Dumbledore may be an idiot -
trinity
1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
his parents & begrudged him. Put such powerful enchantments around the
stone that 1st year students were able to break through to the stone.
Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
harm to Harry). Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
was a fraud. Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking
students & was powerless to stop it.Also a cursed diary was using a
1st year student to open the chamber, kill roosters & write on walls &
DD couldn't figure it out. A 12 year old figured out where the chamber
was but DD couldn't? BTW the 12yr old did it in less than 8 months
Dumbledore had 50 years.
3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf. Found out that 3 students
had taught themselves to be animagi and roamed the countryside once a
month right under DD's nose. An alleged escaped killer was able to get
into Hogwarts more than once and was actually living on the grounds.
When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
him for the entire year using polyjuice potion. Did not protest Harry
being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even though it was apparent
that his name was entered fraudulently by persons unknown with unknown
intentions. Didn't notice the rampant cheating or the fact that Moody
(Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help Harry win. The phony teacher
was able to turn the trophy into a portkey transport 2 students off
school grounds resulting in the death of one student & enabling the
return of Voldemort.
5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts. Allowed
Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to stop her. His
apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach DADA
himself since no one else was. Even though DD knew Voldemort was back
he seemed to have little interest in preparing his students. His
seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
help Sirius.
6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
Riddle - This is your life. Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was
planning something terrible. Took Harry with him into the sea cave but
never noticed that the locket they were looking for was not the
Horcrux. I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
Let a 15 yr old disarm him and was killed by Snape - a person that
noboby in their right mind thought could be trusted.
Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
wizard of the age?
Spencer R. Lower
didn't add them all up as you did.
"trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote in message
news:mtn5q2tl12e2k7vpv...@4ax.com...
Fish Eye no Miko
> Please consider the following:
> back of his head.
I agree with some of what you say. I'll point out the stuff I don't.
> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on
> #4 Privett that a house elf could pop in and out at will
> (thankfully he meant no harm to Harry).
Elf magic works differently than Human magic.
> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
> was a fraud.
No, In fact, most people thought he was for real. Pompous and
annoying, but real.
> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
One whom he thought would be safe (and who was, for the most part).
> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that
> Harry may have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans,
> he swiftly went into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher
> who hates Harry's guts give him private lessons on blocking
> out the thoughts. Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarts
Uh, no. She was sent there by the Ministry, Even DD's power has some
limits.
> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched
> Tom Riddle - This is your life.
"Know your enemy".
> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
> terrible.
Because he knew what was happening.
> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that
> the locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux. I thought
> that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
"Let" being the operative word here. You don't think DD could have
kicked Draco's ass from Hogwarts to Drumstrang if he'd wanted to? But
that's just it-he didn't want to. He wanted to TALK to him.
> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their
> right mind thought could be trusted.
Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's clear
THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike me as being
"in their right minds".
Catherine Johnson.
Frodo Baggins
before that. I had written about these before, but I will repeat here.
I am not sure if Dumbledore is aware of all the secrets that are a part
of Hogwarts, some of it may be hidden even from him for the founders
were perhaps as crafty and powerful as any of the modern day
magicians. If a few fourth years can come up with something akin to the
Marauders Map, I am sure Dumbledore can too. He could easily have
rigged up devices that told him exactly whenever some outsider enters
Hogwarts in "any" form and keep track of their movements (he would be
too gentlemanly to do it to students and staff except perhaps if they
are found to go outside the grounds without permission). This means
that he knew about Quirrelmort, Sirius and Peter, Moody-Crouch (though
he may have thought it was the father who was up to no good) and almost
all the goings on. From the time that Scabbers appeared, Hermione had
gotten hold of Crookshanks which was perhaps Dumbledore's way of
keeping track of Scabbers.
Dumbledore has visited many prisoners in Azkaban, was present at their
trials too. I find it quite incredible that he was not shown to have
visited someone like Sirius Black, for Sirius was a part of the Order,
during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
have been present at the prisoner debriefing. Sirius would have told
him that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed with
that information ever since. Sirius would have also told him that Peter
was an animagi. It is quite inconveivable that Dumbledore neither knew
that Peter was alive or that he was at Hogwarts in the form of a rat.
Dumbldore surely knew that Voldemort was "not dead" after the first
battle. There was no body to be found, there was perhaps no wand. All
this would have made him suspect that Voldemort was defeated, but not
completely. It is quite certain that Dumbldore deduced that all the
Horcruxes needed to be found and destroyed for Voldemort's eventual
destruction and that until Horcruxes exist, Voldemort will rise again
and again to terrorise the world. For eg: There was no way to trap
Voldemort in his spirit form in PS, at least none that Dumbledore was
perhaps aware of. Slytherin's serpent was ancient magic by a magician
who was perhaps far more powerful than Dumbledore.
I do not think the story can end without an angle where Dumbledore is
shown to be "all knowing" who let these things happen for development
of Harry's character and for the eventual complete destruction of
Voldemort's powers. He had kept lots of information away from people
around him, eventually, this may prove to be detrimental. He thought he
would be around to see thru till the finish, I am sure he will be :)).
The only point I am not sure of is from what point did Dumbledore
suspect the extent of Voldemort's foray into Horcrux magic. If he did
so during the "first war", then he must have been at work all the
eleven years prior to PS in finding out about Horcruxes. If it happened
only in the second year, after seeing the Diary, then he could not have
suspected that Voldy could have been around in the first book, but
cetainly, from the end of the first year, he would have had protections
and detection devices around Hogwarts to prevent unauthorised entry.
I may have got it all wrong. JKR may just think that her fans are all
idiots and expect them to read bullet hole ridden plots and enjoy the
whole lot. If that is the case, from some point of the story buildup,
she has found herself out of her depth without knowing how to get back.
Frodo.
Deevo
news:mtn5q2tl12e2k7vpv...@4ax.com...
> Please consider the following:
Now I'm going to assume perhaps foolishly, for a moment, that you are making
a serious commentary here and not stirring up shit for the sake of it
(probably more likely) and look at your points and their various merits.
> 1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
> his parents & begrudged him.
As he explained to them at the beginning of HBP he anticipated that, being
family, they would raise and treat Harry as one of their own. This
obviously didn't take place. However the fact that they granted him
houseroom did preserve his life in those early years, as was Dumbledore's
intent.
> Put such powerful enchantments around the stone that 1st year
> students were able to break through to the stone.
True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
Two points there.
1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
chose him for the job.
2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
difficult to find someone to fill the position.
> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
> that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
> harm to Harry).
As they can do in Hogwarts itself.
> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
Also see point 2 about Quirrell.
> Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking students &
> was powerless to stop it.
Till the actions of Ginny under the influence of the diary released it the
monster was believed to be a legend. As for Dumbledore and his ability to
stop this it was made clear that the onle ones with that ability were those
who could also access the chamber itself. At that point only Harry and Ginny
(under posession by Tom) could do so.
> Also a cursed diary was using a 1st year student to open the chamber,
> kill roosters & write on walls & DD couldn't figure it out. A 12 year
> old figured out where the chamber was but DD couldn't? BTW the
> 12yr old did it in less than 8 months Dumbledore had 50 years.
See above.
> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
See point 2 about Quirrell. Also, as when he was a student, there was no
reason to believe that, without suitable precautions, that it would have
been unsafe. It was Pettigrew's presence that prompted his oversight that
evening, understandably in that instance.
> Found out that 3 students had taught themselves to be animagi and
> roamed the countryside once a month right under DD's nose.
After the fact and ultimately quite irrelevant.
> An alleged escaped killer was able to get into Hogwarts more than
> once and was actually living on the grounds.
Nobody, barring Lupin and the presumably deceased Pettigrew, would have been
aware of Sirius' ability. Why would have Dumbledore?
> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
And in doing so saved two innocent lives. Certainly a useful disposition of
available manpower and resources.
> 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
> him for the entire year using polyjuice potion.
And everyone else.
> Did not protest Harry being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even
> though it was apparent that his name was entered fraudulently by
> persons unknown with unknown intentions.
Was forced unwillingly, as was Harry, to abide by a 'binding magical
contract'.
> Didn't notice the rampant cheating.
Not being an administrator what could he have done about it if he had. Also
faux Moody's statement about Dumbledore being as high minded as he pleases
not preventing Maxine and Karkaroff from cheating implied that he was at the
least aware of it.
> or the fact that Moody (Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help
> Harry win. The phony teacher was able to turn the trophy into
> a portkey transport 2 students off school grounds resulting in
> the death of one student & enabling the return of Voldemort.
Once again not being an administrator of the contest how could he be held
responsable for the actions within?
> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
> Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to
> stop her.
First off that is an utterly false statement. He didn't allow her to come,
she was placed there by the ministry. As for stopping her, stopping her
doing what? Prior to Dumbledore's departure she was little more than a
nasty piece of work. It was after that when she assumed the mantle of head
that she became truly dangerous.
> His apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach
> DADA himself since no one else was.
Not so, the ministry's appointment of a useless teacher to the DADA position
led Hermione to suggest to Harry that he teach them practical DADA. Both to
succeed in their studies and to be prepared now Voldemort was back.
> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back he seemed to have
> little interest in preparing his students.
That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definately aware of the DA right
from it's inception and did nothing to prevent it's activities despite it
being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
> His seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
> thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
> help Sirius.
Not at all, by this point Dumbledore was gone from the school and well out
of the picture from Harry's point of view. It was Voldemort's trickery that
led Harry to the ministry and his own mistrust in Snape that prevented him
from seeking external assistance in doing so.
> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
> Riddle - This is your life.
Yes.
> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
> terrible.
Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was explained
later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to protect his
(Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that the
> locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux.
That was undetermined as after they had retrieved the locket events
prevented any discussion of it.
> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
As far as we were made aware he was able to 'feel' that the place had known
magic. There was no more detail than that.
> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
Because he had acted to protect Harry first by immobilising him, preventing
his own defence.
> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their right
> mind thought could be trusted.
On the contrary, everyone barring Harry and maybe Ron believed Snape to be
their ally and as Deathly Hallowes has yet to be released the question of
Snape's loyalty remains uncertain.
> Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
> wizard of the age?
I can't help you, if you're determined to see the books in such a negative
light or even if you're just trolling along for a response then anything
that I would write here would be a wasted excercise.
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm
DaveD
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1168322501.4...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> trinity wrote:
>
> > Please consider the following:
> > back of his head.
>
> I agree with some of what you say. I'll point out the stuff I don't.
>
> > 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on
> > #4 Privett that a house elf could pop in and out at will
> > (thankfully he meant no harm to Harry).
>
> Elf magic works differently than Human magic.
And the elf wasn't a threat to Harry (well, not intentionally! And not at
Privett Drive - the bludger incident was at Hogwarts...)
> > Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
> > was a fraud.
>
> No, In fact, most people thought he was for real. Pompous and
> annoying, but real.
Agreed: somehow Lockhart fooled most people.
> > 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>
> One whom he thought would be safe (and who was, for the most part).
>
> > 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that
> > Harry may have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans,
> > he swiftly went into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher
> > who hates Harry's guts give him private lessons on blocking
> > out the thoughts.
I agree, this one appears to have been a huge mistake. Whilst Snape may have
been the best teacher for Occulomancy/legilimens (sorry, can never remember
which is which or the spelling!) there were other factors that Dd should
have taken into consideration in determining how to achieve the outcome he
wanted - Harry being able to protect his mind and thoughts from Voldy. He
signally failed to give enough weight to the factor of Snape and Harry's
mutual antagonism which was totally predictable (even Trelawny could have
seen that one coming!) and which completely undermined the whole exercise.
Given how Harry and Snape reacted to each other, there wasn't any way they'd
work together so Dd should have found someone else to teach Harry, given he
couldn't do it himself, even if that other teacher wasn't nearly as good at
Occ/leg as Snape was. If all else failed, get someone to start Harry off to
get some skill THEN promote" him to being taught by Snape. He also failed
miserably in managing Snape in this situation - Dd knew the history, so
should have worked harder to win Snape over and checked up on their progress
more closely. </basic management lesson>
> > Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarts
>
> Uh, no. She was sent there by the Ministry, Even DD's power has some
> limits.
>
> > 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
> > education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched
> > Tom Riddle - This is your life.
>
> "Know your enemy".
>
> > Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
> > terrible.
>
> Because he knew what was happening.
No, two students very nearly died because of Draco's ineptness; they only
survived by pure luck. It was unconscionable that Dd didn't act sooner here;
he might have been hoping to let his "grand plan" to play out, but clearly
the collateral damage was too great: risking 2 totally innocent students
(and more students later on as well as his own life) in an attempt to try
and save a rather less innocent Draco.
> > Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that
> > the locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux. I thought
> > that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
Yes, it seems odd he couldn't tell it was a plain locket.
> > Let a 15 yr old disarm him
>
> "Let" being the operative word here. You don't think DD could have
> kicked Draco's ass from Hogwarts to Drumstrang if he'd wanted to? But
> that's just it-he didn't want to. He wanted to TALK to him.
This one's harder - Dd was weakened by the potion, but I think it was part
of his grand plan to talk Draco round so as to save him, as Dd saw the
"good" in Draco, so that may be why he did indeed let Draco disarm him. That
said, I'm not sure why he allowed the scene to develop and end in his death
(I keep thinking back to the Draught of the Living Death - if only JKR
hadn't been quite so categorical that he is definitely dead....) - it seems
like a particularly ill-conceived move.
> > and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their
> > right mind thought could be trusted.
>
> Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's clear
> THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike me as being
> "in their right minds".
>
> Catherine Johnson.
I don't think that one was a shock to Dd - I think both he and Snape knew it
was possible Snape would have to kill DD if they couldn't manage to persuade
Draco to pull back from trying (if Draco didn't even try, then he might not
be considered to have seemed to fail in his attempt so the UV might not kick
in) and so they had a contingency plan which was that Snape would do it so
Draco wouldn't be guilty of it. Pretty bad planning by Dd to have reached
that stage though (and pretty stupid of Snape to have let himself get into
the UV in the first place).
But yes, it was a shock to all the other members of OoTP, although I don't
think they trusted Snape that much themselves - rather they all believed in
Dd completely, both his decisions and his strategy, and so were shocked at
how mistaken he appeared to have been in his trust of Snape.
DaveD
DaveD
"Frodo Baggins" <douf...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1168333259.2...@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
I've enjoyed the books so much, I desperately hope you're wrong in your last
paragraph - certainly the first 6 lead me to think that's not the case.
And yet...
I do have a problem with the basic premise that Dd knows almost everything
about everything; he has almost an omniscience about so many things. Yet he
misses apparently obvious stuff that others figure out with ease - the
basilisk, Quirrelmort, Lockhart. Some of it might be for character
development - people don't learn grow and develop if you spoon-feed them,
wipe their noses, and generally do everything for them. But Dd's
laissez-faire style seems downright brutal at times, allowing such danger.
Perhaps he thought it justified in the bigger picture because Voldy is such
a threat. Just as in a modern war, you accept you will lose some of your own
troops or people as part of the price in beating the enemy. But if that's
the case and he accepted these collateral losses, why did he try so hard to
save Draco? It doesn't add up.
DaveD
==
Eagerly awaiting book 7, though also with a lot of trepidation, for the
resolution of the story and the answer to this question!
acd
Frodo Baggins wrote:
> Dumbledore has visited many prisoners in Azkaban, was present at their
> trials too. I find it quite incredible that he was not shown to have
> visited someone like Sirius Black, for Sirius was a part of the Order,
> during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
> have been present at the prisoner debriefing. Sirius would have told
> him that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed with
> that information ever since. Sirius would have also told him that Peter
> was an animagi.
I could well imagine that Sirius did not tell this, as they were
illegal animagi
and did not want to be punished extra. My understanding is that the
being an unregistered animagus was one of the things that helped Sirius
survive and escape from Ascaban. He might have been shocked of not
being
saved from Ascaban by Dd so he did not trust him enough to tell this
secret.
> Dumbldore surely knew that Voldemort was "not dead" after the first
> battle. There was no body to be found, there was perhaps no wand. All
> this would have made him suspect that Voldemort was defeated, but not
> completely.
Agree, and so believe many, including Hagrid.
> It is quite certain that Dumbldore deduced that all the
> Horcruxes needed to be found and destroyed for Voldemort's eventual
> destruction and that until Horcruxes exist, Voldemort will rise again
> and again to terrorise the world.
Not sure. You seem to assume that Horcruxes are the only way to protect
against
death and that this was a well-known fact at least under advanced
wizards like
Dd. I do not believe both. We as readers are only introduced to
Horcruxes
as death-protection. But we do not have an idea what else exists in the
world
of dark magic.
And I think the character of Dd is that he does not want to get too
much involved
with dark arts. He knew enough about them to know that ways to protect
against death exist, but only seeing the diary and its effect gave him
enough information and impulse to
start researching the topic.
> I do not think the story can end without an angle where Dumbledore is
> shown to be "all knowing"
I think it can, it can end in a way that it is unknown what Dd knew and
planned
and that even some facts remain unclear to Harry and the reader and
that Harry decides in the same way as Dd not wanting to find out
because he does not
want to get in touch with dark arts more than necessary.
> He had kept lots of information away from people
> around him, eventually, this may prove to be detrimental.
I think he did not have that much information, Dd is an optimistic mind
who
knows that also his role in the entire history is limited.
If he keeps information from other people that it is either because he
thinks it is for their own good (Harry being too young) or because
it is a agreed secret betweem hin and another person (Snape).
> The only point I am not sure of is from what point did Dumbledore
> suspect the extent of Voldemort's foray into Horcrux magic.
As I said he has known that Voldemort was deep into dark magic but that
he himself did not want to study dark magic broadly ending up in
speculation
what kind of means Voldemort might use.
> If he did
> so during the "first war", then he must have been at work all the
> eleven years prior to PS in finding out about Horcruxes. If it happened
> only in the second year, after seeing the Diary, then he could not have
> suspected that Voldy could have been around in the first book,
He could, just not which way it happened.
> but
> cetainly, from the end of the first year, he would have had protections
> and detection devices around Hogwarts to prevent unauthorised entry.
I think it is like today at airports: you have to know what you are
searching.
You cannot simply block everything which is not authorized, you can
block
magic beasts individually, floo network, etc.
But than you overlook the cabinets.
Andreas
trinity
>trinity wrote:
>
>> Please consider the following:
>> back of his head.
>
>I agree with some of what you say. I'll point out the stuff I don't.
>
>> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on
>> #4 Privett that a house elf could pop in and out at will
>> (thankfully he meant no harm to Harry).
>
>Elf magic works differently than Human magic.
So an elf like Kreacher could have killed Harry if he was commanded ?
>
>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
>> was a fraud.
>
>No, In fact, most people thought he was for real. Pompous and
>annoying, but real.
I can't recall an instance where a single Hogwarts teacher took him
seriously.
>
>> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>
>One whom he thought would be safe (and who was, for the most part).
Thought would be safe... quite an assumption
>
>> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that
>> Harry may have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans,
>> he swiftly went into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher
>> who hates Harry's guts give him private lessons on blocking
>> out the thoughts. Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarits
>
>Uh, no. She was sent there by the Ministry, Even DD's power has some
>limits.
Because DD as respected as he was in the wizarding world could not get
a single witch or wizard to take the DADA job. If he was as smart as
we are led to believe, he had to know what would happen once the
ministry became involved at Hogwarts.
>
>> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched
>> Tom Riddle - This is your life.
>
>"Know your enemy".
Agreed..tho he could have shown him a counter-curse or two
>
>> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
>> terrible.
>
>Because he knew what was happening.
If he knew what was happening why would he take such a big risk? A lot
more people could have been killed. Who's smarter the person who knows
what's going to happen or the person who prevents it from happening at
all?
>
>> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that
>> the locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux. I thought
>> that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
>
>"Let" being the operative word here. You don't think DD could have
>kicked Draco's ass from Hogwarts to Drumstrang if he'd wanted to? But
>that's just it-he didn't want to. He wanted to TALK to him.
A supposition. I grant that he was weakened by the experience in the
sea cave. I don't disagree but don't you think that he was
endangering a lot of people while he was getting in touch with Dracos'
inner wuss?
>
>> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their
>> right mind thought could be trusted.
>
>Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's clear
>THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike me as being
>"in their right minds".
All the books are littered with references to the fact that everyone
was bewildered by DD's unwavering support for Snape.
>
>Catherine Johnson.
