Chapter of the Week - AGoT: Catelyn
Ben
search the group archive and couldn't find the original, though
interestingly enough I found some responses to it? Could be my
relative Usenet incompetence. In any case...
Daenerys I
Chapter Summary:
Intro to the Targaryen clan, or at least their sad remnants, the heir
apparent, a douchy little prat called Viserys and our young princess
Daenerys, who at this point is a slip of a girl, frightened by her
brother's rages. Even at this point Daenerys is far the cleverer,
understanding that Magister Illyrio, whose home they live in and whose
food they eat comfortably, clearly wants something from them. Viserys
is meanwhile so enchanted with himself that it could not occur to him
that anyone would not serve him just on sight.
Our first mention of the horselords of Khal Drogo coincides with some
pervo action from Viserys as he fondles his young sister and then
yells at her for not being sexy enough. I just got the very disturbing
image of Huggy Bear from Starsky and Hutch, then Wayne Brady from
Chapelle's show, mostly just pimp action, and for your sister? Ug
We then get some history of the sack of King's Landing and the
mercilessness of Robert the Usurper and the Kingslayer betraying their
father. Of course from this POV (indeed Viserys' memories, as Daenerys
was little more than a babe herself) this is to be expected. Only
later do we find them largely to be true recollections of the brutal
murder of infants and women. The last loyal Targaryen servant, Sir
Willem of Dary, managed to rescue Viserys and Dany and make off with
them to Braavos, where he promptly died, leaving them largely alone.
Whether it is Viserys' paranoia or truth (could be a bit of both in
retrospect), the syblings moved constantly moments ahead of an
assassin's dagger. Selling the last of the Targaryen treasures one by
one, at this point Viserys is called the Beggar King, living off the
good graces of the fat slaver Illyrio, apparently at his mercy. He
also apparently has come up with the idea of selling Dany off to the
chieftain of the horse-lords in exchange for an army to retake
Westeros.
We are also introduced to Ser Jorah Mormount in Drogo's tent, but only
introduced, as Viserys bites off a bit more perverse pleasure in
sexualizing his sister to make her more attractive...
Points for Discussion:
Illyrio? What is his deal. We find out more later, but even after four
books, we still don't know exactly what his game is.
Khal Drogo's army: There is no indication in the books that Drogo ever
had any intention of taking his legions across the sea to retake
Westeros, and it does not seem that Drogo ever made any such promises.
Can we safely assume that Illyrio communicated this to Viserys, who
never appears to have actually met Drogo? What was Illyrio trying to
do here? In an ideal world, what would have happened after Drogo
received Dany?
How did Jorah get in with Khal Drogo? Seems a very strange coincidence
unless he knew that the Targaryens would be there? Lots to think about
that we don't know at this point.
Sex:
Unless you are into some weird Internet stuff, the sexualizing of Dany
by her brother and her apparent adolescence stopped this one for me,
so just .5/5 woken dragons
Gore-o-meter:
Nothing at all other than the reminescence of the Sack, another .5/5
babes ripped from the breast and dashed against the wall
Overall:
A good chapter, though at this point I had no idea how important Dany
would prove to be. May just be my lack of foreshadowing comprehension.
Viserys ugh and Illyrio a real mystery (which hopefully we will learn
more about with...well whenever we get more aSoIaF). Intro short and
sweet.
Ben
will confuse anyone left on the group trying to read it. Obviously
should be Daenerys I, not Catelyn again...
Penelope
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>Okay, with Penelope giving me the option I am taking it. Tried to
>search the group archive and couldn't find the original, though
>interestingly enough I found some responses to it? Could be my
>relative Usenet incompetence. In any case...
Don't want to leave you hanging,nothing worse than waiting for
comments on a CHOW. Nice job, and I'll get around to commenting
tomorrow. Too many fine beers tonight for deep thought.
Penelope
--
"Web boards. Faggoty way of running the internet if you ask me."
- Chucky, in alt.fan.grrm
chro...@gmail.com
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
Here's something that just occurred to me:
Is there any real difference between Viserys and the exile prince
whose name escapes me in King Robert's court? They both seem to exist
at the pleasure of their host, and they both go away in the first
book. Anybody remember any word of the exile prince whoring out his
sister to Robert?
Chucky & Janica
>Okay, with Penelope giving me the option I am taking it. Tried to
>search the group archive and couldn't find the original, though
>interestingly enough I found some responses to it? Could be my
>relative Usenet incompetence. In any case...
Heh, it'll do.
>Illyrio? What is his deal. We find out more later, but even after four
>books, we still don't know exactly what his game is.
Just your basic profiteer, or a true Targaryen loyalist?
>Khal Drogo's army: There is no indication in the books that Drogo ever
>had any intention of taking his legions across the sea to retake
>Westeros, and it does not seem that Drogo ever made any such promises.
He didn't want to. He hated the sea. Danaerys convinced him to, and I
think the old women and their silly prophecy helped. But it only
partly convinced him, and then he died before he could do it.
In fact, Danaerys still hasn't managed it either.
>Can we safely assume that Illyrio communicated this to Viserys, who
>never appears to have actually met Drogo? What was Illyrio trying to
>do here? In an ideal world, what would have happened after Drogo
>received Dany?
Whose ideal world?
In Viserys's ideal world, Drogo would have made all his soldiers swear
their eternal loyalty and all their horses and possessions over to
Viserys, and then dropped dead. And Viserys would have worn his head
as a hat and gone back to Westeros and killed everyone.
>How did Jorah get in with Khal Drogo? Seems a very strange coincidence
>unless he knew that the Targaryens would be there? Lots to think about
>that we don't know at this point.
I was thinking about this, and it seems to be that Jorah may have
known him from his slave trading. Of course, we don't know about this
at the time, but Jorah had a fancy lady to keep entertained and he
turned to slave-trading to make ends meet, which ultimately saw him
banished.
>A good chapter, though at this point I had no idea how important Dany
>would prove to be.
Well, she is the other side to the Jon coin, but I was thinking for a
while that it was Viserys for a while. He was too much of a prat to
survive long in the company of Drogo, though.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
>Is there any real difference between Viserys and the exile prince
>whose name escapes me in King Robert's court?
I remember him, but not the name. He wasn't a Targaryen, though, was
he? He was some sort of dude from the general vicinity Danaerys is now
conquering though.
>They both seem to exist
>at the pleasure of their host, and they both go away in the first
>book. Anybody remember any word of the exile prince whoring out his
>sister to Robert?
Nope, that was Renly whoring out Loras's sister.
C&J
Ben
wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> >books, we still don't know exactly what his game is.
>
> Just your basic profiteer, or a true Targaryen loyalist?
>
of these conspirators, right? In any case I think that it is murkily
clear that Illyrio and Varys both have great interest in bringing Dany
back, and it isn't necessarily profitable for either, unless they have
some knowledge that the readers at this point don't. However neither
of these guys appears the type to be loyal to anyone. I think this is
one of the coolest mysteries in aSoIaF, though considering how pivotal
it is, I am guessing it will be another 20 years real time before we
know the answers...
> >Khal Drogo's army: There is no indication in the books that Drogo ever
> >had any intention of taking his legions across the sea to retake
> >Westeros, and it does not seem that Drogo ever made any such promises.
>
> He didn't want to. He hated the sea. Danaerys convinced him to, and I
> think the old women and their silly prophecy helped. But it only
> partly convinced him, and then he died before he could do it.
>
> In fact, Danaerys still hasn't managed it either.
>
Yeah, I forgot that she had convinced him to do it. Considering Dany's
return is probably the most important event in the whole series, this
sounds like another one we won't get for a loooong time.
> >Can we safely assume that Illyrio communicated this to Viserys, who
> >never appears to have actually met Drogo? What was Illyrio trying to
> >do here? In an ideal world, what would have happened after Drogo
> >received Dany?
>
> Whose ideal world?
>
> In Viserys's ideal world, Drogo would have made all his soldiers swear
> their eternal loyalty and all their horses and possessions over to
> Viserys, and then dropped dead. And Viserys would have worn his head
> as a hat and gone back to Westeros and killed everyone.
>
Actually I was thinking in Illyrio's ideal world, since he was pulling
a lot more strings than Viserys. I think it would be fair to say that
Viserys getting killed wasn't a huge surprise to anyone other than to
Daenerys, but I wonder what the overall plan was for Drogo's horsemen.
I think it is fair to say that even Illyrio/Varys could not have
planned for all the stuff that is going on across the ocean in the
future books, unless they have some reliable means of telling the
future, which magic has not shown itself yet in the series.
> >How did Jorah get in with Khal Drogo? Seems a very strange coincidence
> >unless he knew that the Targaryens would be there? Lots to think about
> >that we don't know at this point.
>
> I was thinking about this, and it seems to be that Jorah may have
> known him from his slave trading. Of course, we don't know about this
> at the time, but Jorah had a fancy lady to keep entertained and he
> turned to slave-trading to make ends meet, which ultimately saw him
> banished.
>
Excellent point, I forgot about the reason Jorah was banished. So does
Jorah make the deal with Varys to keep tabs on Dany after he hears
about the impending nuptuals? That makes more sense.
> >A good chapter, though at this point I had no idea how important Dany
> >would prove to be.
>
> Well, she is the other side to the Jon coin, but I was thinking for a
> while that it was Viserys for a while. He was too much of a prat to
> survive long in the company of Drogo, though.
>
Not the first prat to survive longer than he should in the series,
though he was the first truly deserving worm to buy it in the series,
followed not soon enough by Joffrey. On that note, we know how many
just and honorably folks bought the farm during the series, would it
be fruitful to discuss how many people that the readers hate have
bought it? Following these two we have Tywin Lannister (some redeeming
qualities, but overall a total bastard) Vargo Hoat and his band of
merry men, but beyond them not a lot of truly deserving people have
gotten their just rewards. The Mountain is still alive (more or less).
Most of the rest that have been killed, like the numerous Freys, have
only been connected to bastardity.
Beyond this, who absolutely still needs to die? Cersei obviously, some
might say Jaime, though pretty clear that isn't going to happen.
Walder Frey and a couple of his deserving sons. The rest are very
gray, though I am interested in who the group thinks is most
deserving. Oh, Randyll Tarly too, add him to the list. Sure I will
think of some others... The Kettleblacks? Melisandre? Rattleshirt?...
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Illyrio? What is his deal. We find out more later, but even after four
> > >books, we still don't know exactly what his game is.
>
> > Just your basic profiteer, or a true Targaryen loyalist?
>
> Considering the relation to Varys and..somebody else?
Varys got the kids out of King's Landing, then they lived in the house
with the red door ... wasn't that Illyrio's house?
> There were three
> of these conspirators, right? In any case I think that it is murkily
> clear that Illyrio and Varys both have great interest in bringing Dany
> back, and it isn't necessarily profitable for either, unless they have
> some knowledge that the readers at this point don't.
Of course it's a bit tricky to make this sort of theory about either
(or all three, if there was a third one) of the conspirators, because
at this point it wasn't Danaerys they would be putting back on the
throne, but Viserys. And he was a certified nutbag. So if it was
Targaryen loyalism at work, I don't know if Viserys was the right guy
to inspire it.
Of course, then we get into Varys territory. It's entirely possible
that Varys knew Viserys was going to be a nutbag and Danaerys was
going to be a Queen of Destiny, and knew she was going to wake up the
dragons (hence he arranged for Illyrio to give them to her), and
arranged the marriage to Drogo knowing that Drogo would get the shits
with Viserys and kill him once he got his side of the deal, and then
go on to get killed and leave Danaerys in a position to make herself
into the aforementioned Queen of Destiny.
But that's just how Viserys rolls. He makes omniscience look like
Down's Syndrome.
> However neither
> of these guys appears the type to be loyal to anyone.
That's true. Illyrio seems to be your run-of-the-mill merchant
sleazebag, and Varys seems to run around wearing disguises and telling
people things just to get his nonexistent rocks off.
> I think this is
> one of the coolest mysteries in aSoIaF, though considering how pivotal
> it is, I am guessing it will be another 20 years real time before we
> know the answers...
If then.
> > >Can we safely assume that Illyrio communicated this to Viserys, who
> > >never appears to have actually met Drogo? What was Illyrio trying to
> > >do here? In an ideal world, what would have happened after Drogo
> > >received Dany?
>
> > Whose ideal world?
>
> > In Viserys's ideal world, Drogo would have made all his soldiers swear
> > their eternal loyalty and all their horses and possessions over to
> > Viserys, and then dropped dead. And Viserys would have worn his head
> > as a hat and gone back to Westeros and killed everyone.
>
> Actually I was thinking in Illyrio's ideal world, since he was pulling
> a lot more strings than Viserys. I think it would be fair to say that
> Viserys getting killed wasn't a huge surprise to anyone other than to
> Daenerys,
Not a surprise, but - see above - I draw the line and descend into
sarcasm at the idea that it was planned by Varys all along. I mean,
Rhaegar had to be involved at some point. And Wylla.
> but I wonder what the overall plan was for Drogo's horsemen.
> I think it is fair to say that even Illyrio/Varys could not have
> planned for all the stuff that is going on across the ocean in the
> future books, unless they have some reliable means of telling the
> future, which magic has not shown itself yet in the series.
Hmm, I wouldn't put it past them, at least as far as being able to
react to events. Varys in Westeros, Illyrio in ... Southeros ... maybe
they could communicate? Not necessarily magically, but in some way.
Varys seems to know every little thing that's going on, which would
come in handy. Illyrio strikes me as little more than an agent.
I doubt he planned Viserys's death and Danaerys's rise - certainly
Drogo's death would have been unexpected - but that's not to say he
didn't plan *for* it. A guy like Viserys in a culture like the
Dothraki, you're right about his general prospects. It can't have been
a surprise to see Viserys get himself a hot gold perm. Perhaps Varys
could even have allowed one or another of Robert's assassins to get to
him, if he proved too inconvenient. There were all sorts of nasties
out there attempting to kill Danaerys, as I recall. More in CHOWs to
come, I'm sure.
So then Viserys dies and Danaerys is in a good position with a very
powerful foreign dignitary, if you can call Khal Drogo that (or,
indeed, call the positions he used "good"). His death would certainly
have been a blow, but she pulled through it like a little champion. I
really doubt that Varys and Illyrio saw *that* coming. Danaerys
climbing into the funeral bier and hatching dragon eggs, and then
going on to conquer the continent? Hmm, but Illyrio *did* give her the
eggs...
Maybe they were operating from the same prophecy that Melisandre got
about the stone dragons awakening with sacrifice, but got it far
closer to the mark? Maybe Illyrio thought Viserys might really wake
the dragon, so gave them the eggs because they're Targaryens. Drogo's
death turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to her, but
funnily enough Varys and Illyrio seemed to fade out of the picture at
that point.
> > >How did Jorah get in with Khal Drogo? Seems a very strange coincidence
> > >unless he knew that the Targaryens would be there? Lots to think about
> > >that we don't know at this point.
>
> > I was thinking about this, and it seems to be that Jorah may have
> > known him from his slave trading. Of course, we don't know about this
> > at the time, but Jorah had a fancy lady to keep entertained and he
> > turned to slave-trading to make ends meet, which ultimately saw him
> > banished.
>
> Excellent point, I forgot about the reason Jorah was banished. So does
> Jorah make the deal with Varys to keep tabs on Dany after he hears
> about the impending nuptuals? That makes more sense.
