CHOW: ADWD Tyrion I
John Vreeland
A Dance With Dragons
This is chapter Tyrion II
We last left Tyrion eating curiously unpoisoned mushrooms with
Magister Illyrio Mopatis of Pentos while the latter dropped hints
about the mother of Dragons.
Tyrion's story picks up with him sneaking out of Pentos with Illyrio
in his litter. Illyrio knows Daenerys has subjugated Astapor, Yunkai
and Meereen, and assumed that she will continue west, so he plans for
Tyrion to meet up with her in Volantis or someplace nearby. But until
then Illyrio will travel part way with Tyrion as they share a litter
and supplies from Illyrio's ample larder. [1]
The traveling is slow, even if it is down a Valeryan road, and so the
two of them manage to discuss a great deal of history.
According to Illyrio, he was a poor bravo when Varys approached him
for protection. The two of them worked out an arrangement whereby
Varys would fence stolen goods and Illyrio would sell them back to
their owners. But then Varys began to train his "mice" as he called
them then, small orphans he could teach to read and write, and Illyrio
became a very successful merchant. Varys was eventually called over
the narrow sea to aid a paranoid king who distrusted his son, his
wife, and especially his boyhood friend, a powerful Hand of the King
who had grown arrogant. But Tyrion was already familiar with that
part of the story. [2]
Autumn storm in the stepstones are too treacherous, as are the pirates
there. So they are traveling overland towards the Rhoyne in a convoy
of mules loaded with Illyrio's necessary provender.
Tyrion asks about some of the dangers along the way: river pirates
(not a serious threat) and "stone men," whom Illyrio does not want to
talk about, except to say they are "poor damned things." Of course
Martin gives no clue yet as to what the heck these stone men are
excepting Illyrio's reference to disease.
Another, different disease was the gray plague that took away
Illyrio's second wife (originally a pleasure slave from Lys. His
first wife had been a princess). It arrived in Pentos in a ship and
was spread by the escaping rats, killing 2000.
Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
litter. No explanation is offered.
At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
Illyrio explains the difference between Viserys and Daenerys, relating
how he never thought Daenerys would survive amongst the horselords,
and how Viserys tried to steal her maidenhead the night before the
wedding, almost undoing years of planning [which all failed anyway,
for different reasons.] But Illyrio makes the point that Dany is a
true dragon, unlike her brother.
SO, if Dany is traveling west she will have to cross 550+ leagues
deserts, mountains, swamps, and demon-infested ruins before she
arrives in Volantis, where she will meet Tyrion and Griff, a man who
is a sort of sellsword.
At another point Tyrion wonders again why the Valyrians never
conquered Westeros. Just Dragonstone, that little rock in the sea,
but no further.
Then they discuss "Griff," a sellsword who Illyrio claims to trust as
he would a brother, which strikes Tyrion as absurd.[*4*] He will meet
the Golden Company in Volantis and give it to Daenerys, which requires
some explanation. The Golden Company was founded by the forces of
Bittersteel & co., Blackfyre pretenders to the Iron Throne. When they
were first defeated a hundred years ago they formed the Golden Company
to keep the spirit alive and the forces intact. The last Blackfyre
pretender was slain on the Stepstones by none other than Barristan
Selmy [during the war of the Ninepenny Kings?] With the Blackfyres
gone, nothing remained to keep them from joining the Targaryens and
reclaiming their lands and titles. HOstory aside, Illyrio insists
that Griff is a different sort of sellsword, who has a son "Young
Griff" he dotes on. "There never was a nobler lad."
At one point they stop in a place called Andalos (or the Flatlands),
where the Andals stopped for a while before continuing west across the
Narrow Sea. It leads to Tyrion recalling his studies when he had been
planning to become High Septon, a path he abandoned when he met Tysha.
There is a bit of history about Gohan Drohe, the Rhoynar city on the
Little Rhoyne that had been snuffed out by Valyria, and also mentioned
is the ancient [Andal?] realm of Hugor.
And a lot of reminiscing by Tyrion, who kills everyone in one one
dream or another. None of it seems very important but you never
know...I think Martin needs a better editor.
============
Well there wasn't much comedy, gore or sex in this one. Just random
bits of history and random clues about the future.
[1] They all still think Dany's on her way, naturally. Martin found a
good reason to delay her, though so I am not ready to object.
[2] Well, I just wanted to say that whoever said Illyrio would sell
his friends for a coin (Sallador Saan?) is probably wrong. Illyrio
has friendsand seems capable of keeping them. He married his bed
slave for love, for crying out loud, resulting in some political cost
to himself, an act that even Tyrion should be able to respect.
[3] This explanation is reasonable, but still one wonders. Clearly
Illyrio is wily enough to have something else at stake here. In any
event, he never had a deal with Daenerys and must rely upon her grace.
[4] Illyrio claims he trusts a lot of people, which he must be lying
about unless he trusts them because he has good reason to. In Griff's
case he obviously does.
--
Some aspects of life would be a lot easier if Creationists were required to carry warning signs. Fortunately, many of them already do.
Ben
> This is a Chapter of the Week (or whatever) for George R. R. Martin's
> A Dance With Dragons
>
> This is chapter Tyrion II
>
> Tyrion's story picks up with him sneaking out of Pentos with Illyrio
> in his litter. Illyrio knows Daenerys has subjugated Astapor, Yunkai
> and Meereen, and assumed that she will continue west, so he plans for
> Tyrion to meet up with her in Volantis or someplace nearby. But until
> then Illyrio will travel part way with Tyrion as they share a litter
> and supplies from Illyrio's ample larder. [1]
>
Curious that Illyrio has not gotten any information that Dany has
stalled. It's been literally months since she stopped coming West.
Given what we know about Illyrio's network, particularly concering
Dany, you would think he knew she had stopped. Then again, perhaps
part of sending Tyrion (and presumably he knows about Quentyn and
"Giff" going that way as well) is to spur her on to get her fine
little ass moving?
> The traveling is slow, even if it is down a Valeryan road, and so the
> two of them manage to discuss a great deal of history.
>
With these Valyrian roads reasonably effective presumably, straight
and well-conditioned, what the hell is going on with how long it
takes? Roman roads were used for almost a thousand years after they
were largely abandoned because they were the most efficient
transportation routes. The Valyrian roads seem to be made of
quicksand...
> According to Illyrio, he was a poor bravo when Varys approached him
> for protection. The two of them worked out an arrangement whereby
> Varys would fence stolen goods and Illyrio would sell them back to
> their owners. But then Varys began to train his "mice" as he called
> them then, small orphans he could teach to read and write, and Illyrio
> became a very successful merchant. Varys was eventually called over
> the narrow sea to aid a paranoid king who distrusted his son, his
> wife, and especially his boyhood friend, a powerful Hand of the King
> who had grown arrogant. But Tyrion was already familiar with that
> part of the story. [2]
>
This story seems a little bit conventional for these two, coming from
nothing to be mega-power players. There's gotta be more here to it.
>
> Tyrion asks about some of the dangers along the way: river pirates
> (not a serious threat) and "stone men," whom Illyrio does not want to
> talk about, except to say they are "poor damned things." Of course
> Martin gives no clue yet as to what the heck these stone men are
> excepting Illyrio's reference to disease.
