Potter Film: The English Accents?
Guy Robinson
to admit that I'm curious.
How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
the Harry Potter film?
I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
shock to the system.
--
Guy Robinson
"Inspite of all temptations,
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman."
[all standard disclaimers apply]
Jonathan Buzzard
guy_ro...@my-deja.com (Guy Robinson) writes:
> Pardon me for asking for could be a contraversial question but I have
> to admit that I'm curious.
>
> How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
> the Harry Potter film?
>
> I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
> Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
> of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
> shock to the system.
>
Except the dialogue has been extensively Americanised.
JAB.
--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jona...@buzzard.org.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44(0)1661-832195
Sagebrush
director, being an American, was very careful about making it understandable
for us Yanks.
Sagebrush
trankscuzzball
I need subtitles to understand the oasis brothers, the second coming of the
beatles my arse!
guy_ro...@my-deja.com (Guy Robinson) wrote in
news:f310f0e8.01112...@posting.google.com:
Roger Berkley
I should imagine most Americans have a reasonable grasp of native English
idiom - probably a bit better than your grasp of native English spelling.
Roger
m0nk3y butl3r
english here was a peice of cake compared to that. I really feel that
without the english accents the whole mystique of it all wouldnt work. Id
hate to have some crass loud american kid saying "Radical" instead of
"Bloody Brilliant".
"Guy Robinson" <guy_ro...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:f310f0e8.01112...@posting.google.com...
JoYfu...@webtv.net
>How are Americans coping with the
>English accents and the language in the
>Harry Potter film?
I did just fine, considering that the story takes place in GB, and
all of the chracters are English. I am actually quite relieved that they
didn't sneak any Americans into the movie. It would have ruined it for
me.
(not that the lack of green in Harry's eyes didn't ruin it)
>However for some people it must be
>quite a shock to the system.
Probably only to the unfortunate people that didn't read the books
first.
For the people that read the books before seeing the movie, they would
have already known where the story takes place and would have expected
English accents and dialect. :)
my 2 sickles
karin
Melissa Houle
> Pardon me for asking for could be a contraversial question but I have
> to admit that I'm curious.
>
> How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
> the Harry Potter film?
>
> I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
> Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
> of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
> shock to the system.
Well, not to this American HP fan. I'm aware that Harry Potter is set
in the UK because JKR is from the UK and wisely gave her story a
familiar background. Nor are the Harry Potter books the only English
children's books I've read over the course of my life. Quite honestly
I would find it much more jarring to hear Harry, Ron and Hermione
speak with American accents. I'm very happy that Christopher Columbus
and JKR made sure the the movie was filmed in the UK with an English
cast. It's just my opinion and I don't claim to speak for anyone
else, but I find that most English children make better actors than
most American children.
Melissa
--
"Don't allow your mind to wander; it's too little to be allowed out by
itself."
The Fabulous Disney Babe
>the Harry Potter film?
>
Coping? I love them!
>I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
>Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
>of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
>shock to the system.
No, not at all. You should hear some of the accents we have over here!
Fab
http://www.laughingplace.com
One thing that I do find fascinating is Quidditch, the sport of Harry Potter,
the sport of wizards. It seems just about the greatest sport ever invented,
better even than NASCAR. ~Joe Posnanski
The Fabulous Disney Babe
>
>JAB.
No it hasn't, you wanker!
Terry Eden
news:qn9ht9...@192.168.42.254...
> In article <20011121152410...@mb-mq.aol.com>,
> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
> >>Except the dialogue has been extensively Americanised.
> more but as it is 10 days since I saw the film I can't remember them
> any more.
Finals is quite a common British term for end of year exams. I've heard it
everywhere from Scotland all the way down to Surrey. Just because you
haven't come across it, doesn't make it un-British.
Terry
--
___________________________________________________________________________
___
Certified 100% virus-free and safe to trust with your life by Wally
AntiVirus,
cos a real e-mail virus wouldn't lie to you with a message like this would
it?
To reply, change "deadspam.com" to "uea.ac.uk"
Jonathan Buzzard
dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>>
>>JAB.
>
> No it hasn't, you wanker!
