How wealthy is Harry? *SPOILERS*
Zorch
he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
money too? I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson he'd never met).
Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
from his initial investment. I suspect Harry will never have to worry
about money.. what do you think?
Corinne Rainbow
Sirius was his godfather... nothing to be legal guardian, his legal
guardians are the dursleys. officially, sirius is nothing for Harry as
always are godparents.
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yak
address.com says...
> NewsGroups : Hello/Bonjour Zorch , tu nous a dit / you told us
>
> > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book
> > that he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he
> > inherit Sirius's money too? I got the impression he would have
> > since Sirius was supposedly his legal guardian, and I think
> > Sirius had quite a large sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt
> > for a godson he'd never met). Then there is the matter to
> > consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I bet that business
> > venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit from his
> > initial investment. I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> > about money.. what do you think?
>
> Sirius was his godfather... nothing to be legal guardian, his legal
> guardians are the dursleys. officially, sirius is nothing for Harry as
> always are godparents.
>
>
But to whom would Sirius have left his money? Harry.
Corinne Rainbow
legally it has to go to his family... so to his living cousins (for exemple
Mrs Malfoy) as long as he hasn't written on paper that he wanted Harry to
inheritate and anyway, in the real world he would have to pay a lot of money
to the state to inheritate from someone who is not his family.
In magic world, I don't know... and I am not sure that Harry even knows
where is the key to open Sirius gold in the bank
Ard Rhi
"Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> money too?
Unless Sirius left a valid document stating such, then no. Dumbledore would
see to it that the Ministry of Magic respected to such a document.
Especially that rather than let the recently shamed Malfoy family become
inheritors.
However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely go
with the Ministry.
This all hinges upon one detail, however. Any interested parties would have
to prove the death of Sirius.
> I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
> sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson
> he'd never met).
Although Dumbledore accepted the signature of Sirius, and Harry's parents
named him legal guardian, there is still the issue of whether or not any of
that was nullified when Sirius was convicted of murder. Harry WAS given to
the Dursleys and they became his legal guardians.
> Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
> bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
> from his initial investment.
Harry gave them the gold, he didn't really invest it. And it would be
interesting to see how the characters handle that relationship now. While
not as ambitious as Percy or money-conscious as Ron, the Weasley twins now
have a successful business that they can afford luxury items for themselves
and family from. Harry was a benefactor but Harry is also rich in his own
right, supposedly. So what's to say that Fred & George are now inclined to
be so generous back to him?
> I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> about money.. what do you think?
Harry will continue his education and likely have a fair amount of money
left over to go with his chosen job which will continue paying him. Beyond
that, hard to say. I figure him the type to live comfortably, but not
richly.
Ard Rhi
Mark Evans
> I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> money too? I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
Sirius might also have left money to the Tonks family, Lupin and
possibly the Weasleys. Don't know who would get the house, but the
portrait of Mrs Black would be best off going to Narcissa and Draco.
> sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson he'd never met).
Who is Harry's guardian now though?
DM
> "Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > money too?
>
> Unless Sirius left a valid document stating such, then no. Dumbledore would
> see to it that the Ministry of Magic respected to such a document.
> Especially that rather than let the recently shamed Malfoy family become
> inheritors.
The magical world may not depend on valid documents as they do in the muggle
world. The magical world may only require reliable witnesses to Sirius'
desires, which most likely would be to leave everything to Harry.
>
>
> However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
> Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely go
> with the Ministry.
That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys, who
give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in years 6
and 7.
>
>
> This all hinges upon one detail, however. Any interested parties would have
> to prove the death of Sirius.
>
> > I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> > supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
> > sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson
> > he'd never met).
>
> Although Dumbledore accepted the signature of Sirius, and Harry's parents
> named him legal guardian, there is still the issue of whether or not any of
> that was nullified when Sirius was convicted of murder. Harry WAS given to
> the Dursleys and they became his legal guardians.
Because of the ancient magic. Harry was protected while in the care of a blood
relative. Sirius was not a blood relative, only Petunia and Dudley are.
>
>
> > Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
> > bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
> > from his initial investment.
>
> Harry gave them the gold, he didn't really invest it. And it would be
> interesting to see how the characters handle that relationship now. While
> not as ambitious as Percy or money-conscious as Ron, the Weasley twins now
> have a successful business that they can afford luxury items for themselves
> and family from. Harry was a benefactor but Harry is also rich in his own
> right, supposedly. So what's to say that Fred & George are now inclined to
> be so generous back to him?
The Weasleys' seem to be honorable. I think they will consider Harry a silent
partner, whether Harry does or not.
>
>
> > I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> > about money.. what do you think?
>
> Harry will continue his education and likely have a fair amount of money
> left over to go with his chosen job which will continue paying him. Beyond
> that, hard to say. I figure him the type to live comfortably, but not
> richly.
I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would not be
surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some point,
aligned with Voldemort.
--
DM
---
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(O,O)
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---
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"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
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Ard Rhi
"DM" <dm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:400A9791...@aol.com...
> Ard Rhi wrote:
>
> > "Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > > money too?
> >
> > Unless Sirius left a valid document stating such, then no. Dumbledore
would
> > see to it that the Ministry of Magic respected to such a document.
> > Especially that rather than let the recently shamed Malfoy family become
> > inheritors.
>
> The magical world may not depend on valid documents as they do in the
muggle
> world. The magical world may only require reliable witnesses to Sirius'
> desires, which most likely would be to leave everything to Harry.
Unlikely given that we see certain documents like the permission form and
educational decrees do bear weight even in the magical world. If it were
left up to witnesses, everyone in the magical world would likely be after
Sirius fortunes claiming "Stubby Boardman" loved them.
>
> >
> >
> > However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
> > Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely
go
> > with the Ministry.
>
> That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys,
who
> give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in
years 6
> and 7.
Wouldn't really make much of a difference, I think. Harry would care less
about the wealth than the fact of losing Sirius. Malfoy is already capable
of flaunting what wealth he has in Harry's face. And none of the money in
the world makes up for what Malfoy will now deal with given his father being
a confirmed Death Eater.
>
> >
> >
> > This all hinges upon one detail, however. Any interested parties would
have
> > to prove the death of Sirius.
> >
> > > I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> > > supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
> > > sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson
> > > he'd never met).
> >
> > Although Dumbledore accepted the signature of Sirius, and Harry's
parents
> > named him legal guardian, there is still the issue of whether or not any
of
> > that was nullified when Sirius was convicted of murder. Harry WAS given
to
> > the Dursleys and they became his legal guardians.
>
> Because of the ancient magic. Harry was protected while in the care of a
blood
> relative. Sirius was not a blood relative, only Petunia and Dudley are.
I understand that, but regardless, the Dursleys are his legal guardians and
Sirius legal status of almost any kind is questionable. Dumbledore can
control Hogwarts and so let the permission slip through, but I doubt he can
pull the same miracle twice in regards to the Black estate.
>
> >
> >
> > > Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
> > > bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
> > > from his initial investment.
> >
> > Harry gave them the gold, he didn't really invest it. And it would be
> > interesting to see how the characters handle that relationship now.
While
> > not as ambitious as Percy or money-conscious as Ron, the Weasley twins
now
> > have a successful business that they can afford luxury items for
themselves
> > and family from. Harry was a benefactor but Harry is also rich in his
own
> > right, supposedly. So what's to say that Fred & George are now inclined
to
> > be so generous back to him?
>
> The Weasleys' seem to be honorable. I think they will consider Harry a
silent
> partner, whether Harry does or not.
Good chance of that. Especially as they named him such when discussing it in
front of Mundungus. However, money changes people. Ambition did it to Percy
and while it'd be a shame, lack of attention did it to Ron, I wouldn't be
surprised if money did the same for Fred & George.
On the off chance both sides wanted to share in the profits, they'd sill
have to hammer out a deal and even with friends, the twins don't seem
inclined to be more generous than they have to. It's business, after all.
Harry gets to continue his education, Fred & George bought the dress robes
for Ron as per Harry's request, and the twins also come through on making
people laugh as Harry wanted. So a bit too much leeway there as to how
profits should be divided.
> >
> > > I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> > > about money.. what do you think?
> >
> > Harry will continue his education and likely have a fair amount of money
> > left over to go with his chosen job which will continue paying him.
Beyond
> > that, hard to say. I figure him the type to live comfortably, but not
> > richly.
>
> I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would
not be
> surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some
point,
> aligned with Voldemort.
If they were aligned, it is doubtful Voldemort would've killed them as he
did. Too many variables like that.
> --
> DM
> ---
>
> ,_,
> (O,O)
> ( )
> -"-"-
>
> ---
> "RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
> "My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
>
> HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
> CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++
HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
>
Ard Rhi
DM
> -snip-
> >
> > That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys,
> who
> > give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in
> years 6
> > and 7.
>
> Wouldn't really make much of a difference, I think. Harry would care less
> about the wealth than the fact of losing Sirius. Malfoy is already capable
> of flaunting what wealth he has in Harry's face. And none of the money in
> the world makes up for what Malfoy will now deal with given his father being
> a confirmed Death Eater.
Not flaunting wealth, but Sirius' possessions. "Hey, Potter! We just had
Black's mansion demolished! And we burned his cloak and wand! And we found a
photo album with your parents in it! Too bad it's burned too."
>
> -snip-
> >
> > I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would
> not be
> > surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some
> point,
> > aligned with Voldemort.
>
> If they were aligned, it is doubtful Voldemort would've killed them as he
> did. Too many variables like that.
Not necessarily. Voldemort, at first, seemed willing to let Lily live.
We assume Voldemort first killed James. That could have been because James was
in the way, or because there was some vengeance involved. It's possible, imo,
that one of the Potters could have been aligned with Voldemort at some point,
but not necessarily at the end when Voldemort killed them.
I'm still considering Lupin's 'strange' voice when Harry mention he had heard
his dad's voice the night of the murders. I find the use of that particular
word to be a red flag. To me, it's almost as if Lupin didn't know (or expect)
James was to be there that night.
yak
I find it difficult to believe that Sirius didn't have a will. And I
doubt there is any sort of tax on inheritance in the magical world... In
fact, I have never heard mention of taxes of any kind. It's probably
whoever has the key has the money, and the key is either in Sirius' room
at 12 Grimmauld Place or beyond the veil.
RCLOVELY
>surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some
>point,
>aligned with Voldemort.
Now, that's just silly!
RC
Fish Eye no Miko
> I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous
> source.
James' parents?
I'm pretty sure JKR has said they inherited a lot of money
> I would not be surprised if we eventually find out one of
> Harry's parents were, at some point, aligned with
> Voldemort.
Oh, not this BS again...
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
Right now you are reading my .sig quote.
chacde3
DM wrote:
> Ard Rhi wrote:
>
>
>>"Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
>>>he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
>>>money too?
>>
>>Unless Sirius left a valid document stating such, then no. Dumbledore would
>>see to it that the Ministry of Magic respected to such a document.
>>Especially that rather than let the recently shamed Malfoy family become
>>inheritors.
>
>
> The magical world may not depend on valid documents as they do in the muggle
> world. The magical world may only require reliable witnesses to Sirius'
> desires, which most likely would be to leave everything to Harry.
>
>
>>
>>However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
>>Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely go
>>with the Ministry.
>
>
> That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys, who
> give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in years 6
> and 7.
I like that. But I see Sirius' estate going to the Ministry, resulting
in Fudge officially clearing is name from any convictions, and awarding
him the Order of Merlin, 1st Class. I believe that if there's one thing
Harry would value from Sirius, it would be something honorable, like the
OoM,FC, rather than inheritance.
>
>
>>
>>This all hinges upon one detail, however. Any interested parties would have
>>to prove the death of Sirius.
>>
>>
>>>I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
>>>supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
>>>sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson
>>>he'd never met).
>>
>>Although Dumbledore accepted the signature of Sirius, and Harry's parents
>>named him legal guardian, there is still the issue of whether or not any of
>>that was nullified when Sirius was convicted of murder. Harry WAS given to
>>the Dursleys and they became his legal guardians.
>
>
> Because of the ancient magic. Harry was protected while in the care of a blood
> relative. Sirius was not a blood relative, only Petunia and Dudley are.
>
>
>>
>>>Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
>>>bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
>>>from his initial investment.
