A lazy man with loony theories

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google...@dread.net

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Dec 31, 2005, 4:43:05 PM12/31/05
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Hi everyone,

I started out trying to get caught up with this newsgroup to see if my
own theories on this story are shared by others. My laziness won. I'm
still curious what people think, however, so here goes.

First, some theories that won't spoil anything for anyone who hasn't
read aFfC. (WARNING: I will spoil some plot items further down this
post, so quit reading now if you're worried about it.)

1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
Lyanna's son? Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (against her will?) right
around that time. The promise Ned keeps thinking about could be a
promise he made to his sister to keep Jon's identity a secret.

2) I hate Catelyn Stark. What a broody, selfish, gloomy, selfish
woman. (Did I mention selfish?) Granted she's had alot of crap happen
to her, but even before she started losing kids, she was a crappy
person. She treated Jon Snow like crap, though he's always been kind
to her, she made Ned's life as difficult as possible. I dunno. I just
never liked her. And NOW.. crypt-keeper-cate is even more detestable.

3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture. OK, Little finger MIGHT
turn her into someone interesting down the line.. maybe. But up till
now she's been Catelyn Stark, minus the brains. She reminds me of
Elayne in Jordan's Wheel of Time. Little Miss Muffet.

4) I think the reason Arya crossed paths with Gendry is so that she'll
mistake Gendry's half brother for him at a later date. (The kid Stannis
took from Storm's end, who is now in some undisclosed location
(Braavos?))

5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
(This one seems kinda obvious).

6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.

7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.

Overall aFfC was a little disappointing to me. It does have the feel
of a book which aims to set the stage for act 2, but I'm scared. I
plodded through books 7-10 of WoT hoping against hope that it was just
stage-setting. So far I've found GRRM to be much less prone to wasting
words, but this latest book wastes more words than any of the previous
ones. We're starting to see more descriptions of dresses and hair
styles, and rare species of beetles crawling up twigs.

Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.

ConquerorMarr

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Jan 1, 2006, 4:46:14 AM1/1/06
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google...@Dread.net wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I started out trying to get caught up with this newsgroup to see if my
> own theories on this story are shared by others. My laziness won. I'm
> still curious what people think, however, so here goes.
Ahh.....the story of my life. Or at least my education.

>
> First, some theories that won't spoil anything for anyone who hasn't
> read aFfC. (WARNING: I will spoil some plot items further down this
> post, so quit reading now if you're worried about it.)
>
> 1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
> Lyanna's son? Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (against her will?) right
> around that time. The promise Ned keeps thinking about could be a
> promise he made to his sister to keep Jon's identity a secret.
I think this has been accepted past the point of theory to fan canon.
I am waiting for Jon to turn out to really be Ned's bastard and seeing
Martin say "It's no worse than Taimandred, it's not my fault y'all have
a herd instinct."

>
> 2) I hate Catelyn Stark. What a broody, selfish, gloomy, selfish
> woman. (Did I mention selfish?) Granted she's had alot of crap happen
> to her, but even before she started losing kids, she was a crappy
> person. She treated Jon Snow like crap, though he's always been kind
> to her, she made Ned's life as difficult as possible. I dunno. I just
> never liked her. And NOW.. crypt-keeper-cate is even more detestable.
I started out like you, and the prevailing sentiment is certainly with
you. The treamtment of Jon and the corruption of the BwB are certainly
points against her, but how did she make Ned's life difficult?

>
> 3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture. OK, Little finger MIGHT
> turn her into someone interesting down the line.. maybe. But up till
> now she's been Catelyn Stark, minus the brains. She reminds me of
> Elayne in Jordan's Wheel of Time. Little Miss Muffet.
Amen!

>
> 4) I think the reason Arya crossed paths with Gendry is so that she'll
> mistake Gendry's half brother for him at a later date. (The kid Stannis
> took from Storm's end, who is now in some undisclosed location
> (Braavos?))
Possible I suppose....at least she can see the similarities.

>
> 5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
> (This one seems kinda obvious).
Yeah, though with Cersei already in the dump heap it is a wonder how
she will last that long.

>
> 6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
> think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
> back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.
A hook up between them reomantically? Disgusting and implausible.
Reformed Sandor helpng her out and maybe showing her how things really
are (like he tried to explain with the knights) is very plausible.
HAve not heard this one myself, so kudos!

>
> 7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.
I still fear the inevitable sex scene between those two.....

>
> Overall aFfC was a little disappointing to me. It does have the feel
> of a book which aims to set the stage for act 2, but I'm scared. I
> plodded through books 7-10 of WoT hoping against hope that it was just
> stage-setting. So far I've found GRRM to be much less prone to wasting
> words, but this latest book wastes more words than any of the previous
> ones. We're starting to see more descriptions of dresses and hair
> styles, and rare species of beetles crawling up twigs.
Jordan is starting up again. I am still in denial, saying that the
ending can save the series. As for Martin, it was not as action packed
as the rest of the books, esp. with numerous "Brienne and pals wander
through the woods" and "Cersei is a paranoid psycho whore" chapters,
but the Jaime and Dorne plotlines where a nice, brisk pace. I also
appreciate the way Martin only dealt with half the characters so we
could get whole story arcs instead of a bunch of half way ones.
Overall, it was the slowest so far but still quite good, IMHO.

Flem

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Jan 1, 2006, 5:01:57 AM1/1/06
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:43:05 -0800, google...@Dread.net wrote:


> First, some theories that won't spoil anything for anyone who hasn't
> read aFfC. (WARNING: I will spoil some plot items further down this
> post, so quit reading now if you're worried about it.)
>

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

> 1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
> Lyanna's son? Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (against her will?) right
> around that time. The promise Ned keeps thinking about could be a
> promise he made to his sister to keep Jon's identity a secret.
>

Considering all the other posts/discussions about it, no you are not the
only one to think that. It is indeed a possibility. However, there are
also many who believe that Jon is the son of Ashara Dayne and Eddard
Stark, and some others who see him as Wylla's son. All these theories have
valid points.

Myself, I think he is lyanna's son, the theory is rather attractive and
explains ned's promise to lyanna easily. It would explain also for me the
moment when summer describes ghost as "the one who didn't find his voice
yet" (loose paraphrasing) Ghost would find his voice at the same time Jon
realise his identity.


> 2) I hate Catelyn Stark. What a broody, selfish, gloomy, selfish
> woman. (Did I mention selfish?) Granted she's had alot of crap happen
> to her, but even before she started losing kids, she was a crappy
> person. She treated Jon Snow like crap, though he's always been kind
> to her, she made Ned's life as difficult as possible. I dunno. I just
> never liked her. And NOW.. crypt-keeper-cate is even more detestable.
>

I don't know what's the big deal with the catelyn hate, many seem to share
the sentiment, yet I never felt like that toward her. She gave good
political advice to Robb and was overall someone to have on your side
rather than against you. Her problem was that she played a bit too much in
littlefinger's hand, by seizing Tyrion first (tyrion is a crowd favorite)
and then by releasing Jaime. Both these moves had (or would have) as many
benefitial consequences than detrimental ones. Her error was to have a
psycho sister and a son lost to political finesse.

And now, I find Uncat quite an interesting non-POV character, she is
locked in her last moments madness, and she stands for the vengeance of
the North, lost to reasonning, lost to pity, just a cold monster intent on
destroying everyone enjoying the lannister's peace.

> 3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture. OK, Little finger MIGHT
> turn her into someone interesting down the line.. maybe. But up till
> now she's been Catelyn Stark, minus the brains. She reminds me of
> Elayne in Jordan's Wheel of Time. Little Miss Muffet.
>

Sansa has been the most passive POV character so far, but under
littlefinger's supervision, maybe she'll become a game of throne player in
her own right soon, who knows. It's rather clear her character was setup
to play a big part in court intrigues, even if she ends up only following
the flow. In my opinion, participating in the murder of Lysa began to
corrupt her and show her as a Cersei-to-be, a stupid homicidal slut still
afraid of everything not in her control.


