CHOW - aFfC- Arianne II (or, "I am the Prince of Dorne. Men Seek My Favor")
rmb...@gmail.com
The Princess in the Tower/Arianne II (?) - "I am the Prince of Dorne.
Men Seek My Favor"
This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) post, part of alt.fan.grrm's
coordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and
links to previous CHOW threads see:
http://flooble.net/chow/
One of my favorite chapters! Here we go.
What Occurred:
Our new dearest hot-blooded, hot-headed, short-sighted sexually-
liberated princess is in jail. Arianne Martell is locked in a sweet
suite in the top of one of the highest towers in Sunspear, the Spear
Tower.
Why? Because her retarded schemes to provoke a war with the Lannisters
came apart at the seams (see - the Spoiled Knight, The Queenmaker).
She is rather concerned that her father, Prince Doran the Gouty, might
actually have the balls to have her executed, even if she is his blood
and all. She thought about throwing herself at his wheeled mercy and
weeping; that would cause him to forgive her (or something - this is
Arianne. Her ideas aren't always so coherent).
She muses that all the way back from the Greenblood, she pleaded with
Areo Hotah to understand her motives, but he doesn't care. When they
return to Sunspear he gives her over to the custody of Ser Manfrey
Martell, the castellan(1) Ricasso, the seneschal. They are all being
deferential, but won't give her any answers. They tell her to wait for
her father's pleasure.
She demands to know what happened to her posse of conspirators: Garin,
Drey, Spotted Sylva, etc. Hotah tells them they were taken to Ghaston
Grey, the Dornish equivalent of Devil's Island or Azkabhan, a
crumbling, miserable castle perched upon a rock into the middle of the
sea. She tried to plead for them, saying that being confined there
will kill they and all they did was follow her orders - please let
them go. Hotah is not moved; they also await Doran's pleasure.
They lead her up, way up in the Spear Tower, to very near the top of
its hundred and fifty feet (2), and she wonders if her cousins are
imprisoned in the cells she passes on the way up.
They get to the Princess Suite at the top -
"Large and airy, and did not lack for comforts. There were Myrish
carpets on the floor, red wine to drink, books to read. In one corner
stood an ornate cyvasse table with pieces of carved ivory and onyx,
though she had no one to play with if she had been so inclined. She
had a featherbed to sleep in, and a privy with a marble seat,
sweetened by a basketful of herbs. This high up, the views were
splendid. One window opened to the east, so she could watch the sun
rise above the sea. The other allowed her to look down upon the Tower
of the Sun, and the Winding Walls and the Threefold Gate beyond."
Nice, except for the fact that she is locked in, the door 'closed and
barred.'
She tries to amuse herself by exploring, but it took less time than it
would for her tie her shows (although, this being Arianne, that could
be longer than you might think). She starts washing her face with the
clean, cool water provided, and starts doing so compulsively a la Lady
Macbeth, but she can't wash away her grief - she is actually
remorseful for the way she got Ser Arys Oakheart killed, she really is
(2). She obsesses over the way his head went spinning mid-air,
unattached. Ick.
She cries herself to sleep, thinks of her nights in the sack with Arys
and tries to will it all away, and return to way things were. She
starts becoming fixated on the fact that one of her own dear clique
ratted them out ("'Someone told, someone always tells,' said Areo
Hotah"). She is frantic as they were all her best friends and all. She
is also aghast at the fact that Myrcella Baratheon was wounded, and
that was also the work of one of her best friends too - that really
upset her.
She finds that some of her clothes had been sent up as well, so she
decides the next morning to dial up the 'slut' knob to eleven and
dress in her skimpiest dress, laced wisps of silk that 'covered
everything but hid nothing' (3) . She figured seeing his daughter
dressed like a skank would 'discomfit' her father when he called for
her to 'chastise her.' (4)
He doesn't send for here, but yummy food is sent up - kid roasted with
lemon and honey, grape leaves stuffed with a melange of raisons,
onions, mushrooms and fiery dragon peppers (this is Dorne, after all).
She refuses the food in solidarity for her friends eating ship's
biscuits in Azkabah....er, Ghaston Grey. She haughtily sends away the
tray of food and tells them to bring them Prince Doran.
Unsurprisingly, he is not brought up on a tray.
She crawls into bed and starts obsessing again - someone told. Garin?
Drey? Spotted Sylva? They were all as dear to her as Tyene, her
cousin. What about the Darkstar? He did want to kill her rather than
crown her - that would start the war just the same he said to her
once, but it made no sense for him to betray her *and* try to kill
Myrcella (or does it?) (5).
Someone told. Could it have been Ser Arys? Did he have a crisis of
conscious, duty over lust? She recriminates herself again for what she
did to him, her 'white knight.' Did he pick the princess he served
over the princess he loved?
She tried to change her mental subject by leafing through the books
left for her, but they suck: dry historical tomes, geographies, maps,
histories of Dorne, "the Seven-Pointed Star" (their "Bible"), and
"Lives of the High Septons." (6) She would rather they had left her
with "The Loves of Queen Nymeria" or 'the Ten Thousand Ships" (7).
Alas, no. textbooks and religious passages only.
She watches the 'great dome of gold and colored glass below her '(the
Tower of the Sun, right?) Where her father literally holds court and
wonders when he will send for her. Only servants visit Her - including
one older servant who was her mother's bedmaid, Belandra. They would
bring her whatever food or drink she desired, but would not speak to
her, or let her see anyone else.
Still, as royalty, she is being bathed every other day, and one of the
servants, Cedra, is sent to brush and style her hair. She asks Timoth
after Myrcella, who last she saw was bleeding, bandaged and feverish;
she is afraid she might have died, please tell her something - no
response.
She tries to work Belindra, tugging on her heartstrings, "out of
loyalty to her mother" no response. She starts to wonder if this how
her father would torment her, not with the rack or hot iron, but with
simple silence. She contemptuously decides that would be like her
father, thinking himself subtle but really being feeble. (8)
She again tries to change her mental subject away from Ser Arys, and
starts thinking about the Sand Snakes, her cousins - She is very close
with them, closest of all with Tyene (the sweet, pious-seeming one who
looks like a Septa, but will stab you with a poisoned needle), since
they are the same age. Arianne barely knows her brother Quentyn, who
was raised at Yronwood, and Trystane is much younger.
She and Tyene and even Nym, (Nymeria - the haughty, gorgeous regal
one, daughter of a Volantene noblewoman) would often hang with her as
well, and sometimes so did Sarella (the tomboyish daughter of a Summer
Islander who is currently pretending to be a man at the Citadel) would
"push in where she didn't belong."
Tyene and she did everything together - they learned to read together,
got drunk the first time together, shared clothing and jewels, and
were even going share the same man for their "first time" but Drey,
ummm... got too excited and was done before they got started when
Tyene touched him (not that there is anything wrong with that, it
happens to lots of guys....) - Tyene's hands can be dangerous.
She starts screaming out the window for her cousins, thinking they
could hear her from their cells also within the Spear Tower; no
response. She screams herself hoarse.
By the time a fortnight passes (fortnight=two weeks) she is going stir
crazy. She starts trying to bully the servants into letting her see
her father. No response. She tries to escape when Belindra brings her
breakfast, knocking her platter of spiced eggs all over the wall. She
is caught and dragged back up kicking and screaming like a little
girl.
She decides to be more subtle, trying to influence Cedra, the silly,
vapid little maid who had an infatuation with Garin who slept with
her, suggesting that Garin would be executed unless Cedra agrees to
secret out a message for Arianne. Cedra agrees.