Danaerys banishes Jorah as well, doesn't she, after he betrays her? He
certainly made a deal with *someone*, but his purse-strings were very
easy to grab hold of, the way he waved them around at anything in a
frock.
> > >A good chapter, though at this point I had no idea how important Dany
> > >would prove to be.
>
> > Well, she is the other side to the Jon coin, but I was thinking for a
> > while that it was Viserys for a while. He was too much of a prat to
> > survive long in the company of Drogo, though.
>
> Not the first prat to survive longer than he should in the series,
> though he was the first truly deserving worm to buy it in the series,
> followed not soon enough by Joffrey.
And it was all good. Although Joffrey lasted longer than I expected,
it was all fine because he used that time well. By making himself even
more outrageously hateful and disgusting. Martin certainly does these
things nicely. Some of my favourite chapters were ones where Tyrion
slaps Joffrey around. I mean, a midget beating up a little boy. How
can you go wrong?
> On that note, we know how many
> just and honorably folks bought the farm during the series, would it
> be fruitful to discuss how many people that the readers hate have
> bought it?
Ooh, yes please.
> Following these two we have Tywin Lannister (some redeeming
> qualities, but overall a total bastard)
What redeeming qualities? I'm genuinely curious. I suppose he might
have made a good tactician and an implacably don't-fuck-with-him
politician, but these aren't so much redeeming qualities as facets of
his bastardness.
> Vargo Hoat and his band of
> merry men, but beyond them not a lot of truly deserving people have
> gotten their just rewards. The Mountain is still alive (more or less).
> Most of the rest that have been killed, like the numerous Freys, have
> only been connected to bastardity.
Yeah, some have died off-screen and may not be dead, most notably the
brothers Clegane.
Rorge and Biter copped it in the end of Brienne's thread so far, they
were amazing pieces of work. Robert was a bit of a cunt and paid the
ultimate penalty. Craster got his arse handed to him and the witch who
messed up Danaerys's husband and baby died sweetly. Jaime's dying in
installments.
Can't think of more off the top of my head.
> Beyond this, who absolutely still needs to die? Cersei obviously, some
> might say Jaime, though pretty clear that isn't going to happen.
Not for a while, anyway. I'm still hoping for it. It's the only way
he's ever going to come close to making up for his train wreck of a
life.
> Walder Frey and a couple of his deserving sons.
Yep.
> The rest are very
> gray, though I am interested in who the group thinks is most
> deserving. Oh, Randyll Tarly too, add him to the list.
Heh, absolutely, although I think there's going to be some more with
him, Martin has some father-issues to resolve through that plot
thread.
> Sure I will
> think of some others... The Kettleblacks?
I doubt many of them are going to make it through, although like Brom,
Martin seems to have a soft spot for shameless opportunists. Maybe
it's only *clever* opportunists, though, in which case the Kettleblack
clan are royally screwed.
But maybe less about the author's intentions, and more about where the
narrative has put them. In which case, Brom seems to be a survivor and
in a good spot, knowing when to back off. The Kettleblacks just don't
seem to know where to quit. I mean, having sex with the Queen Regent
and agreeing to pretend to have had sex with the Queen herself? Where
does that ever seem like a good idea? Nobody can be that dumb and
horny, can they?
Hmm.
> Melisandre?
Yeah, she's due.
> Rattleshirt?...
A lot of Wildlings bought it, but the most colourful remain. To be
fully utilised in time.
C&J
Michelle J. Haines
> On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:44:10 -0700 (PDT), Ben
> <frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>> However neither
>> of these guys appears the type to be loyal to anyone.
>
> That's true. Illyrio seems to be your run-of-the-mill merchant
> sleazebag, and Varys seems to run around wearing disguises and telling
> people things just to get his nonexistent rocks off.
I think making any assumptions about what Illyrio and Varys are based on
what they seem to be is a terrible idea. If there's anything that we've
learned about Varys, its that he's NEVER what he seems to be. And
frankly, while Illyrio is a merchant now...it wouldn't at all surprise
me if he is a merchant in part to fulfill this role as an ostensible
protector of the Targeryen line. Someone or something else is pulling
the strings here with this. My gut feeling is its not a straight
"loyalty to the original Targargen line" thing on the part of Varys,
either. Something else is behind it, and probably connected to some
mystical, magical, prophetical, religious hokus-pokery with the dragons.
JMO, of course.
>> I think this is
>> one of the coolest mysteries in aSoIaF, though considering how pivotal
>> it is, I am guessing it will be another 20 years real time before we
>> know the answers...
>
> If then.
I agree with that.
> Maybe they were operating from the same prophecy that Melisandre got
> about the stone dragons awakening with sacrifice, but got it far
> closer to the mark? Maybe Illyrio thought Viserys might really wake
> the dragon, so gave them the eggs because they're Targaryens. Drogo's
> death turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to her, but
> funnily enough Varys and Illyrio seemed to fade out of the picture at
> that point.
She's certainly operating well beyond their control at that point. At
least, as far as anything we can tell. Whatever they might be doing is
probably concentrated on making it easier for her to come home as much
as possible.
Michelle
Flutist
Chucky and the Fantabulous Webomophone
> > That's true. Illyrio seems to be your run-of-the-mill merchant
> > sleazebag, and Varys seems to run around wearing disguises and telling
> > people things just to get his nonexistent rocks off.
>
> I think making any assumptions about what Illyrio and Varys are based on
> what they seem to be is a terrible idea.
Oh. Did I?
> If there's anything that we've
> learned about Varys, its that he's NEVER what he seems to be.
Uh, we can't even be sure of that, actually. Not from what we've seen.
> And
> frankly, while Illyrio is a merchant now...it wouldn't at all surprise
> me if he is a merchant in part to fulfill this role as an ostensible
> protector of the Targeryen line.
He dropped the ball somewhere around Viserys's death, and didn't seem
to pick it up again after Drogo kicked the bucket.
> Someone or something else is pulling
> the strings here with this. My gut feeling is its not a straight
> "loyalty to the original Targargen line" thing on the part of Varys,
> either.
Ooh no, surely not.
> Something else is behind it, and probably connected to some
> mystical, magical, prophetical, religious hokus-pokery with the dragons.
The prophecy of the stone dragons, like I said. Why not?
> She's certainly operating well beyond their control at that point. At
> least, as far as anything we can tell. Whatever they might be doing is
> probably concentrated on making it easier for her to come home as much
> as possible.
Varys certainly made sure the Baratheon dynasty was a dog's breakfast
for her.
- Chucky & Mopho
Ben
>
> Varys got the kids out of King's Landing, then they lived in the house
> with the red door ... wasn't that Illyrio's house?
>
moved to Illyrio's house, though I guess that first one could have
been his as well, considering how godawful rich he is. All I remember
about that house is that Dany remembered it fondly. Was it Willem
Darry's house?
>
> Of course it's a bit tricky to make this sort of theory about either
> (or all three, if there was a third one) of the conspirators, because
> at this point it wasn't Danaerys they would be putting back on the
> throne, but Viserys. And he was a certified nutbag. So if it was
> Targaryen loyalism at work, I don't know if Viserys was the right guy
> to inspire it.
>
Agreed, and it never appears in the book that anybody is really loyal
to Viserys, other than Dany herself, despite the nipple-twisting.
> Of course, then we get into Varys territory. It's entirely possible
> that Varys knew Viserys was going to be a nutbag and Danaerys was
> going to be a Queen of Destiny, and knew she was going to wake up the
> dragons (hence he arranged for Illyrio to give them to her), and
> arranged the marriage to Drogo knowing that Drogo would get the shits
> with Viserys and kill him once he got his side of the deal, and then
> go on to get killed and leave Danaerys in a position to make herself
> into the aforementioned Queen of Destiny.
>
> But that's just how Viserys rolls. He makes omniscience look like
> Down's Syndrome.
>
Varys, I am sure you mean, and I agree. Varys doesn't seem to know the
future, but he has a damn good record of preparing for eventualities
before they happen.
> > However neither
> > of these guys appears the type to be loyal to anyone.
>
> That's true. Illyrio seems to be your run-of-the-mill merchant
> sleazebag, and Varys seems to run around wearing disguises and telling
> people things just to get his nonexistent rocks off.
>
Yeah, he does seem to enjoy the game for the pure purpose of the game
it seems, though with Varys, the entangling web of overall plot is
certainly yet thicker than we know.
>
> > Actually I was thinking in Illyrio's ideal world, since he was pulling
> > a lot more strings than Viserys. I think it would be fair to say that
> > Viserys getting killed wasn't a huge surprise to anyone other than to
> > Daenerys,
>
> Not a surprise, but - see above - I draw the line and descend into
> sarcasm at the idea that it was planned by Varys all along. I mean,
> Rhaegar had to be involved at some point. And Wylla.
>
Not planned, but perhaps an eventuality that he had the foresight to
prepare for? I honestly think that Varys could get thrown into a shit
puddle and come up smelling of roses, because he would have been
informed of said intent to throw and prepared the shit puddle
beforehand. Maybe by feeding producers of said shit puddle their
veggies?
> > but I wonder what the overall plan was for Drogo's horsemen.
> > I think it is fair to say that even Illyrio/Varys could not have
> > planned for all the stuff that is going on across the ocean in the
> > future books, unless they have some reliable means of telling the
> > future, which magic has not shown itself yet in the series.
>
> Hmm, I wouldn't put it past them, at least as far as being able to
> react to events. Varys in Westeros, Illyrio in ... Southeros ... maybe
> they could communicate? Not necessarily magically, but in some way.
> Varys seems to know every little thing that's going on, which would
> come in handy. Illyrio strikes me as little more than an agent.
>
Safe to say that Varys and Illyrio are definitely in regular contact,
through magical means or what have you. I think maybe Illyrio is a
little more than an agent, but if he is he's making a killing!
> I doubt he planned Viserys's death and Danaerys's rise - certainly
> Drogo's death would have been unexpected - but that's not to say he
> didn't plan *for* it. A guy like Viserys in a culture like the
> Dothraki, you're right about his general prospects. It can't have been
> a surprise to see Viserys get himself a hot gold perm. Perhaps Varys
> could even have allowed one or another of Robert's assassins to get to
> him, if he proved too inconvenient. There were all sorts of nasties
> out there attempting to kill Danaerys, as I recall. More in CHOWs to
> come, I'm sure.
>
"hot gold perm" heh heh heh.
Seems to me that the nasties out to get Dany were incompetent
freelancers, though I have some memory in the back of my head about
somebody nearly doing the deed early on. Too damn long since I have
read the first one...
> So then Viserys dies and Danaerys is in a good position with a very
> powerful foreign dignitary, if you can call Khal Drogo that (or,
> indeed, call the positions he used "good"). His death would certainly
> have been a blow, but she pulled through it like a little champion. I
> really doubt that Varys and Illyrio saw *that* coming. Danaerys
> climbing into the funeral bier and hatching dragon eggs, and then
> going on to conquer the continent? Hmm, but Illyrio *did* give her the
> eggs...
>
Maybe not the specifics, but having gotten the eggs (maybe from Varys
in the first place?), what better person to give them to? I can't see
anyone reasonably believing that Dany would conquer a whole hemisphere
with baby dragons, though. I think this plan is way ahead of
schedule...
> Maybe they were operating from the same prophecy that Melisandre got
> about the stone dragons awakening with sacrifice, but got it far
> closer to the mark? Maybe Illyrio thought Viserys might really wake
> the dragon, so gave them the eggs because they're Targaryens. Drogo's
> death turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to her, but
> funnily enough Varys and Illyrio seemed to fade out of the picture at
> that point.
>
Interesting that. We get a lot of Varys at this point, but nothing to
do with Dany at all. Maybe he was too busy scrambling to keep clear of
Cersei?
>
> > Excellent point, I forgot about the reason Jorah was banished. So does
> > Jorah make the deal with Varys to keep tabs on Dany after he hears
> > about the impending nuptuals? That makes more sense.
>
> Danaerys banishes Jorah as well, doesn't she, after he betrays her? He
> certainly made a deal with *someone*, but his purse-strings were very
> easy to grab hold of, the way he waved them around at anything in a
> frock.
>
The old double banishment. Jorah came off pretty poorly in our last
sighting of him. There's someone I am hoping for a redemption arc for.
But then again he didn't throw a kid out a window while giving it to
his sister... Maybe because the Mormount sister was a bit of a troll?
>
> And it was all good. Although Joffrey lasted longer than I expected,
> it was all fine because he used that time well. By making himself even
> more outrageously hateful and disgusting. Martin certainly does these
> things nicely. Some of my favourite chapters were ones where Tyrion
> slaps Joffrey around. I mean, a midget beating up a little boy. How
> can you go wrong?
>
There's a scene I NEED to see in the HBO series, which I think will
get that far before HBO starts thinking about cancelling it. I think
Peter Dinklage slapping a kid around would be HI-larious. Curious if
they can find a kid who can be enough of a bastard to pull off
Joffrey...
>
> Ooh, yes please.
>
> > Following these two we have Tywin Lannister (some redeeming
> > qualities, but overall a total bastard)
>
> What redeeming qualities? I'm genuinely curious. I suppose he might
> have made a good tactician and an implacably don't-fuck-with-him
> politician, but these aren't so much redeeming qualities as facets of
> his bastardness.
>
A good politician, an excellent money-maker, and very supportive (in a
bastardy way) of most of his family. Very small redeeming qualities,
I'll admit.
>
> Yeah, some have died off-screen and may not be dead, most notably the
> brothers Clegane.
>
Neither of them is dead, you can bank on that.
> Rorge and Biter copped it in the end of Brienne's thread so far, they
> were amazing pieces of work. Robert was a bit of a cunt and paid the
> ultimate penalty. Craster got his arse handed to him and the witch who
> messed up Danaerys's husband and baby died sweetly. Jaime's dying in
> installments.
>
Ah, pervy Craster, a worth addition indeed.
> Can't think of more off the top of my head.
>
Another one came to me while thinking about it. Amory Lorch, fed to
the bear. What about all those on Arya's list, several of them bought
it, right? All the Brave Companions are accounted for and dead, I
think...
> > Beyond this, who absolutely still needs to die? Cersei obviously, some
> > might say Jaime, though pretty clear that isn't going to happen.
>
> Not for a while, anyway. I'm still hoping for it. It's the only way
> he's ever going to come close to making up for his train wreck of a
> life.
>
Agreed.
> > The rest are very
> > gray, though I am interested in who the group thinks is most
> > deserving. Oh, Randyll Tarly too, add him to the list.
>
> Heh, absolutely, although I think there's going to be some more with
> him, Martin has some father-issues to resolve through that plot
> thread.
>
Sam's revenge!
> > Sure I will
> > think of some others... The Kettleblacks?
>
> I doubt many of them are going to make it through, although like Brom,
> Martin seems to have a soft spot for shameless opportunists. Maybe
> it's only *clever* opportunists, though, in which case the Kettleblack
> clan are royally screwed.
>
> But maybe less about the author's intentions, and more about where the
> narrative has put them. In which case, Brom seems to be a survivor and
> in a good spot, knowing when to back off. The Kettleblacks just don't
> seem to know where to quit. I mean, having sex with the Queen Regent
> and agreeing to pretend to have had sex with the Queen herself? Where
> does that ever seem like a good idea? Nobody can be that dumb and
> horny, can they?