> 4) I think the reason Arya crossed paths with Gendry is so that she'll
> mistake Gendry's half brother for him at a later date. (The kid Stannis
> took from Storm's end, who is now in some undisclosed location
> (Braavos?))
>

I don't know about that, Arya knows Gendry has a secret, and was hunted by
the queen. It's probable that after her training she will see that he was
a Baratheon, just so she can introduce him in the Game. Yet for now
Brienne also knows that (perhaps it was something related to that she
screamed?), and Arya doesn't.
I guess it could happen if she could have a reason to slip past Edric's
guards, and if Edric somehow entered the game (died with need of a
replacement, pretended to the crown, etc). Let's not forget Edric knows he
is Robert's son, but anyway, to try to get near him in the first place you
most likely have to know that beforehand.


> 5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
> (This one seems kinda obvious).
>

Anyone bringing Cersei down is good. But it could also still be Margaery
(altho she doesn't seem to be in a good position at the moment), or
Myrcella (Oh the sweet irony, if Doran allowed it), or Sansa (unlikely
but that way she could be the one to bring down the Qyborg, as per her
prophecy) or even Shireen (heck, Stannis is King, and I do think cersei is
uglier inside than almost anyone)


> 6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
> think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
> back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.
>

None in the next 5 years, imho. After... who knows, Monk-hound versus
Mountainstein would be a good show.


> 7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.
>

She will have to avoid dying first. But why not, she never swore to never
attack the Lannisters, and angst suits her.



> Overall aFfC was a little disappointing to me. It does have the feel of
> a book which aims to set the stage for act 2, but I'm scared. I plodded
> through books 7-10 of WoT hoping against hope that it was just
> stage-setting. So far I've found GRRM to be much less prone to wasting
> words, but this latest book wastes more words than any of the previous
> ones. We're starting to see more descriptions of dresses and hair
> styles, and rare species of beetles crawling up twigs.

Considering that the author original intent was to have a 5 years break
between a strom of swords and a dance with dragons, and that most of the
storyline were a bit settled by then, it's only normal if nothing
earth-shatterring happen in a feast for crow and a dance with dragons. The
two books are only there to cover what would otherwise be flashbacks.
So most of the storylines won't stray from what they were at the end of
SoS: Arya will continue training with the faceless men, Tyrion will still
be away from westeros, doing his stuff -somewhere near mereen probably-,
Sansa will learn the Game from Littlefinger, Jon will grow into his
Commander role, Bran will become a Green Seer, Dany will become accustomed
to rule and ready to strike, Sam will become maester, Cersei will become a
puppet queen, etc. The only ones who are likely to get some unexpected
changes in their life in the two books are the secondary or non POV
characters like Jaime, Stannis or Brienne, Imho, they are sacrificable in
the grand scheme of things. The others will surely have some shocking
things happen, but overall it'll be details.

--
Flem

Larry Caldwell

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Jan 1, 2006, 8:20:26 AM1/1/06
to
In article <1136065385.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
google...@Dread.net (google...@Dread.net) says...

> 1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
> Lyanna's son? Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (against her will?) right
> around that time. The promise Ned keeps thinking about could be a
> promise he made to his sister to keep Jon's identity a secret.

Yes, you are. Martin is just playing with your head. Jon's mother was
Ashara Dayne, whose violet eyes betrayed a lot of Targaryen blood.


> 2) I hate Catelyn Stark. What a broody, selfish, gloomy, selfish
> woman. (Did I mention selfish?) Granted she's had alot of crap happen
> to her, but even before she started losing kids, she was a crappy
> person. She treated Jon Snow like crap, though he's always been kind
> to her, she made Ned's life as difficult as possible. I dunno. I just
> never liked her. And NOW.. crypt-keeper-cate is even more detestable.

Lots of people grow up with irrationally abusive mothers.


> 3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture. OK, Little finger MIGHT
> turn her into someone interesting down the line.. maybe. But up till
> now she's been Catelyn Stark, minus the brains. She reminds me of
> Elayne in Jordan's Wheel of Time. Little Miss Muffet.

Oh, I don't know, Sansa is starting to grow on me. You have to say
something for a young beauty who can be disrobed by a king, married to
the king's hand, manhandled by a sociopath and kidnapped by a grifter,
who still manages to be a virgin. I'm starting to look forward to Sansa
chapters, because sooner or later one of them will be Sex with Sansa or
Sansa the Virgin Sacrifice. It's inevitable, and either one would suit
me fine.


> 4) I think the reason Arya crossed paths with Gendry is so that she'll
> mistake Gendry's half brother for him at a later date. (The kid Stannis
> took from Storm's end, who is now in some undisclosed location
> (Braavos?))

According to the witch, Robert had 16 children. It's just as likely
that Gendry crossed paths with Arya so he could recognize her later.


> 5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
> (This one seems kinda obvious).

Maybe. It would be more poetic if it were Myrcella.


> 6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
> think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
> back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.

YAY! A vote for Sex with Sansa! I would say the odds are about 50/50.
The other chance is that Sansa will hook up with Melisandre and get to
hatch a dragon egg.

> 7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.

Of more immediate interest, will Catelyn kill Brienne, and if so, how
many times?


> Overall aFfC was a little disappointing to me. It does have the feel
> of a book which aims to set the stage for act 2, but I'm scared. I
> plodded through books 7-10 of WoT hoping against hope that it was just
> stage-setting. So far I've found GRRM to be much less prone to wasting
> words, but this latest book wastes more words than any of the previous
> ones. We're starting to see more descriptions of dresses and hair
> styles, and rare species of beetles crawling up twigs.

Ooh. I missed the beetle. What chapter was that in?



> Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.

We're more the "toss him out of the boat" school of swimming
instruction. You'll figure it out, or you'll drown, your choice.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

google...@dread.net

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Jan 1, 2006, 4:46:48 PM1/1/06
to
"how did she make Ned's life difficult?"

Well, the one scene that sticks out in my mind is in aGoT where she
argues with Ned about going to King's Landing. Even when Ned changes
his mind, she manages to change her mind too so she can argue some
more.

In any case, I feel decidedly unremarkable now that I know most of my
opinions are in the mainstream. Baaaa!

"A hook up between them reomantically? Disgusting and implausible."

The Hound loved Sansa because she was exactly what he had convinced
himself didn't exist: a pure soul. Sansa will eventually fall in love
with the memory of the Hound because he will represent the only man who
didn't turn out to be a fraud. He loves her because she punched a hole
in his universe, and she will love him for being the last remaining
shred of the universe she once believed in.

Loony or what? When Littlefinger turns her into a lying, scheming
little monster, she'll be perfectly set up to break Sandor's heart once
and for all. When she sees the hurt she causes him, she'll realise she
has become what she hates and that will kill her too. DOES THE
LOONINESS KNOW NO BOUNDS?!!?!

"Jordan is starting up again. I am still in denial, saying that the
ending can save the series."

I'm still on board, and KoD was better. But the series needs alot more
than just one more book. I'm a slow reader, so each one of those books
means about a week of obsessive reading. I didn't like spending 4
books reading about dresses and tea parties and plodding through snow
and carrying water.

Herb Schaltegger

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Jan 1, 2006, 5:10:10 PM1/1/06
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On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:46:48 -0600, google...@Dread.net wrote
(in article <1136152008.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

> I didn't like spending 4
> books reading about dresses and tea parties and plodding through snow
> and carrying water.

Don't forget the weevils.

--
Herb

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
~ RAH

Elio M. Garcia Jr.

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Jan 2, 2006, 4:18:48 AM1/2/06
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On 1 Jan 2006 13:46:48 -0800, google...@Dread.net wrote:

> "how did she make Ned's life difficult?"
>
> Well, the one scene that sticks out in my mind is in aGoT where she
> argues with Ned about going to King's Landing. Even when Ned changes
> his mind, she manages to change her mind too so she can argue some
> more.

You must mean when Ned changes his mind ... and then notes as a
consequence that he's taking Bran with him. This was something she hadn't
expected, and hadn't wanted, and she briefly tries to convince him not to
take him because Bran is so precious to her; it's hard to have so many of
her children leave her as it is, but Bran's the straw that (briefly) breaks
the camel's back.