>
We get to find out soon enough, a very interesting addition, and one
of the issues in this book that relates to other stories we have heard
in the past. We certainly learned more about greyscale in this book
than we did any of the principle characters (not including the few new
principles introduced in this book).
> Another, different disease was the gray plague that took away
> Illyrio's second wife (originally a pleasure slave from Lys. His
> first wife had been a princess). It arrived in Pentos in a ship and
> was spread by the escaping rats, killing 2000.
>
Very black plague-ish. Illyrio's first wife a princess? For a merchant-
bravo? Hmmm...
> Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
> litter. No explanation is offered.
>
Gun on the mantle, I thought at that point, but it never got fired.
> At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
> Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
> Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
> Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
> Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>
I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
here.
> Illyrio explains the difference between Viserys and Daenerys, relating
> how he never thought Daenerys would survive amongst the horselords,
> and how Viserys tried to steal her maidenhead the night before the
> wedding, almost undoing years of planning [which all failed anyway,
> for different reasons.] But Illyrio makes the point that Dany is a
> true dragon, unlike her brother.
>
But nobody appeared to know that originally. Viserys seemed to be the
one everyone placed their bets on, unless I was missing something.
> SO, if Dany is traveling west she will have to cross 550+ leagues
> deserts, mountains, swamps, and demon-infested ruins before she
> arrives in Volantis, where she will meet Tyrion and Griff, a man who
> is a sort of sellsword.
>
But she presumably had 10,000 Unsulled and a few mercenary companies
with her. Unlikely she would be bothered by men. Maybe illness would
have been an issue? Or perhaps she would be slowed by a refusal to
leave the paradise of Mereen?
> At another point Tyrion wonders again why the Valyrians never
> conquered Westeros. Just Dragonstone, that little rock in the sea,
> but no further.
>
I do admit that I was intrigued by the whole Valyria storyline, always
have been. I do hope that we don't go too far down that road, though.
We have enough distractions already.
> Then they discuss "Griff," a sellsword who Illyrio claims to trust as
> he would a brother, which strikes Tyrion as absurd.[*4*] He will meet
> the Golden Company in Volantis and give it to Daenerys, which requires
> some explanation. The Golden Company was founded by the forces of
> Bittersteel & co., Blackfyre pretenders to the Iron Throne. When they
> were first defeated a hundred years ago they formed the Golden Company
> to keep the spirit alive and the forces intact. The last Blackfyre
> pretender was slain on the Stepstones by none other than Barristan
> Selmy [during the war of the Ninepenny Kings?] With the Blackfyres
> gone, nothing remained to keep them from joining the Targaryens and
> reclaiming their lands and titles. HOstory aside, Illyrio insists
> that Griff is a different sort of sellsword, who has a son "Young
> Griff" he dotes on. "There never was a nobler lad."
>
Basically the Golden Company nearly single-handedly set another king
on the throne, one that did not appear to have too much support other
than this company, which was not at that point a mercenary group but
rather an army put together for their purpose. They appear by all
accounts to be the best there is at what they do. It would seem they
have kept out of the clash of kings yet for just this reason. I do
have to admit at this point I was like "Who f-ing cares about a
sellsword's kid?" It did not occur to me at this point that a major
character was being introduced (in fact two of them).
> At one point they stop in a place called Andalos (or the Flatlands),
> where the Andals stopped for a while before continuing west across the
> Narrow Sea. It leads to Tyrion recalling his studies when he had been
> planning to become High Septon, a path he abandoned when he met Tysha.
> There is a bit of history about Gohan Drohe, the Rhoynar city on the
> Little Rhoyne that had been snuffed out by Valyria, and also mentioned
> is the ancient [Andal?] realm of Hugor.
>
The Andals are the forefathers of the Starks specifically, no? The
Rhoynar are also the ancestors of the Dornish if I remember correctly?
> And a lot of reminiscing by Tyrion, who kills everyone in one one
> dream or another. None of it seems very important but you never
> know...I think Martin needs a better editor.
>
I think most of us can agree on that. His big literary dick is not
helping him out in this case. My guess is that someone is reading this
and making suggestions, but Martin at this point is not listening.
> ============
>
> Well there wasn't much comedy, gore or sex in this one. Just random
> bits of history and random clues about the future.
>
> [1] They all still think Dany's on her way, naturally. Martin found a
> good reason to delay her, though so I am not ready to object.
>
I don't necessarily agree, but we've talked about that already.
> [2] Well, I just wanted to say that whoever said Illyrio would sell
> his friends for a coin (Sallador Saan?) is probably wrong. Illyrio
> has friendsand seems capable of keeping them. He married his bed
> slave for love, for crying out loud, resulting in some political cost
> to himself, an act that even Tyrion should be able to respect.
>
I actually think that Illyrio is extremely dedicated to the Targaryen
cause. He has a lot to lose and doesn't seem to have all that much to
gain.
> [3] This explanation is reasonable, but still one wonders. Clearly
> Illyrio is wily enough to have something else at stake here. In any
> event, he never had a deal with Daenerys and must rely upon her grace.
>
Agreed, Illyrio has some horse in this race we don't yet know about,
or else he is REALLY loyal.
> [4] Illyrio claims he trusts a lot of people, which he must be lying
> about unless he trusts them because he has good reason to. In Griff's
> case he obviously does.
>
So is Griff the back-up plan at this point? Or have he and Dany always
been the primary plan. This is unlikely if Khal Drogo was actually
supposed to facilitate things, which he very nearly did if not for a
couple of terrible misjudgements on Dany's part. Would the Golden
Company have joined the Dothraki horde (again very unlikely)? Or would
they have moved in after the screamers presumably to clean up the
remains of whoever was left, Dothraki or Westerosi? I like that
Illyrio didn't put all his eggs in one basket, but I am curious what
his original plan was concerning "Griff".
Ben
John Vreeland
Roads are always more efficient than non-roads, even when they are in
terrible shape. The problem seems to be Illyrio's litter, which is
overburdened by Illyrio. His mule train is not built for speed
either.He probably takes the attitude that "It's the journey, not the
destination." And perhaps it is intentional on his part, to make sure
there is ample time to talk with the dwarf. Or perhaps it is
intentional on Martin's part, to make sure there is ample time to
listen to them talk.
>> According to Illyrio, he was a poor bravo when Varys approached him
>> for protection. The two of them worked out an arrangement whereby
>> Varys would fence stolen goods and Illyrio would sell them back to
>> their owners. But then Varys began to train his "mice" as he called
>> them then, small orphans he could teach to read and write, and Illyrio
>> became a very successful merchant. Varys was eventually called over
>> the narrow sea to aid a paranoid king who distrusted his son, his
>> wife, and especially his boyhood friend, a powerful Hand of the King
>> who had grown arrogant. But Tyrion was already familiar with that
>> part of the story. [2]
>This story seems a little bit conventional for these two, coming from
>nothing to be mega-power players. There's gotta be more here to it.
Well, Martin made a big deal about how important being able to read
people's letters is. That is what they did. A smart merchant can get
very rich reading people's letters.
