The black students of Harry Potter
liquorhead
Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2/harryp/index.html
-Robert
John VanSickle
>
> Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of
> Harry Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
Since blacks are an even smaller minority in the UK than they are in
the US, it isn't really that surprising that they're aren't a whole
lot of them at Hogwart's.
Regards,
John
Jonathan Buzzard
In addition admision is purely on the basis of children of magical ability
being born in the British Isles. It may also be that magical members of
the community are less likely to emigrate than non-magical members which
would further drive down the number of none white students at Hogwarts.
Further for example it almost certain that the Patil twins are ethinically
from the Indian subcontinent but their skin colour or origin is never
mentioned, and if Cho Chang is similarly not from east asia then I
will eat my hat.
JAB.
--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jona...@buzzard.org.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44(0)1661-832195
The Eternal Lost Lurker (I possess the sound for thine donkey!)
"liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:23NW9.1569$Nh...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of Harry
> Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
"Neat"? When this person obviously has never TOUCHED any of the books?
When this person obviously doesn't take into consideration that Britain is
not the United States?
Three NAMED black students at Hogwarts -- Lee, Dean, and Angelina. (The guy
would KNOW those last two had names if he'd ever picked up a Harry Potter
book in his life...)
Possibly more that just haven't been named because they're not terribly
important.
That's quite a few black students for a wizarding school in the UK, with a
student body of less than 1000, all of whom are rare and unique enough as it
is, being wizards and all.
I call one Mr. Robert Berry on ten counts of grandstanding, rabble-rousing,
ignorance of non-US cultures, and general idiocy.
--
-------------------------------------------
Studio ELL: Dubya Don't Like It
http://www.lurkerdrome.com
The Eternal Lost Lurker
Supporter of Harry/Cho
Sinker of Harry/Ginny ships
liquorhead
"The Eternal Lost Lurker (I possess the sound for thine donkey!)"
<ell4...@sbcglowball.net> wrote in message
news:%JUW9.221$5m.280...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:23NW9.1569$Nh...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of
Harry
> > Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
>
> "Neat"? When this person obviously has never TOUCHED any of the books?
Well, I've read the first 3, so obviously you're wrong.
> When this person obviously doesn't take into consideration that Britain is
> not the United States?
Uhhh, thanks for pointing that out, Einstein.
> Three NAMED black students at Hogwarts -- Lee, Dean, and Angelina. (The
guy
> would KNOW those last two had names if he'd ever picked up a Harry Potter
> book in his life...)
Sorry I missed that tidbit. The film doesn't name them, that's for sure,
and that's my focus.
> I call one Mr. Robert Berry on ten counts of grandstanding,
rabble-rousing,
> ignorance of non-US cultures, and general idiocy.
And I'm calling America's Most Wanted to put out an all points bulletin. It
appears somebody abducted your ability to detect sarcasm.
> The Eternal Lost Lurker
> Supporter of Harry/Cho
> Sinker of Harry/Ginny ships
Eh... gotta go with Ginny. Never cross a redhead.
-Robert
Adam
>
> I call one Mr. Robert Berry on ten counts of grandstanding,
rabble-rousing,
> ignorance of non-US cultures, and general idiocy.
go back and check his website again, he has put in a new message at the
bottom!
Andrew
This whole discussion brings up a nifty point about the series and
illustrates some of the subtleties of JKR's writing.
IMO one of the developing themes of the series is a powerful
anti-racism message. The whole "mudblood" vs. "pure blood" is a
metaphor for racism and the fight against it. Consider that all of
the people who have gone on record as being for discrimination against
mudbloods are either portrayed as evil (Voldemort and the malfoy's) or
stupid (Cornelius Fudge). This obviously tells you where JKR is on
the issue; she is against it.
So far we are talking about some fairly obvious points.
Let us take this a little farther. Which rather large family is
portrayed as believing in the equality of all wizards regardless of
their lineage; the Weasleys. They are so strong in their belief that
this has impaired Arthur Weasley's career at the Ministry of Magic.
His views on this has obviously been inherited by his children.
As far as I know there are only two black characters mentioned in the
Canon. Lee Jordan and Angelina (one of the Gryfindor chasers). Lee
Jordan is best friends with the Weasley twins and Angelina was one of
the twins dates at the Yule Ball. The ease in which either fred or
George gets his date indicates that there is something going on
between them; I am thinking that they already have a
boyfriend/girlfriend relationship at this point.
This is totally cool. JKR is reinforcing the anti-racism metaphor by
actually referencing the object of the metaphor. The Weasley's are
not "metaphorically" racist; this is re-inforced by making the
weasley's not "actually" racist. Not only is this totally cool, this
is totally subtle. (I say subtle because it took me at least 1/2
dozen readings of the book to figure this out).
Cheers
Andrew
P.S. Notice how the term "muggle lover" has the exact same rhythm as
a similar used by Southern Racists to refer too people who weren't
racist.
Troels Forchhammer
It is a strength in the books that we're actually not told the skin
colour of any of the students. The only thing to identify anyone who is
possibly not of traditional north-european descent is by name - nothing
else is called for (I know that the Scholastic version makes Dean Thomas
a black boy - but I consider that particular change an abomination!).
This of course fits with the general theme of acceptance and tolerance;
the magical community are given their own prejudices that are shown to
be unfounded and ridiculous, and we are taught that blood matters not!
The same goes for the real world prejudices - it doesn't matter what
Cho looks like - we only need to know that Harry has a crush on her.
It is a weakness for the movie that this cannot be done as elegantly -
but it is a far worse denial of the moral message of the author to
start worrying about it - it is unimportant!
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
\\\\\//
"Don't take life so seriously... | |
...it's only a temporary condition." (.) (.)
========================================oOO==(_)==OOo==
Dragon Friend
news:3E2C3ECB...@ThisIsFake.fk...
> John VanSickle wrote:
> >
> > liquorhead wrote:
> >>
> >> Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of
> >> Harry Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
> >
> > Since blacks are an even smaller minority in the UK than they are in
> > the US, it isn't really that surprising that they're aren't a whole
> > lot of them at Hogwart's.
>
> It is a strength in the books that we're actually not told the skin
> colour of any of the students. The only thing to identify anyone who is
> possibly not of traditional north-european descent is by name - nothing
> else is called for (I know that the Scholastic version makes Dean Thomas
> a black boy - but I consider that particular change an abomination!).
Yes why did they feel the need to do that, it is just so daft to make a
change like that.
>
> This of course fits with the general theme of acceptance and tolerance;
> the magical community are given their own prejudices that are shown to
> be unfounded and ridiculous, and we are taught that blood matters not!
> The same goes for the real world prejudices - it doesn't matter what
> Cho looks like - we only need to know that Harry has a crush on her.
>
> It is a weakness for the movie that this cannot be done as elegantly -
> but it is a far worse denial of the moral message of the author to
> start worrying about it - it is unimportant!
Not sure how much about the production of the movies people hear outside of
the UK, but the children who are in the big crowd scenes (such as the
feasts) are not actually auditioned as extras. They come from one or two of
the schools local (this was according to the BBC News) to where those scenes
are filmed and they literally just take children from each school year, so
as I believe JAB stated in one of his earlier replies the lack of ethnic
characters is more a reflection of that lack in parts of the UK. We do have
a lot of ethnic minorities in the UK but they tend to be more dominant in
some areas than others, for example if they took the children from say a
school in Longsight (Greater Manchester) which is an area known as little
India they may actually have more children whose origins are from the
various regions of India and Pakistan than white children. I am not trying
to make racist comments here I am just trying to point out to non-Brits
reading the group that we have ethnic minorities in Britain, not as many as
in the USA (which is a larger land mass) but through some quirk they tend to
gather together in one town. Example the town nearest where I live has very
few coloured people in it, we have a lot of people of Polish origin a few
Orientals and a few from India or Pakistan. The town 15 miles away from me
has a very high percentage of West Indians as such they have just twinned
the town with a town in the West Indies.
>
Dragon Friend
~~~
"Humanity... so noble, always willing to sacrifice... the other fellow." ~~
Max von Sydow in NEEDFUL THINGS.
"...perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who are only waiting
to see us once beautiful
and brave..." By Rainer Maria Rilke
Check out these websites http://www.maxvonsydow.net
http://www.maxvonsydow.da.ru
Ksnidget
<dragonNO...@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip>
> I am just trying to point out to non-Brits
>reading the group that we have ethnic minorities in Britain, not as many as
>in the USA (which is a larger land mass) but through some quirk they tend to
>gather together in one town.
Actually you see a lot of that here in the US as well.
I think it is common for people generally, not just in the UK.
People who immigrate often seek out others from the
same country. You have someone around who understands
your culture, can answer your questions, etc.