She isn't arguing for the sake of arguing, that's obvious. She doesn't
enjoy making Ned unhappy, not least because convincing Ned to go means that
she likely won't be seeing her husband or a number of her children again
for months, and possibly even years. When she argues for Bran to stay,
that's precisely what it is -- she's not trying to get Ned to reneg on his
decision to go after all.

She was nothing if not a very dutiful and loving wife. The fact that they
had disagreements, and were able to discuss them (with the one exception of
Jon Snow -- Ned refuses to discuss why Jon is in such an elevated position,
and has pretty much told her he's not compromising regarding him, and in
turn Catelyn refuses to bend and accept Jon as a member of her household;
this is a problem created by Ned and perpetuated by the both of them,
basically), is a far cry better than what we see out of most relationships
in this series.

--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)

google...@dread.net

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Jan 2, 2006, 1:24:23 PM1/2/06
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"She was nothing if not a very dutiful and loving wife. "

You're right, of course. I might have never remembered the argument if
she hadn't almost continually acted out of self-interest time and time
again during the rest of the story.

Penelope Periwinkle

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Jan 2, 2006, 2:35:45 PM1/2/06
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On 2 Jan 2006 10:24:23 -0800, "google...@Dread.net"
<google...@Dread.net> wrote:

Self interest? How so?

I would say the only time she acted from self-interest was in
sending Brienne off with Jaime to swap for her daughters. She
was, purely and selfishly, acting out of a mother's love and
fear. It was pretty stupid as well as selfish, and with plans for
the Red Wedding well underway and Arya padding back and forth
across Westros, mostly moot.

However, everything else she did, whether wise or foolish, was
for her house and allies. Take her capture of Tyrion, we the
readers know it was a mistake; but at the time, she thought he
had hired a someone to kill her wounded, crippled, and possibly
dying son. Tyrion wasn't a threat to her, so how was that acting
out of self interest?

When asked by Rob, she negotiated passage for his army with
Walder Frey, and traveled to the south to negotiate with Renly
and Stannis. How was that acting out of self interest?

Yes, yes, she was vile to Jon Snow. A new bride with a new babe
is forced to accept the bastard of her new husband into her
household with no objections or discussion...she'd have to be a
saint not to resent that, and George R does write his characters
as human, not saints.

Penelope

--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn" <eli...@everybodycansing.com>

google...@dread.net

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Jan 2, 2006, 11:04:19 PM1/2/06
to
"Self interest? How so?"

Her trip to King's Landing she kept secret from her husband because she
feared he might prevent her from doing what she wanted to do.

Capturing Tyrion without a second thought to the repercussions.

Also much of the advice she gave Robb aimed primarily at keeping him
out of harm's way because she couldn't bear to lose another son.

And now Crypt-Keeper-Cate is hell bent on death and destruction because
the universe forgot whose belly-button it was supposed to revolve
around.

Catelyn Stark was not all that different from Cercei. Well, ok.. less
conceited, not into the whole incest thing, and a whole lot smarter,
but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
except Viserys)

Aaron F. Bourque

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Jan 3, 2006, 10:40:27 AM1/3/06
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google...@Dread.net wrote:
> "Self interest? How so?"
>
> Her trip to King's Landing she kept secret from her husband because she
> feared he might prevent her from doing what she wanted to do.

The fuck? She left for King's Landing *after* her husband. How was she
supposed to inform him of her trip? If by some chance a bird could be
sent to the caravan before it reached it's destination, it would have
reached them by about the same time she got to King's Landing, anyway.
And the whole reason she left for KL was to *warn* her husband that he
had just entered a pit of vipers without perhaps realizing it. And, to
tell him about the attempt of Bran and show him the dagger so he could
begin a quite investigation and try to figure out what the hell's going
on here.

> Capturing Tyrion without a second thought to the repercussions.

She thought about the repercussions, she just thought that her
presumption of his guilt out-weighed those repercussions.

> Also much of the advice she gave Robb aimed primarily at keeping him
> out of harm's way because she couldn't bear to lose another son.

Not at all. A lot of the advice she gave Robb was good advice. Whenever
she had thoughts about the danger he was in, she tried to keep those
thoughts to herself and still give him good advice.

She acted out of purely self-interest when she freed Jaime. Then, she
compromised her role as advisor, and was sidelined forever afterwards,
but she only became useless around the time her father finally died, or
around the time news of Bran and Rikkon dying and the sack of
Winterfell (whichever came afterwards).

> And now Crypt-Keeper-Cate is hell bent on death and destruction because
> the universe forgot whose belly-button it was supposed to revolve
> around.

She went crazy just before she died, having lost--to her mind--almost
her entire family. That was probably her version of hell on earth for
the few moments she survived. And we don't know how much of a person
survives zombification. We know from Dondarrion that they lose
something.

> Catelyn Stark was not all that different from Cercei. Well, ok.. less
> conceited, not into the whole incest thing, and a whole lot smarter,

Capable of empathy and sympathy for other people's emotions . . .

> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
> except Viserys)

Joffrey.

Cripes. This is like arguing apples and panthers. They're both alive,
and panthers spend time in trees. Can you think of a more apple-like
animal?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Peter Wright

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Jan 3, 2006, 11:20:29 AM1/3/06
to
Aaron F. Bourque <aaronb...@aol.com> wrote:
> google...@Dread.net wrote:
> > "Self interest? How so?"
[ snip another example of the People Who Don't Like Catelyn And Don't
Really Justify It Very Well club ]

> > Catelyn Stark was not all that different from Cercei. Well, ok..
> > less conceited, not into the whole incest thing, and a whole lot
> > smarter,

> Capable of empathy and sympathy for other people's emotions . . .

Calm, mature, mostly diplomatic. Her sympathy/empathy is most notable
with Brienne, but also (to a small degree) with Mya Stone. She's
certainly not as stupid and self-absorbed as Cersei (though that's a
hole with no bottom), and shows some pretty decent insight when
discussing strategy with her son.

Though even smart people make mistakes. Tyrion is one of the smartest
characters in the series so far, IMO, and even he's made more than a
few blunders (once even being tricked by Catelyn herself).

> > but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
> > except Viserys)

> Joffrey.

> Cripes. This is like arguing apples and panthers. They're both
> alive, and panthers spend time in trees. Can you think of a more
> apple-like animal?

*applause*

Thank you Aaron. Exactly what I was thinking. ;-)

Well all right, maybe not specifically apples and panthers. More sort
of onions and giraffes.

> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Pete.
--
http://flooble.net/blog
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
-- Rich Kulawiec

google...@dread.net

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Jan 3, 2006, 11:25:00 AM1/3/06
to

"The fuck?"

You and others have made many good points. So many good points in fact
that I'm second-guessing myself. "Why," I ask myself, "did I hate that
character so damn much?"

The only thing I dreaded seeing more than a Catelyn chapter was a Sansa
chapter.

mgraves

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Jan 3, 2006, 11:53:34 AM1/3/06
to

<google...@Dread.net> wrote in message
news:1136305499.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

They both weigh in very heavy on the whine scale. Theon was probably the
only character in the series who even approximated Cat in the "whoa is me"
theme. I, for one, hate the bitch and couldn't care less about her reasons
for being such a worthless sack of pathetic shit. She was like that big
retarded guy from Of Mice and Men, hugging her little pets so tightly that
she kills them and then crying about the unfairness of them being dead. I
hope Jon feeds her rotting corpse to Ghost.

Actually, I just had another thought. Maybe she qualifies as the "little
brother" due to her relative small stature and her membership in the BwB.
If so, I could certainly see the pale hands that are supposed to throttle
Cersei belonging to UnCat. A total redemption for her incessant bitching?
No, but it's a start.


Peter Wright

unread,
Jan 3, 2006, 7:57:23 PM1/3/06
to
google...@Dread.net <google...@dread.net> wrote:
> "The fuck?"
>
> You and others have made many good points. So many good points in
> fact that I'm second-guessing myself. "Why," I ask myself, "did I
> hate that character so damn much?"