>
Brom I think is safe, Martin has definitely shown some affinity for
him. I think all the Kettleblacks are going to buy it one by one,
though. Martin does not seem to reward the stupid for very long.
Had a couple more suggestions for those who still need to buy it.
Qyburn definitely. Alister Thorne and Janos Slynt? What about Robert
Arryn? I know he's a kid and all, but I hate him.
Can't believe I forgot Theon Greyjoy and the whole damn pack of Iron
Islander douchebags. Oh, and Roose Bolton's bastard, ummmm Ramsay
Snow!
What about Mace Tyrell? Something about him I dislike very much. And
that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
punched in the face.
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>> Varys got the kids out of King's Landing, then they lived in the house
>> with the red door ... wasn't that Illyrio's house?
>
>Was it? I think that was the first house they moved to, then later
>moved to Illyrio's house, though I guess that first one could have
>been his as well, considering how godawful rich he is. All I remember
>about that house is that Dany remembered it fondly. Was it Willem
>Darry's house?
I don't remember. We may have to see if it is mentioned in the CHOW.
>> Of course it's a bit tricky to make this sort of theory about either
>> (or all three, if there was a third one) of the conspirators, because
>> at this point it wasn't Danaerys they would be putting back on the
>> throne, but Viserys. And he was a certified nutbag. So if it was
>> Targaryen loyalism at work, I don't know if Viserys was the right guy
>> to inspire it.
>
>Agreed, and it never appears in the book that anybody is really loyal
>to Viserys, other than Dany herself, despite the nipple-twisting.
And that's more fear than loyalty, which is probably all Aerys and
Viserys could have expected out of their reigns.
>> Of course, then we get into Varys territory. It's entirely possible
>> that Varys knew Viserys was going to be a nutbag and Danaerys was
>> going to be a Queen of Destiny, and knew she was going to wake up the
>> dragons (hence he arranged for Illyrio to give them to her), and
>> arranged the marriage to Drogo knowing that Drogo would get the shits
>> with Viserys and kill him once he got his side of the deal, and then
>> go on to get killed and leave Danaerys in a position to make herself
>> into the aforementioned Queen of Destiny.
>>
>> But that's just how Viserys rolls. He makes omniscience look like
>> Down's Syndrome.
>
>Varys, I am sure you mean, and I agree.
Yeah, I meant Varys. Crap, I went back over that and changed several
"Viserys"s to "Varys"s, and still managed to miss one.
>Varys doesn't seem to know the
>future, but he has a damn good record of preparing for eventualities
>before they happen.
Yep. Of course, not much point preparing for them after they happen.
Unless of course he's living backwards through time. That would just
be weird but would also explain a lot about Varys.
>Yeah, he does seem to enjoy the game for the pure purpose of the game
>it seems, though with Varys, the entangling web of overall plot is
>certainly yet thicker than we know.
Do you think that whole thing he confided in Tyrion was for real, or
was his chumminess with Tyrion just another lie? Not even Tyrion
seemed sure, but if he was for real, then it was the closest we've
ever been to the real Varys.
>Not planned, but perhaps an eventuality that he had the foresight to
>prepare for? I honestly think that Varys could get thrown into a shit
>puddle and come up smelling of roses, because he would have been
>informed of said intent to throw and prepared the shit puddle
>beforehand. Maybe by feeding producers of said shit puddle their
>veggies?
I think it's entirely likely.
But it would take a lot to prepare for the eventuality that Viserys
would die, Drogo would die, Danaerys would have a demon miscarriage
and walk into her husband's funeral pyre with the witch who killed him
and an armful of dragon eggs and come out with a khalasar rather than
dead. Where were the grand plans when Drogo's bloodriders wanted to
cut and run? And, indeed, mostly did?
Maybe that was all planned too, because frankly she was better off
without them.
>Seems to me that the nasties out to get Dany were incompetent
>freelancers, though I have some memory in the back of my head about
>somebody nearly doing the deed early on. Too damn long since I have
>read the first one...
Yeah, there was a cockatrice or a mandrake or ... crap, some sort of
really poisonous acidic thing like a scorpion that the assassin
pretended was a jewelled scarab beetle or something. And then they
towed him behind the khalasar until there was nothing left of him.
>Maybe not the specifics, but having gotten the eggs (maybe from Varys
>in the first place?), what better person to give them to? I can't see
>anyone reasonably believing that Dany would conquer a whole hemisphere
>with baby dragons, though. I think this plan is way ahead of
>schedule...
She is the Queen of Destiny.
>> Maybe they were operating from the same prophecy that Melisandre got
>> about the stone dragons awakening with sacrifice, but got it far
>> closer to the mark? Maybe Illyrio thought Viserys might really wake
>> the dragon, so gave them the eggs because they're Targaryens. Drogo's
>> death turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to her, but
>> funnily enough Varys and Illyrio seemed to fade out of the picture at
>> that point.
>
>Interesting that. We get a lot of Varys at this point, but nothing to
>do with Dany at all. Maybe he was too busy scrambling to keep clear of
>Cersei?
She did seem very close to losing the plot and killing everyone. Which
is funny when you consider that Varys didn't even disappear like this
for Aerys. But now Cersei has him on the run.
Or, at least, that's sort of what it looks like. I'm sure he just, you
know, decided to run anyway because his plans were all coming to
fruition and he wanted a nice brisk run.
>> Danaerys banishes Jorah as well, doesn't she, after he betrays her? He
>> certainly made a deal with *someone*, but his purse-strings were very
>> easy to grab hold of, the way he waved them around at anything in a
>> frock.
>
>The old double banishment.
Heh, banished so hard he ended up back where he came from. Well, he
has to get banished one more time for that to happen.
> Jorah came off pretty poorly in our last
>sighting of him.
Didn't she send them off (him and Barristan Selmy) into a sewer to
infiltrate an enemy city? Or did she send him away after that?
I don't know if that was a good move, because he may well have been
loyal after that. Mind you, he had those purse strings...
>There's someone I am hoping for a redemption arc for.
>But then again he didn't throw a kid out a window while giving it to
>his sister... Maybe because the Mormount sister was a bit of a troll?
He couldn't afford his sister.
>> And it was all good. Although Joffrey lasted longer than I expected,
>> it was all fine because he used that time well. By making himself even
>> more outrageously hateful and disgusting. Martin certainly does these
>> things nicely. Some of my favourite chapters were ones where Tyrion
>> slaps Joffrey around. I mean, a midget beating up a little boy. How
>> can you go wrong?
>
>There's a scene I NEED to see in the HBO series, which I think will
>get that far before HBO starts thinking about cancelling it.
Fingers crossed.
>I think
>Peter Dinklage slapping a kid around would be HI-larious.
Agreed. I can see it becoming a YouTube meme very easily. Man, the
screen caps. *daydreams*
>Curious if
>they can find a kid who can be enough of a bastard to pull off
>Joffrey...
If they'd gotten their act together a bit more quickly, the kid who
plays Draco Malfoy could have been a good Joffrey. As it is, he might
just make Jaime. Unless they can find someone better.
>> > Following these two we have Tywin Lannister (some redeeming
>> > qualities, but overall a total bastard)
>>
>> What redeeming qualities? I'm genuinely curious. I suppose he might
>> have made a good tactician and an implacably don't-fuck-with-him
>> politician, but these aren't so much redeeming qualities as facets of
>> his bastardness.
>
>A good politician, an excellent money-maker, and very supportive (in a
>bastardy way) of most of his family. Very small redeeming qualities,
>I'll admit.
Hmm. I suppose when he decided to be nothing like his father, and
became the cold-as-ice motherfucker we know and love, he did achieve a
certain amount of power and influence and the ability to scare the
shit out of people. And all the Lannisters are family-oriented. At
least until the later generation, which is all about shagging and
killing each other. Like any normal family.
>> Rorge and Biter copped it in the end of Brienne's thread so far, they
>> were amazing pieces of work. Robert was a bit of a cunt and paid the
>> ultimate penalty. Craster got his arse handed to him and the witch who
>> messed up Danaerys's husband and baby died sweetly. Jaime's dying in
>> installments.
>
>Ah, pervy Craster, a worth addition indeed.
All In The Family, North of the Wall edition. And he's Archie Bunker.
There's a mental image you can take to the bank. In fact that was the
way I always pictured Craster anyway.
>> Can't think of more off the top of my head.
>
>Another one came to me while thinking about it. Amory Lorch, fed to
>the bear.
Oh yeah, but wasn't he one of the Bloody Mummers?
>What about all those on Arya's list, several of them bought
>it, right? All the Brave Companions are accounted for and dead, I
>think...
Yeah. The Tickler and Raff the Sweetling and so on. Awesome.
>Brom I think is safe, Martin has definitely shown some affinity for
>him. I think all the Kettleblacks are going to buy it one by one,
>though. Martin does not seem to reward the stupid for very long.
*grin*
And if he does (Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) it is only to make them pay
more dearly at the end.
I hope Sansa also pays dearly one day. Losing her direwolf was the
least she deserved.
>Had a couple more suggestions for those who still need to buy it.
>Qyburn definitely.
Ooh, yeah. But we need to see more of his experiments first. Maybe he
can get torn apart by them, or some other hideously poetic method of
death.
>Alister Thorne and Janos Slynt?
Yeah, although I tend to think of them more as school-bully-type
annoyances rather than real villains. They're just morons and the
Others will do for them.
>What about Robert
>Arryn? I know he's a kid and all, but I hate him.
Given that he's standing between Littlefinger and the Vale, I'm sure
he'll only live as long as necessary. At the moment the Vale Lords
would kill Littlefinger if anything happened to the "rightful Lord".
But that could change.
What I see happening is, Little Lord Robert dies one night in his bed,
and Littlefinger had absolutely nothing to do with it, he just had a
seizure and died and Littlefinger goes "oh crap, now what do I do?"
And then begins some charade to pretend he's still alive. Possibly
making Sansa dress up as him I don't know, I'm still working out the
kinks on that plan. But it would be a fun way to show that smarmy-arse
Littlefinger can't plan for everything. He needs the boy alive, what
happens if he just accidentally dies?
>Can't believe I forgot Theon Greyjoy and the whole damn pack of Iron
>Islander douchebags. Oh, and Roose Bolton's bastard, ummmm Ramsay
>Snow!
Yeah, all of them at once. I want to see more bits getting flayed from
Theon. He was a complete twat.
>What about Mace Tyrell?
The Tyrells are funny. The Queen of Thorns is one of my favourite
characters. It'll be interesting to see if Loras is dead or not, or
even disfigured.
>Something about him I dislike very much. And
>that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
>punched in the face.
Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
satisfying.
C&J
Ben
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:50:37 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
When does a threaded post become too long to be practical? This one is
getting loooong, but as long as at least two people are reading it,
it's a discussion, right?
>
> >Agreed, and it never appears in the book that anybody is really loyal
> >to Viserys, other than Dany herself, despite the nipple-twisting.
>
> And that's more fear than loyalty, which is probably all Aerys and
> Viserys could have expected out of their reigns.
>
I think that though Dany definitely did fear Viserys, reading it again
(as I did for the CHOW) makes it seem like she really believed in him,
at least there at the beginning. She was prepared to let herself be
sold off and seemed to believe it was acceptable, not because she was
terrified, but because she thought it was her duty. Then again, her
other option would be Viserys as a husband, so perhaps it was just a
matter of the lesser of two evils.
>
> Yeah, I meant Varys. Crap, I went back over that and changed several
> "Viserys"s to "Varys"s, and still managed to miss one.
>
Can't say anything, this header is still Catelyn and has been a
Daenerys CHOW, at least yours sounded alike!
> >Varys doesn't seem to know the
> >future, but he has a damn good record of preparing for eventualities
> >before they happen.
>
> Yep. Of course, not much point preparing for them after they happen.
> Unless of course he's living backwards through time. That would just
> be weird but would also explain a lot about Varys.
>
Makes me think of Rachel Weintraub from Dan Simmons' Hyperion. Varys,
however, is just a guy who has prepared for anything possible, then
uses his considerable global resources to maximize the chances that
what he wants to happen is what happens.
>
> Do you think that whole thing he confided in Tyrion was for real, or
> was his chumminess with Tyrion just another lie? Not even Tyrion
> seemed sure, but if he was for real, then it was the closest we've
> ever been to the real Varys.
>
Great question. It sure sounded like the truth, where most of what
Varys says sounds like dodgy BS that even he doesn't believe. That
sounded very heartfelt. Seems like a lot of people play it straight
with Tyrion, maybe because they underestimate him, though Varys
doesn't underestimate anyone, so far as we've seen.
>
> But it would take a lot to prepare for the eventuality that Viserys
> would die, Drogo would die, Danaerys would have a demon miscarriage
> and walk into her husband's funeral pyre with the witch who killed him
> and an armful of dragon eggs and come out with a khalasar rather than
> dead. Where were the grand plans when Drogo's bloodriders wanted to
> cut and run? And, indeed, mostly did?
>
> Maybe that was all planned too, because frankly she was better off
> without them.
>
This is another one that almost couldn't have been planned, of course,
but I think the plan called for Drogo's hordes and the Targaryens
(Viserys or Dany, as you prefer) to get together and kick some ass in
Westeros. What Dany is doing now is I think way above and beyond the
plan, though the dragons seem to be part of the plan. My guess is that
Dany is ahead of schedule now, and with considerably more muscle than
the conspirators planned on. Whether or not they took the Others into
account seems unlikely.
>
> Yeah, there was a cockatrice or a mandrake or ... crap, some sort of
> really poisonous acidic thing like a scorpion that the assassin
> pretended was a jewelled scarab beetle or something. And then they
> towed him behind the khalasar until there was nothing left of him.
>
Yeah, and it had some grace to it as well, the poison trap, which
indicated an assassin with some skill. Then didn't somebody give the
Faceless Man code words to her also? Though I would think it unlikely
the Faceless Men would actually use a token phrase unless they had
actually succeeded, would lessen the mystique.
>
> She did seem very close to losing the plot and killing everyone. Which
> is funny when you consider that Varys didn't even disappear like this
> for Aerys. But now Cersei has him on the run.
>
> Or, at least, that's sort of what it looks like. I'm sure he just, you
> know, decided to run anyway because his plans were all coming to
> fruition and he wanted a nice brisk run.
>
It may just be me, but I think that Varys did not take Cersei's crazy
into account, and so he has had to go into contingency mode to save
his own ass. Who could plan what Cersei does? I don't think even she
knows what she is going to do next!
>
> > Jorah came off pretty poorly in our last
> >sighting of him.
>
> Didn't she send them off (him and Barristan Selmy) into a sewer to
> infiltrate an enemy city? Or did she send him away after that?
>
I think that was after she found out about him being a spy. The
thought was something like "well if he dies, oh well."
> I don't know if that was a good move, because he may well have been
> loyal after that. Mind you, he had those purse strings...
>
I am not sure that Jorah isn't still loyal, though clearly he is in
love and spurned, which is usually a lead-in to disastrous betrayal in
aSoIaF.
> >There's someone I am hoping for a redemption arc for.
> >But then again he didn't throw a kid out a window while giving it to
> >his sister... Maybe because the Mormount sister was a bit of a troll?
>
> He couldn't afford his sister.
>
Seem to remember her being a bit of a bad-ass herself, one of Robb's
loyal supporters (still even now I believe?)