>>
>>Harry gave them the gold, he didn't really invest it. And it would be
>>interesting to see how the characters handle that relationship now. While
>>not as ambitious as Percy or money-conscious as Ron, the Weasley twins now
>>have a successful business that they can afford luxury items for themselves
>>and family from. Harry was a benefactor but Harry is also rich in his own
>>right, supposedly. So what's to say that Fred & George are now inclined to
>>be so generous back to him?
>
>
> The Weasleys' seem to be honorable. I think they will consider Harry a silent
> partner, whether Harry does or not.
I think that since Harry's got enough money, if he were offered anything
by F&G, he'd tell them to just give it to Ron instead. Maybe they'll be
the guys to help support Ron when he goes to Auror school?
>
>
>>
>>>I suspect Harry will never have to worry
>>>about money.. what do you think?
>>
>>Harry will continue his education and likely have a fair amount of money
>>left over to go with his chosen job which will continue paying him. Beyond
>>that, hard to say. I figure him the type to live comfortably, but not
>>richly.
>
>
> I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would not be
> surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some point,
> aligned with Voldemort.
Doubt it. You've hear about how much James hates the Dark Arts. Lupin
said it himself when Harry asked him about James picking on Snape in school.
DM
You're just jealous because I have all the good ideas!
:P
--
DM
--
,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-
Blatantly stealing Frank Ney's idea of parody quotes:
"You mean, let me understand this ... cuz I ... maybe its me, maybe I'm a
little f**ked up maybe. I'm funny, how? Funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse
you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean
funny? Funny how? How am I funny?" - Goodfella Ron Weasley
Sirius Kase
yak <sp...@hormel.com> wrote:
Harry hasn't had the time nor the interest in becoming knowledgable on
wizarding law. How does the Mom finance itself? probably taxes of some
sort. Harry doesn't pay taxes except for maybe sales tax so I doubt
he'd know. He wasn't raised in the culture so he wouldn't have picked
things up by osmosis like Ron and he doesn't read for info like Hermione
so he wouldn't have picked it up that way either. When he subscribed to
the Dailly Prophet, he only scanned the front for news a bout Voldy's
return. he didn't peruse the whole paper and learn anything about the
culture.
Harry would only inherit from Sirius if he's mentioned in his will.
He's not a natural or adoptive relative. At this time, we have no way
of knowing the contents of sirius' will or even if it exists. If he
does, it would be a way for Rowling to give more neat wizard stuff to
Harry.
To address the original question, Harry has all the money he needs. If
he ever gets in a financial bind, Fred and George might help him out if
they don't go broke first. Not unless they are bigger jerks than they
appear to be.
--
Sirius Kase
"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > "DM" <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous
> > > source.
> >
> > James' parents?
> > I'm pretty sure JKR has said they inherited a lot of money
> >
> > > I would not be surprised if we eventually find out one of
> > > Harry's parents were, at some point, aligned with
> > > Voldemort.
> >
> > Oh, not this BS again...
>
> You're just jealous because I have all the good ideas!
No, you don't.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"Come on, fly to the rescue... then I'll shoot you right through your noble
intentions..."
-Captain James Hook, _Peter Pan_.
Corinne Rainbow
It's probably whoever has the key has the money, and
> the key is either in Sirius' room at 12 Grimmauld Place or beyond
> the veil.
To get the money you need the key and the number of the vault... not
everyone knows that and I am not sure that Harry remembers it
the key may be somewhere in Grimmauld Place, right... but where?
I doubt Harry would think about searching for it at least right now
And if it is beyond the veil, he won't be able to get it back...
DM
> "DM" <dm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:400AE712...@aol.com...
>
> > Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > > "DM" <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous
> > > > source.
> > >
> > > James' parents?
> > > I'm pretty sure JKR has said they inherited a lot of money
> > >
> > > > I would not be surprised if we eventually find out one of
> > > > Harry's parents were, at some point, aligned with
> > > > Voldemort.
> > >
> > > Oh, not this BS again...
> >
> > You're just jealous because I have all the good ideas!
>
> No, you don't.
>
> Catherine Johnson.
> -snipped the sig for pure evilness-
Stop following me around! What are you, like a deranged newsgroupie?
Damn it, if I want James and Lily to be Death Eaters, you can't stop me!
eggplant107
> I'm just wondering how much money Harry has.
I think Harry has lots and lots of money, more than he knows what to
do with, and now that Harry is popular again the Ministry will
probably do something to try to get back on Harry's good side, like
giving a posthumous pardon to Sirius Black. That will probably just
increase Harry's bitterness but it would make Sirius's Will a legal
document again. I'll but he gave everything he had to Harry, and that
includes Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place. If so Harry would be
Kreacher's new master; but Kreacher was an accomplice in Sirius's
murder. What should Harry do to Kreacher? He can't send him to
Azkaban, the jail has no guards; he can't set him free, he knows too
much. I think we all know what Harry would be strongly tempted to do
to Kreacher, and he may even do it too.
By the way, I wonder if Kreacher mortally wounded Buckbeak, the book
doesn't say.
Eggplant
Fish Eye no Miko
"eggplant107" <eggpl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a2f8b89.0401...@posting.google.com...
> smud...@yahoo.com (Zorch) wrote
>
> > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has.
>
> I think Harry has lots and lots of money, more than he
> knows what to do with,
I'm not so sure. See PoA: He's actually concerned about his money running
out. As I've said before, it seems to me that, if anything, a kid would
*over*estimate how much they have, not *under*estimate. Yes, it's possible
he has more then he realizes, but he has "little enough", at least in his
opinion, that he's concerned about it.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"*Don't* scare the cripple. My fight or flight reflex is very confused."
-Kevin Girardi, _Joan of Arcadia_.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> I'm just wondering how much money Harry has.
Rowling said somewhere (I don't remember where at the moment) that
there was enough to get Harry through Hogwarts. I would assume that
there is also enough for him to set up a home or something, but not
enough for him to live on for the rest of his life (he'll need to
get a real job).
> It says in the book that he inherited a small fortune from his
> parents.
And Rowling has, in an interview, disclosed that the money had come
to James as an inheritance as well.
> Did he inherit Sirius's money too?
[...]
That has been much speculated here ;-)
It is, I believe, clear that Sirius' wish would be that everything
should go to Harry and possibly Tonks and family. This aspect of the
magical community has, however, not been investigated previously
(beyond the 'son inheriting father' bit), so we don't really know if
it is possible for Sirius to bequeath everything to Harry, whether
such a will would be accepted by the authorities (Sirius was, after
all, an escaped convict) etc.
All in all there are, IMO, so many uncertainties involved that it is
impossible to predict which way it'll go.
> Then there is the matter to consider of Fred & George's joke shop. I
> bet that business venture will succeed, and net Harry a nice profit
> from his initial investment. I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> about money.. what do you think?
There is that, yes. I forgot about his investment in the above.
I don't know if it'll be enough for him to live on - I have a suspicion
that Rowling will let him have 'a real job' in the end (if she doesn't
kill him, of course ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe
And Reboot +++
-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
Sirius Kase
Mark Evans <m...@anacon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Zorch <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > money too? I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> > supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
>
> Sirius might also have left money to the Tonks family, Lupin and
> possibly the Weasleys. Don't know who would get the house, but the
> portrait of Mrs Black would be best off going to Narcissa and Draco.
I will go to whoever gets the house. It is permastuck to the wall, as
is the family tree tapestry. Unless they are willing to cut the walls
and risk bringing down the house....
>
> > sum of money (enough to buy a Firebolt for a godson he'd never met).
>
> Who is Harry's guardian now though?
Vernon and Petunia as always. But he no longer has a godfather.
Sirius Kase
rclo...@aol.com (RCLOVELY) wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me. Would you find it too big of a plot twist to
deal with?
Sirius Kase
> > > > > I would not be surprised if we eventually find out one of
> > > > > Harry's parents were, at some point, aligned with
> > > > > Voldemort.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, not this BS again...
> > >
> > > You're just jealous because I have all the good ideas!
> >
> > No, you don't.
> >
> > Catherine Johnson.
> > -snipped the sig for pure evilness-
>
> Stop following me around! What are you, like a deranged newsgroupie?
>
> Damn it, if I want James and Lily to be Death Eaters, you can't stop me!
> --
> DM
> --
Are you JKRowling? She's the only one around here with the power to
make J&L deatheaters.
DM
-snipped Sirius' sig for pure evilness too-
I was kidding with Fish Eye. Sheesh, you people take HP so seriously! I'm
trying to have some fun with it, pondering ideas and speculating about the
future. Is that so wrong?
I find it suspicious JKR is keeping James and/or Lily's occupation a secret
until book 6 or 7. Why? Were they spies for Voldemort? Against Voldemort?
Why can't we speculate as to why their occupation is a secret?
Mark Evans
> Ard Rhi wrote:
>
> > "Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > > money too?
> >
> > Unless Sirius left a valid document stating such, then no. Dumbledore would
> > see to it that the Ministry of Magic respected to such a document.
> > Especially that rather than let the recently shamed Malfoy family become
> > inheritors.
>
> The magical world may not depend on valid documents as they do in the muggle
> world. The magical world may only require reliable witnesses to Sirius'
> desires, which most likely would be to leave everything to Harry.
The magical world does have the idea of contracts, which may involve
documents. The difference is that the enforcement is by magic rather
than lawyers.
> >
> > However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
> > Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely go
> > with the Ministry.
>
> That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys, who
> give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in years 6
> and 7.
Why would the Malfoys have any greater claim than the Tonks? As escaped
prisoners the LeStranges might have difficulty making a claim on the
estate though.
Lord Of Absolute Darkness
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I really agree with that... i don't see anything wrong in
speculating...
In fact, i am sure book 6 and 7 will show us Harry who will go over
to the Dark Side, ron getting killed by Harry to save Hermione, and
neville kills Lord Thingy, and then harry comes back to the good
side, hes sorry for ron, and ends up marrying luna lovegood.
Neville will be engaged with Hermione (actually not joking here...)
sorry, did i spoil the next two books, didnt mean to :)
lol
"DM" <dm...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:400AFA7F...@aol.com...
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c
DM
>
>
> I really agree with that... i don't see anything wrong in
> speculating...
That's the spirit!
>
>
> In fact, i am sure book 6 and 7 will show us Harry who will go over
> to the Dark Side,
That would be really cool, but I think it'll be Hermione.
> ron getting killed by Harry to save Hermione,
No, cause Hermione turns dark, remember? So it'll be Ron getting killed
by Hermione to save Harry.
> and
> neville kills Lord Thingy,
Well, that might be since Neville could really be the one! ;)
> and then harry comes back to the good
> side, hes sorry for ron, and ends up marrying luna lovegood.
But Hermione, remember? And no, Hermione cannot marry Luna. She'll
marry Draco.
>
>
> Neville will be engaged with Hermione (actually not joking here...)
Good, because I was going to remind you it was HERMIONE who turns, kills
Ron and Marries Draco.
>
>
> sorry, did i spoil the next two books, didnt mean to :)
Not at all, I had speculated it before. Hope mine didn't spoil yours.
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snipping the whole cascade, though not for evilness ;-) >
> I was kidding with Fish Eye.
I for one did realise that (as soon as I saw it was you posting it ;-)
> Sheesh, you people take HP so seriously!
I interrupt here for a little 'Grook' (that's what he calls them) by
the Danish poet Piet Hein:
Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thoroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest
(Piet Hein, "The Eternal Twins" - original layout).
;-)
> I'm trying to have some fun with it, pondering ideas and speculating
> about the future. Is that so wrong?
I sometimes wonder how many potentially Nobel-prize winning ideas that
end up in the waste-paper basket just because they're 'too far out'.
Einstein never got the prize for the Theory of Relativity (he got it
for explaining the photoelectric effect), and he found quantum physics
utterly incomprehensible.
> I find it suspicious JKR is keeping James and/or Lily's occupation a
> secret until book 6 or 7. Why?
I'd like to know as well. We know now that they were in the original
Order of the Phoenix - could it have been this she referred to rather
than the source of their pay?
> Were they spies for Voldemort? Against Voldemort?
That they worked against Voldemort for the Order seems pretty well
established. I don't think we have any actual proof that none of them
had turned against the Order, but honestly, do you really think it's a
realistic possibility?
> Why can't we speculate as to why their occupation is a secret?