>
Yes it has. By default the dialogue is British. So if there are references
to "girls bathroom", instead of "girls toilets" the dialogue has been
Americanized. No if's and no but's it has been Americanized
"You have been accepted" is another example of Americanization of the
Dialogue. Ron at some point talks about his finals, there are *loads*
more but as it is 10 days since I saw the film I can't remember them
any more.
JAB.
Jonathan Buzzard
dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>>the Harry Potter film?
>>
>
> Coping? I love them!
>
>>I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
>>Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
>>of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
>>shock to the system.
>
> No, not at all. You should hear some of the accents we have over here!
>
I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
Dragon, Dancing
>Pardon me for asking for could be a contraversial question but I have
>to admit that I'm curious.
>
>How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
>the Harry Potter film?
>
>I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
>Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
>of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
>shock to the system.
No problem. We just whip out the ol' Universal Translator and away we go.
Cyber Scout
>Finals is quite a common British term for end of year exams. I've heard it
>everywhere from Scotland all the way down to Surrey. Just because you
>haven't come across it, doesn't make it un-British.
Er... it is a common term for some exams, such as to take a HP
example N.E.W.Ts. Or say O.W.Ls compared to mock O.W.Ls.
At uni your exams in your last year would be finals. However
the exams at the end of first year, at School or Uni, are not
finals.
Guy Robinson
> guy asked:
>
> >How are Americans coping with the
> >English accents and the language in the
> >Harry Potter film?
>
> I did just fine, considering that the story takes place in GB, and
> all of the chracters are English. I am actually quite relieved that they
> didn't sneak any Americans into the movie. It would have ruined it for
> me. (not that the lack of green in Harry's eyes didn't ruin it)
I felt that they might make a teacher American but I hear that they
resisted the urge completely. I look forward to seeing it myself at
the weekend to see what has been done to the book. The reviews seem
favourable enough.
> >However for some people it must be
> >quite a shock to the system.
>
> Probably only to the unfortunate people that didn't read the books
> first.
> For the people that read the books before seeing the movie, they would
> have already known where the story takes place and would have expected
> English accents and dialect. :)
As people have noted the recent output of the British film industry
has been a lot of stories about crime, so I was a bit concerned over
whether the American Harry Potter audience had much exposure to UK
English recently.
I'm glad that my concerns were unfounded.
If people are feeling brave and want another UK film to see while they
are waiting for the next Harry Potter I recommend "Billy Eliot", a
story about a English kid, growing up during the Miners' Strike, who
wants to become a ballet dancer and go to the Royal School of Ballet.
It went down a storm in France, where people saw it in V.O. (with the
original language and French subtitles).
--
Guy Robinson
[all standard disclaimers apply]
Jonathan Buzzard
"Terry Eden" <T.E...@deadspam.com> writes:
> "Jonathan Buzzard" <jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:qn9ht9...@192.168.42.254...
>> In article <20011121152410...@mb-mq.aol.com>,
>> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>> >>Except the dialogue has been extensively Americanised.
>> Ron at some point talks about his finals, there are *loads*
>> more but as it is 10 days since I saw the film I can't remember them
>> any more.
>
> Finals is quite a common British term for end of year exams. I've heard it
> everywhere from Scotland all the way down to Surrey. Just because you
> haven't come across it, doesn't make it un-British.
>
Perhaps, but go read the first book again, they are not called finals
in the original edition, but surprisingly enough they are in the
Scholastic edition. So while finals is a term used in the United Kingdom,
though generally only to end of degree exams, it is a clear choice
of using dialogue from the Scholastic edition over the Bloomsbury edition.
As such it counts as an "Americanization".
The Fabulous Disney Babe
>
>JAB.
No, but they've shown others.
Rugrat
> else, but I find that most English children make better actors than
> most American children.
I don't want to be unfair to Emma, Dan, and all other Brit child actors,
but I usually find it the other way round. Perhaps it's just a case of
spotting inconsistencies better in something you know well. You see
American children every day, so when they sound wrong in a film you notice.
By and large, I ONLY see American kids in films, so I would never notice if
they weren't realistic. And vice versa.
Rugrat
Rugrat
>>>Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
>>>of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
>>>shock to the system.
>>
>> No, not at all. You should hear some of the accents we have over here!
>>
> I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
Hee hee, I'm the only one in my family who can understand what he's saying!