>
> >I think
> >Peter Dinklage slapping a kid around would be HI-larious.
>
> Agreed. I can see it becoming a YouTube meme very easily. Man, the
> screen caps. *daydreams*
>
Big fan of Dinklage, whose sarcastic wit is the best casting I have
yet seen (then again other than Boromir, I don't recognize most of the
rest of the cast). His interaction with everyone should be the
highlights of the series.
> >Curious if
> >they can find a kid who can be enough of a bastard to pull off
> >Joffrey...
>
> If they'd gotten their act together a bit more quickly, the kid who
> plays Draco Malfoy could have been a good Joffrey. As it is, he might
> just make Jaime. Unless they can find someone better.
>
Good suggestion, white blonde as opposed to golden blonde, but he
would be too expensive now I think. I think he's going through a
redemption arc of his own in the Potter books, which should make him
not perfect for the role of pure prick considering the Malfoy role is
so closely identified with him now. As long as they stay clear of any
of the never-ending series of Culkin brothers.
<snip Tywin Lannister stuff>
>
> Hmm. I suppose when he decided to be nothing like his father, and
> became the cold-as-ice motherfucker we know and love, he did achieve a
> certain amount of power and influence and the ability to scare the
> shit out of people. And all the Lannisters are family-oriented. At
> least until the later generation, which is all about shagging and
> killing each other. Like any normal family.
>
Coming from someone with a very high degree of dysfunctional family,
the Lannisters are a whole new world. However (I know this discussion
has gone on in this forum before), it does seem that incest has
varying degrees of taboo to different folks. And other than that (and
the killing each other bit), I've attended a Lannister holidy party or
two. But poor and average looking...
>
> >Ah, pervy Craster, a worth addition indeed.
>
> All In The Family, North of the Wall edition. And he's Archie Bunker.
>
> There's a mental image you can take to the bank. In fact that was the
> way I always pictured Craster anyway.
>
I see Craster more like Aqualung, old decrepit filthy. Archie Bunker
is prototype fat white racist, but I could see that visual...
>
> >Another one came to me while thinking about it. Amory Lorch, fed to
> >the bear.
>
> Oh yeah, but wasn't he one of the Bloody Mummers?
>
Wasn't he some sort of small-scale lordling, sponsored the Mummers or
housed them or something like that?
>
> >Brom I think is safe, Martin has definitely shown some affinity for
> >him. I think all the Kettleblacks are going to buy it one by one,
> >though. Martin does not seem to reward the stupid for very long.
>
> *grin*
>
> And if he does (Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) it is only to make them pay
> more dearly at the end.
>
I think (and definitely hope) that Cersei's end will be even slower
and more painful than Joffrey's. Maybe some nice torture and rape
first?
> I hope Sansa also pays dearly one day. Losing her direwolf was the
> least she deserved.
>
She needs a much stronger redemption arc. I think Littlefinger will
arrange the pain, though...
> >Had a couple more suggestions for those who still need to buy it.
> >Qyburn definitely.
>
> Ooh, yeah. But we need to see more of his experiments first. Maybe he
> can get torn apart by them, or some other hideously poetic method of
> death.
>
This one might be very painful also, or should be.
> >Alister Thorne and Janos Slynt?
>
> Yeah, although I tend to think of them more as school-bully-type
> annoyances rather than real villains. They're just morons and the
> Others will do for them.
>
We can hope, most of the ones that bought it from the Others so far
were pretty good folks (with a few exceptions). Looking forward to
Stannis and his folks vs. the Others, though. Most of them won't be
missed. Plus I think that Stannis needs to die to clear any succession
problems, though who is more rightful, one of Robert's bastards or
Rhaegar's (assuming this is John Snow's real father). Though safe to
assume that Gendry (Robert's senior bastard) would be trumped by
Daenerys, even without John as a husband, again assuming that is where
we are going.
<second part to follow>
Ben
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:50:37 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >What about Robert
> >Arryn? I know he's a kid and all, but I hate him.
>
> Given that he's standing between Littlefinger and the Vale, I'm sure
> he'll only live as long as necessary. At the moment the Vale Lords
> would kill Littlefinger if anything happened to the "rightful Lord".
> But that could change.
>
your point.
> What I see happening is, Little Lord Robert dies one night in his bed,
> and Littlefinger had absolutely nothing to do with it, he just had a
> seizure and died and Littlefinger goes "oh crap, now what do I do?"
>
Yes, very Martin, and it sure doesn't appear that Robert has any more
purpose in the story other than to create this controversy, so it
would seem to be inevitable.
> And then begins some charade to pretend he's still alive. Possibly
> making Sansa dress up as him I don't know, I'm still working out the
> kinks on that plan. But it would be a fun way to show that smarmy-arse
> Littlefinger can't plan for everything. He needs the boy alive, what
> happens if he just accidentally dies?
>
So far Littlefinger has managed to work around all the curve balls he
has been thrown. Unlike Varys he clearly does not know everything, but
rolls with the punches like a champ. Curious how this will go, though.
> >Can't believe I forgot Theon Greyjoy and the whole damn pack of Iron
> >Islander douchebags. Oh, and Roose Bolton's bastard, ummmm Ramsay
> >Snow!
>
> Yeah, all of them at once. I want to see more bits getting flayed from
> Theon. He was a complete twat.
>
Promising start to that with the previews.
> >What about Mace Tyrell?
>
> The Tyrells are funny. The Queen of Thorns is one of my favourite
> characters. It'll be interesting to see if Loras is dead or not, or
> even disfigured.
>
Gramma Tyrell is a terrific character, still the one I think was
responsible for Joffrey buying it. Mace is a horse's ass, though.
Loras is certainly alive and almost certainly humbled. A behind the
scenes death just isn't going to happen for this character.
> >Something about him I dislike very much. And
> >that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
> >punched in the face.
>
> Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
> satisfying.
>
Absolutely. My guess is that we see this guy again, preferably in a
Braavosi slave market or something satisfying like that.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> When does a threaded post become too long to be practical? This one is
> getting loooong, but as long as at least two people are reading it,
> it's a discussion, right?
I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this, thinking back to some
of the thousand-post, thousand-line threads I've helped create over
the years. To me, there is no limit.
Eventually, a post reaches a sort of equilibrium. I don't answer
everything, although it has happened (rarely) that I cut something the
other poster wants me to address and I have to go back for it. Far
more frequently, it is the other poster cutting stuff I want them to
address, but I accept that not everyone has my attention-span for long
discussions and typing for minutes and minutes at a time.
So yeah, a post gets bigger but then as parts of it get pruned away it
gets smaller. I've never found one to become "impractical", although
Google certainly has trouble with threads when they get too big.
I just go with it.
> I think that though Dany definitely did fear Viserys, reading it again
> (as I did for the CHOW) makes it seem like she really believed in him,
> at least there at the beginning. She was prepared to let herself be
> sold off and seemed to believe it was acceptable, not because she was
> terrified, but because she thought it was her duty. Then again, her
> other option would be Viserys as a husband, so perhaps it was just a
> matter of the lesser of two evils.
Hmm. Well, I guess she did have a sense of duty. But then I also
remember her thinking that marriage between siblings was normal (as
indeed it was for the Targaryens), and that Viserys should have been a
girl. That way, she reflects, Rhaegar would have been able to marry
him (her), and wouldn't have had to marry Ashara Dayne or be seduced
by "the wolf girl" in whatever way that happened.
So she wouldn't have thought of marrying Drogo as a better alternative
to marrying a brother, necessarily. But she did go along with Viserys
out of as much loyalty and faith in the Targaryen destiny than she did
out of fear, I'll grant that.
> > Do you think that whole thing he confided in Tyrion was for real, or
> > was his chumminess with Tyrion just another lie? Not even Tyrion
> > seemed sure, but if he was for real, then it was the closest we've
> > ever been to the real Varys.
>
> Great question. It sure sounded like the truth, where most of what
> Varys says sounds like dodgy BS that even he doesn't believe.
Yep, and the situation was such that he did seem to be confiding. I
mean, I can't see that it would benefit him in any way, the way a lot
of his other prattling does. When he deals with idiots, he can titter
into his scented handkerchiefs all he likes, but he recognised Tyrion
as a smart guy.
I wonder, furthermore, how much of his plans for re-establishing the
Targaryens "the right way" fitted in with what happened to Tyrion.
Maybe Varys saw Tyrion as a good asset while he was Hand, but couldn't
see any way for any of the Lannisters to survive Danaerys's return.
Except now, Tyrion is out of the Lannister family and might just be of
benefit to Danaerys after all. And he loves dragons.
This takes us into slippery territory, of course, where Varys
masterminded the beginning, middle and end of Tyrion's downfall right
down to the sordid little details of Shae turning up in Tywin's
bedchamber. I don't believe that for a moment, but like you said:
Varys is a guy who can see what he wants, and then make sure it
happens. He undoubtedly knew that once Tyrion was blamed for killing
Joffrey and Cersei was convinced (and how couldn't she be, with the
valonqar prophecy eating a hole in her already quite drafty mind?),
the resulting court case would be a miscarriage of justice worthy of
Melisandre and her shadow-assassin-placenta-monster of doom.
> That sounded very heartfelt. Seems like a lot of people play
> it straight with Tyrion, maybe because they underestimate him,
> though Varys doesn't underestimate anyone, so far as we've seen.
Just so. Tyrion, funnily enough, seems to be capable of the most
insightful and intelligent conversations with everyone you'd least
expect - Varys, Jon, Sansa - and yet completely fails to ever have a
rational conversation with a member of his own family.
There's an interesting dichotomy. Intentional?
> This is another one that almost couldn't have been planned, of course,
> but I think the plan called for Drogo's hordes and the Targaryens
> (Viserys or Dany, as you prefer) to get together and kick some ass in
> Westeros.
Most definitely.
> What Dany is doing now is I think way above and beyond the
> plan, though the dragons seem to be part of the plan.
Oh yeah. Their delivery to her hands does seem to be something more
than an accident. I mean, it stretches the old willing suspension of
ddisbelief to think it's all random chance.
> My guess is that
> Dany is ahead of schedule now, and with considerably more muscle than
> the conspirators planned on. Whether or not they took the Others into
> account seems unlikely.
I would tend to doubt it, if only because this way it leaves them with
a magnificent grasp on politics but falling short of the divine
omniscience required to predict everything.
Certainly, Danaerys's trials and tribulations seem to have put her in
a much better position than she would have been under the original
plan. I mean, under the original plan I just don't think Viserys would
have been able to lead the khalasar, even if Drogo hadn't died. They
would have been uneasy comrades at best, and the dragons may never
have been hatched.
Unless of course Viserys was holding the eggs when Drogo crowned him
with molten gold somewhere in Westeros, and they hatched then. And
that would still be a far from optimal situation. As it is, Danaerys
seems to have been the beneficiary of almost divine providence. In
fact, scrap the "almost".
Maybe Varys et al knew Drogo would kill Viserys as soon as he and
Danaerys were married, if not before. I mean, look at the way business
is conducted in Southeros.
> > Yeah, there was a cockatrice or a mandrake or ... crap, some sort of
> > really poisonous acidic thing like a scorpion that the assassin
> > pretended was a jewelled scarab beetle or something. And then they
> > towed him behind the khalasar until there was nothing left of him.
>
> Yeah, and it had some grace to it as well, the poison trap, which
> indicated an assassin with some skill. Then didn't somebody give the
> Faceless Man code words to her also? Though I would think it unlikely
> the Faceless Men would actually use a token phrase unless they had
> actually succeeded, would lessen the mystique.
I don't remember that. I'm getting it mixed up with Arya and the other
incidents in Oldtown, but did Danaerys get some hints as well?
> It may just be me, but I think that Varys did not take Cersei's crazy
> into account, and so he has had to go into contingency mode to save
> his own ass. Who could plan what Cersei does? I don't think even she
> knows what she is going to do next!
You make a good point. Like Littlefinger, it seems as though Varys is
backing off and just waiting to see what Cersei burns down next. And
they're both cunning tacticians, so I suppose that makes sense.
> > >There's someone I am hoping for a redemption arc for.
> > >But then again he didn't throw a kid out a window while giving it to
> > >his sister... Maybe because the Mormount sister was a bit of a troll?
>
> > He couldn't afford his sister.
>
> Seem to remember her being a bit of a bad-ass herself, one of Robb's
> loyal supporters (still even now I believe?)
Ah, Dacey Mormont. Wasn't she killed at the Red Wedding? Or just
wounded and captured? Yeah, she had a morningstar or something badass
like that. Nobody gave her the sort of shit that Brienne seemed to be
a magnet for.
> > Hmm. I suppose when he decided to be nothing like his father, and
> > became the cold-as-ice motherfucker we know and love, he did achieve a
> > certain amount of power and influence and the ability to scare the
> > shit out of people. And all the Lannisters are family-oriented. At
> > least until the later generation, which is all about shagging and
> > killing each other. Like any normal family.
>
> Coming from someone with a very high degree of dysfunctional family,
> the Lannisters are a whole new world.
Heh, tell me about it.
I mean, the Lannisters. Not your family. You can tell me about them
later.
> However (I know this discussion
> has gone on in this forum before), it does seem that incest has
> varying degrees of taboo to different folks.
You mean in-series or out? I assume the latter. But I guess it's true
of both.
> And other than that (and
> the killing each other bit), I've attended a Lannister holidy party or
> two. But poor and average looking...
Bahahahaha! Class.
> > >Another one came to me while thinking about it. Amory Lorch, fed to
> > >the bear.
>
> > Oh yeah, but wasn't he one of the Bloody Mummers?
>
> Wasn't he some sort of small-scale lordling, sponsored the Mummers or
> housed them or something like that?
Could well be. I always equated them for some reason. Something to do
with the goat icon.
> > And if he does (Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) it is only to make them pay
> > more dearly at the end.
>
> I think (and definitely hope) that Cersei's end will be even slower
> and more painful than Joffrey's. Maybe some nice torture and rape
> first?
Cersei would be a difficult woman to rape, I think. She always seems
to get there first. If somebody could be of potential use to her (and
I imagine that for somebody to rape Cersei, he would be in a position
of power over her current circumstances, rather than just somebody who
... eh, cold-cocks her in an alley one night), she fucks him before it
even gets to be an issue.
But certainly she needs to have a lot more shit happen to her before
she dies. Possibly involving Qyburn and his creations.
> > I hope Sansa also pays dearly one day. Losing her direwolf was the
> > least she deserved.
>
> She needs a much stronger redemption arc. I think Littlefinger will
> arrange the pain, though...
Sure, she's starting slow and working up to a spectacular becoming. Or
something like that.
> Looking forward to Stannis and his folks vs. the Others, though.
> Most of them won't be missed.
Yeah.
> Plus I think that Stannis needs to die to clear any succession
> problems, though who is more rightful, one of Robert's bastards or
> Rhaegar's (assuming this is John Snow's real father).
Stannis is just too inflexible, to the point of nuttery. He wouldn't
make it as king. And I think as soon as Renly stepped up with his
Wookiee defence (if I recall it correctly it was, "I'm handsome and
people like me, so that means I'm legitimate king ... look at the
silly little monkey"), the whole issue oof who was the more rightful
king became a joke.
Melisandre's search for royal blood, too. That was a joke even before
she tried to kill Mance Rayder's baby.