Arianne is trying to think to whom she should send a message - Anders
Yronwood, who bears some cool titles, "Lord of Yronwood and Warden of
the Stone Way, the Blood Royal" (9) was the most powerful Dornish
lord (10), but his loyalties would probably be with Quentyn, whom he
raised as a fosterling/hostage. Knight of Lemonwood, Ser Denziel Dalt,
wanted to marry her, but he would side with Prince Doran over her any
day, as would Lord Spotswood, Sylva's father. Her two best options are
Lord Fowler, father to her twin-sister companions Jeyne and Jennelyn
(11) (he also has a nifty title, 'Warden of the Prince's Pass' [12])
or Lord Harmen Uller, Lord of the Hellholt, who was Elaria Sand's
father and grandfather to some of the Sand Snakes - the youngest four,
all daughters of Prince Oberyn and Ellaria. Although, then again, Lord
Folwer's girls were best friends with Nym... what to do, what to do.
She dithers about to whom she should send the letter to for days.
Arianne settles on Lord Fowler, rips a page out of the Seven-Pointed
Star and writes a note that the man who delivers this letter should be
given awarded a fat purse of a hundred pieces of silver. She then
gives Cedra instructions to go down to where the caravans depart
across the 'deep sands,' near the Threefold Gate, and find someone
headed toward the Prince's Pass. Cedra agrees and takes the note.
Days pass. Cedra doesn't return. They send up two sisters to bathe her
and dress her hair, who wouldn't tell her anything about anything, not
even if Cedra was sick or had run off. She takes out her frustration
on Timoth, and pours wine over his head - nothing is working. She
wishes her father was as progressive with her as Oberyn had been with
his daughters, telling them to love and bed who they wished, and
teaching them to use weapons and to fight and marry whom they wanted
to marry.
She's jealous because she knows as Doran's daughter and (legal) heir,
she didn't have that luxury; she was destined for a political
marriage. She once tried to seduce 'King Robert's brother' when he
visited, but she was 'half a girl' and Lord Renly was more bemused
then enticed (13). She was pleased when Lord Tully invited her to
Riverrun to meet his heir (Edmure); she even went to the Sept lit
candles to the Maid in gratitude, but her father forbade her going.
She even 'considered' the crippled heir to Highgarden, but her father
wouldn't let her go to meet him. She and Tyene tried to sneak out and
go anyway, but they were caught by Prince Oberyn and brought back.
Meanwhile, Doran did 'tried to betroth' her to old, toothless,
decrepit Lord Ben Beesbury who was eighty. He died before the
betrothal could take place. Doran paraded her before a bunch of
elderly lords as potential husbands (including hacky, coughy Lord
Gyles Rosby), all causing Arianne to have a serious case of "what the
fucks?"). She wonders if that will be her fate, to married off to
some old man like Lord Estermont. She assumes that her father's
maester is drawing up the official documents naming Quentyn as heir to
Sunspear.
Still, no one comes, No one speaks to her. She starts to turn against
herself. She deserves to die a traitor's death for what she did. She
decides to go on a hunger (and hygiene) strike - refusing to eat,
bathe, rise from bed. The food still came, and would fling it out the
window because it is so tempting when she is trying to kill herself by
starvation.
Many more days pass by. Finally, Areo Hotah tells her that Prince
Doran has sent for her. Arianne thinks she is dreaming, and remarks he
called her 'little princess' as he did when she was a child. To her
credit, her first thought was 'what did you do with Cedra?" (14)
(she's fine at the Water Gardens).
She bathes, asks for a light meal of bread, cheese, broth and fruit
which she eats, and dresses in a maidenly white linen gown. She is
finally brought to father, in his solar, where he is seated before a
cyvassse table, his purple, turgid legs propped up on a cushioned
footstool (15). He looks like hell, worse than she remembered; seeing
him so ill makes her forget the dramatic entry and plea she wanted to
make....
Doran is futzing with the cyvasse pieces, talking about their
strangeness and cleverness and subtlety. He sends away Areo Hotah and
acknowledges her at last. He asks if she enjoyed the cyvasse game they
put in her room; she responds she couldn't she had no one to play with
- how could she have?
Doran tells her she should have played with herself (no, Chucky, not
like that), and the best way to learn a game is study it well. He asks
her about how well she knows the game? She says well enough to play.
He counters but well enough to win, mentions his brother who loved a
fight for its own sake, but that is not him. He finally ask her "why?"
"Tell me why, Arianne, why?"
She says for the honor of House Martell, someone had to do something.
They keep getting played, the Martells, and her father's voice sounded
so weak and tired. She wants him pissed off, raging, has he forgotten
what happened to Oberyn?
A clever bit of dialogue - "my brother is with me whenever I close my
eyes." "Telling you to open them, no doubt." Ha! Good one, Arianne.
She sits at the table, and he says he hasn't given her leave to sit.
She tells him to have her whipped for insolence. He declines. She asks
what happened to Myrcella? She learns she is not dead, but lost an
ear, is very sick and feverish and has a hideous facial scar now. He
asks why she included the Darkstar. He is the "most dangerous man in
Dorne." (16)
He tries to shame her, Myrcella was his ward, was to marry his son,
why did she do what she did? She says she wanted to start a war,
that's why/ He chides her, and tells that she should know better -
Dorne is weaker and less populated than people think; Dacron the
Conqueror flattered himself by making Dorne seem more powerful than it
was to increase his glory. He asks what he is to do with her.
She flings back in his face "Do what you always do. Nothing!" They
bicker in highbrow clever ways. She asks who it was that told; he will
not tell her - "I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor."
Arianne asks for leniency for her friends, who only did what they did
for love of her. He tells her that they are not actually rotting on
Ghaston Grey, he has made arrangements for them, because although he
could have had them executed, they are from powerful families: Ser.
Andre (Drey) was sent to serve Lady Mellario in Norvos, Garin was sent
to Tyrosh and his kin paid in fines and hostages, and Lady Sylva was
married to old, decrepit Lord Estermont. He asks what she did to Ser.
Arys, a Knight of the Kingsguard, to get him to betray his vows?
Arianne says that she 'fucked him, after all, you [Doran], did command
her to entertain her guests.' Ha! Another good one, Arianne. She adds
that she told him they would marry when Myrcella was queen and release
him from his vows. She is miserable that he died for her.
Doran tells her that he may not be the last, that Ser Balon Swann,
also of the Kingsguard, is en route even now to see Princess Myrcella
(17). Doran has his lords and ladies delaying him by hosing feast and
tourneys in his honor, but sooner or later who will make it to
Sunspear and want to see the princess and speak with Ser Arys. What
will they tell him?
Arianne suggests that they tell Ser Balon that Ser Arys died defending
his princess against the Darkstar when he tried to kill her - that
should suffice....
...until he speaks to Myrcella, Doran counters. If Cersei learns what
happened, Arianne will get her war after all, and it won't be so good
for Dorne.
Arianne realizes that he needs her to help with Myrcella, that is why
he finally brought her out of her prison. She taunts him that she
could help, but why should she? Doran gets pissed in that quiet,
steely way - "I warn you, I am out of patience."
Arianne scoffs - out of patience? The man who was patient for his
enemies, waits for justice for Elia and Oberyn, you? Ha! Patience for
Lannisters but nor for her?!
This where the chapter turns great; he tells her that she is mistaking
patience for forbearance. He has worked for the downfall of Tywin
Lannister since the day he learned of Elia and her children, but it
seems that his dwarf son robbed him [Doran] of his true vengeance.
Still, war is coming, and thousands of men will join Tywin 'howling in
hell." He asks her if that is what she wanted?
