry, had surprisingly little
>>> control of his own life, until he did away with Voldemort.
>>
>> Yes and no, don't forget at any time Harry could have quite easily
>> "gone the
>> other way" so to speak. He was in fact given that choice almost from
>> the start of book one (by Malfoy) and later in the same book by
>> Voldemort himself.
>
> And what chance there is that Dumbledore would ever have allowed that?
Dumbledore would have had nothing to do with it, he wasn't there on the
train and neither was he present at the mirror when Harry was given the
choice to turn. He only arrived later.
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm
Drusilla
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:42:47 -0700, Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:42:25 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> We only know that is a possibility from the example of one unique
>>> entity (and that one was hardly typical... after all he carried two
>>> souls) and there hasn't been confirmation anywhere else in the books
>>> tmk.
>
>> DD basically confirms it when discussing it with Harry, reminding him
>> of how powerful our choices can be.
>
> Yet DD makes no mention of the hat being influenced by choices. And it
> is made exceedingly clear by Harry that his choice wasn't the norm
> since he felt he had to whisper the possibility it to little Severus
> as he boarded the train for the first time.
>
> But if it matter to you, you'll be able to choose
> Gryffindor over Slytherin. The Sorting Hat takes
> your choice into account.” “Really?”
> “It did for me,” said Harry.
>
> Harry seems to be saying two things here, both that the hat *will* let
> you choose... and that it *might*. However, he fails to remember that
> he was a 'special case' that tests a rule.
[snip things I agree with]
The Sorting Hat might read your mind and that determines where it's
going to send you but also, it might have some consideration about what
you want to do because after all, you're going to live with these people
for 7 years and there is no way the Hat will send you to a House whose
members or ideals might make you feel uncomfortable.
--
--
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Drusilla
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:16:53 -0400, John VanSickle
> <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There is certainly more than one lethal spell in the HP universe. The
>> one Molly used was probably not the AK, but as angry as she was at the
>> time, the spell probably had a magnified effect. Personally, I don't
>> think that "momma bear protecting her cubs" moment was needful to the
>> story...
>
> I was Neville's right to kill her.
Or, at least, fight her.
Drusilla
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:11:18 -0500, Drusilla
> <gammanormi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Toon escribió:
>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:03:18 -0500, "BubblyBabs"
>>> <ng_at_fracta...@ng.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good point, the hat may listen to your wishes but if you are dumber than a
>>>> box of rocks it won't put you in Ravenclaw no matter what....
>>> I think it listens if it can't easily decide. Though Harry seemed
>>> more like a test to see if he was more brave or ambitious.
>>>
>>> Remember, Harry didn't want Gryffendor. He just didn't want
>>> Slytherin. Any of the three would have been fine with him.
>> Even Ravenclaw?
>>
>> --
> Of course. He knew nothing about it. In fact, he knew Hufflepuff
> because the Fat Friar greeted the first years and said "hope to see
> you in Hufflepuff" and Hagrid was filling him in on Slytherin.
> Gryffendore and Ravenclaw were quite unknowns. He could have no
> problem with Ravenclaws (one of whom he crushed on, one of whom became
> his friend.)
Yeah, but isn't Ravenclaw the house of the Smart ones?
Drusilla
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:22:01 +1000, Welsh Dog <wels...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 04:41:09 -0700 (PDT), KarentheUnicorn
>> <karenth...@msn.com> wrote:
>> Horace was head of Slytherin... he wasn't 'bad' as far as we know!
>
> Well, his Slug Club was elititism. And that's not good. Especially
> since it was an excuse to curry favor with future movers and shakers
> so he could get freebies and favors done for him later in life. Very
> self serving, and the networking he fostered made his members quite
> self serving.
I'm not so sure if I disagree with this or not. Definitely, I'm not
against a professor that creates a club for students that are different
than the others, unless the difference is, like in this case, to favor
himself.
Now, there is any evidence that Slughorn favored the members of his club
with better grades? Because Harry was getting good grades because he was
cheating. And professors - or mostly of them - all the time help those
they like or those that show interest on my class. Like today, we were
told by a professor something like "I know each of you, I know who you
are and what you do in my class and that will affect your final grades".
And yes, the personal opinion of the professor is at least 30% of the
grade.