> Though safe to
> assume that Gendry (Robert's senior bastard) would be trumped by
> Daenerys, even without John as a husband, again assuming that is where
> we are going.
I don't like where we are going.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> > What I see happening is, Little Lord Robert dies one night in his bed,
> > and Littlefinger had absolutely nothing to do with it, he just had a
> > seizure and died and Littlefinger goes "oh crap, now what do I do?"
>
> Yes, very Martin, and it sure doesn't appear that Robert has any more
> purpose in the story other than to create this controversy, so it
> would seem to be inevitable.
As Brick Top once said, "you're not much good to me alive, are you?" I
do wonder what his purpose would be, or his place in the story should
he survive.
Of course, as a deathly-ill weakling nutbag with no parents and
surrounded by a lot of people who hate him, he seems to be the least
likely survivor and therefore, by Martin-logic, the most likely.
But yeah, I think the plot would become much more interesting with him
dead. His scenes with Sansa, his increasingly nutty demands that
people get thrown out of his windows, and his seizures have really
expended their entertainment value unless they all move to the next
level.
Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
direction for her.
> > And then begins some charade to pretend he's still alive. Possibly
> > making Sansa dress up as him I don't know, I'm still working out the
> > kinks on that plan. But it would be a fun way to show that smarmy-arse
> > Littlefinger can't plan for everything. He needs the boy alive, what
> > happens if he just accidentally dies?
>
> So far Littlefinger has managed to work around all the curve balls he
> has been thrown. Unlike Varys he clearly does not know everything, but
> rolls with the punches like a champ. Curious how this will go, though.
Yeah, sooner or later he'll just have too many watermelons in the air
and they'll all come raining down and I want to be there with a smile
on my face when it happens.
> > >Can't believe I forgot Theon Greyjoy and the whole damn pack of Iron
> > >Islander douchebags. Oh, and Roose Bolton's bastard, ummmm Ramsay
> > >Snow!
>
> > Yeah, all of them at once. I want to see more bits getting flayed from
> > Theon. He was a complete twat.
>
> Promising start to that with the previews.
Oh yeah, so there was. I'd forgotten about that, it had been so long.
> > >What about Mace Tyrell?
>
> > The Tyrells are funny. The Queen of Thorns is one of my favourite
> > characters. It'll be interesting to see if Loras is dead or not, or
> > even disfigured.
>
> Gramma Tyrell is a terrific character, still the one I think was
> responsible for Joffrey buying it. Mace is a horse's ass, though.
I can't remember seeing much of him, but I guess judging by the rest
of his family he'd want to be.
> Loras is certainly alive and almost certainly humbled. A behind the
> scenes death just isn't going to happen for this character.
I'd like to hope most of the greats will get their on-screen deaths.
It's no more than they deserve.
> > >Something about him I dislike very much. And
> > >that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
> > >punched in the face.
>
> > Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
> > satisfying.
>
> Absolutely. My guess is that we see this guy again, preferably in a
> Braavosi slave market or something satisfying like that.
Bahahahaha! "He's very stringy."
C&J
chro...@gmail.com
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:54:32 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > What I see happening is, Little Lord Robert dies one night in his bed,
> > > and Littlefinger had absolutely nothing to do with it, he just had a
> > > seizure and died and Littlefinger goes "oh crap, now what do I do?"
>
> > Yes, very Martin, and it sure doesn't appear that Robert has any more
> > purpose in the story other than to create this controversy, so it
> > would seem to be inevitable.
>
> As Brick Top once said, "you're not much good to me alive, are you?" I
> do wonder what his purpose would be, or his place in the story should
> he survive.
>
> Of course, as a deathly-ill weakling nutbag with no parents and
> surrounded by a lot of people who hate him, he seems to be the least
> likely survivor and therefore, by Martin-logic, the most likely.
>
> But yeah, I think the plot would become much more interesting with him
> dead. His scenes with Sansa, his increasingly nutty demands that
> people get thrown out of his windows, and his seizures have really
> expended their entertainment value unless they all move to the next
> level.
>
> Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
> if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
> direction for her.
Li'l Lord Robert seems to me to be a literary device by which Sansa
learns to be manipulative. He's not a character in his own right,
just used for illustration. Sooner we're rid of him, the better off
we are, in my opinion.
>
[snip Littlefinger 'cause I just don't know about him]
>
> > > >Can't believe I forgot Theon Greyjoy and the whole damn pack of Iron
> > > >Islander douchebags. Oh, and Roose Bolton's bastard, ummmm Ramsay
> > > >Snow!
>
> > > Yeah, all of them at once. I want to see more bits getting flayed from
> > > Theon. He was a complete twat.
>
> > Promising start to that with the previews.
>
> Oh yeah, so there was. I'd forgotten about that, it had been so long.
How much you want to bet Theon survives, but nobody, including him,
knows it's Theon? I think he's utterly destroyed mentally, and nobody
but nobody gives a damn either way.
Except then why would he get a POV chapter? That's my only problem
with the idea.
>
[snp Tyrells]
>
> > > >Something about him I dislike very much. And
> > > >that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
> > > >punched in the face.
>
> > > Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
> > > satisfying.
>
> > Absolutely. My guess is that we see this guy again, preferably in a
> > Braavosi slave market or something satisfying like that.
>
> Bahahahaha! "He's very stringy."
>
Didn't Arya kill him? The night before she 'went blind'? Speaking of
whom, didn't Ned once say something about a wolf alone dies, while the
pack survives? Who is our favorite lone wolf? Which audience is in
for another death of one of its favorite characters?
Questions to ponder...
Ben
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > When does a threaded post become too long to be practical? This one is
> > getting loooong, but as long as at least two people are reading it,
> > it's a discussion, right?
>
> I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this, thinking back to some
> of the thousand-post, thousand-line threads I've helped create over
> the years. To me, there is no limit.
>
time trying to get over writer's block. This dialogue has been quite
useful in that pursuit.
> Eventually, a post reaches a sort of equilibrium. I don't answer
> everything, although it has happened (rarely) that I cut something the
> other poster wants me to address and I have to go back for it. Far
> more frequently, it is the other poster cutting stuff I want them to
> address, but I accept that not everyone has my attention-span for long
> discussions and typing for minutes and minutes at a time.
>
Well then you've found the right victim in me. None of my friends are
literate enough to understand or talk about aSoIaF, and would be quite
mystified by a discussion of literature of any kind. So unlikely that
you'll find me unwilling (though perhaps unable) to comment or address
points brought up.
> So yeah, a post gets bigger but then as parts of it get pruned away it
> gets smaller. I've never found one to become "impractical", although
> Google certainly has trouble with threads when they get too big.
>
> I just go with it.
>
Sounds good, I will follow that sound policy.
>
> Hmm. Well, I guess she did have a sense of duty. But then I also
> remember her thinking that marriage between siblings was normal (as
> indeed it was for the Targaryens), and that Viserys should have been a
> girl. That way, she reflects, Rhaegar would have been able to marry
> him (her), and wouldn't have had to marry Ashara Dayne or be seduced
> by "the wolf girl" in whatever way that happened.
>
Flashing me back. Dany and a few others do have memories of Rhaegar's
encounter with Lyanna (which I think most likely led to Jon Snow),
which would provide another option (other than the Crab-Man, who
apparently is the only one to know Jon's real story who is still
alive).
What you made me think of when I read this was Viserys as Rhaegar's
"girlfriend" ala prison girlfriend, which would have been quite
appropriate, though if he were a girl he probably would not have been
so much of a cunt (ironically).
> So she wouldn't have thought of marrying Drogo as a better alternative
> to marrying a brother, necessarily. But she did go along with Viserys
> out of as much loyalty and faith in the Targaryen destiny than she did
> out of fear, I'll grant that.
>
Sure, and I wasn't referring to her distaste for sybling marriage, as
it was clear she did not feel that way. But choosing between a giant
savage she doesn't know and Viserys, her choice was very clear.
>
> > Great question. It sure sounded like the truth, where most of what
> > Varys says sounds like dodgy BS that even he doesn't believe.
>
> Yep, and the situation was such that he did seem to be confiding. I
> mean, I can't see that it would benefit him in any way, the way a lot
> of his other prattling does. When he deals with idiots, he can titter
> into his scented handkerchiefs all he likes, but he recognised Tyrion
> as a smart guy.
>
And perhaps as someone who could understand the depth of his work?
Tyrion has long been a behind the scenes guy himself, notably
vulnerable to the one thing that Varys could not possibly be (lacking
the equipment), but otherwise Tyrion is someone that could appreciate
some of the machinations Varys has put in play.
> I wonder, furthermore, how much of his plans for re-establishing the
> Targaryens "the right way" fitted in with what happened to Tyrion.
> Maybe Varys saw Tyrion as a good asset while he was Hand, but couldn't
> see any way for any of the Lannisters to survive Danaerys's return.
> Except now, Tyrion is out of the Lannister family and might just be of
> benefit to Danaerys after all. And he loves dragons.
>
I like this theory very much, removing Tyrion from play to save him.
And this could very well, once all is burnt and rebuilt, be a way for
the Lannister house to find its way back into the good graces of the
Targaryens, which would be a very good thing for both parties.
> This takes us into slippery territory, of course, where Varys
> masterminded the beginning, middle and end of Tyrion's downfall right
> down to the sordid little details of Shae turning up in Tywin's
> bedchamber. I don't believe that for a moment, but like you said:
> Varys is a guy who can see what he wants, and then make sure it
> happens. He undoubtedly knew that once Tyrion was blamed for killing
> Joffrey and Cersei was convinced (and how couldn't she be, with the
> valonqar prophecy eating a hole in her already quite drafty mind?),
> the resulting court case would be a miscarriage of justice worthy of
> Melisandre and her shadow-assassin-placenta-monster of doom.
>
I think this might not be so farfetched. Who knew the secret passages
in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys. Even if he
did not organize the frame, he certainly took part in it and
understood its value. And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
>
> Just so. Tyrion, funnily enough, seems to be capable of the most
> insightful and intelligent conversations with everyone you'd least
> expect - Varys, Jon, Sansa - and yet completely fails to ever have a
> rational conversation with a member of his own family.
>
> There's an interesting dichotomy. Intentional?
>
I can relate, though as said previously I find the necessary
ingredients for a rational conversation (two rational people at least)
increasingly difficult to procure. Tyrion does seem to have the
ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen. It seems hard to believe that
a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
money in the first place...
>
> > What Dany is doing now is I think way above and beyond the
> > plan, though the dragons seem to be part of the plan.
>
> Oh yeah. Their delivery to her hands does seem to be something more
> than an accident. I mean, it stretches the old willing suspension of
> ddisbelief to think it's all random chance.
>
No, that one is certainly orchestrated, though whether anybody thought
she could bring them to live seems dubious. Seems more like it would
be immensely valuable and moreso in the hands of a Targaryen (and
therefore presumably legitimate), something she (or Viserys as you
prefer) could use to make deals.
> > My guess is that
> > Dany is ahead of schedule now, and with considerably more muscle than
> > the conspirators planned on. Whether or not they took the Others into
> > account seems unlikely.
>
> I would tend to doubt it, if only because this way it leaves them with
> a magnificent grasp on politics but falling short of the divine
> omniscience required to predict everything.
>
Agreed. I am very curious whether Dany will (in the seventh book or
whenever she finally makes it back over to Westeros) have to fight her
way through Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell/Iron Islanders etc. or if it
will be more prudent to have her head straight north. I suspect from
the Eunuch army (who wouldn't be terribly effective against the
Others) that she will have to take on all comers before she can move,
battered and bruised, to the Wall and against the Others to save the
day. Curious during all that time what Jon Snow and Stannis will be
doing, as I can't see them lasting too long against a concerted
attack, particularly if somebody finds the Horn and knocks down the
Wall (which seems rather likely at some point).
> Certainly, Danaerys's trials and tribulations seem to have put her in
> a much better position than she would have been under the original
> plan. I mean, under the original plan I just don't think Viserys would
> have been able to lead the khalasar, even if Drogo hadn't died. They
> would have been uneasy comrades at best, and the dragons may never
> have been hatched.
>
Viserys would have been just as unsuitable as Dany was, but they would
have murdered him for the attempt. Considering the birthing method,
unlikely Viserys COULD have birthed the dragons, and impossible that
he WOULD have.
> Unless of course Viserys was holding the eggs when Drogo crowned him
> with molten gold somewhere in Westeros, and they hatched then. And
> that would still be a far from optimal situation. As it is, Danaerys
> seems to have been the beneficiary of almost divine providence. In
> fact, scrap the "almost".
>
> Maybe Varys et al knew Drogo would kill Viserys as soon as he and
> Danaerys were married, if not before. I mean, look at the way business
> is conducted in Southeros.
>
A fair bet, though either way Varys/Illyrio get what they wanted, a
massive army influenced by the Targaryens. Though how they could have
predicted Dany and/or Viserys persuading Drogo to do anything was
surely the biggest uncertainty in the plan, presumably of course.
>
> > Yeah, and it had some grace to it as well, the poison trap, which
> > indicated an assassin with some skill. Then didn't somebody give the
> > Faceless Man code words to her also? Though I would think it unlikely
> > the Faceless Men would actually use a token phrase unless they had
> > actually succeeded, would lessen the mystique.
>
> I don't remember that. I'm getting it mixed up with Arya and the other
> incidents in Oldtown, but did Danaerys get some hints as well?
>
Could just as easily be my mistake, but I seem to remember Belwas and
Ser Barristan saving her from a Faceless Man. I could also be mixing
this up with Arya, though.
> > It may just be me, but I think that Varys did not take Cersei's crazy
> > into account, and so he has had to go into contingency mode to save
> > his own ass. Who could plan what Cersei does? I don't think even she
> > knows what she is going to do next!
>
> You make a good point. Like Littlefinger, it seems as though Varys is
> backing off and just waiting to see what Cersei burns down next. And
> they're both cunning tacticians, so I suppose that makes sense.
>
Cersei you don't plan for. You wait for her to fuck up, then take
advantage of it. You know its going to happen, just don't know how or
when. Interesting point, though, as Varys appears to still be pulling
a lot of strings locally, while Littlefinger seems to have taken the
better part of valor and reset himself. Unless Littlefinger has some
irons still in the fire in King's Landing (likely). I do think it
shows Varys is the better of the two as far as manipulation goes,
mostly because he seems to seek little or nothing for himself. Besides
he isn't a pervy molester, but let's not open that Pandora's Box.
> Ah, Dacey Mormont. Wasn't she killed at the Red Wedding? Or just
> wounded and captured? Yeah, she had a morningstar or something badass
> like that. Nobody gave her the sort of shit that Brienne seemed to be
> a magnet for.
>
I thought she was one of the few (along with one of the Umbers) that
was still a genuine Stark supporter and still out there, though hiding
away on Bear Island. Then again it might be her daughter? I think
maybe she was one of those captured but not killed, come to think of
it, but I do think that one of the Mormonts is still actively holding
Bear Island, and some Umber uncle is holding their castle (wherever
the hell that is). Other than that it's just the Bog-dudes who are
still loyal to whatever is left of Stark-ville.
>
> > Coming from someone with a very high degree of dysfunctional family,
> > the Lannisters are a whole new world.
>
> Heh, tell me about it.
>
> I mean, the Lannisters. Not your family. You can tell me about them
> later.
>
This post has gotten long enough. Save that for my psychiatrist (as
soon as I can afford one!)