>> Tyrion asks about some of the dangers along the way: river pirates
>> (not a serious threat) and "stone men," whom Illyrio does not want to
>> talk about, except to say they are "poor damned things." Of course
>> Martin gives no clue yet as to what the heck these stone men are
>> excepting Illyrio's reference to disease.
>>
>We get to find out soon enough, a very interesting addition, and one
>of the issues in this book that relates to other stories we have heard
>in the past. We certainly learned more about greyscale in this book
>than we did any of the principle characters (not including the few new
>principles introduced in this book).
>> Another, different disease was the gray plague that took away
>> Illyrio's second wife (originally a pleasure slave from Lys. His
>> first wife had been a princess). It arrived in Pentos in a ship and
>> was spread by the escaping rats, killing 2000.
>>
>Very black plague-ish. Illyrio's first wife a princess? For a merchant-
>bravo? Hmmm...
He is a merchant prince himself: a magister. He is one of the rulers
of Pentos, the actual prince chosen by them and executed by them if
they feel his luck has run out. The position of prince is somewhat
thankless. Recall that one of them ran away to join the Tattered Flag
instead of serve the city.
>> Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
>> litter. No explanation is offered.
>>
>Gun on the mantle, I thought at that point, but it never got fired.
He must have had a reason in mind at the time, but it might be
trivial. I still have no idea why it was mentioned.
>> At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
>> Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
>> Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
>> Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
>> Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>>
>I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
>Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
>We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
>priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
>here.
It _could_ be that he likes coins, and being the only Magister of
Westeros is more impressive than his current position. I think it is
enough of an explanation in itself, though he might have other things
in mind.
>> Illyrio explains the difference between Viserys and Daenerys, relating
>> how he never thought Daenerys would survive amongst the horselords,
>> and how Viserys tried to steal her maidenhead the night before the
>> wedding, almost undoing years of planning [which all failed anyway,
>> for different reasons.] But Illyrio makes the point that Dany is a
>> true dragon, unlike her brother.
>>
>But nobody appeared to know that originally. Viserys seemed to be the
>one everyone placed their bets on, unless I was missing something.
Yes. And no. Illyrio was using Dany and Viserys to gain the Khal's
horsemen, but otherwise he was only using Viserys to tie in Dorne with
a wedding match. Putting gormless Viserys on the throne would have
been crazy, but it would never have happened. They already had a
competent heir, so the loss of Viserys was just a nuisance.
>> SO, if Dany is traveling west she will have to cross 550+ leagues
>> deserts, mountains, swamps, and demon-infested ruins before she
>> arrives in Volantis, where she will meet Tyrion and Griff, a man who
>> is a sort of sellsword.
>>
>But she presumably had 10,000 Unsulled and a few mercenary companies
>with her. Unlikely she would be bothered by men. Maybe illness would
>have been an issue? Or perhaps she would be slowed by a refusal to
>leave the paradise of Mereen?
Tyrion and Illyrio assume there would be significant losses in the
journey. Most travel by ship.
>> At another point Tyrion wonders again why the Valyrians never
>> conquered Westeros. Just Dragonstone, that little rock in the sea,
>> but no further.
>>
>I do admit that I was intrigued by the whole Valyria storyline, always
>have been. I do hope that we don't go too far down that road, though.
>We have enough distractions already.
Of course the obvious suggestion is that the Valyrians knew Westeros
was a poisoned plum. So they put a watch on Dragonstone.
>> Then they discuss "Griff," a sellsword who Illyrio claims to trust as
>> he would a brother, which strikes Tyrion as absurd.[*4*] He will meet
>> the Golden Company in Volantis and give it to Daenerys, which requires
>> some explanation. The Golden Company was founded by the forces of
>> Bittersteel & co., Blackfyre pretenders to the Iron Throne. When they
>> were first defeated a hundred years ago they formed the Golden Company
>> to keep the spirit alive and the forces intact. The last Blackfyre
>> pretender was slain on the Stepstones by none other than Barristan
>> Selmy [during the war of the Ninepenny Kings?] With the Blackfyres
>> gone, nothing remained to keep them from joining the Targaryens and
>> reclaiming their lands and titles. HOstory aside, Illyrio insists
>> that Griff is a different sort of sellsword, who has a son "Young
>> Griff" he dotes on. "There never was a nobler lad."
>>
>Basically the Golden Company nearly single-handedly set another king
>on the throne, one that did not appear to have too much support other
>than this company, which was not at that point a mercenary group but
>rather an army put together for their purpose. They appear by all
>accounts to be the best there is at what they do. It would seem they
>have kept out of the clash of kings yet for just this reason. I do
>have to admit at this point I was like "Who f-ing cares about a
>sellsword's kid?" It did not occur to me at this point that a major
>character was being introduced (in fact two of them).
They have been the Blackfyre pretender's posse for a century, but the
Blackfyres are gone now, haveing been destroyed only a few years
before the Targaryens themselves were dethroned. The timing was close
to perfect.
If you recall from the last book, Qyburn told Queen Cersei that the
Golden Company was on the move but she was completely ignorant of
their history. I ony wonder why Qyburn did not explain it, perhaps
because they were known to be heading east, I cannot recall.
>> At one point they stop in a place called Andalos (or the Flatlands),
>> where the Andals stopped for a while before continuing west across the
>> Narrow Sea. It leads to Tyrion recalling his studies when he had been
>> planning to become High Septon, a path he abandoned when he met Tysha.
>> There is a bit of history about Gohan Drohe, the Rhoynar city on the
>> Little Rhoyne that had been snuffed out by Valyria, and also mentioned
>> is the ancient [Andal?] realm of Hugor.
>>
>The Andals are the forefathers of the Starks specifically, no? The
>Rhoynar are also the ancestors of the Dornish if I remember correctly?
No, the Starks are NOT descended from the Andals. Not culturally,
anyway. The Starks are descended from the First Men. And only SOME
of the Dornish are Rhoynish. The coastal Dornish. I forget what they
call themselves. The ones in the mountains are like Andals, the ones
in the deserts are probably descendants of the First Men, though they
have forgotten, and the ones in the rivers and coasts are Rhoynish.
>> And a lot of reminiscing by Tyrion, who kills everyone in one one
>> dream or another. None of it seems very important but you never
>> know...I think Martin needs a better editor.
>>
>I think most of us can agree on that. His big literary dick is not
>helping him out in this case. My guess is that someone is reading this
>and making suggestions, but Martin at this point is not listening.
>
>> ============
>>
>> Well there wasn't much comedy, gore or sex in this one. Just random
>> bits of history and random clues about the future.
>>
>> [1] They all still think Dany's on her way, naturally. Martin found a
>> good reason to delay her, though so I am not ready to object.
>>
>I don't necessarily agree, but we've talked about that already.
>
>> [2] Well, I just wanted to say that whoever said Illyrio would sell
>> his friends for a coin (Sallador Saan?) is probably wrong. Illyrio
>> has friendsand seems capable of keeping them. He married his bed
>> slave for love, for crying out loud, resulting in some political cost
>> to himself, an act that even Tyrion should be able to respect.
>>
>I actually think that Illyrio is extremely dedicated to the Targaryen
>cause. He has a lot to lose and doesn't seem to have all that much to
>gain.
i'm not sure he has a lot to lose yet, either. His effort is mostly
invisible here. I think he is simply enjoying himself.