Toon
>Please consider the following:
>
>1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
>his parents & begrudged him. Put such powerful enchantments around the
>stone that 1st year students were able to break through to the stone.
>Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
>did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
Harry's safety necessitated the bad people. He just never dremaed
they'd be that pyschotic. Quiirrell alsow orked at Hogwarts already.
There as trust there.
The traps weren't desigend to eb advanced. Just deterents/attempts to
prove your worthiness oft he stone. It was the mirrors spell thtaw as
the true test. Of character. Nobody could get the stone that wnated
to use it for personal gain.
But there's no excuse for the Voldemort thingie. Old Codger.
>2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
>that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
>harm to Harry).
No, he didn't. The spell seemed to be Voldemrot speciifc, because he
tried already. And Elevs work on a different magical system. And
there's a chance it's bad to mix magic.
>Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
>was a fraud.
Barely anyone did. He was a cleebrity hero. The staff only figured
it out through perosnal experience that year.
>Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking
>students & was powerless to stop it.
Like Dippet before him.
>Also a cursed diary was using a
>1st year student to open the chamber, kill roosters & write on walls &
>DD couldn't figure it out.
Or did he suspect, and wnated to flush out whow as contorlling Ginny?
> A 12 year old figured out where the chamber
>was but DD couldn't? BTW the 12yr old did it in less than 8 months
>Dumbledore had 50 years.
Well, hew as distratced helping Hagrid, runnign the school, fighting
Voldemort.
>3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
Yeah so? Everybody but Snape loved him. best DADA teacher ever. or
from Harry's time.
>Found out that 3 students
>had taught themselves to be animagi and roamed the countryside once a
>month right under DD's nose.
He's not infallible.
>When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
Which worked.
>4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA.
Like he knew. This is why Voldemrot's firtsr eign was so terrifying.
The DE's were that good. Still fooled the Minsityr about whow as or
wasn't a true DE.
> Did not protest Harry
>being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even though it was apparent
>that his name was entered fraudulently by persons unknown with unknown
>intentions.
Definitley tyring to smoke the culprit out. And give Harry some V
fighting treaining. And look at the big compoets thereof. Friendhsip.
harry needed Neville's help, but didn't relaize it. Harry got help
form Dobby. Harry had to svae his friedn Ron. Harry figure dhe
mgitha s well save everybody else. Harry made dang sure to save
Gabriella at perosnal risk when Fluer was MIA.
OK, down side, hsi friendly nature inadverntly got Cedric killed. But
ehw as honst and fair. Could have taken the win for himself. instead,
he wanted the real Hogerats Champion to win.
>5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
>have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
>into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
>guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
Snape was the bets an safest option. But you'd think he'd have harry
spy on Vodlemort eveyr know and then. Voldie didn't seem to notice
for the first half year or so.
> Allowed
>Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to stop her.
No choice. He also probbaly used the time to fidn the enxt year's
teacher. a fetr all, the curse would emove ehr eventually, and scare
Fudge away form Hogwrats. why risk another MOM owrker?
> His
>apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach DADA
>himself since no one else was.
Whichw orked. Hrary learned to lead, which he'll probably have to do
int he final fight. He trianed many great warriors, 5 of whom joine
dhim at the MOM, and fought quite well against 12 of the top DE's
ever. Yes they lost, but they'r ekids fighting the top 12 greatest
DE's ever. It was neevr a guaranteed win. These 6 then fought
against more DE's at the Battle For Hogwarts. This was a greta diea
of DD's. Let Harry teach a secret society how to fight evil.
>Even though DD knew Voldemort was back
>he seemed to have little interest in preparing his students. His
>seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
>thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
>help Sirius.
But did expose V to the world. Umbridge and the DA gave him tiem to
fidn memories and track down a Horcrux. sirius was defintiley his
fault, yes. And he's done nothign for the students ebcause he's
convicned the prophecy will come true, which he always claism is
stupid to do, yet still does this oen time. perhaps form havign seen
a elgit prophecy made?
>6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
>Riddle - This is your life.
And that's what was needed. Know your enemy. harry ebgan to feel for
Voldemort. Harry confirled (however pointleslsy) DD's theories. I'm
almost positive the solution lies in a memory.
> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was
>planning something terrible.
He knew far better than harry whatw as going on. and he had his own
agenda. He's the headmatser. he doens't have to follow a 16 yera
old's sugestions. least of all a 16 year old who doens't know the
whole story.
>Took Harry with him into the sea cave but
>never noticed that the locket they were looking for was not the
>Horcrux.
Never had the chance. Harry only foudn out by accident. and who
knwos what DD did while flying. He might enevr had the time to tell
Harry.
> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>Let a 15 yr old disarm him
Planned. Draco would listen if he thought he ahd the upper hand.
> and was killed by Snape
Almost certainly planned.
>- a person that
>noboby in their right mind thought could be trusted.
Except DD, who clealry knows soemhtign we all don't. Somehting thta
would make it seem down right impossible toa ccept Snape just killing
DD because he's evil.
>Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
>wizard of the age?
Um, he was the greatets wizard of the age, he is old, and prone to a
few more msitakes. we alos know not eveyrhtign was a mistake, and we
still don't have the final few pieces to see if hew as truly stupid on
theose few poitns we're claling him on.
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> wrote:
> >trinity wrote:
> >
> >> Please consider the following:
> >> back of his head.
> >
> >I agree with some of what you say. I'll point out the stuff I don't.
> >
> >> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on
> >> #4 Privett that a house elf could pop in and out at will
> >> (thankfully he meant no harm to Harry).
> >
> >Elf magic works differently than Human magic.
>
> So an elf like Kreacher could have killed Harry if he was commanded ?
What does the one have to do with the other?
> >> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
> >> was a fraud.
> >
> >No, In fact, most people thought he was for real. Pompous
> >and annoying, but real.
>
> I can't recall an instance where a single Hogwarts teacher
> took him seriously.
His attitude annoys them.
> >> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
> >
> >One whom he thought would be safe (and who was, for the most part).
>
> Thought would be safe... quite an assumption
He was at as a student Hogwarts for seven years, and except for an
incident that was deliberately set up by other students, there'd been
no problems.
> >> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that
> >> Harry may have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans,
> >> he swiftly went into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher
> >> who hates Harry's guts give him private lessons on blocking
> >> out the thoughts. Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarits
> >
> >Uh, no. She was sent there by the Ministry, Even DD's power
> >has some limits.
>
> Because DD as respected as he was in the wizarding world could
> not get a single witch or wizard to take the DADA job.
That has nothing to do with respecting DD and more fear of the curse on
the job.
> If he was as smart as we are led to believe, he had to know
> what would happen once the ministry became involved at Hogwarts.
So his alternative was what, exactly?
> >> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
> >> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched
> >> Tom Riddle - This is your life.
> >
> >"Know your enemy".
>
> Agreed..tho he could have shown him a counter-curse or two
Harry already knows several, and there's no counter-curse for an AK.
> >> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
> >> terrible.
> >
> >Because he knew what was happening.
>
> If he knew what was happening why would he take such a big risk?
That's a darn good question. I'm merely pointing out that he wasn't
ignoring the warnings; he didn't need them. I agree that he should
have acted MUCH earlier than he did...
> A lot more people could have been killed.
You mean "people could have been killed" No one was. But, yes, they
could have been.
> >> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that
> >> the locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux. I thought
> >> that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
> >> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
> >
> >"Let" being the operative word here. You don't think DD could have
> >kicked Draco's ass from Hogwarts to Drumstrang if he'd wanted to?
> >But that's just it-he didn't want to. He wanted to TALK to him.
>
> A supposition.
Seriously... a sixth-year versus the most powerful wizard on the
planet?
I grant that he was weakened by the experience in the
> sea cave. I don't disagree but don't you think that he was
> endangering a lot of people while he was getting in touch
> with Dracos' inner wuss?
At THAT time, no. The only person in danger was DD.
> >> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their
> >> right mind thought could be trusted.
> >
> >Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's
> >clear THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike
> >me as being "in their right minds".
>
> All the books are littered with references to the fact that everyone
> was bewildered by DD's unwavering support for Snape.
No, the book is littered with HARRY wondering why DD trusts Snape.
Hardly an unbiased point of view.
Catherine Johnson.
Chip Stobb
>Please consider the following:
>
>1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
>his parents & begrudged him. Put such powerful enchantments around the
>stone that 1st year students were able to break through to the stone.
>Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
>did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
a) Sent Harry to the Dursley's as the charm necessary to protect him
was sealed with a bond of family/blood. This is the lesser of two
evils.
b) ...but these same enchantments kept Quirrel/Voldemort at bay for
the entire school year, and if Harry hadn't gotten the stone out of
the mirror it would have kept Quirrel/Voldemort guessing.
c) We don't knowwho else applied for the job, and according to what
Hagrid told Harry it appears that Quirrel was qualified for the
position.
d) Being a skilled Occlumens apparently does not require a body.
>2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
>that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
>harm to Harry). Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
>was a fraud. Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking
>students & was powerless to stop it.Also a cursed diary was using a
>1st year student to open the chamber, kill roosters & write on walls &
>DD couldn't figure it out. A 12 year old figured out where the chamber
>was but DD couldn't? BTW the 12yr old did it in less than 8 months
>Dumbledore had 50 years.
a) House elves have a magic all their own... which allows them to also
apparate within the Hogwarts grounds, even though humans are not able
to do so.
b) Lockhart was the ONLY applicant for the position.
c) Do you know of any place that has the ability to detect movement in
the plumbing? And remember that a heat sensor wouldn't work for this
purpose as snakes are cold-blooded.
d) We may be led to believe that Dumbledore suspected what was going
on as he asked Harry 'if he (Harry) had anything to tell him (DD).
e) As the matter appeared to have been settled 50 years prior, there
was no reason for Dumbledore to go looking (even though he might have
anyway).
>3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf. Found out that 3 students
>had taught themselves to be animagi and roamed the countryside once a
>month right under DD's nose. An alleged escaped killer was able to get
>into Hogwarts more than once and was actually living on the grounds.
>When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
a) All indications were that Remus Lupin was a good teacher - which he
was. And as long as he drank his wolfsbane potion on time, he wasn't
any problem.
b) So he's human.
c) Yes, but no one knew that Sirius was an animagus.
d) He was staying in a cave outside of Hogsmeade - NOT on the Hogwarts
grounds.
e) That was the plot twist, and it was necessary for Harry to see
himself perform the Patronus successfully.
>4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
>him for the entire year using polyjuice potion. Did not protest Harry
>being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even though it was apparent
>that his name was entered fraudulently by persons unknown with unknown
>intentions. Didn't notice the rampant cheating or the fact that Moody
>(Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help Harry win. The phony teacher
>was able to turn the trophy into a portkey transport 2 students off
>school grounds resulting in the death of one student & enabling the
>return of Voldemort.
a) And that proves that polyjuice potion works as it is supposed to.
b) He couldn't protest as the "binding magical contract" had been
created by Harry'sname coming out of the GoF. CSI would have checked
that particular piece of parchment for fingerprints, trace & DNA, but
they don't do that in the wizarding world.
c) Dumbledore trusted the individual that he thought was Moody.
NOTE: If Dumbledore's trust in the fake Moody was a clue, then it
could be ASSUMED that Dumbledore's trust in Snape is also suspect...
but there is no evidence to support this.
>5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
>have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
>into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
>guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts. Allowed
>Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to stop her. His
>apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach DADA
>himself since no one else was. Even though DD knew Voldemort was back
>he seemed to have little interest in preparing his students. His
>seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
>thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
>help Sirius.
a) Dumbledore avoided Harry in order for Voldy to not know that there
was more to the relationship. Remember that Voldemort uses people and
their relationships to his advantage.
b) Snape was the only person at Hogwarts besides Dumbledore who was a
capable Occlumens. Dumbledore admitted his mistake in believing that
Snape could let go of the past (ANOTHER CLUE TO SNAPE'S MENTALITY).
c) Dumbledore did not 'allow' Umbridge to come to Hogwarts - the MoM
forced her upon him when he was unable to find a DADA teacher.
d) Dumbledore wanted Harry to learn Occlumency. If he had done as
Dumbledore wished, then Harry would NOT have gone to the MoM. You can
lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
>6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
>Riddle - This is your life. Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was
>planning something terrible. Took Harry with him into the sea cave but
>never noticed that the locket they were looking for was not the
>Horcrux. I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>Let a 15 yr old disarm him and was killed by Snape - a person that
>noboby in their right mind thought could be trusted.
a) The purpose for learning about Riddle/Voldemort was to help Harry
to understand his enemy as completely as possible. Tisis basic
military strategy: if you understand your enemy's tactics, then you
shoudlbe able to out-think, out-plan, and out-work him.
b) Dumbledore told Draco that he was aware of his actions, but as
nothing had happened it was better to not tip his hand until he had
to.
b) At the point intime where they were able to get to the locket,
Dumbledore was already incapacitated by the potion he had consumed.
Also, they were surrounded by Dark forces that added more Dark energy
to the mix.
c) Dumbledore made a choice to freeze Harry and let himself be
disarmed by Draco - who he didn't believe would kill him. He trusted
Draco AND Snape, and was betrayedy his own Judas.
d) McGonagall, Lupin, Flitwick, etc. all trusted Snape because
Dumbledore trusted him.
>Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
>wizard of the age?
Dumbledore himself admitted that his mistakes were greater than
others. He had the sense and humility to see this about himself.
Greatest wizard? We know of Dumbledore's accomplishments, mainly from
the chocolate frog card as well as the words of those who knew him
(i.e. Madam Marchbanks, OWL and NEWT testing witch: "He did things
with a wand that I had never seen."). Also, he was the only wizard
that Voldemort ever feared. That in itself would send hinm to the top
of the list.
The only competitor Dumbledore appears to have had for the title of
"The Greatest" (with my apologies to Muhammed Ali) would be Voldemort.
Remembr what Ollivander told Harry when he bought his wand:
"He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible, yes - but
great."
- Chip
"Ignorance is bliss, and we're in Nirvana." - C. Stobb
Jano
> Please consider the following:
(funny snip)
> Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
> wizard of the age?
It's because JKR says so. And because the rest of wizards are even more
clueless. That's also the reason dark wizards haven't taken over the world
from muggles ;)
Seriously, some of your points are stronger than others (and you could add
more, like DD fooled to leave in CoS, or ignoring Harry's warn that
something was going on just before leaving for the cave in HBP), but in the
end there are two facts that JKR has to reconcile: one, the principal
character to whom things have to happen is a kid not particularly
brilliant; second, the baddies are grown men. It's hard not to have some
problems there.
--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/Aug/05]
trinity
>trinity wrote:
>
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >trinity wrote:
>> >
>> >> Please consider the following:
>> >> back of his head.
>> >
>> >I agree with some of what you say. I'll point out the stuff I don't.
>> >
>> >> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on
>> >> #4 Privett that a house elf could pop in and out at will
>> >> (thankfully he meant no harm to Harry).
>> >
>> >Elf magic works differently than Human magic.
>>
>> So an elf like Kreacher could have killed Harry if he was commanded ?
>
>What does the one have to do with the other?
He created the enchantments to protect Harry from danger... it seems
that he overlooked the possibility that someone or something other
than Voldemort might want to kill Harry. So it wasn't much of a
deterrent.
>
>> >> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew
>> >> was a fraud.
>> >
>> >No, In fact, most people thought he was for real. Pompous
>> >and annoying, but real.
>>
>> I can't recall an instance where a single Hogwarts teacher
>> took him seriously.
>
>His attitude annoys them.
And they thought he was a joke.. DD should have known he was hiring a
pompous fool.
>
>> >> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>> >
>> >One whom he thought would be safe (and who was, for the most part).
>>
>> Thought would be safe... quite an assumption
>
>He was at as a student Hogwarts for seven years, and except for an
>incident that was deliberately set up by other students, there'd been
>no problems.
You are taking a risk.. simply because no one had been hurt before is
no reason to think it would never happen. His forgetting to take his
potion led to the ultimate escape of wormtail & we know how that
worked out.
>
>> >> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that
>> >> Harry may have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans,
>> >> he swiftly went into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher
>> >> who hates Harry's guts give him private lessons on blocking
>> >> out the thoughts. Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarits
>> >
>> >Uh, no. She was sent there by the Ministry, Even DD's power
>> >has some limits.
>>
>> Because DD as respected as he was in the wizarding world could
>> not get a single witch or wizard to take the DADA job.
>
>That has nothing to do with respecting DD and more fear of the curse on
>the job.
The fear of the curse didn't seem to bother the ministry. Was Umbridge
more loyal & dedicated to Fudge than any qualified wizard was to
Dumbledore?
>
>> If he was as smart as we are led to believe, he had to know
>> what would happen once the ministry became involved at Hogwarts.
>
>So his alternative was what, exactly?
He also could have given the DADA job to Snape... that would have
hardly been worse than Umbridge.
In addition, don't you think it was negligent to to have such
sub-standard teachers for something as important as Defense Against
the Dark Arts?
>
>> >> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>> >> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched
>> >> Tom Riddle - This is your life.
>> >
>> >"Know your enemy".
>>
>> Agreed..tho he could have shown him a counter-curse or two
>
>Harry already knows several, and there's no counter-curse for an AK.
>
>> >> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
>> >> terrible.
>> >
>> >Because he knew what was happening.
>>
>> If he knew what was happening why would he take such a big risk?
>
>That's a darn good question. I'm merely pointing out that he wasn't
>ignoring the warnings; he didn't need them. I agree that he should
>have acted MUCH earlier than he did...
>
>> A lot more people could have been killed.
>
>You mean "people could have been killed" No one was. But, yes, they
>could have been.
Dumbledore was killed. A deatheater was killed.
>
>> >> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that
>> >> the locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux. I thought
>> >> that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>> >> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
>> >
>> >"Let" being the operative word here. You don't think DD could have
>> >kicked Draco's ass from Hogwarts to Drumstrang if he'd wanted to?
>> >But that's just it-he didn't want to. He wanted to TALK to him.
>>
>> A supposition.
>
>Seriously... a sixth-year versus the most powerful wizard on the
>planet?
Harry had gotten the best of Voldemort 5 times by then.
It is not unheard of.
>
>I grant that he was weakened by the experience in the
>> sea cave. I don't disagree but don't you think that he was
>> endangering a lot of people while he was getting in touch
>> with Dracos' inner wuss?
>
>At THAT time, no. The only person in danger was DD.
There was a fight raging at the bottom of the stairs below them.
>
>> >> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their
>> >> right mind thought could be trusted.
>> >
>> >Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's
>> >clear THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike
>> >me as being "in their right minds".
>>
>> All the books are littered with references to the fact that everyone
>> was bewildered by DD's unwavering support for Snape.
>
>No, the book is littered with HARRY wondering why DD trusts Snape.
>Hardly an unbiased point of view.
OoP members wondered. The Weasleys, Lupin & Sirius (they are also not
without bias)
>
>Catherine Johnson.
trinity
<mcke...@NOSPAMmidwest.com.au> wrote:
>"trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote in message
>news:mtn5q2tl12e2k7vpv...@4ax.com...
>> Please consider the following:
>
>Now I'm going to assume perhaps foolishly, for a moment, that you are making
>a serious commentary here and not stirring up shit for the sake of it
>(probably more likely) and look at your points and their various merits.
>
>> 1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
>> his parents & begrudged him.
>
>As he explained to them at the beginning of HBP he anticipated that, being
>family, they would raise and treat Harry as one of their own. This
>obviously didn't take place. However the fact that they granted him
>houseroom did preserve his life in those early years, as was Dumbledore's
>intent.
What he anticipated didn't occur. So, he was wrong.
>
>> Put such powerful enchantments around the stone that 1st year
>> students were able to break through to the stone.
>
>True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
>only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
>own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
They were children.
>
>> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
>> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
>
>Two points there.
>1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
>chose him for the job.
>2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
>teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
>difficult to find someone to fill the position.
>
No, but what are the odds that DD hires a guy who goes traipsing off
to Albania & runs into Voldemort. Plus he was an easily frightened
stuttering coward. Not exactly what you would want to teach DADA.
>> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
>> that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
>> harm to Harry).
>
>As they can do in Hogwarts itself.
What is your point?
>
>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
>
>He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
>many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
>Also see point 2 about Quirrell.
>
>> Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking students &
>> was powerless to stop it.
>
>Till the actions of Ginny under the influence of the diary released it the
>monster was believed to be a legend. As for Dumbledore and his ability to
>stop this it was made clear that the onle ones with that ability were those
>who could also access the chamber itself. At that point only Harry and Ginny
>(under posession by Tom) could do so.
