J.K. Rowling and Agatha Christie- Connections
Mattie Mayson
names, places, and other connections that can be made between the
characters and general work of Agatha Christie and J.K. Rowling. I
first began to look for similarities between the collective body of
work of each author about a year ago, when I first noticed that the
mystery-story type plot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
reminded me a lot of the way Agatha Christie wrote- and especially in
the way she and J.K. Rowling toss their 'red herrings' around.
In no way do I mean to imply by these lists, quotes, and
connections, that J.K. Rowling purposefully (or even knowingly) copied
or attempted to imitate Agatha Christie's work. I believe it was
Picasso who said "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." I believe
a lot of that intellectual 'stealing' is done subconciously, and that
which we read and enjoy has a large impact upon our future writing, an
impact of which we may often be unaware. Therefore, it is not
surprising, perhaps, to have found many similarities between both
Christie's and Rowling's work.
Something to keep in mind before you read this is the fact that
Christie was one of the most prolific writers ever- she published over
80 novels. Rowling has (so far) published 5, as well as some
additional spin-off material based on those main 5. Therefore, one
*could* argue that any British names Rowling chose were bound to
appear in Christie's work as well. However, as literary fans will
note, some authors appear to have 'favorite' names, using a particular
name over and over again in different stories and for different
characters. I note the fact that 'Hermione', 'Harry' (NOT 'Harold'),
and 'Ron' are used multiple times throughout the body of Christie's
work, and of those three, 'Harry' appears the most number of times.
Others, like Lupin, Hedwig, Bulstrode, Pettigrew, etc, appear only
once. These are far more likely to be coincidences, in my opinion,
than proof of the subconsious as an influence upon the writing mind.
As an author myself, I realize that any argument attempting to
assert the influences upon another author's work are bound to be full
of incorrect assumptions and flaws. However, I put this list together
primarily for fun, and secondly, as a challenge- to see if any other
fans of both Christie and Rowling (or other authors!) care to make a
similar list. This list has taken me quite a lot of time and effort
and I'd appreciate any feedback or comments emailed to me at
mattie...@yahoo.com. I also include the disclaimer that this is a
list IN PROGRESS, and will probably be changed and posted/reposted at
my website whenever a new version has been created. (Located here:
http://www.geocities.com/mattiemayson/) I hope to expand the
connections I make in Rowling's work to other authors as well, and
would welcome the help and contributions of those who are interested.
You will probably note the fact that this list is unfortunately
uncomplete, and I have failed to cite exactly in which book the names
are found. I hope to accomplish this in future versions of this list.
This is an extremely rough draft. All quotes are copyright to the
author to which they are attributed.
Possible Literary Connections between J.K. Rowling and Agatha
Christie....
Mythical Creature References:
"Mrs. L's not exactly a chicken, but she's a damned good-looking
woman. Rather like those fairy women who come out of marshes with
lights and lure you away." (Agatha Christie, "Murder in
Mesopotamia")
During the Defense Against the Dark Arts class in Rowling's
Prisoner of Azkaban, the class faced a similar mythical creature.
Despite research on the subject, I have been unable to come up with
the creature's actual mythological name. I have never come across any
references to this type of creature in other literature.
Basilisks:
In several books, Christie references the basilisk in order to
refer to a character who has a 'frozen' look on his or her face. The
most notable example is in "The Mirror Crack'd"
"Was the woman going to faint? What on earth could she be seeing that
gave her that basilisk look?" ....
(Later on, describing the look...) "She had kind of a frozen look,"
said Mrs. Bantry, struggling with words, "as though she'd seen
something that- oh, dear me, how hard it is to describe things. Do you
remember the Lady of Shalott? The mirror crack'd from side to side;
'the doom has come upon me' cried the Lady of Shalott.'"
In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Basilisks, a mirror, and
being frozen (specifically, 'petrified') are a common theme.
Bogys/Boggarts
In Christie's book, Murder for Christmas, I came across this quote:
"'I can remember every word and incident of those days perfectly,'
said David passionately.
'Yes, but you shouldn't, my dear! It isn't natural to do so!.....I
think,' she said, 'that you're seeing your father as a Bogy! You're
exalting him into a kind of personification of Evil. Probably, if you
were to see him now, you would realize that he was only a very
ordinary man; a man, perhaps, whose passions ran away with him, a man
whose life was far from blameless, but nevertheless merely a man-- not
a kind of inhuman Monster!.....'
'And you want me to go?'
Hilda hesitated, then she suddenly made up her mind.
'Yes,' she said. 'I do. I want you to go and lay the Bogy once and
for all.'"
The 'Bogy' can be compared to Harry Potter's "Boggart", a mythical
creature which takes the shape of the worst fear of whoever views it.
It can only be slain by facing it, picturing it for what it is, and
saying a spell.
To summarize:
In Christie's books, there can be found references to basilisks,
bogies (boggarts), fairy women holding lights- all which can also be
found in Harry Potter, and which are extremely uncommon mythological
creatures. They are all so uncommon that none of them were used by
C.S. Lewis in his Narnia fantasy series, though he uses almost every
type of mythological creature. Neither are they used by J.R.R.
Tolkien- though a faint connection to Tolkien might be made in a
parallell to the bodies of the slain elves who lay in the dead marshes
and beckon people to join them.
Another interesting connection is the mention of a hippogryph in one
of Dorothy Sayers' mystery novels, "The Nine Tailors". Sayers was a
contemporary of Christie.
Pettigrew:
In "The Man in the Brown Suit", Christie features a character named
Miss Pettigrew, described as a ugly woman, who turns out to be much
more than she seems.
Eventually, Miss Pettigrew disappears, and it is eventually revealed
that she was actually a man in disguise- a criminal who was
masquerading as a woman. However, he is not the book's master
criminal, but only the right-hand man. Similarly, Peter Pettigrew in
the Harry Potter Series masqueraded as a rat for years, until forced
to turn back into his human form. He then rejoined his 'master', Lord
Voldemort, and helped him regain his body.
Arabella
The name "Arabella" is used as the name of a pet cat of Mrs.
Hemmings in Agatha Christie's "The Clocks." Mrs. Hemmings is a
neighbor who is described as being very scatty, and who collects cats-
she has about 14. Two little boys live nearby and delight in
tormenting her cats.
In the Harry Potter Series, Arabella Figg is the scatty neighbor of
the Dursleys, who have two boys. Arabella Figg loves cats, and is the
same personality type as Mrs. Hemmings.
Bulgaria and Romania
Bulgaria and Romania are both used as favorite 'mysterious' foreign
countries of Christie's throughout her body of work. She especially
uses both Romania and Bulgaria for political intrigue (Man in the
Brown Suit, The Secret of Chimneys, Murder on the Orient Express,
numerous short stories, etc.) These countries are mentioned in
Rowling's work as well. Bulgaria plays one side of the Quidditch world
cup. Romania is where Charlie Weasley works with dragons.
Trains:
Numerous murders occur on trains, take place as a result of trains
(the most famous being Murder on the Orient Express) or are centered
around trains (The ABC murders.) While the fact that the British
public has seemingly always been enamoured with trains, this may not
seem to be much of a connection, but taken with the fact that Christie
makes numerous references to the books of E. Nesbit, one of the
references being a clue which helps solve the mystery. E. Nesbit's
books have also been cited as a childhood favorite of Rowling's. It is
interesting to wonder what subconsious influences Nesbit might have
had on both Rowling and Christie.
Curious coincidences?
The name Lestrange is found in "Murder at the Vicarage." Mrs.
Lestrange is described as "the mysterious woman with the pale,
beautiful face..there was something sinister about her."
Another quote referencing Mrs. Lestrange... "The thought sprang
unbidden into my mind: This woman would stick at nothing....Mrs.
Lestrange rose to meet me. I was struck anew by the marvelous
atmosphere that this woman could create. She wore a dress of some
dead-black material that showed off the extraordinary fairness of her
skin. There was something curiously dead about her face. Only the eyes
were burningly alive."
Curiously enough, Mrs. Lestrange is married to a character named
Lucius in that book. "You don't know what my life is like. I've been
miserable with Lucius from the beginning. No woman could be happy with
him."
-Noted in numerous stories (The Man in the Brown Suit being one):
Marge, Harry as first names. Harold as a first name is occasionally
used (once or twice, compared to dozens of uses of Harry). "Harry" is
almost always a young man, usually engaged, around 20 years old in her
stories.
-Ronald and Ron are names used by Christie in numerous stories,
and apart from one instance in the book "At Bertram's Hotel", all the
characters of that name are young. Some are actually children, others,
teenagers or in their 20s or 30s. Christie even specifies that 'Ron'
has shockingly red hair in several novels.
-In Christie's novel "Sleeping Murder," Lily and James are a young
married couple. In another 'Miss Marple' Mystery, characters named
Lily and Harry are engaged. A couple named Lily and Arthur are married
in one of her short stories.
-Of the two occurances of the name "Granger" in Christie's novels
(one spelled "Grainger") one is a doctor. The character of Hermione
Granger, in J.K. Rowling's novels, has expressed an interest in
becoming a 'healer', or the magical world's equivalent of a doctor.
