Game of Thrones vs. A Song of Ice and Fire: the end of the series

[Butterbumps@Home]

Let's talk about the actual books here.

I'm copying this text direct from a blog post I made on the subject, so that contains video links and assorted other stuff I'll try to include here.

There's a lot of stuff on YouTube about the final season of Game of Thrones (as completely distinct from A Song of Ice and Fire. I knew this, but like Star Wars I didn't realise how intense it got. There's mass pop psychology deconstruction of the mental issues Benioff has, and the abuse (for example) Emilia Clarke experienced ... it's all pretty hair-raising.

I've recently come around a bit on the stupidity of the ending of the TV series. I'm still fine with how it went because I sort of stopped caring very much, but my vehement support of how much sense Daenerys's degeneration made [https://hatboy.blog/2019/05/21/interlude-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/] is something I feel like I can walk back a little bit. I still think it tracked, because from season 1 onwards it was always part of her character, but that was by design. There was meant to be a *risk* of her going Viserys. Ultimately, in the TV show, it might have been better if she hadn't.

But there is more evidence in the form of scripts and VFX tests and carefully-curated statements from the actors about how they didn't have any idea what was going to happen in the show until it actually aired. Like, really weird and fascinating shit.

https://youtu.be/Xf_8TKJIlMc

Again, it's all a bit yeesh, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Benioff does seem like a bit of a fraud, but that's fine. I think we're all gradually getting our illusions peeled back about whether the deserving actually get recognition or fame or fortune in this world, but let's not make this a bigger thing than it needs to be. Benioff is no more amazing than JJ Abrams, or indeed RR Martin. They make it up as they go along, and circumstances mess them around.

None of that really matters. It's a shame, sincerely, if actors on the show were traumatised by the abuse and their characters were done dirty. That sucks. But the show started going off the rails more or less as it ran out of books and was forced to diverge from the plot of A Song of Ice and Fire. That wasn't the only problem, but it was a problem.

And it didn't need to be. With proper storytelling (not even from Martin) and scripting, it still could have been fine. But here's where the very obvious theory comes in. It seems pretty clear by now that Martin does have some idea of where A Song of Ice and Fire is heading. There were glimmers in the last three seasons of Game of Thrones that were clearly Martin's, stuff from the books that he was throwing in.

And I've said before, Martin is in a unique and really interesting position now. He's had a test-screening of the end of A Song of Ice and Fire, and he knows a lot of people didn't like it. It makes sense to me not only that he would change his books accordingly, but that he would have provided some other ending scenarios for all the characters and plot threads in the story, for the TV show to deliver.

So, is the "Daenerys attacks soldiers, kills some civilians in unavoidable crossfire because of Cersei's human shield move, then accidentally ignites the wildfire" plot, mentioned above, closer to what's going to happen in A Song of Ice and Fire (assuming Martin ever gets it done)? Shit, that makes way more sense to me. The books made a big deal of the wildfire under King's Landing, even more so than the TV series. It's the basis of Jaime's backstory, the basis of the Targaryen history, a key part of Tyrion's storyline, and (although it wasn't in the books yet I'm sure this was one of Martin's) a big plot point for Cersei's reign and the disposal of her enemies (the Tyrells and the Sparrows) in the Sept of Baelor.

That Daenerys finally does what her father was killed to prevent, while Jaime again tries to prevent it and fails (to his death), and Daenerys is blamed for it by everyone and ends up being overthrown (by Jon, even) right on the brink of creating a unified Westeros and Easteros ... yes. That's a pretty fucking perfect ending to the books, isn't it? Full circle. Jon does what Jaime did, becomes a Queenslayer, and the whole thing is just tragically futile.

My main concern about this is, it was all hinted at in some sort of leaked script or notes or something. Which I think means, Martin may have put it out there as the way the books are going to end, so they could work out a slightly crappier way for the TV series to end which still sort of held up to scrutiny.

The Internet being what it is, though, it's come to light and now - fuck, who knows what he'll do as a result? Hopefully he'll stick to it. Game of Thrones is done. A Song of Ice and Fire can still be finished right.