No, DD knew it was true, the students were told it was a legend. DD
was the Transfiguration Professor when Myrtle was killed 50 years ago.
Dumbledore never even figured out where the chamber entrance was or
that it was a basilisk & he had 50 years to work on it.
>
>> Also a cursed diary was using a 1st year student to open the chamber,
>> kill roosters & write on walls & DD couldn't figure it out. A 12 year
>> old figured out where the chamber was but DD couldn't? BTW the
>> 12yr old did it in less than 8 months Dumbledore had 50 years.
>
>See above.
>
>> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>
>See point 2 about Quirrell. Also, as when he was a student, there was no
>reason to believe that, without suitable precautions, that it would have
>been unsafe. It was Pettigrew's presence that prompted his oversight that
>evening, understandably in that instance.
What exactly are "suitable precautions" - here drink this! Not to
mention the fact that he hired a teacher that he knew at the very
least would be ill for several days each month or at the very worst
might forget his wolfsbane potion & go on a kill crazy rampage at the
school.
>
>> Found out that 3 students had taught themselves to be animagi and
>> roamed the countryside once a month right under DD's nose.
>
>After the fact and ultimately quite irrelevant.
Exactly my point! AFTER the fact...Relevant to DD's formidable powers
of observation
>
>> An alleged escaped killer was able to get into Hogwarts more than
>> once and was actually living on the grounds.
>
>Nobody, barring Lupin and the presumably deceased Pettigrew, would have been
>aware of Sirius' ability. Why would have Dumbledore?
You are making my points for me.
>
>> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
>
>And in doing so saved two innocent lives. Certainly a useful disposition of
>available manpower and resources.
He sent children,,, good job.
>
>> 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
>> him for the entire year using polyjuice potion.
>
>And everyone else.
DD is not supposed to be like everyone else.... The greatest wizard in
the world remember?
>
>> Did not protest Harry being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even
>> though it was apparent that his name was entered fraudulently by
>> persons unknown with unknown intentions.
>
>Was forced unwillingly, as was Harry, to abide by a 'binding magical
>contract'.
I am not sure that you can have a binding magical contract if one of
the parties was entered into it without their knowledge or consent.
>> Didn't notice the rampant cheating.
>
>Not being an administrator what could he have done about it if he had. Also
>faux Moody's statement about Dumbledore being as high minded as he pleases
>not preventing Maxine and Karkaroff from cheating implied that he was at the
>least aware of it.
Headmaster at the host school & seemed to be the arbitrator of most
Triwizard issued
>
>> or the fact that Moody (Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help
>> Harry win. The phony teacher was able to turn the trophy into
>> a portkey transport 2 students off school grounds resulting in
>> the death of one student & enabling the return of Voldemort.
>
>Once again not being an administrator of the contest how could he be held
>responsable for the actions within?
He's not a potted plant.. he is supposed to be a great wizard but he
seems to miss a lot of stuff happening right in front of him.
>
>> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
>> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
>> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
>> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
>
>If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
>Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
>time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
He couldn't possibly have expected Harry & Snape to work well
together.. knowing full well that they hated each other's guts.
His decision actually make the hatred deeper.
>
>> Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to
>> stop her.
>
>First off that is an utterly false statement. He didn't allow her to come,
>she was placed there by the ministry. As for stopping her, stopping her
>doing what? Prior to Dumbledore's departure she was little more than a
>nasty piece of work. It was after that when she assumed the mantle of head
>that she became truly dangerous.
Actually it is utterly accurate.He allowed her to come by failing to
hire a DADA teacher. As the headmaster he has a responsibility to the
students not to allow "nasty pieces of work" free reign. She was
evaluating teachers, outlawing group meetings, physically abusing
students & firing Trewlawny before DD was removed from office.
>
>> His apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach
>> DADA himself since no one else was.
>
>Not so, the ministry's appointment of a useless teacher to the DADA position
>led Hermione to suggest to Harry that he teach them practical DADA. Both to
>succeed in their studies and to be prepared now Voldemort was back.
Sigh,, fish in a barrel. Lack of interest in a useless teacher.
Led Harry to try to teach Defense Against Dark Arts. I didn't want to
bore everyone with a synopsis of what led to Harry's decision. But
again, as the Headmaster & worlds greatest wizard doesn't DD bear a
little responsibility in this area?
>
>> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back he seemed to have
>> little interest in preparing his students.
>
>That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definately aware of the DA right
>from it's inception and did nothing to prevent it's activities despite it
>being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
It is not unknown... look at the roster of DADA professors over the
years, it's a wonder the students learned to do anything. Lupin is the
only one that wasn't almost completely useless.
>
>> His seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
>> thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
>> help Sirius.
>
>Not at all, by this point Dumbledore was gone from the school and well out
>of the picture from Harry's point of view. It was Voldemort's trickery that
>led Harry to the ministry and his own mistrust in Snape that prevented him
>from seeking external assistance in doing so.
Exactly.. gone from the school, well out of the picture... in other
words DD was not very helpful at that point.
>
>> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
>> Riddle - This is your life.
>
>Yes.
>
>> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
>> terrible.
>
>Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was explained
>later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to protect his
>(Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
& in the process allowed 2 students to be nearly murdered & eventually
led to the Deatheaters attacking inside the school. All to protect the
Malfoys? I'm sure if he was able to explain it that way to Mrs.
Weasley she'd understand completely & forget all about Bill's face.
>
>> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that the
>> locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux.
>
>That was undetermined as after they had retrieved the locket events
>prevented any discussion of it.
So you are agreeing DD didn't know.
>
>> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>
>As far as we were made aware he was able to 'feel' that the place had known
>magic. There was no more detail than that.
>
When they first saw the island in the middle of the lake, Harry asked
DD if the horcrux was there & DD said "yes, I am sure of it" - look
it up
>> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
>
>Because he had acted to protect Harry first by immobilising him, preventing
>his own defence.
And Harry's ability to defend himself if he was discovered - good plan
>
>> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their right
>> mind thought could be trusted.
>
>On the contrary, everyone barring Harry and maybe Ron believed Snape to be
>their ally and as Deathly Hallowes has yet to be released the question of
>Snape's loyalty remains uncertain.
>
>> Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
>> wizard of the age?
>
>I can't help you, if you're determined to see the books in such a negative
>light or even if you're just trolling along for a response then anything
>that I would write here would be a wasted excercise.
I am not trolling... I am discussing the books, the characters & plot
devices, books which I have read several times and enjoy very much.
You wrote an awful lot for a wasted exercise... I will agree with you
however, it was a bit of a waste as you were unable to answer my
question.
Jean Lamb
news:45a3...@quokka.wn.com.au...
> "trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote in message
> As he explained to them at the beginning of HBP he anticipated that, being
> family, they would raise and treat Harry as one of their own. This
> obviously didn't take place. However the fact that they granted him
> houseroom did preserve his life in those early years, as was Dumbledore's
> intent.
--And of course he never checked--although apparently he _did_ check enough
to know something was wrong (cf office conversation, fifth book)--and did
squat about it. One Howler isn't going to change that kind of
situation--depending on how Vernon reacts to the show of magic, could make
it worse.
> True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
> only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
> own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
--And of course nobody kept any eye on them, either, despite a known
propensity to break rules, possession of an Invisibility Cloak, and the
careful dropping of clues. They were being set up to find the Stone,
obviously.
> Two points there.
> 1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
> chose him for the job.
> 2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
> teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
> difficult to find someone to fill the position.
--Still doesn't explain why the portraits in Quirrell's quarters didn't
report the Voldemort intrusion--I mean, he's got to change the turban _some_
time. (Why didn't the elves report having to clean Voldie-drool off of them,
anyway...bribing a laundress is a tried and true method throughout history
to spy on a household).
>> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
>> that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
>> harm to Harry).
>
> As they can do in Hogwarts itself.
--And there are no house elves in the hands of the enemy? Winky would cry
and cry while she was ordered to kill Harry, but she'd give it her best
short.
> See point 2 about Quirrell. Also, as when he was a student, there was no
> reason to believe that, without suitable precautions, that it would have
> been unsafe. It was Pettigrew's presence that prompted his oversight that
> evening, understandably in that instance.
--At this point in time Snape is the only DADA teacher who hasn't tried to
kill Harry Potter. Seems like a trend to me so far.
>> An alleged escaped killer was able to get into Hogwarts more than
>> once and was actually living on the grounds.
>
> Nobody, barring Lupin and the presumably deceased Pettigrew, would have
> been aware of Sirius' ability. Why would have Dumbledore?
--If people can get in and out of Hogwarts this easily, it's amazing they're
not all dead yet.
>> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
>
> And in doing so saved two innocent lives. Certainly a useful disposition
> of available manpower and resources.
--Er, aren't there _some_ tasks adults should really be responsible for? Of
course this is a children's series, where the adults are
absent/incompetent/seriously unknowing in order to allow the children to
shine.
>> 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
>> him for the entire year using polyjuice potion.
>
> And everyone else.
--Snape kept voicing suspicions. But again, if the adults acted like
responsible adults, there wouldn't be a series.
> If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
> Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
> time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
--Harry didn't hold up his end either. Should Dumbledore have anticipated
that as well? Harry could have gone back for more lessons, but God forbid he
should ever have to apologize for _anything_.
> That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definately aware of the DA
> right from it's inception and did nothing to prevent it's activities
> despite it being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
--Well, what was he going to do? He wasn't there most of the time anyway.
> Not at all, by this point Dumbledore was gone from the school and well out
> of the picture from Harry's point of view. It was Voldemort's trickery
> that led Harry to the ministry and his own mistrust in Snape that
> prevented him from seeking external assistance in doing so.
--Precisely. But why didn't he go to some other trusted adult--silly
question, children's series again.
> Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was
> explained later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to
> protect his (Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
--Again, which almost resulted in the deaths of two students. Gryffindors at
that. We were used by book 6 to have him not care about Slytherins or any
other house, actually. (then again, he almost let the Trio be eaten by
Lupin...).
>> and was killed by Snape - a person that noboby in their right
>> mind thought could be trusted.
>
> On the contrary, everyone barring Harry and maybe Ron believed Snape to be
> their ally and as Deathly Hallowes has yet to be released the question of
> Snape's loyalty remains uncertain.
--I do have to agree with this one, with the exception of Moody and Sirius
Black in the fifth book. (say, whatever happened to Moody in the sixth one?
Wonder if he'll show up in book 7 ready to help Harry make mincemeat out of
Snape).
> I can't help you, if you're determined to see the books in such a negative
> light or even if you're just trolling along for a response then anything
> that I would write here would be a wasted excercise.
> --
> Deevo
> Geraldton Western Australia
> http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm
>
--There are a number of valid questions here that you're deflecting by
accusation of trolling. Nice try.
--
Jean Lamb, tlamb...@charter.net
"Research is hard. Torturing heroes is fun."--Mary Jo Putney
http://www.livejournal.com/~excessiveperky/
Nella
> >> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
> >
> >He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
> >many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
>
> DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
> easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
It's pretty interesting that in OoP, DD says to Harry that he is "a
sufficiently accomplished Legilimens" to know when he is being lied to.
If he's not exaggerating, he must have known Lockhart was a fraud.
He might have had to hire Lockhart since he was the only candidate for
the job, but there's still the case of fake Moody. If DD is as
accomplished a wizard as he's supposed to be, how could he have missed
the fact that there was a Death Eater at Hogwarts, eating at the same
table with him every day.
Toon
>Judging by the shocked reactions of McGonagall and Lupin, it's clear
>THEY did not think Snape was a killer. Both of them strike me as being
>"in their right minds".
And Lupin had the most reason to doubt Snape. between their child
rivalries and Snape outing him as a werewolf 3 years ago.
Toon
wrote:
>I am not sure if Dumbledore is aware of all the secrets that are a part
>of Hogwarts, some of it may be hidden even from him for the founders
>were perhaps as crafty and powerful as any of the modern day
Weren't they supposed to be like the best of the best of their time?
At least for England. And even Dd never learned about the Room of
Requirement, even after accidentally finding it. In fact, Harry had
to learn about it from the help.
>magicians. If a few fourth years can come up with something akin to the
>Marauders Map, I am sure Dumbledore can too.
Some of us believe he has his own, more powerful version that
Headmasters use to keep track of things. But the Marauder's did have
some limits, time travelers. People with the same name.
>all the goings on. From the time that Scabbers appeared, Hermione had
>gotten hold of Crookshanks which was perhaps Dumbledore's way of
>keeping track of Scabbers.
Seems amight hard to guarantee she'd take him in, without bewitching
her.
Did Hemrione ever get clearance to keep a half Kneazle in her muggle
home?
>during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
>have been present at the prisoner debriefing.
Why? That's police work, and he's not the police. He was the leader
of a rebel group.
> Sirius would have told
>him that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed with
>that information ever since. Sirius would have also told him that Peter
>was an animagi. It is quite inconveivable that Dumbledore neither knew
>that Peter was alive or that he was at Hogwarts in the form of a rat.
And yet he never knew Sirius was an animagus, and it wouldn't be much
of a leap to go from poor, near squib Peter being an animagus to the
marauders as well.
DD isn't infallible. He has to miss some things.
>Dumbldore surely knew that Voldemort was "not dead" after the first
>battle.
He admits it. He began planning for his inevitable return. Hence the
ancient magic at the Durselys. If he thought Voldemort dead, he'd
have no need to make such a protection.
>completely. It is quite certain that Dumbldore deduced that all the
>Horcruxes needed to be found and destroyed for Voldemort's eventual
>destruction and that until Horcruxes exist, Voldemort will rise again
>and again to terrorise the world.
Except he didn't suspect a horcrux was used until COS. He seemed to
have pondered the possibility, but came up with no hard evidence until
Harry described Diary Tom.
>I do not think the story can end without an angle where Dumbledore is
>shown to be "all knowing" who let these things happen for development
>of Harry's character and for the eventual complete destruction of
>Voldemort's powers.
Except the whole point is, he's not all knowing, and he tells Harry he
does make mistakes. Spectacular ones. Thinking Snape outgrew his
childhood scarring. Thinking Siirus could stay bottled up in a house
he once ran away from.
>He had kept lots of information away from people
>around him, eventually, this may prove to be detrimental. He thought he
>would be around to see thru till the finish, I am sure he will be :)).
Or an impression thereof.
>The only point I am not sure of is from what point did Dumbledore
>suspect the extent of Voldemort's foray into Horcrux magic. If he did
>so during the "first war", then he must have been at work all the
>eleven years prior to PS in finding out about Horcruxes.
And he wasn't.
> If it happened
>only in the second year, after seeing the Diary, then he could not have
>suspected that Voldy could have been around in the first book,
Yet he still knew Voldie could be back. That he wasn't truly
destroyed.
>but
>cetainly, from the end of the first year, he would have had protections
>and detection devices around Hogwarts to prevent unauthorised entry.
And he did. he had lost of protection. But still, they were not
designed for what he did not know. Unregistered animaguses,
polyjuiced people.
>I may have got it all wrong.
Yes. You missed a few points mentioned in the book. And you seem
convinced Dd is an all knowing, infallible being.
> JKR may just think that her fans are all
>idiots and expect them to read bullet hole ridden plots and enjoy the
>whole lot. If that is the case, from some point of the story buildup,
>she has found herself out of her depth without knowing how to get back.
Nope & nope. She knows exactly where's she's going. Though the route
has and can exchange slightly.
Toon
<davedn...@THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote:
>I do have a problem with the basic premise that Dd knows almost everything
>about everything;
He's not supposed to. That's Harry's childlike view. Part of the
reason Tommy always feared the guy.
>he has almost an omniscience about so many things. Yet he
>misses apparently obvious stuff that others figure out with ease
He's liek the Professor on Gilligans Island. Always knows aboutt he
current crises at hand, even minimally, builds a foot pedla powered
drill for dental work, a foot pedal powered taxi Gilligan drove, yet
is completley stymied over repairing a guant hole in a boat.
I won't even touch the cartoon series where they build a rocket and
end up stranded on another planet.
> But if that's
>the case and he accepted these collateral losses, why did he try so hard to
>save Draco? It doesn't add up.
He needed Snape to do it. besides, not everybody is collateral
damage. Draco, and Narcissa could have vital info Lucius told them or
Voldemort spoke about in Draco's presence.
Toon
>Plus he was an easily frightened
>stuttering coward. Not exactly what you would want to teach DADA.
No, he faked that after a harrowing experience on his journey. DD knew
the real Quirrell was anything but. In fact, I think the whole point
is he went on his journey that Summer to study up for his new
position, then faked it all when he got back end of July.
Frodo Baggins
That is a brilliant point Nella, totally convincing. I forgot totally
about the Legilimens part of it. It goes on to fortify my points above
that DD is (I cant bring myself to say was!) an "all knowing"
personality in the series. Not too many wizards, that too a Lockhart
and a Barty Crouch Jr would have been able to block out DD.
My essential argument is this: Given that LV has the power to
perpetuate his life by means of the Horcruxes that he had created, DD
knew that finding and eliminating these is the only way to LVs eventual
destruction. I do not know at what point DD came to suspect this, but
from that point (either sometime in PS/CoS or all along from the "first
war") onwards, DD knew that they were fighting a losing battle unless
they find the Horcruxes. He knew that many more lives will be lost by
allowing more incarnations of LV. So finding the Horcruxes was the key.
He knew that many will have to sacrifice their lives for this cause,
but also knew that unless they triumphed, their lives wont be worth
living. So any conclusion to the story that totally ignores these
points would be farcical.
trinity
I think he was not much different... nobody seems to think that the
fact he was scared of his own shadow was out of character for him..
I have to believe he was always like that. Besides Voldemort was
controlling his actions - he would not want him to behave any
differently than usual.
RLA 12
him for the entire year using polyjuice potion. Did not protest Harry
being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even though it was apparent that
his name was entered fraudulently by persons unknown with unknown
intentions."
--------
this is one of the few things that bugged me. i would have liked to see
harry and ron writing their names down on a piece of paper. then harry's
mysteriously disappear. perhaps moody giving Ron a small pep talk about
writing his name down as a joke and posting it on the Gryffindor wall.
This scenario has its flaws too. but to be legally binded to a contract
you never signed, bothers me.
just my double-o-pennies
RLA 12
RLA 12
"Dumbledore has visited many prisoners in Azkaban, was present at their
trials too. I find it quite incredible that he was not shown to have
visited someone like Sirius Black, for Sirius was a part of the Order,
during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
have been present at the prisoner debriefing. Sirius would have told him
that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed with that
information ever since. Sirius would have also told him that Peter was
an animagi."
IIRC did not Sirius himself believe Peter to be dead. blew himself and
a city block up when sirius chased him down after the Potter's death.
then sirius being captured by the MOM and laughing hysterically (trying
to recall without the book). Would it not have been Dumbledore who told
the MOM that Sirius was the secret keeper (thusly did not know Peter
was)? If i am remembering POA correctly. (My favorite book, the writng,
the backstories, the marauders then and now, dementors, divination,
excellent. The movie also had a great lupin and raggy Sirius scene in
the shack.)
now if only they had actual Snakes...on the Howgwarts train. we are
talking film history...maybe not.
RLA 12
Frodo Baggins
> Frodo Baggins wrote:
>
> > Dumbledore has visited many prisoners in Azkaban, was present at their
> > trials too. I find it quite incredible that he was not shown to have
> > visited someone like Sirius Black, for Sirius was a part of the Order,
> > during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
> > have been present at the prisoner debriefing. Sirius would have told
> > him that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed with
> > that information ever since. Sirius would have also told him that Peter
> > was an animagi.
>
> I could well imagine that Sirius did not tell this, as they were
My whole point was Dumbledore would have known who the betrayer was and
that Peter was alive. That he did or didnot know his capabilities as an
animagi is a minor point since he would surely have detected Peter's
presence in the school by other means.
> > Dumbldore surely knew that Voldemort was "not dead" after the first
> > battle. There was no body to be found, there was perhaps no wand. All
> > this would have made him suspect that Voldemort was defeated, but not
> > completely.
>
> Agree, and so believe many, including Hagrid.
>
> > It is quite certain that Dumbldore deduced that all the
> > Horcruxes needed to be found and destroyed for Voldemort's eventual
> > destruction and that until Horcruxes exist, Voldemort will rise again
> > and again to terrorise the world.