- Though the characters she choses to name Harry have occasionally
been responsible for an accident or injury (The Mirror Crack'd) Harry
has never been chosen as the name of an actual 'bad guy'. All the
seperate Harry's mishaps come about from inaction, accidents, or
smaller crimes (petty theft, etc.) However, Harry IS portrayed in a
couple stories as having a 'questionable character.' Harry is always
portrayed by Christie as a youth or man in his 20s.
-The name Hermione has been used by Christie multiple times, usually
for a young, main character. In Three Act Tragedy her nickname is
"Egg".
-While there is no location in any of Agatha Christie's novels
called "The Burrow," there is a Major Burrows, and he appears in the
same story (and frequently the same sentence) as Major Riddle, AND
another character called Tom.
-Christie's murder mystery which takes place at a boarding school,
features a sentence with the words "Bulstrode" and "Hedwig" in it,
together. The Harry Potter novels take place at a boarding school,
frequently involve mysteries including and involving murder. The name
of Harry's owl is Hedwig, and a classmate of his is named Millicent
Bulstrode.
From "Murder For Christmas" by Christie........
"And of course there's Harry - "
He stopped, slightly embarrassed.
"Harry?" said Magdalene, surprised. "Who is Harry?"
"Ah - er - my brother."
"I never knew you had another brother."
"My dear, he wasn't a great - er - credit - to us. We don't mention
him. His behaviour was disgraceful. We haven't heard anything of him
for some years now. He's probably dead."
Magdalene laughed suddenly.
"What is it? What are you laughing at?"
Magdalene said:
"I was only thinking how funny it was that you - you, George, should
have a disreputable brother! You're so very respectable."
"I should hope so," said George coldly.
Her eyes narrowed."
This attitude toward the character of Harry is similar to the
one Vernon and Petunia show toward Lily, James, and Harry Potter in
the Harry Potter series. They are overly paranoid about being
'respectable' and because of this, they don't 'mention' Lily and
James. It is ironic that the name Harry should be the one used here as
well.
Ginny:
- In Christie's book, "Appointment with Death," a young girl with
bright red hair who has been hypnotized and manipulated by a much
stronger personality becomes a suspect when that person is killed. Her
name is given as Ginevra, but is called "Ginny" for short. A parallell
can be made to Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Tom Riddle, an
older boy with a dominating personality, manages to control Ginny and
get her to open the Chamber of Secrets.
Here is a list of names Christie/Rowling both have used: (the name
must be used by both of them in order to make this list)
Harry
Harold
James
Potter
Lily
Evans
Mark
Vernon
Marge
Ronald (young child with shockingly red hair)
Ron
Hermione
Granger (two occurances in Christie's work, one spelled "Grainger")
Neville (In Christie's work, spelled "Nevile and Nevill")
Longbottom
Susan
Hannah
Abbott
Lee
Jordan
Colin
Dennis
Seamus
Michael
Oliver
Wood
Millicent
Bulstrode
Hedwig
Fred
George
Percy
Bill
Charlie
Ginny (Ginevra, whose nickname is Ginny in "Appointment with Death")
Molly
Arthur
Peter
Pettigrew
Lupin
Black
Tom
Riddle
Binns
Poppy
Arabella
Sybil
Trelawny
Lestrange
Lucius
Delores
Viktor (spelled "Victor" in Christie's books)
Nick
Baron
Cornelius
Roberts
Specific Breakdown of First and Last Names (Surnames) shared
between Christie/Rowling Stories:
Surnames:
Evans
Potter
Longbottom
Abbott
Jordan
Johnson
Wood
Hedwig
Bulstrode
Riddle
Trelawny
Granger
Pettigrew
Black
Lestrange
Binns
Roberts
First Names:
Harry
Harold
James
Lily
Mark
Vernon
Marge
Ronald (young child with shockingly red hair)
Ron
Hermione
Neville (Nevile and Nevill)
Lee
Hannah
Seamus
Michael
Oliver
Susan
Fred
George
Percy
Charlie
Bill
Molly
Arthur
Peter
Millicent
Arabella
Tom
Sybil
Poppy
Delores
Viktor (Victor)
Mark
Colin
Dennis
Nick
Cornelius
Lucius
Characters who are "bad guys" in both books:
(in order to qualify for this category, the name must be used in a
negative context in every single story in which it appears, for both
Christie and Rowling's books.)
Lucius
Pettigrew
Lestrange
Delores
**************************************
end list
Karen Hennessey
>
> - In Christie's book, "Appointment with Death," a young girl with
>bright red hair who has been hypnotized and manipulated by a much
>stronger personality becomes a suspect when that person is killed. Her
>name is given as Ginevra, but is called "Ginny" for short. A parallell
>can be made to Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Tom Riddle, an
>older boy with a dominating personality, manages to control Ginny and
>get her to open the Chamber of Secrets.
I'm sure on Rowling's website it said that Ginny was short for Ginevra...so...
:)
Wow...Well spotted stuff there. It sounds very influenced. Very interesting...
Karen
Helmut P. Einfalt
>
> Wow...Well spotted stuff there. It sounds very influenced. Very
> interesting...
So what?
I mean -- if you've read and loved "Why didn't they ask Evans" the
name of the person gets stuck to your head, and it may even be fun to
include it in a novel of your own, especially since it is not *that*
rare after all. Much more interesting would be to find parallels
between Christie's Evans and Rowling's Evans as characters in the
books...
For the rest, I doubt that it would be difficult to come up with
pre-Christiean *ggg* source from where Dame Agatha took inspiration.
And since we are at it -- having a look at Kipling's "Stalky & Co"
might give you an idea what books JKR favored... (note: There are
*many* similarities between Stalky & Co and the HP series, yet one
could not deduct that JKR took more than a hint of inspiration there!)
Helmut
--
All typos © My Knotty Fingers Ltd. Capacity Dept.
Karen Hennessey
It was just an interesting point and that if I'd read all the AC books as
thoroughly, I'd be tempted to think that she might've used them as
ideas...She's said that she's remembered names from all sorts of things for her
characters and probably hasn't.
I don;t know if JKR actually meant to use it or not and nor do I care.
It was just interesting to see all the same names together like that. Ok so it
isn't a rare thing....but just something I personally found mildly interesting.
Karen
Mattie Mayson
You're not alone in finding them interesting. I really loved the search-
and in answer to Helmut, the reason I did it is simply because, well, I
found it fun!
Authors are often unaware of the subconcious and its influence on their
work. As I said in my original message,
"I believe
a lot of that intellectual 'stealing' is done subconciously, and that
which we read and enjoy has a large impact upon our future writing, an
impact of which we may often be unaware."
Helmut, you seem to be inferring that I'm trying to slam Rowling when
attempting to connect the dots between the books which may have inspired
her. Please don't think so. I have done this because I am such a fan of
hers; it is facinating to me as well to ponder the influences of the
subconsious mind (although I don't think much of Freud in this arena.) I
believe we're influenced by everything in our lives, and not just the
sexual.
As for what you said about how it wouldn't be difficult to come up with the
inspirations from which Agatha Christie took her inspiration- maybe not! I'd
enjoy doing it, though, since I have as great a respect for Christie as I
have for Rowling. Both have managed to capture and hold the imaginations of
millions of people, and say what you like, that's no small feat!
I also don't think it's a horrible thing to be inspired by another or to
'borrow' ideas. It's one thing to copy- it's quite another to create a new
work based on something you admire and that has inspired you.
So many times, when I'm creating a new character, or a name for a place,
I'll think of a name- and then when I try and analyse where that name came
from, I realize that I last heard it used in a book I read when I was 12....
and I wonder, why did it come up now? It's a completely subconsious thing. I
didn't *TRY* to remember the name. And I note that whenever I'm writing, I
often use British words and phrases if I've recently read many books by
British authors. I don't attempt to do it. It's just what happens.
An interesting parallel to make is the recent controversy there was over
a Bob Dylan song that was found to have multiple lines (almost in their
entirety) taken out of a Japanese novel. Dylan did not credit or mention the
novel at any time, yet it was unmistakably from the novel. I believe he
eventually credited it in the liner notes.
And in Helen Keller's autobiography, she mentions an incident that
happened when she accidently copied a story written by another author, when
she was 12, I believe. She thought it was original; but the parallels were
unmistakeable.
In making the list of comparisons of Rowling to Christie, many seem
paltry, hardly worth noting, but combined, it's enough to make you wonder if
she had read many. In addition to the similiarity of names, their mystery
writing styles are similar; specifically, the way Rowling leads us on by
putting in a character-stated assumption as fact. ("Barty Crouch, Jr. died
in jail.") How many people honestly doubted that? It was technique, and a
good one. Now read Ten Little Indians/Then There Were None by Christie.
You'll fall flat on your face when attempting to solve that mystery if you
believe everything her characters say.... ;)
That specific technique is one that Dorothy Sayers does not use; that
Arthur Conan Doyle only occasionally uses; but one that Agatha Christie very
often uses. I'm slowly working my way through early twentieth century
British mystery fiction, and I find it facinating to read as many samples of
a genre I can at once. I know some would find it extremely boring.
If you go back and read Goblet of Fire as a mystery (not as a Harry Potter
book), do you see any stylistic differences from the rest of the series? I
do. I see purposeful red herrings scattered through the book, but I can't
find many in the other books. I believe she was purposefully attempting to
write a specific 'mystery' genre novel, whereas the other books, though they
contain elements of mystery, are essentially... well, fiction, I guess?