B@h
--
For the blog post, go to:

https://hatboy.blog/2020/08/01/game-of-thrones-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

[Butterbumps@Home]

I should comment here that it’s not actually fair (in my opinion) for me to put Martin in the same uncharitable pile as Benioff and Abrams. They definitely make shit up as they go along and are lazy charlatans. Martin, if anything, has the opposite problem.

I don’t think he’s lazy, although yes, the pressure of the series and the joys of being an authorial rock star have made him slow down – and more power to him for that. He gets one life to live, and he’s living the dream. Hopefully he wants to tell stories and he will get there in the end. In the meantime, part of what’s taking him so long is that he is planning it out. He’s getting it right, and that requires a lot of thinking and reworking and careful progress. Take it from someone who knows. If you only get one shot at it, you can lose yourself in rewriting and fucking around, for years and years.

Martin’s managed to get two shots at it. That’s an amazing opportunity and he’s right to approach it very carefully indeed.

[Platypus]

On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 7:43:10 AM UTC-4, Butterbumps@Home wrote:
> There's a lot of stuff on YouTube about the final season of Game of Thrones (as completely distinct from A Song of Ice and Fire. I knew this, but like Star Wars I didn't realise how intense it got. There's mass pop psychology deconstruction of the mental issues Benioff has, and the abuse (for example) Emilia Clarke experienced ... it's all pretty hair-raising.

I agree with those who say the final seasons are an artistic failure. Part of that blame can be laid at GRRM's feet, since he never finished the books. Ultimately, though, the devil is in the details. If the books do ultimately finish, and they turn out to be artistic failures, it will be for subtly different reasons.

> I've recently come around a bit on the stupidity of the ending of the TV series. I'm still fine with how it went because I sort of stopped caring very much, but my vehement support of how much sense Daenerys's degeneration made [https://hatboy.blog/2019/05/21/interlude-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/] is something I feel like I can walk back a little bit.

This article makes many good points about the foreshadowing of Dany's arc. Dany is the Mad King's Daughter. (Or is she?). But I can't get behind the sentiment that the pantywaists need to get with the effing program.

I don't think it worked on the show. But if Dany goes nuts in the books, the artistic merit (or lack thereof) will depend on how it is handled in the books. Personally, I expect something LIKE that to happen, but I think it will be different. Is there foreshadowing? Absolutely!

> But there is more evidence in the form of scripts and VFX tests and carefully-curated statements from the actors about how they didn't have any idea what was going to happen in the show until it actually aired. Like, really weird and fascinating shit.
> https://youtu.be/Xf_8TKJIlMc
> Again, it's all a bit yeesh, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

I did not find this video too interesting, but it does touch on something I noticed in the show - the explosion of the wildfire caches. This is something that GRRM has carefully set up. It has long been clear to me that King's Landing is going to go up in flames, and it will be a major catastrophe. It is also something that goes to waste if Dany's destruction of King's Landing is completely intentional and deliberate.

> None of that really matters. It's a shame, sincerely, if actors on the show were traumatised by the abuse and their characters were done dirty. That sucks.

I'm sure the actors on the show got paid. I'm sorry, of course, if they suffered any mistreatment, but the abuse of actors should not IMHO be conflated with the abuse of their characters. The latter is an artistic question. The former is not.

> And it didn't need to be. With proper storytelling (not even from Martin) and scripting, it still could have been fine.

That's to some extent true, I'm sure. But easier said than done, or every film would be a classic. And how many seasons would "proper storytelling" have required? Look at the breakneck pace of some of the final seasons. Look at all the characters and dangling plot threads that got summarily dispatched in unsatisfying ways, or simply dropped and ignored. When you consider these things, one realizes that a "proper ending" to this series really is a monumental task. And judging by the last 10 years, GRRM is not exactly taking the bull by the horns.

> But here's where the very obvious theory comes in. It seems pretty clear by now that Martin does have some idea of where A Song of Ice and Fire is heading.

I think he does, which is one of the reasons I remain somewhat interested.

> So, is the "Daenerys attacks soldiers, kills some civilians in unavoidable crossfire because of Cersei's human shield move, then accidentally ignites the wildfire" plot, mentioned above, closer to what's going to happen in A Song of Ice and Fire (assuming Martin ever gets it done)? Shit, that makes way more sense to me.