You know that, for me, you can speculate to your heart's content ;-)
It is, however, good to keep in mind that the more controversial a
suggestion / speculation is, the more careful should one be in
propounding it. Much textual evidence etc. to prove that it is at
least not contradicted by canon ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image
when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
-- Anne Lamott
Meghan Noecker
<voir_si...@dummy-address.com> wrote:
>
>To get the money you need the key and the number of the vault... not
>everyone knows that and I am not sure that Harry remembers it
>
If this is true, then how to Sirius buy the broom for Harry. He said
he used Harry's name, but had the money taken from his own vault. He
certainly didn't go in person. So, there must be more than one key to
the vault, and Harry's name has already been associated with it.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
DM
> DM wrote:
> -evil snip-
>
> > Were they spies for Voldemort? Against Voldemort?
>
> That they worked against Voldemort for the Order seems pretty well
> established. I don't think we have any actual proof that none of them
> had turned against the Order, but honestly, do you really think it's a
> realistic possibility?
Yes, I do! Why? Because what they did is a secret. The Order isn't a
secret, nor is good wizards fighting Dark Arts. Couple that with Snape's
(Remember, former Death Eater) hate for them... And don't forget the
debt... There is something going on there, some sort of link. Something
beyond school bullying.
One or both of Harry's parents may be linked to Voldemort, but, maybe when
Harry was born, turned. I'm not saying it's a certainty, just that it's a
possibility.
Meghan Noecker
>I'm still considering Lupin's 'strange' voice when Harry mention he had heard
>his dad's voice the night of the murders. I find the use of that particular
>word to be a red flag. To me, it's almost as if Lupin didn't know (or expect)
>James was to be there that night.
>--
Gee, I thought this was discussed already :)
Even if Lupin didn't expect James to be there, he still knows he was
since everybody knows he died that night. Where else did he think
James was all this time?
Back to the issue of his voice sounding strange, that was a
description from Harry's point of view. To me, it expressed emotion
over his best friend's last moments.
Meghan Noecker
>
>I was kidding with Fish Eye. Sheesh, you people take HP so seriously! I'm
>trying to have some fun with it, pondering ideas and speculating about the
>future. Is that so wrong?
>
It is when nobody else is allowed to ponder ideas and speculate.
Why is okay for you to bring up your ideas that many people disagree
with (and they have been fully discussed), but you attack others for
doing the same thing?
I don't have a problem at all with this particular topic. I just don't
understand why you call it fun when you are on another thread
insulting newbies for doing the exact same thing!
Bruja Traviesa
news:siriuskase-FFCF7...@news05.east.earthlink.net...
It would be a surprise to me if it turned out that either James or Lilly
were death eaters. Even if it turned out that Voldermorte were killing them
for revenge purposes, wouldn't it have been known that they were death
eaters? If I'm not mistaken, prior to Voldermorte losing his power, it
seemed like the death eaters were out in the open. I mean we knew that
Snape had been allied with Voldermorte, that Lucius Malfoy had been. It
wasn't until after Voldermorte lost his power that they had to go
underground. But of course, with J.K. one never knows. <Grin>
Bruja Traviesa
Who hopes making this observation didn't make this discussion any more
heated.
Meghan Noecker
>everyone knows that and I am not sure that Harry remembers it
>
I just thought of something else. Didn't Mrs. Weasley get money out of
Harry's vault to buy his books one year? I can't remember which year,
but it seemed like she purchased his supplies and handed him some
spending money as well. Did Harry give her the key?
DM
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:27:58 GMT, DM <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I was kidding with Fish Eye. Sheesh, you people take HP so seriously! I'm
> >trying to have some fun with it, pondering ideas and speculating about the
> >future. Is that so wrong?
> >
>
> It is when nobody else is allowed to ponder ideas and speculate.
>
> Why is okay for you to bring up your ideas that many people disagree
> with (and they have been fully discussed), but you attack others for
> doing the same thing?
>
> I don't have a problem at all with this particular topic. I just don't
> understand why you call it fun when you are on another thread
> insulting newbies for doing the exact same thing!
When have I ever attacked anyone for expressing their own speculations? When
have I insulted newbies?
DM
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:10:44 GMT, DM <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm still considering Lupin's 'strange' voice when Harry mention he had heard
> >his dad's voice the night of the murders. I find the use of that particular
> >word to be a red flag. To me, it's almost as if Lupin didn't know (or expect)
> >James was to be there that night.
> >--
>
> Gee, I thought this was discussed already :)
>
> Even if Lupin didn't expect James to be there, he still knows he was
> since everybody knows he died that night. Where else did he think
> James was all this time?
Well, since you snipped it out of context, I would like to mention that while the
above topic has been discussed, I mentioned it again as one of many different clues
that may (possibility) lead to my theory that there could be a connection between
one of the Potters and Lord Thingy.
And now, for pure evilness, I mention it yet again: Lupin used a "strange" voice,
which to me suggests he is surprised Harry heard his father's voice. Why is he
surprised?
Alex Clark
> . . . I suspect Harry will never have to worry
> about money.. what do you think?
He does seem to have a lot of money in the bank, yes. Gringott's, run
by goblins. Now I wonder which side they're on, and where the money
will end up.
Alex Clark
Mad lover trod limo (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Meghan Noecker
>
>When have I ever attacked anyone for expressing their own speculations? When
>have I insulted newbies?
>--
You're joking right? All the time!
You have a reputation for doing it, didn't you notice?
Also, you regularly refer to newbies as lazy, stupid, etc. You lump
them all together, so anybody not yet personally attacked by you is
afraid to post for fear of getting attacked.
DM
Care to C&P just one instance along with the message subjectline?
I think you have me confused with another poster. I never intentionally insult
anyone. Then again, I do quite frequent post drunk, so it's possible that I could
insult someone and not remember, but I don't think so.
--
DM
---
,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-
---
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
Meghan Noecker
>
>I think you have me confused with another poster. I never intentionally insult
>anyone. Then again, I do quite frequent post drunk, so it's possible that I could
>insult someone and not remember, but I don't think so.
>--
Nope, not confused. You've done a fair share of insulting. I'm not
sure why you don't recognize it as such.
Even your posts about lazy newbies implies that all newbies are lazy.
It is pretty clear that you hate ALL newbies, and you will jump them
the first second they say something you disagree with.
As far as posting drunk, maybe you shouldn't do that anymore. It
sounds like it may be happening more than you think.
Personally, I have only seen 4 people that I would rather not
participate since they are either annoying or argumentative. Overall,
I believe the group is very good. Of course, I'm not bothered by
people asking the same old questions. If I am interested in the topic,
I will see if something comes up that causes me to rethink my opinion
or add to it. And if it is something I don't care for, such as when is
the next book coming out, then I just hit delete.
Honestly, I think it is a lot easier to deal with unwanted subjects
here than in email. I have download the complete messages there
whether I want to read them or not, and it takes longer to go through
and delete the unwanted subjects before settling in to read the good
stuff. So, I just don't see it as a problem here.
Kish
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:44:41 GMT, DM <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I think you have me confused with another poster. I never intentionally insult
>>anyone. Then again, I do quite frequent post drunk, so it's possible that I could
>>insult someone and not remember, but I don't think so.
>>--
>
>
> Nope, not confused.
You do realize DM=/=Dragon Friend, right? I'm as confused by this as
DM. I can't remember her posting anything about newbies in particular,
nor does a Google search on DM newbie OR newbies turn anything up.
Meghan Noecker
Perhaps I am. If so, I greatly apologize.
At first, I thought they there were two different people, but the
posts from DM seem to be defensive like DF's posts. I took that to
mean that this is one person posting from two addresses, maybe one at
home and one at work.
I had actually read a bunch of the posts before noticing that they sad
DM and not DF, so they certainly felt the same in terms in style. It
was only when I saw the DMs in the reader that I went back and looked
at the addresses. And I just figured she had switched locations and
accounts. It can be really confusing when people never use their own
name or any name.
I'm sorry, I cannot currently reference the posts that would help me
to explain why I thought they were the same. They have not shown up
yet in google, and I have already deleted them off my reader.
Again, I am really sorry to have confused the two of you.Everything I
said was in reference to Dragon Friend.
Richard Eney
Sirius Kase <siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark Evans <m...@anacon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
OotP spoiler....
14
12
10
8
6
4
2
0
>> Sirius might also have left money to the Tonks family, Lupin and
>> possibly the Weasleys. Don't know who would get the house, but the
>> portrait of Mrs Black would be best off going to Narcissa and Draco.
>
>It will go to whoever gets the house. It is permastuck to the wall, as
>is the family tree tapestry. Unless they are willing to cut the walls
>and risk bringing down the house....
What would happen if you painted over the portrait with very thick
black paint? Maybe even magical paint, guaranteed to cover up
all previous layers permanently (and with soundproofing)?
If nothing else, she couldn't see anything through it so wouldn't
know whether anyone was out there.
Or, what about scraping the canvas? The _back_ is stuck to the wall,
but the paint on the front isn't. Even the top thickness of the canvas
could be scraped off, so only the back fibers were left.
I doubt very much that Mrs Black has another portrait somewhere to travel
to, and even though portrait images can move to other paintings in the
same building, didn't they get rid of most of the others? I doubt that
Phineas would let her move into his. But even if she does move, then
_that_ painting could be taken away, and if she goes to a spare portrait
of herself in, for instance, Malfoy's mansion, at least she'd be out of
there.
=Tamar
Mark Evans
> In article <78gqd1-...@willow.anacon.no-ip.org>,
> Mark Evans <m...@anacon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Zorch <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > > money too? I got the impression he would have since Sirius was
> > > supposedly his legal guardian, and I think Sirius had quite a large
> >
> > Sirius might also have left money to the Tonks family, Lupin and
> > possibly the Weasleys. Don't know who would get the house, but the
> > portrait of Mrs Black would be best off going to Narcissa and Draco.
>
> I will go to whoever gets the house. It is permastuck to the wall, as
> is the family tree tapestry. Unless they are willing to cut the walls
> and risk bringing down the house....
It's unlikely to fall down, Wizarding buildings tend to use magic to
stay up in the first place.
Trychydts
I would be greatly surprised if the question of Sirius's heritage came
up.
Rowling apperently did not bother with thinking over such things as
law, exonomy and politics of the wizarding world. The Ministry of
Magic is an anti-democratic subsystem of a democratic government: the
Minister of Magic writes the laws, and the wizarding community has no
real influence on the process. We don't even know how the Minister of
Magic is elected.
Gringotts is not really a bank in the usual sense; I really doubt that
they pay interest after the money they hold - they do not use it in
any way, it's just locked away in the vaults. We don't know how much
do you have to pay for the upkeep of the vault and how is it paid
(Harry's waited him for thirteen years). The books are quite
contradictory in the question of accessing the vault: somtimes it
seems that you actually need to present the key to take out money,
somtimes everybody can do this whom the owner of the vault allows it
(as it was mentioned before, Sirius ordered the Firebolt this way).
Neither way seems to be too secure - a key can be easily stolen, a
letter can be faked. By the way, even the value of the money
fluctuates much.
After all this, I will be really surprised if Rowling starts to bother
about the really complicated rules of inheritance. If Sirius is really
and finally dead, I think JKR will not bother about his vault any
more. These things just not important enough in these stories.
However, Sirius's house is now protected by the Fidelius charm, so if
Malfoy inhereted it, he would not be able to spot this. The key is
most likely in the house - I see no reason why Sirius should brought
it with him to a fight.
Trychydts
LadyRayden
> Ard Rhi wrote:
>
> > "Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > > money too?
> >
> I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would not be
> surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some point,
> aligned with Voldemort.
> DM
> ---
>
> ,_,
> (O,O)
> ( )
> -"-"-
>
> ---
> "RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
> "My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
>
> HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
> CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++ HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
<de-lurking for first time ever>
How can Harry's parent's be aligned with Voldermort if Lily was a known Muggle-born?
DM
> DM <dm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<400A9791...@aol.com>...
> > Ard Rhi wrote:
> >
> > > "Zorch" <smud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:25e327e5.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > > > I'm just wondering how much money Harry has. It says in the book that
> > > > he inherited a small fortune from his parents. Did he inherit Sirius's
> > > > money too?
> > >
> > <snip>
> > I suspect the Potters' wealth came from an unscrupulous source. I would not be
> > surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some point,
> > aligned with Voldemort.
> >
>
> <de-lurking for first time ever>
>
> How can Harry's parent's be aligned with Voldermort if Lily was a known Muggle-born?