I theorised about this a while back - something along the lines of how
we may be more inclined to make allowances for characters if we can
see similarities between them and ourselves. After all, Jon is fairly
whiny inside his own head (much as Catelyn is - though whether it
actually counts as whining when it's inside your head is one for the
philosophers), but _in_general_ readers seem to be more forgiving of
Jon than they are of Catelyn.

Mind you, there are things about Catelyn that anyone could find
off-putting, albeit understandable. I was initially not a big fan of
her after her "it should have been you" last words to Jon in AGoT, but
grew less sympathetic after seeing the way she treated her younger
brother Edmure in both ACoK and ASoS (even if it was somewhat
justifiable).

But actually, stuff that theory, here's another one. :)

I think a large part of it may be that she didn't have a nice clear
Asshole Bad Guy(tm) that she had to confront. Jon had Alliser Thorne
and Janos Slynt; Arya had Gregor (indirectly) and the Tickler and
quite a few of Gregor's other evil pets; Sansa had Joffrey and Cersei
and (eventually) Lysa; Tyrion had Lysa and Joffrey and Cersei and most
especially his father Tywin; Daenerys had .... lots of people; Jaime
and Brienne had Vargo Hoat and his Brave Companions; Davos had
Alester(?) Florent and possibly Melisandre[0]...

Catelyn didn't really have anyone. Except _maybe_ Tyrion (heh) and
maybe Jaime, but neither of those work for me. And because we didn't
have a chance to cheer for her in a confrontation, we're more inclined
to be bored with her. And because we're more inclined to be bored with
her, we're less inclined to overlook her more annoying character flaws
- and more inclined to ignore her positive traits.

> The only thing I dreaded seeing more than a Catelyn chapter was a
> Sansa chapter.

Sansa is a believable thirteen-year-old girl. Arya is not a
particularly believable eleven-year-old girl. If there wasn't such a
stark contrast between them (ba-doom-tish), maybe we'd all be a little
more willing to put up with Sansa's (quite understandable and
forgivable, IMO) character flaws.

Putting Sansa in the position of looking after Little Lord Robert is
particularly interesting, I think. Robert Arryn is a character that
demonstrates all of Sansa's former annoying traits (and a lot of his
own annoying traits), albeit greatly exaggerated. Helping to deal with
Robert may be a way that Sansa gains more confidence in herself and
her ability to manipulate people.


Pete.

[0] Not that I want to give any more fuel to UMIEL (United Melisandre-
Is-Evil Lobby, for those not recognising the acronym), but they're
quite happy to make their own fuel :).
--
http://flooble.net/blog
As part of the conversion, computer specialists rewrote 1,500
programs; a process that traditionally requires some debugging.
-- USA Today, referring to the Internal Revenue Service
conversion to a new computer system.

Jack V

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Jan 3, 2006, 10:45:19 PM1/3/06
to
mgraves wrote:
> <google...@Dread.net> wrote in message
> news:1136305499.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>"The fuck?"
>>
>>You and others have made many good points. So many good points in fact
>>that I'm second-guessing myself. "Why," I ask myself, "did I hate that
>>character so damn much?"
>>
>>The only thing I dreaded seeing more than a Catelyn chapter was a Sansa
>>chapter.
>
>
> They both weigh in very heavy on the whine scale. Theon was probably the
> only character in the series who even approximated Cat in the "whoa is me"
> theme. I, for one, hate the bitch and couldn't care less about her reasons
> for being such a worthless sack of pathetic shit. She was like that big
> retarded guy from Of Mice and Men, hugging her little pets so tightly that
> she kills them and then crying about the unfairness of them being dead. I
> hope Jon feeds her rotting corpse to Ghost.
>
<snip end>

Right...what he said. Oh...and happy new year and whatnot.

--
Jack V

willre...@yahoo.com

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Jan 3, 2006, 10:48:42 PM1/3/06
to

I keep hearing this. I have been in a time and a place where an
eleven-year-old girl with mana of Arya's traits, not as skilled but you
don't have to be with an M-16 or AK-47, would have been quite
believable. We didn't take ID's but I may have captured a few of them.
There WERE fairly normal-seeming children in that time and place but
there were plenty that would have seemed unbelievable if they weren't
right there at the time.


Will in New Haven

--

"Grant us, in our direst need, the smallest gifts: the nail of the
horseshoe, the pin of the axle, the feather at the pivot point, the
pebble at the mountain's peak, the kiss in despair, the one right word.
In darkness, understanding." -- Learned Chivar dy Cabon

Penelope Periwinkle

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Jan 3, 2006, 10:54:21 PM1/3/06
to
On 3 Jan 2006 07:40:27 -0800, "Aaron F. Bourque"
<aaronb...@aol.com> wrote:

>google...@Dread.net wrote:
<stuff>


>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>> except Viserys)
>
>Joffrey.

I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.

Penelope Periwinkle

unread,
Jan 3, 2006, 10:59:29 PM1/3/06
to
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:57:23 GMT, Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net>
wrote:

>
>I think a large part of it may be that she didn't have a nice clear
>Asshole Bad Guy(tm) that she had to confront. Jon had Alliser Thorne
>and Janos Slynt; Arya had Gregor (indirectly) and the Tickler and
>quite a few of Gregor's other evil pets; Sansa had Joffrey and Cersei
>and (eventually) Lysa; Tyrion had Lysa and Joffrey and Cersei and most
>especially his father Tywin; Daenerys had .... lots of people; Jaime
>and Brienne had Vargo Hoat and his Brave Companions; Davos had
>Alester(?) Florent and possibly Melisandre[0]...
>
>Catelyn didn't really have anyone. Except _maybe_ Tyrion (heh) and
>maybe Jaime, but neither of those work for me. And because we didn't
>have a chance to cheer for her in a confrontation, we're more inclined
>to be bored with her. And because we're more inclined to be bored with
>her, we're less inclined to overlook her more annoying character flaws
>- and more inclined to ignore her positive traits.

<applause>

That's downright insightful.

>Pete.
>
>[0] Not that I want to give any more fuel to UMIEL (United Melisandre-
>Is-Evil Lobby, for those not recognising the acronym), but they're
>quite happy to make their own fuel :).

<sigh> Oh, for a brief, shining moment, I had hope, but it's back
to the spankings for you.

Peter Wright

unread,
Jan 4, 2006, 12:42:35 AM1/4/06
to
Penelope Periwinkle <pperi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:57:23 GMT, Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net>
> wrote:

> >I think a large part of it may be that she didn't have a nice clear
> >Asshole Bad Guy(tm) that she had to confront.

[ snip ]


> >And because we didn't have a chance to cheer for her in a
> >confrontation, we're more inclined to be bored with her. And
> >because we're more inclined to be bored with her, we're less
> >inclined to overlook her more annoying character flaws - and more
> >inclined to ignore her positive traits.

> <applause>
>
> That's downright insightful.

Just when you least expect it :). Bwahahaha. Yay me.

> >Pete.
> >
> >[0] Not that I want to give any more fuel to UMIEL (United
> >Melisandre- Is-Evil Lobby, for those not recognising the acronym),
> >but they're quite happy to make their own fuel :).

> <sigh> Oh, for a brief, shining moment, I had hope, but it's back
> to the spankings for you.

And after the spankings, the oral sex!


...Well, I could stay a _bit_ longer.

> Penelope

(oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?)


Pete.
--
http://flooble.net/blog
Coding is easy; All you do is sit staring at a terminal until the drops
of blood form on your forehead.

mgraves

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Jan 4, 2006, 9:41:08 AM1/4/06
to

"Jack V" <vid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:EridncgqefdZ2Sbe...@comcast.com...

*stares suspiciously at Jack*

I think that must be sarcasm. I don't believe you have ever agreed with me
on anything.

>Oh...and happy new year and whatnot.

You too. It would be much better if it weren't for the fact that the next
holiday/long weekend is in May. I keep trying to convince my employer that
St. Patrick's Day is a religious holiday, but they're not buying it.