My Dad grew up in a little town in Canada and never learned
English until he went to school because so many other
Estonians lived in the same town there was no need to
learn to speak anything else. The next town over was
almost all Finnish.
In the US we do get a phenomenon where people tend to
settle in areas of the country where they recognize the
weather. People from snowy homelands tended to settle
in the upper Midwest where it is really snowy, for example.
I don't think weather plays as much of a role these days, but
it seems that it used to be a major part of where people settled.
K.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:d8VW9.686$A56.5...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
But he still kept the Site up. If he really took this info to heart, he'd
chance the whole thin to reflect the new info.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"May the forces of evil get confused on the way to your house."
-George Carlin.
Weird Beard
news:E_UW9.788$AL.367...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:
>
> Sorry I missed that tidbit. The film doesn't name them, that's for
> sure, and that's my focus.
>
Did you notice that *every* character is less developed in the movie?
Dumbledore's humorous side is reduced to the line about earwax, Fred and
George get only one funny bit, Percy isn't the slightest bit pompous, and
never gets teased, the only way we have of knowing that the Weasleys aren't
well of is because Draco mentions something, we're never told *why* Ron
sees what he sees in the mirror, and Hermione annoying Ron in class comes
off as an isolated incident.
If they couldn't find room to develop the main characters, why would they
treat the peripheral characters any better?
--
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your
mouth, particularly if the thing is cats." --Lemony Snicket
Doug
news:Xns9309A141715FDwe...@204.127.36.1:
> "liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> wrote in
> news:E_UW9.788$AL.367...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:
>
>>
>> Sorry I missed that tidbit. The film doesn't name them, that's for
>> sure, and that's my focus.
>>
> Did you notice that *every* character is less developed in the movie?
> Dumbledore's humorous side is reduced to the line about earwax, Fred
> and George get only one funny bit, Percy isn't the slightest bit
> pompous, and never gets teased, the only way we have of knowing that
> the Weasleys aren't well of is because Draco mentions something, we're
> never told *why* Ron sees what he sees in the mirror, and Hermione
> annoying Ron in class comes off as an isolated incident.
>
> If they couldn't find room to develop the main characters, why would
> they treat the peripheral characters any better?
>
I do believe that there is one character who is black that has not been
mentioned for this thread, Dean Thomas (I think in the book he is
characterized as being black.. yet as I do not have the book-PS/SS, I
cannot check.
--
Dib: Chickenfoot! Come back! You're not a freak! You're just stupid!
The Eternal Lost Lurker (I possess the sound for thine donkey!)
> >
> > "Neat"? When this person obviously has never TOUCHED any of the books?
>
> Well, I've read the first 3, so obviously you're wrong.
"Obviously" you're an idiot.
> > Three NAMED black students at Hogwarts -- Lee, Dean, and Angelina. (The
> guy
> > would KNOW those last two had names if he'd ever picked up a Harry
Potter
> > book in his life...)
>
> Sorry I missed that tidbit. The film doesn't name them, that's for sure,
> and that's my focus.
Then your focus is invalid, and so is your opinion.
> > I call one Mr. Robert Berry on ten counts of grandstanding,
> rabble-rousing,
> > ignorance of non-US cultures, and general idiocy.
>
> And I'm calling America's Most Wanted to put out an all points bulletin.
It
> appears somebody abducted your ability to detect sarcasm.
I can detect sarcasm just fine, thanks. I can also detect dipshits just
fine, and I'm detecting a big one right now.
--
-------------------------------------------
Studio ELL: Dubya Don't Like It
http://www.lurkerdrome.com
The Eternal Lost Lurker
Troels Forchhammer
>
> But he still kept the Site up. If he really took this info to
> heart, he'd chance the whole thin to reflect the new info.
Like taking it down?
As a realisation that any focusing on the race of a person in the
Harry Potter books is a derision of the ethical message in the books.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
liquorhead
> > > "Neat"? When this person obviously has never TOUCHED any of the books?
> >
> > Well, I've read the first 3, so obviously you're wrong.
>
> "Obviously" you're an idiot.
Hey, good comeback. You state something that's wrong, I tell you so, then
you call me an idiot. Good job.
> > > book in his life...)
> >
> > Sorry I missed that tidbit. The film doesn't name them, that's for
sure,
> > and that's my focus.
>
> Then your focus is invalid, and so is your opinion.
Wha? That makes no sense. Why is focusing on the movie invalid? An
opinion can't be invalid either, it's just an opinion. Though I'm sure
everything you say is all knowing truths, some of us aren't blessed with
such omniscience.
> I can detect sarcasm just fine, thanks. I can also detect dipshits just
> fine, and I'm detecting a big one right now.
Maybe you should try some laxative for that problem.
-Robert
jazmyn
allow characters that are not from the books to be ANYTHING but
British.
I used to have a friend who was black and raised in the UK. Always blew
people away that he had a VERY heavy British accent.
Fish Eye no Miko
> An opinion can't be invalid either, it's just an opinion.
That's not true. An opinion based on false (invalid) information can be
invalid. The idea that every opinion is equal and valid is simply not
true.
liquorhead
>
> That's not true. An opinion based on false (invalid) information can be
> invalid. The idea that every opinion is equal and valid is simply not
> true.
>
> Catherine Johnson.
Well again, my choice to only focus on the movies is not invalid
information. Clearly there's differences between the written and moving
picture versions of the story that exist and will continue to.
gjw
in England.
In the U.S., black people make up about 10% to 13% of the general
population.
From what I could find, in England they make up only about 0.4% to
0.6%.
(See http://www.nat.org.uk/documents/LITERATUREREVIEWFINAL.doc )
So, if Hogwarts has 1,000 students, it's unlikely that there would be
more than six black students at the school.
Tom
> So, if Hogwarts has 1,000 students, it's unlikely that there would be
> more than six black students at the school.
>
unlikely to be 1000.
Mr. Berry counted 272 places in the banquet hall
ref: http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2/harryp/index.html
By my calculations, there'd be 280 students, pretty close to his number.
In CoS it's plainly stated that there are 5 2nd year boys in Gryffindor.
5 boys x 2 = 10 m&f 2nd years in G.
10 x 4 houses = 40 2nd years
40 x 7 years = 280 total students.
Anyone know anything to contradict this line of reasoning?
jazmyn
In an interview the author said there are 'around 1000 students' at
Hoggwarts
So I guess they all eat in shifts in the movie? Or the movie didn't
have the budget for 1000 students all in the hall at the same time.
Going by the movie, when Percy asked the 'first years to follow him to
the dorms', I counted over 20 kids following him into the commons...
Fish Eye no Miko
> > > An opinion can't be invalid either, it's just an opinion.
> >
> > That's not true. An opinion based on false (invalid) information
> > can be invalid. The idea that every opinion is equal and valid is
> > simply not true.
>
> Well again, my choice to only focus on the movies is not invalid
> information.
Of course. Notice that I'm only replying to your assertion that an opinion
can't be invalid. It's just that I see this on Usenet a fair amount,
and... well, I like pointing out that it's not true.
> Clearly there's differences between the written and moving
> picture versions of the story that exist and will continue to.
This is quite true. ^_^
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"_Wild, Wild World of Batwoman_ always amazes me. It is truly a testament
to having a camera, shooting things, and thinking it's a movie."
-nospam, rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> In an interview the author said there are 'around 1000 students' at
> Hoggwarts
She has also shown us her notes about Harry's year, and it contains
only 41 students (which - if average - makes for 287 students).
Ref: <http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/>
It may be below average, but not by a factor of 3½, which is what
is needed to make it 1000 in all.
--
______ | Troels Forchhammer
___/L_][_/(__ | Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
(___{__{__{___7 |
`(_)------(_)-' | My other .sig is a Rolls ...
Markku Uttula
>> In an interview the author said there are 'around 1000 students' at
>> Hoggwarts
>
> She has also shown us her notes about Harry's year, and it contains
> only 41 students (which - if average - makes for 287 students).
> Ref: <http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/>
Perhaps her notes only show people who are referenced to in some way. No
reason to just say "Harry passed a student whose name he doesn't know"
for the sake of saying it. If you are in school with 1000 students, it's
very probable, you don't know too many of them by name. Only the ones
you do, or are of any importance to the story in some way, need to be
mentioned in the books...
--
Markku Uttula
URL: http://www.disconova.com/utu/ "Are you hot? Or at least cute?"
MAIL: markku...@disconova.com "If not, are you at least easy?"
Jonathan Buzzard
"liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> writes:
[SNIP]
>
> Well again, my choice to only focus on the movies is not invalid
> information. Clearly there's differences between the written and moving
> picture versions of the story that exist and will continue to.