She counters she wants her the Sand Snakes freed, she was Oberyn
avenged and she wants Dorne! He asks if she wants him dead, since
Dorne will be hers in time as is her rights.
She is skeptical - she tells him that she has always known that he
wanted to set her aside and name Quentyn the heir she found a document
years ago that made arrangements for the governance of Dorne while she
was out of the picture, plus all the insulting marriage proposals, and
refusing all of the good ones, and why, father, why is Quentyn off in
the Free Cities hiring mercenaries if he is supposed to be in
Yronwood? Hmmm?
He admits that he wanted Quentyn to follow after him, yes, but he made
"other arrangements" for her - she spits back she knows, Lord Rosby,
etc...
He tells her, patiently, that he made the piss-poor marriage
suggestions because he knew she would reject them, but he had to make
some of them, or else people would start wondering why he wasn't
trying to marry off his most eligible of daughters. He also dared not
bring any suitors she would accept, because she was *promised.*
Arianne's ears prick up - "promised, promised to who?"
He tells her that he would have told her, but she is just too close
with her cousins and she might have told one of them, and then they
would have told others, and the whole thing would be exposed.
She is confused? Who was this man? Why couldn't she know? He tells her
cryptically that it doesn't matter now, he is dead now. When she asks
how - gout, chills, old age, he tells her still even more cryptically
"it was a pot of gold." (18). So, the plan is ruined, and Dorne will
be hers after all, Quentyn has a harder road now - she still has no
idea what he is talking about.
She commands that he just tell her, she is sick of all the secrecy and
lies, just tell her or have her killed alongside her cousins. He is
miffed that she thinks he would harm his brother's children. He asks
her to think back to the days when she was a child in the pools at the
Water Gardens - remember a tall, green-haired girl? She was the Archon
of Tyrosh's daughter - Arianne could have been sent there to serve him
as an attendant as a girl, but Doran wouldn't take another of
Mellario's children from her.
Arianne is still not following - is that where Quentyn has gone? To
Tyrosh to go court the Archon's daughter? Doran replies that he is
curious to know how she learned that Quentyn is not at Yronwood, but
no, he hasn't gone to Tyrosh. He has gone to bring them back "their
hearts' desire." (19)
Let Discuss:
1) When they return to Sunspear he gives her over to the custody of
Ser Manfrey Martell, the castellan(1)
I presume he is some relative.
2) They lead her up, way up in the Spear Tower, to very near the top
of its hundred and fifty feet.
This is really high, right? Is this something that could be built in
the Middle Ages? Is this something that normal people could scale up
and down every day?
3) [She] dress[es] in her skimpiest dress, laced wisps of silk that
'covered everything but hid nothing' (3) .
Mus t be an import from Arad Doman
4) She figured seeing his daughter dressed like a skank would
'discomfit' her father when he called for her to 'chastise her.'
She's doing mental revolutions, first she'll plead and cry, no she'll
strut and discomfit him, later she rages and will defy him...
5) What about the Darkstar? He did want to kill her rather than crown
her - that would start the war just the same he said to her once, but
it made no sense for him to betray her *and* try to kill Myrcella (or
does it?)
Seriously - does that make sense for Ser Gerold Dayne to have been the
one to rat them out *and* try to kill Myrcella?
6) the books left for her, but they suck: dry historical tomes,
geographies, maps, histories of Dorne, "the Seven-Pointed Star" (their
"Bible"), and "Lives of the High Septons."
These are so obviously "educational" that they weren't chosen at
random. Doran was trying to make a point that she should have known
better regarding what Dorne is and is capable of.
7) She would rather they had left her with "The Loves of Queen
Nymeria" or 'the Ten Thousand Ships."
Those sound really cool, like the Iliad and the Odyssey.
8) She starts to wonder if this how her father would torment her, not
with the rack or hot iron, but with simple silence. She contemptuously
decides that would be like her father, thinking himself subtle but
really being feeble.
Actually, being given the silent treatment is a massively effective
punishment and means or coercion.
9) Arianne is trying to think to whom she should send a message -
Anders Yronwood, who bears some cool titles, "Lord of Yronwood and
Warden of the Stone Way, the Blood Royal"
Why is he called that, the 'Blood Royal'?
10) [Yronwood] was the most powerful Dornish lord (10), but his
loyalties would probably be with Quentyn.
I so enjoy that each of the main houses have a regional number two
house that is a major pain - Stark/Bolton, Tully/Frey, Tyrell/Florent,
etc....
11) Her two best options are Lord Fowler, father to her twin-sister
companions Jeyne and Jennelyn .
Jennelyn is a dreadful name.
12) ([Fowler] also has a nifty title, 'Warden of the Prince's Pass.'
It seems that many of the Dornish lords have specific guard duties
over the entries into Dorne through the mountains, Prince's Pass,
Boneway, Stone Way, etc...
13) [Arianne] once tried to seduce 'King Robert's brother' when he
visited, but she was 'half a girl' and Lord Renly was more bemused
then enticed (13).
Because he's gay. Ha! This is an unintentionally funny bit.
14) To her credit, her first thought was 'what did you do with
Cedra?"
It does say a lot that her first thoughts are for the girl she
enmeshed in her stupid plots.
15) She is finally brought to father, in his solar, where he is seated
before a cyvassse table, his purple, turgid legs propped up on a
cushioned footstool.
Is this a realistic portrayal of really bad gout? I dunno.
16) He asks why she included the Darkstar. He is the "most dangerous
man in Dorne."
But why? *Why* George, is he the most dangerous man in Dorne?
17) Doran tells her that he may not be the last, that Ser Balon Swann,
also of the Kingsguard, is en route even now to see Princess
Myrcella .
Actually, he is en route to remove her from Sunspear because Cersei is
disregarding the treaty made by Tyrion.
Any ideas how he was going to do that?
18) [Doran] tells [Arianne] still even more cryptically "it was a pot
of gold."
Arianne was pledges to marry Prince Viserys. One wonders how that
would have turned out. Yikes.
19) [Quentyn] has gone to bring them back "their hearts' desire."
To woo and wed Danaerys! Or at least, escort her home to reclaim the
throne! Doran, you fat, gouty, we didn't know you had it in you!
Sex-o-Meter:
Well, Arianne reminisces about her "(k)night in white satin," refers
to a three-way with Tyene and Drey that ended in a messy, unsatisfying
way, and dresses briefly like a strumpet. She flings her
"unchaste"relationship with Arys in her father's face, but considering
that this is Dorne and Princess Nympho here, well, I'll give it two
and half exposed nipples out of a possible five.
Gore-o-Meter:
We have some gruesome descriptions of Doran's purple, swollen legs,
feet and toes, and a casual reference to Arys Oakheart's messy
decapitation. Oh, and some scrambled eggs get splattered on the wall.
No real, on camera, bloodshed, though - I shall give it a scanty one-
third golbet o'blood, out of a possible five.
Laugh-o-Meter:
Arianne has a sharp, saucy tongue on her, and gets off some racy,
sharp rejoinders. Plus, the idea of her dresses in some sheer, silky
gown trying rub against Renly Baratheon to no avail is just rather
amusing. So, three droll japes out of a possible five mummer's farces.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called rmb...@gmail.com, and they
made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>She demands to know what happened to her posse of conspirators: Garin,
>Drey, Spotted Sylva, etc. Hotah tells them they were taken to Ghaston
>Grey, the Dornish equivalent of Devil's Island or Azkabhan, a
>crumbling, miserable castle perched upon a rock into the middle of the
>sea.
nObIzzard: Alcatraz!