(For non-mystery fans, a red herring is a clue purposefully inserted into
a book to distract attention away from the real clues.)
And I'm glad that someone else finds this kind of thing interesting;
because I not only have made connections between Rowling/Christie, I've
started to do the same thing with Rowling/C.S. Lewis.
-Mattie
"Karen Hennessey" <karenjh...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040630184152...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Richard Eney
Mattie Mayson <mattie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Authors are often unaware of the subconcious and its influence on
>their work. As I said in my original message,
>
>"I believe a lot
>of that intellectual 'stealing' is done subconciously, and that
>which we read and enjoy has a large impact upon our future writing,
>an impact of which we may often be unaware."
Just a note on word choices:
I know you put 'stealing' in quotes, but it's still a poor word to use
when discussing writing. It's a touchy subject. There are more
useful words that don't set off triggers; "influence" is a good one,
or even "borrowing.". Other good words are "allusion", "homage", and
"resonance". There is also the concept of "the pool of story" into
which all authors dip. Sometimes an author will write somthing that,
while not especially similar to another's work, will be clearly done
in response to it.
> Helmut, you seem to be inferring that I'm trying to slam Rowling when
>attempting to connect the dots between the books which may have inspired
>her. Please don't think so. I have done this because I am such a fan of
>hers; it is facinating to me as well to ponder the influences of the
>subconsious mind (although I don't think much of Freud in this arena.)
Not being Helmut, I can't answer for him. But I think your word choice
may have been part of the problem.
Finding possible allusions can be a pleasant game if not taken to
extremes. It is mildly interesting that so many British names were used
by both authors. There is a cultural tendency to assign a character type
to a particular name. Sometimes both authors may have simply picked up on
a common cultural association or word similarity, such as "petty" + "grue"
= "pettigrew".
=Tamar
Ranee Mueller
> And I'm glad that someone else finds this kind of thing interesting;
> because I not only have made connections between Rowling/Christie, I've
> started to do the same thing with Rowling/C.S. Lewis.
I'd be interested in your comparison with Lewis. E-mail me if you
prefer not to post. Thank you.
Regards,
Ranee
--
Remove do not and spam to e-mail me.
"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of
heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man." Acts 17:24
Helmut P. Einfalt
This does require some spoiler space for all five books, I fear...
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... so if you don't want to discuss details of things,
you'd better quit reading here...
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... for here we go:
Mattie Mayson wrote:
> Helmut, you seem to be inferring that I'm trying to slam Rowling
No, I am not. My answer was more to Karen (or rather, to her reaction)
than to you, and was meant to tone down that "oh isn't that
interesting" feeling it conveyed.
Actually, I do *not* deny that I've found quite a few similarities to
other books in hers -- Kipling's "Stalky & Co", by no means his most
popular book nowadays (yet Kipling at his best) being one of them, as
I pointed out (and, loving Kipling, I am not going to divulge the
parallels between the Coll. and the Head and Mr. King and a few others
on one side and some of JKR's settings and characters on the other --
just read it for yourself!).
But my point still is: So what?
Nowadays, it is just impossible to write a book, as original as it may
be, without touching things that have been written before in some
place or other. For one, with about 30,000 new publications (fiction
and non-fiction) presented every year at the Frankfurt Book Fair (let
alone all the others), you may figure out for yourself how likely it
is that you come up with ideas no one has had before.
> (although I don't think much of Freud in this arena.)
You might want to consider Adler... *ggg*
> I believe we're influenced by everything in our lives
Now, *that* statement would lead us directly to Karl Marx... *ggg*
> As for what you said about how it wouldn't be difficult to come up
> with the inspirations from which Agatha Christie took her
> inspiration- maybe not! I'd enjoy doing it, though, since I have as
> great a respect for Christie as I have for Rowling.
Indeed, so do I. I'm by no means an expert on Agatha Christie, but I
may claim that I've read nearly everything she published, and most of
them several times -- among others for her excellent command of
English that keeps a nice balance between popular and sophisticated
(something that is probably more noticeable to someone whose mother
tongue is *not* English). And as I said before: when I first tumbled
over the name "Evans" in HP, I immediately remebered the title caption
"Why didn't they ask Evans" -- and it was not so much the name as the
fact that Evans dosen't show up at all in Christie's story (except at
the very end), but rather the ambiguity of the "Why didn't they
ask..." that fascinated me. Now, we're experiencing *two* Evanses in
JKR's works that we know little about and keep puzzling as to their
relevance to the story. And that's a nice bit of probably subconscious
influence I'd be the last one to deny. But does it matter?
> Both have managed to capture and hold the imaginations
> of millions of people, and say
> what you like, that's no small feat!
Working with text on a daily basis as an editor and publisher, I am
well aware that this actually *is* an achievement. More so for Rowling
who managed to capture an audience(*) that supposedly is not too
inclined to read any more and yet works its way through 600+ pages of
text without any full-colour picture...
(*) come to think of it: "audience" originally refers to listening --
we should use the somewhat less popular term "readership"!
> I also don't think it's a horrible thing to be inspired by another
> or to 'borrow' ideas. It's one thing to copy- it's quite another to
> create a new work based on something you admire and that has
inspired
> you.
It is a horrible thing to 'borrow' ideas just because you haven't any.
It is a different matter if you approach a topic from a point-of-view
like "Not, that's a nice idea -- I wonder if I can't work that one out
in a completely different manner".
> ("Barty Crouch, Jr. died in jail.") How many people honestly
> doubted that? It was technique, and a good one. Now read Ten Little
> Indians/Then There Were None by Christie. You'll fall flat on your
> face when attempting to solve that mystery if you believe everything
> her characters say.... ;)
"The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" is probably an even better example of
how to construct a story. In the solution of the mystery, the
first-person narrator states (correctly) that he never actually lied
in his description of the events, yet he managed to mislead the reader
into believing that this was an "objective" outside account of what
happened...
> That specific technique is one that Dorothy Sayers does not use;
"Five Red Herrings"?
By the way -- if you want to compare styles and techniques, you might
want to read "The floating Admiral" by
Christie/Sayers/Chesterton/andmanyothers
> If you go back and read Goblet of Fire as a mystery (not as a
Harry
> Potter book), do you see any stylistic differences from the rest of
> the series? I do.
No. I see a considerable development in terms of story-telling; after
all, the books grow up with the characters. At one point or another,
once the series is completed, I'd like to see a second revised edition
of the first two volumes that brings them up to the same narrative
standard of quality that Rowling has reached meanwhile.
> I see purposeful red herrings scattered through the
> book, but I can't find many in the other books.
The story-line of the fist two books was much more linear from the
outset -- and yes, Rowling's narrative techniques have matured as has
her style.
> And I'm glad that someone else finds this kind of thing
> interesting; because I not only have made connections between
> Rowling/Christie, I've started to do the same thing with
Rowling/C.S.
> Lewis.
I've no objections against doing work of this kind, but I'd wait until
the series is finished (after all, we're likely to get many questions
answered that still puzzle us -- it isn't that JKR writes one novel
after the other without having a more or less detailed outline of how
the whole series is going to evolve). And *then* we could start an
attempt to write something like "Literary influences on JKR", and once
we've agreed (or disagreed) on a set of authors we can set out to do
the detail research and analysis ("Literary influences on JKR. Vol
XVII: Wilkie Collins"). I herewith declare that I'd be willing to take
over the Kipling part (Vol XXIX)...
Karen Hennessey
>and in answer to Helmut, the reason I did it is simply because, well, I
>found it fun!
And *that* is the main thing, finding it *fun*. And being told to tone it down
because you're having fun and finding something interesting with another perosn
is just killjoy.
Karen
Karen Hennessey
>than to you, and was meant to tone down that "oh isn't that
>interesting" feeling it conveyed.
Dude, I have my opinions, am entitled to say what I find interesting and how I
say it and I'd rather you didnt slam me for it.
Karen
Helmut P. Einfalt
First, I never doubted that you're entitled to your opinions to say
what you find interesting and how you say it.
Second, I accept that you'd rather not have me slam you for it.
However -- the tone of your answer isn't exactly one that, err..,
invites one to be too polite
(you see, *I* don't like being called names). Actually, I have reason
to believer that what you express has something to do with
(opinion-3.14), and that's not exactly what I'm gonna discuss.
Mattie Mayson
Ackroyd" by Agatha Christie
> Indeed, so do I. I'm by no means an expert on Agatha Christie, but I
> may claim that I've read nearly everything she published, and most of
> them several times -- among others for her excellent command of
> English that keeps a nice balance between popular and sophisticated
> (something that is probably more noticeable to someone whose mother
> tongue is *not* English). And as I said before: when I first tumbled
> over the name "Evans" in HP, I immediately remebered the title caption
> "Why didn't they ask Evans" -- and it was not so much the name as the
> fact that Evans dosen't show up at all in Christie's story (except at
> the very end), but rather the ambiguity of the "Why didn't they
> ask..." that fascinated me. Now, we're experiencing *two* Evanses in
> JKR's works that we know little about and keep puzzling as to their
> relevance to the story. And that's a nice bit of probably subconscious
> influence I'd be the last one to deny. But does it matter?