>
Whatever the fact remains is that you are a jerk, who printed
some extremelly offensive suggestions which are totally wide
of the mark. Grovelling appologies are the only honorable
thing that you can do.
Jonathan Buzzard
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> writes:
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>>
>> But he still kept the Site up. If he really took this info to
>> heart, he'd chance the whole thin to reflect the new info.
>
> Like taking it down?
>
> As a realisation that any focusing on the race of a person in the
> Harry Potter books is a derision of the ethical message in the books.
>
Actually I think he should have replaced it with a complete and
total groveling appology to JKR and Warner Brothers that he failed
to check what the ethnic mix of the U.K. was before printing some
pretty offensive conclusions. When in fact the ethinc mix in
Hogwarts appears by his own study to closely mirror that of
the U.K.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Perhaps her notes only show people who are referenced to in some way.
<snip>
That was - IIRC - not the story in the documentary.
I remember her as saying that she had 'the whole of Harry's year'
worked out (or something like that), but perhaps someone who has
the documentary on tape could tell us.
--
________________________________
| Troels Forchhammer |
/)| Valid mail is |(\
/ )| t.forch(a)mail.dk |( \
_( (|________________________________|) )_
((( \ \ > /_) ( \ < / / )))
(\\\ \ \_/ / \ \_/ / ///)
\ / \ /
\ _/ \_ /
/ / \ \
The Dude
> >
> > liquorhead wrote:
> >>
> >> Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of
> >> Harry Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
> >
> > Since blacks are an even smaller minority in the UK than they are in
> > the US, it isn't really that surprising that they're aren't a whole
> > lot of them at Hogwart's.
>
> It is a strength in the books that we're actually not told the skin
> colour of any of the students. The only thing to identify anyone who is
> possibly not of traditional north-european descent is by name - nothing
> else is called for (I know that the Scholastic version makes Dean Thomas
> a black boy - but I consider that particular change an abomination!).
>
> This of course fits with the general theme of acceptance and tolerance;
> the magical community are given their own prejudices that are shown to
> be unfounded and ridiculous, and we are taught that blood matters not!
> The same goes for the real world prejudices - it doesn't matter what
> Cho looks like - we only need to know that Harry has a crush on her.
of course it matters what cho looks like! she's gotta be cute!
Tom
> jazmyn wrote:
>>
>> In an interview the author said there are 'around 1000 students' at
>> Hoggwarts
>
> She has also shown us her notes about Harry's year, and it contains
> only 41 students (which - if average - makes for 287 students).
> Ref: <http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/>
>
> It may be below average, but not by a factor of 3½, which is what
> is needed to make it 1000 in all.
>
Thanks for the input, Troels and jaz.
I found one more web site with info on the subject
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html
(mostly, but not entirely, supporting the 280 to 300 thesis)
John VanSickle
>
> An opinion can't be invalid either, it's just an opinion.
True, but an opinion can be worthless.
Regards,
John
Naminanu
Harry Potter hasn't got any students.
He isn't a teacher. (Yet.)
Will
Tennant Stuart
bo...@lao.on.ca (Andrew) wrote:
> As far as I know there are only two black characters mentioned in the
> Canon. Lee Jordan and Angelina (one of the Gryfindor chasers).
Her full name is Angelina Johnson.
And as far as I know it's three, you forgot Dean Thomas, Harry's roomie.
The Patil sisters and Cho Chang are probably not Caucasians, either.
On top of that, there could be other black students whose skin colour
has not been mentioned - it's not an important issue. According to the
movie versions, *two* of the Gryffindor Chasers are black girls.
Tennant Stuart
--
____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____
(_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family
)( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours
(__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR
Tom
> In article <96df7c95.03012...@posting.google.com>,
> bo...@lao.on.ca (Andrew) wrote:
>
>> As far as I know there are only two black characters mentioned in the
>> Canon. Lee Jordan and Angelina (one of the Gryfindor chasers).
>
> Her full name is Angelina Johnson.
>
> And as far as I know it's three, you forgot Dean Thomas, Harry's roomie.
>
Is he described as black in the UK version, or only in the american
version?
The line about him in the sorting hat scene is apparently only in the US
version.
gjw
Yes. The author.
Go to http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/scholastic2.shtml and read JK
Rowling's answer to the question: "How many students attend Hogwarts?"
Jonathan Buzzard
John VanSickle <evilsna...@hotmail.com> writes:
> liquorhead wrote:
>>
>> An opinion can't be invalid either, it's just an opinion.
>
> True, but an opinion can be worthless.
>
No an opinion can in fact be entirely invalid. We can start off on
the hard and fast physics ones, like having an opinion that the
speed of light in a vaccum is 4x10e9 metres per second. Or if
I where to have the opinion that there where 67 states in the United
States of American.
Basically an opinion can always be wrong if there are hard facts to
invalidate it.
On a Harry Potter scale, I could have the opinion that Arabella Figg
and Mrs. Figg are not related in any way shape or form. At the moment
we don't know for sure if this opinion is valid. It may well however
be utterly invalid, and come June 21st we will probably find out
one way or another.
However post June 21st someone who has not read book five might still
have an opinion on the subject, which depending on what it is could be
invalid.
In the context of this thread the opinion that the movies show that
Hogwarts has a descriminatry entrance policy for ethnic minorities
is also invalid.
The notion that *no* opinion is invalid is for the feable minded,
as it ignores the reality that you cannot have a VALID opinion that
is in contradiction of the facts. It does not stop you having the
opinion, it just means that it is invalid, and if you stick to
the opinion then you are moronic fool.
Tom
Yes, someone else pointed that out as well. Still, I find it to be a very
unsatisfying answer, since I just can't find evidence of that many
students in the books ( or in the first movie ).
John VanSickle
>
> No an opinion can in fact be entirely invalid. We can start off on
> the hard and fast physics ones, like having an opinion that the
> speed of light in a vaccum is 4x10e9 metres per second. Or if
> I where to have the opinion that there where 67 states in the United
> States of American.
This is manifestly silly. You are equating opinion with belief.
The idea that c=4e10^9 m/s is not an opinion; it is a falsehood.
> Basically an opinion can always be wrong if there are hard facts to
> invalidate it.
The concept of validity does not apply to opinions. Opinions are
value judgments, and are the result of the value system of the person
holding the opinion in question. Since value systems include data,
an opinion can be valueless. If a person is ignorant about a subject,
their opinions about the subject are either unexamined whims or are
simply borrowed from others, second-hand.
> On a Harry Potter scale, I could have the opinion that Arabella Figg
> and Mrs. Figg are not related in any way shape or form. At the moment
> we don't know for sure if this opinion is valid.
Aside from concrete statements made by JKR, well, no, we don't.
jazmyn
> Theres as many students as the author needs there to be. If she needs
1000 for a scene, there are.. If she needs 10 for a scene, there are.
Does it really matter how many students there are in a fictional school
anyways? If she said 1000, then she must need there to be that many.
(lots of red shirts to die if the books get really dark?)
Troels Forchhammer
>
> The idea that c=4e10^9 m/s is not an opinion; it is a falsehood.
<snip>
It all depends on what definition of 'opinion' you work with.
AskOxford.com has:
<http://www.askoxford.com/dictionary/opinion?view=uk>
1 unproven belief.
2 view held as probable.
3 professional advice.
4 estimation.
opinion poll assessment of public opinion by questioning
representative sample.
·assessment, attitude, belief, comment, conclusion, conjecture,
conviction, estimate, estimation, feeling, guess, idea,
impression, judgement, notion, perception, point of view,
sentiment, theory, thought, view, viewpoint, way of thinking.
while Merriam Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, 10th Edition has:
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=opinion>
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about
a particular matter
b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than
positive knowledge
b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert
b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee)
of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal
decision is based
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Thomas Madura
Well - it would seem that there would have to be large number of
students just to fullfill the requirements for the Pro Quidditch teams
alone. . If you look at Diagon alley alone - and note that there is also
Hogsmead - the number of Witches and Wizards there indicates that there
must be more schools that just Hogwarts as well.
Markku Uttula
> Well - it would seem that there would have to be large number of
> students just to fullfill the requirements for the Pro Quidditch teams
> alone. . If you look at Diagon alley alone - and note that there is
> also Hogsmead - the number of Witches and Wizards there indicates
> that there must be more schools that just Hogwarts as well.
But there are. Hasn't anybody read "Hogswart, a History"? :)
Jonathan Buzzard
John VanSickle <evilsna...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Jonathan Buzzard wrote:
>>
>> No an opinion can in fact be entirely invalid. We can start off on
>> the hard and fast physics ones, like having an opinion that the
>> speed of light in a vaccum is 4x10e9 metres per second. Or if
>> I where to have the opinion that there where 67 states in the United
>> States of American.