Jack V

unread,
Jan 4, 2006, 11:01:22 AM1/4/06
to
mgraves wrote:
> "Jack V" <vid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:EridncgqefdZ2Sbe...@comcast.com...
>
>>mgraves wrote:
>>
>>><google...@Dread.net> wrote in message
>>>news:1136305499.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"The fuck?"
>>>>
>>>>You and others have made many good points. So many good points in fact
>>>>that I'm second-guessing myself. "Why," I ask myself, "did I hate that
>>>>character so damn much?"
>>>>
>>>>The only thing I dreaded seeing more than a Catelyn chapter was a Sansa
>>>>chapter.
>>>
>>>
>>>They both weigh in very heavy on the whine scale. Theon was probably the
>>>only character in the series who even approximated Cat in the "whoa is
>>>me" theme. I, for one, hate the bitch and couldn't care less about her
>>>reasons for being such a worthless sack of pathetic shit. She was like
>>>that big retarded guy from Of Mice and Men, hugging her little pets so
>>>tightly that she kills them and then crying about the unfairness of them
>>>being dead. I hope Jon feeds her rotting corpse to Ghost.
>>>
>>
>><snip end>
>>
>>Right...what he said.
>
>
> *stares suspiciously at Jack*
>
> I think that must be sarcasm. I don't believe you have ever agreed with me
> on anything.

Perhaps, perhaps not...been a long time and I don't clearly recall. But
this wasn't sarcasm. Pretty much the only character who is as tooth-
grindingly irritating as her is Theon. Well, he's approximately 10x as
irritating, but you get the idea.

>>Oh...and happy new year and whatnot.
>
>
> You too. It would be much better if it weren't for the fact that the next
> holiday/long weekend is in May. I keep trying to convince my employer that
> St. Patrick's Day is a religious holiday, but they're not buying it.

Hmm...yeah...I think you're right. Thanks...I needed some despair.

--
Jack V

Penelope Periwinkle

unread,
Jan 4, 2006, 1:51:43 PM1/4/06
to
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:42:35 GMT, Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net>
wrote:

>Penelope Periwinkle <pperi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net> wrote:
<snippity do dah>

>> >[0] Not that I want to give any more fuel to UMIEL (United
>> >Melisandre- Is-Evil Lobby, for those not recognising the acronym),
>> >but they're quite happy to make their own fuel :).
>
>> <sigh> Oh, for a brief, shining moment, I had hope, but it's back
>> to the spankings for you.
>
>And after the spankings, the oral sex!

Well, I walked right into that one, didn't I?


>...Well, I could stay a _bit_ longer.
>
>> Penelope
>
>(oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?)

Not until you Consult the Book of Armaments.

And eat between 5 and 10 servings of fruits and vegetables.


Penelope, don't make me use the...brussel sprouts!

fybar

unread,
Jan 5, 2006, 1:44:29 PM1/5/06
to
Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net> wrote in news:newscache$mnmjsi$30d$1
@phantom.amnet.net.au:

> google...@Dread.net <google...@dread.net> wrote:
>> "The fuck?"

I have nothing to say here except that I condone the use of profanity.

> But actually, stuff that theory, here's another one. :)
>
> I think a large part of it may be that she didn't have a nice clear
> Asshole Bad Guy(tm) that she had to confront. Jon had Alliser Thorne
> and Janos Slynt; Arya had Gregor (indirectly) and the Tickler and
> quite a few of Gregor's other evil pets; Sansa had Joffrey and Cersei
> and (eventually) Lysa; Tyrion had Lysa and Joffrey and Cersei and most
> especially his father Tywin; Daenerys had .... lots of people; Jaime
> and Brienne had Vargo Hoat and his Brave Companions; Davos had
> Alester(?) Florent and possibly Melisandre[0]...
>
> Catelyn didn't really have anyone. Except _maybe_ Tyrion (heh) and
> maybe Jaime, but neither of those work for me. And because we didn't
> have a chance to cheer for her in a confrontation, we're more inclined
> to be bored with her. And because we're more inclined to be bored with
> her, we're less inclined to overlook her more annoying character flaws
> - and more inclined to ignore her positive traits.

Catelyn absolutely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt had an absolutely evil
Asshole Bad Guy(tm) to contend with. Who you ask? Tyrion.

Now, as readers we have insight into Tyrion's actual nature but within
the context of a character in Westeros Tyrion is a foul and evil man.
Now, there are a few characters that know what Tyrion is really like even
though his sister is not one of them. I think when Tyrion is arrested
for Joff's death one of the nights says that Tyrion wouldn't be capable
of doing that. *Runs off to library* Yes, in fact it was Balon Swann.
However, Balon is in a very small minority. His opinion was based upon
Tyrion's bravery when he lead the sortie during the attack at King's
Landing. If not for that I wouldn't think Swann would have said much in
Tyrion's defense. The world in ASOIAF by and large believes Tyrion to be
evil. We as readers just know better.

I think Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion was not the wild insane selfish act
that many here think it was. Tyrion walked up to her in the common room
and spoke to her with courtesy and she truly thought he had schemed to
kill her son. Who could endure their children's murder to act like that
to them when they had the means to act? This is no small crime and I do
not think she was a fool to suspect Tyrion, after all, he has the means
and a reputation no matter how ill deserved it is. People don't seem to
realise as readers they know things that the characters don't. It is a
trait of a good writer that we can watch characters make decisions that
will bring their downfall and watch it unfold like a slow train wreck.
The poor characters just don't know it. Cat gets a raw deal.

As an aside isn't ironic that Cat tried to have Tyrion killed, only to be
rescued by Bronn in trial by combat, and she let Jaime go? Tyrion was
probably kindest to her children and Jaime the cruelest. GRRM certainly
has the whole irony thing down pat.

>> The only thing I dreaded seeing more than a Catelyn chapter was a
>> Sansa chapter.

I used to think this way until I realised that she was a thirteen year
old girl. I think her character is believable, in fact, hey wait...


>
> Sansa is a believable thirteen-year-old girl. Arya is not a
> particularly believable eleven-year-old girl. If there wasn't such a
> stark contrast between them (ba-doom-tish), maybe we'd all be a little
> more willing to put up with Sansa's (quite understandable and
> forgivable, IMO) character flaws.

Harumph, I was gonna say that! Actually, I don't think Sansa has any
character flaws. Not when they are attached to a teeny bopper. She had
little girl dreams of being a princess and wait a minute, they were
coming true! So maybe, she wasn't so pie in the sky as she is being made
out to be. In fact, she was trained to be exactly what she wanted to be
and came within a hair's breadth of becoming, queen of Westeros. Sansa
gets a raw deal. Even when she told that her father was going to send
her away, which ultimately ended in his death. She did a childish thing
with a child's understanding. She honestly thought that Cersei was kind
and her friend. How very naive of her.

Of all of the POV characters in this series Sansa has by far the hardest
life. She watched her beloved Joff order her father killed. So did
Arya, but then she was rescued by Yoren. Sansa had to stay and be civil
and dutiful to her father's murderer. She was beaten and humiliated over
and over. Can you imagine the stress of living under those conditions?
She could have been killed or raped at any minute of any day. It is a
wonder she didn't end up like Lollys. The threat of that hanging over
anyone's head 24-7 would be stressful to say the least. And through all
of this she still thinks that men can be 'True Knights' and looks for the
good that she can find. She even finds real sympathy in her heart for
the hound who must surely terrify her. It speaks to her strength that
she endured this. Sansa got the rawest deal of all.

> Putting Sansa in the position of looking after Little Lord Robert is
> particularly interesting, I think. Robert Arryn is a character that
> demonstrates all of Sansa's former annoying traits (and a lot of his
> own annoying traits), albeit greatly exaggerated. Helping to deal with
> Robert may be a way that Sansa gains more confidence in herself and
> her ability to manipulate people.

Little Lord Robert didn't have people beating him and terrorizing him.
He did the terrorizing. He is a spoiled little sociopath, as his mother
made him become. He may have been a weakling physically, but his mother
shaped his personality, like Sansa's was shaped.