> > However (I know this discussion
> > has gone on in this forum before), it does seem that incest has
> > varying degrees of taboo to different folks.
>
> You mean in-series or out? I assume the latter. But I guess it's true
> of both.
>
In-series absolutely. More than just the Targaryens don't seem to find
it absolutely taboo, though no others seem to openly condone it. In
Jaime-Cersei, it seems less to be a problem with sybling love than it
does with the legitimacy of her kids, which is what the whole
Baratheon claim hinges on.
>
> Cersei would be a difficult woman to rape, I think. She always seems
> to get there first. If somebody could be of potential use to her (and
> I imagine that for somebody to rape Cersei, he would be in a position
> of power over her current circumstances, rather than just somebody who
> ... eh, cold-cocks her in an alley one night), she fucks him before it
> even gets to be an issue.
>
Good point, physical rape she would definitely use to her advantage.
What would the equivalent be in Cersei land? Maybe taking away her
looks? A nice scar or mastectomy? Or sew her greatest weapon shut?
> But certainly she needs to have a lot more shit happen to her before
> she dies. Possibly involving Qyburn and his creations.
>
Rape by FrankenGregor? She might even like that!
>
> Stannis is just too inflexible, to the point of nuttery. He wouldn't
> make it as king. And I think as soon as Renly stepped up with his
> Wookiee defence (if I recall it correctly it was, "I'm handsome and
> people like me, so that means I'm legitimate king ... look at the
> silly little monkey"), the whole issue oof who was the more rightful
> king became a joke.
>
Yeah, but it allowed for the support of similarly inflexible people
like the dead Starks, though not coincidentally nearly all of those
inflexible people are now mortally inflexible, quite rigid if you
will. You are right, though, as Renly clearly never had any
justifiable claim but had the most support and would almost certainly
have been able to sweep in (like a ballet dancer) and seize it from
the Lannisters to great crowd acclaim, if not for Melisandre's womb-
demon.
> Melisandre's search for royal blood, too. That was a joke even before
> she tried to kill Mance Rayder's baby.
>
I think her nuttery is a pivotal thing for the series, and she clearly
can use royal blood to make things happen. Never understood the
Mance's baby thing, bloodline or otherwise, big stretch there. Bet she
could do a lot with Jon Snow or Daenerys' blood, but the politics of
which blood is legimiately kingly in a land with at least five kings
is a bit dodgy at best. Could she use Theon Greyjoy's blood? Seems
like there will be plenty of that in our next book...
> > Though safe to
> > assume that Gendry (Robert's senior bastard) would be trumped by
> > Daenerys, even without John as a husband, again assuming that is where
> > we are going.
>
> I don't like where we are going.
>
Sure you do. I sincerely hope we can trust Martin to surprise us.
After ten years of waiting, he's had plenty of time to come up with
something surprising, hasn't he?
Ben
Ben
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:54:32 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, very Martin, and it sure doesn't appear that Robert has any more
> > purpose in the story other than to create this controversy, so it
> > would seem to be inevitable.
>
> As Brick Top once said, "you're not much good to me alive, are you?" I
> do wonder what his purpose would be, or his place in the story should
> he survive.
>
> Of course, as a deathly-ill weakling nutbag with no parents and
> surrounded by a lot of people who hate him, he seems to be the least
> likely survivor and therefore, by Martin-logic, the most likely.
>
Good point.
> But yeah, I think the plot would become much more interesting with him
> dead. His scenes with Sansa, his increasingly nutty demands that
> people get thrown out of his windows, and his seizures have really
> expended their entertainment value unless they all move to the next
> level.
>
> Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
> if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
> direction for her.
>
Agreed, she needs to learn the art of cold-blooded bitch, because she
is never going to learn the art of cunning manipulator.
>
> > So far Littlefinger has managed to work around all the curve balls he
> > has been thrown. Unlike Varys he clearly does not know everything, but
> > rolls with the punches like a champ. Curious how this will go, though.
>
> Yeah, sooner or later he'll just have too many watermelons in the air
> and they'll all come raining down and I want to be there with a smile
> on my face when it happens.
>
Agreed completely, though I wonder how late in the game that will be.
Many of his plans need to come to fruition first, I think, so we can
see the pride before the fall.
>
> > Promising start to that with the previews.
>
> Oh yeah, so there was. I'd forgotten about that, it had been so long.
>
Let's not go there. Just got another update from Amazon saying October
2010, might as well be 20010 for believability.
>
> > Loras is certainly alive and almost certainly humbled. A behind the
> > scenes death just isn't going to happen for this character.
>
> I'd like to hope most of the greats will get their on-screen deaths.
> It's no more than they deserve.
>
Agreed, including such unknown notables as Benjen Stark and a few
others whose mystery remains unsolved (Davos the Onion Knight?)
Ben
Ben
> On Oct 5, 9:53 am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
> > Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
> > if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
> > direction for her.
>
> Li'l Lord Robert seems to me to be a literary device by which Sansa
> learns to be manipulative. He's not a character in his own right,
> just used for illustration. Sooner we're rid of him, the better off
> we are, in my opinion.
>
> [snip Littlefinger 'cause I just don't know about him]
>
Baelish is pivotal. Even in my advanced state of senile GRRM-induced
dementia I know about Littlefinger!
>
> How much you want to bet Theon survives, but nobody, including him,
> knows it's Theon? I think he's utterly destroyed mentally, and nobody
> but nobody gives a damn either way.
>
> Except then why would he get a POV chapter? That's my only problem
> with the idea.
>
No fun there. Theon deserves to be humiliated and destroyed, but if he
doesn't know himself, then it lessens the pain. No, he will know who
he is, but anybody else who does doesn't give a shit! Sad that this is
something I am looking so forward to.
> > > > >Something about him I dislike very much. And
> > > > >that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
> > > > >punched in the face.
>
> > > > Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
> > > > satisfying.
>
> > > Absolutely. My guess is that we see this guy again, preferably in a
> > > Braavosi slave market or something satisfying like that.
>
> Didn't Arya kill him? The night before she 'went blind'? Speaking of
> whom, didn't Ned once say something about a wolf alone dies, while the
> pack survives? Who is our favorite lone wolf? Which audience is in
> for another death of one of its favorite characters?
>
Did she? I remember her running into him and that actually does sound
familiar come to think of it. Very frustrating having these
discussions and not remembering the details. Not enough to go back and
re-read for the fourth time yet, though...
Ben
chro...@gmail.com
> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "chrom...@gmail.com" <chrom...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Oct 5, 9:53 am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
> > > Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
> > > if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
> > > direction for her.
>
> > Li'l Lord Robert seems to me to be a literary device by which Sansa
> > learns to be manipulative. He's not a character in his own right,
> > just used for illustration. Sooner we're rid of him, the better off
> > we are, in my opinion.
>
> > [snip Littlefinger 'cause I just don't know about him]
>
> Don't know about Littlefinger? How can this be? Like or dislike, Petyr
> Baelish is pivotal. Even in my advanced state of senile GRRM-induced
> dementia I know about Littlefinger!
>
P Player in the Game. I just don't have an opinion about where's
headed or what's going to happen to him when he gets there.
Oops, boss is here! Time to go. More later, if I get a chance.
Penelope
wrote:
>On Oct 5, 9:53�am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>Sounds good, I will follow that sound policy.
>
>Flashing me back. Dany and a few others do have memories of Rhaegar's
>encounter with Lyanna (which I think most likely led to Jon Snow),
>which would provide another option (other than the Crab-Man, who
>apparently is the only one to know Jon's real story who is still
>alive).
1. Dany had yet to be born when Rhaegar and Lyanna "encountered".
2. Crannogman, at least I think that's how it's spelled. It's not crab
man, though. That sounds like the headliner at the Monster Matinee.
>> So she wouldn't have thought of marrying Drogo as a better alternative
>> to marrying a brother, necessarily. But she did go along with Viserys
>> out of as much loyalty and faith in the Targaryen destiny than she did
>> out of fear, I'll grant that.
>>
>Sure, and I wasn't referring to her distaste for sybling marriage, as
>it was clear she did not feel that way. But choosing between a giant
>savage she doesn't know and Viserys, her choice was very clear.
She was afraid of Drogo, but she was more afraid of Viserys. Plus, she
was still emotionally a child, and accustomed to doing as Viserys
ordered. If you remember, she became less and less meek around Viserys
the longer she was with Drogo. He expected her to remain subordinate,
but she began to act more as his superior
>> > Great question. It sure sounded like the truth, where most of what
>> > Varys says sounds like dodgy BS that even he doesn't believe.
>>
>> Yep, and the situation was such that he did seem to be confiding. I
>> mean, I can't see that it would benefit him in any way, the way a lot
>> of his other prattling does. When he deals with idiots, he can titter
>> into his scented handkerchiefs all he likes, but he recognised Tyrion
>> as a smart guy.
>>
>And perhaps as someone who could understand the depth of his work?
>Tyrion has long been a behind the scenes guy himself, notably
>vulnerable to the one thing that Varys could not possibly be (lacking
>the equipment), but otherwise Tyrion is someone that could appreciate
>some of the machinations Varys has put in play.
Tyrion was Tywin Lanister's son, for all that Tywin wished he wasn't.
Varys really couldn't expect things to go quite so wrong between them
that Tyrion might not tell Tywin some of his games. I think Varys was
playing Tyrion just like he played everybody else. What better way to
have a hold over Tyrion than the set-up with Shae that he arranged?
>> This takes us into slippery territory, of course, where Varys
>> masterminded the beginning, middle and end of Tyrion's downfall right
>> down to the sordid little details of Shae turning up in Tywin's
>> bedchamber. I don't believe that for a moment, but like you said:
>> Varys is a guy who can see what he wants, and then make sure it
>> happens. He undoubtedly knew that once Tyrion was blamed for killing
>> Joffrey and Cersei was convinced (and how couldn't she be, with the
>> valonqar prophecy eating a hole in her already quite drafty mind?),
>> the resulting court case would be a miscarriage of justice worthy of
>> Melisandre and her shadow-assassin-placenta-monster of doom.
>>
>I think this might not be so farfetched. Who knew the secret passages
>in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
>Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
>Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys. Even if he
>did not organize the frame, he certainly took part in it and
>understood its value. And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
Ok, I think you guys are making this overly complicated. I think the
Tyrell women managed the poisoning of Joffery, and bless their little
Highgarden hearts, too; but no one, not Varys or the Queen of Thorns
could plan for Joff to leave his seat and run down to where Tyrion was
sitting just after they poisoned the wine. I think it was a stroke of
luck for them, and they steadfastly kept the finger of blame pointed
towards Tyrion once the chance arose.
We also know that Littlefinger made the poison available to the ladies
Tyrell, and that he nudged Joff towards having the dwarf and pig act
at the wedding, so I wonder if he was the architect behind Tyrion
getting blamed. He wanted Sansa, and having her married to Tyrion was
an impediment to his plans for her.
>> Just so. Tyrion, funnily enough, seems to be capable of the most
>> insightful and intelligent conversations with everyone you'd least
>> expect - Varys, Jon, Sansa - and yet completely fails to ever have a
>> rational conversation with a member of his own family.
>>
>> There's an interesting dichotomy. Intentional?
Family politics are a bitch.
>I can relate, though as said previously I find the necessary
>ingredients for a rational conversation (two rational people at least)
>increasingly difficult to procure. Tyrion does seem to have the
>ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
>intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
>talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
>Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen. It seems hard to believe that
>a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
>money in the first place...
Weren't their gold mines on the Lannister lands?
>> > What Dany is doing now is I think way above and beyond the
>> > plan, though the dragons seem to be part of the plan.
>>
>> Oh yeah. Their delivery to her hands does seem to be something more
>> than an accident. I mean, it stretches the old willing suspension of
>> ddisbelief to think it's all random chance.
>>
>No, that one is certainly orchestrated, though whether anybody thought
>she could bring them to live seems dubious. Seems more like it would
>be immensely valuable and moreso in the hands of a Targaryen (and
>therefore presumably legitimate), something she (or Viserys as you
>prefer) could use to make deals.
You know, Illyrio makes a passing reference to the Red priests. I've
always wondered if he and Varys were devotees to another sect of that
religion. If all the followers of R'llor know and/or believe in the
prophecy of Azor Ahai, they may also have different candidates for who
fulfills the prophecy. So, I'm thinking perhaps Varys and Illyrio are
backing Dany for Azor Ahai.
>> > My guess is that
>> > Dany is ahead of schedule now, and with considerably more muscle than
>> > the conspirators planned on. Whether or not they took the Others into
>> > account seems unlikely.
I think that's the whole point.
>
>> Unless of course Viserys was holding the eggs when Drogo crowned him
>> with molten gold somewhere in Westeros, and they hatched then. And
>> that would still be a far from optimal situation. As it is, Danaerys
>> seems to have been the beneficiary of almost divine providence. In
>> fact, scrap the "almost".
>>
>> Maybe Varys et al knew Drogo would kill Viserys as soon as he and
>> Danaerys were married, if not before. I mean, look at the way business
>> is conducted in Southeros.
>>
>A fair bet, though either way Varys/Illyrio get what they wanted, a
>massive army influenced by the Targaryens. Though how they could have
>predicted Dany and/or Viserys persuading Drogo to do anything was
>surely the biggest uncertainty in the plan, presumably of course.
I think Drago was a way to get Dany away from Viserys. Once she had
the dragons, he would have been irrelevant to their plans.
>Could just as easily be my mistake, but I seem to remember Belwas and
>Ser Barristan saving her from a Faceless Man. I could also be mixing
>this up with Arya, though.
Ser Barristan did save her from an assassin.
>> > It may just be me, but I think that Varys did not take Cersei's crazy
>> > into account, and so he has had to go into contingency mode to save
>> > his own ass. Who could plan what Cersei does? I don't think even she
>> > knows what she is going to do next!
>>
>> You make a good point. Like Littlefinger, it seems as though Varys is
>> backing off and just waiting to see what Cersei burns down next. And
>> they're both cunning tacticians, so I suppose that makes sense.
>Cersei you don't plan for. You wait for her to fuck up, then take
>advantage of it. You know its going to happen, just don't know how or
>when. Interesting point, though, as Varys appears to still be pulling
>a lot of strings locally, while Littlefinger seems to have taken the
>better part of valor and reset himself. Unless Littlefinger has some
>irons still in the fire in King's Landing (likely). I do think it
>shows Varys is the better of the two as far as manipulation goes,
>mostly because he seems to seek little or nothing for himself. Besides
>he isn't a pervy molester, but let's not open that Pandora's Box.
I think Littlefinger was counting on Cersei to make a mess of it all,
thus making the whole country ready for another ruler. He mentions to
Sansa that Cersei is screwing things up faster than he anticipated.
>> Ah, Dacey Mormont. Wasn't she killed at the Red Wedding? Or just
>> wounded and captured? Yeah, she had a morningstar or something badass
>> like that. Nobody gave her the sort of shit that Brienne seemed to be
>> a magnet for.
>>
>I thought she was one of the few (along with one of the Umbers) that
>was still a genuine Stark supporter and still out there, though hiding
>away on Bear Island.
Dacey was killed at the Red Wedding by an ax to the stomach, if I
remember correctly. Her mother had been sent away on some business
Penelope
--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed" <poppy...@yahoo.com>
Ben
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:42:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Flashing me back. Dany and a few others do have memories of Rhaegar's
> >encounter with Lyanna (which I think most likely led to Jon Snow),
> >which would provide another option (other than the Crab-Man, who
> >apparently is the only one to know Jon's real story who is still
> >alive).