>
> This is manifestly silly. You are equating opinion with belief.
Yes that is what an opinion is.
> The idea that c=4e10^9 m/s is not an opinion; it is a falsehood.
Exactly if you hold then opinion that it is so then your opinion is
wrong. One could point out that 200 years ago you could have held
an opinion as you would like to think on the speed of light, it
could have equated it to 4e9 m/s, your opinion would have been
incorrect however.
>> Basically an opinion can always be wrong if there are hard facts to
>> invalidate it.
>
> The concept of validity does not apply to opinions.
Of course it does.
> Opinions are
> value judgments, and are the result of the value system of the person
> holding the opinion in question.
I hold the opinion that in Harry Potter Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are
the same person. Someone else could hold the opinion that they are not
the same person. We cannot both be correct. If we have not read book 5
we could both still hold these opinions on the 22nd June this year.
However it is likely that book five will clear the issue up, and it
will be a known fact whether they are the same person or not. If it
does then one of our opinions is invalid. No if's no buts.
> Since value systems include data,
> an opinion can be valueless. If a person is ignorant about a subject,
> their opinions about the subject are either unexamined whims or are
> simply borrowed from others, second-hand.
Opinions are something you have in the absence of abosolute facts.
>> On a Harry Potter scale, I could have the opinion that Arabella Figg
>> and Mrs. Figg are not related in any way shape or form. At the moment
>> we don't know for sure if this opinion is valid.
>
> Aside from concrete statements made by JKR, well, no, we don't.
The point is that the opinion could well be invalid. There are a
range of opinions you can hold on this issue, but not all of them
are valid, some of them are utter rubbish and invalid, all that differs
is that we don't know which ones are invalid and which one is correct.
That does not stop all but one of the opinions being invalid however.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Opinions are something you have in the absence of abosolute
> facts.
While I agree with you in principle (based on what I can
find of dictionary entries on opinion), I must register some
concern over your use of the term 'absolute facts'.
It is my experience that no such thing as an 'absolute' fact
exist. It is e.g. only an incontrovertible fact that Arabella
Figg is one of the 'old crowd' to someone who has both read
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, and have understood the
phrase 'the old crowd' to include the names (instead of being
in addition to the names - 'these named persons and the old
crowd').
What you and I and most other people consider incontrovertible
facts will be questioned by some, who are quite sane - can we
then consider them absolute?
I would far prefer to say that an opinion is what you have in
the absence of positive knowledge (thereby acknowledging that
it is an individual phenomenon).
I'm sorry for the nitpicking - I beg your forgiveness ;)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Tennant Stuart
"Markku Uttula" <markku...@disconova.com> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>> In an interview the author said there are 'around 1000 students' at
>>> Hoggwarts
>> She has also shown us her notes about Harry's year, and it contains
>> only 41 students (which - if average - makes for 287 students).
>> Ref: <http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/>
> Perhaps her notes only show people who are referenced to in some way. No
> reason to just say "Harry passed a student whose name he doesn't know"
> for the sake of saying it. If you are in school with 1000 students, it's
> very probable, you don't know too many of them by name. Only the ones
> you do, or are of any importance to the story in some way, need to be
> mentioned in the books...
That is not so, Markku.
Her notes contain many names that have not been referenced in any way,
at least not so far in the first four books.
As for "1000 students", that was merely an off-hand remark which is
contradicted by canon, which twice says that a class of two houses
contains about twenty students.
Tennant
Tennant Stuart
Tom <T...@invalid.com> wrote:
> Tennant Stuart <ten...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
That's right, only in the US edition, and they forgot to change "three"
to "four" (the number of people left to be sorted).
Tennant
jazmyn
Markku Uttula wrote:
>
> Thomas Madura wrote:
> > Well - it would seem that there would have to be large number of
> > students just to fullfill the requirements for the Pro Quidditch teams
> > alone. . If you look at Diagon alley alone - and note that there is
> > also Hogsmead - the number of Witches and Wizards there indicates
> > that there must be more schools that just Hogwarts as well.
>
> But there are. Hasn't anybody read "Hogswart, a History"? :)
Not in the real world...
Be nice if it were a real book, but would likely be someone compiling
the author's writer's notes 20-30 years from now?
Markku Uttula
> As for "1000 students", that was merely an off-hand remark which is
> contradicted by canon, which twice says that a class of two houses
> contains about twenty students.
A two house class that Harry goes to, yes.
...Following a slight spoiler for GoF, beware...
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
...Well that should be enough - after all, it's not such a big
spoiler...
While re-reading GoD, I just noticed, that during the yule ball, "The
House tables had vanished; instead, there were about a hundred smaller,
lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people". So... Why would
they have well more than 1000 seats if there were not even nearly so
many students. Taking also into account that only students on their
fourth year and above were allowed in (plus a possible companion if they
so chose).
Were there so many guests? Students from Durmstrang and Beauxbatton were
not that many to fill the seats. Or maybe they just wanted to have nice
space for everyone, who knows.
Anyhow... JKR *has* said there are around 1000 students, and in my
opinion there is also a very strong benefit of doubt this is in fact
correct. Until I'm proven wrong by a steady fact, I'll hold to my
opinion.
Sorry for being like this - I just totally hate being wrong and am
willing to take any precautionary action not to let it happen once again
:)
HELENA
"jazmyn" <jaz...@pacificpuma.com> wrote in message
news:3E30B31F...@pacificpuma.com...
Well, they did it for Tolkien...
HELENA
John_Doe
You're focusing mostly on the first book of the Harry Potter Series. I
just started reading the third book, and it appears to me that there
is a very prominent black in PoA. Just thought ya oughta know.
He he
John_Doe
jona...@buzzard.org.uk (Jonathan Buzzard) wrote in message news:<396j0b...@192.168.42.254>...
Markku Uttula
b0qflg$ncu$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi ) not receiving *any* notion at all
during the day... at least I thought there'd be a "nice notion" post, or
a simple denial of the thing I noticed (of course, with *something* to
stand up against it), but ... nothing :(
Sometimes I think I have some trollish behaviour in me...
doug
news:b0t11o$jc4$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi:
Markku, nice notion.
--
"You like to think you're never wrong (you live what you learn). You want
to act like you're someone (you live what you learn). You want someone to
hurt like you (you live what you learn). You want to share what you've been
through (you live what you learn)." - Linkin Park (Points of Authority).
Markku Uttula
> Markku, nice notion.
Thank you for feeding my inner troll that sometimes forces itself to the
surface :)
doug
Welcome.. just do not do it again.. Trolls are bad.. and they smell like
cabbage.
Ron D
On 20-Jan-2003, "The Eternal Lost Lurker \(I possess the sound for thine donkey!\)"
<ell4...@sbcglowball.net> wrote:
> I can detect sarcasm just fine, thanks. I can also detect dipshits just
> fine, and I'm detecting a big one right now.
>
> The Eternal Lost Lurker
I don't know if I would go far enough to call him a dipshit, but otherwise I would have to agree.
There seem to be way to many (new) people around here that don't seem to be able to think. And their
favorite last attempt seems to be to say "sarcasm" or "it's a joke" when they can't back up their
stupity. Irritating.
Ron D.
Tennant Stuart
"Markku Uttula" <markku...@disconova.com> wrote:
> Tennant Stuart wrote:
>> As for "1000 students", that was merely an off-hand remark which is
>> contradicted by canon, which twice says that a class of two houses
>> contains about twenty students.
> A two house class that Harry goes to, yes.
Yes.
> ...Following a slight spoiler for GoF, beware...
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
> ...Well that should be enough - after all, it's not such a big
> spoiler...
> While re-reading GoD
???
> I just noticed, that during the yule ball, "The House tables had
> vanished; instead, there were about a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones,
> each seating about a dozen people". So... Why would they have well more
> than 1000 seats if there were not even nearly so many students. Taking
> also into account that only students on their fourth year and above were
> allowed in (plus a possible companion if they so chose).
Maths is not JKR's strong point.
> Were there so many guests? Students from Durmstrang and Beauxbatton were
> not that many to fill the seats. Or maybe they just wanted to have nice
> space for everyone, who knows.
> Anyhow... JKR *has* said there are around 1000 students, and in my
> opinion there is also a very strong benefit of doubt this is in fact
> correct. Until I'm proven wrong by a steady fact, I'll hold to my
> opinion.
That was just on off-hand remark, and not only does it clash with canon,
it is contradicted by her own detailed notebooks.
> Sorry for being like this - I just totally hate being wrong and am
> willing to take any precautionary action not to let it happen once
> again :)
So I noticed...