Voldemort himself is a mixed blood. I'm not saying it's Lily, nor am I saying one of
his parents were definitely aligned with Voldemort. I'm just saying that it's one of
many possibilities we should consider.
BKaplan104
>>surprised if we eventually find out one of Harry's parents were, at some
>>point,
>>aligned with Voldemort.
>
That's completely preposterous. But it's
obvious Harry is *very* wealthy - I was
pretty astonished, myself, in movie #1.
Sirius Kase
dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
This would be similar to what they do now, cover the painting with a
curtain. She can still hear and somehow get uncovered (by Kreacher?).
And for credibillity reasons, you should be very careful about
specifying a new magical solution for the express purpose of solving
this problem. Somehow it works better to invent a magical problem such
as permasticking than to invent the perfect solution to that problem.
>
> Or, what about scraping the canvas? The _back_ is stuck to the wall,
> but the paint on the front isn't. Even the top thickness of the canvas
> could be scraped off, so only the back fibers were left.
That might work, and if it does, you haven't created any new magic
process that we must accept. But, can you imagine the ruckus she would
make while being scraped?
>
> I doubt very much that Mrs Black has another portrait somewhere to travel
> to, and even though portrait images can move to other paintings in the
> same building, didn't they get rid of most of the others? I doubt that
> Phineas would let her move into his. But even if she does move, then
> _that_ painting could be taken away, and if she goes to a spare portrait
> of herself in, for instance, Malfoy's mansion, at least she'd be out of
> there.
Yeah, convincing her to move would be the simplest in my opinion.
Trickery may be involved, but nothing incredible.
>
> =Tamar
--
Sirius Kase
"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Sirius Kase
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:12:14 +0100, "Corinne Rainbow"
> <voir_si...@dummy-address.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >To get the money you need the key and the number of the vault... not
> >everyone knows that and I am not sure that Harry remembers it
> >
>
> If this is true, then how to Sirius buy the broom for Harry. He said
> he used Harry's name, but had the money taken from his own vault. He
> certainly didn't go in person. So, there must be more than one key to
> the vault, and Harry's name has already been associated with it.
When he placed his order, he included the key or a copy of it.
Sirius Kase
"Bruja Traviesa" <brujatr...@hotm1ail.comeoffit> wrote:
The Death Eaters are a secret organization. I won't list all the
evidence, but it seems clear to me that Rowling is modeling them on the
general characteristics of secret organizations.
The Mom knew they existed, but the identities of the members was kept
hideen. Prosecution of individuals for being members was very
difficult. that is why Malfoy walked free and Sirius went to prison.
BTW, DM made a strong statement in jest and I felt entitled to make an
equally strong statement in reply.
While, it is true that only Rowling create cannon, any fanfic writer
can make the Potter's deatheaters in their alternative universe.
Sirius Kase
This is evil to bring up a topic so recently discussed. Too bad you
aren't a newbie or DF would have your hide roasted.
To make a quick reply, the fact that his voice was strange doesn't imply
that he was surprised that James was there, he may simply have been
surprised that Harry mentioned it. He was not expecting it. And this is
only one possibility. It is also possible that he wasn't surprised at
all, just feeling emotional and trying to hide it from Harry.
Sirius Kase
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:12:14 +0100, "Corinne Rainbow"
> <voir_si...@dummy-address.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >To get the money you need the key and the number of the vault... not
> >everyone knows that and I am not sure that Harry remembers it
> >
>
> I just thought of something else. Didn't Mrs. Weasley get money out of
> Harry's vault to buy his books one year? I can't remember which year,
> but it seemed like she purchased his supplies and handed him some
> spending money as well. Did Harry give her the key?
>
probably. It appears that whoever possesses the key and knows the vault
number has access. The goblins appear to keep the identity of the owner
a secret.
Sirius Kase
Trychydts <ba...@ludens.elte.hu> wrote:
> Hello!
>
>
> I would be greatly surprised if the question of Sirius's heritage came
> up.
>
> Rowling apperently did not bother with thinking over such things as
> law, exonomy and politics of the wizarding world. The Ministry of
> Magic is an anti-democratic subsystem of a democratic government: the
> Minister of Magic writes the laws, and the wizarding community has no
> real influence on the process. We don't even know how the Minister of
> Magic is elected.
You don't know any of this because Harry doesn't know. You can't just
assume that the Mom isn't a democratic system. It hasn't been show not
to be.
>
> Gringotts is not really a bank in the usual sense; I really doubt that
> they pay interest after the money they hold - they do not use it in
> any way, it's just locked away in the vaults. We don't know how much
> do you have to pay for the upkeep of the vault and how is it paid
> (Harry's waited him for thirteen years).
Gringotts may have more than one type of vault, just like an ordinary
bank has more than one kind of account. Just because we don't know
something doesn't mean we can assume that one particular option is
correct.
> The books are quite
> contradictory in the question of accessing the vault: somtimes it
> seems that you actually need to present the key to take out money,
> somtimes everybody can do this whom the owner of the vault allows it
> (as it was mentioned before, Sirius ordered the Firebolt this way).
> Neither way seems to be too secure - a key can be easily stolen, a
> letter can be faked. By the way, even the value of the money
> fluctuates much.
Sirius's account may allow checks to be written against his vault. Or
he may have sent his key which was returned or a copy which was disposed
of. Or maybe his "key" was a password rather than a chunk of metal.
>
> After all this, I will be really surprised if Rowling starts to bother
> about the really complicated rules of inheritance. If Sirius is really
> and finally dead, I think JKR will not bother about his vault any
> more. These things just not important enough in these stories.
Rowling has never tried to tell us more than Harry himself knows. We
will only know details of law if Harry somehow becomes much more
interested in such. He tends not to get interested in the details until
they have a direct bearing on him.
>
> However, Sirius's house is now protected by the Fidelius charm, so if
> Malfoy inhereted it, he would not be able to spot this. The key is
> most likely in the house - I see no reason why Sirius should brought
> it with him to a fight.
>
>
> Trychydts
--
DM
Lol, I have a Dragon flame resistant cloak!
>
>
> To make a quick reply, the fact that his voice was strange doesn't imply
> that he was surprised that James was there, he may simply have been
> surprised that Harry mentioned it. He was not expecting it. And this is
> only one possibility. It is also possible that he wasn't surprised at
> all, just feeling emotional and trying to hide it from Harry.
This is true, but I just can't help feeling it means something. Some things just
send up a red flag for me and this is one of them.
--
DM
---
,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-
---
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++ HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
Li Ailian
"Meghan Noecker" <frie...@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote in message
news:buffv7$civ$0...@216.145.17.196...
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:25:20 GMT, Kish <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Meghan Noecker wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:44:41 GMT, DM <dm...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I think you have me confused with another poster. I never
intentionally insult
> >>>anyone. Then again, I do quite frequent post drunk, so it's possible
that I could
> >>>insult someone and not remember, but I don't think so.
> >>>--
> >>
> >>
> >> Nope, not confused.
> >
> >You do realize DM=/=Dragon Friend, right? I'm as confused by this as
> >DM. I can't remember her posting anything about newbies in particular,
> >nor does a Google search on DM newbie OR newbies turn anything up.
> >
> >
>
>
> Perhaps I am. If so, I greatly apologize.
>
> At first, I thought they there were two different people, but the
> posts from DM seem to be defensive like DF's posts. I took that to
> mean that this is one person posting from two addresses, maybe one at
> home and one at work.
>
> I had actually read a bunch of the posts before noticing that they sad
> DM and not DF, so they certainly felt the same in terms in style. It
> was only when I saw the DMs in the reader that I went back and looked
> at the addresses. And I just figured she had switched locations and
> accounts. It can be really confusing when people never use their own
> name or any name.
Considering that DM uses "DM" and Dragon Friend uses "Dragon Friend" in the
headers (as well as when signing posts), I don't see how one can mix the
two, unless one always thinks of Dragon Friend as merely "DF".
I personally find 99% of DM's posts to be absolutely hilarious and never
found them to be similar to Dragon Friend's, especially in style (what
strikes out most is that Dragon Friend has a tendency to [over]use ellipses
in her posts, as well as a completely different [and shorter] signature). If
anything, I was convinced that Dragon Friend == Fatwa Sam. Oops! Anyway.
ailian
Bruja Traviesa
i
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d
o
n
o
t
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a
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t
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e
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.
"Sirius Kase" <siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Bruja Traviesa" <brujatr...@hotm1ail.comeoffit> wrote:
>
> > "Sirius Kase" <siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:>>
I'm not saying they're not a secret organization. I'm going to have to
reread the second book again, because I was left with the impression that
they only became a secret organization after Voldermorte lost his power.
>The Mom knew they existed, but the identities of the members was kept
> hideen. Prosecution of individuals for being members was very
> difficult. that is why Malfoy walked free and Sirius went to prison.>
One of the reasons I've thought the death eaters went underground after
Voldermorte loses his powers, is that when he returns, he berates them for
having abandoned him and for their failure to help him, while he's wandering
around powerless, looking for a body.
>BTW, DM made a strong statement in jest and I felt entitled to make an
> equally strong statement in reply.>
I realized after that the statements were in jest.
Bruja Traviesa
Alex Clark
> Lord Of Absolute Darkness wrote:
. . .
> > In fact, i am sure book 6 and 7 will show us Harry who will go over
> > to the Dark Side,
>
> That would be really cool, but I think it'll be Hermione.
It will be all three. They'll think that the Death Eaters are up to
something that has to be stopped, but actually they'll be trying to
stop the Order from doing something to save the world. In the end,
they'll go over because they figure that they're usually opposing the
wrong people anyway, so they'll do more good on the side of evil.
> > ron getting killed by Harry to save Hermione,
>
> No, cause Hermione turns dark, remember? So it'll be Ron getting killed
> by Hermione to save Harry.
No, they'll kill Dumbledore because they mistook him for Voldemort.
> > and
> > neville kills Lord Thingy,
>
> Well, that might be since Neville could really be the one! ;)
He will kill Voldything and his new minions Harry, Ron, and Hermione.
> > and then harry comes back to the good
> > side, hes sorry for ron, and ends up marrying luna lovegood.
>
> But Hermione, remember? And no, Hermione cannot marry Luna. She'll
> marry Draco.
No, Luna marries Draco, because if everyone thinks Draco's evil then
it can't be so, and besides, every bad man needs a good woman to save
him.
> > Neville will be engaged with Hermione (actually not joking here...)
>
> Good, because I was going to remind you it was HERMIONE who turns, kills
> Ron and Marries Draco.
No, Neville marries Parvati, but within a year he is seduced by
Lavender, so Parvati leaves him for Draco's long-lost evil twin. Cho
steals Dean from Ginny, who has just gotten pregnant with his
"love-child" after a long on-again, off-again relationship. Then Ginny
gets into a "May-December" romance with Stubby Boardman. And the new
DADA teacher turns out to be Voldemort's evil clone. The new name of
the series will be As the Wizarding World Turns.
The big question will be: "Who A-K'd Draco?"
Alex Clark
Tom, a dim lord lover (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Troels Forchhammer
"DM" <dm...@aol.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
[Lily and James Potter:]
>> That they worked against Voldemort for the Order seems pretty well
>> established. I don't think we have any actual proof that none of them
>> had turned against the Order, but honestly, do you really think it's a
>> realistic possibility?
>
> Yes, I do! Why? Because what they did is a secret. The Order isn't a
> secret,
It is, IMO, quite possible that Rowling's reluctance to answer the
question is due to her wish to protect the fact that they were members of
the Order - both the chats I know of that address this question are from
2000, and at which point no one (except Rowling, of course) had any idea
what "The Order of the Phoenix" might be (the earliest result on the
Quick-Quote-Quill for "Order of the Phoenix" is from 20 Oct. 2000 - the
day after one of the chats - I believe the title of book five was
disclosed some time during the autumn of 2000).
The AOL chat is from 2000-10-19:
Q04: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?
JKR: Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going
to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of
money, so he didn't need a well paid profession. You'll find
out more about both Harry's parents later.
<http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm>
And the first Scholastic chat from 2000-02-03:
Q: What did the Potter parents do for a living before Voldemort killed
them?
JKR: I'm sorry to keep saying this, but I can't tell you because it's
important to a later plot. But you will find out later!
<http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm>
I don't claim that this secret really is their participation in the Order,
but especially the part from the AOL chat about James not needing "a
well-paid profession" makes me think it likely.
> nor is good wizards fighting Dark Arts.