>
> 1. Dany had yet to be born when Rhaegar and Lyanna "encountered".
>
not long before Robert et. al. went to war with him. However this must
be right considering that Jon Snow is older than Dany is. Thanks for
the correction, Penelope.
> 2. Crannogman, at least I think that's how it's spelled. It's not crab
> man, though. That sounds like the headliner at the Monster Matinee.
>
Yeah, but Crabman sounds better. Or Frog-sucker, something like that.
Still curious why this guy hasn't made any kind of appearance, while
his kids have been so prominent. I guess when he does appear he will
have some good stuff, yet another thing to wait for...
>
> >Sure, and I wasn't referring to her distaste for sybling marriage, as
> >it was clear she did not feel that way. But choosing between a giant
> >savage she doesn't know and Viserys, her choice was very clear.
>
> She was afraid of Drogo, but she was more afraid of Viserys. Plus, she
> was still emotionally a child, and accustomed to doing as Viserys
> ordered. If you remember, she became less and less meek around Viserys
> the longer she was with Drogo. He expected her to remain subordinate,
> but she began to act more as his superior
>
Absolutely, good point. I think this was her simply beginning to
understand what an ineffective douche Viserys was because she was now
exposed to a "real man"
>
> >And perhaps as someone who could understand the depth of his work?
> >Tyrion has long been a behind the scenes guy himself, notably
> >vulnerable to the one thing that Varys could not possibly be (lacking
> >the equipment), but otherwise Tyrion is someone that could appreciate
> >some of the machinations Varys has put in play.
>
> Tyrion was Tywin Lanister's son, for all that Tywin wished he wasn't.
> Varys really couldn't expect things to go quite so wrong between them
> that Tyrion might not tell Tywin some of his games. I think Varys was
> playing Tyrion just like he played everybody else. What better way to
> have a hold over Tyrion than the set-up with Shae that he arranged?
>
Sure, I don't think Varys was actually trying to make friends, but the
point was whether or not he was telling the truth, for once. And I
agree with Chucky's perspective that he was (or at least might have
been). The truth can often help along a plan as well as deception.
>
> >I think this might not be so farfetched. Who knew the secret passages
> >in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
> >Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
> >Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys. Even if he
> >did not organize the frame, he certainly took part in it and
> >understood its value. And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
>
> Ok, I think you guys are making this overly complicated. I think the
> Tyrell women managed the poisoning of Joffery, and bless their little
> Highgarden hearts, too; but no one, not Varys or the Queen of Thorns
> could plan for Joff to leave his seat and run down to where Tyrion was
> sitting just after they poisoned the wine. I think it was a stroke of
> luck for them, and they steadfastly kept the finger of blame pointed
> towards Tyrion once the chance arose.
>
Sure, but it just seems to be something that works so much in Varys'
favor (in his over-arching plan, assuming that is what I think it is)
that it is unlikely he didn't have his hand in it. Admittedly there is
no evidence of this, so far.
> We also know that Littlefinger made the poison available to the ladies
> Tyrell, and that he nudged Joff towards having the dwarf and pig act
> at the wedding, so I wonder if he was the architect behind Tyrion
> getting blamed. He wanted Sansa, and having her married to Tyrion was
> an impediment to his plans for her.
>
Good point, and I readily admit to not remembering actively which of
the two was actively manipulating which situation. But I'll stand by
my belief that it benefited Varys and so he probably had a hand in the
action.
>
> >I can relate, though as said previously I find the necessary
> >ingredients for a rational conversation (two rational people at least)
> >increasingly difficult to procure. Tyrion does seem to have the
> >ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
> >intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
> >talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
> >Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen. It seems hard to believe that
> >a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
> >money in the first place...
>
> Weren't their gold mines on the Lannister lands?
>
Yeah, but I remember they did something dodgy to get the lands in the
first place, however long ago that was. Also a lot of back-door
politics take place in the books, none of which seem particularly
Tywin-like. Most of the other Lannisters seem rather bold and perhaps
even stupid? Whatever genes spawned Tyrion were probably the same ones
responsible for the shady deals, though the Tywins of the past were
the murderers and truce-breakers.
>
> >No, that one is certainly orchestrated, though whether anybody thought
> >she could bring them to live seems dubious. Seems more like it would
> >be immensely valuable and moreso in the hands of a Targaryen (and
> >therefore presumably legitimate), something she (or Viserys as you
> >prefer) could use to make deals.
>
> You know, Illyrio makes a passing reference to the Red priests. I've
> always wondered if he and Varys were devotees to another sect of that
> religion. If all the followers of R'llor know and/or believe in the
> prophecy of Azor Ahai, they may also have different candidates for who
> fulfills the prophecy. So, I'm thinking perhaps Varys and Illyrio are
> backing Dany for Azor Ahai.
>
I think you have made this point before on the group, and its a good
one. I think they are definitely not in the same cult as Melisandre,
but the fire religion in a world that has fire-breathing creatures and
fire demons would almost certainly be pretty popular. And Dany makes a
lot of sense in the Azor Ahai role. Don't they even point out later
that the translation of this as a man is incorrect, that the role is
gender neutral?
>
> >A fair bet, though either way Varys/Illyrio get what they wanted, a
> >massive army influenced by the Targaryens. Though how they could have
> >predicted Dany and/or Viserys persuading Drogo to do anything was
> >surely the biggest uncertainty in the plan, presumably of course.
>
> I think Drago was a way to get Dany away from Viserys. Once she had
> the dragons, he would have been irrelevant to their plans.
>
Pretty strong foresight though to know that she ever would have the
dragons alive, unless (and this is probably the case) they knew a lot
that we don't know.
> >Could just as easily be my mistake, but I seem to remember Belwas and
> >Ser Barristan saving her from a Faceless Man. I could also be mixing
> >this up with Arya, though.
>
> Ser Barristan did save her from an assassin.
>
I may be jumbling this. I remember when they first were introduced
they saved her. But the Faceless Man phrase being heard during the
attempt just sounds very familiar to me. Gotta crack open the books
again...
>
> >Cersei you don't plan for. You wait for her to fuck up, then take
> >advantage of it. You know its going to happen, just don't know how or
> >when. Interesting point, though, as Varys appears to still be pulling
> >a lot of strings locally, while Littlefinger seems to have taken the
> >better part of valor and reset himself. Unless Littlefinger has some
> >irons still in the fire in King's Landing (likely). I do think it
> >shows Varys is the better of the two as far as manipulation goes,
> >mostly because he seems to seek little or nothing for himself. Besides
> >he isn't a pervy molester, but let's not open that Pandora's Box.
>
> I think Littlefinger was counting on Cersei to make a mess of it all,
> thus making the whole country ready for another ruler. He mentions to
> Sansa that Cersei is screwing things up faster than he anticipated.
>
Yeah, but what is Littlefinger's plan on taking advantage of all this?
He is in no position to take anything over himself, and he seems to be
chiefly interested in his own position, unlike Varys who is
representing someone else. It doesn't take a mastermind to understand
that Cersei would fuck everything up, but Littlefinger is not really
involved in that at all, dealing with a whole different ball of wax.
Who would the new ruler be, if Littlefinger had his way?
> >> Ah, Dacey Mormont. Wasn't she killed at the Red Wedding? Or just
> >> wounded and captured? Yeah, she had a morningstar or something badass
> >> like that. Nobody gave her the sort of shit that Brienne seemed to be
> >> a magnet for.
>
> >I thought she was one of the few (along with one of the Umbers) that
> >was still a genuine Stark supporter and still out there, though hiding
> >away on Bear Island.
>
> Dacey was killed at the Red Wedding by an ax to the stomach, if I
> remember correctly. Her mother had been sent away on some business
>
Yeah, Dacey was the daughter, and she was killed. I was thinking of
her mother, Jorah's sister Maege, who is still holed up on Bear
Island. That was the whole conversation abou Jorah not being able to
afford his sister, tied back to Dany...
Ben
Michelle J. Haines
> On Oct 5, 9:53 am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
>> Cersei would be a difficult woman to rape, I think. She always seems
>> to get there first. If somebody could be of potential use to her (and
>> I imagine that for somebody to rape Cersei, he would be in a position
>> of power over her current circumstances, rather than just somebody who
>> ... eh, cold-cocks her in an alley one night), she fucks him before it
>> even gets to be an issue.
>>
> Good point, physical rape she would definitely use to her advantage.
> What would the equivalent be in Cersei land? Maybe taking away her
> looks? A nice scar or mastectomy? Or sew her greatest weapon shut?
Random aside, and I'm sure I'll get a sarcastic rejoinder from Chucky
for saying it...
...but this part of this conversation is really repulsive. I'm just
sayin'
Michelle
Flutist
Ben
> Ben wrote:
> > Good point, physical rape she would definitely use to her advantage.
> > What would the equivalent be in Cersei land? Maybe taking away her
> > looks? A nice scar or mastectomy? Or sew her greatest weapon shut?
>
> Random aside, and I'm sure I'll get a sarcastic rejoinder from Chucky
> for saying it...
>
> ...but this part of this conversation is really repulsive. I'm just
> sayin'
>
Yeah, you are right, I forget there are ladies participating. No
offense, Penelope...<g>
Ben
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> > I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this, thinking back to some
> > of the thousand-post, thousand-line threads I've helped create over
> > the years. To me, there is no limit.
>
> We might test that theory. I just finished up in school and am killing
> time trying to get over writer's block. This dialogue has been quite
> useful in that pursuit.
I'm still shaking the rust off over here. It's good to encounter
somebody with an attention-span. Penelope and Will do their best,
bless 'em, but Penelope and I seem to be unable to get into a good
fight (she's distressingly rational and intelligent, by which I mean
she agrees with most of my views), and Will ... Well, he's got more
important things to do, like get in front of people in supermarket
lines, drive really slowly in the overtaking lane, count out pennies
to pay for his bus ticket, and sit on his rocking chair and grumble
about the state of today's youth.
> > Eventually, a post reaches a sort of equilibrium. I don't answer
> > everything, although it has happened (rarely) that I cut something the
> > other poster wants me to address and I have to go back for it. Far
> > more frequently, it is the other poster cutting stuff I want them to
> > address, but I accept that not everyone has my attention-span for long
> > discussions and typing for minutes and minutes at a time.
>
> Well then you've found the right victim in me.
Marvellous!
> None of my friends are
> literate enough to understand or talk about aSoIaF, and would be quite
> mystified by a discussion of literature of any kind. So unlikely that
> you'll find me unwilling (though perhaps unable) to comment or address
> points brought up.
Ah, a brain-starved student with nothing but time on his hands. Of
such things are AFGRRM legends made. Now if we can just get into an
all-in, gloves-off, foam-spraying screaming match about something.
> > Hmm. Well, I guess she did have a sense of duty. But then I also
> > remember her thinking that marriage between siblings was normal (as
> > indeed it was for the Targaryens), and that Viserys should have been a
> > girl. That way, she reflects, Rhaegar would have been able to marry
> > him (her), and wouldn't have had to marry Ashara Dayne
Did I mean Ashara Dayne, anyway? I think I didn't mean Ashara Dayne at
all. Because she was meant to be the one who Ned was in love with, and
who conveniently committed suicide so nobody could ask her about where
Jon Snow came from.
Rhaegar's wife was ... Elara? Something like that? As I recall, she
was put very gently and humanely out of her misery by Gregor "(Really)
Big Softie" Clegane.
> > or be seduced
> > by "the wolf girl" in whatever way that happened.
>
> Flashing me back. Dany and a few others do have memories of Rhaegar's
> encounter with Lyanna (which I think most likely led to Jon Snow),
Well, as Penny pointed out it was a vision, specifically, that
Danaerys has of Rhaegar and the wolf-girl, or at least she had a
vision of Rhaegar and it triggers a memory of someone (was it Viserys?
Or Jorah?) telling her about how Rhaegar had kicked arse at jousting
and gave the rose to Lyanna instead of his wife-to-be.
> which would provide another option (other than the Crab-Man, who
> apparently is the only one to know Jon's real story who is still
> alive).
Howland Reed of Greywater Watch, the Fabulous Frog Eater of Many
Secrets (the frogs he eats, that is, not the secrets although he could
very well eat them as well). Also known as the Basil Exposition of the
Song of Ice and Fire saga.
A very Martinesque choice of Basils, given that we've never seen him
or heard anything from him first-hand, and yet he probably knows
everything (including how he and Ned managed to depopulate an entire
tower all by themselves and make everyone believe a non-pregnant woman
was pregnant retroactively for nine months, and a pregnant woman look
non-pregnant over the same period. I'm guessing a coathanger and a
flux capacitor were needed) and as soon as we *do* see him, he'll
probably choke to death on a frog bone before he can say anything
remotely useful.
> What you made me think of when I read this was Viserys as Rhaegar's
> "girlfriend" ala prison girlfriend, which would have been quite
> appropriate, though if he were a girl he probably would not have been
> so much of a cunt (ironically).
And then every time he failed to get pregnant, Rhaegar would beat him.
Although if he *did* get pregnant, I imagine he'd give birth to
something a little like Joffrey Baratheon.
> > So she wouldn't have thought of marrying Drogo as a better alternative
> > to marrying a brother, necessarily. But she did go along with Viserys
> > out of as much loyalty and faith in the Targaryen destiny than she did
> > out of fear, I'll grant that.
>
> Sure, and I wasn't referring to her distaste for sybling marriage, as
> it was clear she did not feel that way. But choosing between a giant
> savage she doesn't know and Viserys, her choice was very clear.
Well, her choice was nonexistent. Viserys made it for her.
> > > Great question. It sure sounded like the truth, where most of what
> > > Varys says sounds like dodgy BS that even he doesn't believe.
>
> > Yep, and the situation was such that he did seem to be confiding. I
> > mean, I can't see that it would benefit him in any way, the way a lot
> > of his other prattling does. When he deals with idiots, he can titter
> > into his scented handkerchiefs all he likes, but he recognised Tyrion
> > as a smart guy.
>
> And perhaps as someone who could understand the depth of his work?
Someone who, in the fullness of time, might be convinced to see that
getting rid of the Lannisters and putting the Targaryens back on the
throne was the right call?
Hmm, maybe going too far. At least until the final few pages of Storm
of Swords, Tyrion was still pretty loyal to his family for some
bizarre, probably-psychological reason. Varys wouldn't have been able
to foresee that coming to an end, although he may have known more
about Tyrion's history than he let on. In fact that much is almost
certain.
But certainly he would have seen in Tyrion a kindred smarmy-pants.
> Tyrion has long been a behind the scenes guy himself, notably
> vulnerable to the one thing that Varys could not possibly be (lacking
> the equipment), but otherwise Tyrion is someone that could appreciate
> some of the machinations Varys has put in play.
Not while they were machinations at the expense of his family ...
until now. Now, I think he'll be all about the machinations at the
expense of his family.
> > I wonder, furthermore, how much of his plans for re-establishing the
> > Targaryens "the right way" fitted in with what happened to Tyrion.
> > Maybe Varys saw Tyrion as a good asset while he was Hand, but couldn't
> > see any way for any of the Lannisters to survive Danaerys's return.