Markku Uttula
>> While re-reading GoD
>
> ???
Oops... The D is just next to F. Sound a bit strange that way, doesn't
it :)
Dragon Friend
news:b0u7pp$4c2$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> Tennant Stuart wrote:
> >> While re-reading GoD
> >
> > ???
>
> Oops... The D is just next to F. Sound a bit strange that way, doesn't
> it :)
>
Dragon Friend
~~~
"Humanity... so noble, always willing to sacrifice... the other fellow." ~~
Max von Sydow in NEEDFUL THINGS.
"...perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who are only waiting
to see us once beautiful
and brave..." By Rainer Maria Rilke
Check out these websites http://www.maxvonsydow.net
http://www.maxvonsydow.da.ru
Nil Einne
> news:23NW9.1569$Nh...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of Harry
> > Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
By black you mean of African descent? What about Asians, e.g. Indian,
Pakistanis, Chinese, Japanese etc? I could be wrong but I'm pretty
sure Asians make up a much larger percentage of the British population
then Africans. Also, if you want to look at this logically, why would
the immigration patterns even be the same? Surely, witches and wizards
are much less likely to have been slaves then normal people.
Similarly, their economical and social situation will probably also be
somewhat different. In any case, you don't seem to have actually read
the site properly... In any case, with such a small population size,
you can't really read much into differences.
"The Eternal Lost Lurker \(I possess the sound for thine donkey!\)" <ell4...@sbcglowball.net> wrote in message news:<%JUW9.221$5m.280...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Neat"? When this person obviously has never TOUCHED any of the books?
Perhaps true but have you actually read the site properly?
>
> When this person obviously doesn't take into consideration that Britain is
> not the United States?
Yes they did. Unless they've changed it since.
> Three NAMED black students at Hogwarts -- Lee, Dean, and Angelina. (The guy
> would KNOW those last two had names if he'd ever picked up a Harry Potter
> book in his life...)
Actually the person did mention the name Angelina Johnson which they
said they got from the books.
>
> Possibly more that just haven't been named because they're not terribly
> important.
>
> That's quite a few black students for a wizarding school in the UK, with a
> student body of less than 1000, all of whom are rare and unique enough as it
> is, being wizards and all.
True, and ironically that's what Mr Robert Berry said....
> I call one Mr. Robert Berry on ten counts of grandstanding, rabble-rousing,
> ignorance of non-US cultures, and general idiocy.
Perhaps you should read the whole site before making comments. I
originally supported you until I did. Look carefully at the end:
"So what's the breakdown really like? What percent of the overall
school population do the 17 black students that appear in the movie,
make up? Though no actual attendance figure is shared, I figured you
could get a pretty accurate gauge by counting the student seats in the
banquet hall. From this picture, I've counted 272, which makes the
black students 6% of the overall makeup. According to the UK's Office
of National Statistics, minority ethnic groups (which would include
non black minorities as well) represent 7% of the overall population.
Considering this, it appears that Professor Dumbledore is doing a
pretty fair job of making sure his student makeup accurately reflects
that of the general populace. Which is even more amazing, considering
only magically empowered students are allowed to attend."
Nil Einne
> That is not so, Markku.
>
> Her notes contain many names that have not been referenced in any way,
> at least not so far in the first four books.
>
> As for "1000 students", that was merely an off-hand remark which is
> contradicted by canon, which twice says that a class of two houses
> contains about twenty students.
Firstly, while some may hate me for this, although I enjoy the Harry
Potter books, I often have to remind myself that they were originally
intended for children. I've found a number of times that certain
details/areas don't really make sense or add up so to speak. However,
since they are intended for children, I'm not totally expecting
everything to be perfectly laid out and to make sense.
Anyway, has it ever occured to you that the class sizes might vary a
bit between years? Specifically, don't you expect the years after (and
before) Harry's year might be larger. Why? Well Harry was less then
one yo when Voldemort was destroyed right? Don't you think that as
Voldemort gained power, the number of babies born to non-muggle
families (any family where at least one of the parents is a witch or
wizard) decreased. And correspondingly, after he was destroyed, the
number of babies born increased? Not to mention the number of witches
and wizards around to have babies probably decreased as he gained
power...
Ron D
On 25-Jan-2003, nil_e...@email.com (Nil Einne) wrote:
> > "liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:23NW9.1569$Nh...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of Harry
> > > Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
>
> Perhaps you should read the whole site before making comments. I
> originally supported you until I did. Look carefully at the end:
>
> Considering this, it appears that Professor Dumbledore is doing a
> pretty fair job of making sure his student makeup accurately reflects
> that of the general populace. Which is even more amazing, considering
> only magically empowered students are allowed to attend."
And why did he go to such lengths at the site and here to claim that Hogwarts had discriminatory
admission polices? It is clear in both the books and the movies that there are no discriminatory
policies. Period. So why bring them up? What's next, an exaimination of weither or not there is a
proper ration of red heads vs. blondes? Blue eyes vs brown? Makes just as much sense.
Ron D.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:YoEY9.33539$_s4.25445@rwcrnsc54...
> And why did he go to such lengths at the site and here to claim that
> Hogwarts had discriminatory admission polices? It is clear in both the
> books and the movies that there are no discriminatory policies. Period.
> So why bring them up? What's next, an exaimination of weither or not
> there is a proper ration of red heads vs. blondes? Blue eyes vs brown?
> Makes just as much sense.
Ok, now that's not true at all. Last I checked, people weren't captured
and enslaved (at least any time recently) in large numbers based solely on
hair and/or eye color. Please don't try to equate the very real
discrimination that has gone on against Blacks to things like eye and hair
color.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"_Wild, Wild World of Batwoman_ always amazes me. It is truly a testament
to having a camera, shooting things, and thinking it's a movie."
-nospam, rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc.
Ron D
On 25-Jan-2003, "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> "Ron D" <rwd...@internetcds.com> wrote in message
> news:YoEY9.33539$_s4.25445@rwcrnsc54...
>
> > And why did he go to such lengths at the site and here to claim that
> > Hogwarts had discriminatory admission polices? It is clear in both the
> > books and the movies that there are no discriminatory policies. Period.
> > So why bring them up? What's next, an exaimination of weither or not
> > there is a proper ration of red heads vs. blondes? Blue eyes vs brown?
> > Makes just as much sense.
>
> Ok, now that's not true at all. Last I checked, people weren't captured
> and enslaved (at least any time recently) in large numbers based solely on
> hair and/or eye color. Please don't try to equate the very real
> discrimination that has gone on against Blacks to things like eye and hair
> color.
>
> Catherine Johnson.
> --
I didn't make myself clear... I have no trouble with combating discrimination when it is taking
place. I just don't see why time and effort should be wasted proving/disproving discrimination when
it appears to be obvious that it isn't. As well as the fact that the original post appeared to be
stating that such discrimination was taking place. Now, if none of the supporting characters (i.e.
Dean and Angelina) were black, or if the original statement was stated differently, (i.e. a look
into student racial balance) rather then stating discriminatory policies straight out, I wouldn't
have had any problems with the post to begin with. Personaly, I would have no trouble with the books
(and movies), and would enjoy them just as much, if Harry, Ron, or Hermione was one of the Black
students.
Ron D.
Nil Einne
> And why did he go to such lengths at the site and here to claim that Hogwarts had discriminatory
> admission polices? It is clear in both the books and the movies that there are no discriminatory
> policies. Period. So why bring them up? What's next, an exaimination of weither or not there is a
> proper ration of red heads vs. blondes? Blue eyes vs brown? Makes just as much sense.
Sorry but I didn't reliase the poster is the same person who wrote the
site. I have no idea why he seems to have changed his mind in his
posts. However, the reason for making the site is indicated at the
beginning:
"But after hearing many civil rights advocates bring up the lack of
black characters in the film's school, I decided to pop in the DVD of
Harry Potter and The Sorcerer's Stone, and see for myself. Indeed,
after casually viewing the film, I thought there to be only a couple
black students at the famous Wizard's academy, but perhaps some
careful use of pausing and picking through the entire movie would
straighten things out."
From this, it appear that he is stating that he wanted to clarify for
himself whether what others were saying is true or not. His final
conclusion is that they were not true. Why he came here and seemed to
change his mind is beyond me.
As for red heads, blondes etc well this is an issue rarely considered
by anyone. Clearly, it is not something a civil rights advocate had
brought up. Being a bit naive or narrow minded, it is probably
something he will never think of either. While I don't see any real
specific issue with the racial balance in HP (in fact, it didn't
really occur to me before this; def I never thought of the race of
most people other then perhaps Cho Chang while reading the book, and
personally, despite being a male, I feel if anything, the book is more
lacking in it's male/female important role balance then anything
else), I do acknowledge that Hollywood has a strong prejuduice even if
somewhat hidden, against anyone who is not, what they call 'white'.