>(2). She obsesses over the way his head went spinning mid-air,
>unattached. Ick.
In other news, Hotah is neat.
>ratted them out ("'Someone told, someone always tells,' said Areo
>Hotah").
See?
>By the time a fortnight passes (fortnight=two weeks)
Um ... yes? Who doesn't know this?
>marriage. She once tried to seduce 'King Robert's brother' when he
>visited, but she was 'half a girl' and Lord Renly was more bemused
>then enticed (13).
Hee hee.
>She is confused? Who was this man? Why couldn't she know? He tells her
>cryptically that it doesn't matter now, he is dead now. When she asks
>how - gout, chills, old age, he tells her still even more cryptically
>"it was a pot of gold." (18).
Heh.
>2) They lead her up, way up in the Spear Tower, to very near the top
>of its hundred and fifty feet.
>
>This is really high, right? Is this something that could be built in
>the Middle Ages? Is this something that normal people could scale up
>and down every day?
Less than fifty metres. About a third of the height of Ulm Cathedral:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm_Cathedral
So not very tall at all. Although possibly quite impressive in a
city/civilisation that builds mainly along the ground.
I would hope the Titan of Braavos is taller.
And yes, you could go up and down it every day. Janica says she walked
up to the top of Ulm when she went to see it, and it's three times as
tall, and Janica's not the world's most stair-friendly sort.
Especially not medieval stairs.
They're much bigger than stairs these days. I think it was because of
the codpieces people wore. Less chance of groinal tearing, so stairs
could be fucking huge.
>3) [She] dress[es] in her skimpiest dress, laced wisps of silk that
>'covered everything but hid nothing' (3) .
>
>Mus t be an import from Arad Doman
*sigh*
Rest in peace, Mister J.
>7) She would rather they had left her with "The Loves of Queen
>Nymeria" or 'the Ten Thousand Ships."
>
>Those sound really cool, like the Iliad and the Odyssey.
Nymeria, from what we hear (from Arya, for example), sounds like an
interesting historical figure.
>9) Arianne is trying to think to whom she should send a message -
>Anders Yronwood, who bears some cool titles, "Lord of Yronwood and
>Warden of the Stone Way, the Blood Royal"
>
>Why is he called that, the 'Blood Royal'?
nObRufus: He's the great, great, great, great, great, great, great,
great, great, great, great nephew of Jesus Christ.
>13) [Arianne] once tried to seduce 'King Robert's brother' when he
>visited, but she was 'half a girl' and Lord Renly was more bemused
>then enticed (13).
>
>Because he's gay. Ha! This is an unintentionally funny bit.
Unintentionally, you say.
>14) To her credit, her first thought was 'what did you do with
>Cedra?"
>
>It does say a lot that her first thoughts are for the girl she
>enmeshed in her stupid plots.
Especially pleasant, so soon after a Cersei chapter.
>Arianne was pledges to marry Prince Viserys. One wonders how that
>would have turned out. Yikes.
I would say that she would have been too fiesty, and would probably
have killed him ... but then, other Dornish princesses were married
off to Targaryens before, and they didn't do very well for themselves.
>Well, Arianne reminisces about her "(k)night in white satin,"
Heh.
>Arianne has a sharp, saucy tongue on her, and gets off some racy,
>sharp rejoinders. Plus, the idea of her dresses in some sheer, silky
>gown trying rub against Renly Baratheon to no avail is just rather
>amusing.
"Let me have just a little bit of peril."
Thanks, Rich. Another good one.
C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.
- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
John Vreeland
>
>
>The Princess in the Tower/Arianne II (?) - "I am the Prince of Dorne.
>Men Seek My Favor"
Women seek my flavor.
>2) They lead her up, way up in the Spear Tower, to very near the top
>of its hundred and fifty feet.
>
>This is really high, right? Is this something that could be built in
>the Middle Ages? Is this something that normal people could scale up
>and down every day?
It is not a fast climb unless you are in good shape. If you are not
used to climbing you will have to rest a lot.
For comparison, the Great pyramid at Giza was 481 feet high, but of
course that pile of blocks would never be confused with a tower.
Lincoln cathedral, finished about 1300--so almost contemporary with
the culture here--was 525 feet tall. I would say then that 150 feet
was quite doable.
>3) [She] dress[es] in her skimpiest dress, laced wisps of silk that
>'covered everything but hid nothing' (3) .
>
>Mus t be an import from Arad Doman
>
>4) She figured seeing his daughter dressed like a skank would
>'discomfit' her father when he called for her to 'chastise her.'
>
>She's doing mental revolutions, first she'll plead and cry, no she'll
>strut and discomfit him, later she rages and will defy him...
She just seems confused, to me.
>5) What about the Darkstar? He did want to kill her rather than crown
>her - that would start the war just the same he said to her once, but
>it made no sense for him to betray her *and* try to kill Myrcella (or
>does it?)
>
>Seriously - does that make sense for Ser Gerold Dayne to have been the
>one to rat them out *and* try to kill Myrcella?
Yes, actually. Consider this plot.
Darkstar wants to kill the Princess in order to foment a war. By
agreeing to Arianne's plot he gains access to her. By anonymously
reporting it to the Prince he sets up the necessary diversion and
justification for his act. He does not know where the surprise will
come, but he is on his guard, waiting. As soon as everyone is
distracted by the attack, he kills Myrcella, taking less blame than if
he had simply killed her outright but accomplishing the same goal: war
with the Lannisters.
>6) the books left for her, but they suck: dry historical tomes,
>geographies, maps, histories of Dorne, "the Seven-Pointed Star" (their
>"Bible"), and "Lives of the High Septons."
>
>These are so obviously "educational" that they weren't chosen at
>random. Doran was trying to make a point that she should have known
>better regarding what Dorne is and is capable of.
"Lives of the High Septons" does not sound very educational. Probably
mostly hagiographic rubbish. I think this is not so much a concerted
selection as it is a standard library for aristos. A baron with a
library like that would probably count himself among the literati. The
Reader is probably some sort of extreme exception.
>7) She would rather they had left her with "The Loves of Queen
>Nymeria" or 'the Ten Thousand Ships."
>
>Those sound really cool, like the Iliad and the Odyssey.
You base this on what? Sounds more like Malory's Mort D'Arthur to
me--in other words, escapist drivel for bored courtly nymphs.
>8) She starts to wonder if this how her father would torment her, not
>with the rack or hot iron, but with simple silence. She contemptuously
>decides that would be like her father, thinking himself subtle but
>really being feeble.
>
>Actually, being given the silent treatment is a massively effective
>punishment and means or coercion.
I think she is trying to fit it in with her prejudice. If her father
is doing it, then it is weak.
>9) Arianne is trying to think to whom she should send a message -
>Anders Yronwood, who bears some cool titles, "Lord of Yronwood and
>Warden of the Stone Way, the Blood Royal"
>
>Why is he called that, the 'Blood Royal'?
Probably of royal blood, meaning they are considered a source of
aristocrats if the main line dries up, though perhaps over time it has
simply become one of those fancy titles that families are loathe to
lose.
>10) [Yronwood] was the most powerful Dornish lord (10), but his
>loyalties would probably be with Quentyn.
>
>I so enjoy that each of the main houses have a regional number two
>house that is a major pain - Stark/Bolton, Tully/Frey, Tyrell/Florent,
>etc....
You cannot compare the Yronwood-Martel relationship to the
Stark-Bolton one.
>11) Her two best options are Lord Fowler, father to her twin-sister
>companions Jeyne and Jennelyn .
>
>Jennelyn is a dreadful name.