Well, if you're asking, is it going to cure cancer? No. Is it going to
keep me mildly amused while I read through Christie's works? YES.
Perhaps you feel that it shouldn't have been posted here, but I hoped I
wasn't the only one to find literary connections facinating. If J.K. Rowling
was to post on her site today, "I've never read a single Agatha Christie
novel" I'd still regard it as time well spent, maybe because to me, looking
for similarities was like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, an incomplete
one at that, but still amusing. And if she did say that, btw, I'd be left
wondering about the mysterious circumstances of coincidence.
I'm well aware of the fact that some of the connections made were not
that remarkable- for example, my finding the last name "Johnson" in both
bodies of work?! I think the odds were probably much more in favor of my
finding them than my *not* finding them. But the interesting coincidence of
finding both "Hedwig and Bulstrode" in the same sentence I found
interesting, as well as Ms. Lestrange being married to a Lucius, and also
Christie's 3 memorable mentions of a young, pretty girl named Hermione,
noted for her brains.
Hermione may perhaps be explained away by the fact that it's a
Shakespearian name, and both Christie and Rowling appeared to have a good
grounding in the classics. But why choose Hermione and not.. well, Hermia?
or Portia? It's interesting that both writers found the name Hermione
appealing, since both selected it for major heroine roles.
> It is a horrible thing to 'borrow' ideas just because you haven't any.
> It is a different matter if you approach a topic from a point-of-view
> like "Not, that's a nice idea -- I wonder if I can't work that one out
> in a completely different manner".
Yes, which is why I put 'stealing' in quotes. If you haven't heard of
the (Russian?) knock-off of Harry Potter which is essentially a Russian
copied version of the same story, but involving a magical bass (like the
instrument, not the fish), I regard that kind of thing as definately
stealing. Rowling sued; and rightly so, I believe.
But I've read a few short stories that have inspired me, gotten me to
wonder "what would happen if..." and gotten me writing. Usually my final
product ends up so completely different from what I found that inspired me,
nobody would be able to make the parallel but myself- but still, it served
as a source of inspiration.
I guess what's interesting to debate is where one crosses the line between
intellectual inspiration and intellectual plagiarism. Can it even be
defined?
> "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" is probably an even better example of
> how to construct a story. In the solution of the mystery, the
> first-person narrator states (correctly) that he never actually lied
> in his description of the events, yet he managed to mislead the reader
> into believing that this was an "objective" outside account of what
> happened...
You are right, completely right. I knew there was probably a better
example... thanks!
The Murder of Roger Ackroyd was what put Christie on the mystery writer
map, essentially. And the cool thing is, she manages to do it AGAIN in
another novel, and when reading it, I was completely taken in, in the same
way. I won't put the name of the particular novel up but if you email me,
I'd gladly supply it. I just don't want to deprive anyone the pleasure of
reading a great story. :)
> > That specific technique is one that Dorothy Sayers does not use;
>
> "Five Red Herrings"?
AH! I wondered if anyone was a Sayers fan and would try to contradict me
on that one. First of all you should know that "The Five Red Herrings" was
originally to be published under the title, "Suspicious Characters". For
some reason, they've now changed the name. But if you recall, in the book
(of course, which I don't have my copy of, and cannot quote directly
from...) the main character, Lord Peter Wimsey, complains to someone, his
servant Bunter, I believe, about the amount of 'red herrings' modern
detective novels have strewn throughout their books. He found them annoying.
Wimsey, who was probably speaking as a mouthpiece for Sayers at this point,
went on to say that a good detective novel could be written *without* red
herrings, but he was tempted to write a story and scatter tons and tons of
red herrings through it, just to teach people a lesson. "The Five Red
Herrings" is Sayers's effort in this direction.
Most critics agree that The Five Red Herrings is not Sayers's best work;
many of the red herrings are never explained, they're simply inserted into
the story to cause confusion. It's notable only for the fact that it
contains Peter Wimsey. The intricate details Sayers goes into with railroad
timeschedules, system of punches, branch lines, etc, gets extremely boring.
All in all, I believe it was a bit of a sarcastic response to the popularity
of what Sayers (who was an Oxford graduate) found to be the unintellectual
trend of using red herrings in mysteries. She really preferred to write
books in which you know ALL your suspects from the start; they have alibis,
and the 'fun' of the mystery is supposed to be involved in breaking down the
suspects' alibis. Sayers was- er... in my opinion, a little stuck up and
snobbish about mystery stories. When she left the genre completely in the
1940's, to start writing as a Christian Apologist, she said something to the
effect that it was impossible to produce anything other than 'fluff' in a
detective story format- that nothing serious could be accomplished or said.
While mysteries ARE fun, and can be full of fluff, I disagree with her.
I believe in Christie's work, as well as in Rowling's novels, some wonderful
passages can be found that deal with the meaning of life, about death,
murder, and those who'd cause it willfully. Just because you are writing
about crime does not mean that you cannot write with grace, ease, and
profundity.
> I've no objections against doing work of this kind, but I'd wait until
> the series is finished (after all, we're likely to get many questions
> answered that still puzzle us -- it isn't that JKR writes one novel
> after the other without having a more or less detailed outline of how
> the whole series is going to evolve). And *then* we could start an
> attempt to write something like "Literary influences on JKR", and once
> we've agreed (or disagreed) on a set of authors we can set out to do
> the detail research and analysis ("Literary influences on JKR. Vol
> XVII: Wilkie Collins"). I herewith declare that I'd be willing to take
> over the Kipling part (Vol XXIX)...
Part of the reason I post this incomplete list now is because I know
it's the kind of thing that really needs a lot of time to be revised,
updated, and to have additions tacked on. And because... I'm... er, kind of
lazy. The more time I give myself for a task, the better.
If you're really serious about creating a compendium of
references/possible influences, I would love to read what you write. Wilkie
Colins, really father of the detective story format, would be interesting to
compare. I don't envy the person who attempts to tackle Rowling/Shakespeare!
I think the best candidate for comparison is C.S. Lewis/Rowling- while I
realize some of the connections I've made between Rowling and Christie are
probably if not definately coincidences, the ones with Lewis are much less
likely to be, mainly because she's already mentioned Lewis as a major
childhood influence, and secondly, the connections go much deeper than just
names or similar character casting.
-Mattie
--
******************************************
"Homer, I find your theory of a donut
shaped universe intriguing."
-Stephen Hawking, The Simpsons
email/flame/send free donuts to:
mattie...@yahoo.com
I'm including the text of your original message in its entirety, because
I've shamelessly chopped it up so in order to respond:
"Helmut P. Einfalt" <helmut.p.ei...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:40e39818$0$24152$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at...
> All typos Š My Knotty Fingers Ltd. Capacity Dept.
>
dvh
Mattie Mayson wrote:
>
> Well, if you're asking, is it going to cure cancer? No. Is it going to
> keep me mildly amused while I read through Christie's works? YES.
>
> Perhaps you feel that it shouldn't have been posted here, but I hoped I
> wasn't the only one to find literary connections facinating.
.
While I have to admit, I did not read the entire post on the connection
between AC and JKR, I thought it was certainly related, and, had I been
a AC fan (no; but my mother has read all of them many times), then I
would have found the post fascinating.
If one is not interested in a post, skip it--it takes about a
millisecond to do so. On the other hand, the entire tirade about
Farenheit was so off the topic, and I am not sure why it was ever posted
here, except for the fact that someone chose to post to numerous groups.
Helmut P. Einfalt
>> But does it matter?
>
> Well, if you're asking, is it going to cure cancer?
> No. Is it going to keep me mildly amused
> while I read through Christie's works? YES.
That's a reason, and a good one, for that matter.
Now I'll be cheeky and ask: Do you post everything that amuses you
into the NGs? *ggg*
> Perhaps you feel that it shouldn't have been posted here, but I
> hoped I wasn't the only one to find literary connections facinating.
The problem with such postings is that more often than not they're
going to trigger an endless discussion about who borrowed what from
whom and why and whether Tom Smith was more exploited than Dick Jones
or Harry Black, and sooner or later all of that ends at the usual
"Tolkien is better than Rowling!" -- "No, he isn't!" -- "Yes, he
is!"... *ggg*
> If J.K. Rowling was to post on her site today, "I've never read a
> single Agatha Christie novel" ...
...would you believe her?
It would be *most* remarkable if she had never ever cast an eye into
one of them...
> And if she did say that, btw, I'd be left wondering about
> the mysterious circumstances of coincidence.
Well, I've seen cases where two people tapped the same source
independently, but that certainly *is* rare.
> for example, my finding the last name "Johnson"
> in both bodies of work?! I think the odds were probably much more in
> favor of my finding them than my *not* finding them.
I'll subscribe to that without hesitation!
> But why choose Hermione and not..
> well, Hermia?
Sounds too much like "hernia", would require a lot of wasted space to
depict the teasing hte poor girl will suffer at school... (and mind
you, if JKR would leave out the tease part, she'd open herself to a
criticism from the adult readers who know from experience that such a
name will induce youngsters to fool around with it...).
> or Portia?
Lemme think a moment if I can come up with a reason for not choosing
Portia....