Rugrat
(UK)
Karen
<%NQK7.178551$3d2.7...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Sagebrush <sagebr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I think he was carefully balancing the needs to be understandable to
British and American audiences and still be British. My impression is
that was successful. Anyone who might think it seemed more American
than British hasn't spent much time in both of those countries. It is
clear which country it was set in and what the nationality of the
characters is.
--
Karen
"But let's also remember that there was a moment, way back in the mists
of the late last century, when Harry Potter was a cool club you could
join only by reading." Tracy Mayor, Salon.com
Jonathan Buzzard
dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>>
>>JAB.
>
> No, but they've shown others.
>
Have you ever seen Rab C Nesbit? It is a comedy show about a alcoholic
Glaswegian played by Gregory Fischer called Rab C Nesbit. The thing
is he talks in a *very* broad and slured Glaswegian accent that most
people in the U.K. can't even understand. Never had any problem following
it myself mind you and it is very funny.
Karen
<jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <20011123022953...@mb-cg.aol.com>,
> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
> >>I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
> >>
> >>JAB.
> >
> > No, but they've shown others.
> >
>
> Have you ever seen Rab C Nesbit? It is a comedy show about a alcoholic
> Glaswegian played by Gregory Fischer called Rab C Nesbit. The thing
> is he talks in a *very* broad and slured Glaswegian accent that most
> people in the U.K. can't even understand. Never had any problem following
> it myself mind you and it is very funny.
>
> JAB.
Isn't Northhumberland close to Scottland, it's also close to Billy
Elliot land, I think. You may have a natural advantage in
understanding difficult accents. If you and I got together for a face
to fact chat, would we be able to understand each other? Just
wondering.
Chris Share
>In article <eguqt9...@192.168.42.254>, Jonathan Buzzard
><jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <20011123022953...@mb-cg.aol.com>,
>> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>> >>I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
>> >>
>> >>JAB.
>> >
>> > No, but they've shown others.
>> >
>>
>> Have you ever seen Rab C Nesbit? It is a comedy show about a alcoholic
>> Glaswegian played by Gregory Fischer called Rab C Nesbit. The thing
>> is he talks in a *very* broad and slured Glaswegian accent that most
>> people in the U.K. can't even understand. Never had any problem following
>> it myself mind you and it is very funny.
>>
>> JAB.
>
>Isn't Northhumberland close to Scottland, it's also close to Billy
>Elliot land, I think. You may have a natural advantage in
>understanding difficult accents. If you and I got together for a face
>to fact chat, would we be able to understand each other? Just
>wondering.
IIRC it borders with scotland, BICBW... I gave up geography years ago.
As for understanding accents us UKians probably have the advantage over
you - we've got so many accents close together - I live in Stoke, which
has it's own accent. Only an hour's drive north or south gets you to
Birmingham and Manchester, each of which has it's own accent. Not that
much further to Liverpool, with it's own accent too. You see what I
mean? I have a weird accent - born and grew up in stoke, both parents
from Birmingham, but still managed to get my own weird accent, which is
horrible.
It's even easier to see the differences here - you'll get this at any
decent uni here, people from all over the country, with some from other
countries too. And of course it's all easier in the last few decades,
since widespread travel is more common, and with national TV.
Now look what you've done, I'm watching the Family Guy ep with all the
"British" people. "The life of the wife is ended by the knife...." :)
chris
Lisa Hicks
Guy Robinson wrote:
>
> Pardon me for asking for could be a contraversial question but I have
> to admit that I'm curious.
>
> How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
> the Harry Potter film?
>
> I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
> Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
> of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
> shock to the system.
>
> --
I've watched a good many British movies and t.v. shows, but I still had
a little trouble with Seamus's heavy Irish brogue; I'm still trying to
figure out the first half of his "turn this water into rum" spell.
Other than that, though, I was fine, as were my 11-year-old brother, my
slightly hearing-impaired father, and my occasionally-dense-about-
figuring-things-out-in-context mother. So I think, in general, even
people who haven't seen many British films are probably doing okay.
Lisa H
Karen
Robinson <guy_ro...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Pardon me for asking for could be a contraversial question but I have
> to admit that I'm curious.
>
> How are Americans coping with the English accents and the language in
> the Harry Potter film?