Even though Sansa seemed like a simpering fool she wasn't. She was told
how to act and what to say and she did. She was dutiful. Then, all of
here wishes were coming true. How can you say these are annoying traits
when everything she was lead to believe was coming to pass? She acted
just like any little girl in her position would have acted and better
than could be expected after her father was killed.

Sansa is my hero.

fybar

google...@dread.net

unread,
Jan 5, 2006, 3:38:16 PM1/5/06
to
"The world in ASOIAF by and large believes Tyrion to be evil."

Well, Tyrion IS evil, in a practical sense. He is a very interesting
character, and I took an instant liking to him, but let's face it.
He's a bad guy. Few of his reflections and introspections have ever
prevented him from doing what he saw as his duty to his family. At
best he turns a blind eye where he could act, at worst he schemes to
burn thousands alive. Having read it all from his POV, we've had front
row seats to his rationalizations and justifications for many an
unspeakable act. It's easy to lose ourselves in these rationalizations
and fail to see the act for what it is.

Having a bard killed because he knew that the Hand was bedding a whore.
Sound like a good guy? Would Ned Stark have done it?

Cercei is an evil idiot. Tyrion is an evil genius.

"I think Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion was not the wild insane selfish act
that many here think it was."

Good points all, but the reason I consider this act very selfish on her
part is that she was only thinking of the injustice done to her family.
She spent not a second considering how capturing Tyrion might impact
the realm. The Lannisters were the most powerful family in Westerios
and she takes Tyrion prisoner? One would think she would have appealed
to the King, or his Hand for justice rather than take it into her own
hands.

"Sansa is my hero."

*barf* - excuse me.. it's not you. I just always react this way to
any mention of Sansa. I don't care if she's a believable 13 year old
girl. Her chapters are still very painful to get through. I really
hope Littlefinger turns her into a badass. GRRM is the man... I have
faith that he wrote Sansa as annoyingly as he did so that the contrast
with the Sansa of the future will make her look even cooler.

ConquerorMarr

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 2:27:23 PM1/6/06
to

google...@Dread.net wrote:
> "The world in ASOIAF by and large believes Tyrion to be evil."
>
> Well, Tyrion IS evil, in a practical sense. He is a very interesting
> character, and I took an instant liking to him, but let's face it.
> He's a bad guy. Few of his reflections and introspections have ever
> prevented him from doing what he saw as his duty to his family. At
> best he turns a blind eye where he could act, at worst he schemes to
> burn thousands alive. Having read it all from his POV, we've had front
> row seats to his rationalizations and justifications for many an
> unspeakable act. It's easy to lose ourselves in these rationalizations
> and fail to see the act for what it is.
>
> Having a bard killed because he knew that the Hand was bedding a whore.
> Sound like a good guy? Would Ned Stark have done it?
Yeah, he is flawed, but to be quite fair, the bard was blackmailing him
and he tried to make a generous offer to end blackmail, but
nnnooooo.......He has a genuine concern for Sansa and others who are
hurt by Joffrey.

>
> Cercei is an evil idiot. Tyrion is an evil genius.
Cersei is an evil idiot alright, but how is Tyrion evil? He puts his
ass on the line to do the right thing (Janos Slynt anyone? Standing up
to Joffrey's psychotic behavior?), and while he certainly hides the
darker secrets of House Lannister and occasionally does bad things,
these stem out of a sense of duty and human weakness. Sure, he is not
a saint, but calling him evil is uncalled for.

>
> "I think Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion was not the wild insane selfish act
> that many here think it was."
>
> Good points all, but the reason I consider this act very selfish on her
> part is that she was only thinking of the injustice done to her family.
> She spent not a second considering how capturing Tyrion might impact
> the realm. The Lannisters were the most powerful family in Westerios
> and she takes Tyrion prisoner? One would think she would have appealed
> to the King, or his Hand for justice rather than take it into her own
> hands.
It is not like she walked in to the inn thinking "Look, there is
Tyrion, let's get him!" She specifically hoped he wouldn't see her so
that she could return to Winterfell and take things slow, bt from her
understanding of events when Tyrion saw her he would know shit was
hitting the fan and take action (presumably against Ned) to make sure
the investigation was halted.

>
> "Sansa is my hero."
>
> *barf* - excuse me.. it's not you. I just always react this way to
> any mention of Sansa. I don't care if she's a believable 13 year old
> girl. Her chapters are still very painful to get through. I really
> hope Littlefinger turns her into a badass. GRRM is the man... I have
> faith that he wrote Sansa as annoyingly as he did so that the contrast
> with the Sansa of the future will make her look even cooler.
13 year old girls, real or ficticious, are pains.

Aaron F. Bourque

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 9:07:40 PM1/8/06
to
ConquerorMarr wrote:
> 13 year old girls, real or ficticious, are pains.

Except--and especially--to 13 year old boys.

Aaron F. Bourque

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 9:14:34 PM1/8/06
to
ConquerorMarr wrote:
> 13 year old girls, real or ficticious, are pains.

Except--and especially--to 13 year old boys.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Message has been deleted

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 12:06:50 PM1/9/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, 31 Dec 2005 13:43:05 -0800 - there was
this guy, or something, called "google...@Dread.net"
<google...@Dread.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:

>1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
>Lyanna's son?

Yes.

In fact, not even you think this. It's an illusion caused by mass
hysteria.

>2) I hate Catelyn Stark.

You're the only one who hates Catelyn Stark too, I'm afraid. We all
really like her. *grin* In fact, there was some debate as to whether
we'd call this group "alt.fan.grrm", or "alt.fan.catelyn-stark". We
ended up compromising.

>3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture.

I think somebody once posted to the group a year or so back who
thought Sansa was annoying or stupid or something. What I mainly
remember about that time was that the same dude had this crazy theory
about Daenerys toppling Cersei from the throne, rather than Margaery.

It was pretty revolutionary for its time.

>5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
>(This one seems kinda obvious).

Knowing what we do now, I wouldn't be surprised if some other people
begin following this line of thought sooner or later.

>6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
>think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
>back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.

Hee. Okay, I'll give my annoying sarcasm attempts a rest for a minute,
and say that I'm sure the Hound has at least a couple more dramatic
scenes left in him, including scenes of closure with Sansa and Gregor.

>7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.

I doubt it.

But it would be a nice way of bumping him off and soiling Brienne all
at once.

>Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.

Welcome aboard. If you've read this far without deciding I am a total
ass, you are once again completely alone in your outrageous, unpopular
opinion.


C&J

--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 12:08:53 PM1/9/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:20:29 GMT - there
was this guy, or something, called Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net>,

and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:

>> Capable of empathy and sympathy for other people's emotions . . .
>
>Calm, mature, mostly diplomatic.

NoBKryten: Prim, proper, almost austere.

Hee hee, sorry. I'm jetlagged. Bear with me through this afternoon of
gibberish.

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 12:09:51 PM1/9/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:54:21 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called Penelope Periwinkle
<pperi...@mindspring.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:

>>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>>> except Viserys)
>>
>>Joffrey.
>
>I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.

*winces and crosses legs*

Penelope Periwinkle

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 1:56:11 PM1/9/06
to
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:09:51 +0200, Chucky & Janica
<janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:

>Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:54:21 -0500 -
>there was this guy, or something, called Penelope Periwinkle
><pperi...@mindspring.com>, and they made us all feel better by
>saying the following stuff:
>
>>>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>>>> except Viserys)
>>>
>>>Joffrey.
>>
>>I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.
>
>*winces and crosses legs*

No, no, no, I'm not suggesting cutting anything off, just that Joffrey
was simply what Cercei would have been if she had been born with an
outie instead of an innie.

google...@dread.net

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 3:08:32 PM1/9/06
to
"how is Tyrion evil? He puts his ass on the line to do the right
thing"

When has Tyrion ever put his ass on the line to do the right thing
unless he or his family would directly benefit? It's true he has tried
to work around his sister's and nephew's idiocy, occasionally putting
himself at risk, but all the while he is acting with the conviction
that his father would be doing the same thing. Was his father also not
evil? To what end are Tyrion's efforts? The welfare of the people of
King's Landing?