... attempt failed.
> It's interesting that both writers found the name Hermione
appealing,
> since both selected it for major heroine roles.
I would have to wade through half a mile of books to contradict you by
finding out that some 19th century author used the name and that both
Dame Agatha and JKR found the idea amusing... (No, Collins doesn't
have it... but what if JKR had chosen Jezabel?)
> If you haven't heard of the (Russian?) knock-off ...
> Rowling sued; and rightly so, I believe.
That's what copyright laws are for.
> I guess what's interesting to debate is where one crosses the line
> between intellectual inspiration and intellectual plagiarism. Can it
> even be defined?
Yes, and it has been defined pretty often in courts all over the
world.
The main difference is that plagiarism (a copyright infringement)
involves appropriation of an original idea by somebody else (without
the owner's consent), while inspiration involves starting from a
train-of-thought and developing a unique and *own* idea from there.
Note that it is allowed to pilfer and plunder works that fell out of
copyright protection, so if anybody wanted they could go on and use
much or nearly all of Dickens, Collins, whosoever (not that it would
do them any good, however...).
>> "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" is probably an even better example of
>> how to construct a story.
>
> You are right, completely right. I knew there was probably a
better
> example... thanks!
Still, I consider "Then there were none" a very clever construction,
but I admit I don't like the story as such too much.
> I won't put the name of the particular novel up
> but if you email me, I'd gladly supply it. I just don't want to
> deprive anyone the pleasure of reading a great story. :)
I'm trying to figure it out on my own, but I will have to go upstairs
and browse the attic library...
>
>>> That specific technique is one that Dorothy Sayers does not
>>> use;
>>
>> "Five Red Herrings"?
>
> AH! I wondered if anyone was a Sayers fan and would try to
> contradict me on that one.
I'm by no means a Sayers fan, but talking of red herrings it would be
a shame not to mention that book. Besides, it reminds me more of some
of the "Perry Mason" stuff than of Agatha Christie...
> The intricate details Sayers goes into with railroad timeschedules,
> system of punches, branch lines, etc, gets extremely boring.
That was something I liked. But then, I had just read my way through a
couple of Edgar Wallace's...
> I believe in Christie's work, as well as in Rowling's
> novels, some wonderful passages can be found that deal with the
> meaning of life, about death, murder, and those who'd cause it
> willfully. Just because you are writing about crime does not mean
> that you cannot write with grace, ease, and profundity.
Yep.
>> I'd be willing to take over the Kipling part (Vol XXIX)...
>
> If you're really serious about creating a compendium of
> references/possible influences, I would love to read what you write.
Note that mine will be vol.29, so until at least the first eighteen
are out, I won't write one word! *ggg*
> Wilkie Collins, really father of the detective story format, would
be
> interesting to compare.
> I think the best candidate for comparison is C.S. Lewis/Rowling
...which means I have to dig out these books, too...
Not now, however, I've got other work to do...
Helmut
--
All typos © My Knotty Fingers Ltd. Capacity Dept.
Mattie Mayson
Spoilers are contained in this email for HP book 5, Agatha Christie's
"Murder on the Orient Express," "Ten Little Indians", and "The Murder of
Roger Ackroyd"
--
"Helmut P. Einfalt" <helmut.p.ei...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:40e4304c$0$18586$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at...
> Mattie Mayson wrote:
> >> But does it matter?
> >
> > Well, if you're asking, is it going to cure cancer?
> > No. Is it going to keep me mildly amused
> > while I read through Christie's works? YES.
>
> That's a reason, and a good one, for that matter.
> Now I'll be cheeky and ask: Do you post everything that amuses you
> into the NGs? *ggg*
Good grief, no, I save a lot of the more boring ones and inflict them on
my husband. ;)
>
> > Perhaps you feel that it shouldn't have been posted here, but I
> > hoped I wasn't the only one to find literary connections facinating.
>
> The problem with such postings is that more often than not they're
> going to trigger an endless discussion about who borrowed what from
> whom and why and whether Tom Smith was more exploited than Dick Jones
> or Harry Black, and sooner or later all of that ends at the usual
> "Tolkien is better than Rowling!" -- "No, he isn't!" -- "Yes, he
> is!"... *ggg*
>
Ahh, the astute literary debates of the internet! lol
I realized that the disclaimer in front of the Christie post was pretty
substantial, and some might think it overkill, but I hoped it would prevent
the discussion from devolving into a flame war about how Rowling 'copied'
Christie or how Christie was better... etc. I'd like to make it known that I
respect just about every author who actually puts work into his/her novels,
admittedly, some, more than others, and some (like Danielle Steele) not at
all. I figure authors like her simply copy themselves, over and over and
over. (Bracing myself for the flames from any Danielle Steele fans)
But even my 'favorite' authors are subject to my nitpicking. I think
the best way to judge how well I esteem Rowling's writing is by how nitpicky
I am of her books. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother to type a message
about it, because frankly, I'm lazy. Dorothy Sayers, she annoys me much
more than Christie or Rowling, but because she annoys me, I'd never find the
time nor devotion to go through her works with a fine tooth comb looking for
connections to other authors.
> > If J.K. Rowling was to post on her site today, "I've never read a
> > single Agatha Christie novel" ...
>
> ...would you believe her?
> It would be *most* remarkable if she had never ever cast an eye into
> one of them...
I don't know if I'd believe her. I'd probably think that she had read a
few of them at some point in her life, but didn't remember it. I haven't
ever caught her lying, although at times, I think she stretches a point in
order to keep the credibility of her 'created world', for the children's
sake.
(I wrote a lot about this, but decided to put it in a seperate post,
because it's so long I think it belongs there.. so for my answer please
check out the post entitled, "Is Rowling Lying?")
<snip>
>
> > I guess what's interesting to debate is where one crosses the line
> > between intellectual inspiration and intellectual plagiarism. Can it
> > even be defined?
>
> Yes, and it has been defined pretty often in courts all over the
> world.
> The main difference is that plagiarism (a copyright infringement)
> involves appropriation of an original idea by somebody else (without
> the owner's consent), while inspiration involves starting from a
> train-of-thought and developing a unique and *own* idea from there.
> Note that it is allowed to pilfer and plunder works that fell out of
> copyright protection, so if anybody wanted they could go on and use
> much or nearly all of Dickens, Collins, whosoever (not that it would
> do them any good, however...).
Well, what I meant by the stupidly rhetorical question I posed, was
basically, "yes, it can be defined, but which definition is correct?"
Because everyone, their brother, and the RIAA seems to have a different
opinion about where that line is. For example, in China, if you copy a book
and its contents onto the internet, they believe it's completely ok to
assume the copyright themselves- for example, putting "copyright My Name
Here" at the bottom of the page. They honestly feel that if they typed it
up, they own the copyright. And because they're in China and their webpage
is hosted in China, there isn't a thing US/British copyright authors can do
about it. For example, take a look at this:
That's an example. The text of many of Christie's works are up there and the
english versions of them say "copyright cnajs.com" at the bottom. Not
"Copyright Agatha Christie, Ltd." as they should say, if you're following US
copyright law. This isn't just the normal 'intellectual piracy' thing, it's
a different cultural standard.
And another thing, to play off what you said, is that the court
definition of a 'new' work, while inspired by another work, is a slippery
slope. Take the famous case of George Harrison, sued because of a simple
resemblance in his song "My Sweet Lord" to the song "He's So Fine" by....
the Shondells? Chantrelles?
The court found against Harrison and he was ordered to pay, even though
no lyrics are the same and the supposedly similar piece of music isn't even
discernable to a lot of people.
Now, rap and r&b music artists often 'sample' songs in their music, I
believe a Beastie Boys song was made entirely up out of samples of other
people's work, and for some reason, that was legal. Why is sampling legal,
but what Harrison did not? It's such a slippery slope.
The RIAA's introduced legislation to make copying a movie in a theater a
*felony* in the United States. Felonies can be punished by up to 10 years in
prison, I believe, and all for a simple copyright violation. Should someone
who copies a movie do more time in prison than, say, a rapist?
>
> >> "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" is probably an even better example of
> >> how to construct a story.
> >
> > You are right, completely right. I knew there was probably a
> better
> > example... thanks!
>
> Still, I consider "Then there were none" a very clever construction,
> but I admit I don't like the story as such too much.
I don't either, because of the implied morality. Although, as my husband
points out, you never really know if Agatha Christie agreed with the point
of view of the murderer. But his self-justification and the fact that he
himself professed to be innocent of the murder he was accused of committing
ended up making him look, not like a murderer for pleasure, but kind of an
avenging angel. I think more highly of the morals involved in Murder on the
Orient Express, which, I believe, is the only murder Poirot willingly
decides to 'overlook.'
>
> > I won't put the name of the particular novel up
> > but if you email me, I'd gladly supply it. I just don't want to
> > deprive anyone the pleasure of reading a great story. :)
>
> I'm trying to figure it out on my own, but I will have to go upstairs
> and browse the attic library...
>
Well, if you give up, email me. Here's some hints: It's not a Poirot book,
nor Miss Marple book, and it's a full sized novel, not a short story. I'd
classify it as one of her later ones, (which was smart, since people needed
awhile to forget Roger Ackroyd.)