>
> I presume that quite a few Americans going to see the film will be
> Anglophiles to some degree and therefore will have a reasonable grasp
> of native English idiom. However for some people it must be quite a
> shock to the system.
There are no extreme accents that I noticed. I had a little concern
going in. I rented Billy Elliott a few months ago and there were a
copy of lines I only understood by turning on the close captioning
(turned out to be swearing). The only hard time I've ever had
understanding English accents is when trying to place an order at the
McDonalds in London. And I'm not sure that guy was actually speaking
English.
Jonathan Buzzard
"Dennis M. Marks" <denm...@dcsi.net> writes:
> In article <eguqt9...@192.168.42.254>, Jonathan Buzzard
> <jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>> >>I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
>> >>
>> >>JAB.
>> >
>> > No, but they've shown others.
>> >
>>
>> Have you ever seen Rab C Nesbit? It is a comedy show about a alcoholic
>> Glaswegian played by Gregory Fischer called Rab C Nesbit. The thing
>> is he talks in a *very* broad and slured Glaswegian accent that most
>> people in the U.K. can't even understand. Never had any problem following
>> it myself mind you and it is very funny.
>>
>> JAB.
>
> sounds realistic to us Americans but what does it sound like to the
> British?
>
Bloody awful (unless they have lived here for twenty years), which is
why JKR did not want Americans playing the parts.
Jonathan Buzzard
Karen <Ka...@infobreak.net> writes:
> In article <eguqt9...@192.168.42.254>, Jonathan Buzzard
> <jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <20011123022953...@mb-cg.aol.com>,
>> dscve...@aol.comFabulous (The Fabulous Disney Babe) writes:
>> >>I bet they never showed "Rab C Nesbitt" in America!!!
>> >>
>> >>JAB.
>> >
>> > No, but they've shown others.
>> >
>>
>> Have you ever seen Rab C Nesbit? It is a comedy show about a alcoholic
>> Glaswegian played by Gregory Fischer called Rab C Nesbit. The thing
>> is he talks in a *very* broad and slured Glaswegian accent that most
>> people in the U.K. can't even understand. Never had any problem following
>> it myself mind you and it is very funny.
>>
>> JAB.
>
> Isn't Northhumberland close to Scottland, it's also close to Billy
> Elliot land, I think. You may have a natural advantage in
> understanding difficult accents. If you and I got together for a face
> to fact chat, would we be able to understand each other? Just
> wondering.
>
It is indeed (40 miles as the crow files), but the local accent Geordie
is *nothing* like a Glaswegian accent, and plenty of local people
can't understand Rab C. Nesbit either. That said I have very little
of a local accent anyway, so I doubt your would have problems
following me. For myself I seem to have little problem following
most broad accents, though sometimes I have to concentrate to
follow.
RCLOVELY
>sounds realistic to us Americans but what does it sound like to the
>British?
>
Probably just as bad as British actors trying to do American accents.
RC
Andy Platt
better at spotting the fake British accent and I'm better at spotting the
fake American accent. I guess it's because we hear the remnants of the
original accent more clearly. For instance, I thought that Michael Caine's
accent was terrible in Cider House Rules but my wife didn't notice it.
The acid test is when you don't know the actors. My wife and I had to look
up Minnie Driver on imdb after Good Will Hunting because we had seen her in
another movie (Sleepers?) and assumed she must be American.
Andy.
--
I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.
"RCLOVELY" <rclo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011126120315...@mb-fv.aol.com...
Donal Fagan
wrote:
>The acid test is when you don't know the actors. My wife and I had to look
>up Minnie Driver on imdb after Good Will Hunting because we had seen her in
>another movie (Sleepers?) and assumed she must be American.
I was very surprised to hear Minnie do Jane in the animated Tarzan. I
had previously seen her in Big Night and thought she was apple pie
American (and one heck of a kisser). A friend of my cousin worked on
that movie and said Ms Driver had a voice coach on hand the whole
time.
Donal Fagan
Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com
(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
Lisa Hicks
Some Brits can do an okay American accent, but others. . . . Ralph
Fiennes's was pretty painful in _Quiz Show_ (love ya, Ralph, but a
Conneticut Yankee you ain't). Kenneth Branagh's southern accent in _The
Gingerbread Man_ was, as I recall, really good. And Jude Law in
_Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil_ was pretty good; it was the
first thing I'd seen him in, and I thought, based on his role there,
that he was an American.