No it isn't. Kemal Ataturk had a wife named Jennelyn, however the
Turks spell it "Lâtife"
>12) ([Fowler] also has a nifty title, 'Warden of the Prince's Pass.'
>
>It seems that many of the Dornish lords have specific guard duties
>over the entries into Dorne through the mountains, Prince's Pass,
>Boneway, Stone Way, etc...
Renly had established a special commission he called "Warden of the
Prince's Ass" It wasn't filled very long, though.
>13) [Arianne] once tried to seduce 'King Robert's brother' when he
>visited, but she was 'half a girl' and Lord Renly was more bemused
>then enticed (13).
>
>Because he's gay. Ha! This is an unintentionally funny bit.
"In your bed she'll probably remain one." remains one of my favorite
lines.
>14) To her credit, her first thought was 'what did you do with
>Cedra?"
>
>It does say a lot that her first thoughts are for the girl she
>enmeshed in her stupid plots.
So she isn't inconsiderate, just hopelessly romantic.
>15) She is finally brought to father, in his solar, where he is seated
>before a cyvassse table, his purple, turgid legs propped up on a
>cushioned footstool.
>
>Is this a realistic portrayal of really bad gout? I dunno.
Really bad gout. yah. The flesh becomes saturated with crystals of
uric acid which destroy and enflame the joints. The skin overlying it
becomes so swollen and enflamed that any contact--even a thin
blanket--is painful.
It usually strikes the big toe first, but elbows and knees are not
uncommon. Prince Doran must have large deposits of uric acid (called
"tophi") under the skin around his joints. These are not so painful,
per se, but in his advanced case they probably restrict movement.
>16) He asks why she included the Darkstar. He is the "most dangerous
>man in Dorne."
>
>But why? *Why* George, is he the most dangerous man in Dorne?
Perhaps Prince Doran means that he is the most dangerous man,
individually. That does not contradict anything we have seen so far.
>17) Doran tells her that he may not be the last, that Ser Balon Swann,
>also of the Kingsguard, is en route even now to see Princess
>Myrcella .
>
>Actually, he is en route to remove her from Sunspear because Cersei is
>disregarding the treaty made by Tyrion.
>
>Any ideas how he was going to do that?
Is he just going to take her and say "sorry, the deal is off" ? She
would instantly become a hostage against Cersei, which is exactly the
sort of thing she wanted to avoid. Is he planning on ordering Aerys
Oakheart to assist him? Good luck with that. He brought some men
with him, surely, but unless there is a ship waiting for him there is
no way he can simply escape with her. Swann is no fool, however, and
would not simply march in and do something stupid, no matter what
Cersei wants.
>18) [Doran] tells [Arianne] still even more cryptically "it was a pot
>of gold."
>
>Arianne was pledges to marry Prince Viserys. One wonders how that
>would have turned out. Yikes.
Dany was under his thumb for some time, but she became the Dragon.
Arianne is not the Dragon but I find it hard to imagine her under his
thumb. I suspect that Viserys would have drank a lot and remained
feckless.
>19) [Quentyn] has gone to bring them back "their hearts' desire."
>
>To woo and wed Danaerys! Or at least, escort her home to reclaim the
>throne! Doran, you fat, gouty, we didn't know you had it in you!
He had to have something in him. No man could hold Dorne against this
tide of public opinion without having a set of big gouty stones.
>
>Gore-o-Meter:
>We have some gruesome descriptions of Doran's purple, swollen legs,
>feet and toes, and a casual reference to Arys Oakheart's messy
>decapitation. Oh, and some scrambled eggs get splattered on the wall.
>No real, on camera, bloodshed, though - I shall give it a scanty one-
>third golbet o'blood, out of a possible five.
>
Wait, this is a narrative. Nothing is "on camera." Any characters
recollections are just as valid as the author's current description of
events, especially when we get the character's emotional components
thrown in.
--
Two Creation Scientists can hold an intelligent conversation, if one of them is a sock puppet.
---John Vreeland(IEEE.org) http://rtmabc.blogspot.com
John Vreeland
wrote:
> "Let me have just a little bit of peril."
"I'll bet you're gay."
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called John Vreeland
<vree...@snotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>>7) She would rather they had left her with "The Loves of Queen
>>Nymeria" or 'the Ten Thousand Ships."
>>
>>Those sound really cool, like the Iliad and the Odyssey.
>
>You base this on what? Sounds more like Malory's Mort D'Arthur to
>me--in other words, escapist drivel for bored courtly nymphs.
Unlike the Iliad, which was manly escapism for the ancient equivalent
of NAMBLA.
>>10) [Yronwood] was the most powerful Dornish lord (10), but his
>>loyalties would probably be with Quentyn.
>>
>>I so enjoy that each of the main houses have a regional number two
>>house that is a major pain - Stark/Bolton, Tully/Frey, Tyrell/Florent,
>>etc....
>
>You cannot compare the Yronwood-Martel relationship to the
>Stark-Bolton one.
*points*
He just did.
I'll inform Scotty.
>>12) ([Fowler] also has a nifty title, 'Warden of the Prince's Pass.'
>>
>>It seems that many of the Dornish lords have specific guard duties
>>over the entries into Dorne through the mountains, Prince's Pass,
>>Boneway, Stone Way, etc...
>
>Renly had established a special commission he called "Warden of the
>Prince's Ass" It wasn't filled very long, though.
But regularly.
*snigger*
>It usually strikes the big toe first, but elbows and knees are not
>uncommon. Prince Doran must have large deposits of uric acid (called
>"tophi") under the skin around his joints.
Mmm. Toffee.
>>We have some gruesome descriptions of Doran's purple, swollen legs,
>>feet and toes, and a casual reference to Arys Oakheart's messy
>>decapitation. Oh, and some scrambled eggs get splattered on the wall.
>>No real, on camera, bloodshed, though - I shall give it a scanty one-
>>third golbet o'blood, out of a possible five.
>
>Wait, this is a narrative. Nothing is "on camera." Any characters
>recollections are just as valid as the author's current description of
>events, especially when we get the character's emotional components
>thrown in.
There's narrative and narrative. Flashback-gore is less gory than
right-then-and-there gore.
It's the sepia tones. Makes gore look less gory.
Jenny Chase
> The Princess in the Tower/Arianne II (?) - "I am the Prince of Dorne.
> Men Seek My Favor"
>
> Why? Because her retarded schemes to provoke a war with the Lannisters
> came apart at the seams (see - the Spoiled Knight, The Queenmaker).
>
> She counters she wants her the Sand Snakes freed, she was Oberyn
> avenged and she wants Dorne! He asks if she wants him dead, since
> Dorne will be hers in time as is her rights.
>
> She is skeptical - she tells him that she has always known that he
> wanted to set her aside and name Quentyn the heir she found a document
> years ago that made arrangements for the governance of Dorne while she
> was out of the picture, plus all the insulting marriage proposals, and
> refusing all of the good ones, and why, father, why is Quentyn off in
> the Free Cities hiring mercenaries if he is supposed to be in
> Yronwood? Hmmm?
It was really quite tragic that she saw that document. Obviously that
soured father-daughter relations (and it's hard to blame her for her
somewhat stupid and destructive actions as a result).
>
> She is confused? Who was this man? Why couldn't she know? He tells her
> cryptically that it doesn't matter now, he is dead now. When she asks
> how - gout, chills, old age, he tells her still even more cryptically
> "it was a pot of gold." (18). So, the plan is ruined, and Dorne will
> be hers after all, Quentyn has a harder road now - she still has no
> idea what he is talking about.