> >> I'd be willing to take over the Kipling part (Vol XXIX)...
> >
> > If you're really serious about creating a compendium of
> > references/possible influences, I would love to read what you write.
>
> Note that mine will be vol.29, so until at least the first eighteen
> are out, I won't write one word! *ggg*
lolol... well, be prepared for a looooong wait, perhaps 40 years or so.
>
> > Wilkie Collins, really father of the detective story format, would
> be
> > interesting to compare.
>
> > I think the best candidate for comparison is C.S. Lewis/Rowling
>
> ...which means I have to dig out these books, too...
>
> Not now, however, I've got other work to do...
>
other work? Other work?! Good lord!!
:::::coming to senses and realizing her house goes on the market next
week::::::::
Back to drudgery.. where's my house elf?!
-Mattie
*****************************************************
"True power is held by the person who possesses
the largest bookshelf, not gun cabinet, or wallet."
PButler111
>From: mattie...@yahoo.com (Mattie Mayson)
>Date: 6/30/2004 10:54 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <b8af0f90.04063...@posting.google.com>
>
>This document attempts to summarize the striking similarities between
Yeah, they both have ovaries, too. I think we should call the FBI to look into
that.
Karen Hennessey
>>> reaction) than to you, and was meant to tone down that "oh isn't
that
>>> interesting" feeling it conveyed.
>
>> Dude, I have my opinions, am entitled to say what I find interesting
>> and how I say it and I'd rather you didnt slam me for it.
>First, I never doubted that you're entitled to your opinions to say
>what you find interesting and how you say it.
Well it sounded as though you did. Especially with your 'So what?'
It came across as very abrupt and disregarding. I'm still trying to establish
myself here.
>Second, I accept that you'd rather not have me slam you for it.
Thank you :)
>However -- the tone of your answer isn't exactly one that, err..,
>invites one to be too polite
>(you see, *I* don't like being called names).
I didn't call you any names. If you're talking about 'Dude' then That
wasn't name calling. There was no offence intended as I call a lot of people
that.
However if you did take offence then I apologise.
The tone was not meant to come across as rude. Maybe it was the way I typed it.
Things can come across wrong online. Unless you're talking about the first post
I made to
the thread. I still fail to see what was wrong with it. As I said I'm still
trying to get
a feel of the lace and establish myself but keep coming across impatient, sharp
tongued
posters. Though I realise it's impossible to tell who's new and who's not and
there must be a awful lot of
annoying repitition. Just please don't be so quick to jump down my throat if my
answer 'annoys' you next time
and lets glide into discussion.
Actually, I have reason
>to believer that what you express has something to do with
>(opinion-3.14), and that's not exactly what I'm gonna discuss.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about there... :/
Karen
Richard Eney
Mattie Mayson <mattie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm well aware of the fact that some of the connections made were not
>that remarkable- for example, my finding the last name "Johnson" in both
>bodies of work?! I think the odds were probably much more in favor of my
>finding them than my *not* finding them. But the interesting coincidence of
>finding both "Hedwig and Bulstrode" in the same sentence I found
>interesting, as well as Ms. Lestrange being married to a Lucius,
Those were interesting, yes.
> and also
>Christie's 3 memorable mentions of a young, pretty girl named Hermione,
>noted for her brains.
> Hermione may perhaps be explained away by the fact that it's a
>Shakespearian name, and both Christie and Rowling appeared to have a good
>grounding in the classics. But why choose Hermione and not.. well, Hermia?
>or Portia? It's interesting that both writers found the name Hermione
>appealing, since both selected it for major heroine roles.
Hermione was a popular name at the time. The actress Hermione Gingold
was also well known and popular.
>I guess what's interesting to debate is where one crosses the line between
>intellectual inspiration and intellectual plagiarism. Can it even be
>defined?
It's been legally defined. I am not a lawyer and that's not a thread
I want to get into. If you search on Google you'll find lots of
discussions.
> While mysteries ARE fun, and can be full of fluff, I disagree with her.
>I believe in Christie's work, as well as in Rowling's novels, some wonderful
>passages can be found that deal with the meaning of life, about death,
>murder, and those who'd cause it willfully. Just because you are writing
>about crime does not mean that you cannot write with grace, ease, and
>profundity.
Agreed. And the same goes for magic, etc.
>Wilkie Colins,
>really father of the detective story format, would be interesting
>to compare. I don't envy the person who attempts to tackle
>Rowling/Shakespeare!
If you want to try it, I suggest you start with "The Tempest".
=Tamar
Helmut P. Einfalt
> I didn't call you any names.
> If you're talking about 'Dude' then That wasn't name calling.
> There was no offence intended as I call a lot of people that.
> However if you did take offence then I apologise.
I admit that I resent being called "dude" -- but I accept that you
didn't mean it to be offensive.
> Actually, I have reason
>> to believe that what you express has something to do with
>> (opinion-3.14), and that's not exactly what I'm gonna discuss.
>
> I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about there... :/
3.14 = Pi
[O-pi-nion]-[Pi] = something that sets you crying if you look at it
from near... *ggg*
(that's *my* way of being snotty *ggg*)
And now lets discuss...
dvh
Richard Eney wrote:
.
Just curious. that one I have read. What do you see as similar?
Richard Eney
dvh <henn...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Richard Eney wrote:
>> If you want to try it, I suggest you start with "The Tempest".
>>
>> =Tamar
>
Magical interaction starts with the main character on an island.
When weird stuff happens (dogs howling, monsters, ghosts),
some characters are frightened, main character deals with it
better. We judge the worth of the characters by how they react.
Magical feasts, both eaten and taken away while scolding is done.
Helpful spirits and dangerous beings.
Hero has to do hard work to win the right to enter the inmost chamber.
Old bearded wizard in charge of it all.
OK they're pretty general, but if you went through them line by line,
I think there would be some good correspondences, enough to write an
article (or a scholarly paper) about.
=Tamar
PButler111
>I think there would be some good correspondences, enough to write an
>article (or a scholarly paper) about.
Then again, anyone who went through them line by line is probably a prisoner
under a life sentence or or paralyzed from the hatpin down.
Mattie Mayson
"Richard Eney" <dic...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:10eesu1...@corp.supernews.com...
I would find that facinating!!
But then again, I find PBS and "Inside the Actor's Studio" facinating.
-Mattie
*************************************************************
I shook my head. 'Many men have been hanged on far slighter evidence,' I
remarked.
'So they have. And many men have been wrongfully hanged.'"
-Arthur Conan Doyle,
The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (The Boscombe Valley Mystery)
email/flame/send free donuts to:
mattie...@yahoo.com
(Please assume that I do not see your responses
unless you cc me. I'm currently moving house.)
Mattie Mayson
and when a similar name or situation catches my eye, I write it down.
I freed myself from my hatpin 2 years ago!
-Mattie
*************************************************************
I shook my head. 'Many men have been hanged on far slighter evidence,' I
remarked.
'So they have. And many men have been wrongfully hanged.'"
-Arthur Conan Doyle,
The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (The Boscombe Valley Mystery)
email/flame/send free donuts to:
mattie...@yahoo.com
(Please assume that I do not see your responses
unless you cc me. I'm currently moving house.)
"PButler111" <pbutl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040704105630...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Igenlode Wordsmith
On 30 Jun 2004 Mattie Mayson wrote:
[snip]
> Mythical Creature References:
>
> "Mrs. L's not exactly a chicken, but she's a damned good-looking
> woman. Rather like those fairy women who come out of marshes with
> lights and lure you away." (Agatha Christie, "Murder in
> Mesopotamia")
>
> During the Defense Against the Dark Arts class in Rowling's
> Prisoner of Azkaban, the class faced a similar mythical creature.
> Despite research on the subject, I have been unable to come up with
> the creature's actual mythological name.
Try Jack'o'lantern, Will-o'the-wisp - it's a well known phenomenon of
marsh gas. Tolkien's corpse-candles in the Dead Marshes are based on
the same folklore, where the dancing lights out over the deepest parts
of the marsh lead travellers astray.
> In several books, Christie references the basilisk
[snip]
> In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Basilisks, a mirror, and
> being frozen (specifically, 'petrified') are a common theme.
Well, according to common legend, meeting the gaze of a basilisk (or
'cockatrice' - hatched from a *cock's* egg) does indeed turn you to
stone. As you might guess from the name - 'basiliskos', diminutive of
'basileus' - it dates back to the Ancient Greeks and occurs in Pliny.
It is familiar to anyone with classical knowledge, which up until fifty
years ago or so would be practically everyone with a literary
education. Doesn't P.G.Wodehouse use it of one of his Aunts? And that
high-brow and obscure fantasy author Piers Anthony includes a basilisk
in one of his very first (and definitely best) Xanth novels...
[snip]
>
> 'Yes,' she said. 'I do. I want you to go and lay the Bogy once and
> for all.'"
>
> The 'Bogy' can be compared to Harry Potter's "Boggart", a mythical
> creature which takes the shape of the worst fear of whoever views it.