If you're looking for really agonizing fake accents, check out the
recent _Golden Bowl_ adaptation starring Jeremy Northam as an Italian.
Oh, the humanity!
Lisa H, who didn't think Nicolas Cage's accent in _Corelli's Mandolin_
was *that* bad
Rugrat
> understanding English accents is when trying to place an order at the
> McDonalds in London. And I'm not sure that guy was actually speaking
> English.
McDonalds in London? No, he probably wasn't speaking English.
Rugrat
Karen
<ch...@caesium.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> we've got so many accents close together - I live in Stoke, which
> has it's own accent. Only an hour's drive north or south gets you to
> Birmingham and Manchester, each of which has it's own accent. Not that
> much further to Liverpool, with it's own accent too. You see what I
> mean?
This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
get far from where you grew up. At least that is how I would explain
this accent situation. It's probably a cultural thing, but Americans
just don't stay in the same place for generations. Most kids with any
sort of independent spirit (and that is most young people) pick up and
move to a different part of the country from their parents, just as
their parents did before them. That explains why the airport is so
crowded at Thanksgiving. Most Americans travel for thanksgiving since
only one household per family gets to be the host. Do yall have a
holiday like that? One where you try to cram as many relatives as
possible together in one room for a day?
Igenlode
> If you're looking for really agonizing fake accents, check out the
> recent _Golden Bowl_ adaptation starring Jeremy Northam as an Italian.
> Oh, the humanity!
>
Are there any expatriate Americans who have been watching the BBC's
current Trollope adaptation and can comment on the accent of the actress
playing the supposedly Texan lady who features there?
Even to me the accent sounds pretty dodgy, and I'm judging it chiefly
against the nineteen-sixties' English voicing of the character 'Phones'
in 'Stingray'...
--
Igenlode
'The Day the Stories Went Dark' - story now on-line at
http://curry.250x.com/HoedownII/
sam
Fortunately, here in the States we have PBS, which shows a large
amount of British programming. If you watch enough of it you
eventually pick up the British idioms and the accents become almost
unnoticeable.
I was a little surprised that the kids kept saying,
“wicked.” That’s an expression I used growing up in
New England. I know it’s used in Canada but I had no idea it was
British also.
Rugrat
> New England. I know it's used in Canada but I had no idea it was
> British also.
Many, if not most, American expressions end up here sooner or later. It
irritates people like JAB.
Rugrat
Rugrat
> only one household per family gets to be the host. Do yall have a
> holiday like that? One where you try to cram as many relatives as
> possible together in one room for a day?
Yeah, Christmas. My Dad hates it. He likes seeing the grandparents, but not
all at once, all in one day, when everyone is /expected/ to feel happy *or
else!* So this year we're escaping - we're going skiing in America for
Christmas!
Rugrat
Kim Moss
really common but I don't, usually anyway. Some poeple do though. I like a
London accent best, as all the two London boys at my school are really
nice-looking. I can do a pretty good Cockney accent....
Anyway I make fun of my American friend who has only lived here for a few
months, she always speaks with long words, and makes us all sound really
thick. She said we speak nothing like what her friends think we speak like.
Well not what you asked... Sorry!!!
"Jonathan Buzzard" <jona...@buzzard.org.uk> wrote in message
news:f0qrt9...@192.168.42.254...
Chris Malcolm
>In article <MPG.166b6a8eb...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Chris Share
><ch...@caesium.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> we've got so many accents close together - I live in Stoke, which
>> has it's own accent. Only an hour's drive north or south gets you to
>> Birmingham and Manchester, each of which has it's own accent. Not that
>> much further to Liverpool, with it's own accent too. You see what I
>> mean?
>This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
>people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
>get far from where you grew up.
So how do you explain a much higher proportion of Brits holding
passports than Americans if we don't travel much? How do you explain
British newspapers and TV covering far more international news
compared to their US counterparts?
--
Chris Malcolm c...@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085
School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics
Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Rugrat
>>> has it's own accent. Only an hour's drive north or south gets you to
>>> Birmingham and Manchester, each of which has it's own accent. Not that
>>> much further to Liverpool, with it's own accent too. You see what I
>>> mean?