Same here. I would also expect (but this is going further out on a limb) it to be the tragedy that causes her character to reverse course; stop being the Mad King's Daughter; and realize that she has another identity.

> A Song of Ice and Fire can still be finished right.

I have little hope of that. But I am invested enough to read THE WINDS OF WINTER to see if it provides any further amunition for certain of my pet theories.

[Butterbumps@Home]

sunnuntai 2. elokuuta 2020 7.09.15 UTC+3 Platypus kirjoitti:

> > I've recently come around a bit on the stupidity of the ending of the TV
> > series. I'm still fine with how it went because I sort of stopped caring
> > very much, but my vehement support of how much sense Daenerys's
> > degeneration made
> > [https://hatboy.blog/2019/05/21/interlude-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/] is
> > something I feel like I can walk back a little bit.
>
> This article makes many good points about the foreshadowing of Dany's arc.
> Dany is the Mad King's Daughter. (Or is she?). But I can't get behind
> the sentiment that the pantywaists need to get with the effing program.

No, that was by way of me doing a "bit", really. Hyperbolic abrasiveness for fun and truly minimal profit.

I was fine with the ending of the TV show, but I was pretty over the TV show by the final season. And I found the wailing and gnashing of teeth and petitions to remake the season to be a bit much. Couldn't get behind it, as you say.

> I did not find this video too interesting, but it does touch on something
> I noticed in the show - the explosion of the wildfire caches. This is
> something that GRRM has carefully set up.

Exactly. He was yet to write Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baelor, right? So there's a cool scene, a sort of final step along the road.

But all along, we've had Tyrion being warned that there is wildfire everywhere, and it's getting more potent (or easier to make). And of course Jaime's whole kingslayer arc can come full circle as he tries to stop another Targaryen from setting off the city.

It would work far better than what we saw on the TV show.

> It has long been clear to me that King's Landing is going to go up in
> flames, and it will be a major catastrophe. It is also something that
> goes to waste if Dany's destruction of King's Landing is completely
> intentional and deliberate.

Exactly. Agreed.

> > None of that really matters. It's a shame, sincerely, if actors on the
> > show were traumatised by the abuse and their characters were done dirty.
> > That sucks.
>
> I'm sure the actors on the show got paid. I'm sorry, of course, if they
> suffered any mistreatment, but the abuse of actors should not IMHO be
> conflated with the abuse of their characters. The latter is an artistic
> question. The former is not.

Right, I meant to separate those two more clearly. Their characters and roles may or may not have been messed up but the actor doesn't really own the role except in very special circumstances. That's a relatively minor thing and speaks more to the artistic and creative bankruptcy of the showrunners.

But there are more disturbing signs of mistreatment of the actual actors, on a psychological level. I don't know how much credence to put in it, because the maker of that video I linked (and this I already sort of suspected from the vibe of his stuff) seems to be a pretty troubled individual himself.

So it all got a bit intricate and complicated for me there.

> > But here's where the very obvious theory comes in. It seems pretty
> > clear by now that Martin does have some idea of where A Song of Ice and
> > Fire is heading.
>
> I think he does, which is one of the reasons I remain somewhat interested.

I just hope he gets his groove back and starts enjoying it again. I suspect things are only going to get worse for his writing mojo.

> > So, is the "Daenerys attacks soldiers, kills some civilians in
> > unavoidable crossfire because of Cersei's human shield move, then
> > accidentally ignites the wildfire" plot, mentioned above, closer to
> > what's going to happen in A Song of Ice and Fire (assuming Martin ever
> > gets it done)? Shit, that makes way more sense to me.
>
> Same here. I would also expect (but this is going further out on a limb)
> it to be the tragedy that causes her character to reverse course; stop
> being the Mad King's Daughter; and realize that she has another identity.

Sure. Only to be killed by Jon because he thinks she did it all out of madness.

> > A Song of Ice and Fire can still be finished right.
>
> I have little hope of that. But I am invested enough to read THE WINDS OF
> WINTER to see if it provides any further amunition for certain of my pet
> theories.