>> [3] This explanation is reasonable, but still one wonders. Clearly
>> Illyrio is wily enough to have something else at stake here. In any
>> event, he never had a deal with Daenerys and must rely upon her grace.
>>
>Agreed, Illyrio has some horse in this race we don't yet know about,
>or else he is REALLY loyal.
>
>> [4] Illyrio claims he trusts a lot of people, which he must be lying
>> about unless he trusts them because he has good reason to. In Griff's
>> case he obviously does.
>>
>So is Griff the back-up plan at this point? Or have he and Dany always
>been the primary plan. This is unlikely if Khal Drogo was actually
>supposed to facilitate things, which he very nearly did if not for a
>couple of terrible misjudgements on Dany's part. Would the Golden
>Company have joined the Dothraki horde (again very unlikely)? Or would
>they have moved in after the screamers presumably to clean up the
>remains of whoever was left, Dothraki or Westerosi? I like that
>Illyrio didn't put all his eggs in one basket, but I am curious what
>his original plan was concerning "Griff".
Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
I was wondering who in Westeros they might have tried to marry Dany
to, but no one comes to mind. Dorne was willing to do it for revenge
but no one else of any power was left who might be willing to take
such a risk.
Jenny Chase
> On Aug 25, 9:19 pm, John Vreeland <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > This is a Chapter of the Week (or whatever) for George R. R. Martin's
> > A Dance With Dragons
>
> > for protection. The two of them worked out an arrangement whereby
> > Varys would fence stolen goods and Illyrio would sell them back to
> > their owners. But then Varys began to train his "mice" as he called
> > them then, small orphans he could teach to read and write, and Illyrio
> > became a very successful merchant. Varys was eventually called over
> > the narrow sea to aid a paranoid king who distrusted his son, his
> > wife, and especially his boyhood friend, a powerful Hand of the King
> > who had grown arrogant. But Tyrion was already familiar with that
> > part of the story. [2]
>
> This story seems a little bit conventional for these two, coming from
> nothing to be mega-power players. There's gotta be more here to it.
I'm wondering if this is a sorta egalitarian statement from GRRM. By
the nature of his feudal setting, most of the major characters are
nobles (at least minor ones). As well as having no influence, the
smallfolk realistically have no education and not much perspective, so
following their stories would be quite dull. GRRM goes beyond this by
having a few explicit examples of Blood is Destiny (the Targs, the
Starks being descended from the First Men) which cannot be explained
by the characters' upbringing. However, the little I know about GRRM's
politics suggests he's uncomfortable with this fantasy trope, and much
of the Dunk and Egg stories is about how an ordinary lad can teach
lessons to a prince. 'The Mystery Knight' contains a pretty strong
statement about 'who cares who his father is?'. Davos is continually
aware of his ignoble birth, but apart from an inability to read, he's
the best Kings' Hand Stannis could ask for. Ramsey has a complex about
being a bastard, which is probably not why the northmen hate and
despise him. The Brotherhood without Banners was all about the
smallfolk, and until they were hijacked by Catelyn, they were one of
the most sympathetic groups around.
Having Westeros secretly controlled by two smart smallfolk-grown-great
would be one in the eye for this repellent feudal convention. I also
think GRRM will leave Jon's parentage unspecified for this reason, and
at very least leave doubt about Aegon's parentage (if he thinks he's a
Targ, everyone else thinks hes a Targ, he's had a good education and
upbringing, does it matter if he's a random boy of Lyseni blood passed
off to Griff as Rhaegar's?)
> > Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
> > litter. No explanation is offered.
>
> Gun on the mantle, I thought at that point, but it never got fired.
He was just thinking about his dad again.
>
> > At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
> > Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
> > Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
> > Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
> > Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>
> I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
> Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
> We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
> priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
> here.
Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
At this point Illyrio seems more directed by whims of personal
affection than anything else. A mentally stable man wouldn't keep his
dead wife's diseased and presumably severed hands in his bedroom. Nor
would he tell anyone about it.
> > Illyrio explains the difference between Viserys and Daenerys, relating
> > how he never thought Daenerys would survive amongst the horselords,
> > and how Viserys tried to steal her maidenhead the night before the
> > wedding, almost undoing years of planning [which all failed anyway,
> > for different reasons.] But Illyrio makes the point that Dany is a
> > true dragon, unlike her brother.
>
> But nobody appeared to know that originally. Viserys seemed to be the
> one everyone placed their bets on, unless I was missing something.
It makes sense that they concentrated on the older, male one. Although
Viserys would have taken so well to meeting Aegon and being told he
was actually second in line to the throne.
Illyrio had three potential heirs, of similar ages, in play and didn't
introduce the two groups. To me this suggests he was waiting to find
out which was the best one to back.
> > And a lot of reminiscing by Tyrion, who kills everyone in one one
> > dream or another. None of it seems very important but you never
> > know...I think Martin needs a better editor.
>
> I think most of us can agree on that. His big literary dick is not
> helping him out in this case. My guess is that someone is reading this
> and making suggestions, but Martin at this point is not listening.
It's a shame. I don't want to whine because it was a good book, but in
particular Tyrion's storyline was overwritten. We get that he was not
sorry but emotionally affected by his actions, and cut loose from all
he's ever cared about, which seems to be the main point of his
chapters (with a side order of comic relief). No need to belabour it.
Jenny
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
>litter. No explanation is offered.
Isn't this the flashback-crossbow in his head as he kills his father?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
>to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
>those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
>tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
Maybe Daenarys and Viserys were just decoys to attract the eyes and
assassins? Viserys was already mad and they didn't want a mad king on
the throne when they had the prince who was promised tucked away. So
get rid of the chaff and keep the ... uh, wheat. Yeah, wheat.
Keep Aegon safe while eradicating his last couple of threats /
counter-claimants and also gather up a bit of an army for him, or to
do half the job for him or something.
C&J
John Vreeland
Sure. Varys certainly gave her up to the assassins easily
enough--something that had always bothered me until this book.
John Vreeland
When I was reviewing the chapter I came across him hearing "another"
crossbow sound from outside the tent. It didn't seem imagined to me.
Was I careless? I didn't go looking back for the first one.
Ben
> On 26 Aug., 12:31, Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > This story seems a little bit conventional for these two, coming from
> > nothing to be mega-power players. There's gotta be more here to it.
>
> I'm wondering if this is a sorta egalitarian statement from GRRM. By
> the nature of his feudal setting, most of the major characters are
> nobles (at least minor ones). As well as having no influence, the
> smallfolk realistically have no education and not much perspective, so
> following their stories would be quite dull. GRRM goes beyond this by
> having a few explicit examples of Blood is Destiny (the Targs, the
> Starks being descended from the First Men) which cannot be explained
> by the characters' upbringing. However, the little I know about GRRM's
> politics suggests he's uncomfortable with this fantasy trope, and much
> of the Dunk and Egg stories is about how an ordinary lad can teach
> lessons to a prince. 'The Mystery Knight' contains a pretty strong
> statement about 'who cares who his father is?'. Davos is continually
> aware of his ignoble birth, but apart from an inability to read, he's
> the best Kings' Hand Stannis could ask for. Ramsey has a complex about
> being a bastard, which is probably not why the northmen hate and
> despise him. The Brotherhood without Banners was all about the
> smallfolk, and until they were hijacked by Catelyn, they were one of
> the most sympathetic groups around.