>
> Not sure. You seem to assume that Horcruxes are the only way to protect
> against
> death and that this was a well-known fact at least under advanced
> wizards like
> Dd. I do not believe both. We as readers are only introduced to
> Horcruxes
> as death-protection. But we do not have an idea what else exists in the
> world
> of dark magic.
> And I think the character of Dd is that he does not want to get too
> much involved
> with dark arts. He knew enough about them to know that ways to protect
> against death exist, but only seeing the diary and its effect gave him
> enough information and impulse to
> start researching the topic.
>
Come on. Knowing about Dark arts is one thing. USING it is another, I
am sure DD will go any lengths to avoid using it, but if required, he
will not be foolish enough to stop himself from knowing about it. If
one takes a blinkers on approach you suggest, not knowing what Dark
magic LV is capable of, LV can never be conquered. Knowing about
Horcruxes is absolutely necessary to overcome them. OK, from the point
that LV is was not completely dead, DD has come to the conclusion that
LV has used some dark magic. He perhaps went about finding out as much
information from LV's former teachers as he could. Question is when
did Slughorn give the Horcrux information to DD? No question that DD
suspected that Horcruxes magic was used. When? After first year?
>
> > I do not think the story can end without an angle where Dumbledore is
> > shown to be "all knowing"
>
> I think it can, it can end in a way that it is unknown what Dd knew and
> planned
> and that even some facts remain unclear to Harry and the reader and
> that Harry decides in the same way as Dd not wanting to find out
> because he does not
> want to get in touch with dark arts more than necessary.
>
Sure. It can end that way with many loose ends, which are unexplained.
However, we are looking at what can be a logical conclusion assuming
JKR is good enough to write one.
> > He had kept lots of information away from people
> > around him, eventually, this may prove to be detrimental.
>
> I think he did not have that much information, Dd is an optimistic mind
> who
> knows that also his role in the entire history is limited.
This is certainly not correct. DD knows that he is perhaps the only
Wizard in the world able to defeat LV in a face to face battle if it
comes to that. He also knows quite a lot about LV and his life story.
These lead to suspicions that DD had about the source and nature of LVs
power, but no conclusions. The amount of work the DD has put in cannot
go waste and that is his role in history. Given this crucial role, he
has cetainly kept lot of information from people around him. For eg:
for a person who works on his own and kept all that information from
others around him, would DD have been foolish enough to get into a
situation that he will be easily overcome? Why didnt DD block the
"Expel..." curse first and THEN freeze Harry? No, I dont think all this
adds up.
> If he keeps information from other people that it is either because he
> thinks it is for their own good (Harry being too young) or because
> it is a agreed secret betweem hin and another person (Snape).
>
These are not secrets of personal nature. I am talking of the
information that DD has gleaned which will help in defeating LV.
> > The only point I am not sure of is from what point did Dumbledore
> > suspect the extent of Voldemort's foray into Horcrux magic.
> As I said he has known that Voldemort was deep into dark magic but that
> he himself did not want to study dark magic broadly ending up in
> speculation
> what kind of means Voldemort might use.
>
> > If he did
> > so during the "first war", then he must have been at work all the
> > eleven years prior to PS in finding out about Horcruxes. If it happened
> > only in the second year, after seeing the Diary, then he could not have
> > suspected that Voldy could have been around in the first book,
>
> He could, just not which way it happened.
My point is that he would have taken enough precautions to protect his
school and its students. He is helpless against LV when Horcruxes are
around. If he destroys LV, that will drive him underground and one
needs to start all over again. At that time, it was better if LV
attempts to come around and try to regain his form. So if LV was known
to be in the school, DD would have taken a wait and watch approach, to
see what he is up to. Again, even after that, DD cannot "kill" him in a
direct battle, he did not attempt to do the same in MoM confrontation.
He tried to capture him but could not. Only if LV is captured, can the
Horcrux location be gleaned from him. Otherwise it is a guessing game.
So even with LV back in his original form, DD gains nothing by killing
him. He knows that some lives will be lost in this form or wait and
watch confrontation. But what else to be done?
>
> > but
> > cetainly, from the end of the first year, he would have had protections
> > and detection devices around Hogwarts to prevent unauthorised entry.
>
> I think it is like today at airports: you have to know what you are
> searching.
> You cannot simply block everything which is not authorized, you can
> block
> magic beasts individually, floo network, etc.
> But than you overlook the cabinets.
>
Yes. As I mentioned before, DD does not know everything about the
school. Many things may be hidden from even him.
> Andreas
Matt Clara
> Please consider the following:
>
<snip many good points>
They may be good points but they aren't valid points, because in this
fantasy series, Dumbledore is the patriarchal spirit guide--he can point the
way, but he can't solve Harry's problems for him.
Sirius Kase
Almost right. His basic personallity should not change by more than
can be accounted for with a harrowing experience. So, yeah, the
stuttering and edginess might be faked. Or might not. It's been quie
a few years into the curse and competent DADA teachers are hard to find.
Sirius Kase
After being Harry's teacher for a couple of months, Crouch was probably
very good at forging Harry's handwriting. If not him, someone else.
They had plenty of time.
What bothers me is that DD didn[t dispute the contract. Even if it is
binding and a dispute would not get Harry out of it, it would have made
it clear that Dumbledore wasn't the cheater as the other headmasters
thought. But, they might have accused him anyway thinking his protest
to be an act.
Fish Eye no Miko
> I think he was not much different... nobody seems to think
> that the fact he was scared of his own shadow was out of
> character for him..
"They say he met vampires in the Black Forest...never been the same
since."
-Hagrid, _HP & the Sorcerer's Stone_
Catherine Johnson.
Sirius Kase
Even so, as trinity provides many examples, Dumbledore isn't as great
as Harry thinks he is. But, neither is he as stupid as those same
examples might make him appear.
It's a natural develepment in a mentor/mentee relationship for the
mentee to hold the mentor in higher regard than is accurate and then
when flaws appear, to consider the mentor to be an idiot. Either the
relationship will fail or it will hold together long enough to settle
in a more mature relationship where strengths and weaknesses are
understood and accepted.
This first happens for most people with a parent. When you are very
young, your parents are (or seem to be) the most powerful, wise people
in the world. But, they occassionally let you down. By the time you
are a teen, you may think one or the other to be either stupid or evil.
If you are lucky enough to maintain a relationship when you are an
adult, then you might forgive them for being human and relate as
adults, assuming they recognize that you are no longer a child.
Similar things happen with other relationships where one person starts
out on a pedestal with respect to the other.
Nella
> > It's pretty interesting that in OoP, DD says to Harry that he is "a
> > sufficiently accomplished Legilimens" to know when he is being lied to.
> > If he's not exaggerating, he must have known Lockhart was a fraud.
> >
> > He might have had to hire Lockhart since he was the only candidate for
> > the job, but there's still the case of fake Moody. If DD is as
> > accomplished a wizard as he's supposed to be, how could he have missed
> > the fact that there was a Death Eater at Hogwarts, eating at the same
> > table with him every day.
>
> That is a brilliant point Nella, totally convincing. I forgot totally
> about the Legilimens part of it. It goes on to fortify my points above
> that DD is (I cant bring myself to say was!) an "all knowing"
> personality in the series. Not too many wizards, that too a Lockhart
> and a Barty Crouch Jr would have been able to block out DD.
Thanks. DD, being a Legilimens, must be able to see through deception
and lies but I don't think we can be sure he is capable of doing that
in every single case - which is why we still can't be positive about
Snape's loyalties. (Incidentally, according to Snape, LV "almost
always" knows when he is being lied to.)
And being "all-knowing" still doesn't mean DD is not capable of errors
in judgment, as he himself has admitted.
> My essential argument is this: Given that LV has the power to
> perpetuate his life by means of the Horcruxes that he had created, DD
> knew that finding and eliminating these is the only way to LVs eventual
> destruction. I do not know at what point DD came to suspect this, but
> from that point (either sometime in PS/CoS or all along from the "first
> war") onwards, DD knew that they were fighting a losing battle unless
> they find the Horcruxes. He knew that many more lives will be lost by
> allowing more incarnations of LV. So finding the Horcruxes was the key.
> He knew that many will have to sacrifice their lives for this cause,
> but also knew that unless they triumphed, their lives wont be worth
> living. So any conclusion to the story that totally ignores these
> points would be farcical.
What I find unsettling is the possibility that as long as everything is
going according to DD's plan, it is acceptable to him that innocent
lives may be lost along the way. If DD indeed knew about fake Moody's
true identity and let him carry on with his plans of delivering Harry
to LV, he is partly responsible for Cedric Diggory's death. Unlike
Sirius, Cedric was only a student, completely unaware of the danger.
And there is that rather ominous confession by DD to Harry: "What did I
care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were
slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive,
and well, and happy?"
trinity
wrote:
>trinity wrote:
They say... no one seems to have known him when he wasn't a bit shall
we say high strung.
trinity
wrote:
I agree with you... the strange thing is that most grown ups seem to
have the same high opinion of DD as the kids.
Maybe they just remember him when he still had some zip on his
fastball.
Richard Eney
Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>On 9 Jan 2007 01:00:59 -0800, "Frodo Baggins" <douf...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>I am not sure if Dumbledore is aware of all the secrets that are a part
>>of Hogwarts, some of it may be hidden even from him
DD said in GoF that there were things he didn't know about Hogwarts.
>> for the founders were perhaps as crafty and powerful as
>> any of the modern day magicians.
>
>Weren't they supposed to be like the best of the best of their time?
>At least for England. And even Dd never learned about the Room of
>Requirement, even after accidentally finding it. In fact, Harry had
>to learn about it from the help.
It seems odd that Dd didn't know about it, but he apparently didn't
even know about most of the tunnels to town, because they weren't
blocked when they were trying to keep Sirius out of the castle.
>>If a few fourth years can come up with something akin to
>>the Marauders Map, I am sure Dumbledore can too.
>
>Some of us believe he has his own, more powerful version that
>Headmasters use to keep track of things. But the Marauder's did
>have some limits, time travelers. People with the same name.
I don't think DD had a map of Hogwarts. I do think he had a spy
system using the ghosts and the portraits and probably some other
methods - crystal ball, magic mirrors, those odd little silver
gadgets in his office that were outwardly like the odd little
silver gadget at the Black house.
>>From the time that Scabbers appeared, Hermione had
>>gotten hold of Crookshanks
No, Scabbers was in the first book. Hermione didn't get Crookshanks
until later, PoA if I recall correctly.
>Did Hermione ever get clearance to keep a half Kneazle in her muggle
>home?
There's no need for her to have a license for Crookshanks; he doesn't
have the distinctive tufted tail that is what attracts attention to
full kneazles.
>>The only point I am not sure of is from what point did Dumbledore
>>suspect the extent of Voldemort's foray into Horcrux magic. If he did
>>so during the "first war", then he must have been at work all the
>>eleven years prior to PS in finding out about Horcruxes.
>
>And he wasn't.
>
>> If it happened only in the second year,
>>after seeing the Diary, then he could not have
>>suspected that Voldy could have been around in the first book,
>
>Yet he still knew Voldie could be back. That he wasn't truly
>destroyed.
Much of the first book was spent testing Harry to see whether he
was possessed by Voldemort. Harry passed the test when Dd saw
Voldemort leave Quirrell's body, not Harry's.
>>but cetainly, from the end of the first year, he would have
>>had protections and detection devices around Hogwarts to prevent
>>unauthorised entry.
>
>And he did. he had lost of protection. But still, they were not
>designed for what he did not know. Unregistered animaguses,
>polyjuiced people.
Tunnels he didn't know about.
=Tamar
Richard Eney
trinity <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote:
> "Deevo"<mcke...@NOSPAMmidwest.com.au> wrote:
>>"trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote
>snip>
>>> Put such powerful enchantments around the stone that 1st year
>>> students were able to break through to the stone.
>>
>>True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
>>only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
>>own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
>
>They were children.
It was a test, planned to be just barely solvable by either a brilliant
student with memories of an adult wizard (Harry if possessed by Voldemort),
or - as it happened - by a group of brilliant students working together.
It was _intended_ for children. The only serious protection was the mirror,
which was another test for Harry, which he passed.
>>> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
>>> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
>>
>>Two points there.
>>1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
>>chose him for the job.
Quirrell was normal when he got the job. He was taken over when he went
off to study for it, but V didn't take up residence in Quirrell's head
until after the attempt at Gringotts Bank - the turban doesn't appear
until school starts. In the book Quirrell can shake Harry's hand at the pub.
>>2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
>>teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
>>difficult to find someone to fill the position.
The job was cursed before the first Voldewar began, in which Harry's
parents fought before he was born. The job was cursed for at least
eighteen to twenty years. It was getting _very_ hard to find DADA
teachers. Hagrid even commented on it. The job description was
essentially "if you're not Snape, you're hired."
>>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
>>
>>He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
>>many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
>
>DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
>easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
DD knew Lockhart's dependence on the Obliviate charm; when he learns
that Lockhart has been hit by his own backfiring spell, he says "Hoist
by your own petard" or words to that effect. He hired Lockhart because
he wanted something else to happen as a result - whether it was just
"anyone but Snape" or "Lockhart is to demonstrate to Harry the pitfalls
of wanting fame", JKR didn't specify yet.
>>> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>>
>>See point 2 about Quirrell. Also, as when he was a student, there was no
>>reason to believe that, without suitable precautions, that it would have
>>been unsafe. It was Pettigrew's presence that prompted his oversight that
>>evening, understandably in that instance.
>
>What exactly are "suitable precautions" - here drink this!
The potion wasn't available when Lupin was a child. It was fairly
new in PoA, and very difficult to make. The suitable precautions
were that Lupin was escorted to his hideyhole by two teachers and
locked in.
The suitable precaution in PoA was the potion. Many people are on
medication of one sort or another nowadays; they have jobs and they
are expected to take their medication. SOme of them fail and become
violent, but the expectation is that the great mass of people who
need it will take their meds. Lupin was the most responsible and
reliable of the marauders, and was an excellent teacher.
>Not to
>mention the fact that he hired a teacher that he knew at the very
>least would be ill for several days each month
Most jobs include an allowance for sick days.
>or at the very worst might forget his wolfsbane potion & go on a
>kill crazy rampage at the school.
See above.
>>> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>>> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
>>
>>And in doing so saved two innocent lives. Certainly a useful disposition
>>of available manpower and resources.
>
>He sent children,,, good job.
They were the only ones available who had access to an invisibility cloak
and a time-turner. There is also, somewhere in the discussions that have
been posted before on this exact topic, some evidence that DD had to know
what the result was, but he just didn't know exactly how it happened, only
that it had happened.
<snip>
>I am not sure that you can have a binding magical contract if one of
>the parties was entered into it without their knowledge or consent.
That's the way JKR wrote it. The spell on the Cup was poorly designed
when it was made all those centuries ago, but that's the way it is.
Most wizards haven't an ounce of logic.
>>> Didn't notice the rampant cheating.
>>
>>Not being an administrator what could he have done about it if he had. Also
>>faux Moody's statement about Dumbledore being as high minded as he pleases
>>not preventing Maxine and Karkaroff from cheating implied that he was at the
>>least aware of it.
>
>Headmaster at the host school & seemed to be the arbitrator of most
>Triwizard issued
But not one of the judges of the event, and therefore not in charge of
how it was run.
>>Once again not being an administrator of the contest how could he be
>>held responsible for the actions within?
>
>He's not a potted plant.. he is supposed to be a great wizard but he
>seems to miss a lot of stuff happening right in front of him.
"Great" does not mean perfect.
>>> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
>>> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
>>> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
>>> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
>>
>>If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
>>Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
>>time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
>
>He couldn't possibly have expected Harry & Snape to work well
>together.. knowing full well that they hated each other's guts.
>His decision actually make the hatred deeper.
DD is above all a teacher. Teachers have to be optimists.
DD teaches by putting people into situations in which they have a
chance to develop by experience. He doesn't just teach Harry.
He was hoping to teach Snape some forbearance, even at that late date,
even as he was hoping to teach Lupin to control his friends, and later
to teach Ron to stand up to his brothers. He gave them the responsible
position, hoping they would grow into it, rather like a parent giving
a child a pet to take care of, hoping the child would learn to be
responsible.
>>> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back he seemed to have
>>> little interest in preparing his students.
>>
>>That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definitely aware of the DA right
>>from its inception and did nothing to prevent its activities despite it
>>being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
>
>It is not unknown... look at the roster of DADA professors over the
>years, it's a wonder the students learned to do anything. Lupin is the
>only one that wasn't almost completely useless.
DD's idea of preparing his students is a problem. He seems to prefer
to let them stumble into things and learn by experience, which is a
common element in the older style of UK schooling as portrayed in books
I've read. Wizard culture seems to allow far more dangerous behavior
because magic can heal most injuries easily. It is also true that
the DADA job has been filled by the talentless for close to twenty
years; at first perhaps there were good ones, but eventually only the
useless would apply (except Snape, and he was weak in some areas -
kappas and Greek myth). It isn't just the current generation that are
ill-prepared. Most of the adult wizards are also hopeless at DADA.
The twins are selling protective gear to the MoM because the entire
staff is incapable of some simple protections. That's going to come
back to haunt them, too.
>>> 6. Half Blood Prince
<snip>
>>Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was explained
>>later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to protect his
>>(Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
>
>& in the process allowed 2 students to be nearly murdered & eventually
>led to the Deatheaters attacking inside the school. All to protect the
>Malfoys? I'm sure if he was able to explain it that way to Mrs.
>Weasley she'd understand completely & forget all about Bill's face.
No doubt that was one of his 'catastrophic mistakes' that he admitted to.
>>> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that the
>>> locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux.
>>
>>That was undetermined as after they had retrieved the locket events
>>prevented any discussion of it.
>
>So you are agreeing DD didn't know.
There wasn't time to test the locket. Also, DD was sneaky; he may have
known that something else was going on in that cave, and we won't know
all about it until book 7.
>>> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>>
>>As far as we were made aware he was able to 'feel' that the place had known
>>magic. There was no more detail than that.
>
>When they first saw the island in the middle of the lake, Harry asked
>DD if the horcrux was there & DD said "yes, I am sure of it" - look
>it up
DD didn't say "I feel it"; one can be "sure" of something without esoteric
or magical sensing.
All these questions have been discussed over and over on this group.
There was even a thread titled "Why I hate Albus Dumbledore".
=Tamar
drusilla
> Nella wrote:
>> trinity wrote:
>>
>>>>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
>>>> He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
>>>> many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
>>> DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
>>> easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
>> It's pretty interesting that in OoP, DD says to Harry that he is "a
>> sufficiently accomplished Legilimens" to know when he is being lied to.
>> If he's not exaggerating, he must have known Lockhart was a fraud.
Perhaps Lockhart was an Occlumens too :)
If, when you lie, you are so convinced what you say/think it is the
truth, can a Legimens notice it?
>> He might have had to hire Lockhart since he was the only candidate for
>> the job, but there's still the case of fake Moody. If DD is as
>> accomplished a wizard as he's supposed to be, how could he have missed
>> the fact that there was a Death Eater at Hogwarts, eating at the same
>> table with him every day.
>
> That is a brilliant point Nella, totally convincing. I forgot totally
> about the Legilimens part of it. It goes on to fortify my points above
> that DD is (I cant bring myself to say was!) an "all knowing"
> personality in the series. Not too many wizards, that too a Lockhart
> and a Barty Crouch Jr would have been able to block out DD.
But the difference between DD and LV is that he doesn't go around
checking if people is lying or not. Not even DD could have imagined that
Moody was fake, because he could not know that Barty was alive, in fact,
he thought him to be dead. And Barty's presence was indeed important to
the realising of this. About Lockhart, he had his books as references
and many wizards who could back up the story of him being like a superhero.
I suppose that, while he had some power on Harry, being his Headmaster,
hence, authority (and somehow mentor) he could take the liberty of
checking his mind, very much like Snape when he recognised his own book.
But he can't just Legimens people without his permission. If Lockhart
had been Occlumens, he had noticed the intrusion and get offended.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Toon
wrote:
>trinity wrote:
But they say sounds rumors (ignoring what we learn after the fact).
Toon
How the eternal hotspot did he miss Voldemort at Hogwarts? The sudden
change in Quirrell's personality should have been a giant Dark Mark
over Hogwarts.
Toon
wrote:
>>>From the time that Scabbers appeared, Hermione had
>>>gotten hold of Crookshanks
>
>No, Scabbers was in the first book. Hermione didn't get Crookshanks
>until later, PoA if I recall correctly.