*nod*

B@h
--
https://hatboy.blog/

[Platypus]

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 7:06:00 AM UTC-4, Butterbumps@Home wrote:
> I was fine with the ending of the TV show, but I was pretty over the TV show by the final season.

Similarly, I had no real investment in the TV show, and certainly not by the final season. If I had been invested, maybe I would have been a bit upset. So a just enjoyed an occasional "cool moment" between the many eye-rolls.

> And I found the wailing and gnashing of teeth and petitions to remake the season to be a bit much.

Well sure. Art (whether it is good art or bad art) is not a democracy, and little good can come of petitions to remake seasons.

But the gnashing of teeth is merely fans being disappointed after being invested. I can't blame them for being invested ... it is no more than what HBO wanted of them, and sought to profit from. Now HBO has to deal with the disappointment. HBO will get little sympathy from me.

> Exactly. He was yet to write Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baelor, right? So there's a cool scene, a sort of final step along the road.

Right. That was one of the moments from the show that struck me as "spoilerish". And no, it has not happened in the books yet, though I am guessing it probably will.

> But all along, we've had Tyrion being warned that there is wildfire everywhere, and it's getting more potent (or easier to make).

Yes, IIRC, it was hinted that wildfire cahes - even old ones - were growing more potent, possibly connected to the return of magic.

> And of course Jaime's whole kingslayer arc can come full circle as he tries to stop another Targaryen from setting off the city.

Maybe. But another way of looking at this is that it rather undermines Jaime's "noble deed" if he did not prevent, but merely delayed, the catastrophe. It was Jaime's overweening pride ("the wolf does not judge the lion") that caused him to keep quiet about this ticking time bomb, lying in wait to kill thousands. Not much of a hero.

As for Jaime's fate, keep in mind that Stoneheart was cut from the show, so anything that relates to Stoneheart would likely have to be changed. And then there's the pesky valonqar prophesy, that the show did not address at all.

> > Same here. I would also expect (but this is going further out on a limb)
> > it to be the tragedy that causes her character to reverse course; stop
> > being the Mad King's Daughter; and realize that she has another identity.
> Sure. Only to be killed by Jon because he thinks she did it all out of madness.

Yeah, but she only got stabbed once, which is more than Jon can say. Then Drogon flew off with her intact corpse to an unknown destination. Maybe she and Jon are now equally "dead".

[Butterbumps@Home]

sunnuntai 2. elokuuta 2020 21.09.12 UTC+3 Platypus kirjoitti:

> But the gnashing of teeth is merely fans being disappointed after being
> invested. I can't blame them for being invested ... it is no more than
> what HBO wanted of them, and sought to profit from. Now HBO has to deal
> with the disappointment. HBO will get little sympathy from me.

Fair to say.

> > Exactly. He was yet to write Cersei's destruction of the Sept of Baelor,
> > right? So there's a cool scene, a sort of final step along the road.
>
> Right. That was one of the moments from the show that struck me as
> "spoilerish". And no, it has not happened in the books yet, though I am
> guessing it probably will.

That's true, he's not going to be able to spring that on us as a surprise in the books, which is a shame. I guess he had to give HBO a few nuggets.

That's what concerns me about the "possible leaked ending" re: wildfire and Daenerys being more Rhaegar than Viserys. If this is how Martin wants to end the books, is this now spoiled as well? Will he still go ahead with it, or try to find some other ending that fits his plan and hasn't been predicted? Or will it just put him off writing the final book(s) altogether?

This is all written on the assumption that he will continue publishing A Song of Ice and Fire books, of course.

> > And of course Jaime's whole kingslayer arc can come full circle as he
> > tries to stop another Targaryen from setting off the city.
>
> Maybe. But another way of looking at this is that it rather undermines
> Jaime's "noble deed" if he did not prevent, but merely delayed, the
> catastrophe. It was Jaime's overweening pride ("the wolf does not judge
> the lion") that caused him to keep quiet about this ticking time bomb,
> lying in wait to kill thousands. Not much of a hero.

Well, therein may lie a difference in our outlook. I have never considered Jaime much of a hero, and I don't consider his redemption arc to have any real validity. Everything he did, he did for shitty selfish reasons and then complained about how damn hard and unfair it all was. The fact that he stopped the city being destroyed by wildfire was pretty incidental to the whole thing - he was saving himself.