>
>>This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
>>people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
>>get far from where you grew up.
>
> So how do you explain a much higher proportion of Brits holding
> passports than Americans if we don't travel much? How do you explain
> British newspapers and TV covering far more international news
> compared to their US counterparts?
I don't think he means internationally, he means within the UK. And I don't
buy the not moving around much argument. I think it's just that we've been
here longer, and in the past people *couldn't* move around much, so over
hundred or thousands of years accents have grown up in different parts of
the country. Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred
years.
Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
Rugrat
Ronnie Clark
>I don't think he means internationally, he means within the UK. And I don't
>buy the not moving around much argument. I think it's just that we've been
>here longer, and in the past people *couldn't* move around much, so over
>hundred or thousands of years accents have grown up in different parts of
>the country. Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred
>years.
Hell, in some more rural areas, we can have changing accents from village to
village. The accent in my village (Warton) is different to those in the
neighbouring Austrey and Polesworth villages. 5 miles down the road, and the
Atherstone accent is often difficult for me to even understand.
>Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
But it still holds true. You're going to get far more deep-routed accents in
a country where history goes back to... well, when history began compared to
the new-world countries like America or South Africa, etc.
Ronnie
Robert Gordon
> I think it's just that we've been here longer, and in the past people
> *couldn't* move around much, so over hundred or thousands
> of years accents have grown up in different parts of the country.
> Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred years.
>
> Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
But it seems right to me. Well, actually the colonization of North America
started in 1620, so it's longer than a couple of hundred years, but the point
still stands.
I think of language diverisity as being similar to genetic diversity. The gene
pool of a non-native species is much smaller than in the species' place of
origin. The potato is native to Peru, where there are wild varieties and a
very diverse gene pool; in Ireland the potato gene pool is so narrow that a
single disease could completely destroy the stock (cf. the potato famine, which
could not have happened in Peru). Similarly, the linguistic gene pool of
English is larger in Britain than in America.
-- Rob Gordon
Richard Eney
Ronnie Clark <R.J.Cl...@student.lboro.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>I don't think he means internationally, he means within the UK. And I don't
>>buy the not moving around much argument. I think it's just that we've been
>>here longer, and in the past people *couldn't* move around much, so over
>>hundred or thousands of years accents have grown up in different parts of
>>the country. Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred
>>years.
In point of fact, there are very distinctive accents within eight miles in
New Hampshire, and also in Maine and the other New England States. There
are distinctive accents in the southeastern states in the US too; I've
heard some of them and a few of them are very hard for me to understand.
Accents vary anywhere people live. There isn't any single "New York"
accent either, though there are some common elements that most of the NYC
accents share.
>Hell, in some more rural areas, we can have changing accents from village to
>village. The accent in my village (Warton) is different to those in the
>neighbouring Austrey and Polesworth villages. 5 miles down the road, and the
>Atherstone accent is often difficult for me to even understand.
>
>>Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
>
>But it still holds true. You're going to get far more deep-routed accents in
>a country where history goes back to... well, when history began compared to
>the new-world countries like America or South Africa, etc.
Whoa, careful with your phrasing there. "When history began _from the
Euro point of view_ in America or South Africa", maybe. The two American
continents had some rather significant history of their own before the
Europeans got here, and so did the continent of Africa. (And the rest of
the world, of course.)
=Tamar
Ronnie Clark
>Euro point of view_ in America or South Africa", maybe. The two American
>continents had some rather significant history of their own before the
>Europeans got here, and so did the continent of Africa. (And the rest of
>the world, of course.)
Which we wonderful Europeans managed to almost completely belittle and
destroy. So much for progress. Can you name one country the British invaded
and managed to not poison the native culture?
Igenlode
> This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
> people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
> get far from where you grew up. At least that is how I would explain
> this accent situation.
Hardly the mystery of Britain alone - it has been normal human behaviour
all over Europe (and for all I know the rest of the world) for
millennia. After all, how else would you suppose that local accents ever
developed in the first place?
Some people *did* travel, to a surprising degree, in the days before
motorised transport - but generally speaking, they always came home, to
the fields their fathers had worked before them or to the business they
had built up. And to inherit land, after all, is to be tied to the home
of one's ancestors.
Encouraging your children to 'flee the nest' is a modern phenomenon.