However, this is related to the American situation as a whole and is
not something I have any wish to go into here. This is not just from
one movie but from looking at the situation as a whole... While I
acknowledge that blondes sometimes get somewhat stereotypical roles, I
don't think there is that much prejuidice against them in the movie
industry... As with other hair and eyes colours. Of course, there is
some indirect prejuice that arises from the issue of race, but that's
a different matter.
Nil Einne
do with his time is up to him. On the web site, he did seem to reach
some fair conclusions answering some of the questions which he claims
have been raised by others. I suspect, his website, might also be
useful for others. Personally, I still think it's a waste of time but
that's up to him. I would much rather he did some kind of charity work
but oh well. Considering, I have seen people who are IMHO, are
analyising Harry Potter way too much. Sure I'm interested in some of
the details, especially in speculating what is going to happen but I
shudder at the thought of some of the things others have done. I
always shudder at the thought of a lot of fan fin fiction. For
example, I came across this Star Trek fan fiction episode. It had some
of the worst acting, story line and special effects I have ever seen
and IMHO, is one of the biggest waste of time ever. But I suppose
someone must enjoy it. So in the end, to enjoy, their own...
Ron D
On 25-Jan-2003, nil_e...@email.com (Nil Einne) wrote:
> "Ron D" <rwd...@internetcds.com> wrote in message news:<YoEY9.33539$_s4.25445@rwcrnsc54>...
>
> > And why did he go to such lengths at the site and here to claim that Hogwarts had discriminatory
> > admission polices? It is clear in both the books and the movies that there are no discriminatory
> > policies. Period. So why bring them up? What's next, an exaimination of weither or not there is
> > a
> > proper ration of red heads vs. blondes? Blue eyes vs brown? Makes just as much sense.
>
> Sorry but I didn't reliase the poster is the same person who wrote the
> site. I have no idea why he seems to have changed his mind in his
> posts. However, the reason for making the site is indicated at the
> beginning:
>
I'm not that sure either, I never checked.
>
> From this, it appear that he is stating that he wanted to clarify for
> himself whether what others were saying is true or not. His final
> conclusion is that they were not true. Why he came here and seemed to
> change his mind is beyond me.
>
> As for red heads, blondes etc well this is an issue rarely considered
> by anyone. Clearly, it is not something a civil rights advocate had
Only someone who has spent too many years reading every sceince fiction story he could get his hands
on. There was a short story about brown/blue eyes being the basis for a war (details excape me at
the moment....)
As I stated to clarify a different post, my main objection was the way the first post was worded. It
wasn't a look at Hogwarts racial policies or something like that, it was Hogwarts discrimintory
polices. Which don't exist. It seems to have been worded as a Troll would, to cause problems. Or by
someone who didn't know what they were talking about (at the time).
Ron D.
Tennant Stuart
nil_e...@email.com (Nil Einne) wrote:
> Tennant Stuart <ten...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<na.3038ed4bb9...@argonet.co.uk>...
>> That is not so, Markku.
>> Her notes contain many names that have not been referenced in any way,
>> at least not so far in the first four books.
>> As for "1000 students", that was merely an off-hand remark which is
>> contradicted by canon, which twice says that a class of two houses
>> contains about twenty students.
> Firstly, while some may hate me for this, although I enjoy the Harry
> Potter books, I often have to remind myself that they were originally
> intended for children. I've found a number of times that certain
> details/areas don't really make sense or add up so to speak. However,
> since they are intended for children, I'm not totally expecting
> everything to be perfectly laid out and to make sense.
The books are not intended for children, JKR writes them for herself.
> Anyway, has it ever occured to you that the class sizes might vary a
> bit between years? Specifically, don't you expect the years after (and
> before) Harry's year might be larger. Why? Well Harry was less then
> one yo when Voldemort was destroyed right?
Wrong, 15 months old, see below.
> Don't you think that as Voldemort gained power, the number of babies
> born to non-muggle families (any family where at least one of the
> parents is a witch or wizard) decreased. And correspondingly, after he
> was destroyed, the number of babies born increased? Not to mention the
> number of witches and wizards around to have babies probably decreased
> as he gained power...
Harry was exactly 15 months old on 31st October 1981.
Celebrations began immediately, but it could easily take some weeks for
the big rush of conceptions to get underway, probably at Christmas 1981,
especially since so many potential parents had been killed.
This means the big rush of births couldn't begin until late September
1982, meaning that they would turn 11 in late September 1993, and begin
at Hogwarts on 1st September 1994, when Harry began his fourth year.
This means that in the first three books, Harry's year would be typical
and we know that there are exactly 41 students in that year, (you can
have a list of their names if you like), for about 287 in total.
For there to be a total of 1000 students in the fourth book, that means
there are 754 first years, so the Sorting Hat is gonna be a bit busy...
Tennant Stuart
John VanSickle
>
> captured and enslaved (at least any time recently) in large numbers
> based solely on hair and/or eye color.
Three things need to be understood about slavery.
First, slavery has been practiced in every culture and society known
to man.
Second, slavery historically was never selective on any basis other than
the vulnerability of the victim. In times past (and today in some parts
of the world), slavery, or a social condition that is only nominally
different from slavery, was the inevitable fate of everyone unable to
defend themselves.
Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance where the
slaves all came from a distinct racial group; but this itself stems
from the fact that at the time the American colonies were customers in
the slave market, African peoples were the most vulnerable to being
conquered. Other cultures that practiced slavery usually enslaved the
next tribe over, and cheerfully sold their racial brethren to foreign
people. As a matter to tragic irony, the first American to claim, in
court, the ownership of a slave, was himself black.
All that being said...
The racial and ethnic make-up of Hogwart's, as seen in both the books
and the movies, indicates no particular policy towards race. From
my own experience living in the UK, the racial balance in the movies
matches what exists in the UK as a whole.
Regards,
John
James Burbidge
<evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The racial and ethnic make-up of Hogwart's, as seen in both the books
>and the movies, indicates no particular policy towards race. From
>my own experience living in the UK, the racial balance in the movies
>matches what exists in the UK as a whole.
Which, of course, ought to be the case if, as we're told, children are
selected purely on the basis of magical ability by an impartial
magical artifact.
--
James Burbidge jamesandma...@sympatico.ca
Fish Eye no Miko
news:3E344295...@hotmail.com...
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >
> > Ok, now that's not true at all. Last I checked, people
> > weren't captured and enslaved (at least any time recently)
> > in large numbers based solely on hair and/or eye color.
>
> Three things need to be understood about slavery.
> First, slavery has been practiced in every culture and society
> known to man.
Yeah, no kidding.
> Second, slavery historically was never selective on any basis other
> than the vulnerability of the victim. In times past (and today in
> some parts of the world), slavery, or a social condition that is only
> nominally different from slavery, was the inevitable fate of everyone
> unable to defend themselves.
Again, no kidding.
You did notice the
"(at least any time recently) in large numbers"
thing, right? I put that there FOR A REASON.
In the past, say, 300 years, has any group systematically been enslaved and
discriminated against based solely on their hair and/or eye color?
> Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance
> where the slaves all came from a distinct racial group;
What about the Egyptian enslavement of the Hebrews?
> but this itself stems from the fact that at the time the American
> colonies were customers in the slave market, African peoples
> were the most vulnerable to being conquered. Other cultures
> that practiced slavery usually enslaved the next tribe over, and
> cheerfully sold their racial brethren to foreign people.
Including some African tribes who sold members of warring tribes they'd
captured.
> As a matter to tragic irony, the first American to claim, in court, the
> ownership of a slave, was himself black.
I actually don't find that ironic, tragic, or even surprising, given what I
said above...
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"Burn the land, and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me."
-Theme from _Firefly_.
Jonathan Buzzard
nil_e...@email.com (Nil Einne) writes:
> Thought I should add one more thing. In the end, what Robert choose to
> do with his time is up to him. On the web site, he did seem to reach
> some fair conclusions answering some of the questions which he claims
> have been raised by others. I suspect, his website, might also be
> useful for others.
He does now. However initially he claimed that the admisions policy
of Hogwarts was racist. My guess is the basic problem is that he is
racist and therefore sees racism everywhere, including where it is
not. It is just in this instance he has had to backpeddle because
he has shown yo be wrong very clearly.
JAB.
--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jona...@buzzard.org.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44(0)1661-832195
Jonathan Buzzard
Tennant Stuart <ten...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
[SNIP]
>
> Harry was exactly 15 months old on 31st October 1981.
We don't know if it was 1981 however.