So, a full-circle instance where he's admittedly suffered and grown and learned a bit about being a proper human being, and is actually trying to prevent the city's destruction more than he's trying to save himself and put his family on top - an attempt that fails? Definitely an appropriate ending to his "arc" as far as I'm concerned.

> As for Jaime's fate, keep in mind that Stoneheart was cut from the show,
> so anything that relates to Stoneheart would likely have to be changed.
> And then there's the pesky valonqar prophesy, that the show did not
> address at all.

Good points. I can see how those would fold into a wildfire ending, but more work required.

> > > Same here. I would also expect (but this is going further out on a
> > > limb) it to be the tragedy that causes her character to reverse
> > > course; stop being the Mad King's Daughter; and realize that she has
> > > another identity.
> >
> > Sure. Only to be killed by Jon because he thinks she did it all out of
> > madness.
>
> Yeah, but she only got stabbed once, which is more than Jon can say. Then
> Drogon flew off with her intact corpse to an unknown destination. Maybe
> she and Jon are now equally "dead".

I'm okay with that.

One of the cooler parts of Fire & Blood detailed one of the Targaryen ancestors who flew her dragon out to Old Valyria and came back all fucked up and burn-mutated. Really interesting stuff.


- B@h
--
https://hatboy.blog/

[Platypus]

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 2:17:47 AM UTC-4, Butterbumps@Home wrote:
> Well, therein may lie a difference in our outlook. I have never considered
>Jaime much of a hero, and I don't consider his redemption arc to have any
> real validity. Everything he did, he did for shitty selfish reasons and then
> complained about how damn hard and unfair it all was. The fact that he
> stopped the city being destroyed by wildfire was pretty incidental to the whole
> thing - he was saving himself.

No, I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I'm not a fan of the supposed "redemption arc" which I hope comes more from the imagination of certain fans than it does from GRRM.

> One of the cooler parts of Fire & Blood detailed one of the Targaryen ancestors who
> flew her dragon out to Old Valyria and came back all fucked up and burn-mutated.
> Really interesting stuff.

Yes, that was memorable. And horrifying. Ugh, though! Ugh! Ugh! I don't think I want Dany to go there!

[Butterbumps@Home]

tiistai 4. elokuuta 2020 2.50.53 UTC+3 Platypus kirjoitti:

> > Well, therein may lie a difference in our outlook. I have never
> > considered Jaime much of a hero, and I don't consider his redemption arc
> > to have any real validity. Everything he did, he did for shitty selfish
> > reasons and then complained about how damn hard and unfair it all was.
> > The fact that he stopped the city being destroyed by wildfire was pretty
> > incidental to the whole thing - he was saving himself.
>
> No, I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I'm not a fan of the
> supposed "redemption arc" which I hope comes more from the imagination of
> certain fans than it does from GRRM.

Oh good! Yeah, I think the closest he will get is where he was already headed - acceptance of the fact that he did awful things because he was an awful person, but at least trying to do right due to Brienne's influence at the end.

And ultimately dying, possibly in a failed attempt to stop the one good thing he did (preventing the destruction of King's Landing) from being undone.

> > One of the cooler parts of Fire & Blood detailed one of the Targaryen
> > ancestors who flew her dragon out to Old Valyria and came back all
> > fucked up and burn-mutated. Really interesting stuff.
>
> Yes, that was memorable. And horrifying. Ugh, though! Ugh! Ugh! I
> don't think I want Dany to go there!

Well, it may have been that [whoever it was who went there, I don't remember her name now] was unworthy, or any number of things could have happened to her. Daenerys was a bit more of a Ruler of Destiny so the fact that Drogon takes her there (maybe) might be a good sign.

Either way it's all speculation because even if Martin gets to the end of the books and kills Daenerys off, we're very unlikely to see a follow-up on that plot thread.

We might get more in Part 2 of the Targaryen story that would shed light on it? At least allowing us to say "right, so then when Daenerys and Drogon show up there later, this might happen."



B@h
--
https://hatboy.blog/