But /if/ my interpretation of the chat answers is correct, then the /how/
of them fighting the Dark Lord would be secret.
> Couple that with Snape's (Remember, former Death Eater) hate for them...
Snape's hatred seems to stem from their school days - before he became a
Death Eater; and it was apparently reciprocated by James.
> And don't forget the debt... There is something going on there, some
> sort of link. Something beyond school bullying.
I don't think that the hatred itself goes beyond their school rivalry,
Snape's harangues against James all seem to come back to the accusation of
arrogance, which, to me, indicates that it has its basis in their school
days.
The bond that Snape's life-debt should have created with James seems in
some way to be resolved by Snape's protection of Harry (it has been
speculated that it also had something to do with Snape's decision to turn
against Voldemort), though there might of course be more to it.
> One or both of Harry's parents may be linked to Voldemort, but, maybe
> when Harry was born, turned. I'm not saying it's a certainty, just that
> it's a possibility.
I feel convinced that Lily would never follow Voldemort - "was in
Gryffindor (/naturally/)" (my emphasis). The way Rowling has described the
Gryffindor virtues, I can't see how someone who was naturally in
Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/ Voldemort.
In the end, however, all I can offer are speculations which aren't
basically different from yours - there is very little evidence either way,
and no proof at all.
As the Danish poet Piet Hein puts it:
My adversary's argument
is not alone malevolent
but ignorant to boot.
He hasn't even got the sense
to state his so-called evidence
in terms I can refute.
(Piet Hein, "The Untenable Argument")
;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of
payment draws near."
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Trychydts
<siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Rowling apperently did not bother with thinking over such things as
>> law, exonomy and politics of the wizarding world. The Ministry of
>> Magic is an anti-democratic subsystem of a democratic government: the
>> Minister of Magic writes the laws, and the wizarding community has no
>> real influence on the process. We don't even know how the Minister of
>> Magic is elected.
>
>You don't know any of this because Harry doesn't know. You can't just
>assume that the Mom isn't a democratic system. It hasn't been show not
>to be.
Well, not exactly. In the Muggle world, laws are accepted by elected
representatives, who at the same time supervise the Government in some
way. The Ministry of Magic "belongs" under the Muggle Prime Minister
while its existence is in secret.
Cornelius Fudge can give out regulations without control, it was
evindent in the Order of Phoenix. The Daily Prophet was also
controlled by the Ministry of Magic - it would be unaccaptable in the
Muggle world. If it turned out that the Government forbade the major
newspaper giving out important information there would be a huge
scandal. In the books there happens nothing.
>> Gringotts is not really a bank in the usual sense; I really doubt that
>> they pay interest after the money they hold - they do not use it in
>> any way, it's just locked away in the vaults. We don't know how much
>> do you have to pay for the upkeep of the vault and how is it paid
>> (Harry's waited him for thirteen years).
>
>Gringotts may have more than one type of vault, just like an ordinary
>bank has more than one kind of account. Just because we don't know
>something doesn't mean we can assume that one particular option is
>correct.
I don't like to assume anything that isn't explicitly written down.
However, vaults and accounts cannot be compared. An account hold money
only virtually, and when you need cash, the bank gives it to you from
a central pool. A vault holds the money physically and it's personally
you who takes the money out. So lending it to someone else is
virtually impossible - but in the Muggle world, that's the whole point
of a bank. It holds your money, lends it to someone else and shares
the interest with you.
It also seems really unlikely that there is fee for a upkeep - the
Weaslys kept very little money in it. If they had to pay for even a
vault, they would most likely give it up.
>> The books are quite
>> contradictory in the question of accessing the vault: somtimes it
>> seems that you actually need to present the key to take out money,
>> somtimes everybody can do this whom the owner of the vault allows it
>> (as it was mentioned before, Sirius ordered the Firebolt this way).
>> Neither way seems to be too secure - a key can be easily stolen, a
>> letter can be faked. By the way, even the value of the money
>> fluctuates much.
>
>Sirius's account may allow checks to be written against his vault. Or
>he may have sent his key which was returned or a copy which was disposed
>of. Or maybe his "key" was a password rather than a chunk of metal.
However, it is unlikely in that paticular situation. Sirius writes it
in his letter in the end of The Prisoner of Azkaban:
"I used your name but told them to take the money gold from
Gringotts vault seven hundred and eleven - my own."
It is quite clear that it was not even the bank who managed the
transaction, it was the broom store itself. What stops them to take
out all the gold? After a few owl-post orders and much too many person
would know the password or have a spare key.
Of course, with some effort, you could surely find out some way which
is safe and working - maybe Sirius used his PGP-signature and the
shopkeeper showed the encoded message to the goblins whe decoded it
with his public key (sorry for the joke). I just say that these things
- just like the actual value of the money - doesn't seem important to
Rowling, so I don't think that she suddenly starts to bother with
Sirius's heritage.
>> After all this, I will be really surprised if Rowling starts to bother
>> about the really complicated rules of inheritance. If Sirius is really
>> and finally dead, I think JKR will not bother about his vault any
>> more. These things just not important enough in these stories.
>
>Rowling has never tried to tell us more than Harry himself knows. We
>will only know details of law if Harry somehow becomes much more
>interested in such. He tends not to get interested in the details until
>they have a direct bearing on him.
It is, of course, true. However, the dedicated reader can find much
scattered information. Even in this case. Gringotts must be an
independent institution, if no Auror can monitor who and why takes out
money form vault 711. (If they could, they would have surley found
Sirius in Hogsmeade.)
JKR is a very good writer who has an excellent story in her bag - but
I think it's unevitable that she did not bother much with such small
details of her universe.
Trychydts
Meghan Noecker
wrote:
>Considering that DM uses "DM" and Dragon Friend uses "Dragon Friend" in the
>headers (as well as when signing posts), I don't see how one can mix the
>two, unless one always thinks of Dragon Friend as merely "DF".
>
Well, until yesterday, I did think they were seperate, but when some
of DM's posts in the Dragon Friend thread got me thinking they were
the same person, just using a different email address. I know of many
people in different newsgroups who post from one account during the
day and a different account in the evening.
I went back at the posts to look at them at again, but
they really seemed like the same person. When I read the posts in the
Dargon Friend thread, I was just going from one to the next, not
reading who they were from. And I never guessed for a second that they
were not from DF. It was only when I got to this thread, that I
noticed they said DM, and then I was wondering. I guess I should have
asked first. But I really thought it was DF with a different address.
Toon
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.dk> wrote:
>
>> One or both of Harry's parents may be linked to Voldemort, but, maybe
>> when Harry was born, turned. I'm not saying it's a certainty, just that
>> it's a possibility.
No, because they can't have thriced defied him, if one turned when
Harry was born. So unless they happened within 9 months, they clearly
fought against him.
>I feel convinced that Lily would never follow Voldemort - "was in
>Gryffindor (/naturally/)" (my emphasis). The way Rowling has described the
>Gryffindor virtues, I can't see how someone who was naturally in
>Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/ Voldemort.
Peter Pettigrew.
Helmut P. Einfalt
>> I can't see how someone who was
>> naturally in Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/
>> Voldemort.
>
> Peter Pettigrew.
Seems the Sorting Hat isn't infallible after all...
Helmut
--
All typos Š My Knotty Fingers Ltd. Capacity Dept.
Elisa Francesca Roselli
Corinne Rainbow wrote:
> and anyway, in the real world he would have to pay a lot of money
> to the state to inheritate from someone who is not his family.
> In magic world, I don't know... and I am not sure that Harry even knows
Actually, ruining people for the crime of leaving money outside their family is
a French particularity. In the USA and the UK, you can leave your money to
whomever you please, without any special penalty.
EFR
Hoping to die elsewhere than in Ile de France
Stefan Seth
>>> I can't see how someone who was naturally in Gryffindor could do
>>> anything but fight /against/ Voldemort.
>>
>> Peter Pettigrew.
>
> Seems the Sorting Hat isn't infallible after all...
Seems Peter wasn't in Gryffindor at all ...
(Faq-site still down, so I may post this. ;-)
--
Stefan
DM
No, we are not the same person, not even close. If you had bothered to read a
selection of my posts, instead of jumping to conclusions, I think you would have
notice I do not intentionally insult anyone.
Sirius Kase
Stefan Seth <news_...@arcor.de> wrote:
or maybe he just wasn't a natural fit. The hat may have set a record
length if time sitting on his head before deciding his modicum of
bravery combined with his total lack of anything of value to the other
houses....
Lord Of Absolute Darkness
"Alex Clark" <alexb...@pennswoods.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:92a04f0a.04011...@posting.google.com...
Troels Forchhammer
>
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:12:20 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> One or both of Harry's parents may be linked to Voldemort, but, maybe
>>> when Harry was born, turned. I'm not saying it's a certainty, just that
>>> it's a possibility.
>
> No, because they can't have thriced defied him, if one turned when
> Harry was born. So unless they happened within 9 months, they clearly
> fought against him.
Good point.
> >I feel convinced that Lily would never follow Voldemort - "was in
> >Gryffindor (/naturally/)" (my emphasis). The way Rowling has described the
> >Gryffindor virtues, I can't see how someone who was naturally in
> >Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/ Voldemort.
>
> Peter Pettigrew.
Who /may/ have been in Gryffindor (there is still, to my knowledge, no
canonical proof of which house he belonged to), and who, in any case,
would not be a natural Gryffindor (it would not be obvious).
Bojan Bugarin
following:
> The Ministry of Magic "belongs" under the Muggle Prime Minister
> while its existence is in secret.
Interesting... what makes you say that?
In PoA there were protests because Fudge informed the Muggle PM that
Black escaped. This indicates to me that the MoM doesn't have frequent
contacts with the Muggle government.
My impression is that, except for it's name ("Ministry"), the MoM
doesn't have any connection whatsoever with the Muggle authorities.
(Possibly they have some sort of communication in situations like
Sirius's escape or when dealing with Muggleborns) The MoM is
practically the Wizarding government and it's departments are the
equivalents of the ministries every Muggle government has.
I don't know why JKR decided to name the MoM "Ministry" but if it
really is a "subsystem" of the Muggle government, then it would make
wizards too dependent on Muggles.
> Cornelius Fudge can give out regulations without control, it was
> evindent in the Order of Phoenix. The Daily Prophet was also
> controlled by the Ministry of Magic - it would be unaccaptable in the
> Muggle world. If it turned out that the Government forbade the major
> newspaper giving out important information there would be a huge
> scandal. In the books there happens nothing.
Let's not forget that it looks as though the Wizarding Community lives
in an old-fashioned society and it wouldn't be fair to compare them to
today's standards. If we compared them to the standards which were
present in the 19th century, the way MoM works would be a great
progress.
One of the things that would also be unacceptable in today's Muggle
democracies is the fact that the Minister is also a member of the
Wizengamot. Someone who has the executive power cannot perform
jurisdiction.
> Gringotts must be an independent institution,
> if no Auror can monitor who and why takes out money form vault 711.
Considering that Gringotts is run by Goblins and not Wizards and that
they're apparently not an exclusively British institution (they have a
bank in Egypt), I don't think the MoM has a large authority over them.
--
Bojan Bugarin
"Bad spellers of the world Untie!"
Sirius Kase
"Bruja Traviesa" <brujatr...@hotm1ail.comeoffit> wrote:
> I'm not saying they're not a secret organization. I'm going to have to
> reread the second book again, because I was left with the impression that
> they only became a secret organization after Voldermorte lost his power.
>
> >The Mom knew they existed, but the identities of the members was kept
> > hideen. Prosecution of individuals for being members was very
> > difficult. that is why Malfoy walked free and Sirius went to prison.>
>
> One of the reasons I've thought the death eaters went underground after
> Voldermorte loses his powers, is that when he returns, he berates them for
> having abandoned him and for their failure to help him, while he's wandering
> around powerless, looking for a body.
I think that they were already underground. But when Voldy lost his
powers, they essentially disbanded. A loyal group would have come to
the aid of their leader whether or not they were underground. They
could have looked for him even while being a secret organization.
>
> >BTW, DM made a strong statement in jest and I felt entitled to make an
> > equally strong statement in reply.>
>
> I realized after that the statements were in jest.
sometimes that's not easy to do in a text forum. ;-)
Sirius Kase
Trychydts <ba...@ludens.elte.hu> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:59:37 GMT, Sirius Kase
> <siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Rowling apperently did not bother with thinking over such things as
> >> law, exonomy and politics of the wizarding world. The Ministry of
> >> Magic is an anti-democratic subsystem of a democratic government: the
> >> Minister of Magic writes the laws, and the wizarding community has no
> >> real influence on the process. We don't even know how the Minister of
> >> Magic is elected.
