At the Mouse Circus - in response to David Loftus review
M. Davis
into easy materialism and has no identity of his own. Rather than show the
violence of a racist society, HE shows the demoralising nature of the then
(30 yrs ago) modern America dream, but with a style in accord with those
times, in a pop iconic/psychedelic fashion, hence the denatured Captain
Marvel and a lost Mickey Mouse, mirroring the central character's own sense
of being whirled about in a cultural free for all on a journey to the
heartland of America (or am I making to much out of Ohio, is it some
personal reference for HE?). Charlie, the King of Tibet, could have been
anything, instead he is a gigolo with an expensive car - "he had dealt with
surfaces and then been dealt with similarly". Juxtaposed with the crucified
Jesus, when asked what he wants, "'I want.' he began then spread his hands
in confusion. He knew what he wanted to say, but no one had ever ordered
the progression of words for him." His "mojo" (for lack of a better term)
is taken away by a woman resulting in impotency, while his newly formulated
desire to see the sea is thwarted by the fact that a crowd eats his car, or
for the Freudianists, society has castrated him. "Afoot in Dayton, Ohio, he
was dead of dreams. 'What time is it?' he asked". Charlie asks this
question throughout the story, emphasising his disorientation from his
environment, and in the fashion of the times one might answer "Later than
you think". Whether it is a story of failure or awakening is too close to
call, but this is a story in the same vein as "The Cheese Stands Alone" and
with a definite social edge. I may be wrong about the racial issue, but it
seems to accord with an essay by Tom Wolfe ( I think) from roughly the same
period that covered the same sort of territory.
Matthew Davis
http://www.michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk/tmd.htm
Schroedinger's Cake: A Website About Thomas M. Disch
David J. Loftus
: My take on "At the Mouse Circus" : it's is about how the black man has
: given into easy materialism and has no identity of his own. Rather
: than show the violence of a racist society, HE shows the demoralising
: nature of the then (30 yrs ago) modern America dream, but with a style
: in accord with those times, in a pop iconic/psychedelic fashion, hence
: the denatured Captain Marvel and a lost Mickey Mouse, mirroring the
: central character's own sense of being whirled about in a cultural
: free for all on a journey to the heartland of America (or am I making
: to much out of Ohio, is it some personal reference for HE?).
Oh, no. He was born in Ohio, where other kids perpetually beat him up
for being a Jew until he was able to run away from home at 13. Later, he
dropped out of Ohio State with what he says was the lowest grade point
average in the history of the school.
You'll notice that in "The Face of Helene Bournouw," the promising artist
she screws (in more ways than one) slinks back to Ohio.
: Charlie, the King of Tibet, could have been anything, instead he is a
: gigolo with an expensive car - "he had dealt with surfaces and then
: been dealt with similarly". Juxtaposed with the crucified Jesus, when
: asked what he wants, "'I want.' he began then spread his hands in
: confusion. He knew what he wanted to say, but no one had ever ordered
: the progression of words for him." His "mojo" (for lack of a better term)
: is taken away by a woman resulting in impotency, while his newly
: formulated desire to see the sea is thwarted by the fact that a crowd
: eats his car, or for the Freudianists, society has castrated him.
: "Afoot in Dayton, Ohio, he was dead of dreams. 'What time is it?' he
: asked". Charlie asks this question throughout the story, emphasising
: his disorientation from his environment, and in the fashion of the
: times one might answer "Later than you think". Whether it is a story
: of failure or awakening is too close to call, but this is a story in
: the same vein as "The Cheese Stands Alone" and with a definite social
: edge. I may be wrong about the racial issue, but it seems to accord
: with an essay by Tom Wolfe ( I think) from roughly the same period
: that covered the same sort of territory.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
Nevertheless, the story retains a cartoonish quality (not in a good
sense), like much of "Delusion For a Dragon Slayer" which I like a little
better.
And thanks for signaling that you actually read through at least part of
my commentaries on _Deathbird Stories_, now live on Rick Wyatt's Ellison
Webderland site.
David Loftus
Larry, the Other White Meat
David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom15.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8itsp2$mo1$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> M. Davis <mic...@michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Nevertheless, the story retains a cartoonish quality (not in a good
> sense), like much of "Delusion For a Dragon Slayer" which I like a little
> better.
I've never noticed that about a lot of Ellison's work. Particularly the
pieces I'm not as fond of.