Did he turn his brother in for throwing a child out the window? He had
many chances to do the right thing.
Did he help Sansa escape Joffrey?
Did he oppose the crowning of an illegitimate king? (Joffrey, born of
insest)

I could go on. To my recollection, Tyrion has never put his ass on the
line to do the "right thing".

Once again, don't get me wrong. I *LOVE* Tyrion. He is hands-down the
best character in the entire story. But he's evil. At least as evil
as his father. He has been humanised to our eyes as readers by the
fact that we know his thoughts and the mental processes by which he
comes to his decisions.

Most evil men find ways to justify their evil deeds to themselves.
Evil geniuses are especially good at this. In the end, a Good person
never uses evil as a means to an end, even if that end is arguably
good. (And this too would be hard to prove in Tyrion's case. His end
has been securing his family's hold on power, and being a dutiful son
to his evil father.)

mgraves

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Jan 9, 2006, 4:27:22 PM1/9/06
to

"Penelope Periwinkle" <pperi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:o4c5s1tmheoka4vak...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:09:51 +0200, Chucky & Janica
> <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>
>>Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:54:21 -0500 -
>>there was this guy, or something, called Penelope Periwinkle
>><pperi...@mindspring.com>, and they made us all feel better by
>>saying the following stuff:
>>
>>>>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>>>>> except Viserys)
>>>>
>>>>Joffrey.
>>>
>>>I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.
>>
>>*winces and crosses legs*
>
> No, no, no, I'm not suggesting cutting anything off, just that Joffrey
> was simply what Cercei would have been if she had been born with an
> outie instead of an innie.

It was the whole "mispeeled" and "penis" in the same sentence. Apparently,
Chucky had a botched circumcision which the doctor referred to as a
"mispeel".


John Vreeland

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 9:00:08 PM1/9/06
to
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:06:50 +0200, Chucky & Janica
<janica...@kolumbus.finland> opined:

>Once upon a time - for example, 31 Dec 2005 13:43:05 -0800 - there was
>this guy, or something, called "google...@Dread.net"
><google...@Dread.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying
>the following stuff:
>
>>1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
>>Lyanna's son?
>
>Yes.
>
>In fact, not even you think this. It's an illusion caused by mass
>hysteria.

This is a tenet of the TP (Trilogy Parentage) cult. Everyone in
ASoIaF is a child of either Rhaegar, Aerys, or Robert Baratheon.

Or a combination thereof.

>>2) I hate Catelyn Stark.
>
>You're the only one who hates Catelyn Stark too, I'm afraid. We all
>really like her. *grin* In fact, there was some debate as to whether
>we'd call this group "alt.fan.grrm", or "alt.fan.catelyn-stark". We
>ended up compromising.

This is evidence of your lack of empathy. But fear not, Catelyn will
become much more comprehensible to you by the end of book 3.

>>3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture.
>
>I think somebody once posted to the group a year or so back who
>thought Sansa was annoying or stupid or something. What I mainly
>remember about that time was that the same dude had this crazy theory
>about Daenerys toppling Cersei from the throne, rather than Margaery.
>
>It was pretty revolutionary for its time.

True. But do not forget that Sansa chapters serve two purposes: 1) to
provide a POV for King's Landing, and 2) to provide room for her
character to grow. And 3) to provide a source of semi-paedophilic
titillation.

>>5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
>>(This one seems kinda obvious).
>
>Knowing what we do now, I wouldn't be surprised if some other people
>begin following this line of thought sooner or later.

Based on what?

>>6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
>>think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
>>back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.
>
>Hee. Okay, I'll give my annoying sarcasm attempts a rest for a minute,
>and say that I'm sure the Hound has at least a couple more dramatic
>scenes left in him, including scenes of closure with Sansa and Gregor.

Oh yeah, stick your neck out on that one prognosticator.

>>7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.
>
>I doubt it.
>
>But it would be a nice way of bumping him off and soiling Brienne all
>at once.

Sounds awful, I agree. But why do you doubt it?

>>Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.
>
>Welcome aboard. If you've read this far without deciding I am a total
>ass, you are once again completely alone in your outrageous, unpopular
>opinion.

Not a total ass. Maybe a pompous ass, or maybe an asshat? No, wait,
I've got it: A blazing red comet of an ass.


--
John Vreeland (Vreejack)
"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!"--_Ivanhoe_

Peter Wright

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Jan 9, 2006, 9:58:33 PM1/9/06
to
John Vreeland <vree...@hotmail.com> coughed up:

> Chucky & Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> opined:
> >"google...@Dread.net" wrote:
> >>1) Jon Snow. Am I the only one who thinks Jon Snow is Rhaegar and
> >>Lyanna's son?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> >In fact, not even you think this. It's an illusion caused by mass
> >hysteria.

> This is a tenet of the TP (Trilogy Parentage) cult. Everyone in
> ASoIaF is a child of either Rhaegar, Aerys, or Robert Baratheon.
>
> Or a combination thereof.

*helpless giggling*

Well done, John. You have broken my brain.

> >>2) I hate Catelyn Stark.
> >
> >You're the only one who hates Catelyn Stark too, I'm afraid. We all
> >really like her. *grin* In fact, there was some debate as to whether
> >we'd call this group "alt.fan.grrm", or "alt.fan.catelyn-stark". We
> >ended up compromising.

> This is evidence of your lack of empathy. But fear not, Catelyn
> will become much more comprehensible to you by the end of book 3.

What? googlegroups-dread isn't even at the end of book 3? Woh.

[ snip ]


> >>Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.
> >
> >Welcome aboard. If you've read this far without deciding I am a
> >total ass, you are once again completely alone in your outrageous,
> >unpopular opinion.

> Not a total ass. Maybe a pompous ass, or maybe an asshat? No,
> wait, I've got it: A blazing red comet of an ass.

"Willow! It's the pwophecy!" "What pwophecy?" "Oh you know, the one
that goes 'when the blazing red comet of an ass appears, duck and
cover'?"

> John Vreeland (Vreejack)

Pete.
--
http://flooble.net/blog
The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at
least until we've finished building it.

Ilya the Recusant

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 1:01:05 AM1/10/06
to
In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, Chucky &

You're not a total ass. But a barrel full of amazing asses seem to
think so.

But they're asses and think Jon is related to Rhaegar and that Brienne
doesn't at all sound like a kind of really smelly goat-cheese.

>C&J

Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
----
www.livejournal.com/users/ohilya

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 9:54:42 AM1/10/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:56:11 -0500 -

there was this guy, or something, called Penelope Periwinkle
<pperi...@mindspring.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:

>>>>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>>>>> except Viserys)
>>>>
>>>>Joffrey.
>>>
>>>I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.
>>
>>*winces and crosses legs*
>
>No, no, no, I'm not suggesting cutting anything off, just that Joffrey
>was simply what Cercei would have been if she had been born with an
>outie instead of an innie.

There's something about seeing the word "peeled" and "penis" in a
sentence together that makes me wince and cross my legs, alright?
Let's move on.

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 9:55:12 AM1/10/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:27:22 -0600 - there
was this guy, or something, called "mgraves" <mgr...@mgraves.com>,

and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:

>It was the whole "mispeeled" and "penis" in the same sentence. Apparently,

>Chucky had a botched circumcision which the doctor referred to as a
>"mispeel".

I still get headaches on cold days.

Yes, this was a lame "dickhead" joke.

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 10:02:58 AM1/10/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:00:08 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called John Vreeland
<vree...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:

>This is a tenet of the TP (Trilogy Parentage) cult. Everyone in


>ASoIaF is a child of either Rhaegar, Aerys, or Robert Baratheon.
>
>Or a combination thereof.

Three Men and a Little Plot Twist.