Scabbers been around since Percy. So, that'd be 7 years, with
Crookshanks in the final year.
Toon
> If DD indeed knew about fake Moody's
>true identity and let him carry on with his plans of delivering Harry
>to LV, he is partly responsible for Cedric Diggory's death. Unlike
>Sirius, Cedric was only a student, completely unaware of the danger.
Or, he thought he knew Harry enough to go for the win.
>And there is that rather ominous confession by DD to Harry: "What did I
>care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were
>slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive,
>and well, and happy?"
He's a big picture guy. We're talking sacrificng people he doesn't
even know he never, to ensure their only hope survives to win. The
consequence of failure: An infinite number of lives lsot, including
those he msot certianly knows and loves. It's a very sick version of
one lfie for many. Who he sacrifices now can only serve to help all
of humanity.
It's like this. Think of everybody who died in the various Al-Queda
attacks,a nd the war resutling thereof. Thousands of them. Now,
let's pretend Bush is right (stop laughing), and saving Iraq is the
key to saving the world. Iraq's a peaceful democracy, the Middle East
quickly falls into place. By 2010, world peace is acheived. Wouldn't
all those lost lives suddenly be worth it, cosndiering the millons who
would die in a resulting World War 3? But now they'll be no WWIII.
Now we have everlasting peace. No racism, bigotry, prejudice, none of
that crud. All thsoe nameless,f aceless people who died in Bush's
War, in Al-Queda's atatcks, becoem validated and justified. Noble
martyrs who brought us peace in the end. Worth it, isn't it?
Toon
wrote:
>Come on. Knowing about Dark arts is one thing. USING it is another, I
>am sure DD will go any lengths to avoid using it, but if required, he
>will not be foolish enough to stop himself from knowing about it. If
>one takes a blinkers on approach you suggest, not knowing what Dark
>magic LV is capable of, LV can never be conquered. Knowing about
>Horcruxes is absolutely necessary to overcome them. OK, from the point
>that LV is was not completely dead, DD has come to the conclusion that
>LV has used some dark magic. He perhaps went about finding out as much
>information from LV's former teachers as he could. Question is when
>did Slughorn give the Horcrux information to DD? No question that DD
>suspected that Horcruxes magic was used. When? After first year?
After second year, when he learned about the diary.
>This is certainly not correct. DD knows that he is perhaps the only
>Wizard in the world able to defeat LV in a face to face battle if it
>comes to that.
But he's not. Harry is. He knows this. Notice how during both wars,
V is schooling them big time. They all but lost the first war. If
not for Harry, V'd be ruling them all now. And event he muggles are
starting to notice something strange going on this time round.
>has cetainly kept lot of information from people around him. For eg:
>for a person who works on his own and kept all that information from
>others around him, would DD have been foolish enough to get into a
>situation that he will be easily overcome? Why didnt DD block the
>"Expel..." curse first and THEN freeze Harry? No, I dont think all this
>adds up.
He needed Harry to remain hidden, and he didn't block Draco's attack
because Draco wouldn't listen to an armed DD. But an unarmed DD is no
threat, and so he'll listen, always knowing DD can't be tricking him.
What doesn't add up is DD believe sins elf sacrifice, and most of us
don't. We can't even begin to fathom deliberately killing ourselves
for the greater good, even if we have left too much undone, unknown,
and unlearned.
>These are not secrets of personal nature. I am talking of the
>information that DD has gleaned which will help in defeating LV.
Information any DE can get by Legils. So far, only DD, Snape,
Bellatrix, Draco, and V can Occuls. Harry knows the principles, but
won't allow himself to master it in practice. Everybody else is a
liability. If DD has any secret info, he's already left it for Harry
to receive.
>Yes. As I mentioned before, DD does not know everything about the
>school. Many things may be hidden from even him.
>
>> Andreas
That is the whole point. DD is not all knowing, not infallible, no
matter what Harry perceives him to be. if Dd is revealed to have been
all knowing, it'll ruin the story.
Toon
>I agree with you... the strange thing is that most grown ups seem to
>have the same high opinion of DD as the kids.
People trust what they're shown, forgetting this is Harry's point of
view. If he's wrong, than everybody copying him is too. DD becomes
Harry's father figure. Whom he sees as all knowing and infallible.
Only as time goes by (a bit accelerated than normally), does he begin
to see the chinks in the armor he gave DD.
Toon
wrote:
>DD knew Lockhart's dependence on the Obliviate charm; when he learns
>that Lockhart has been hit by his own backfiring spell, he says "Hoist
>by your own petard" or words to that effect. He hired Lockhart because
>he wanted something else to happen as a result - whether it was just
>"anyone but Snape" or "Lockhart is to demonstrate to Harry the pitfalls
>of wanting fame", JKR didn't specify yet.
Or eliminate Mr. Mindwipe.
gjw
I don't mean to throw a wet blanket over the "criticize Dumbledore"
party, but, to be fair, we have to consider artistic license.
Rowling, after all, has to write a book about the adventures of a
child hero. For a child to have adventures, normally protective
adults have to either be absent (which is why she killed off Harry's
entire family), or else behave in ways which allow the child hero to
get himself into very dangerous situations. We are meant to believe
that Dumbledore is a very wise man, almost omniscient at times, but
the simple need for drama forces Rowling to prevent Dumbledore from
acting as such whenever doing so would interfere with Harry's
death-defying adventures. If, for instance, Dumbledore had seen
through Quirrel's disguise, he would have exposed him during that very
first meal in the Great Hall, and there would have been no
Philosopher's Stone adventure. Likewise, if Dumbledore had found out
about the diary and confiscated it, there would have been no Chamber
of Secrets. And so, Dumbledore is conveniently missing in action when
such situations arise. Rowling does not intend for this to reflect on
Dumbledore's character - they are simply practical steps to move the
plot along...
Deevo
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 21:17:53 +0900, "Deevo"
> <mcke...@NOSPAMmidwest.com.au> wrote:
>
>>"trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote in message
>>news:mtn5q2tl12e2k7vpv...@4ax.com...
>>> Please consider the following:
>>
>>making
>>a serious commentary here and not stirring up shit for the sake of it
>>(probably more likely) and look at your points and their various merits.
>>
>>> 1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
>>> his parents & begrudged him.
>>
>>As he explained to them at the beginning of HBP he anticipated that, being
>>family, they would raise and treat Harry as one of their own. This
>>obviously didn't take place. However the fact that they granted him
>>houseroom did preserve his life in those early years, as was Dumbledore's
>>intent.
>
> What he anticipated didn't occur. So, he was wrong.
And just how does being wrong make him stupid?
>>> Put such powerful enchantments around the stone that 1st year
>>> students were able to break through to the stone.
>>
>>True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
>>only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
>>own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
>
> They were children.
Did you read what I said? Particularly the first word?
Still as a point of fact he didn't put powerful enchantments around the
stone, he hid the stone in a place where only someone who didn't want to use
it could find it. His staff placed the powerful enchandments around his,
barriers that they were by virtue of their own specialised skills able to
surmount.
>>> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
>>> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
>>
>>Two points there.
>>1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
>>chose him for the job.
>>2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
>>teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
>>difficult to find someone to fill the position.
>>
> No, but what are the odds that DD hires a guy who goes traipsing off
> to Albania & runs into Voldemort. Plus he was an easily frightened
> stuttering coward. Not exactly what you would want to teach DADA.
Seeing as the time that he hired Quirrell is not specified it's impossable
to determine this, still given that he, like his recent predecessors, would
have only held the position in that year it would be fair to presume that he
was hired sometime after the end of the previous term. It is also mentioned
specifically that he travelled abroad to gain experience presumably for the
job so it would also be fair to presume he did so after being granted it.
It's clearly stated that he was a very different individual before this.
This would have placed him, at the time of his being considered for the job,
as a young man who was keen for the employment and was about to travel
abroad to gain useful experience for the role. While I'm not the headmaster
of a school he sounds like a very suitable candidate, even moreso than usual
given the increasing lack of available ones for the position.
>>> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
>>> that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
>>> harm to Harry).
>>
>>As they can do in Hogwarts itself.
>
> What is your point?
My point is that house elves are stated in the book to be powerfully magical
creatures in their own right so how would he have stopped him.
>>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
>>
>>He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
>>many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
>
> DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
> easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
What if he didn't? Despite his penchant for theatrics he may have proven to
be a useful teacher. After all at the time he was hired there was no
indication of the upcoming problems.
>>Also see point 2 about Quirrell.
>>> Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking students &
>>> was powerless to stop it.
>>
>>Till the actions of Ginny under the influence of the diary released it the
>>monster was believed to be a legend. As for Dumbledore and his ability to
>>stop this it was made clear that the onle ones with that ability were
>>those
>>who could also access the chamber itself. At that point only Harry and
>>Ginny
>>(under posession by Tom) could do so.
>
> No, DD knew it was true, the students were told it was a legend. DD
> was the Transfiguration Professor when Myrtle was killed 50 years ago.
> Dumbledore never even figured out where the chamber entrance was or
> that it was a basilisk & he had 50 years to work on it.
Be that as it may only a parseltoungue (or it seems someone posessed by one)
can access the Chamber. As Dumbledore was neither how would he have done
so?
>>> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>>
>>See point 2 about Quirrell. Also, as when he was a student, there was no
>>reason to believe that, without suitable precautions, that it would have
>>been unsafe. It was Pettigrew's presence that prompted his oversight that
>>evening, understandably in that instance.
>
> What exactly are "suitable precautions" - here drink this! Not to
> mention the fact that he hired a teacher that he knew at the very
> least would be ill for several days each month or at the very worst
> might forget his wolfsbane potion & go on a kill crazy rampage at the
> school.
Again it came down to a matter of choice and trust. With the sole exception
of that final night which had circumstances that were pretty damn
mittigating the said 'suitable precautions' were just that.
>>> Found out that 3 students had taught themselves to be animagi and
>>> roamed the countryside once a month right under DD's nose.
>>
>>After the fact and ultimately quite irrelevant.
>
> Exactly my point! AFTER the fact...Relevant to DD's formidable powers
> of observation
You speak as though he were omniscient, as has been said repeatedly in the
books, mostly by Dumbledore himself, he is not. So again your statement is
irrelevant as the event concerned is past history.
>>> An alleged escaped killer was able to get into Hogwarts more than
>>> once and was actually living on the grounds.
>>
>>Nobody, barring Lupin and the presumably deceased Pettigrew, would have
>>been
>>aware of Sirius' ability. Why would have Dumbledore?
>
> You are making my points for me.
What point? That Dumbledore wasn't omniscient? Like I said before it's a
moot point anyway.
>>> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
>>> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
>>
>>And in doing so saved two innocent lives. Certainly a useful disposition
>>of
>>available manpower and resources.
>
> He sent children,,, good job.
He sent the only two people available to him with the equipment (Hermione's
time turner) and the motivation required to do what was needed. Using
available personall to achieve what was neccesary. It isn't the first time.
Anyway, as we've seen from book one, Dumbledore isn't one to wrap his
students up in cotton wool and hide them from the real world and it's
dangers, he's quite prepared to allow them to learn from their own mistakes
and take their own risks if they're prepared to do so.
>>> 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA. Crouch was able to fool
>>> him for the entire year using polyjuice potion.
>>
>>And everyone else.
>
> DD is not supposed to be like everyone else.... The greatest wizard in
> the world remember?
Yes he is, but not omniscient. He doesn't know everything and I am
beginning to wonder why you expect him to.
>>> Did not protest Harry being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even
>>> though it was apparent that his name was entered fraudulently by
>>> persons unknown with unknown intentions.
>>
>>Was forced unwillingly, as was Harry, to abide by a 'binding magical
>>contract'.
>
> I am not sure that you can have a binding magical contract if one of
> the parties was entered into it without their knowledge or consent.
I don't know, I'm not a magical lawyer. Still the official administrator,
Barty Crouch Sr, did state the rules were absolute.
>>> Didn't notice the rampant cheating.
>>
>>Not being an administrator what could he have done about it if he had.
>>Also
>>faux Moody's statement about Dumbledore being as high minded as he pleases
>>not preventing Maxine and Karkaroff from cheating implied that he was at
>>the
>>least aware of it.
>
> Headmaster at the host school & seemed to be the arbitrator of most
> Triwizard issued
But not the administrator. Not only is he not omniscient as I've already
said he's also not all powerful. There are things he can't do.
>>> or the fact that Moody (Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help
>>> Harry win. The phony teacher was able to turn the trophy into
>>> a portkey transport 2 students off school grounds resulting in
>>> the death of one student & enabling the return of Voldemort.
>>
>>Once again not being an administrator of the contest how could he be held
>>responsable for the actions within?
>
> He's not a potted plant.. he is supposed to be a great wizard but he
> seems to miss a lot of stuff happening right in front of him.
Does he? We don't know that for certain. All we know is that he didn't
always act and as far as that is concerned we don't know if he didn't
because of unwillingness, inability or a lack of knowledge. Again you seem
to have a unrealistically inflated view of him, why?
>>> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
>>> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
>>> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
>>> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
>>
>>If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
>>Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
>>time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
>
> He couldn't possibly have expected Harry & Snape to work well
> together.. knowing full well that they hated each other's guts.
He expected Severus, as an adult and a capable teacher, to put aside his
animosity for James and teach Harry. He was mistaken about that and even
admitted so.
> His decision actually make the hatred deeper.
Not at all, Harry's spying on Snape's memory made the hatred deeper and
quite frankly if I found someone I disliked snooping around parts of my past
that I didn't want him to know about I'd be more than a bit cranky myself.
>>> Allowed Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to
>>> stop her.
>>
>>First off that is an utterly false statement. He didn't allow her to
>>come,
>>she was placed there by the ministry. As for stopping her, stopping her
>>doing what? Prior to Dumbledore's departure she was little more than a
>>nasty piece of work. It was after that when she assumed the mantle of
>>head
>>that she became truly dangerous.
>
> Actually it is utterly accurate.He allowed her to come by failing to
> hire a DADA teacher. As the headmaster he has a responsibility to the
> students not to allow "nasty pieces of work" free reign. She was
> evaluating teachers, outlawing group meetings, physically abusing
> students & firing Trewlawny before DD was removed from office.
Firstly he was unable to find an applicant for the job because there were
none, something the ministry took advantage of by placing Umbridge there.
Decades of problems in retaining staff in the position had finally whittled
down the available candidates to none.
As for the headmaster's responsibility, again we see that Dumbledore's power
has limits, especially when dealing with government. As for Umbridge being
a 'nasty piece of work' there's no denying that but it would be fair to say
that few people got to see it first hand. On the one occasion that
Dumbledore was present when Umbridge manhandled a student, Marietta, he
reacted instantly and decisively forcing her to back down.
>>> His apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach
>>> DADA himself since no one else was.
>>
>>Not so, the ministry's appointment of a useless teacher to the DADA
>>position
>>led Hermione to suggest to Harry that he teach them practical DADA. Both
>>to
>>succeed in their studies and to be prepared now Voldemort was back.
>
> Sigh,, fish in a barrel. Lack of interest in a useless teacher.
> Led Harry to try to teach Defense Against Dark Arts. I didn't want to
> bore everyone with a synopsis of what led to Harry's decision. But
> again, as the Headmaster & worlds greatest wizard doesn't DD bear a
> little responsibility in this area?
Again it went to show that Dumbledores powers had limits. And despite this
he acted again decisively and quickly in sacrificing himself to protect the
students.
>>> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back he seemed to have
>>> little interest in preparing his students.
>>
>>That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definately aware of the DA
>>right
>>from it's inception and did nothing to prevent it's activities despite it
>>being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
>
> It is not unknown... look at the roster of DADA professors over the
> years, it's a wonder the students learned to do anything. Lupin is the
> only one that wasn't almost completely useless.
That's true enough but in what way would that indicate a disinterest in
preparing his students.
>>> His seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
>>> thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
>>> help Sirius.
>>
>>Not at all, by this point Dumbledore was gone from the school and well out
>>of the picture from Harry's point of view. It was Voldemort's trickery
>>that
>>led Harry to the ministry and his own mistrust in Snape that prevented him
>>from seeking external assistance in doing so.
>
> Exactly.. gone from the school, well out of the picture... in other
> words DD was not very helpful at that point.
So first you expect him to be all knowing, next you expect him to be all
powerful and now you appear to expect him to be everywhere at once? Is this
the headmaster of a school or god you're describing?
>>> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
>>> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
>>> Riddle - This is your life.
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>> Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was planning something
>>> terrible.
>>
>>Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was
>>explained
>>later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to protect his
>>(Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
>
> & in the process allowed 2 students to be nearly murdered & eventually
> led to the Deatheaters attacking inside the school. All to protect the
> Malfoys? I'm sure if he was able to explain it that way to Mrs.
> Weasley she'd understand completely & forget all about Bill's face.
So let me get this straight, you believe he was wrong for not sacrificing
Malfoy when he discovered his mission to kill him? Because if he had
Voldemort would have almost certainly killed him, Narcissa and probably
Lucius. Not that they are exactly the Brady bunch but the only one that we
know is close to truly evil is Lucius and he seems more driven by greed than
a desire to hurt.
He faced an unknown risk from someone who was unlikely to do a great deal of
damage, despite the clumsiness of his increasingly desperate efforts and the
effect of those unfortunates caught in the crossfire. Had he not done so
the deaths that would have resulted would have been far more certain.
>>> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that the
>>> locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux.
>>
>>That was undetermined as after they had retrieved the locket events
>>prevented any discussion of it.
>
> So you are agreeing DD didn't know.
No, I'm saying that he never had a chance to tell Harry (and the readers) if
he knew it or not.
>>> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
>>
>>As far as we were made aware he was able to 'feel' that the place had
>>known
>>magic. There was no more detail than that.
>>
> When they first saw the island in the middle of the lake, Harry asked
> DD if the horcrux was there & DD said "yes, I am sure of it" - look
> it up
Now you're getting condecending, that's really not necessary unless you're
trying to provoke a confrontation, if that's the case then I really can't be
bothered so don't waste your time.
Anyway look at the scene. They're on the edge of the subterranian lake with
the object they're seeking not obviously nearby. There's an island in the
middle of the lake and it's glowing. It's a pretty obvious place to look.
>>> Let a 15 yr old disarm him
>>
>>Because he had acted to protect Harry first by immobilising him,
>>preventing
>>his own defence.
>
> And Harry's ability to defend himself if he was discovered - good plan
As opposed to allowing the notoriously impulsive and headstrong Harry to
wade into an attack of unknown forces. Just because it was only Malfoy who
came up the stairs didn't mean that Dumbledore would have known that.
<snip>
>>I can't help you, if you're determined to see the books in such a negative
>>light or even if you're just trolling along for a response then anything
>>that I would write here would be a wasted excercise.
>
> I am not trolling...
I hope not.
> I am discussing the books, the characters & plot devices, books
> which I have read several times and enjoy very much.
> You wrote an awful lot for a wasted exercise... I will agree with you
> however, it was a bit of a waste as you were unable to answer my
> question.
Again I can't help you. It would appear from reading what you have posted
here that you have almost ludicrously unrealistic expectations of
Dumbledores character that are way out of proportion to what he has done and
has been said to have done in the book. Given what we've seen and read of
him the lable "The greatest" seems to be an appropriate one though there are
aspects of his past such as Grindlewald that have yet to be exposed. Still
I can't understand how you can equate the greatest to someone so completely
omniscient and omnipotent as to be beyond any possibility of being protrayed
as a realistic character (even in as fantastic a setting as in these books).
I recall the collective meltdown of many of Hermione's fans when, in HBP,
she was underplayed and shown not to be the infallible 'superwitch' that
somne fans had unrealistically built her up to be. A friend of mine called
it 'Pink Ranger Hermione'. Still to me that's the best aspect of these
books, the fact that the characters are realistically fallible and for that
all the more believable.
Anyway, think what you like, I'm not here to force my opinions and views on
anyone, you may read or not depending on what takes your fancy. I've said
my piece and that's all there is to it, if you don't like it then that's
fine too, I can live with that.
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm
Toon
wrote:
>This scenario has its flaws too. but to be legally binded to a contract
>you never signed, bothers me.
I never bought that. You don't sign, you can't be blinded. I mean,
anyone can force anyone else to do anything at all with a forged
magical contract.
But if DD planned to make the guilty party out, it'd make sense. if
he pulled Harry out, the attacker might get more aggressive, or give
up and try something less subtle.