Larry --
Larry, the Other White Meat
Larry, the Other White Meat <globa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8iu5vk$i59$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
I meant I *have* noticed that about some of Ellison's work (never attempt
typing and thinking at the same time). I'm not sure I would call it
"cartoonish", or a lack of subtlety in Ellison's style.
Larry -
--
ICQ No. 77704089
David J. Loftus
: Larry, the Other White Meat <globa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
: news:8iu5vk$i59$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
:>
:> David J. Loftus <dl...@netcom15.netcom.com> wrote in message
:> news:8itsp2$mo1$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
:> > M. Davis <mic...@michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
:> >
:> > Nevertheless, the story retains a cartoonish quality (not in a good
:> > sense), like much of "Delusion For a Dragon Slayer" which I like a
:> > little better.
:>
:> I've never noticed that about a lot of Ellison's work. Particularly the
:> pieces I'm not as fond of.
: I meant I *have* noticed that about some of Ellison's work (never attempt
: typing and thinking at the same time).
Thanks for clearing that up! I puzzled over that for 10 or 15 seconds
before moving on, hoping there would be more.
: I'm not sure I would call it "cartoonish", or a lack of subtlety in
: Ellison's style.
Hmm. I've noticed both problems in some of Ellison's writing, and I
don't regard them as the same thing. (I assume I understand the above
sentence if I insert a "whether" after the "not sure"?).
For me, cartoonish implies antic, particularly visual but without
emotional depth. Lack of subtlety can have a lot of emotion, like a
slap to the face, while not being particularly visual (although you can
easily have both together). For me, "At the Mouse Circus" is cartoonish,
with lots of visual content that just doesn't have any emotional punch
for me, while "The Place With No Name" (about the NY pimp who finds
himself in the jungle, set up to replace Prometheus, who is Christ's
lover) is plenty visual, not very subtle, but not as cartoonish, for some
reason. "Delusion for a Dragon Slayer" is very cartoonish, and not too
subtle, but somehow a little more successful because at least it has a
surprise or two.
Since we're on the subject of story effectiveness, I reread "I Have No
Mouth And I Must Scream" and I have to say I was a bit underwhelmed. Not
by the STORY so much as the writing. It's not very subtle at all, and
much of the narrative, such as the attack of the giant bird, is not very
skillfully related -- the narrator tells what happened, but doesn't
depict it very effectively. In sum, it's a DYNAMITE concept, but not
that great an execution. I'm moving this story a few notches down in the
pantheon.
Since Ellison all but pleads for readers to raise their estimation of
"Grail" in relation to "I Have No Mouth," I'll try to get back to that
one soon.
It sure is nice to be discussing Ellison's writing here, for once.
David Loftus
Larry, the Other White Meat
> : I'm not sure I would call it "cartoonish", or a lack of subtlety in
> : Ellison's style.
>
> Hmm. I've noticed both problems in some of Ellison's writing, and I
> don't regard them as the same thing. (I assume I understand the above
> sentence if I insert a "whether" after the "not sure"?).
>
Hehehe yup. And can you believe they let me write for a major magazine in my
city? <grins>
> For me, cartoonish implies antic, particularly visual but without
> emotional depth. Lack of subtlety can have a lot of emotion, like a
> slap to the face, while not being particularly visual (although you can
> easily have both together).
I see your difference.
> For me, "At the Mouse Circus" is cartoonish,
> with lots of visual content that just doesn't have any emotional punch
> for me, while "The Place With No Name" (about the NY pimp who finds
> himself in the jungle, set up to replace Prometheus, who is Christ's
> lover) is plenty visual, not very subtle, but not as cartoonish, for some
> reason.
One thing about Ellison's writing is that he sometimes walks a very thin
line between a reasonable supension of disbelief, and the downright absurd.
In one story Ellison can get you to accept the wildest ideas ("The Place
With No Name" for instance) and make them seem at least somewhat convincing.
In other stories (At the Mouse Circus, or Mefisto in Onyx) the premise
becomes too unbelievable and comes off as "cartoonish" or absurd.
>"Delusion for a Dragon Slayer" is very cartoonish, and not too
> subtle, but somehow a little more successful because at least it has a
> surprise or two.
>
That is one of Ellison's more redeeming features, imho. His writing at times
lack subtley and seems incrediably over the top, but he still can deliver a
literary equivilent of a kick in the balls.