Viserys has now been dead for some time. You'd think Doran would have
come up with some alternative proposals - letting her meet Willas or
the little Arryn, for example. Or some cute guy of a reasonably
powerful bannerman family. Letting Arianne kick around the castle with
no clear idea of her role in life sounds like obvious trouble.
Maybe Doran was saving her to see what families would be powerful once
the civil war broke out, but it seems like a mistake.
> 14) To her credit, her first thought was 'what did you do with
> Cedra?"
>
> It does say a lot that her first thoughts are for the girl she
> enmeshed in her stupid plots.
Yes. She's daft, not mean.
>
> 15) She is finally brought to father, in his solar, where he is seated
> before a cyvassse table, his purple, turgid legs propped up on a
> cushioned footstool.
>
> Is this a realistic portrayal of really bad gout? I dunno.
Isn't gout quite strongly associated with eating too much meat and
drinking too much? Doran doesn't seem the type, somehow.
> 17) Doran tells her that he may not be the last, that Ser Balon Swann,
> also of the Kingsguard, is en route even now to see Princess
> Myrcella .
>
> Actually, he is en route to remove her from Sunspear because Cersei is
> disregarding the treaty made by Tyrion.
>
> Any ideas how he was going to do that?
I suppose he could always ask to have her back, please.
--Jenny
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
<pavann...@gmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>> She counters she wants her the Sand Snakes freed, she was Oberyn
>> avenged and she wants Dorne! He asks if she wants him dead, since
>> Dorne will be hers in time as is her rights.
>>
>> She is skeptical - she tells him that she has always known that he
>> wanted to set her aside and name Quentyn the heir she found a document
>> years ago that made arrangements for the governance of Dorne while she
>> was out of the picture, plus all the insulting marriage proposals, and
>> refusing all of the good ones, and why, father, why is Quentyn off in
>> the Free Cities hiring mercenaries if he is supposed to be in
>> Yronwood? Hmmm?
>
>It was really quite tragic that she saw that document. Obviously that
>soured father-daughter relations (and it's hard to blame her for her
>somewhat stupid and destructive actions as a result).
I don't know. It might be tending a bit in the direction of "Varys
knows all", but I was of the opinion that Gouty Martell was smart
enough not to let her see a document like that if it was going to do
anything he didn't want to happen. Anything he had planned for her
would ultimately be in her best interests, and the best interests of
Dorne. Couldn't there be some innocent explanation?
Of course, if he was that smart, he probably wouldn't have gout.
Unless he has a real problem giving up his pleasures. It seems to be a
Martell trait, after all. He likes food and drink, while his brother
prefers other stuff.
>Viserys has now been dead for some time. You'd think Doran would have
>come up with some alternative proposals - letting her meet Willas or
>the little Arryn, for example.
Maybe by the time Viserys died and they found out about what was going
on over there, they had also found out about the Lannister stuff and
Doran had gone on with this new plan of his.
>Or some cute guy of a reasonably
>powerful bannerman family. Letting Arianne kick around the castle with
>no clear idea of her role in life sounds like obvious trouble.
Too obvious!
But maybe Doran does have this blind spot.
>Isn't gout quite strongly associated with eating too much meat and
>drinking too much? Doran doesn't seem the type, somehow.
He eats a lot of fruit now, but that might have been a new regime
after he started getting sick. He strikes me as a definite lover of
his food and drink. He sits around and watches the children play. Now
that he's sick, he eats a lot of fruit instead.
Or, to be a little less clinical about it, maybe his favourite fruit
is a non-Earthly fruit of some sort that actually causes gout. Or
Westerosi gout/Dornish gout is caused by something else. We don't
know. One way or another, he has it.
Jenny Chase
wrote:
> Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:27:30 -0700 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
> the following stuff:
>
> >It was really quite tragic that she saw that document. Obviously that
> >soured father-daughter relations (and it's hard to blame her for her
> >somewhat stupid and destructive actions as a result).
>
> I don't know. It might be tending a bit in the direction of "Varys
> knows all", but I was of the opinion that Gouty Martell was smart
> enough not to let her see a document like that if it was going to do
> anything he didn't want to happen. Anything he had planned for her
> would ultimately be in her best interests, and the best interests of
> Dorne. Couldn't there be some innocent explanation?
It does look rather as if it backfired, if it was a cunning plot.
Arianne seems like a lady who you could rely on to cause trouble, but
couldn't predict what kind of trouble or to whom.
Arianne is an interesting parallel to Cersei - she's not as smart as
she thinks she is, she thinks she's entitled to rule, and her creative
pro-activeness really messes things up. (I'm mentioning the sexual
adventures separately, because there's something faintly misogynistic
about the way people reference Cersei's unchasteness as if it's a
negative character trait on a par with the rest of her behavioural
repertoire). Unlike Cersei, she is fundamentally well-meaning apart
from her belief that she is entitled to lead her country to war so
that she can rule instead of her younger brother.
Which is actually a pretty evil belief. GRRM isn't big on the
hereditary monarchy, is he.
>
> Of course, if he was that smart, he probably wouldn't have gout.
> Unless he has a real problem giving up his pleasures. It seems to be a
> Martell trait, after all. He likes food and drink, while his brother
> prefers other stuff.
Fair enough. He just seems smart enough to figure stuff like that
out.
>
> >Viserys has now been dead for some time. You'd think Doran would have
> >come up with some alternative proposals - letting her meet Willas or
> >the little Arryn, for example.
>
> Maybe by the time Viserys died and they found out about what was going
> on over there, they had also found out about the Lannister stuff and
> Doran had gone on with this new plan of his.
Which doesn't seem to make use of Arianne at all. Maybe he just forgot
her, or planned to use her to cement alliances after Quentyn and Dany
take over.
>
> >Isn't gout quite strongly associated with eating too much meat and
> >drinking too much? Doran doesn't seem the type, somehow.
>
> He eats a lot of fruit now, but that might have been a new regime
> after he started getting sick. He strikes me as a definite lover of
> his food and drink. He sits around and watches the children play. Now
> that he's sick, he eats a lot of fruit instead.
>
> Or, to be a little less clinical about it, maybe his favourite fruit
> is a non-Earthly fruit of some sort that actually causes gout. Or
> Westerosi gout/Dornish gout is caused by something else. We don't
> know. One way or another, he has it.
Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to point to Varys here.
Unless... it's not gout, it's poison meant to mimic the effects of
gout! Which the Sand Snakes fed him so he'd have to let Oberyn go to
Kings Landing!
Hey, it's as valid as any other thaery.
--Jenny
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
the following stuff:
>Arianne is an interesting parallel to Cersei - she's not as smart as
>she thinks she is, she thinks she's entitled to rule, and her creative
>pro-activeness really messes things up.
"Creative pro-activeness".
*hands Jenny the Best Euphemism for Evil Cuntness Award 2007*
>(I'm mentioning the sexual
>adventures separately, because there's something faintly misogynistic
>about the way people reference Cersei's unchasteness as if it's a
>negative character trait on a par with the rest of her behavioural
>repertoire).
Oh fuck's sake. There's nothing misogynistic about it. Jaime has the
same civilisation-destroying bad judgement in his sexual partners, and
it's not misanthropic to bloody well say so. It may not be a negative
trait on a par with her psychoses, but only *taken in a vacuum*. In
context, her sexual fucked-in-the-headness has caused more destruction
and misery than you're willing to accept.
>Unless... it's not gout, it's poison meant to mimic the effects of
>gout! Which the Sand Snakes fed him so he'd have to let Oberyn go to
>Kings Landing!