Historically speaking, the expectation has always been that they would
marry locally and remain close by to assist you in your old age.
Andy Platt
> In point of fact, there are very distinctive accents within eight miles in
> New Hampshire, and also in Maine and the other New England States. There
> are distinctive accents in the southeastern states in the US too; I've
> heard some of them and a few of them are very hard for me to understand.
> Accents vary anywhere people live. There isn't any single "New York"
> accent either, though there are some common elements that most of the NYC
> accents share.
I saw a news story a couple of years ago that such local accents were
becoming more pronounced, rather than less over the last 30 years. It seems
odd but there was some linguistics professor explaining all the whys and
wherefores - I don't remember it all now though!
Richard Eney
Here's a theory. The last 30 years is from around 1971 on, just as the
"celebrate diversity" culture started to take hold. Schools stopped
teaching correct pronunciation, so the local accents had no corrective
influence but television, which tends to exaggerate accents for dramatic
effect.
=Tamar
Karen
<sorrytoo...@myaddress.com> wrote:
Good for you, skiing is fun, where are you going?
Karen
<sorrytoo...@myaddress.com> wrote:
> >>This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
> >>people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
> >>get far from where you grew up.
> >
> > So how do you explain a much higher proportion of Brits holding
> > passports than Americans if we don't travel much? How do you explain
> > British newspapers and TV covering far more international news
> > compared to their US counterparts?
>
> I don't think he means internationally, he means within the UK. And I don't
> buy the not moving around much argument. I think it's just that we've been
> here longer, and in the past people *couldn't* move around much, so over
> hundred or thousands of years accents have grown up in different parts of
> the country. Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred
> years.
>
> Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
>
> Rugrat
That's exactly why I called it a mystery, with all the local accents,
you would think Brits never left the town of their birth, but they
obviously do. And I'm a she.
Karen
<dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
Is that your own theory? I've never heard it before. Does whatever I
said about being mobile mean anything at all, or was I just assuming
something for no good reason. Corporate relocations was more popular
in the 60's, but it is still very common. This diversity thing and the
exagerated accents on TV, you may have something there.
Rugrat
Sorry. Snipped attributions and all that.
Rugrat
Richard Eney
Karen <Ka...@infobreak.net> wrote:
>Richard Eney <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>> Andy Platt <a...@turnip.his.com> wrote:
>> >"Richard Eney" <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In point of fact, there are very distinctive accents within eight
>> >> miles in New Hampshire, and also in Maine and the other New England
>> >> States.
<snip>
>> >I saw a news story a couple of years ago that such local accents were
>> >becoming more pronounced, rather than less over the last 30 years. It
>> >seems odd but there was some linguistics professor explaining all the
>> >whys and wherefores - I don't remember it all now though!
>> Here's a theory. The last 30 years is from around 1971 on, just as the
>> "celebrate diversity" culture started to take hold. Schools stopped
>> teaching correct pronunciation, so the local accents had no corrective
>> influence but television, which tends to exaggerate accents for dramatic
>> effect.
>Is that your own theory? I've never heard it before.
It's mine, and may well be wrong. But having lived through those
decades and seen the changes in teaching philosophy (and the number of
teachers trained then who can't spell, don't know grammar - sure, many do
but time was, no teacher would have been graduated who didn't) - I think
the attitude change has something to do with it.
> Does whatever I
>said about being mobile mean anything at all, or was I just assuming
>something for no good reason. Corporate relocations was more popular
>in the 60's, but it is still very common. This diversity thing and the
>exagerated accents on TV, you may have something there.
Travel does make a difference but usually only if you stay in a given area
long enough for it to be necessary and handy for you to change your speech
pattern. For instance, I lived in a fairly upscale area in NJ for 22
years. After about ten years I began to notice that I had begun to
pronounce commonly used words in the local way, but words I didn't need to
use to communicate daily, I still said the way I had at home in NH, where
the accent is noticeably different. Another 5 years and I began to use
some of them even when visiting NH. It is true that until then my accent
literally shifted into the other one when I crossed the state line.
Talking in the car, I noticed it change. Now I have to decide between
which accent to use for those words, and I'm as likely to use one as the
other. I've now been in MD for 8 years, but not interacting a lot with
people with strong local accents, and my accent is pretty much unchanged.