Toon
wrote:
>IIRC did not Sirius himself believe Peter to be dead. blew himself and
>a city block up when sirius chased him down after the Potter's death.
>then sirius being captured by the MOM and laughing hysterically (trying
>to recall without the book). Would it not have been Dumbledore who told
>the MOM that Sirius was the secret keeper (thusly did not know Peter
>was)? If i am remembering POA correctly. (My favorite book, the writng,
>the backstories, the marauders then and now, dementors, divination,
>excellent. The movie also had a great lupin and raggy Sirius scene in
>the shack.)
Siirus only knew Peter was alive when eh saw his rat form with the
Weasleys. DD did testify Sirius was the secret keeper, because only 4
people knew of the switch. And nobody 'd believe Sirius at this point
that Peter switched with him. Nor would he speak up. he blame
himself for getting the Potters to sue Peter. This was his punishment
for stupidly missing the obvious and inadvertently setting them up. I
doubt DD would have gotten much from him at this point.
We also don't know Azkaban rules. Maybe Sirius was too high priority
for visitors. And being DD isn't a guaranteed all access pass.
>now if only they had actual Snakes...on the Howgwarts train. we are
>talking film history...maybe not.
Help. Snakes. Someone call Mace Windu.
Markku Uttula
> I find it quite incredible that he was not shown to have
> visited someone like Sirius Black, for Sirius was a part of the Order,
> during the period of his incarceration or later. He would also surely
> have been present at the prisoner debriefing.
I don't know what a "prisoner debriefing" is, but IIRC, Sirius was sent
to Azkaban without trial. If that is what you mean. No hearing.
> Sirius would have told
> him that Peter Pettigrew was alive and Dumbledore was surely armed
> with that information ever since. Sirius would have also told him
> that Peter was an animagi. It is quite inconveivable that Dumbledore
> neither knew that Peter was alive or that he was at Hogwarts in the
> form of a rat.
Sirius only recognized Peter after having seen him in a photograph taken
for the Daily Prophet while the Weasley's were in Egypt (since they won
some money in MoM lottery or something). Before that (I don't think this
is actually said, but can be understood between the lines) Sirius was
under the impression that Peter had actually blown himself up and was
indeed rather dead. For these reasons it would've meant anyhing if
Sirius told about Peter; it would just have been his word against...
nothing :)
Also, Sirius was feeling guilty on suggesting the change of secret
keeper to the Potters. This is why he felt as he had caused their deaths
himself, and was not fighting for his freedom. He really thought that he
himself was to blame for the things that happened and had really really
really deserved his (unsentenced) time inside the walls of Azkaban.
Perhaps he was not too willing to speak to Dumbeldore even had DD
visited him. Only occasion we have heard of him in Azkaban (during
Fudge's inspection) was that he looked "merely bored".
--
Markku Uttula
Sirius Kase
Richard Eney wrote:
> In article <s2m8q217j0pjdi00c...@4ax.com>,
> trinity <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote:
> > "Deevo"<mcke...@NOSPAMmidwest.com.au> wrote:
> >>"trinity" <th@'sallfolks.com> wrote
> >>> Please consider the following:
> >snip>
>
> >>> Put such powerful enchantments around the stone that 1st year
> >>> students were able to break through to the stone.
> >>
> >>True, though it would be fair to say that these students in particular not
> >>only had external assistance but were each exceptionally skilled in their
> >>own areas beyond what would normally be expected of first years.
> >
> >They were children.
>
> It was a test, planned to be just barely solvable by either a brilliant
> student with memories of an adult wizard (Harry if possessed by Voldemort),
> or - as it happened - by a group of brilliant students working together.
> It was _intended_ for children. The only serious protection was the mirror,
> which was another test for Harry, which he passed.
It was also a dark wizard trap. Dumbledore announced at the opening
feast that no one should mess around in the 3rd floor corridor. If he
was truly trying to protect the stone, he would have hidden it away
somewhere without saying a word about it. As it was, everyone curious
and disobedient enough might have been after it. Harry and Quirrell
may not have been the only ones to attempt it, but they were the only
ones to succeed in getting to the mirror. How else would everyone,
Fred and George, in particular, know about the various challenges? Of
course, it would attract a lot of kids who were simply curious and
disobedient, not necessarily dark, that where the mirror comes into
play since it could discern the true motives of the wizard. So, using
this test, Dumbledore could learn a lot about his students and even his
staff. You suppose Dumbledore has asked Snape to stand in front of the
mirror and describe what he saw?
>
> >>> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
> >>> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
> >>
> >>Two points there.
> >>1. It was unlikely that Voldemort was present in Quirrell when Dumbledore
> >>chose him for the job.
>
> Quirrell was normal when he got the job. He was taken over when he went
> off to study for it, but V didn't take up residence in Quirrell's head
> until after the attempt at Gringotts Bank - the turban doesn't appear
> until school starts. In the book Quirrell can shake Harry's hand at the pub.
>
> >>2. For several years prior the school had been unable to retain a DADA
> >>teacher for more than a year. By that point it must have been getting
> >>difficult to find someone to fill the position.
>
> The job was cursed before the first Voldewar began, in which Harry's
> parents fought before he was born. The job was cursed for at least
> eighteen to twenty years. It was getting _very_ hard to find DADA
> teachers. Hagrid even commented on it. The job description was
> essentially "if you're not Snape, you're hired."
At least 20 years have gone since the school has had a decent DADA
teacher. The only way to learn anything about the dark arts is to be
an auror or to be a death eater.. It's hard to get hired on as an
auror, so recruitment of death eaters must have been a snap while
Voldemort was active. I can see how talented wizards with shady
backgrounds (Regulus, Snape) might have signed up thinking that they
could get out or switch sides eventually.
>
> >>> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
> >>
> >>He was known to be vain and somewhat pompous but it was unlikely that too
> >>many suspected he was a fraud of the magnitude that he turned out to be.
> >
> >DD is supposed to be a cut above the ordinary wizard. If he is that
> >easily duped I wonder what else he missed.
>
> DD knew Lockhart's dependence on the Obliviate charm; when he learns
> that Lockhart has been hit by his own backfiring spell, he says "Hoist
> by your own petard" or words to that effect. He hired Lockhart because
> he wanted something else to happen as a result - whether it was just
> "anyone but Snape" or "Lockhart is to demonstrate to Harry the pitfalls
> of wanting fame", JKR didn't specify yet.
Could be either, or it could be that he was pressured into it by the
board, the Mom, parents, or Lockhart's publicist. After all, Molly
likes his books and she's not alone, they are bestsellers. Apparently,
he writes well.
Dumbledore was one of the designated witnesses for the execution. He
was with the group that discovered that Buckbeak was missing. This was
when the executioner attacked a pumpkin which the kids mistakenly
thought was Buckbeak. So Dumbledore knew the outcome. It's even
possible that he saw the kids through the window, in whick case he knew
the who.
>
> >I am not sure that you can have a binding magical contract if one of
> >the parties was entered into it without their knowledge or consent.
>
> That's the way JKR wrote it. The spell on the Cup was poorly designed
> when it was made all those centuries ago, but that's the way it is.
> Most wizards haven't an ounce of logic.
>
> >>> Didn't notice the rampant cheating.
> >>
> >>Not being an administrator what could he have done about it if he had. Also
> >>faux Moody's statement about Dumbledore being as high minded as he pleases
> >>not preventing Maxine and Karkaroff from cheating implied that he was at the
> >>least aware of it.
> >
> >Headmaster at the host school & seemed to be the arbitrator of most
> >Triwizard issued
>
> But not one of the judges of the event, and therefore not in charge of
> how it was run.
Seeing that the first cheat was getting an extra Hogwarts champion into
the tournment, it could be said that Hogwarts started it and Dumbledore
IS the headmaster of Hogwarts. The other headmasters probably felt
justified.
>
> >>Once again not being an administrator of the contest how could he be
> >>held responsible for the actions within?
> >
> >He's not a potted plant.. he is supposed to be a great wizard but he
> >seems to miss a lot of stuff happening right in front of him.
he's wise enough to pick his battles. He's got other problems to deal
with. Too bad he delegated the task of "keeping an eye" on Harry to
the wrong man.
>
> "Great" does not mean perfect.
Yeah, maybe he's just an idiot.
>
> >>> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
> >>> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
> >>> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
> >>> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
> >>
> >>If there was a book that showed Dumbledore to be fallable this was it.
> >>Still the errors of judgement were understandable to a point and, at that
> >>time, he had no reason not to expect Snape to carry out his request.
> >
> >He couldn't possibly have expected Harry & Snape to work well
> >together.. knowing full well that they hated each other's guts.
> >His decision actually make the hatred deeper.
He probably though that spending some time together would cause them to
reconcile their differences somehow. At least, Snape was put in a
position where he could learn a little more about Harry.
Unfortunately, Snape only learned that Harry can be even ruder in
private than in the classroom.
>
> DD is above all a teacher. Teachers have to be optimists.
> DD teaches by putting people into situations in which they have a
> chance to develop by experience. He doesn't just teach Harry.
> He was hoping to teach Snape some forbearance, even at that late date,
> even as he was hoping to teach Lupin to control his friends, and later
> to teach Ron to stand up to his brothers. He gave them the responsible
> position, hoping they would grow into it, rather like a parent giving
> a child a pet to take care of, hoping the child would learn to be
> responsible.
>
> >>> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back he seemed to have
> >>> little interest in preparing his students.
> >>
> >>That is unknown but unlikely. He was very definitely aware of the DA right
> >>from its inception and did nothing to prevent its activities despite it
> >>being almost immediately deemed an illegal organisation.
> >
> >It is not unknown... look at the roster of DADA professors over the
> >years, it's a wonder the students learned to do anything. Lupin is the
> >only one that wasn't almost completely useless.
This has been discussed above. After more than 20 years of having to
hire a new DADA teacher every year, they have been scraping the bottom
of the barrel for quite a while.
>
> DD's idea of preparing his students is a problem. He seems to prefer
> to let them stumble into things and learn by experience, which is a
> common element in the older style of UK schooling as portrayed in books
> I've read. Wizard culture seems to allow far more dangerous behavior
> because magic can heal most injuries easily.
It is a great way to learn provided the student isn't permenently
damaged. It is well known that students learn more from discovery than
from lectures, but it is a very difficult way to educate large numbers
of students safely with large numbers of students per teacher as is the
norm in countries where compulsary education puts so many students in
large government run schools.
> It is also true that
> the DADA job has been filled by the talentless for close to twenty
> years; at first perhaps there were good ones, but eventually only the
> useless would apply (except Snape, and he was weak in some areas -
> kappas and Greek myth). It isn't just the current generation that are
> ill-prepared. Most of the adult wizards are also hopeless at DADA.
> The twins are selling protective gear to the MoM because the entire
> staff is incapable of some simple protections. That's going to come
> back to haunt them, too.
Yeah, more parallels. A couple of generations ago, ROTC or other
military training was a requirement at many American universities.
Now, most Universites have watered down PT/PE so that the physically
inept can stay that way. It used to be, top schools wouldn't admit the
fat, but that wasn't fair, so now we have an epidemic of fat young
people. <old fogey>when I was young, you never saw a fat teenager,
ever, and I mean it. We had one fat boy in my elementary school and he
was so shamed that he skinnied up by the time we moved on. Even stocky
kids had a rough going in Junior High, a fat kid would have rather died
than put up with it.</old fogey>
>
> >>> 6. Half Blood Prince
> <snip>
> >>Was actually well aware that Malfoy was up to something but as was explained
> >>later didn't want to be seen to act on it in an effort to protect his
> >>(Malfoy's) and his family's lives.
> >
> >& in the process allowed 2 students to be nearly murdered & eventually
> >led to the Deatheaters attacking inside the school. All to protect the
> >Malfoys? I'm sure if he was able to explain it that way to Mrs.
> >Weasley she'd understand completely & forget all about Bill's face.
>
> No doubt that was one of his 'catastrophic mistakes' that he admitted to.
Maybe we will soon learn why Draco's life is valued almost as much as
Harry's. He seems to think that he would be the favored student if it
wasn't for Harry. He might be right.
>
> >>> Took Harry with him into the sea cave but never noticed that the
> >>> locket they were looking for was not the Horcrux.
> >>
> >>That was undetermined as after they had retrieved the locket events
> >>prevented any discussion of it.
> >
> >So you are agreeing DD didn't know.
>
> There wasn't time to test the locket. Also, DD was sneaky; he may have
> known that something else was going on in that cave, and we won't know
> all about it until book 7.
I do hope that DD has left a nice collection of memory bottles in his
office. Harry has never been required to testify or give a deposition
about any of his adventures. Usually, he only tells Dumbledore the
details. Hopefully, those memories have been preserved.
>
> >>> I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
> >>
> >>As far as we were made aware he was able to 'feel' that the place had known
> >>magic. There was no more detail than that.
> >
> >When they first saw the island in the middle of the lake, Harry asked
> >DD if the horcrux was there & DD said "yes, I am sure of it" - look
> >it up
>
> DD didn't say "I feel it"; one can be "sure" of something without esoteric
> or magical sensing.
>
> All these questions have been discussed over and over on this group.
> There was even a thread titled "Why I hate Albus Dumbledore".
Dumbledore and Snapee are the two most difficult to understand
characters. In fact, I understand neither of them. My good cop/bad
cop theory is the best I've come up with, but even so, Jo needs to come
up with something really good to explain both of these guys.
>
> =Tamar
Les
Nella wrote:
> trinity wrote:
(stuff deleted)
> It's pretty interesting that in OoP, DD says to Harry that he is "a
> sufficiently accomplished Legilimens" to know when he is being lied to.
> If he's not exaggerating, he must have known Lockhart was a fraud.
1) Lockhart may be accomplished enough in Occlumancy to shield any such
queries.
2) Dumbledore may have suspected Lockhart of being a fraud, (possible
without being a Legimens), but did not bother to invasively pry into
his mind for a job that was probably not flooded with applicants in the
first place.
> He might have had to hire Lockhart since he was the only candidate for
> the job, but there's still the case of fake Moody. If DD is as
> accomplished a wizard as he's supposed to be, how could he have missed
> the fact that there was a Death Eater at Hogwarts, eating at the same
> table with him every day.
Moody is paranoid, and probably practices Occlumancy as second nature.
Consequently, assuming Crouch used Occlumancy (he was powerful enough
to get Harry into the Tournament), Dumbledore would not be able to
detect any real difference, even if he tried mind-reading.
Here in Minnesota
DD may not be an idiot... "the big picture" and judging individual results.
1. The Big Picture.
I don't agree with some aspects of the following fable but it will
illustrate the point.
_________________
There's a fable about a prophet or monk who travels with a young apprentice.
The first house they stay at, the owners treats them badly. They are told to
sleep in the shed and are given the pigs leftovers to eat. In the morning
the monk thanks them and offers to fix his fence. The next night their host
treats them well, a warm bed and a good meal. That night the owners only cow
died.
When they continued their journey the apprentice told the monk how unfair it
was... the bad host got rewarded with a fixed fence and the good host only
cow died.... how unfair.
The monk replied, everything is not as they seem... if the bad host would
have fixed his own fence he would have found a treasure buried there... and
on the night we stayed at the good host I saw the angel of death who came to
take away their son. I begged him to take the cow instead.
________________
Anyway the story is to illustrate that ever isn't always as it seems. If we
could see the big picture we would judge thing differently. Dumbledore has
always reminded me as a big picture person.
2. Judging Individual Results
_________________
I will use Texas Holdem a card game to illustrate this point. [sorry if you
don't know this game]
I'm a pretty good Holdem player. I know the odds, I don't fall into many of
the common traps and mistakes etc. But no matter how good you are there is
still luck involved. I have lost hands with a straight on the flop to a
flush with 2 lucky [unlucky for me] turn and river...and won hands with ace
high... etc.
If you look at the results of any one hand [or set of hands] of a poker
player, you might wrongly guess his skill level. A good poker player in the
long wrong will come out ahead.
________________
Is Harry moving on a path to defeat LV because of DD? I'm sure DD isn't
perfect and we can find some individual mistakes but it might be wrong to
conclude he's an idiot because of them [maybe that he's a gambler].
Ken
Matt Clara
Maybe it's a work of fiction and not reality--if the author writes the
adults to like him, then they do, even if he's evil incarnate. That's my
way of saying Rowling often writes inconsistently, and the points you made
starting this thread underscore that. She was writing the spirit guide,
which cannot do the deed for Harry, thus it does not. The fact that adding
up what DD does do makes him look like a bumbler or worse is just JKR's
writing, and any parallel to real world adults and children is incidental.
What JKR does do well with DD is make him gentle and forgiving, and thus
seemingly very wise and safe, and that's why _we_ like him.
trinity
The nameless and the faceless just might have a problem with it.
Richard Eney
Wasn't there also "a nasty bit o' business with a hag"?
-Hagrid
=Tamar
Frodo Baggins
HE is not sacrificing lives. He is attempting to protect one crucial
life that MUST not be lost, for if that life were lost, then the arm of
the prophecy would swing, perhaps irrevocably, in LVs favour. It is
just this: if he has to make a choice between the life of Harry and
another student, he would save Harry. Now is that right or wrong? or
idiotic? Or: To provide a twist within a twist, in order to save
Longbottom, he may be making Harry the scapegoat!!!
Toon
wrote:
>1) Lockhart may be accomplished enough in Occlumancy to shield any such
>queries.
Possible. he's good with the mind wipes, so why not be good at
blocking attempts into his?
>2) Dumbledore may have suspected Lockhart of being a fraud, (possible
>without being a Legimens), but did not bother to invasively pry into
>his mind for a job that was probably not flooded with applicants in the
>first place.
and a teaching Lockhart is stealing other people's thunder and mind
wiping them.
Toon
>>It's like this. Think of everybody who died in the various Al-Queda
>>attacks,a nd the war resutling thereof. Thousands of them. Now,
>>let's pretend Bush is right (stop laughing), and saving Iraq is the
>>key to saving the world. Iraq's a peaceful democracy, the Middle East
>>quickly falls into place. By 2010, world peace is acheived. Wouldn't
>>all those lost lives suddenly be worth it, cosndiering the millons who
>>would die in a resulting World War 3? But now they'll be no WWIII.
>>Now we have everlasting peace. No racism, bigotry, prejudice, none of
>>that crud. All thsoe nameless,f aceless people who died in Bush's
>>War, in Al-Queda's atatcks, becoem validated and justified. Noble
>>martyrs who brought us peace in the end. Worth it, isn't it?
>
>The nameless and the faceless just might have a problem with it.
Yes, but if their deaths herald such greatness, not too many people
will mind it. What's oh let's say 10,000 deaths when 6 Billion
prosper because of that? Horrid for the 10K yes, but the numbers
basically widdle on down to a few malcontents, which you'll always
find.
Frodo Baggins
Surely the safety of his students come before all these trivia? He just
had a guy who had LV pasted at the back of his head as a TEACHER! Makes
sense to verify the autheticity of the next few DADA chappies even if
that means using Legilimens. Or otherwise are you arguing in favour of
the original poster ? :))
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com
Frodo Baggins wrote:
>
> HE is not sacrificing lives. He is attempting to protect one crucial
> life that MUST not be lost, for if that life were lost, then the arm of
> the prophecy would swing, perhaps irrevocably, in LVs favour. It is
> just this: if he has to make a choice between the life of Harry and
> another student, he would save Harry. Now is that right or wrong? or
> idiotic? Or: To provide a twist within a twist, in order to save
> Longbottom, he may be making Harry the scapegoat!!!
This is one I have wondered about too. I know many people would be
upset since the story is about Harry, and that would be a huge
disappointment for Harry to learn at the end, but I can see it as a
possibility since DD will do what he needs to do to beat Voldemort.
I do believe that DD has a larger plan, and many of his "mistakes" are
not mistakes but part of that plan. And we will learn what that is in
the last book.
I just don't see another valid way to explain how he shows up at
certain times like he knows things, and he lets some things go that
should have been questioned further, unless he really does know what is
going on, and knows he shouldn't interfere.
I believe book one really shows this well since it really was a setup
to test Harry, most likely to see if Harry has any taint from Voldemort
or is Voldemort. I know some people do not believe he set up the final
test for Harry, but the lame store of DD leaving and being gone so long
does not make sense once you know about floo powder, apparition, and
port keys. And even Hermoine, who we know is a good mouthpiece ofr JKR,
mentions this possibility.