>
shakers who have done the most behind the scenes are Illyrio, Varys,
and Littlefinger. Petyr is of barely noble birth if I remember
rightly, certainly nothing to give him an advantage, while the other
two were born from nothing at all. I like this idea, and it goes right
along with whoever it was that posted all the time about his hostility
toward JRRT's portrayal of nobility (can't remember, but it was
somebody active on the group). If in the end the prophecied Prince who
was Promised doesn't really turn out to be all that important, but
those pulling the strings are the real dick-swingers even after
everything has shaken out, that would be the ultimate fake-out.
That said, I think this "kingmaker" role is as far as any of these
three will get. I think in the end that we will get somebody of
Targaryen blood riding a dragon and ruling Westeros. Too many set-ups
in place for this to be abandoned at this point. Then again it is
entirely possible that Martin has revamped the entire storyline and
we'll get a completely different payoff than we all originally
thought.
> Having Westeros secretly controlled by two smart smallfolk-grown-great
> would be one in the eye for this repellent feudal convention. I also
> think GRRM will leave Jon's parentage unspecified for this reason, and
> at very least leave doubt about Aegon's parentage (if he thinks he's a
> Targ, everyone else thinks hes a Targ, he's had a good education and
> upbringing, does it matter if he's a random boy of Lyseni blood passed
> off to Griff as Rhaegar's?)
>
I distinctly got the impression that Giff Jr. was NOT Aegon. It was
far too unsubtle a revelation for it to be what it seemed to be. Now
if he believes he is Aegon and is a good dude overall, then it really
doesn't matter too much, unless Dany offers him up to the dragons, who
presumably will eat him instead of letting him ride.
I think it is extremely unlikely that we won't find out who Jon's
parents are. This is a pretty pivotal question, and one that virtually
everyone reading wants to know the answer to. This would be a major
change-up, but not one for the better of the readers.
>
> > > At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
> > > Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
> > > Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
> > > Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
> > > Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>
> > I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
> > Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
> > We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
> > priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
> > here.
>
> Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
> he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
> This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
> in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
> against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
>
Yeah, but pretty hard to ride them to anything important. Illyrio
likes being very rich and comfortable clearly. I think it is safe to
say that he has some strong loyalties to the Targs and beyond that I
am genuinely mystified what he gets out of all this considerable time
and expense. I guess maybe just the thrill of being kingmaker might be
enough?
> At this point Illyrio seems more directed by whims of personal
> affection than anything else. A mentally stable man wouldn't keep his
> dead wife's diseased and presumably severed hands in his bedroom. Nor
> would he tell anyone about it.
>
Yeah, that gave us a whole new creepy for Illyrio. Maybe he is just
nuts? The Targs seem to mostly be nuts so this would fit.
>
> > But nobody appeared to know that originally. Viserys seemed to be the
> > one everyone placed their bets on, unless I was missing something.
>
> It makes sense that they concentrated on the older, male one. Although
> Viserys would have taken so well to meeting Aegon and being told he
> was actually second in line to the throne.
>
At this point is certainly seems that Viserys was the sacrificial
lamb, as previously pointed out in this thread. He seemed particularly
appropriate for it. Illyrio probably very early on identified his high
degree of douchiness.
> Illyrio had three potential heirs, of similar ages, in play and didn't
> introduce the two groups. To me this suggests he was waiting to find
> out which was the best one to back.
>
At this point I think maybe Gregor was a big softie after all. He
hardly killed any infants and defenseless women. If he did not kill
Aegon, then I am genuinely curious as the the very graphic description
of him doing so, apparently witnessed and verified to everyone's
(including a very paranoid Robert) satisfaction. This seemed a bit
deus ex machina, which is another reason I think this is not Aegon
after all.
>
> > I think most of us can agree on that. His big literary dick is not
> > helping him out in this case. My guess is that someone is reading this
> > and making suggestions, but Martin at this point is not listening.
>
> It's a shame. I don't want to whine because it was a good book, but in
> particular Tyrion's storyline was overwritten. We get that he was not
> sorry but emotionally affected by his actions, and cut loose from all
> he's ever cared about, which seems to be the main point of his
> chapters (with a side order of comic relief). No need to belabour it.
>
I genuinely am not whining about Martin or the books (the last two)
other than to say the pretty universally agreeable statement that they
could have used much tighter editing. Beyond that I presume that this
would happen if he wasn't currently the best-selling fantasy author
out there (assuming you eliminate teenage-focus crap).
I think in the past Tyrion has done a George Costanza, "leave them on
a laugh" or he has done something absolutely astonishing, then we cut
away. This book gave us too much of him depressed and essentially not
doing anything.
Ben
Ben
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:35:56 -0400, John Vreeland
>
> >Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
> >to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
> >those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
> >tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
>
> Maybe Daenarys and Viserys were just decoys to attract the eyes and
> assassins? Viserys was already mad and they didn't want a mad king on
> the throne when they had the prince who was promised tucked away. So
> get rid of the chaff and keep the ... uh, wheat. Yeah, wheat.
>
an afterthought to getting the Dothraki behind the Targs. But even if
you assume that was a switch-up and that Viserys was always supposed
to be the decoy, I think it very unlikely that anyone could have
figured that Dany would be the real threat here.
> Keep Aegon safe while eradicating his last couple of threats /
> counter-claimants and also gather up a bit of an army for him, or to
> do half the job for him or something.
>
Or when Viserys got crowned the back-up plan was activated. Either a
real hidden Aegon (unlikely I think) or a carefully groomed imitation
Aegon. That Dany was holding the dragon banner high probably shook up
just about everyone's plans.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Keep Aegon safe while eradicating his last couple of threats /
>> counter-claimants and also gather up a bit of an army for him, or to
>> do half the job for him or something.
>
>Or when Viserys got crowned the back-up plan was activated. Either a
>real hidden Aegon (unlikely I think) or a carefully groomed imitation
>Aegon.
So you think we're looking at a fake Aegon? This seems a bit
convoluted even for Varys.
C&J
Mind you, look at what some people think Varys did to arrange Tyrion
killing Tywin.
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>I think it is extremely unlikely that we won't find out who Jon's
>parents are. This is a pretty pivotal question, and one that virtually
>everyone reading wants to know the answer to.
Everyone cares except me, from the looks of it.
>> It makes sense that they concentrated on the older, male one. Although
>> Viserys would have taken so well to meeting Aegon and being told he
>> was actually second in line to the throne.
>
>At this point is certainly seems that Viserys was the sacrificial
>lamb, as previously pointed out in this thread. He seemed particularly
>appropriate for it. Illyrio probably very early on identified his high
>degree of douchiness.
*nod*
>> Illyrio had three potential heirs, of similar ages, in play and didn't
>> introduce the two groups. To me this suggests he was waiting to find
>> out which was the best one to back.