>
>Hey, it's as valid as any other thaery.
More than most.
arioch
pavann...@gmail.com says...
> Arianne is an interesting parallel to Cersei - she's not as smart as
> she thinks she is, she thinks she's entitled to rule, and her creative
> pro-activeness really messes things up. (I'm mentioning the sexual
> adventures separately, because there's something faintly misogynistic
> about the way people reference Cersei's unchasteness as if it's a
> negative character trait on a par with the rest of her behavioural
> repertoire). Unlike Cersei, she is fundamentally well-meaning apart
> from her belief that she is entitled to lead her country to war so
> that she can rule instead of her younger brother.
>
I don't think Arianne's damage is that she thinks she should rule Dorne,
but that she thinks her father is disowning her. Doran's drive to fool
the world about his true feelings has been so successful that even his
own daughter doesn't know how much he cares for her.
--aroich
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called arioch <em...@email.net>, and
they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>I don't think Arianne's damage is that she thinks she should rule Dorne,
>but that she thinks her father is disowning her. Doran's drive to fool
>the world about his true feelings has been so successful that even his
>own daughter doesn't know how much he cares for her.
I concur.
Now, I wonder if this will end up kicking him in the ass.
Jenny Chase
wrote:
> Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:51:40 -0700 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
> the following stuff:
>
> >Arianne is an interesting parallel to Cersei - she's not as smart as
> >she thinks she is, she thinks she's entitled to rule, and her creative
> >pro-activeness really messes things up.
>
> "Creative pro-activeness".
>
> *hands Jenny the Best Euphemism for Evil Cuntness Award 2007*
Thank you. I was trying hard with that one.
>
> >(I'm mentioning the sexual
> >adventures separately, because there's something faintly misogynistic
> >about the way people reference Cersei's unchasteness as if it's a
> >negative character trait on a par with the rest of her behavioural
> >repertoire).
>
> Oh fuck's sake. There's nothing misogynistic about it. Jaime has the
> same civilisation-destroying bad judgement in his sexual partners, and
> it's not misanthropic to bloody well say so. It may not be a negative
> trait on a par with her psychoses, but only *taken in a vacuum*. In
> context, her sexual fucked-in-the-headness has caused more destruction
> and misery than you're willing to accept.
Sure - but there's something misogynistic about calling her a whore or
a slut, when you wouldn't call Tyrion or Oberyn the same. She's not a
nice person, but it isn't due to having multiple sexual partners, and
I wonder if you'd use equivalent terms to describe a promiscuous man.
Maybe you would. I dunno. But it bothers me *why* people diss Cersei.
--Jenny
Ilya the Recusant
She *is* a slut and a whore. Tyrion is a disfigured human stump who
has been known to bed women that he either (i) thought were not whores
(his first wife), (ii) Whores who loved him*, or The Band of the Hand.
Do the math. Cersei compromised her body to get what she wanted by
fulfilling the sexual desires of others. That's what whores usually
do. Render services in exchange for something. Sluts are just easy
girls who'll show off their body and sleep around a lot. Which also
describes Cersei.
If you're bothered, don't be. She's not worth your being bothered.
>--Jenny
Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
----
http://ohilya.livejournal.com/
*Let's face it, he thought Shae loved him, and was transcending
whoredome and earning money by fucking, to something approaching a
possible, stable relationship.
Jenny Chase
So Tyrion has very bad judgement when it comes to sex (and also a
tragic lack of options). He's not described as a kerb crawler (I'm
pretty sure there is a one-word, less modern word for 'people who
frequent prostitutes', but my vocabulary is proving too middle-class)
every time his name comes up. Even though this word would be as
strictly accurate as 'whore' for Cersei. Neither is a primary
characteristic.
Sluts are just easy
> girls who'll show off their body and sleep around a lot. Which also
> describes Cersei.
Sluts are just easy *girls*? Then what's the male equivalent, please?
And can we use it for Oberyn whenever the subject comes up? Does he
get off* relatively lightly because he's a more sympathetic character,
or because he's a man?
>
> If you're bothered, don't be. She's not worth your being bothered.
a. There's little else going on on the ng...
b. Seriously, there is a discrepancy between how the world habitually
refers to female promiscuity and how it refers to male promiscuity.
>
> *Let's face it, he thought Shae loved him, and was transcending
> whoredome and earning money by fucking, to something approaching a
> possible, stable relationship.
Agreed, Tyrion's love life is a tragedy, happening to a sympathetic
character.
--Jenny
*in a manner of speaking
dlods...@deso.mod.uk
> b. Seriously, there is a discrepancy between how the world habitually
> refers to female promiscuity and how it refers to male promiscuity.
Oh yes, granted, it's a huge hypocracy.
But one possible explanation for this would be that it's relatively
easy for women to sleep around - men being what they are. Just walk
into any bar and shout "Come and get it, guys!" and you'll see what I
mean.
For men, it's generally much more difficult. When guys can and do,
it's quite an achievement.
You applaud a toddler for using the toilet, but you shout at an adult
for not doing so. Same difference.
Ilya the Recusant
>On 8 Nov, 12:56, Ilya the Recusant <q...@deadspam.net> wrote:
>> In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, Jenny Chase
>So Tyrion has very bad judgement when it comes to sex (and also a
>tragic lack of options). He's not described as a kerb crawler (I'm
>pretty sure there is a one-word, less modern word for 'people who
>frequent prostitutes', but my vocabulary is proving too middle-class)
>every time his name comes up. Even though this word would be as
>strictly accurate as 'whore' for Cersei. Neither is a primary
>characteristic.
For fuck's sake, just call him a male whore.
>Sluts are just easy *girls*?
As opposed to prostitutes who engage in sex for the financial
transcation of money, yes.
>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>And can we use it for Oberyn whenever the subject comes up? Does he
>get off* relatively lightly because he's a more sympathetic character,
>or because he's a man?
Who said Oberyn gets off? If a guy sleeps around with anyone or
anything, he's going to get the same treatment from me as a female.
>> If you're bothered, don't be. She's not worth your being bothered.
>
>a. There's little else going on on the ng...
Write some CHOWs.
(Or reread the damn books, as I've been meaning to do for some time)
>b. Seriously, there is a discrepancy between how the world habitually
>refers to female promiscuity and how it refers to male promiscuity.
Don't encourage either. Male sexual conquest is boring. A bloke who
can find a way to please one woman deserves far more praise than the
burk who can't please any, except with his cock.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
the following stuff:
>> >Arianne is an interesting parallel to Cersei - she's not as smart as
>> >she thinks she is, she thinks she's entitled to rule, and her creative
>> >pro-activeness really messes things up.
>>
>> "Creative pro-activeness".
>>
>> *hands Jenny the Best Euphemism for Evil Cuntness Award 2007*
>
>Thank you. I was trying hard with that one.
I could see the e-sweat beading on your e-brow.
>> >(I'm mentioning the sexual
>> >adventures separately, because there's something faintly misogynistic
>> >about the way people reference Cersei's unchasteness as if it's a
>> >negative character trait on a par with the rest of her behavioural
>> >repertoire).
>>
>> Oh fuck's sake. There's nothing misogynistic about it. Jaime has the
>> same civilisation-destroying bad judgement in his sexual partners, and
>> it's not misanthropic to bloody well say so. It may not be a negative
>> trait on a par with her psychoses, but only *taken in a vacuum*. In
>> context, her sexual fucked-in-the-headness has caused more destruction
>> and misery than you're willing to accept.
>
>Sure - but there's something misogynistic about calling her a whore or
>a slut, when you wouldn't call Tyrion or Oberyn the same.