In northern dialect, a boggart ranks alongside ghaisties and ghoulies
and things that go bump in the night; and indeed, to 'boggle at'
something means simply to react as if a boggart or bogle had risen up
in one's face - originally used of horses shying, I believe ;-)
Boggart or Bogeyman is a well-known nursery term for a frightening or
formless creature, often supposed to lurk under the bed and grab legs
or arms that dangle too close, or to skulk behind the door or in the
wardrobe. The only sure way to get rid of one of these is to screw
oneself up to go and look more closely, whereupon in a better light the
threatening shadows will invariably dissolve away - hence 'to lay a
Bogey' in common parlance, to go and take a good look at something that
frightens you. This is the term as Agatha Christie is using it.
Terry Pratchett (that obscure fantasy author) taps into the same vein as
J.K.Rowling when he brings these childhood dreads literally to life in
the shape of the threatening Bogeyman who can be driven off by the mere
sight of a piece of blanket (since children can always escape them by
hiding their heads under the blankets). Rowling's formless Boggart,
vanquished by laughter, is obviously taken from the same traditional
template.
[snip]
> In Christie's books, there can be found references to basilisks,
> bogies (boggarts), fairy women holding lights- all which can also be
> found in Harry Potter, and which are extremely uncommon mythological
> creatures. They are all so uncommon that none of them were used by
> C.S. Lewis in his Narnia fantasy series, though he uses almost every
> type of mythological creature.
That is scarcely an indication of rarity! Lewis takes creatures *from*
almost every mythology he knows - he certainly doesn't claim to use
*all* the creatures from any of them. Just off the top of my head, he
uses the Maenads but not the Cyclops - does that make the Cyclops an
extremely uncommon mythological creature? Rowling uses the three-headed
Cerberus from the same mythology; Lewis doesn't. Does that make it
somehow more significant?
As I have indicated above, these are all familiar features of folklore
- at least as familiar as house-elves or brownies, kelpies, and
Headless Hunts. Unsurprisingly, they also occur in fantasy novels by
world-famous writers. If Christie had mentioned in passing Thestrals or
Hinkypunks, you would have a rather more persuasive argument! :-)
> Another interesting connection is the mention of a hippogryph in one
> of Dorothy Sayers' mystery novels, "The Nine Tailors". Sayers was a
> contemporary of Christie.
I remember Erebus and the evil elephants ("He sitteth between the
cherubims" :-) but where does a hippogryph come into it? (And what is
it supposed to connect - other than the fact that writers of the
Thirties knew their classical mythology?)
[snip name correspondences]
> Bulgaria and Romania are both used as favorite 'mysterious' foreign
> countries of Christie's throughout her body of work. She especially
> uses both Romania and Bulgaria for political intrigue (Man in the
> Brown Suit, The Secret of Chimneys, Murder on the Orient Express,
> numerous short stories, etc.) These countries are mentioned in
> Rowling's work as well. Bulgaria plays one side of the Quidditch world
> cup. Romania is where Charlie Weasley works with dragons.
Eastern Europe (Ruritania, Bohemia, Transsylvania) is the traditional
place for mysterious foreign countries, used by authors from Conan
Doyle to Stevenson and beyond. Both Christie and Rowling set events in
Egypt, which is rather less common - but you haven't mentioned that :-)
>
>
> Trains:
>
> Numerous murders occur on trains, take place as a result of trains
> (the most famous being Murder on the Orient Express) or are centered
> around trains (The ABC murders.) While the fact that the British
> public has seemingly always been enamoured with trains, this may not
> seem to be much of a connection,
I'm afraid not. Detective stories have notoriously been based around
trains - the irresistable attraction of sealed compartments and
cast-iron timetables. Sayers' "Five Red Herrings", for example, not
only has a crucial passage taking place on a train, but also takes
place in *Scotland* (shock! horror!) I recently acquired an anthology
of Victorian detective stories entitled "Murder on the Railways",
collecting together a vast array of authors - a pretty fat volume ;-)
> but taken with the fact that Christie
> makes numerous references to the books of E. Nesbit
Does she? Where? I don't remember any, but I haven't read *all* her
books...
, one of the
> references being a clue which helps solve the mystery. E. Nesbit's
> books have also been cited as a childhood favorite of Rowling's. It is
> interesting to wonder what subconsious influences Nesbit might have
> had on both Rowling and Christie.
>
> Curious coincidences?
>
> The name Lestrange is found in "Murder at the Vicarage." Mrs.
> Lestrange is described as "the mysterious woman with the pale,
> beautiful face..there was something sinister about her."
I suspect that's the (deliberate?) subliminal associations of the
'strange' name.
[snip long list of names]
I'm not sure you're proving much save that Christie tends to stereotype
her names - and perhaps that Rowling's may be a little old-fashioned :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
** Sometimes change is improvement. Sometimes it is only change. **
jules...@gmail.com
Marcello Musumeci
> This document attempts to summarize the striking similarities between
> characters and general work of Agatha Christie and J.K. Rowling. I
> first began to look for similarities between the collective body of
> work of each author about a year ago, when I first noticed that the
> mystery-story type plot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
> reminded me a lot of the way Agatha Christie wrote- and especially in
> the way she and J.K. Rowling toss their 'red herrings' around.
> In no way do I mean to imply by these lists, quotes, and
> connections, that J.K. Rowling purposefully (or even knowingly) copied
> or attempted to imitate Agatha Christie's work. I believe it was
> Picasso who said "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." I believe
> which we read and enjoy has a large impact upon our future writing, an
> surprising, perhaps, to have found many similarities between both
> Christie's and Rowling's work.
> Something to keep in mind before you read this is the fact that
> Christie was one of the most prolific writers ever- she published over
> 80 novels. Rowling has (so far) published 5, as well as some
> additional spin-off material based on those main 5. Therefore, one
> *could* argue that any British names Rowling chose were bound to
> appear in Christie's work as well. However, as literary fans will
> note, some authors appear to have 'favorite' names, using a particular
> name over and over again in different stories and for different
> characters. I note the fact that 'Hermione', 'Harry' (NOT 'Harold'),
> and 'Ron' are used multiple times throughout the body of Christie's
> work, and of those three, 'Harry' appears the most number of times.
> Others, like Lupin, Hedwig, Bulstrode, Pettigrew, etc, appear only
> once. These are far more likely to be coincidences, in my opinion,
> than proof of the subconsious as an influence upon the writing mind.
> As an author myself, I realize that any argument attempting to
> assert the influences upon another author's work are bound to be full
> of incorrect assumptions and flaws. However, I put this list together
> primarily for fun, and secondly, as a challenge- to see if any other
> fans of both Christie and Rowling (or other authors!) care to make a
> similar list. This list has taken me quite a lot of time and effort
> and I'd appreciate any feedback or comments emailed to me at
> mattie...@yahoo.com. I also include the disclaimer that this is a
> list IN PROGRESS, and will probably be changed and posted/reposted at
> my website whenever a new version has been created. (Located here:
> http://www.geocities.com/mattiemayson/) I hope to expand the
> connections I make in Rowling's work to other authors as well, and
> would welcome the help and contributions of those who are interested.
> You will probably note the fact that this list is unfortunately
> uncomplete, and I have failed to cite exactly in which book the names
> are found. I hope to accomplish this in future versions of this list.
> This is an extremely rough draft. All quotes are copyright to the
> author to which they are attributed.
>
> Possible Literary Connections between J.K. Rowling and Agatha
> Christie....
> Mythical Creature References:
> "Mrs. L's not exactly a chicken, but she's a damned good-looking
> woman. Rather like those fairy women who come out of marshes with
> lights and lure you away." (Agatha Christie, "Murder in
> Mesopotamia")
>
> During the Defense Against the Dark Arts class in Rowling's
> Prisoner of Azkaban, the class faced a similar mythical creature.
> Despite research on the subject, I have been unable to come up with
> references to this type of creature in other literature.
> Basilisks:
> In several books, Christie references the basilisk in order to
> refer to a character who has a 'frozen' look on his or her face. The
> most notable example is in "The Mirror Crack'd"
> "Was the woman going to faint? What on earth could she be seeing that
> gave her that basilisk look?" ....
> (Later on, describing the look...) "She had kind of a frozen look,"
> said Mrs. Bantry, struggling with words, "as though she'd seen
> something that- oh, dear me, how hard it is to describe things. Do you
> remember the Lady of Shalott? The mirror crack'd from side to side;
> 'the doom has come upon me' cried the Lady of Shalott.'"
> being frozen (specifically, 'petrified') are a common theme.
> In Christie's book, Murder for Christmas, I came across this quote:
> "'I can remember every word and incident of those days perfectly,'
> said David passionately.
> 'Yes, but you shouldn't, my dear! It isn't natural to do so!.....I
> think,' she said, 'that you're seeing your father as a Bogy! You're
> exalting him into a kind of personification of Evil. Probably, if you
> were to see him now, you would realize that he was only a very
> ordinary man; a man, perhaps, whose passions ran away with him, a man
> whose life was far from blameless, but nevertheless merely a man-- not
> a kind of inhuman Monster!.....'
> 'And you want me to go?'
> Hilda hesitated, then she suddenly made up her mind.
> for all.'"
> The 'Bogy' can be compared to Harry Potter's "Boggart", a mythical
> creature which takes the shape of the worst fear of whoever views it.
> saying a spell.