The need to communicate is a strong pressure, but it will change only
those words necessary to communicate. Children are more easily affected
by adults, because they are still learning new words and will learn them
in the accent of the area, but affected by their parents' accents as well.
A child of my acquaintance whose parents had strong British accents had
a mixed UK-NJ accent, and used some UK phrases that his teachers did not
understand, which did affect his school grades for the worse. (They were
some of the 1970s-trained teachers I mentioned. I would never have let
them teach, having seen some of the word they assigned and their attitudes
toward it. Not that all the teachers I had in the 1950s were so great,
but most of them could pronounce and spell English in reasonable agreement
with the dictionary.)
=Tamar
Andy Platt
> which accent to use for those words, and I'm as likely to use one as the
> other. I've now been in MD for 8 years, but not interacting a lot with
> people with strong local accents, and my accent is pretty much unchanged.
I don't know what part of MD you are in but certainly around the DC metro
region there really isn't a readily identifiable local accent because of the
very transitory nature of the area.
Richard Eney
>"Richard Eney" <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>
>> which accent to use for those words, and I'm as likely to use one as the
>> other. I've now been in MD for 8 years, but not interacting a lot with
>> people with strong local accents, and my accent is pretty much unchanged.
>
>I don't know what part of MD you are in but certainly around the DC metro
>region there really isn't a readily identifiable local accent because of the
>very transitory nature of the area.
I am in the DC-metro area. Compared to a NH/NJ accent, any MD accent is a
local accent. :-) But actually, except for people brought up here,
everyone here has a "local accent" from some other locality. True of
anywhere, really. It's just that some local accents are stronger than
others. I just don't interact a lot with anybody really local to the
neighborhood, and most of the people I do talk to have fairly cosmopolitan
accents. There's a flavor, but the commonly used words have been shifted
toward the norm, same as in my own accent.
=Tamar
Karen
<dic...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>
> I am in the DC-metro area. Compared to a NH/NJ accent, any MD accent is a
> local accent. :-) But actually, except for people brought up here,
> everyone here has a "local accent" from some other locality. True of
> anywhere, really.
The same thing is true of the Atlanta metro area. Most of the people
here were raised somewhere else. To hear a true Georgia accent, you
must leave the metro area. Even people born and raised in the city
don't have a Georgia accent. They have some vague city accent that is
probably very similar to other cities.
Guy Robinson
> In article <Xns9168D04E97AD9...@137.205.128.11>, Rugrat
> <sorrytoo...@myaddress.com> wrote:
>
> > >>This is not an insult, this is the mystery of Great Britain. For a
> > >>people who once upon a time traveled all over the world, you sure don't
> > >>get far from where you grew up.
> > >
> > > So how do you explain a much higher proportion of Brits holding
> > > passports than Americans if we don't travel much? How do you explain
> > > British newspapers and TV covering far more international news
> > > compared to their US counterparts?
> >
> > I don't think he means internationally, he means within the UK. And I don't
> > buy the not moving around much argument. I think it's just that we've been
> > here longer, and in the past people *couldn't* move around much, so over
> > hundred or thousands of years accents have grown up in different parts of
> > the country. Whereas Americans have only been there for a couple of hundred
> > years.
> >
> > Bugger. That's not a conclusive argument. Oh well.
>
> you would think Brits never left the town of their birth, but they
> obviously do. And I'm a she.
Don't forget that the UK is the source of the English language and
therefore you would expect the traces of the diversity of sources that
English developed from. The idea of received pronounciation comes
from the first English dictionaries and the Queens English was only
popularised with the advent of radio, making it possible for everyone
to hear the same accent.
So given a history of the development of English that spans thousands
of years it is only comparatively recently that there has been a
common pronounciation.
However don't let this lull you into thinking that British citizens
don't travel around in the UK and beyond. The South East is very
densely populated from people migrating into that area from all over
the place. In America one of the first people to die from Anthrax was
a Brit working over there.
Besides people nowdays tend to cherish their local accents and even go
as far as to cultivate them as a part of their cultural heritage.
People are proud of being a Manchurian, a Brummie or a kid that grew
up on a small post-industrial village on the banks of the river
Thames.
--
Guy Robinson
[all standard disclaimers apply]