Um?
I never did. I thought it was funny that she calls other women those
names, when she is guilty of worse.
But if it comes to that, I have no problem branding Tyrion or Oberyn
as sluts. It just doesn't have the same negative impact when you say
it about a guy. The world is fair like that.
Of course, Janica adds that at no point does Tyrion act as rottenly
towards his sexual partners as Cersei does. Nor does he use sex to get
what he wants. I have to admit it would be funny if he did.
*Tyrion lies down on a chaise lounge, in tight velvet pants, rolls
over and rubs ass*
"You want some of this?"
>She's not a
>nice person, but it isn't due to having multiple sexual partners, and
>I wonder if you'd use equivalent terms to describe a promiscuous man.
>
>Maybe you would. I dunno. But it bothers me *why* people diss Cersei.
The thing isn't that sexual adventures/misadventures are a bad thing
and her engaging in them are what make Cersei bad. It is simply that
Cersei is a bad person, and most of her worst deeds stem directly from
her sexual tastes. They're so interlinked, she can't help but give sex
a bad name. It's like Joffrey. He can take something as innocent as
two kids having a swordfight with sticks, and turn it into a debacle
where a kid gets her pet killed for no reason. It's not because of the
stick-fighting. It's because an evil cunt was involved in the
stick-fight.
Heh. Stick-fight.
*takes award off Jenny and places it on own mantlepiece*
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Jenny Chase
the following stuff:
>> >Sure - but there's something misogynistic about calling her a whore or
>> >a slut, when you wouldn't call Tyrion or Oberyn the same. She's not a
>> >nice person, but it isn't due to having multiple sexual partners, and
>> >I wonder if you'd use equivalent terms to describe a promiscuous man.
>>
>> >Maybe you would. I dunno. But it bothers me *why* people diss Cersei.
>>
>> She *is* a slut and a whore. Tyrion is a disfigured human stump who
>> has been known to bed women that he either (i) thought were not whores
>> (his first wife), (ii) Whores who loved him*, or The Band of the Hand.
>> Do the math. Cersei compromised her body to get what she wanted by
>> fulfilling the sexual desires of others. That's what whores usually
>> do. Render services in exchange for something.
>
>So Tyrion has very bad judgement when it comes to sex (and also a
>tragic lack of options). He's not described as a kerb crawler (I'm
>pretty sure there is a one-word, less modern word for 'people who
>frequent prostitutes', but my vocabulary is proving too middle-class)
>every time his name comes up. Even though this word would be as
>strictly accurate as 'whore' for Cersei. Neither is a primary
>characteristic.
I can't remember the word "whore" ever really coming up when Cersei is
mentioned. She's not a whore, although she has certainly sold her
body.
I have no trouble calling Tyrion a curb-crawler, or whoremonger, or
anything else. He's a deformed little troll who has to pay for sex. If
we were in any way obliged to list his bad points, this could be among
them.
The thing is, Tyrion's flaws aren't often mentioned when talking about
him, because he's defined by his good qualities, not his bad ones.
Cersei *has no* good qualities.
And if you open your mouth to say anything about a single mother
struggling to make it in a man's world, please keep in mind that I
will put this frog in there.
*shows Jenny the frog*
>Sluts are just easy *girls*? Then what's the male equivalent, please?
*ahem*
That would be "stud", dear. Or "player", if you like.
*snigger*
>And can we use it for Oberyn whenever the subject comes up? Does he
>get off* relatively lightly because he's a more sympathetic character,
>or because he's a man?
First of all, he's not a greatly sympathetic character. That he's more
sympathetic than Cersei is about as meaningless a statement as you
could hope to come up with.
But by all means, use whatever sexually-degrading terms you want for
him. He's definitely a letch, as we mentioned in other threads before
now.
>b. Seriously, there is a discrepancy between how the world habitually
>refers to female promiscuity and how it refers to male promiscuity.
Heh. This is a newsgroup, not an oldsgroup.
Keep in mind, people may be willing to overlook Tyrion's constant
whoring and promiscuity, but you may have noticed how a great many
people jumped up and said, "ho ho, what a whoremongering pathetic
piece of shit" when Tywin was found with Shae in his room.
For all we know, Shae might have been the only woman Tywin had invited
to his bedchamber since the death of his wife lo all those years ago.
But we don't give a fuck, because Tywin was such a cruel, vicious,
hypocritical, mindless bastard.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
<q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>>Sluts are just easy *girls*?
>
>As opposed to prostitutes who engage in sex for the financial
>transcation of money, yes.
As the old saying goes, a slut is a girl who will sleep with
everybody. A bitch is a girl who will sleep with everybody except the
guy calling her a bitch.
>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>
>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
This man does not represent us.
Ilya the Recusant
Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:10:35 +1100 -
>there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>
>>>Sluts are just easy *girls*?
>>
>>As opposed to prostitutes who engage in sex for the financial
>>transcation of money, yes.
>
>As the old saying goes, a slut is a girl who will sleep with
>everybody. A bitch is a girl who will sleep with everybody except the
>guy calling her a bitch.
Bahahaha!
Nice saying.
>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>
>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>
>This man does not represent us.
Except biologically.
>C&J
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
<q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>>As the old saying goes, a slut is a girl who will sleep with
>>everybody. A bitch is a girl who will sleep with everybody except the
>>guy calling her a bitch.
>
>Bahahaha!
>
>Nice saying.
It loses a bit of punch when you phrase it in such a way as to avoid
referring to oneself.
>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>
>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>
>>This man does not represent us.
>
>Except biologically.
You're adopted, moron!
Ilya the Recusant
Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>
>>>As the old saying goes, a slut is a girl who will sleep with
>>>everybody. A bitch is a girl who will sleep with everybody except the
>>>guy calling her a bitch.
>>
>>Bahahaha!
>>
>>Nice saying.
>
>It loses a bit of punch when you phrase it in such a way as to avoid
>referring to oneself.
If only I had the genetalia for it.
>>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>>
>>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>>
>>>This man does not represent us.
>>
>>Except biologically.
>
>You're adopted, moron!
You and your little details!
Legally!
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
<q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>>>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>>>
>>>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>>>
>>>>This man does not represent us.
>>>
>>>Except biologically.
>>
>>You're adopted, moron!
>
>You and your little details!
>
>Legally!
This man does not represent us legally either!
Ilya the Recusant
Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>
>>>>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>>>>
>>>>>This man does not represent us.
>>>>
>>>>Except biologically.
>>>
>>>You're adopted, moron!
>>
>>You and your little details!
>>
>>Legally!
>
>This man does not represent us legally either!
ADOPTED!
*waves paperwork about madly*
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
<q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>>>>>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This man does not represent us.
>>>>>
>>>>>Except biologically.
>>>>
>>>>You're adopted, moron!
>>>
>>>You and your little details!
>>>
>>>Legally!
>>
>>This man does not represent us legally either!
>
>ADOPTED!
>
>*waves paperwork about madly*
But not a lawyer!
Herb, help me!
Ilya the Recusant
Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>
>>>>>>>>>Then what's the male equivalent, please?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stick with Male Slut. It's easy and everyone understands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This man does not represent us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Except biologically.
>>>>>
>>>>>You're adopted, moron!
>>>>
>>>>You and your little details!
>>>>
>>>>Legally!
>>>
>>>This man does not represent us legally either!
>>
>>ADOPTED!
>>
>>*waves paperwork about madly*
>
>But not a lawyer!
>
>Herb, help me!
You want help from a US'er? You know their laws don't apply in
Australia and Finland! Even if they are The World's Dumb Police.