Dumbledore is like a chess master. He is thinking multiple moves ahead,
setting his players in motion, and he knows he has to sacrifice some
players to win the game.
trinity
Yeah, all those whining victims & their families.... always trying to
ruin it for the rest of us.
Frodo Baggins
> >that LV is was not completely dead, DD has come to the conclusion that
> >LV has used some dark magic. He perhaps went about finding out as much
> >information from LV's former teachers as he could. Question is when
> >did Slughorn give the Horcrux information to DD? No question that DD
> >suspected that Horcruxes magic was used. When? After first year?
>
> After second year, when he learned about the diary.
>
to narrow down the ways of survival to a few dark arts, including
Horcruxes, assuming DD knew about them.
>
> >This is certainly not correct. DD knows that he is perhaps the only
> >Wizard in the world able to defeat LV in a face to face battle if it
> >comes to that.
>
> But he's not. Harry is.
I said "defeat LV in face to face battle". Not prophecied to have
"power to vanquish the Dark Lord". Having power and being able to are
two different things.
>
>
> >has cetainly kept lot of information from people around him. For eg:
> >for a person who works on his own and kept all that information from
> >others around him, would DD have been foolish enough to get into a
> >situation that he will be easily overcome? Why didnt DD block the
> >"Expel..." curse first and THEN freeze Harry? No, I dont think all this
> >adds up.
>
> He needed Harry to remain hidden, and he didn't block Draco's attack
> because Draco wouldn't listen to an armed DD. But an unarmed DD is no
> threat, and so he'll listen, always knowing DD can't be tricking him.
>
> What doesn't add up is DD believe sins elf sacrifice, and most of us
> don't. We can't even begin to fathom deliberately killing ourselves
> for the greater good, even if we have left too much undone, unknown,
> and unlearned.
>
Self sacrifice for something as foolish and vague as you suggest is not
an intelligent thing to do. I do not believe DD will commit "self
sacrifice" at the greatest hour of his need when his school is under
attack from DEs and the battle against LV needs him the most. I, for
one, cannot think that DD will sacrifice himself in the fond hope of
recovering Draco from the other side at this situation. I cannot
imagine that DD will freeze Harry FIRST without disarming Draco. For
one thing, why cant Draco, after overcoming DD, figure out that Harry
is about somewhere invisible (he sees two brooms remember), then find
him out and give him to the mercy of the Deatheaters? DD did not know
that the DA are resisting the DEs well, he had no idea. Is he going to
leave the entire school at the mercy of the DEs without jumping into
the battle? All just to "save" Draco?
Ofcouse, DD could be an idiot as the original poster suggests!
>
> >These are not secrets of personal nature. I am talking of the
> >information that DD has gleaned which will help in defeating LV.
>
> Information any DE can get by Legils. So far, only DD, Snape,
> Bellatrix, Draco, and V can Occuls. Harry knows the principles, but
> won't allow himself to master it in practice. Everybody else is a
> liability. If DD has any secret info, he's already left it for Harry
> to receive.
>
> >Yes. As I mentioned before, DD does not know everything about the
> >school. Many things may be hidden from even him.
> >
> >> Andreas
>
> That is the whole point. DD is not all knowing, not infallible, no
> matter what Harry perceives him to be. if Dd is revealed to have been
> all knowing, it'll ruin the story.
To YOU, that will ruin the story. To me, any ending that leaves huge
holes in the story line will ruin the story. I would assume that is the
case for people who try to figure out from clues that JKR is supposed
to have left around from which she claims all can be deduced.
DaveD
"Frodo Baggins" <douf...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1168590766....@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
If only! Let's just hope Dd hasn't fucked up big time like certain other
people appear to have done...
> > The nameless and the faceless just might have a problem with it.
Well, people do make huge selfsacrifices in times of war - think of the
people who volunteered in the First World War. Ok, they hadn't a clue what
they were letting themselves in for in the trenches, and I suspect many
didn't know the actual issues behind the war, but they saw what they thought
was the right thing to do, and volunteered none-the-less. People can and do
do amazing things when they think it's the right thing to do.
Admittedly the nameless and faceless may have had issues with being
sacrificed like that with no say in the matter, but sometimes you do have to
make tough decisions.
There's also the painful conundrum of saving a definite and specified life
now but at the risk of other unknown lives possibly being lost in the
future. Most people will save the "present life" and hope to retrieve the
situation before any "possible lives" are lost later on.
> HE is not sacrificing lives. He is attempting to protect one crucial
> life that MUST not be lost, for if that life were lost, then the arm of
> the prophecy would swing, perhaps irrevocably, in LVs favour. It is
> just this: if he has to make a choice between the life of Harry and
> another student, he would save Harry. Now is that right or wrong? or
> idiotic? Or: To provide a twist within a twist, in order to save
> Longbottom, he may be making Harry the scapegoat!!!
Of course, the problem with prophecies is the balance between the extent to
which they're alterable vs a partially predetermined future set out in the
prophecy. If Harry's the only one who can vanquish Voldy and he's also
stated to have a run in with him, then does Dd need to do anything at all to
keep him safe? After all, how could something happen to Harry - it would
void the prophecy, ergo Harry's safe, at least for now.
DaveD
Toon
wrote:
>Surely the safety of his students come before all these trivia? He just
>had a guy who had LV pasted at the back of his head as a TEACHER! Makes
>sense to verify the autheticity of the next few DADA chappies even if
>that means using Legilimens. Or otherwise are you arguing in favour of
>the original poster ? :))
Look at the evidence. Voldemort, one of the evilest wizards ever,
just spent a school year in Hogwarts, and did absolutely nothing to
the school, staff (Quirrell doesn't count), or students. One attempt
on Harry (who knows why he chose then), but that didn't even pique
DD's suspicions. And Harry was technically safe from him. It's not
exactly a big deal, considering how much worse it should have been.
Toon
<frie...@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote:
>I just don't see another valid way to explain how he shows up at
>certain times like he knows things, and he lets some things go that
>should have been questioned further, unless he really does know what is
>going on, and knows he shouldn't interfere.
That's why the Ron is DD theory was so good. It explained things
neatly. DD had lived through these things before, and knew as long as
he didn't interfere, things 'd turn out OK.
>Dumbledore is like a chess master. He is thinking multiple moves ahead,
>setting his players in motion, and he knows he has to sacrifice some
>players to win the game.
I'd have loved to see him play against Ron.
Toon
Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Course, if this
were to happen, I'd love a giant monument with all the dead's names on
it erected in memory of the fallen. But I'll gladly sacrifice 6,000
lives to save 6 Billion.
trinity
If it comes down to a choice.. then of course but sadly & hesitantly
not gladly.
james.t...@gmail.com
You didn't even mention his very first canon bit of idiocy. Not only
did he drop off a baby to people that hated his parents and magic, but
he dumped the baby on a doorstep and left. That alone is grounds for
jail time in my book. The man seems compassionate, but his actions say
he is an idiot or a child abuser.
trinity wrote:
> Please consider the following:
>
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com
Toon wrote:
> On 12 Jan 2007 03:35:06 -0800, "frie...@zoocrewphoto.com"
> <frie...@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote:
>
> >I just don't see another valid way to explain how he shows up at
> >certain times like he knows things, and he lets some things go that
> >should have been questioned further, unless he really does know what is
> >going on, and knows he shouldn't interfere.
>
>
> That's why the Ron is DD theory was so good. It explained things
> neatly. DD had lived through these things before, and knew as long as
> he didn't interfere, things 'd turn out OK.
Yes. I can see the flaws in that theory, but I like the idea of it
since it solves a lot of the things that don't make sense to me yet. I
have a really hard time with the fact that he just shows up at certain
times, seems to know things (and not just in Harry's limited view), but
at the same time, he lets things happen as if he knows they will turn
out okay.
I do believe that Dumbledore has a big plan, and I think he knows a lot
more than he is telling.
>
> >Dumbledore is like a chess master. He is thinking multiple moves ahead,
> >setting his players in motion, and he knows he has to sacrifice some
> >players to win the game.
>
> I'd have loved to see him play against Ron.
Yes, that would be very interesting.
Toon
wrote:
>Self sacrifice for something as foolish and vague as you suggest is not
>an intelligent thing to do. I do not believe DD will commit "self
>sacrifice" at the greatest hour of his need when his school is under
>attack from DEs and the battle against LV needs him the most. I, for
>one, cannot think that DD will sacrifice himself in the fond hope of
>recovering Draco from the other side at this situation. I cannot
>imagine that DD will freeze Harry FIRST without disarming Draco. For
>one thing, why cant Draco, after overcoming DD, figure out that Harry
>is about somewhere invisible (he sees two brooms remember), then find
>him out and give him to the mercy of the Deatheaters? DD did not know
>that the DA are resisting the DEs well, he had no idea. Is he going to
>leave the entire school at the mercy of the DEs without jumping into
>the battle? All just to "save" Draco?
That's because you're a Muggle, and wizards think quite differently.
To us, Quidditch is practical suicide. To wizards, it's no worse than
our football.
Toon
<davedn...@THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote:
>Of course, the problem with prophecies is the balance between the extent to
>which they're alterable vs a partially predetermined future set out in the
>prophecy. If Harry's the only one who can vanquish Voldy and he's also
>stated to have a run in with him, then does Dd need to do anything at all to
>keep him safe? After all, how could something happen to Harry - it would
>void the prophecy, ergo Harry's safe, at least for now.
Well, DD seemed concerned only with Voldemort returning and exacting
his revenge. Trelawny never gave a date, an age, or anything. The
MOM thought there's a good chance it had already come to pass. DD
knew better, and made preparations just in case. Without a date, 5
year old Harry could be involve din the final fight. And with no
winner determined, Harry would definitely be a goner. This could be
why DD never checked the secret passages. Siirus could not kill
Harry, and now, DD could set a trap for him. A trap that could have
failed because he never expected Sirius to be an animagus and go dog
to get through. Perhaps Ron's claim of being attacked 9not realizing
Scabebrs was the target), made DD realize something was amiss, since
Sirius should have been targeting Hary only.
Toon
>>Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Course, if this
>>were to happen, I'd love a giant monument with all the dead's names on
>>it erected in memory of the fallen. But I'll gladly sacrifice 6,000
>>lives to save 6 Billion.
>
>If it comes down to a choice.. then of course but sadly & hesitantly
>not gladly.
>
Well, it helps that we're talking about nameless and faceless people.
Toon
>DoubleDumb is either an idiot or an uncaring psychopath.
>You didn't even mention his very first canon bit of idiocy. Not only
>did he drop off a baby to people that hated his parents and magic, but
>he dumped the baby on a doorstep and left. That alone is grounds for
>jail time in my book. The man seems compassionate, but his actions say
>he is an idiot or a child abuser.
I was the first to bring that up a while ago, and people didn't care
for my take on things. Apprently that was the right move to make.
DD also had no choice who he left Harry with. magic haters, Potter
haters, the worst Muggles of all time. Petunia guaranteed Harry's
safety (if she agreed to it). Everythign else is just fluff. As long
as he's not abused. And what they did to him just stays above that
line, barely. After learning what they truly were, DD gave them one
heck of a piece of his mind on HBP. Even pointing out what they did
to Dudley as well.
DaveD
On the one hand, I can't see JKR writing Dd as committing suicide which is
one way that some might construe his self-sacrifice.
But the phrase does bring to mind Ron's self-sacrifice in the Wizard's Chess
game in PS, and JKR has been known to reuse a theme/good idea! It may be
that Dd and Snape were outmanoeuvred by the UV, and whilst they knew Draco
was trying to kill Dd, never expected him to even get close - the 2 cabinets
was a surprise to Dd so it's possible he was cornered on the tower and,
weakened by the potion, decided the best (or even only) outcome was his
self-sacrifice.
That said, I tend to agree it's hard to understand: surely the school and
its students, as well as the wizarding world, would be much safer with Dd
around?
DaveD
Lady of the Rings
news:SEsqh.77858$Kh7....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> That said, I tend to agree it's hard to understand: surely the school and
> its students, as well as the wizarding world, would be much safer with Dd
> around?
"As long as someone truly faithful to me remains, Hogwarts would never be in
danger", or something like that. Didn't Dd (in Italian translated into
Silente, Silent man) say that over and over to Harry?
--
Lady
DaveD
"Lady of the Rings" <madarts...@yahooSPAMMALORO.it> wrote in message
news:45aa5832$0$19101$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...
Yes, he's said that in several of the books so I guess there's something to
it. But what?
And how can loyalty to Dd protect Hogwarts once he's dead? I can't imagine
Fawkes protecting the place singlehanded (or single-winged!) but who/what
else could and would, on account of someone's continued loyalty to Dd?
DaveD
Lady of the Rings
> Yes, he's said that in several of the books so I guess there's something
> to
> it. But what?
>
> And how can loyalty to Dd protect Hogwarts once he's dead?
How can Love protect Harry once those who love him are dead?
>I can't imagine
> Fawkes protecting the place singlehanded (or single-winged!) but who/what
> else could and would, on account of someone's continued loyalty to Dd?
McGonagall and Hagrid, for instance. She might leave Hogwarts once it is
closed, but not before, for sure. And he said he is staying, no matter what.
This not to mention the dynamic duo (Hermy and Ron), if Harry leaves... And
I'm sure I'm leaving out the other boy the profecy might refer to: Neville
Longbottom (I'm fighting myself with the names, being McGonanagall McGranitt
in Italian, granito is a rock, and Longbottom a Paciock, being a deformation
of paciocco, something fat, fluffy and peaceful)
--
Lady
wsb
powerful, but obsessed with the idea that Harry have a childhood before
having to fight. Voldemort comes back too soon to see that happen.
Strangely enough, Dumbledore also appears to be a pacifist. I can only
imagine what it took for Dumbledore to attack Grindewalde.
1. Harry was one of the few who could get the Stone from the mirror. It
was safe. There is no excuse for the Dursleys. Harry could easily have
been the next dark wizard. Harry survives troll and Quirrell by luck.
2. The key to the Chamber of Secrets was the parseltongue ability. Harry
survives by luck.
3. The lack of a trial for Sirius is inexcuseable. Harry survives by luck.
4. Harry survives by luck again.
5. Dumbledore should, by this time, be giving Harry rigorous training. Not
happening. Dumbledore by this time should know Harry needs close guidance.
Harry is lucky again.
6. A rambling book that tries to set up book 7.
Dumbledore is probably the most powerful and well educated wizard, but he
has little concept of Harry's personal needs other than to stay alive. The
wizarding world's treatment of orphans, and especially Dumbledore's
treatment of orphan Harry is deplorable. Why they don't have more dark
wizards is beyond me. Harry probably would have killed Malfoy in the real
world.
JKR never pretends this isn't a glorified Cinderella story. I don't know
how she is going to tie up the loose ends in book seven, other than some
lucky encounters. That is her pattern.
People enjoy the idea of the magical world and Harry overcoming adversity.
The books have generated quite a bit of fan fiction with offshoots on the
troubles with the Cinderella story. It is entertainment.
Markku Uttula
>>> OK, from the point
>>> that LV is was not completely dead, DD has come to the conclusion
>>> that LV has used some dark magic. He perhaps went about finding out
>>> as much information from LV's former teachers as he could.
>>> Question is when did Slughorn give the Horcrux information to DD?
>>> No question that DD suspected that Horcruxes magic was used. When?
>>> After first year?
>>
>> After second year, when he learned about the diary.
>
> After first year, he knew LV was existing in some form. That is enough
> to narrow down the ways of survival to a few dark arts, including
> Horcruxes, assuming DD knew about them.
Dumbledore most certainly was aware of horcruxes (not the fact that
Voldemort had created a horcrux, but the object in general). When
Slughorn told Tom Riddle in HBP that "it's a banned subject in Hogwarts,
you know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it...", note that
it's Dumbledore, not Arnold Dippet (who was the headmaster at that
time), who was particularly fierce about them being a banned subject in
Hogwarts.
--
Markku Uttula
Markku Uttula
> Well, people do make huge selfsacrifices in times of war - think of
> the people who volunteered in the First World War. Ok, they hadn't a
> clue what they were letting themselves in for in the trenches, and I
> suspect many didn't know the actual issues behind the war, but they
> saw what they thought was the right thing to do, and volunteered
> none-the-less. People can and do do amazing things when they think
> it's the right thing to do.
I wish to point out that no-one really had a clue of what was going on.
The whole thing was so large in scale that anything of even nearing the
magnitude happened about the time of Genghis-khan.
--
Markku Uttula
Here in Minnesota
> To some extent, the Potter series is a Cinderella fairytale.
yeap
-snip-.
>
> 1. -snip- Harry survives... by luck.
> 2. ... Harry survives by luck.
>
> 3. .... Harry survives
> by luck.
> 4. Harry survives by luck again.
>
> 5. .... Harry is lucky again.
>
-snip-
Luck vs Fate
In the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf believed that the world was guided by more
than luck.... that Bilbo and Frodo did not get the ring because of "luck".
I'll call it "fate". I think DD also believes in "fate".
I also think that DD is MUCH more behind the scenes that is seen [which has
been alluded to in the books].
Ken
nys...@cs.com
> Please consider the following:
I like your list, but I am going to defend DD. Alot of your complaints
essentially boil down to his not being omnipotent or omniscient. But
how powerful should he be? He is a fictional wizard. Wizards, by and
large, are a pretty silly bunch in these novels. Is there anyone MORE
effective than he? "Wizard" does not equal "god."
> 1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
> his parents & begrudged him.
This is a mainly a hindsight objection. It is not clear that DD had
any way of anticipating how badly the Dursleys were going to treat
Harry. I suppose you will object that, since McG anticipated problems,
DD should have as well. But McG's objections were a bit vague.
Moreover, it has since been revealed that there were powerful magical
reasons why Harry had to be placed with relatives. Finally, since Book
7 has not been released yet, any assessment is premature.
> Put such powerful enchantments around the
> stone that 1st year students were able to break through to the stone.
You are forgetting the final enchantment, which was a bit of a doozy,
and which was his own, and which would have stopped Voldy even had
Harry not intervened.
> Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
> did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
Well, Quirriell did not have Voldemort attached to the back of his head
when DD hired him. Moreoever, it is likely that DD did notice, since
we know Snape noticed, and Snape reports to DD. Please note also that,
had Harry & Friends not interfered, the attempt to gain the stone would
still have been entirely unsuccessful.
> 2. Chamber of Secrets -Put such a powerful enhantment on #4 Privett
> that a house elf could pop in and out at will (thankfully he meant no
> harm to Harry).
The enchantment was created by Harry's mother, not by DD. We are not
sure exactly how the spell works, but, since Dobby meant no harm to
Harry, you might as well complain that the enchantments failed to keep
out Aunt Marge or Uncle Vernon.
> Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
I'm not sure that everyone else knew he was a fraud, but DD did, and so
did Hagrid. Hagrid makes clear that there was no other choice except
leave the post vacant.
> Had a giant snake roaming through his school attacking
> students & was powerless to stop it.
I'm not entirely sure what he would or should have done, except what he
did -- assign escorts for all the students between classes. We are
asked to accept that the Chamber of Secrets, and its monster, had
sufficient magical protection as to be almost impossible to find.
Moreover, I still doubt that all is quite as it seems -- we still don't
know the full story of what happened in the Chamber of Secrets, in my
opinion.
Here's a question for you: Why does McG, when she sees two students
wandering unescorted through the halls, just leave them.
> Also a cursed diary was using a
> 1st year student to open the chamber, kill roosters & write on walls &
> DD couldn't figure it out. A 12 year old figured out where the chamber
> was but DD couldn't? BTW the 12yr old did it in less than 8 months
> Dumbledore had 50 years.
The 12-year old knew Parseltongue. DD did not. It is a simple thing
to open a lock, when you have the key. As a result of this advantage,
Harry had clues as to the location of the Chamber that he hid from DD.
> 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
Arguably one of his better decisions, despite the risk, since many
Hogwarts students actually learned to defend themselves that year.
> Found out that 3 students
> had taught themselves to be animagi and roamed the countryside once a
> month right under DD's nose.
I suppose your complaint is not that he found out, but that he did not
find out earlier.
This is indeed interesting that DD never found this out until the end
of Harry's third year. This means that Lupin, Pettigrew, Potter and
Black all joined the Order of the Phoenix, during the first war against
Voldemort, without ever revealing this secret to DD.
Your objection applies even more to McG than it does to DD. It is McG
who was delegated the task of supervising the Gryffindor students (the
house where all the Marauders belong). But she never finds out either,
or, if she does, she never tells DD about it. Is it a coincidence that
she too is an animagus?