> >
> >You don't know any of this because Harry doesn't know. You can't just
> >assume that the Mom isn't a democratic system. It hasn't been show not
> >to be.
>
> Well, not exactly. In the Muggle world, laws are accepted by elected
> representatives, who at the same time supervise the Government in some
> way. The Ministry of Magic "belongs" under the Muggle Prime Minister
> while its existence is in secret.
The MoM exists mostly to hide the existance magic from the muggles. So
the muggles can't know about it without a few exemptions such as
families of wizards and the PM. So, muggles in general do not choose
the officers of the MoM. But, they could be chosen by a democratic
process by the wizards who they govern. Harry being a kid, doesn't
vote, and being uninterested, hasn't found out about it himself, so we
wouldn't know.
While officially the Minister of Magic may be beneath the PM,
unofficially he is running a parallel government. I doubt the PM can
control the MoM if it doesn't want him to. It is more likely that they
could influence the PM.
>
> Cornelius Fudge can give out regulations without control, it was
> evindent in the Order of Phoenix. The Daily Prophet was also
> controlled by the Ministry of Magic - it would be unaccaptable in the
> Muggle world. If it turned out that the Government forbade the major
> newspaper giving out important information there would be a huge
> scandal. In the books there happens nothing.
An executive in most organizations can issue orders to entities under
his authority. The question that Rowling was raising is does that
authority extend to the schools? Again, does the executives authority
extend to the press? Definitely not in countries that have a free
press. apparently it isn't so definite with the schools. I'm not
British, but I gather that Rowling was basing this on a real
controversy, hopefully not quite this extreme.
>
>
> I don't like to assume anything that isn't explicitly written down.
> However, vaults and accounts cannot be compared. An account hold money
> only virtually, and when you need cash, the bank gives it to you from
> a central pool. A vault holds the money physically and it's personally
> you who takes the money out. So lending it to someone else is
> virtually impossible - but in the Muggle world, that's the whole point
> of a bank. It holds your money, lends it to someone else and shares
> the interest with you.
Gringott's might do this with some of it's accounts. We only know how
Harry's works. If you kept your money in a private vault at your bank,
yours would work the same way. But then, you would forgo the
opportunity to earn interest and some of the convenience that comes from
having a commingled account with all the money in the main vault.
>
> It also seems really unlikely that there is fee for a upkeep - the
> Weaslys kept very little money in it. If they had to pay for even a
> vault, they would most likely give it up.
Now you are just speculating. I'd argue the other way since Gringott's
must make money some how. It wouldn't rent out vaults for free. I
would find that to be unlikely.
>
>
> However, it is unlikely in that paticular situation. Sirius writes it
> in his letter in the end of The Prisoner of Azkaban:
>
> "I used your name but told them to take the money gold from
> Gringotts vault seven hundred and eleven - my own."
>
> It is quite clear that it was not even the bank who managed the
> transaction, it was the broom store itself. What stops them to take
> out all the gold? After a few owl-post orders and much too many person
> would know the password or have a spare key.
This is exactly analogous to Sirius writing a check to the broom store
that entitles the broom store to get a particular amount of money from
the bank. That's all a check or a bank draft is, a written letter
authorizing someone to get money from your account if they present it to
the bank. they can't take out all your money because they are nice
enough not modify what you wrote down as the amount. Goblins are
probably very good at catcing forgeries.
>
> Of course, with some effort, you could surely find out some way which
> is safe and working - maybe Sirius used his PGP-signature and the
> shopkeeper showed the encoded message to the goblins whe decoded it
> with his public key (sorry for the joke). I just say that these things
> - just like the actual value of the money - doesn't seem important to
> Rowling, so I don't think that she suddenly starts to bother with
> Sirius's heritage.
She may have worked it out and decided that it didn't belong in the
story. She claims to have worked out a lot of stuff that doesn't get
into the books. If Harry doesn't know, then we won't know. Harry
doesn't think about this sort of thing, so he won't know unless he must
know or someone insists on telling him.
> >Rowling has never tried to tell us more than Harry himself knows. We
> >will only know details of law if Harry somehow becomes much more
> >interested in such. He tends not to get interested in the details until
> >they have a direct bearing on him.
>
> It is, of course, true. However, the dedicated reader can find much
> scattered information.
You are right. didn't mean to oversimply. Sometimes, Rowling drops
hints about things so that we do know things that Harry doesn't. But,
she still isn't trying to write a complete text on how wizarding
institutions work. It just isn't necessary. Not that it wouldn't be of
interest to some of us. Maybe someday we can persuade her to write
about it. But first, she has to get this Harry story out.
> Even in this case. Gringotts must be an
> independent institution, if no Auror can monitor who and why takes out
> money form vault 711. (If they could, they would have surley found
> Sirius in Hogsmeade.)
Right, it is run by goblins, not wizards. And we know from Binn's class
that goblins are a proud race that does not permit itself to be
subordinate to wizards. They will cooperate with wizards when it is in
their interest to do so. Sirius escape is not a banking issue, so they
don't feel morally, ethically, or fiducially responsible to help out.
>
> JKR is a very good writer who has an excellent story in her bag - but
> I think it's unevitable that she did not bother much with such small
> details of her universe.
The books are big enough already and she says her notes are even bigger.
she gets to choose what to tell us and she gets to choose what parts of
the world to design in detail. Whether or not she knows how Gringott's
work isn't important, she has decided what she wants us to know and
that's all there is.
>
>
>
> Trychydts
Which means? and is pronounced?
Trychydts
<buga...@sezampro.yu> wrote:
>I wonder what made Trychydts <ba...@ludens.elte.hu> write the
>following:
>
>> The Ministry of Magic "belongs" under the Muggle Prime Minister
>> while its existence is in secret.
>
>Interesting... what makes you say that?
>
>In PoA there were protests because Fudge informed the Muggle PM that
>Black escaped. This indicates to me that the MoM doesn't have frequent
>contacts with the Muggle government.
Interesting... I concluded just the opposite from the sam fact! :)
>My impression is that, except for it's name ("Ministry"), the MoM
>doesn't have any connection whatsoever with the Muggle authorities.
>(Possibly they have some sort of communication in situations like
>Sirius's escape or when dealing with Muggleborns) The MoM is
>practically the Wizarding government and it's departments are the
>equivalents of the ministries every Muggle government has.
>
>I don't know why JKR decided to name the MoM "Ministry" but if it
>really is a "subsystem" of the Muggle government, then it would make
>wizards too dependent on Muggles.
The wizards are dependent on Muggles. The Prime Minister - according
even to your quote above - is aware of the existence of the wizarding
world. Several Muggles (Hermione's parent's, for example) also are.
The wizarding community is depending on the discretion of these
people.
I think JKR named Ministry of Magic "Ministry of Magic" because it is
a ministry :), although more independent than the other ones. I think
naming is too important to be ignored without serios reason.
>> Cornelius Fudge can give out regulations without control, it was
>> evindent in the Order of Phoenix. The Daily Prophet was also
>> controlled by the Ministry of Magic - it would be unaccaptable in the
>> Muggle world. If it turned out that the Government forbade the major
>> newspaper giving out important information there would be a huge
>> scandal. In the books there happens nothing.
>
>Let's not forget that it looks as though the Wizarding Community lives
>in an old-fashioned society and it wouldn't be fair to compare them to
>today's standards. If we compared them to the standards which were
>present in the 19th century, the way MoM works would be a great
>progress.
What makes you say that? The wizarding community doesn't seem to be
old-fashioned to me at all; besides, several members of it are
originally coming from Muggle famlies so they were raised up in a
democracy.
In the school, student's rights are well respected. The Ministry
cannot expel you from Hogwarts without a trial. International law is
in also a very advanced state. There is an open market. Just because
they write with quills and wear cloaks the society cannot be
old-fashioned because it is connected with the Muggle world with
several ways.
>One of the things that would also be unacceptable in today's Muggle
>democracies is the fact that the Minister is also a member of the
>Wizengamot. Someone who has the executive power cannot perform
>jurisdiction.
I keep saying that JKR hasn't thought over her universe really
thoroughly - the story was much more important. If you read carefully,
the little details of less important things are very often
contradictory.
>> Gringotts must be an independent institution,
>> if no Auror can monitor who and why takes out money form vault 711.
>
>Considering that Gringotts is run by Goblins and not Wizards and that
>they're apparently not an exclusively British institution (they have a
>bank in Egypt), I don't think the MoM has a large authority over them.
Banks in the Muggle world are international organizations; still, the
laws of the countries naturally applies to the banks, too, and in
special cases the authorites has access to their client's data, too.
Trychydts
Kish
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:10:42 +0100, Bojan Bugarin
> <buga...@sezampro.yu> wrote:
>
> The wizards are dependent on Muggles. The Prime Minister - according
> even to your quote above - is aware of the existence of the wizarding
> world. Several Muggles (Hermione's parent's, for example) also are.
> The wizarding community is depending on the discretion of these
> people.
And if they weren't discreet, they'd get Memory Charmed. Fudge wouldn't
hold back an employee for being too interested in Muggles if he didn't
hold Muggles in contempt. Sirius' second cousin tried to push through a
bill to make Muggle-hunting legal, and Arthur Weasley authored a Muggle
Protection Act; if wizards didn't hold themselves exempt from Muggle
laws, the former would have been absurd and the latter unnecessary.
>>Let's not forget that it looks as though the Wizarding Community lives
>>in an old-fashioned society and it wouldn't be fair to compare them to
>>today's standards. If we compared them to the standards which were
>>present in the 19th century, the way MoM works would be a great
>>progress.
>
>
> What makes you say that? The wizarding community doesn't seem to be
> old-fashioned to me at all; besides, several members of it are
> originally coming from Muggle famlies so they were raised up in a
> democracy.
>
> In the school, student's rights are well respected.
...by Dumbledore. Dumbledore is certainly extremely progressive by any
standard--that doesn't mean the rest of the wizarding world is.
During Filch's time there, there has apparently been a Headmaster who
permitted him to hang students up in the dungeon.
Trychydts
<siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <5vqo00hsb6u72bgpd...@4ax.com>,
>While officially the Minister of Magic may be beneath the PM,
>unofficially he is running a parallel government. I doubt the PM can
>control the MoM if it doesn't want him to.
I can hardly believe that this doesn't work in the other way. The
Prime Minister is too important to let his memory modified all the
time. So I do think that in critical cases he has at least some
indirect influence on the ministry of Magic.
>> Cornelius Fudge can give out regulations without control, it was
>> evindent in the Order of Phoenix. The Daily Prophet was also
>> controlled by the Ministry of Magic - it would be unaccaptable in the
>> Muggle world. If it turned out that the Government forbade the major
>> newspaper giving out important information there would be a huge
>> scandal. In the books there happens nothing.
>
>An executive in most organizations can issue orders to entities under
>his authority. The question that Rowling was raising is does that
>authority extend to the schools? Again, does the executives authority
>extend to the press? Definitely not in countries that have a free
>press. apparently it isn't so definite with the schools. I'm not
>British, but I gather that Rowling was basing this on a real
>controversy, hopefully not quite this extreme.
As being a journalist whose speciality is education, I can assure you
that what happens in The Order of the Phoenix is unimaginable in
Europe. The main rules of the educational system - which also bounds
the Government - are written in educational laws which simply cannot
be changed by the Minsitry (of Education). In smaller cases, the
Ministry obviously has the right to give out regulations but direct
control of a paticular school is unimaginable.
Besides, in the Chamber of Secrets, the Ministry did not have direct
infulence above the school, it was directed by a council of school
governors. This also seems to be forgotten by Rowling.
>> I don't like to assume anything that isn't explicitly written down.
>> However, vaults and accounts cannot be compared. An account hold money
>> only virtually, and when you need cash, the bank gives it to you from
>> a central pool. A vault holds the money physically and it's personally
>> you who takes the money out. So lending it to someone else is
>> virtually impossible - but in the Muggle world, that's the whole point
>> of a bank. It holds your money, lends it to someone else and shares
>> the interest with you.
>
>Gringott's might do this with some of it's accounts. We only know how
>Harry's works. If you kept your money in a private vault at your bank,
>yours would work the same way. But then, you would forgo the
>opportunity to earn interest and some of the convenience that comes from
>having a commingled account with all the money in the main vault.