>
> For there to be a total of 1000 students in the fourth book, that means
> there are 754 first years, so the Sorting Hat is gonna be a bit busy...
>
Sorting does not take long enough for that, even at one sort every 10
seconds you would only get through 360 in an hour, so sorting is
going to take two hours minimum, and one sort every 10 seconds is
utterly unrealistic.
Jonathan Buzzard
Not if the magical population has a different tendancy of migration,
emigration or whatever you want to call it.
As most of the factors that contribute to the none white ethnic
population in the United Kingdom are all economic, it is entirely
reasonable topresume that the magical members of these populations
are less likely to come to the U.K., making the majority of the none
white ethnic group at Hogwarts from muggle born familes.
Given that these make up less than 100% of the student population
at Hogwarts (most pupils seem to have at least one magical parent)
we can reasonably expect the percentage of ethnic minorities in
the Hogwarts student population to be lower than that of the
United Kingdom as a whole.
HELENA
"Nil Einne" <nil_e...@email.com> wrote in message
news:3bafcd2d.03012...@posting.google.com...
> > "liquorhead" <rber...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:23NW9.1569$Nh...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Thought you might like this, a neat look at the black characters of
Harry
> > > Potter, and the discriminatory admission policies of Hogwarts.
>
> By black you mean of African descent? What about Asians, e.g. Indian,
> Pakistanis, Chinese, Japanese etc? I could be wrong but I'm pretty
> sure Asians make up a much larger percentage of the British population
> then Africans. Also, if you want to look at this logically, why would
> the immigration patterns even be the same? Surely, witches and wizards
> are much less likely to have been slaves then normal people.
> Similarly, their economical and social situation will probably also be
> somewhat different. In any case, you don't seem to have actually read
> the site properly... In any case, with such a small population size,
> you can't really read much into differences.
In Britain slavery isn't a significant reason for any of the
non-indigenous populations. There has been wave after wave of settlers in
this country from the Celts to the various mediterranean and North African
Roman Legionaries (the white population of northern England has been shown
to have a higher than average number of typically "African" gene clusters
which has been theoretically attributed to North African Auxilliaries
stationed on Hadrian's wall). Then there were the Saxons, the Danes, the
French.... We have had small populations of African peoples living in this
country for at least two thousand years or thereabouts. We have had
significant Jewish populations (and still do). We had black American
settlers after the Second World War and a large influx of settlers from
Commonwealth countries, particularly the Carribbean, India and Pakistan, in
the nineteen fifties to fill the labour gap caused by the Second World War.
We have smaller numbers of Chinese living here. Currently, like much of
Europe, we are experiencing a small but noticeable influx of refugees and
immigrants from Eastern Europe and Afghanistan. Oh, yes and we're recruiting
Phillippino and South African nursing staff like there's no tomorrow.
Undoubtedly some of them will settle and add to the mixture,
If you use an inclusive definition of non-English (some non-northern
European ancestry traceable over the last hundred years or so) something
like forty percent of mainland English people could be included. (I can't
reference that, it was a medical genetic study I read a few years ago and no
longer have the source for. Ignore it if you wish.) Anyway, *visibly*
non-ethnic Britons may only make up 5 - 7 % of the population (I've read
several figures for that, it depends on the definition you are using) but we
are a very small, population dense country. Five percent or so of us is far
more noticeable to the rest of us than it might be in, say, America, where
the population is relatively sparce and more able to segregate into
geographically disparate areas of cities and states. It is *impossible* to
live in mainland England at least and not feel that Britain is a reasonably
integrated multi-racial society. Whilst most ethnically "different" people
do tend to self segregate (particularly Pakistani settlers) their needs
still take them into the same jobs, shopping areas and for the younger
generation social areas. Our cities simply are not large enough to have
self-segregated separate social areas. Even if you live in rural Britain, in
a small village where there is no visibly non-English family (and this in
itself is not that common) the proximity to and need to use large town/city
amenities will expose you to a high percentage of various ethnic mixtures. I
tend to see the wizard population as being similar to the Pakistani
population (but less numerous) holding hard to their own culture but still
interacting with the mainstream of English culture.
My city is approximately 30% non-English, mostly Indian/Pakistani
followed by a large number of Carribean peoples with a few Chinese/Eastern
European and Afghan people thrown in. Many of these people are extremely
visible in our public service areas - hospitals etc. where they make up a
large number of workers on all levels - first generation immigrants from the
fifties and sixties who mostly have lower paid lower status work (and, yes
that is racist) are now retiring from the workforce. Their children however,
having been assimilated frequently hold much higher status jobs.
Given this background and returning the discussion to Hogwarts I think
JKR and WB have reflected as far as possible the ethnic mixture of the UK.
The only thing I would argue for is a Hogwarts staff member who is of
non-English origins. However we have yet to have the appearance of
Professors Sinistra and
Vector described so we can't discount them. Also, JKR I think, uses other
species to represent the prejudices of real life and Hogwarts has employed a
werewolf and a half-giant so I think we should conclude that Dumbledore at
least is a tolerant and unprejudiced man.
HELENA
John VanSickle
>
> Again, no kidding.
> You did notice the
>
> "(at least any time recently) in large numbers"
>
> thing, right? I put that there FOR A REASON.
Didn't mean to correct you (I rarely find anything needing correction
in your posts); I just wanted to throw it in for the enlightenment of
others. Yeah, I'm a know-it-all...
> In the past, say, 300 years, has any group systematically been enslaved and
> discriminated against based solely on their hair and/or eye color?
True, whoever dragged that in was taking things too far. I cannot
recall any record of discrimination based on hair and eye color that
was not adjunct to more comprehensive programs of discrimination.
There is a note in the history of Nazi Germany concerning a woman
excused from participating in one of the Nazis experiments because
the experiment involved warming the bed of a Jewish man, and the
woman in question was too blond and too blue-eyed to suit the
researcher.
> > Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance
> > where the slaves all came from a distinct racial group;
>
> What about the Egyptian enslavement of the Hebrews?
Were they the only people the Egyptians enslaved?
Regards,
John
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >
> > Again, no kidding.
> > You did notice the
> > "(at least any time recently) in large numbers"
> > thing, right? I put that there FOR A REASON.
>
> Didn't mean to correct you (I rarely find anything needing correction
> in your posts);
Oh, ok. My bad, sorry.
> I just wanted to throw it in for the enlightenment of
> others. Yeah, I'm a know-it-all...
<Snape>
Put your hand down, you silly boy!
</Snape>
^_^
> > In the past, say, 300 years, has any group systematically been
> > enslaved and discriminated against based solely on their hair
> > and/or eye color?
>
> True, whoever dragged that in was taking things too far.
Exactly. I understand the desire to make analogies; I do it myself a lot.
But you have to make sure the analogy fits. perhaps comparing the plight
of Blacks to that of women might have worked better.
> I cannot recall any record of discrimination based on hair and eye
> color that was not adjunct to more comprehensive programs of
> discrimination.
Nor can I.
> > > Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance
> > > where the slaves all came from a distinct racial group;
> >
> > What about the Egyptian enslavement of the Hebrews?
>
> Were they the only people the Egyptians enslaved?
Not sure. Nor, for that matter, am I sure they were enslaved simply for
being Hebrew/Jewish. That's why I made it a question, not a statement...
I'm not sure it fits the point being made. If they were enslaved simply
because they were around and a convenient target regardless of their
religion and/or racial identity, then it doesn't fit the idea of them being
enslaved because of those factors.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Jonathan Buzzard
"HELENA" <ric...@standage-bowles.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> It is *impossible* to
> live in mainland England at least and not feel that Britain is a reasonably
> integrated multi-racial society. Whilst most ethnically "different" people
> do tend to self segregate (particularly Pakistani settlers) their needs
> still take them into the same jobs, shopping areas and for the younger
> generation social areas.
Sorry but that is simply not the case. Maybe if you live in a city
but move out into the countryside, in particular my neck of the woods
and it is just not true.
> Our cities simply are not large enough to have
> self-segregated separate social areas. Even if you live in rural Britain, in
> a small village where there is no visibly non-English family (and this in
> itself is not that common) the proximity to and need to use large town/city
> amenities will expose you to a high percentage of various ethnic mixtures.
Not really, I am trying to think when I last saw a none caucasian person.
Must have been about a fortnight ago when I went to our local chinese
takeaway, and before that no idea. In the meantime I have been into
Newcastle at least once.
>
> My city is approximately 30% non-English, mostly Indian/Pakistani
> followed by a large number of Carribean peoples with a few Chinese/Eastern
> European and Afghan people thrown in. Many of these people are extremely
> visible in our public service areas - hospitals etc. where they make up a
> large number of workers on all levels - first generation immigrants from the
> fifties and sixties who mostly have lower paid lower status work (and, yes
> that is racist)
It was not racist, they came here to do those sorts of jobs. Offering
someone from the Carribean a job as a hospital porter or bus driver
if they come to the U.K. is not racist.