>>
>At this point I think maybe Gregor was a big softie after all. He
>hardly killed any infants and defenseless women. If he did not kill
>Aegon, then I am genuinely curious as the the very graphic description
>of him doing so, apparently witnessed and verified to everyone's
>(including a very paranoid Robert) satisfaction. This seemed a bit
>deus ex machina, which is another reason I think this is not Aegon
>after all.
Well, it was explained that there was another baby substituted, so
Gregor did still smash out a baby's brains on the wall. It's not like
they put a muppet in there and fooled him.
It's a pretty drastic and cold-hearted thing to do, even to preserve
Rhaegar's prophecy. So, interesting idea that Aegon isn't really
Aegon. Doubly pointless if true, though.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>Curiously, Tyrion occasionally hears a crossbow thrumming outside the
>>>litter. No explanation is offered.
>>
>>Isn't this the flashback-crossbow in his head as he kills his father?
>
>When I was reviewing the chapter I came across him hearing "another"
>crossbow sound from outside the tent. It didn't seem imagined to me.
>Was I careless? I didn't go looking back for the first one.
You were or I was. I thought the "other" crossbow thrum was just the
same memory sounding again. Certainly didn't leap out as something
actually happening beyond and separate from his internalising.
C&J
Taemon
>>> Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
>>> to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
>>> those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
>>> tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
Still, it seems strange to me to be so careless with Daenerys. Illyrio
couldn't have known she'd come out as she did, but why not protect her? If
Aegon is really Aegon, she could have married him, after all.
T.
John Vreeland
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Aug 30, 4:21 am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:35:56 -0400, John Vreeland
>>
>> <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> >Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
>> >to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
>> >those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
>> >tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
>>
>> Maybe Daenarys and Viserys were just decoys to attract the eyes and
>> assassins? Viserys was already mad and they didn't want a mad king on
>> the throne when they had the prince who was promised tucked away. So
>> get rid of the chaff and keep the ... uh, wheat. Yeah, wheat.
>>
>I thought originally that Dany was the sacrifice, as she seemed to be
>an afterthought to getting the Dothraki behind the Targs. But even if
>you assume that was a switch-up and that Viserys was always supposed
>to be the decoy, I think it very unlikely that anyone could have
>figured that Dany would be the real threat here.
Viserys was to marry into the Martels. It was the only reason anyone
had any interest in him, personally, other than his stewardship of
Daenerys.
John Vreeland
Yes. But I think it more likely that "Aegon" is really Jon
Connington's son.
Jenny Chase
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:57:19 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> ><john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>>> Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
> >>>> to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
> >>>> those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
> >>>> tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
>
> >Still, it seems strange to me to be so careless with Daenerys. Illyrio
> >couldn't have known she'd come out as she did, but why not protect her? If
> >Aegon is really Aegon, she could have married him, after all.
>
> Yes. But I think it more likely that "Aegon" is really Jon
> Connington's son.
The problem with this theory is that we have Jon Connington's point of
view, where he very clearly thinks of Aegon as his beloved Rhaegar's
son. So if there's a deception, he's not in on it.
I like the idea that Aegon is Illyrio's son. Evidence is sparse but:
Illyrio's Serra was blonde and looked a bit like Dany. Illyrio is
blonde and was once a looker. Tyrion was wearing a young boy's clothes
in Illyrio's house (although they could have been Viserys').
This theory requires Illyrio to have made the substitution to Griff,
however, and if I recall rightly it's never related exactly how Griff
did get hold of Aegon.
--Jenny
Jenny Chase
Assuming the thesis that 'dragons like Targaryens' is correct. So far,
they like Dany (who hatched them and raised them, so no surprise
there) and Ben Plumm (who has a slightly dubious claim to a small
amount of Targ blood, but whose popularity might as well be due to him
being relaxed around them). It appears they did not like Quentyn, who
had a less dubious claim to a small amount of Targ blood, and an
undragonish attitude.
Aegon might get eaten either way, really.
> I think it is extremely unlikely that we won't find out who Jon's
> parents are. This is a pretty pivotal question, and one that virtually
> everyone reading wants to know the answer to. This would be a major
> change-up, but not one for the better of the readers.
Hmmm. Like 'who killed Jon Arryn?' it's one of those questions which
seemed important at the beginning but we might hardly remember it when
we find out. Jon Snow is his own man now, no longer defined by being a
Stark. Why should it suddenly become important that he's a Targ,
unless the dragons care?
At best I think we'll get Howland Reed saying 'oh yeah Jon - your mum
was Lyanna and your dad was Rhaegar, now let's go fight the Others
with obsidian knives' and Jon saying 'I reckon I can make a spear out
of this one'.
>
> > > > At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
> > > > Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
> > > > Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
> > > > Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
> > > > Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>
> > > I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
> > > Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
> > > We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
> > > priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
> > > here.
>
> > Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
> > he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
> > This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
> > in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
> > against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
>
> Yeah, but pretty hard to ride them to anything important. Illyrio
> likes being very rich and comfortable clearly. I think it is safe to
> say that he has some strong loyalties to the Targs and beyond that I
> am genuinely mystified what he gets out of all this considerable time
> and expense. I guess maybe just the thrill of being kingmaker might be
> enough?
Maybe? Not Enough Information.
>
> > At this point Illyrio seems more directed by whims of personal
> > affection than anything else. A mentally stable man wouldn't keep his
> > dead wife's diseased and presumably severed hands in his bedroom. Nor
> > would he tell anyone about it.
>
> Yeah, that gave us a whole new creepy for Illyrio. Maybe he is just
> nuts? The Targs seem to mostly be nuts so this would fit.
It might be more normal in Pentos. He says it like it's normal. Tyrion
doesn't go 'ewwww'.
Jenny
John Vreeland
Quite possibly true. I don't recall Martin ever using a metaphor like
that before, so literally. I'll have to check it some time.
John Vreeland
<pavann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sep 1, 5:44�am, John Vreeland <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:57:19 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> ><john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> >>>> Dany was never part of the plan. Illyrio thought she had been spent
>> >>>> to obtain dothraki support. But that was always questionable: one of
>> >>>> those crude tools you hope you never need. Viserys was supposed to
>> >>>> tie the Dornish to the cause. The main plan was always Aegon & co.
>>
>> >Still, it seems strange to me to be so careless with Daenerys. Illyrio
>> >couldn't have known she'd come out as she did, but why not protect her? If
>> >Aegon is really Aegon, she could have married him, after all.
>>
>> Yes. �But I think it more likely that "Aegon" is really Jon
>> Connington's son.
>
>The problem with this theory is that we have Jon Connington's point of
>view, where he very clearly thinks of Aegon as his beloved Rhaegar's
>son. So if there's a deception, he's not in on it.
Does he? I didn't think so, but my memory of that chapter is slight as
I was not considering those points when I read it. I will save
further discussion for when we get to that chapter.
>I like the idea that Aegon is Illyrio's son. Evidence is sparse but:
>Illyrio's Serra was blonde and looked a bit like Dany. Illyrio is
>blonde and was once a looker. Tyrion was wearing a young boy's clothes
>in Illyrio's house (although they could have been Viserys').
>
>This theory requires Illyrio to have made the substitution to Griff,
>however, and if I recall rightly it's never related exactly how Griff
>did get hold of Aegon.
Another reason I have my doubts. But there was the moment when Tyrion
repeated Illyrio's claim that the boy "Griff Junior" was Griff's son,
which he denied vehemently. Curious in retrospect.