Firstly, we have also seen the Weasly's vault - it works the same way.
Assuming that other kind of vaults exists, is pure speculation.
A private vault is usually not for money. Keeping cash in a vault or
in a safe (of a bank, of course, private safes are a different matter)
is usually a solution for those who want their money hidden - even
from the authorities. The Potters were killed unexpectedly - they
thought that they are protected by the Fidelius charm.
>> It also seems really unlikely that there is fee for a upkeep - the
>> Weaslys kept very little money in it. If they had to pay for even a
>> vault, they would most likely give it up.
>
>Now you are just speculating. I'd argue the other way since Gringott's
>must make money some how. It wouldn't rent out vaults for free. I
>would find that to be unlikely.
I agree. I am just saying that Rowling overlooked this question (just
like she will the question of Sirius's inheritance, to stay on topic
at least nominally).
In the Chamber of Secrets, you can read:
"Harry enjoyed the breakneck journey down to the Weasley's vault, but
felt dreadful, far worse than he had in Knockturn Alley when it was
opened. There was a very small pile of silver Sickles inside and just
one Galeon. Mrs. Weasley felt right into the corner before sweeping
the whole lot into her bag."
I have, of course, speculated, but on basement of the book's
statement. Unfortunately, this is one of the most contradictory part
of the story - this money seems to be enough to buy several set of
book, equipment for Ginny, and some Floo powder, while in the later
books childer bet on tens of Galeons, buy toys for Galeons and so on -
obviously it isn't just Harry who is not interested by the monetary
system of his world - JKR seems to lost his interest, too. However, in
this part, you can clearly see that the Weasleys keep less money in
their vault than Harry's one-term "pocket money". How much could be
the fee if it still worth to keep it there? (If I have to guess - and
I admint that it is pure speculation - that providing a free vault for
every wizarding family in Britain is part of the agreement between the
Goblins and the wizards. Thus the Goblins can stay in the business and
can lend their high-security vaults on request.)
>> However, it is unlikely in that paticular situation. Sirius writes it
>> in his letter in the end of The Prisoner of Azkaban:
>>
>> "I used your name but told them to take the money gold from
>> Gringotts vault seven hundred and eleven - my own."
>>
>> It is quite clear that it was not even the bank who managed the
>> transaction, it was the broom store itself. What stops them to take
>> out all the gold? After a few owl-post orders and much too many person
>> would know the password or have a spare key.
>
>This is exactly analogous to Sirius writing a check to the broom store
>that entitles the broom store to get a particular amount of money from
>the bank. That's all a check or a bank draft is, a written letter
>authorizing someone to get money from your account if they present it to
>the bank. they can't take out all your money because they are nice
>enough not modify what you wrote down as the amount. Goblins are
>probably very good at catcing forgeries.
Well, not exactly. We saw in The Philospher's Stone that if you have
the key, you can open the vault. (You can, of course, assume that
other kind of vaults exist beside the ones that we have already seen,
but it remains pure speculation - I do hope that I do not sound
arrogant now. I just say that I like to believe what is explicitly
confirmed by the books.) A check is quite different from that - the
bank has a record of your signature so the check can be validated.
Sending the key would be like sending someone your ATM card with your
PIN code.
>> Of course, with some effort, you could surely find out some way which
>> is safe and working - maybe Sirius used his PGP-signature and the
>> shopkeeper showed the encoded message to the goblins whe decoded it
>> with his public key (sorry for the joke). I just say that these things
>> - just like the actual value of the money - doesn't seem important to
>> Rowling, so I don't think that she suddenly starts to bother with
>> Sirius's heritage.
>
>She may have worked it out and decided that it didn't belong in the
>story. She claims to have worked out a lot of stuff that doesn't get
>into the books. If Harry doesn't know, then we won't know. Harry
>doesn't think about this sort of thing, so he won't know unless he must
>know or someone insists on telling him.
As I try to prove above, some things - like the monetary system - is
evindently contradictory. Do you really think that JKR has a fully
developed legal system of the wizarding world in his drawer?
>> >Rowling has never tried to tell us more than Harry himself knows. We
>> >will only know details of law if Harry somehow becomes much more
>> >interested in such. He tends not to get interested in the details until
>> >they have a direct bearing on him.
>>
>> It is, of course, true. However, the dedicated reader can find much
>> scattered information.
>
>You are right. didn't mean to oversimply. Sometimes, Rowling drops
>hints about things so that we do know things that Harry doesn't. But,
>she still isn't trying to write a complete text on how wizarding
>institutions work. It just isn't necessary. Not that it wouldn't be of
>interest to some of us. Maybe someday we can persuade her to write
>about it. But first, she has to get this Harry story out.
Absolutely agreed!
>> Even in this case. Gringotts must be an
>> independent institution, if no Auror can monitor who and why takes out
>> money form vault 711. (If they could, they would have surley found
>> Sirius in Hogsmeade.)
>
>Right, it is run by goblins, not wizards. And we know from Binn's class
>that goblins are a proud race that does not permit itself to be
>subordinate to wizards. They will cooperate with wizards when it is in
>their interest to do so. Sirius escape is not a banking issue, so they
>don't feel morally, ethically, or fiducially responsible to help out.
I tried to say just the same but my English was not sufficient for
this. Thanks! ;)
Trychydts
Kish
> obviously it isn't just Harry who is not interested by the monetary
> system of his world - JKR seems to lost his interest, too.
> Do you really think that JKR has a fully
> developed legal system of the wizarding world in his drawer?
Err, Joanne K. Rowling is definitely female.
Trychydts
I think it is a matter in which JKR is a bit inconsistent again. The
Death Eaters should be a secret organization - Karakoff tries to buy
his freedom by revealing other Death Eaters.
However, it is hard to understand how can they remain secret if they
all have a Dark Mark on their wrists.
Trychydts
Trychydts
>Trychydts wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:10:42 +0100, Bojan Bugarin
>> <buga...@sezampro.yu> wrote:
>>
>
>> The wizards are dependent on Muggles. The Prime Minister - according
>> even to your quote above - is aware of the existence of the wizarding
>> world. Several Muggles (Hermione's parent's, for example) also are.
>> The wizarding community is depending on the discretion of these
>> people.
>
>And if they weren't discreet, they'd get Memory Charmed. Fudge wouldn't
>hold back an employee for being too interested in Muggles if he didn't
>hold Muggles in contempt. Sirius' second cousin tried to push through a
>bill to make Muggle-hunting legal, and Arthur Weasley authored a Muggle
>Protection Act; if wizards didn't hold themselves exempt from Muggle
>laws, the former would have been absurd and the latter unnecessary.
I did not say that they follow the laws of the Muggle laws. I just say
that they are _dependent_ on Muggles; maybe I could have been a bit
more specific.
The Wizarding Community is a small minority; the majority of this
minority whishes to remain secret. This can't be achieved by modifying
anybody's memory who fails to behave like a good boy; too many memory
modifications and it will be the thing that reveals the wizarding
community. They _need_ the co-operation of the Muggles. We can suspect
that the Minister of Magic and the Prime Minister work at least in
co-operation, there are some hints suggesting this in Prisoner of
Azkaban.
>
>>>Let's not forget that it looks as though the Wizarding Community lives
>>>in an old-fashioned society and it wouldn't be fair to compare them to
>>>today's standards. If we compared them to the standards which were
>>>present in the 19th century, the way MoM works would be a great
>>>progress.
>>
>>
>> What makes you say that? The wizarding community doesn't seem to be
>> old-fashioned to me at all; besides, several members of it are
>> originally coming from Muggle famlies so they were raised up in a
>> democracy.
>>
>> In the school, student's rights are well respected.
>
>...by Dumbledore. Dumbledore is certainly extremely progressive by any
>standard--that doesn't mean the rest of the wizarding world is.
All the professors keep them to these standards. There are
sophisticated regulations in the Ministry for dealing with
law-breaking students.
I had other examples, too.
>During Filch's time there, there has apparently been a Headmaster who
>permitted him to hang students up in the dungeon.
It is never stated. Filch only knows that some time the students were
hung up - he never says he have ever done this himself. Do you think
Armado Dippet would allow such things? I don't think so.
Trychydts
Trychydts
"I am deeply sorry, Master!"
I am not a native speaker, and in Hungarian there there is no male and
female pronouns. I will pay attention.
Trychydts
LadyRayden
Sincerely,
LadyRayden
(Death to the evil General Spam and his army of corrupt Cookies.)
Ron Lowe
news:f5ps00hr28k4od7vu...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 04:02:26 GMT, Sirius Kase
> <siriu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <FsWOb.4725$_u4....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>,
>> "Bruja Traviesa" <brujatr...@hotm1ail.comeoffit> wrote:
>>
>>> Spoiler content from Goblet of fire below.
>>> I'm not saying they're not a secret organization. I'm going to have
>>> to reread the second book again, because I was left with the
>>> impression that they only became a secret organization after
>>> Voldermorte lost his power.
>>>
>>> >The Mom knew they existed, but the identities of the members was
>>> >kept
>>> > hideen. Prosecution of individuals for being members was very
>>> > difficult. that is why Malfoy walked free and Sirius went to
>>> > prison.>
>>>
>>> One of the reasons I've thought the death eaters went underground
>>> after Voldermorte loses his powers, is that when he returns, he
>>> berates them for having abandoned him and for their failure to help
>>> him, while he's wandering around powerless, looking for a body.
>>
>>I think that they were already underground. But when Voldy lost his
>>powers, they essentially disbanded. A loyal group would have come to
>>the aid of their leader whether or not they were underground. They
>>could have looked for him even while being a secret organization.
>
>
> I think it is a matter in which JKR is a bit inconsistent again. The
> Death Eaters should be a secret organization - Karakoff tries to buy
> his freedom by revealing other Death Eaters.
>
> However, it is hard to understand how can they remain secret if they
> all have a Dark Mark on their wrists.
>
>
> Trychydts
But until recently not many people knew about the dark mark. Even
Sirius, an OOP member did not know of it. When Harry describes Karkorof
showing Snape his arm, Sirius has no idea why. I assume Snape would have
told Dumbledore of it, but D would have to keep it quiet so as not to
give it away to you know who that Snape was D's spy.
Ron.
Jonathan Buzzard
[SNIP]
>>
>> However, if no document was left behind, the two alternatives are the
>> Malfoys or the Ministry, itself. For obvious reasons, Fudge would likely go
>> with the Ministry.
>
> That would be an interesting twist - Sirius' estate goes to the Malfoys, who
> give everything to Draco. Then Draco could use that to taunt Harry in years 6
> and 7.
Why the Malfoys? Sirius had other living relatives including but limited
to Tonks and the Weasleys. It was not made clear that Draco's mother was
Blacks closest living relative at all.
JAB.
--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20040121080459...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> The Dark Mark only appears when Voldemort wants
> to call his followers to him.
Nope.
"Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a
means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him.
[...] This Mark has been glowing clearer all year."
-Snape, GoF, Chapter 36 ("The Parting of the Ways"), pg. 10, Arthur A.
Levine edition.
Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I'm glad you're with me, Samwise Gamgee, here at the end of all things."
-Frodo Baggins, _LotR: Return of the King_.
Troels Forchhammer
>
Hi Jonathan, good to hear from you again!
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers
exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will
instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more
bizarrely inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already
happened."
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snip>
> The Prime Minister is too important to let his memory modified all
> the time. So I do think that in critical cases he has at least some
> indirect influence on the ministry of Magic.
The fuss in PoA over the contact with the Muggle PM implies to me that
there is normally no contact; that the Ministry of Magic headed by the
Minister for Magic runs the magical community without contact with the
Muggle government. Only in cases where there is an immediate need for
the contact is it established. I think that most Muggle PMs never learn
about the magical community.
The contacts, based on what we learn in PoA, seem to be initiated by the
Minister for Magic when they are needed by the magical community rather
than the other way around.
> As being a journalist whose speciality is education, I can assure you
> that what happens in The Order of the Phoenix is unimaginable in
> Europe.
[...]
> Besides, in the Chamber of Secrets, the Ministry did not have direct
> infulence above the school, it was directed by a council of school
> governors. This also seems to be forgotten by Rowling.
I don't think she forgot it. Rather I think Fudge deliberately created
an atmosphere in which he could overstep his authority and ensure a
far more direct control of the school than what is usually allowed. He
succeeded in OotP, but I think the situation will be back to normal in
book 6.