> An alleged escaped killer was able to get
> into Hogwarts more than once and was actually living on the grounds.
Well, the defense of the perimeter was taken out of DD's hands, and
placed in the hands of dementors. Moreover, nobody, even DD, knew that
Sirius was an animagus, who was therefore resistant to, and capable of
bypassing, dementors.
Interestingly, Lupin did know this important fact, but still never told
DD the secret. He should have.
> When the truth was finally discovered all Dumbledore could do was
> suggest 2 children go back in time & clean up the mess.
It was an obvious suggestion, to suggest that they do what he had
reason to suspect they had already done. Time travel is so warped.
> 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA.
Again, to be fair, he was not a disguised deatheater when he was hired.
> Crouch was able to fool
> him for the entire year using polyjuice potion.
To be fair, he was not fooled for the ENTIRE year. DD *DOES* figure it
out, and Crouch is stopped because of it. He had, I suppose, better
things to do than monitor someone he thought he trusted. I wonder,
though, whether he would have guessed earlier had he been personally
present during the bouncing ferret incident.
> Did not protest Harry
> being forced into the Triwizard Tourney even though it was apparent
> that his name was entered fraudulently by persons unknown with unknown
> intentions.
We are, of course, asked to accept that, due to the nature of the
magical contract, DD was powerless to prevent this.
> Didn't notice the rampant cheating or the fact that Moody
> (Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help Harry win.
You are forgetting that DD has no way of knowing that the evil scheme
is to help Harry win, as opposed to cause his death. Nor does he care
much who wins the tournament, as long as all survive. He has no reason
to assume that "rampant cheating" is part of a nefarious evil plot.
> The phony teacher
> was able to turn the trophy into a portkey transport 2 students off
> school grounds resulting in the death of one student & enabling the
> return of Voldemort.
Yes. That happened. But DD did not have exclusive control over the
Tri-Wizard tournament.
> 5. Order of the Phoenix - Once Dumbledore determined that Harry may
> have unique access to Voldemorts thoughts & plans, he swiftly went
> into action by avoiding Harry & having a teacher who hates Harry's
> guts give him private lessons on blocking out the thoughts.
Yes. But you are assuming in hindsight that, because this did not
work, it could not have worked, and that other alternatives would
necessarily have turned out better.
> Allowed
> Umbridge to come to Hogwarts & did virtually nothing to stop her.
Did you want him to single-handedly take on the entire ministry?
> His
> apparent lack of interest led Harry to have to try & teach DADA
> himself since no one else was.
He shielded and protected Harry, sacrificing his position so that Harry
and the rest of the DA members could remain at the school.
> Even though DD knew Voldemort was back
> he seemed to have little interest in preparing his students.
Again, you are asking him to be all-powerful in defying the ministry.
You are accusing him of not doing exactly what the ministry was
determined to prevent him from doing. He was removed as headmaster
when he (falsely) confessed to doing what you say he should have done
(in order to protect those who WERE doing it).
> His
> seeming lack of concern led Harry to go to the ministry and try to
> thwart Voldemort and DD was the last to arrive which was too late to
> help Sirius.
This is simply wrong. JKR explains how these events transpired, and
they were not due to lack of concern by DD.
> 6. Half Blood Prince - His "taking a personal interest" in Harry's
> education resulted mostly in DD's home movies as they watched Tom
> Riddle - This is your life. Ignored repeated warnings that Malfoy was
> planning something terrible. Took Harry with him into the sea cave but
> never noticed that the locket they were looking for was not the
> Horcrux. I thought that DD could "feel" the presence of dark magic??
> Let a 15 yr old disarm him and was killed by Snape - a person that
> noboby in their right mind thought could be trusted.
Ah. Your 20-20 hindsight has failed you, because JKR has not yet
revealed the end of this story arc. You are not criticizing the thing
he did wrong, but the things he did right, as will be revealed in book
7..
> Someone help me understand how any of this makes him the greatest
> wizard of the age?
Who would you nominate instead. Fudge? Umbridge? Scrimgeour?
Voldemort? McGonagall? Lupin? Moody? Hermione?
Toon
<davedn...@THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote:
>That said, I tend to agree it's hard to understand: surely the school and
>its students, as well as the wizarding world, would be much safer with Dd
>around?
>
>
>DaveD
>
Ironically no. Look at it this way. All the while DD was alive, he
never could take down Voldemort. Voldemort practically won the war,
then came the Prophecy and Harry. Harry put V on an extended hiatus,
then he came back with a vengeance. Now that DD's dead, Harry's
taking the fight to him, and he's going to win. The world seems
better off without DD. Harry had zero interest in fighting when DD
was alive. And he needs to fight and win to end all the pain and
suffering once and forever.
Now, what would have happened if there was no Order of The Phoenix?
Would Vodlemroit have mellowed out without any challengers? Or would
he be worse because he was unopposed? I say the latter myself.
Toon
Maybe Fawkes left to recruit some more phoenixes. Heh, a real Order
of The Phoenixes. Or something else. perhaps he was under DD's
orders to do something once DD died. perhaps there was a second
reason for his lament? A protection spell being set up?
Toon
<madarts...@yahooSPAMMALORO.it> wrote:
>How can Love protect Harry once those who love him are dead?
Apprently by renewing in a place with that lover's blood offering
love.
Toon
>To some extent, the Potter series is a Cinderella fairytale. Dumbledore is
>powerful, but obsessed with the idea that Harry have a childhood before
>having to fight. Voldemort comes back too soon to see that happen.
>Strangely enough, Dumbledore also appears to be a pacifist. I can only
>imagine what it took for Dumbledore to attack Grindewalde.
1) Who said he ever attacked? He defeated. That's all we know.
2) maybe he paid a price far worse than even death. Maybe that's why
he is as he is today. The guilt is too much to do it again with
Voldemort. Maybe he had to use AK, and never forgave himself.
In The Stone, MCG is taking with him outside the Dursley, and mention
DD could use the Drak Arts, but is much too noble too, and DD brushes
it off saying she's being much too generous. Alhtough he admits
Vodlemort has power she knows not. Could his reaction be because once
upon a time he did use those spells, and fails guilty being credited
above it all?
>1. Harry was one of the few who could get the Stone from the mirror. It
>was safe. There is no excuse for the Dursleys.
There was also no other option but the Dursleys. Now, why not scare
them into changing is another question.
>Harry could easily have
>been the next dark wizard.
Maybe that's the idea. You need a Dark Lord to kill the Dark Lord.
But maybe the mother's love in Harry was enhanced by the ancient magic
to keep him pure enough to become the AntiVoldemort. His exact but
opposite double. Good to V's bad. Powered not by hate, but by love.
The similar life let's Harry relate and feel. And what's worse to one
who is pained by love? Knowing someone feels sorry for them. That's
a form of love right there.
>Harry survives troll and Quirrell by luck.
No, by his mom's sacrifice, his Aunt's letting him live with her and
her family.
>3. The lack of a trial for Sirius is inexcuseable. Harry survives by luck.
Not luck. There was never a threat. Sirius was after Scabbers/Peter,
not Harry and Harry ends it all by sparing Peter's life. Because of
love. Love for his father's memory,a d what he would expect of his
friends towards each other.
>4. Harry survives by luck again.
And mental superiority. And love residing in his parents echoes, and
compassion from the other fallen's echoes.
>
>5. Dumbledore should, by this time, be giving Harry rigorous training.
Yes. And just Occuls don't count. Lupin taught him more. I'm sure
the patronus will figure into the final battle. It's base don
happiness, good cheer, love.
>Not
>happening. Dumbledore by this time should know Harry needs close guidance.
>Harry is lucky again.
Or, he gets a taste of what he has to sue to win by expelling
Vodlemort.
>6. A rambling book that tries to set up book 7.
Harry feels sorry for Vodlemort. Could be the clincher.
>Dumbledore is probably the most powerful and well educated wizard, but he
>has little concept of Harry's personal needs other than to stay alive. The
>wizarding world's treatment of orphans,
Do we know how they treat orphans? Remember, family after family
volunteered to raise Harry as one of their own.
>and especially Dumbledore's
>treatment of orphan Harry is deplorable.
Not really. He keeps him alive. Gives him constant protection from
Voldemort should he return before Harry is ready to fight him.
> Why they don't have more dark
>wizards is beyond me. Harry probably would have killed Malfoy in the real
>world.
Why don't we have more terrorists? We had Napolean. Nobody was ever
an equal challenge. Ditto in WWII. One asshole, the end. Look ho
far apart these two morons came? There seems to be a lack of interest
really. Todya we basically have Al-Queda, who cma eout of nowhere. No
other terroists group have arisen. No competiton. No trying to frame
them for their crimes so theyc na go unretaliated against? Seems some
basic, innate oen despot per attack philosophy ingrained in humans.
>JKR never pretends this isn't a glorified Cinderella story. I don't know
>how she is going to tie up the loose ends in book seven, other than some
>lucky encounters. That is her pattern.
Luck can be a big help, but Harry was not quite as lucky as you think
he was. I guess you can say he's lucky his aunt took him in despite
being everything she hated most, a wizard.
>People enjoy the idea of the magical world and Harry overcoming adversity.
>The books have generated quite a bit of fan fiction with offshoots on the
>troubles with the Cinderella story. It is entertainment.
>
That's the whole point.
Toon
<neverwill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>. I think DD also believes in "fate".
But he doesn't. He says he doesn't believe in prophecies, but our
choices. He also stakes everything on the only prophecy he heard for
himself.
Toon
<markku...@perlasoft.fi> wrote:
>Dumbledore most certainly was aware of horcruxes (not the fact that
>Voldemort had created a horcrux, but the object in general). When
>Slughorn told Tom Riddle in HBP that "it's a banned subject in Hogwarts,
>you know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it...", note that
>it's Dumbledore, not Arnold Dippet (who was the headmaster at that
>time), who was particularly fierce about them being a banned subject in
>Hogwarts.
But it's Dippet's decision, not DD's. Maybe the Board of Governors as
well. Not just a teacher's.
Lady of the Rings
news:kntmq2lbsoc9uukbv...@4ax.com...
Aberforth leaves close to Hogwarts Lily/Petunia=Albus/Aberforth?
--
Lady
Here in Minnesota
When I said that "DD also believes in "fate"." I wasn't meaning the
predestination vs free will type of fate.
I meant it more like the example I gave [which was sniped] with Gandalf...
Gandalf believed that it was "fate" for Frodo to have the ring but still
believed Frodo to have free choice... to be the ring bearer, to not be
seduced by the ring, etc.
"Gandalf believed that the world was guided by more than luck"
In the same way I think that, DD believed that there where other powers
working in the world. I agree that DD was not fatalistic [believing in
prophecy and not choice].
This goes well with my other point that DD was more active behind the scenes
that Harry saw.
Ken
Fish Eye no Miko
> "wsb" <wsb...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Why they don't have more dark wizards is beyond me. Harry
> > probably would have killed Malfoy in the real world.
>
> Why don't we have more terrorists? We had Napolean.
Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy call him evil.
> Nobody was ever an equal challenge. Ditto in WWII. One asshole,
> the end. Look ho far apart these two morons came?
Historically speaking, they were actually pretty close together.
> There seems to be a lack of interest really. Todya we basically
> have Al-Queda, who cma eout of nowhere.
Well, no. It had its origins in Afghanistan, fighting off the Soviet
invasion of that country. That was in the 80's.
> No other terroists group have arisen. No competiton.
"Al-Queda" isn't even one organization... Several groups call
themselves that, actually. And what about the group that set off bombs
in Spain? Do you know who that was? It wasn't Al-Queda, or anyone
connected to them. What about the IRA?
And there have been--and still are--certainly other leaders out there
that might be called "evil". Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin... Even
nowadays we have Kim Jong Il and Robert Mugabe, among others. Just
because they're not, say, trying to take over the world, or because you
might not have heard of them doesn't make them less "evil".
And you wanna talk "evil", let's talk about people like Jeffrey Dahmer
or Charles Ng, or ...
There is MORE than enough "competition" for "evil wizard" among us
Muggles.
Catherine Johnson.
nys...@cs.com
> Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy call him evil.
Neither would I ... unless, of course, mass murder is evil. He was a
butcher to be sure, but so what? After all, they were only human
beings.
Here in Minnesota
I think she is talking about a different Napoleon. Not the one who left
about 4 to 6 million dead after 17 years of war, bankrupt France, invaded
Russia, etc. Not the Napoleon who said to Foreign Minister of Austria that
he would rather sacrifice a million French lives rather than to be
dishonored. I think she is talking about a different Napoleon.
Fish Eye no Miko
Well, if we're gonna talk about conquerers as evil, then there be a LOT
of them. The suggestion that Napoleon was somehow unique in some
respect strikes me as odd...
Catherine Johnson.
Fish Eye no Miko
> nys...@cs.com wrote:
> > Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>
> >> Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy call him evil.
> >
> > Neither would I ... unless, of course, mass murder is evil. He was a
> > butcher to be sure, but so what? After all, they were only human
> > beings.
>
> I think she is talking about a different Napoleon. Not the one who left
> about 4 to 6 million dead after 17 years of war,
And how was his war somehow unique in European history? Or World
history? See, in the context of Toon's post (in reply to; "Why aren't
there more dark Wizards?", he was pointing that that there aren't; a
lot of "evil" Muggles), he was calling people like Napoleon unique in..
I dunno.. Their cruelty? Pure scale of death? What? What makes HIM
more evil than many others who've come before and after him?
Catherine Johnson.
Fish Eye no Miko
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> trinity wrote:
> > Please consider the following:
>
> I like your list, but I am going to defend DD. Alot of your
> complaints essentially boil down to his not being
> omnipotent or omniscient.
We know he can read minds, which, if he bothered, would have solved a
lot of problems throughout the books (Quirrelmort, BartyCrouch).
> > 1. Philosophers Stone - Dumbledore sent an infant to people that hated
> > his parents & begrudged him.
>
> This is a mainly a hindsight objection. It is not clear that DD had
> any way of anticipating how badly the Dursleys were going to treat
> Harry.
In the real world, when a child is left with someone other than their
biological parents (and heck, sometimes with their biological parents,
if they've shown to be negligent or abusive in the past), the persons
responsible at least try to check up and make sure the kid isn't being
abused. And, btw, wasn't Arabella Figg reporting things to him?
> I suppose you will object that, since McG anticipated problems,
> DD should have as well. But McG's objections were a bit vague.
I actually do agree with that. It kind of added to, "I don't like
them".
> Moreover, it has since been revealed that there were powerful magical
> reasons why Harry had to be placed with relatives.
Still, maybe they could have tried to help out; maybe try to put
pressure on the Durleys to treat Harry better At the LEAST they should
have tried to make sure Harry knew his true heritage.
> > Hired Quirrell as DADA teacher & never noticed all the things Quirrell
> > did or the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head.
>
> Well, Quirriell did not have Voldemort attached to the back of his head
> when DD hired him. Moreoever, it is likely that DD did notice, since
> we know Snape noticed, and Snape reports to DD. Please note also that,
> had Harry & Friends not interfered, the attempt to gain the stone would
> still have been entirely unsuccessful.
True, but he caused several problems otherwise (remember the Quidditch
match?).
> > Hired a vain idiot (Lockhart) that everyone else knew was a fraud.
>
> I'm not sure that everyone else knew he was a fraud, but DD did,
> and so did Hagrid. Hagrid makes clear that there was no other
> choice except leave the post vacant.
That could have hardly been worse, frankly.
> > 3. Prisoner of Azkaban - Hired a werewolf.
>
> Arguably one of his better decisions, despite the risk, since many
> Hogwarts students actually learned to defend themselves that year.
Yeah, Lupin's arguably one of the best things to happen to the school
during Harry's time there.
> > 4. Hired a disguised deatheater to teach DADA.
>
> Again, to be fair, he was not a disguised deatheater when he was hired.
That's the same thing that happened with Quirrellmort. Maybe DD should
use his mind reading when the school year starts. Especially given the
"odd incident" that occurred at Moody's place right before the school
started. Red flag, anyone?
> > Crouch was able to fool him for the entire year using
> > polyjuice potion.
>
> To be fair, he was not fooled for the ENTIRE year.
That's a pretty fine hair to split, frankly.
> DD *DOES* figure it out, and Crouch is stopped because of
> it.
Stopping him BEFORE he sent Harry to the cemetery and unwillingly
helped revive Voldemort woulda been nice, though. To say nothing of
what happened to Cedric.
> He had, I suppose, better things to do than monitor someone he thought
> he trusted.
He thought he could trust Quirrell and Lupin, too, and that ending up
being a bad idea (Lupin knew about Sirius, who even Lupin, at the time,
thought wanted to kill Harry). How many times does he get to screw up
before we start asking just a little more effort from him?
> > Didn't notice the rampant cheating or the fact that Moody
> > (Crouch) was fixing the tourney to help Harry win.
>
> You are forgetting that DD has no way of knowing that the evil scheme
> is to help Harry win, as opposed to cause his death.
Right. It's not like he can read minds or--oh, wait...
Frankly, I think somewhat retroactively (I say "somewhat", since there
were suggestions of it before OtP) making DD a mind reader was a REALLY
BAD idea on Jo's part. I could forgive a lot of DD's mistakes if I
didn't find myself thinking, "Gee, if only he'd taken a few second to
read so-and-so's mind..."
Catherine Johnson.
Here in Minnesota
Sorry if I sounded harsh or missed the point of the discussion. I was just
so surprised when I read "I'd hardy call him evil" in regards to "Napoleon".
Going back to Nero I can not think of more than 10 or so people responsible
for so many deaths and I can't think of hardly anyone so callus about his
own troupes.
I still don't understand your comments... "Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy
call him evil." Is there no one evil in your eyes? I know that it's not just
numbers of deaths... Nero was even crueler than Hitler but not never as
"effective" in his killing. Napoleon was very "effective" for the time but
not quite has cruel [unless you count indifference].
You might be right about Napoleon "uniqueness" in Europe and world
history... but "I'd hardy call him evil."?
nys...@cs.com
> a lot of problems throughout the books (Quirrelmort, BartyCrouch).
No. Actually, he CANNOT read minds. He can perform Legilimency,
which, as Snape explains (nobody listens to Snape) is NOT mindreading
in the crude sense you clearly have in mind. It is not as effective as
you imagine in the first place, and, moreoever, a competent wizard can
defend against it without his defenses being detected. Otherwise,
Snape as double-agent would be inconceivable.
> Right. It's not like he can read minds or--oh, wait...
Exactly! It's not like he can just read minds.
> Frankly, I think somewhat retroactively (I say "somewhat", since
> there were suggestions of it before OtP) making DD a mind reader
> was a REALLY BAD idea on Jo's part.
That's probably why she rejected the idea, and did not make DD a
mind-reader.
> I could forgive a lot of DD's mistakes if I
> didn't find myself thinking, "Gee, if only he'd taken a few second
> to read so-and-so's mind..."
Right. All he would have had to do would be to turn to page 42 of
so-and-so's mind, under the heading "Secrets from Dumbledore." But, of
course, legilimency does not work that way.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >> nys...@cs.com wrote:
> >>> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy call him evil.
> >>>
> >>> Neither would I ... unless, of course, mass murder is evil. He was
> >>> a butcher to be sure, but so what? After all, they were only human
> >>> beings.
> >>
> >> I think she is talking about a different Napoleon. Not the one who
> >> left about 4 to 6 million dead after 17 years of war,
> >
> > And how was his war somehow unique in European history? Or World
> > history? See, in the context of Toon's post (in reply to; "Why aren't
> > there more dark Wizards?", he was pointing that that there aren't; a
> > lot of "evil" Muggles), he was calling people like Napoleon unique
> > in.. I dunno.. Their cruelty? Pure scale of death? What? What
> > makes HIM more evil than many others who've come before and after him?
>
> Sorry if I sounded harsh or missed the point of the discussion. I was just
> so surprised when I read "I'd hardy call him evil" in regards to "Napoleon".
> Going back to Nero I can not think of more than 10 or so people responsible
> for so many deaths and I can't think of hardly anyone so callus about his
> own troupes.
To be honest, I don't know that much about Napoleon. But, as I later
said, he hardly seems UNIQUE in his evil, which was what Toon was
claiming.
> I still don't understand your comments... "Napoleon? Seriously? I'd hardy
> call him evil." Is there no one evil in your eyes?
Ok, where did you get THAT from my comments? I even mentioned some
specific people I do think are evil.
Catherine Johnson.