> Given this background and returning the discussion to Hogwarts I think
> JKR and WB have reflected as far as possible the ethnic mixture of the UK.
> The only thing I would argue for is a Hogwarts staff member who is of
> non-English origins. However we have yet to have the appearance of
> Professors Sinistra and
> Vector described so we can't discount them. Also, JKR I think, uses other
> species to represent the prejudices of real life and Hogwarts has employed a
> werewolf and a half-giant so I think we should conclude that Dumbledore at
> least is a tolerant and unprejudiced man.
Well I think we can assume that magical community is less likely to
migrate than the muggle community. Therefore the only students from
ethic minorities will be muggle born ones. Given the age of most
of the staff at Hogwarts, the ethnic minority muggle born witches
and wizards born in the U.K. are simply not old enough for the most
part to hold teaching positions.
Ron D
On 27-Jan-2003, "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > I cannot recall any record of discrimination based on hair and eye
> > color that was not adjunct to more comprehensive programs of
> > discrimination.
>
> Nor can I.
>
Sorry, too many obscure Science Fiction references running through my head....
Ron D.
Ron D
Sorry, snipped before it got to me...
> > > > Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance
> > > > where the slaves all came from a distinct racial group;
> > >
(please do not be offended by the wording of this post. While my ancestors have been living in
America since 1662, according to the extensive family records, at no time did we ever own slaves,
nor did we take part in the slave trade...)
I believe that was more a matter of the availability of slaves on a whole, rather then a racial
issue (at least at the start.) More a matter of supply and demand. The importation of Black slaves
took place more to "fill in" for the unacceptability of local populations (mainly due to the fact
that they had no resistance to imported disease). The racial aspects of the use of slaves (to my
understanding) was not a factor in the slave trade untill well after the slave population base was
established in the new world. i.e. generations of slave-owners trying to justify to themselves the
reprehensable practice of owning another human being.
Ron D.
John VanSickle
>
> "John VanSickle" <evilsna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E35AFDB...@hotmail.com...
>
> > Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > >
> > > Again, no kidding.
> > > You did notice the
> > > "(at least any time recently) in large numbers"
> > > thing, right? I put that there FOR A REASON.
> >
> > Didn't mean to correct you (I rarely find anything needing correction
> > in your posts);
>
> Oh, ok. My bad, sorry.
>
> > I just wanted to throw it in for the enlightenment of
> > others. Yeah, I'm a know-it-all...
>
> <Snape>
> Put your hand down, you silly boy!
> </Snape>
> ^_^
>
> > > In the past, say, 300 years, has any group systematically been
> > > enslaved and discriminated against based solely on their hair
> > > and/or eye color?
> >
> > True, whoever dragged that in was taking things too far.
There was an experiment performed by a schoolteacher in Typicaltown
USA. At the start of one of her classes (young kids, seven at the
oldest), she told them a test had revealed that blue-eyed children
were smarter than brown-eyed children. A subsequent drop in the
overall test scores of the browns, and an increase in the demonstrated
knowledge of the blues, was evident. The teacher then told the class
that she had been mistaken, and that the exact opposite of what she
had told them earlier was in fact the truth. The students' scores
reversed course. Instances of brown-eyed kids beating up on blue-eyed
kids appeared to increase.
However, the experiment wasn't repeated, mainly due to the outcry it
provoked when it became known.
> > > > Third, African-American slavery was perhaps the only instance
> > > > where the slaves all came from a distinct racial group;
> > >
> > > What about the Egyptian enslavement of the Hebrews?
> >
> > Were they the only people the Egyptians enslaved?
>
> Not sure. Nor, for that matter, am I sure they were enslaved simply
> for being Hebrew/Jewish. That's why I made it a question, not a
> statement...
> I'm not sure it fits the point being made. If they were enslaved
> simply because they were around and a convenient target regardless of
> their religion and/or racial identity, then it doesn't fit the idea of
> them being enslaved because of those factors.
The Biblical record states that the Egyptians became concerned about
the increasing population of the Hebrews, and instituted forced labor
to keep them down. There is archeological evidence to indicate that
there was a dynasty change back in that era, from a foreign (pro-
Hebrew) dynasty to a native dynasty.
Regards,
John
Tennant Stuart
"Ron D" <rwd...@internetcds.com> wrote:
>> Nor can I.
Wasn't there a BBC drama series once, about height discrimination?
Tennant
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Ron D" <rwd...@internetcds.com> wrote:
<unusual forms of discrimination>
> > Sorry, too many obscure Science Fiction references running
> > through my head....
>
> Wasn't there a BBC drama series once, about height discrimination?
No, but in the (late, much lamented) Nicktoon _Invader Zim_, the race Zim
comes from uses height to determine status. The leaders are called "The
Tallest".
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Pat Sumner
> Wasn't there a BBC drama series once, about height discrimination?
It was called "Small Problem", and starred Christopher Ryan (who played Mike
in 'The Young Ones').
Apparently people under a certain height (maybe 5 feet) were known as
Smalls, and were severely discriminated against.
Not quite a drama, it was more in the comedy line (although satirical), and
I seem to recall that it didn't last very long - I think it may have been
cancelled before all episodes were broadcast.
Very few people have heard of this series.
Wildean
Ron D
Unfortunatly, BBC America only shows what they select out of the total BBC line-up, so if it came
out after '79 and wasn't a hit, I haven't heard of it. Which is too bad, because, in general (in my
opion, anyway) the average BBC show tends to be of better quality then the average American show...
Which helps explain why I mainly watch BBC America and the Science channels...
Ron D.
doug
[snip]
> Unfortunatly, BBC America only shows what they select out of the
> total BBC line-up, so if it came out after '79 and wasn't a hit,
> I haven't heard of it. Which is too bad, because, in general (in
> my opion, anyway) the average BBC show tends to be of better
> quality then the average American show... Which helps explain why
> I mainly watch BBC America and the Science channels...
>
> Ron D.
>
You've never heard/seen of "Keeping Up Appearances"? Which was a more
current show after '79...
--
"still in the game and might win the lovely bugger outright, would the
Academy please defer the honor until I am 80?''
Ron D
On 30-Jan-2003, doug <dougma...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> "Ron D" <rwd...@internetcds.com> wrote in
> news:OXi_9.102824$AV4.3352@sccrnsc01:
>
>
> [snip]
> > Unfortunatly, BBC America only shows what they select out of the
> > total BBC line-up, so if it came out after '79 and wasn't a hit,
> > I haven't heard of it. Which is too bad, because, in general (in
> > my opion, anyway) the average BBC show tends to be of better
> > quality then the average American show... Which helps explain why
> > I mainly watch BBC America and the Science channels...
> >
> > Ron D.
> >
>
> You've never heard/seen of "Keeping Up Appearances"? Which was a more
> current show after '79...
> --
Yes, fortunately our Public Broadcasting Station shows a BBC Comedy line-up.... Much better then
most of Holloywoods junk...
Actually, my favorite is "May to December" but I think it only ran 3 seasons, which is all I've ever
seen. But "Keeping up Appearances" is one of the one's I like to watch.
Ron D.
Tom Riddle
> "jazmyn" <jaz...@pacificpuma.com> wrote in message
> news:3E30B31F...@pacificpuma.com...
>>
>>
>> Markku Uttula wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas Madura wrote:
>>>> Well - it would seem that there would have to be large number of
>>>> students just to fullfill the requirements for the Pro Quidditch
>>>> teams alone. . If you look at Diagon alley alone - and note that
>>>> there is also Hogsmead - the number of Witches and Wizards there
>>>> indicates that there must be more schools that just Hogwarts as
>>>> well.
>>>
>>> But there are. Hasn't anybody read "Hogswart, a History"? :)
>>
>>
>> Not in the real world...
>>
>> Be nice if it were a real book, but would likely be someone compiling
>> the author's writer's notes 20-30 years from now?
>
> Well, they did it for Tolkien...
> HELENA
I hope they don't. I would like to think that when JKR finishes the series,
she destroys all notes (or publishes them herself, then destroys the rest).
Then we would know *too* much - there would be no fun in how/why/where/who
anymore.
I read this about Terry Pratchett
"When I finish a novel and the book has been published, the text and notes
are deleted from the hard drive with a cry of "[forgotten word] literary
researchers! Go get a proper job!""
--
LV
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Tennant Stuart
"Pat Sumner" <adri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ooh, thanks for that, Wildean.
I see from the IMDb that was shown in 1987.