<snip>
> As I try to prove above, some things - like the monetary system - is
> evindently contradictory. Do you really think that JKR has a fully
> developed legal system of the wizarding world in his drawer?
No, that would be going too far, IMO. I think she has developed rather
far the essential parts (such as the International Statute of Secrecy
and the ban against underage magic), and for the rest she has a clear
idea of both /how/ the legal system works (and doesn't work) in the
magical community and the attitudes which are reflected in the laws
(see e.g. the treatment in FB&WtFT about the development of the
treatment of magical creatures and the bureaucratic apparatus that
surrounds the inter-species relations).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!"
dvh
mentioned V's name, in OotP, during occlumency lesson.
Toon
wrote:
It only show when summoned. Snape had one, but it only showed when
activated, and when he revealed it, it was beginning to fade. SO, it'
snot like the MOM coulda lifted their sleeves up and looked.
David Robin
wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 04:02:26 GMT, Sirius Kase
Well, magical folk in Harry Potter books don't seem to be big on
short-sleave shirts and the like. I'd also imagine that if you serve
someone like Voldemort, you don't advertise being a Deatheater, unless
you are ready to shuffle off this mortal coil.
BTW, they *are* a secret organization--in the same way that Al-Quada
is. That is to say, you know it exists, does terrible things, but you
don't know who is in on it. Remember, one of the fears had been that
you didn't know *who* was a Deatheater--even friends might be.
David
Note: I no longer allow emails to reach my inbox, unless it is from
someone I know. If you want to email me let me know, so I can add the
address to my email filter.
David Robin
Not so. Remember in GoF, Karkaoffsays to Snape that the death mark
had been becoming clearer and clearer in the past year.
David
Note--I no filter out all email except those from people from whom I
want to recieve email. If you wish to email me, let me know via
Usenet, and I will add you to my filter--If I want to hear from you.
Trychydts
wrote:
>Well, magical folk in Harry Potter books don't seem to be big on
>short-sleave shirts and the like. I'd also imagine that if you serve
>someone like Voldemort, you don't advertise being a Deatheater, unless
>you are ready to shuffle off this mortal coil.
>
So are you saying that after catching/killing some Death Eaters, no
Auror realized that they all had a Dark Mark on their wrists? Did they
just left the bodies lying around, send the Death Eaters to Azkaban
without thoroughly checking their robes and bodies?
Trychydts
Godzilla
>Toon wrote:
>>> I can't see how someone who was
>>> naturally in Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/
>>> Voldemort.
>>
>> Peter Pettigrew.
>
>
Like Neville Longbottom, Pettigrew also had flashes of bravery - but
his turned out to be in support of Voldy... like going and finding him
after escaping from Sirius and Lupin.
Godzilla
David Robin
wrote:
I imagine that if the MOM knew about identifying marks, they would
have checked everyone for them, or at least MOM personnel. Since they
didn't, they don't seem to know about the deathmark on deatheaters.
Also, Indeed, think they were lax when sending malafactors to
Azkaban--after all the place was considered unescapable.
David
Note--if you want to email me, notify me via email first, or is will
be filtered out and automatically deleted.
Trychydts
wrote:
>I imagine that if the MOM knew about identifying marks, they would
>have checked everyone for them, or at least MOM personnel. Since they
>didn't, they don't seem to know about the deathmark on deatheaters.
Against all logic? Isn't it at least _possible_ that JKR made some
mistakes while writing the books? I always wonder how many of you
thinks it an axiom that JKR's storytelling is unfallable. Could you
give some kind of explanation how is it possible that after catching
several Death Eaters they managed to miss that there is Lord
Voldemort's well-known sign on the wrist of every single one of them?
>Also, Indeed, think they were lax when sending malafactors to
>Azkaban--after all the place was considered unescapable.
So if Azkaban is unescapable, every wizard held there is allowed to
smuggle in a wand in there sleeve to conujure up a Patronus is he is
too bored? They also have to be transported there.
Trychydts
Steve Bretherick
> Toon wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:12:20 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
> > <Tro...@ThisIsFake.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >> DM wrote:
> >>>
> >>> One or both of Harry's parents may be linked to Voldemort, but, maybe
> >>> when Harry was born, turned. I'm not saying it's a certainty, just that
> >>> it's a possibility.
> >
> > No, because they can't have thriced defied him, if one turned when
> > Harry was born. So unless they happened within 9 months, they clearly
> > fought against him.
>
> Good point.
>
> > >I feel convinced that Lily would never follow Voldemort - "was in
> > >Gryffindor (/naturally/)" (my emphasis). The way Rowling has described the
> > >Gryffindor virtues, I can't see how someone who was naturally in
> > >Gryffindor could do anything but fight /against/ Voldemort.
> >
> > Peter Pettigrew.
>
> Who /may/ have been in Gryffindor (there is still, to my knowledge, no
> canonical proof of which house he belonged to), and who, in any case,
> would not be a natural Gryffindor (it would not be obvious).
We also haven't seen the end of Peter's story yet ... we know from POA
that he owes his life to Harry and that DD thinks this might be
significant ...
Troels Forchhammer
>
GoF spoiler space:
> It only show when summoned. Snape had one, but it only showed when
> activated, and when he revealed it, it was beginning to fade. SO, it'
> snot like the MOM coulda lifted their sleeves up and looked.
From GoF-36 'The Parting of the Ways':
" Snape strode forwards, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left
sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm, and
showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.
'There,' said Snape harshly. 'There. The Dark Mark. It is
not as clear as it was an hour or so ago, when it burnt black,
but you can still see it. Every Death Eater had the sign burnt
into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing
each other, and his means of summoning us to him. When he
touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate,
and Apparate, instantly, at his side. This Mark has been
growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too. Why do you think
Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both
knew he had returned. "
The Dark Mark was "a means of distinguishing each other" for the Death
Eaters, which wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't visible - furthermore
we learn that the Mark had been becoming clearer all year - long before
Voldemort was re-embodied and touched Pettigrew's Mark.
Additionally the /final/ proof for Snape and Karkaroff that Voldemort had
returned was that their Marks /burned black/! This was the signal for the
Death Eaters to assemble (when Voldemort touched Pettigrew's Mark we also
see that it pains Pettigrew).
We can infer further information from this. The Dark Mark had "been growing
clearer all year" - that would mean that it was not clear when the year
started; perhaps (I would suppose this) it was completely invisible.
That would mean that the clarity of the Mark is connected to the current
power of Voldemort, which implies that the Mark would have become unclear
as soon as Voldemort was disembodied when he attacked baby Harry.
We have also learned that Malfoy claimed to have been acting under the
influence of the Imperius curse rather than trying to claim that he hadn't
been involved at all and I suppose that other Death Eaters used the same
defence. It would therefore not have mattered if his Dark Mark hadn't
faded entirely when he was arrested: he might even claim that it was a
kind of torture the Dark Lord had inflicted upon him while controlling him.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
"It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
nothing."
- Frodo Baggins, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Troels Forchhammer
>
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:44:43 -0500, David Robin <d_p_...@fuse.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> I imagine that if the MOM knew about identifying marks, they would
>> have checked everyone for them, or at least MOM personnel. Since they
>> didn't, they don't seem to know about the deathmark on deatheaters.
For the Ministry to be able to use such knowledge, it would require
three things:
1: That they had access to test people (this doesn't seem to have
been much of a problem - individual rights doesn't appear to have
been of much concern to the Ministry during the first war) and
know whom to test (that might have presented a problem prior to
Voldemort's fall).
2: That they knew that the Dark Mark only was given to people who
were voluntary members of the Death Eaters (i.e. not to controlled
persons). This could have presented quite a problem.
3: That the Marks were visible when they tested people. This would, IMO,
have been a problem only /after/ Voldemort's downfall.
Since I think that 1 and 3 don't apply at the same time, I don't think
that the Ministry could have utilized the knowledge if they had it.
> Against all logic? Isn't it at least _possible_ that JKR made some
> mistakes while writing the books? I always wonder how many of you
> thinks it an axiom that JKR's storytelling is unfallable.
Nonsense. We all know that there are errors in the books, but just
stating, "oh this is an error" doesn't really get us any further - the
discussion merely stops there, and we can then lean back in malicious
glee at having proved this extremely successful author fallible.
I'm afraid that that solution doesn't really satisfy me. Yes, Rowling
is definitely fallible. Check out, for instance, my essays on the
timeline and the number of students at Hogwarts (both available from
Hogwarts Library <http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/>) for in
depth analyses of some of her mistakes.
Just stating the error is not enough for me - I find it immensely more
satisfying to try to come up with a reasonable, story-internal explanation
that stops the plot hole. Doubtlessly some will see this a a fanboy
trying to cover up for his idol - let them. To me it is an entertaining
exercise in analysis, and I've often learned some new details about
Potterverse trying to do so.
> Could you give some kind of explanation how is it possible that after
> catching several Death Eaters they managed to miss that there is Lord
> Voldemort's well-known sign on the wrist of every single one of them?
Assumption A: The Dark Mark vanishes when the Death Eater dies.
Assumption B: The Dark Mark vanished when Voldemort was disembodied.
Assumption C: The Ministry of Magic didn't catch any Death Eaters
alive while Voldemort was in power.
The trials in GoF all take place /after/ Voldemort's fall. At that point
the Ministry is trying to discover who the Death Eaters were. This at
least implies that they didn't know who to look for before that.
> So if Azkaban is unescapable, every wizard held there is allowed to
> smuggle in a wand in there sleeve to conujure up a Patronus is he is
> too bored? They also have to be transported there.
That argument isn't really valid. The inescapability of Azkaban relies
entirely on the prisoners' helplessness against the guards. That also
applies for the transport, and it would be invalidated by giving them
a wand. As long as the prisoners don't have a wand and are guarded by
Dementors, they were considered unable to escape (and indeed only one
prisoner ever managed that) no matter where they were held.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Sirius Kase
Trychydts <ba...@ludens.elte.hu> wrote:
> I did not say that they follow the laws of the Muggle laws. I just say
> that they are _dependent_ on Muggles; maybe I could have been a bit
> more specific.
They are about as dependent on Muggles as any other dumb animals. I
detect much arrogance and elitism. Even our hero gets his feelings of
self worth from his magic. Of course, he still has much to learn.
>
> The Wizarding Community is a small minority; the majority of this
> minority whishes to remain secret. This can't be achieved by modifying
> anybody's memory who fails to behave like a good boy; too many memory
> modifications and it will be the thing that reveals the wizarding
> community.
Nope, muggles are very good at devising nonmagical explanations. Ever
hear of Alzeimers? Does it reveal anything to you about the wizarding
community? I rest my case.
> They _need_ the co-operation of the Muggles. We can suspect
> that the Minister of Magic and the Prime Minister work at least in
> co-operation, there are some hints suggesting this in Prisoner of
> Azkaban.
Yes, they cooperate, that doesn't mean they respect each other. A good
MoM will let the PM think he is in charge and a good PM will let the MoM
think he is in charge. Who is really in charge depends on individual
personalities and attitudes towards the use of power. A nasty PM up
against someone with the ethics of Dumbledore might just bomb Hogwarts
eliminating a whole generation of young wizards.
Richard Eney
David Robin <d_p_...@fuse.net> wrote:
>On 21 Jan 2004 13:04:59 GMT, ladyr...@aol.com (LadyRayden) wrote:
>
>>The Dark Mark only appears when Voldemort wants to call his followers
>>to him.
>
>had been becoming clearer and clearer in the past year.
The Dark Mark is on the _forearm_, not the wrist, so normal long sleeves
would cover it. When Voldemort was weak, it faded to (near) invisibility.
When Harry was about nine, it would have been very hard to see who had
been a DE by looking for the mark. When V is strong, the mark is more
noticeable.
=Tamar
Richard Eney
>>> In the school, student's rights are well respected.
>>
>>...by Dumbledore. Dumbledore is certainly extremely progressive by any
>>standard--that doesn't mean the rest of the wizarding world is.
<snip>
>>During Filch's time there, there has apparently been a Headmaster who
>>permitted him to hang students up in the dungeon.
>
>It is never stated. Filch only knows that some time the students were
>hung up - he never says he have ever done this himself.
Filch says specifically, "I miss the screaming." That means he has been
present when it was done, either as a subordinate or as the one doing it.
=Tamar