>>>3) Reading Sansa chapters is like torture.
>>
>>I think somebody once posted to the group a year or so back who
>>thought Sansa was annoying or stupid or something. What I mainly
>>remember about that time was that the same dude had this crazy theory
>>about Daenerys toppling Cersei from the throne, rather than Margaery.
>>
>>It was pretty revolutionary for its time.
>
>True. But do not forget that Sansa chapters serve two purposes: 1) to
>provide a POV for King's Landing, and 2) to provide room for her
>character to grow. And 3) to provide a source of semi-paedophilic
>titillation.

Hee hee. Partial credit.

>>>5) I think the pretty queen who is going to bring Cercei down is Dany.
>>>(This one seems kinda obvious).
>>
>>Knowing what we do now, I wouldn't be surprised if some other people
>>begin following this line of thought sooner or later.
>
>Based on what?

Nothing. I was just being mindlessly sarcastic.

>>>6) What are the odds that Sansa and the Hound are going to hook up? I
>>>think Sandor is just hanging out with the monks right now. He'll be
>>>back. And he's hanging out not too far from where Alayne is.
>>
>>Hee. Okay, I'll give my annoying sarcasm attempts a rest for a minute,
>>and say that I'm sure the Hound has at least a couple more dramatic
>>scenes left in him, including scenes of closure with Sansa and Gregor.
>
>Oh yeah, stick your neck out on that one prognosticator.

I'm willing to bet somebody will argue with me no matter how
well-hedged my bets are. So no matter how safely I hedge, I am still
living on the edge.

>>>7) Will Brienne kill Jaime? I hope not.
>>
>>I doubt it.
>>
>>But it would be a nice way of bumping him off and soiling Brienne all
>>at once.
>
>Sounds awful, I agree. But why do you doubt it?

Because it's Brienne. She couldn't bring herself to kill Jaime unless
he did something absoutely awful between now and the hypothetical
death-scene. If she was going to kill him for past crimes, she would
have already.

And judging by the way Jaime has been acting lately, his chances of
doing something that would encourage Brienne to kill him in the next
book or two seem remote. What I am seeing, at best, is a situation in
which Brienne promises to track Jaime down, goes off after him,
confronts him, but then can't kill him because he's done nothing
wrong. So she is all torn and anguished, but has to break her promise.
Not that an oath given while you're in the middle of being hanged
means anything anyway (except, possibly, to Brienne).

For various related reasons, I don't see her going off to kill Jaime
just because she promised to do it in order to get out of being hanged
(for a start, I don't think that was what she promised anyway), and
even if it was to save Pod's life, I just don't think it would occur
to her.

But time will tell.

>>>Anyway, please be gentle. This is my first posts on this newsgroup.
>>
>>Welcome aboard. If you've read this far without deciding I am a total
>>ass, you are once again completely alone in your outrageous, unpopular
>>opinion.
>
>Not a total ass. Maybe a pompous ass, or maybe an asshat? No, wait,
>I've got it: A blazing red comet of an ass.

I love it. I am Asshole Asshat.

*blazes*

Chucky & Janica

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 10:03:53 AM1/10/06
to
Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:58:33 GMT - there
was this guy, or something, called Peter Wright <pe...@flooble.net>,

and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:

>> This is a tenet of the TP (Trilogy Parentage) cult. Everyone in


>> ASoIaF is a child of either Rhaegar, Aerys, or Robert Baratheon.
>>
>> Or a combination thereof.
>
>*helpless giggling*
>
>Well done, John. You have broken my brain.

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "I need TP for my bunghole."

Ilya the Recusant

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 12:23:32 PM1/10/06
to
In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, Chucky &

Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:56:11 -0500 -
>there was this guy, or something, called Penelope Periwinkle
><pperi...@mindspring.com>, and they made us all feel better by
>saying the following stuff:
>
>>>>>> but can you think of a more Cercei-like character than Catelyn? (Hmm..
>>>>>> except Viserys)
>>>>>
>>>>>Joffrey.
>>>>
>>>>I think you mispeeled Cercei-with-a-penis.
>>>
>>>*winces and crosses legs*
>>
>>No, no, no, I'm not suggesting cutting anything off, just that Joffrey
>>was simply what Cercei would have been if she had been born with an
>>outie instead of an innie.
>
>There's something about seeing the word "peeled" and "penis" in a
>sentence together that makes me wince and cross my legs, alright?
>Let's move on.

*cues M&M jokes*

ConquerorMarr

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 12:47:51 PM1/10/06
to

google...@Dread.net wrote:
> "how is Tyrion evil? He puts his ass on the line to do the right
> thing"
>
> When has Tyrion ever put his ass on the line to do the right thing
> unless he or his family would directly benefit? It's true he has tried
> to work around his sister's and nephew's idiocy, occasionally putting
> himself at risk, but all the while he is acting with the conviction
> that his father would be doing the same thing. Was his father also not
> evil? To what end are Tyrion's efforts? The welfare of the people of
> King's Landing?

How about when he threatened Tomen to protect a prostitute? House
Lannister really appreciated that. Or when he took on Slynt and
Maester Pycelle, again, all for House Lannister? And a good deal of
the Joffrey stuff, not in the least beneficial to House Lannister and
ultimately used to prove Tyrion guilty of a murder he did not commit.
For that matter, Tyrion seems like the only person in King's Landing
who DOES notice the plight of the small folk. As for Tywin, we really
do not know. All the actions we have seen of him indicate that he is
evil (his casual indifference to brutality and forth), but for all we
know he saved little lost puppies in his spare time.


>
> Did he turn his brother in for throwing a child out the window? He had
> many chances to do the right thing.

No, like I said, he is not a saint. He loved Jaime and had been raised
to be loyal to House Lannister, but taht hardly makes him evil.


> Did he help Sansa escape Joffrey?

No, but he certainly helped her live under him and stood up for her.
What reason was there for being nice to Sansa? None, except a sense of
decency.


> Did he oppose the crowning of an illegitimate king? (Joffrey, born of
> insest)

No, but see above. He is not a saint, but this STILL does not make him
evil. At best, this evidence proves that he is not actively GOOD,
although I contend that there were a number of times when he is, in
fact, going out of his way to do the right thing.


>
> I could go on. To my recollection, Tyrion has never put his ass on the
> line to do the "right thing".

Except for all those things I just mentioned.


>
> Once again, don't get me wrong. I *LOVE* Tyrion. He is hands-down the
> best character in the entire story. But he's evil. At least as evil
> as his father. He has been humanised to our eyes as readers by the
> fact that we know his thoughts and the mental processes by which he
> comes to his decisions.

There is no question that he is morally ambiguous, capable of doing
things that are cruel and shocking (killing the bard), and certainly
turned a blind eye to many of his families misdeeds, but at the same
time he goes out of his way to help people (as mentioned above, and
throw in designing a saddle for Bran), even to the point of taking a
strong stand AGAINST his House (the whore). His father, by contrast,
is never shown giving a flying fuck (or normal fuck for that matter)
about anyone's well being besides House Lannister. The only ACTIVELY
bad thing you pin on Tyrion is killing the bard, but again, that was in
response to blackmail that he feared would kill the woman that he
(foolishly) loved, and he tried to negotiate a more reasonable
settlement. Tywin, OTOH, endorsed all out brutallity through his
continued use of Gregor Clegane, had demonstrated several times that
mass slaughter was an effective policy tool for himself, and was
generally an ass.


>
> Most evil men find ways to justify their evil deeds to themselves.
> Evil geniuses are especially good at this. In the end, a Good person
> never uses evil as a means to an end, even if that end is arguably
> good. (And this too would be hard to prove in Tyrion's case. His end
> has been securing his family's hold on power, and being a dutiful son
> to his evil father.)

The only ways that Tyrion is a good son by ignoring morality are the
ways that he ignores the wrongdoings of his house. Plenty of good
people lived in Nazi Germany and loved their country even as it
proceeded to slaughter some 10 million Jews, dissidents, Slavs,
homosexuals and other groups. As I said before, he is no saint, but to
call him "evil" is mre than a little extreme. Morally weak? Sure, he
doesn't do what he knows is right all the time. Do you? I know I
don't. Still, he tries to do the right thing despite his weakness and
so I put him squarely down as a good guy.

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