John Vreeland
Speaking of Jon Arryn, was Hugh of the Vale a red herring? Lysa
practically confessed to the whole crime, but why would Hugh have been
her catspaw? It annoys me to think that Hugh was just a coincidence,
but the Mountain could have murdered him for sport and Hugh could have
inherited the money from Jon. And perhaps he deserved that knighthood
from having been the Hand's squire. Having died suddenly, Jon never
got the chance to knight him himself.
Going into his murder in more detail, perhaps his new armor was
tampered with, and perhaps someone whispered this to the Mountain. Or
perhaps whispers were unnecessary as Sandor Clegane was likely expert
in finding such flaws and was not the sort to let his honor as a
gentleman prevent him from taking such advantage of an enemy. It was
likely the sort of opportunity he dreamed of.
>At best I think we'll get Howland Reed saying 'oh yeah Jon - your mum
>was Lyanna and your dad was Rhaegar, now let's go fight the Others
>with obsidian knives' and Jon saying 'I reckon I can make a spear out
>of this one'.
Yeah, well, that's not likely to happen now.
>> > > > At a couple of points Tyrion asks Illyrio why he is aiding Daenerys.
>> > > > Illyrio professes pure altruism, but Tyrion never buys it. Eventually
>> > > > Illyrio admits that Viserys promised him a lot of things, including
>> > > > Casterly Rock if he wanted it, but he just wanted to be Master of
>> > > > Coin. He liked the idea of being Master of Coin.[3]
>>
>> > > I wonder why? It is certainly a way to make a shitload of money, but
>> > > Illyrio already has more money than he could spend in ten lifetimes.
>> > > We have to remember he owned three dragon eggs, which seemed to be
>> > > priceless. Not one, but three! I wonder what his real ambition is
>> > > here.
>>
>> > Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
>> > he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
>> > This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
>> > in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
>> > against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
Yes, very suspicious. But this likely had nothing to do with his
original plans. Is Varys now against Daenerys? Perhaps he has not yet
formed an opinion.
>> Yeah, but pretty hard to ride them to anything important. Illyrio
>> likes being very rich and comfortable clearly. I think it is safe to
>> say that he has some strong loyalties to the Targs and beyond that I
>> am genuinely mystified what he gets out of all this considerable time
>> and expense. I guess maybe just the thrill of being kingmaker might be
>> enough?
>
>Maybe? Not Enough Information.
>>
>> > At this point Illyrio seems more directed by whims of personal
>> > affection than anything else. A mentally stable man wouldn't keep his
>> > dead wife's diseased and presumably severed hands in his bedroom. Nor
>> > would he tell anyone about it.
>>
>> Yeah, that gave us a whole new creepy for Illyrio. Maybe he is just
>> nuts? The Targs seem to mostly be nuts so this would fit.
>
>It might be more normal in Pentos. He says it like it's normal. Tyrion
>doesn't go 'ewwww'.
They might be perfectly mummified or something. Or bronzed. Cersei
wanted to bronze Tyrion's head and keep it in her chamber pot.
Ben
evidence is a bit thin. But it would make sense as to Illyrio's over-
arching goal, to put his son on the throne of Westeros, presumably
marrying Dany. So far I still don't see a better reason for him to be
doing all this.
Originally I was with Vree but it would require that Jon Connington
himself not know about it, which seems unlikely.
I still think if "Aegon" is simply Aegon, then this is a weak
plotline, at least introduced weakly.
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:18:59 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> >> Keep Aegon safe while eradicating his last couple of threats /
> >> counter-claimants and also gather up a bit of an army for him, or to
> >> do half the job for him or something.
>
> >Or when Viserys got crowned the back-up plan was activated. Either a
> >real hidden Aegon (unlikely I think) or a carefully groomed imitation
> >Aegon.
>
> So you think we're looking at a fake Aegon? This seems a bit
> convoluted even for Varys.
>
the plotline was too conventional and very unsubtle. If this is the
real Aegon this is the most tropic thread yet introduced in the
series, without any misdirection or anything (besides the gross baby-
switch twenty years ago). Just doesn't sound right to me. But I've
been wrong before.
>
> Mind you, look at what some people think Varys did to arrange Tyrion
> killing Tywin.
Ben
Ben
> On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 03:42:22 -0700 (PDT), Jenny Chase
>
>
> >> > the nature of his feudal setting, most of the major characters are
> >> > nobles (at least minor ones). As well as having no influence, the
> >> > smallfolk realistically have no education and not much perspective, so
> >> > following their stories would be quite dull. GRRM goes beyond this by
> >> > having a few explicit examples of Blood is Destiny (the Targs, the
> >> > Starks being descended from the First Men) which cannot be explained
> >> > by the characters' upbringing. However, the little I know about GRRM's
> >> > politics suggests he's uncomfortable with this fantasy trope, and much
> >> > of the Dunk and Egg stories is about how an ordinary lad can teach
> >> > lessons to a prince. 'The Mystery Knight' contains a pretty strong
> >> > statement about 'who cares who his father is?'. Davos is continually
> >> > aware of his ignoble birth, but apart from an inability to read, he's
> >> > the best Kings' Hand Stannis could ask for. Ramsey has a complex about
> >> > being a bastard, which is probably not why the northmen hate and
> >> > despise him. The Brotherhood without Banners was all about the
> >> > smallfolk, and until they were hijacked by Catelyn, they were one of
> >> > the most sympathetic groups around.
>
are pretty creepy now, but some of them at least seem to be aware of
that fact.
>
> >> I distinctly got the impression that Giff Jr. was NOT Aegon. It was
> >> far too unsubtle a revelation for it to be what it seemed to be. Now
> >> if he believes he is Aegon and is a good dude overall, then it really
> >> doesn't matter too much, unless Dany offers him up to the dragons, who
> >> presumably will eat him instead of letting him ride.
>
> >Assuming the thesis that 'dragons like Targaryens' is correct. So far,
> >they like Dany (who hatched them and raised them, so no surprise
> >there) and Ben Plumm (who has a slightly dubious claim to a small
> >amount of Targ blood, but whose popularity might as well be due to him
> >being relaxed around them). It appears they did not like Quentyn, who
> >had a less dubious claim to a small amount of Targ blood, and an
> >undragonish attitude.
>
> >Aegon might get eaten either way, really.
unlike Viserys. That and Targ blood seems to be enough to attract
them. I don't think we have seen anybody without Targ blood able to
influence their actions in any way. Then again very few living people
have had a chance to do that.
> >> I think it is extremely unlikely that we won't find out who Jon's
> >> parents are. This is a pretty pivotal question, and one that virtually
> >> everyone reading wants to know the answer to. This would be a major
> >> change-up, but not one for the better of the readers.
>
> >Hmmm. Like 'who killed Jon Arryn?' it's one of those questions which
> >seemed important at the beginning but we might hardly remember it when
> >we find out. Jon Snow is his own man now, no longer defined by being a
> >Stark. Why should it suddenly become important that he's a Targ,
> >unless the dragons care?