> To summarize:
> bogies (boggarts), fairy women holding lights- all which can also be
> found in Harry Potter, and which are extremely uncommon mythological
> creatures. They are all so uncommon that none of them were used by
> C.S. Lewis in his Narnia fantasy series, though he uses almost every
> Tolkien- though a faint connection to Tolkien might be made in a
> parallell to the bodies of the slain elves who lay in the dead marshes
> and beckon people to join them.
> of Dorothy Sayers' mystery novels, "The Nine Tailors". Sayers was a
> contemporary of Christie.
>
> In "The Man in the Brown Suit", Christie features a character named
> Miss Pettigrew, described as a ugly woman, who turns out to be much
> more than she seems.
> Eventually, Miss Pettigrew disappears, and it is eventually revealed
> that she was actually a man in disguise- a criminal who was
> masquerading as a woman. However, he is not the book's master
> criminal, but only the right-hand man. Similarly, Peter Pettigrew in
> the Harry Potter Series masqueraded as a rat for years, until forced
> to turn back into his human form. He then rejoined his 'master', Lord
> Voldemort, and helped him regain his body.
> Arabella
> The name "Arabella" is used as the name of a pet cat of Mrs.
> Hemmings in Agatha Christie's "The Clocks." Mrs. Hemmings is a
> neighbor who is described as being very scatty, and who collects cats-
> she has about 14. Two little boys live nearby and delight in
> tormenting her cats.
>
> In the Harry Potter Series, Arabella Figg is the scatty neighbor of
> the Dursleys, who have two boys. Arabella Figg loves cats, and is the
> same personality type as Mrs. Hemmings.
> Bulgaria and Romania
> countries of Christie's throughout her body of work. She especially
> uses both Romania and Bulgaria for political intrigue (Man in the
> Brown Suit, The Secret of Chimneys, Murder on the Orient Express,
> numerous short stories, etc.) These countries are mentioned in
> Rowling's work as well. Bulgaria plays one side of the Quidditch world
> cup. Romania is where Charlie Weasley works with dragons.
>
> Numerous murders occur on trains, take place as a result of trains
> (the most famous being Murder on the Orient Express) or are centered
> around trains (The ABC murders.) While the fact that the British
> public has seemingly always been enamoured with trains, this may not
> makes numerous references to the books of E. Nesbit, one of the
> books have also been cited as a childhood favorite of Rowling's. It is
> interesting to wonder what subconsious influences Nesbit might have
> had on both Rowling and Christie.
> Curious coincidences?
>
> The name Lestrange is found in "Murder at the Vicarage." Mrs.
> Lestrange is described as "the mysterious woman with the pale,
> beautiful face..there was something sinister about her."
>
> unbidden into my mind: This woman would stick at nothing....Mrs.
> Lestrange rose to meet me. I was struck anew by the marvelous
> atmosphere that this woman could create. She wore a dress of some
> dead-black material that showed off the extraordinary fairness of her
> skin. There was something curiously dead about her face. Only the eyes
> were burningly alive."
> Curiously enough, Mrs. Lestrange is married to a character named
> Lucius in that book. "You don't know what my life is like. I've been
> miserable with Lucius from the beginning. No woman could be happy with
> him."
> -Noted in numerous stories (The Man in the Brown Suit being one):
> Marge, Harry as first names. Harold as a first name is occasionally
> used (once or twice, compared to dozens of uses of Harry). "Harry" is
> almost always a young man, usually engaged, around 20 years old in her
> stories.
> -Ronald and Ron are names used by Christie in numerous stories,
> and apart from one instance in the book "At Bertram's Hotel", all the
> characters of that name are young. Some are actually children, others,
> teenagers or in their 20s or 30s. Christie even specifies that 'Ron'
> has shockingly red hair in several novels.
> -In Christie's novel "Sleeping Murder," Lily and James are a young
> married couple. In another 'Miss Marple' Mystery, characters named
> Lily and Harry are engaged. A couple named Lily and Arthur are married
> in one of her short stories.
> -Of the two occurances of the name "Granger" in Christie's novels
> (one spelled "Grainger") one is a doctor. The character of Hermione
> Granger, in J.K. Rowling's novels, has expressed an interest in
> becoming a 'healer', or the magical world's equivalent of a doctor.
>
> - Though the characters she choses to name Harry have occasionally
> been responsible for an accident or injury (The Mirror Crack'd) Harry
> has never been chosen as the name of an actual 'bad guy'. All the
> seperate Harry's mishaps come about from inaction, accidents, or
> smaller crimes (petty theft, etc.) However, Harry IS portrayed in a
> couple stories as having a 'questionable character.' Harry is always
> portrayed by Christie as a youth or man in his 20s.
> -The name Hermione has been used by Christie multiple times, usually
> for a young, main character. In Three Act Tragedy her nickname is
> "Egg".
> -While there is no location in any of Agatha Christie's novels
> called "The Burrow," there is a Major Burrows, and he appears in the
> same story (and frequently the same sentence) as Major Riddle, AND
> another character called Tom.
> -Christie's murder mystery which takes place at a boarding school,
> features a sentence with the words "Bulstrode" and "Hedwig" in it,
> together. The Harry Potter novels take place at a boarding school,
> frequently involve mysteries including and involving murder. The name
> of Harry's owl is Hedwig, and a classmate of his is named Millicent
> Bulstrode.
>
> From "Murder For Christmas" by Christie........
> "And of course there's Harry - "
> He stopped, slightly embarrassed.
> "Harry?" said Magdalene, surprised. "Who is Harry?"
> "Ah - er - my brother."
> "I never knew you had another brother."
> "My dear, he wasn't a great - er - credit - to us. We don't mention
> him. His behaviour was disgraceful. We haven't heard anything of him
> for some years now. He's probably dead."
> Magdalene laughed suddenly.
> "What is it? What are you laughing at?"
> Magdalene said:
> "I was only thinking how funny it was that you - you, George, should
> have a disreputable brother! You're so very respectable."
> "I should hope so," said George coldly.
> Her eyes narrowed."
> This attitude toward the character of Harry is similar to the
> one Vernon and Petunia show toward Lily, James, and Harry Potter in
> the Harry Potter series. They are overly paranoid about being
> 'respectable' and because of this, they don't 'mention' Lily and
> James. It is ironic that the name Harry should be the one used here as
> well.
> - In Christie's book, "Appointment with Death," a young girl with
> bright red hair who has been hypnotized and manipulated by a much
> stronger personality becomes a suspect when that person is killed. Her
> name is given as Ginevra, but is called "Ginny" for short. A parallell
> can be made to Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Tom Riddle, an
> older boy with a dominating personality, manages to control Ginny and
> get her to open the Chamber of Secrets.
>
> must be used by both of them in order to make this list)
>
> Harry
> Harold
> James
> Potter
> Lily
> Evans
> Mark
> Vernon
> Marge
> Ronald (young child with shockingly red hair)
> Ron
> Hermione
> Granger (two occurances in Christie's work, one spelled "Grainger")
> Neville (In Christie's work, spelled "Nevile and Nevill")
> Longbottom
> Susan
> Hannah
> Abbott
> Lee
> Jordan
> Colin
> Dennis
> Seamus
> Michael
> Oliver
> Wood
> Millicent
> Bulstrode
> Hedwig
> Fred
> George
> Percy
> Bill
> Charlie
> Ginny (Ginevra, whose nickname is Ginny in "Appointment with Death")
> Molly
> Arthur
> Peter
> Pettigrew
> Lupin
> Black
> Tom
> Riddle
> Binns
> Poppy
> Arabella
> Sybil
> Trelawny
> Lestrange
> Lucius
> Delores
> Viktor (spelled "Victor" in Christie's books)
> Nick
> Baron
> Cornelius
> Roberts
> Specific Breakdown of First and Last Names (Surnames) shared
> between Christie/Rowling Stories:
>
> Surnames:
> Evans
> Potter
> Longbottom
> Abbott
> Jordan
> Johnson
> Wood
> Hedwig
> Bulstrode
> Riddle
> Trelawny
> Granger
> Pettigrew
> Black
> Lestrange
> Binns
> Roberts
> First Names:
> Harry
> Harold
> James
> Lily
> Mark
> Vernon
> Marge
> Ronald (young child with shockingly red hair)
> Ron
> Hermione
> Neville (Nevile and Nevill)
> Lee
> Hannah
> Seamus
> Michael
> Oliver
> Susan
> Fred
> George
> Percy
> Charlie
> Bill
> Molly
> Arthur
> Peter
> Millicent
> Arabella
> Tom
> Sybil
> Poppy
> Delores
> Viktor (Victor)
> Mark
> Colin
> Dennis
> Nick
> Cornelius
> Lucius
> Characters who are "bad guys" in both books:
> (in order to qualify for this category, the name must be used in a
> negative context in every single story in which it appears, for both
> Christie and Rowling's books.)
> Lucius
> Pettigrew
> Lestrange
> Delores
>
> **************************************
> end list
Hey, I noticed a few of these myself a few years ago and wound up writing a short essay about it here - https://marcellomu.com/blog/2018/8/31/j-k-rowling-is-not-a-fantasy-writer. I just made a Youtube video about it too, and just wanted to let you know I linked to this post. I also wanted to say thank you for this, it's really awesome and has played a big part in my literary theorizing in my adult life.
the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyM4RXEJG_4