> Since we're on the subject of story effectiveness, I reread "I Have No
> Mouth And I Must Scream" and I have to say I was a bit underwhelmed. Not
> by the STORY so much as the writing. It's not very subtle at all, and
> much of the narrative, such as the attack of the giant bird, is not very
> skillfully related -- the narrator tells what happened, but doesn't
> depict it very effectively. In sum, it's a DYNAMITE concept, but not
> that great an execution. I'm moving this story a few notches down in the
> pantheon.
>
Some of Ellison's work, like a lot of older science fiction, doesn't hold up
quite as well. IHNMAIMS among them. My guess is because when you first read
it your young and under-read and easily wowed by the strength of Ellison's
ideas. When you return to it later in life you've read more and expect more
from a writer than just a good idea. You come to expect a certain degree of
style with your ideas. And certain stories no longer seem as impressive as
the once did. I think it's more a case of the maturity and worldness of the
reader, than the work of the writer. At least in my experience.
> It sure is nice to be discussing Ellison's writing here, for once.
>
We need to discuss something between the flame wars and copyright debates.
Larry -
M. Davis
> becomes too unbelievable and comes off as "cartoonish" or absurd.
I actually I thought the basic premise, set, characterisation, the
relationship between the female and the narrator,etc of MEFISTO was very
good. I read the first 30 pages and was quite impressed, thought that it
was going to be very good, was intrigued as to how HE was going to wrap up
the story successfully. He didn't. Instead you have a load of overblown
fustian between the two characters, which lacks actually characterisation,
distinction of personalities, instead coming across like duelling Ellisons.
The disappointment, my sense of failure in the story is greater because the
conclusion does not work with what has gone before.
I think this is because MEFISTO is what was intended to be a novel "Shrikes"
from sometime in the early 80s. As the dedication at the end says, it was
completed as part of a personal debt on HE's part to Bob Bloch.
Unfortunately, instead of HE completing the novel, and the amount of detail,
breadth, etc in the first 30 page is what one expects of a novel, instead
the confrontation in the last 10 pages throws all that away.
Matthew Davis
Larry, the Other White Meat
M. Davis <mic...@michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8j081r$9tv$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Larry, the Other White Meat <globa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >
> > In other stories (At the Mouse Circus, or Mefisto in Onyx) the premise
> > becomes too unbelievable and comes off as "cartoonish" or absurd.
>
> I actually I thought the basic premise, set, characterisation, the
> relationship between the female and the narrator,etc of MEFISTO was very
> good. I read the first 30 pages and was quite impressed, thought that it
> was going to be very good, was intrigued as to how HE was going to wrap up
> the story successfully. He didn't. Instead you have a load of overblown
> fustian between the two characters, which lacks actually characterisation,
> distinction of personalities, instead coming across like duelling
Ellisons.
> The disappointment, my sense of failure in the story is greater because
the
> conclusion does not work with what has gone before.
The main thing about Mefisto that irked me was that the whole thing bore no
relation to reality. Yes, I know its fantasy, but for fantasy to be somewhat
real it must be rooted in reality. And the way Harlan depicted the legal
system, the killer's state of mind, ect just belied his ignorance of the
subject. Or seemed to. Like David mentioned with IHNMAIMS great idea, poor
execution.
I wrote a much longer critique detailing all the flaws in the piece. You
should be able to find it on Deja or Remarq.
Larry -
Brian Siano
"Larry, the Other White Meat" wrote:
> The main thing about Mefisto that irked me was that the whole thing bore no
> relation to reality. Yes, I know its fantasy, but for fantasy to be somewhat
> real it must be rooted in reality. And the way Harlan depicted the legal
> system, the killer's state of mind, ect just belied his ignorance of the
> subject. Or seemed to. Like David mentioned with IHNMAIMS great idea, poor
> execution.
What surprised me was Harlan's mention of the guy who
built the electric chair in the state prison-- Fred Leuchter. At the
time, I'd done some piece on Holocaust Revisionists for _The
Humanist_, and I'd known about Leuchter's rep among
that crowd as well. Always wondered if Harlan knew that at
the time. (He probably does now-- check out the Errol
Morris documentary _Mr. Death_.)
--
Brian Siano - bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
Larry, the Other White Meat
Brian Siano <bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3953AC24...@cceb.med.upenn.edu...
>
>(He probably does now-- check out the Errol
> Morris documentary _Mr. Death_.)
>
That's a good documentary regardless. Creepy, yet good.
Larry -