>
Stark left. Sansa was always too vapid to understand it and in any
case was raised to be a Tully more than a Stark. Arya's whole
storyline seems to be focused on stripping her (unsuccessfully I might
add) of her identity, but she was always slated to be no normal Stark.
Bran is going way out there and never seemed to have much Starkitude,
and the Seven know what Rickon is all about. Jon's adherence to the
Brotherhood codes and his attempts to enforce it that destroy his
support structure and ability to look out for himself are totally and
completely Stark.
As for him being a Targ or not, I don't really much care, but I think
that too many signs point to it for it to be avoided at this point. No
matter his birth or his bastard surname, he'll always be a Stark.
> Speaking of Jon Arryn, was Hugh of the Vale a red herring? Lysa
> practically confessed to the whole crime, but why would Hugh have been
> her catspaw? It annoys me to think that Hugh was just a coincidence,
> but the Mountain could have murdered him for sport and Hugh could have
> inherited the money from Jon. And perhaps he deserved that knighthood
> from having been the Hand's squire. Having died suddenly, Jon never
> got the chance to knight him himself.
>
this way. Hugh knew what Jon knew, and that was why the Mountain was
tasked to murder him. He was knighted in order that he could face
Gregor and be killed. He had no other reason for being given this
honor. No other squire we have heard of was knighted for his master
dying without any claim. Robert was easily persuaded to allow it as
respect for Jon certainly, and probably too drunk to give it much
thought, but at the end of the day Cersei arranged it to protect her
secret.
> Going into his murder in more detail, perhaps his new armor was
> tampered with, and perhaps someone whispered this to the Mountain. Or
> perhaps whispers were unnecessary as Sandor Clegane was likely expert
> in finding such flaws and was not the sort to let his honor as a
> gentleman prevent him from taking such advantage of an enemy. It was
> likely the sort of opportunity he dreamed of.
>
think it's safe to simplify it. The Mountain was given permission to
murder this pup who knew nothing of combat. That is probably all that
was needed. He wouldn't need any bogus armor or secrets to do it, just
raw physical power and martial training.
> >At best I think we'll get Howland Reed saying 'oh yeah Jon - your mum
> >was Lyanna and your dad was Rhaegar, now let's go fight the Others
> >with obsidian knives' and Jon saying 'I reckon I can make a spear out
> >of this one'.
>
this out. That's stereotypical and not Martin's style. The first
revelation will almost certainly be indirect, perhaps to somebody who
doesn't know what he is talking about or we will be given some
evidence that is obvious in retrospect, but not so clear at the time.
> Yeah, well, that's not likely to happen now.
>
game here? Given the history of the series it certainly is quite
possible (perhaps even likely) that Jon was murdered and that's it.
But I won't buy that until 2020 when we get the next book.
>
> >> > Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
> >> > he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
> >> > This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
> >> > in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
> >> > against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
>
> Yes, very suspicious. But this likely had nothing to do with his
> original plans. Is Varys now against Daenerys? Perhaps he has not yet
> formed an opinion.
>
seems some opportunity with a Targ on the throne, something I have not
yet figured out, or heard thrown about by anyone.
>
> >> Yeah, that gave us a whole new creepy for Illyrio. Maybe he is just
> >> nuts? The Targs seem to mostly be nuts so this would fit.
>
> >It might be more normal in Pentos. He says it like it's normal. Tyrion
> >doesn't go 'ewwww'.
>
mention is made of the custom. Maybe the fact that a princeling can do
whatever the hell he wants might relate.
> They might be perfectly mummified or something. Or bronzed. Cersei
> wanted to bronze Tyrion's head and keep it in her chamber pot.
>
Cersei's thoughts, this was not well thought out.
Ben
John Vreeland
wrote:
too obviously a fake. Mainly because he is so perfect.
If Jon Connington HAD the real Aegon he would probably have raised
him, but I am guessing he thought Aegon was dead and decided to shit
all over Robert and Aerys both by placing his own son on the throne.
John Vreeland
wrote:
Tyrion he was Connington's son and Connington denied it extremely
vehemently.
John Vreeland
wrote:
made a big deal over over the possibility that Hugh might have
poisoned him and been paid for it with new armor and a knighthood.
Varys did not seem to know the truth about that.
>> Going into his murder in more detail, perhaps his new armor was
>> tampered with, and perhaps someone whispered this to the Mountain. Or
>> perhaps whispers were unnecessary as Sandor Clegane was likely expert
>> in finding such flaws and was not the sort to let his honor as a
>> gentleman prevent him from taking such advantage of an enemy. It was
>> likely the sort of opportunity he dreamed of.
>>
>Honor as a gentleman, Haw! The Mountain BTW is Gregor, not Sandor. I
>think it's safe to simplify it. The Mountain was given permission to
>murder this pup who knew nothing of combat. That is probably all that
>was needed. He wouldn't need any bogus armor or secrets to do it, just
>raw physical power and martial training.
up-jumped miller's boy; he had been the Hand's squire for years. Arryn
would have made sure he had excellent training in the martial arts.
His previous two squires were Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. And
something was mentioned about a problem with his armor.
>
>> >At best I think we'll get Howland Reed saying 'oh yeah Jon - your mum
>> >was Lyanna and your dad was Rhaegar, now let's go fight the Others
>> >with obsidian knives' and Jon saying 'I reckon I can make a spear out
>> >of this one'.
>>
>I realistically think that Jon will be nowhere around when we find
>this out. That's stereotypical and not Martin's style. The first
>revelation will almost certainly be indirect, perhaps to somebody who
>doesn't know what he is talking about or we will be given some
>evidence that is obvious in retrospect, but not so clear at the time.
>
>> Yeah, well, that's not likely to happen now.
>>
>Am I the only one that thinks Jon is still a major part of the end
>game here? Given the history of the series it certainly is quite
>possible (perhaps even likely) that Jon was murdered and that's it.
>But I won't buy that until 2020 when we get the next book.
>> >> > Varys at least has an apparent motive for a non-financial vendetta -
>> >> > he explained in an earlier book why he hates sorcery above all things.
>> >> > This does not appear to have anything to do with his current actions,
>> >> > in fact if the dragons are bringing the magic back, he should be
>> >> > against them. He'd be a natural ally for the grey sheep maesters.
>>
>> Yes, very suspicious. But this likely had nothing to do with his
>> original plans. Is Varys now against Daenerys? Perhaps he has not yet
>> formed an opinion.
>>
>I think the two parts of his personality are completely unrelated. He
>seems some opportunity with a Targ on the throne, something I have not
>yet figured out, or heard thrown about by anyone.
>
>>
>> >> Yeah, that gave us a whole new creepy for Illyrio. Maybe he is just
>> >> nuts? The Targs seem to mostly be nuts so this would fit.
>>
>> >It might be more normal in Pentos. He says it like it's normal. Tyrion
>> >doesn't go 'ewwww'.
>>
>I don't think so. We have some other Pentoshi scenes and people and no
>mention is made of the custom. Maybe the fact that a princeling can do
>whatever the hell he wants might relate.
>
>> They might be perfectly mummified or something. Or bronzed. Cersei
>> wanted to bronze Tyrion's head and keep it in her chamber pot.
>>
>So that face could always be leering at her lady bits? Like most of
>Cersei's thoughts, this was not well thought out.