> > Except now, Tyrion is out of the Lannister family and might just be of
> > benefit to Danaerys after all. And he loves dragons.
>
> I like this theory very much, removing Tyrion from play to save him.
I don't know how much of it Varys *made happen*, but I can see him
watching it begin, and then helping it along any way he could. It's
really just a slightly more violent form of sowing discontent and then
headhunting useful people from among the ranks of the enemy. Happens
everywhere.
> And this could very well, once all is burnt and rebuilt, be a way for
> the Lannister house to find its way back into the good graces of the
> Targaryens, which would be a very good thing for both parties.
Jaime, Cersei and Tywin need to die first. If they can do so over the
course of the next two books, in a process involving paper cuts, so
much the better.
> > This takes us into slippery territory, of course, where Varys
> > masterminded the beginning, middle and end of Tyrion's downfall right
> > down to the sordid little details of Shae turning up in Tywin's
> > bedchamber. I don't believe that for a moment, but like you said:
> > Varys is a guy who can see what he wants, and then make sure it
> > happens. He undoubtedly knew that once Tyrion was blamed for killing
> > Joffrey and Cersei was convinced (and how couldn't she be, with the
> > valonqar prophecy eating a hole in her already quite drafty mind?),
> > the resulting court case would be a miscarriage of justice worthy of
> > Melisandre and her shadow-assassin-placenta-monster of doom.
>
> I think this might not be so farfetched.
Gah!
I can see I didn't go far enough.
> Who knew the secret passages
> in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
> Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
> Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys.
He testified against Tyrion, in his own way. And certainly the Tyrells
weren't going to step in and say "you've got the wrong man". But I
don't think Varys would have done much more than that. It would have
been too difficult to control what happened to Tyrion should he be
found guilty.
> Even if he did not organize the frame, he certainly took
> part in it and understood its value.
He probably knew Oberyn was in King's Landing looking for vengeance,
since justice seemed out of the question. He may have been able to
predict that Tyrion would be okay, at least until the fight between
Oberyn and Gregor was over. And then he could have helped Jaime to
bust him out.
But so much of this would have been beyond his ability to control.
We'll see, I suppose, if another re-read and re-CHOW makes it seem
otherwise. But for the moment I'm happy to think Varys assisted Tyrion
where he could, and was probably happy with the way the retard sheep
of the Lannister family ostracised the lone goat ... but beyond that,
I fall into sarcasm territory.
> And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
It smells of Tywin being a giant hypocritical cunt, is what it smells
like.
> I can relate, though as said previously I find the necessary
> ingredients for a rational conversation (two rational people at least)
> increasingly difficult to procure.
That's a sad fact of life.
> Tyrion does seem to have the
> ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
> intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
> talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
> Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen.
Could be. I seem to recall that Tywin's sister had it too. She was
married to a halfwit, but she manages to give Jaime a talking-to when
she sees him. She seems OK.
> It seems hard to believe that
> a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
> money in the first place...
Nah, he definitely inherited all his money. Whatever cash Granddaddy
Lannister left behind him in the cloud of loving, happy peasants and
hookers.
> No, that one is certainly orchestrated, though whether anybody thought
> she could bring them to live seems dubious. Seems more like it would
> be immensely valuable and moreso in the hands of a Targaryen (and
> therefore presumably legitimate), something she (or Viserys as you
> prefer) could use to make deals.
That seemed to be the intent of them, although it was stated early on
in the story that the eggs were really enormously valuable, and
couldn't be usefully traded for anything. An army, perhaps, or a fleet
of ships. In the end, of course, Danaerys trades a live dragon and
then backsies it. Heh.
"Hey, no backsies! Argh, my epidermis!"
> > I would tend to doubt it, if only because this way it leaves them with
> > a magnificent grasp on politics but falling short of the divine
> > omniscience required to predict everything.
>
> Agreed. I am very curious whether Dany will (in the seventh book or
> whenever she finally makes it back over to Westeros) have to fight her
> way through Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell/Iron Islanders etc. or if it
> will be more prudent to have her head straight north.
I think she'll arrive and find everybody dead. And then shrug to
herself and go to kill the Others and marry Jon or whatever.
> day. Curious during all that time what Jon Snow and Stannis will be
> doing, as I can't see them lasting too long against a concerted
> attack, particularly if somebody finds the Horn and knocks down the
> Wall (which seems rather likely at some point).
I really doubt the horn is going to work that way. In fact, didn't
someone blow it already? For some reason I had this idea that someone
blew the horn and that was what woke the Others up in the first place.
Or something the Wildlings did woke them up.
The horn will only bring down the Wall in some lame, metaphorical way
that Martin will make neat somehow.
> Viserys would have been just as unsuitable as Dany was, but they would
> have murdered him for the attempt. Considering the birthing method,
> unlikely Viserys COULD have birthed the dragons, and impossible that
> he WOULD have.
Although it's funny how close to the mark some of those nutty
Targaryen kings got. Burning themselves in an attempt to turn into
dragons.
> > I don't remember that. I'm getting it mixed up with Arya and the other
> > incidents in Oldtown, but did Danaerys get some hints as well?
>
> Could just as easily be my mistake, but I seem to remember Belwas and
> Ser Barristan saving her from a Faceless Man. I could also be mixing
> this up with Arya, though.
Robert authorised a Faceless Man to kill Danaerys, but did we ever see
it get close to her?
> Cersei you don't plan for. You wait for her to fuck up, then take
> advantage of it. You know its going to happen, just don't know how or
> when. Interesting point, though, as Varys appears to still be pulling
> a lot of strings locally, while Littlefinger seems to have taken the
> better part of valor and reset himself. Unless Littlefinger has some
> irons still in the fire in King's Landing (likely).
Cersei makes some remark about Littlefinger not caring about anything,
and only asking them to send him some tapestries he left behind. This
was such a nonsensical message for him to send, and Cersei was so
stupidly dismissive of it, that I can't help but think the tapestries
were of enormous importance.
Littlefinger probably wanted them sent to him so he could use them
later, and he didn't want Cersei randomly burning them on her
self-destructive Regentzilla rampage.
> I do think it
> shows Varys is the better of the two as far as manipulation goes,
> mostly because he seems to seek little or nothing for himself. Besides
> he isn't a pervy molester, but let's not open that Pandora's Box.
Bahahahaha. Indeed.
Varys seems to have other motives than pure self-improvement, although
the truth is we've seen literally none of them and everything is
guesswork at this point. Littlefinger at least has a case of the Bad
Guy Monologues with Sansa while he's petting her, so we sort of know
what he's about.
Although even that could be a lie ... but from what we know of his
past and his character, he's probably in it for himself.
> > Ah, Dacey Mormont. Wasn't she killed at the Red Wedding? Or just
> > wounded and captured? Yeah, she had a morningstar or something badass
> > like that. Nobody gave her the sort of shit that Brienne seemed to be
> > a magnet for.
>
> I thought she was one of the few (along with one of the Umbers) that
> was still a genuine Stark supporter and still out there, though hiding
She was a Stark supporter, right enough, but she died. Pretty sure.
> it, but I do think that one of the Mormonts is still actively holding
> Bear Island, and some Umber uncle is holding their castle (wherever
> the hell that is). Other than that it's just the Bog-dudes who are
> still loyal to whatever is left of Stark-ville.
Yup. Not sure who is still around after the Red Wedding. None of the
point of view characters in the latest book seemed to give much of a
shit about it.
> > Heh, tell me about it.
>
> > I mean, the Lannisters. Not your family. You can tell me about them
> > later.
>
> This post has gotten long enough. Save that for my psychiatrist (as
> soon as I can afford one!)
This newsgroup is a cheap alternative.
> In-series absolutely. More than just the Targaryens don't seem to find
> it absolutely taboo, though no others seem to openly condone it. In
> Jaime-Cersei, it seems less to be a problem with sybling love than it
> does with the legitimacy of her kids, which is what the whole
> Baratheon claim hinges on.
Jaime was all for declaring themselves openly, with the staggeringly
dodgy claim "if it was okay for the Targaryens, it's okay for us."
There's a slogan. Worthy of a re-write to the Lannister Family Words,
I reckon.
> > Cersei would be a difficult woman to rape, I think. She always seems
> > to get there first. If somebody could be of potential use to her (and
> > I imagine that for somebody to rape Cersei, he would be in a position
> > of power over her current circumstances, rather than just somebody who
> > ... eh, cold-cocks her in an alley one night), she fucks him before it
> > even gets to be an issue.
>
> Good point, physical rape she would definitely use to her advantage.
> What would the equivalent be in Cersei land? Maybe taking away her
> looks? A nice scar or mastectomy? Or sew her greatest weapon shut?
Yeah, a lot of this stuff is happening to Jaime already. But I think
the whole sequence where she is locked up, scourged, basically reduced
to a starving sleep-deprived nobody without power or dignity by the
High Sparrow (who I still half-hope is Varys in disguise, or possibly
Wylla), is a great start. What does she care about, other than
herself? Nothing. So what does she have? Her looks, her power, her sex
appeal. Almost all of this is going to suffer in her current
circumstances, particularly her power. She's never had anyone tell her
what to do before, or treat her as if she were less important than
someone else. Robert was the last to do that, and to a lesser degree
her father, and she hated Robert and declared herself greater and
smarter and more ferocious than Tywin.
So yeah, this is perfectly poetic, and I look forward to seeing it
continue.
> > But certainly she needs to have a lot more shit happen to her before
> > she dies. Possibly involving Qyburn and his creations.
>
> Rape by FrankenGregor? She might even like that!
I'm thinking more like the High Sparrow kicking that whole hornet's
nest apart, Qyburn running away, and Cersei being forced to bunk with
a whole heap of her vivisected former friends who chew her skin off.
> Yeah, but it allowed for the support of similarly inflexible people
> like the dead Starks, though not coincidentally nearly all of those
> inflexible people are now mortally inflexible, quite rigid if you
> will.
Yep. If you can't bend, you break. Stannis, I think, has already
broken, but he's not dead yet.
> I think her nuttery is a pivotal thing for the series, and she clearly
> can use royal blood to make things happen. Never understood the
> Mance's baby thing, bloodline or otherwise, big stretch there. Bet she
> could do a lot with Jon Snow or Daenerys' blood,
Of course, Danaerys has already proven just how much her blood can
achieve in a fire-sacrifice situation. I doubt Melisandre would have
been able to do anything more impressive with it.
> > > Though safe to
> > > assume that Gendry (Robert's senior bastard) would be trumped by
> > > Daenerys, even without John as a husband, again assuming that is where
> > > we are going.
>
> > I don't like where we are going.
>
> Sure you do.
No! You can't make me!
> I sincerely hope we can trust Martin to surprise us.
> After ten years of waiting, he's had plenty of time to come up with
> something surprising, hasn't he?
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Me, I'm not going to expect too much.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
>> > > Yeah, all of them at once. I want to see more bits getting flayed from
>> > > Theon. He was a complete twat.
>>
>> > Promising start to that with the previews.
>>
>> Oh yeah, so there was. I'd forgotten about that, it had been so long.
>
>How much you want to bet Theon survives, but nobody, including him,
>knows it's Theon? I think he's utterly destroyed mentally, and nobody
>but nobody gives a damn either way.
I seem to recall the teaser chapter made it seem as though he was
convinced that he was Ramsay Snow, or Pate the pig-boy, or
whoeverthefuck, Reek.
As long as *we* know it's Theon, I'll be happy.
>Except then why would he get a POV chapter? That's my only problem
>with the idea.
The story can still go on around him, even if he doesn't know who he
is and is driven mad with pain and humiliation. In fact, the story
will be better for it!
>> > > >that prick singer Daeron who let Aemon die in Braavos, the one Sam
>> > > >punched in the face.
>>
>> > > Yeah, although reading about him being punched out by Sam was pretty
>> > > satisfying.
>>
>> > Absolutely. My guess is that we see this guy again, preferably in a
>> > Braavosi slave market or something satisfying like that.
>>
>> Bahahahaha! "He's very stringy."
>
>Didn't Arya kill him? The night before she 'went blind'?
Oh yeah. "He was killed by Arya Stark."
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>> How much you want to bet Theon survives, but nobody, including him,
>> knows it's Theon? �I think he's utterly destroyed mentally, and nobody
>> but nobody gives a damn either way.
>>
>> Except then why would he get a POV chapter? �That's my only problem
>> with the idea.
>
>No fun there. Theon deserves to be humiliated and destroyed, but if he
>doesn't know himself, then it lessens the pain. No, he will know who
>he is, but anybody else who does doesn't give a shit! Sad that this is
>something I am looking so forward to.
Hmm, I may have to respectfully disagree. But I don't know how, so
I'll just babble a bit.
If Theon's brief takeover of Winterfell showed us nothing else, it
showed us that Theon is completely out of touch with reality. When he
lost the Stark boys, he killed a woman he'd shagged and cut her kids'
heads off and tarred them to pretend they were Bran and Rickon, and
*he blamed the woman*.
I think turning into Reek is the only way he can collapse and begin
blaming himself. He's somebody else, so it's okay to be all his fault.
But that doesn't mean we miss out on the fun - his denial can't
possibly work out for him. It's a point-of-view chapter, after all.
Sooner or later something has to give, and I want to be there when it
happens. And hopefully there will be a heap of flaying and squealing
in the meantime.
>> Didn't Arya kill him? �The night before she 'went blind'? �Speaking of
>> whom, didn't Ned once say something about a wolf alone dies, while the
>> pack survives? �Who is our favorite lone wolf? �Which audience is in
>> for another death of one of its favorite characters?
>
>Did she? I remember her running into him and that actually does sound
>familiar come to think of it. Very frustrating having these
>discussions and not remembering the details. Not enough to go back and
>re-read for the fourth time yet, though...
Yar, I remember now too. Over the weeks, the Faceless Priest asked her
"who are you" and she would answer "nobody". Then when he said a body
had been fished out of the canal or something, and asked her who
killed him ... did she say "nobody", or "Arya Stark"? I don't remember
the exact scene, but it was cool.
And then the next day, she woke up and she was blinded. Either
punishment or (more likely) the next level of her training because
she'd given the right Zen-answer.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>> > Yes, very Martin, and it sure doesn't appear that Robert has any more
>> > purpose in the story other than to create this controversy, so it
>> > would seem to be inevitable.
>>
>> As Brick Top once said, "you're not much good to me alive, are you?" I
>> do wonder what his purpose would be, or his place in the story should
>> he survive.
>
>Don't know the reference. Googling didn't help me much.
"Snatch". The movie. It's a classic. You want to see "Snatch", and
also "Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels", if you haven't seen them.
Same director is apparently also doing that new "Sherlock Holmes"
movie that's coming out soon. Could be worth seeing.
>> Frankly, I'm hoping Sansa does something to make him have Seizure #O,
Heh, funky. That was meant to be the Greek letter omega. And it was,
when I typed it.
>> if you know what I mean. That would be a good step in the right
>> direction for her.
>>
>Agreed, she needs to learn the art of cold-blooded bitch, because she
>is never going to learn the art of cunning manipulator.
She's got a lot of flossy-headed optimistic na�vete to get over.
Cersei and Littlefinger have both helped her with that, as did Sandor
Clegane. But she's got a way to go.
A lot of people seem confident that she will become some sort of
tactical mastermind and retake Winterfell and be the last Stark
standing at the end of the story. I only wish I knew where they were
buying their optimism, so I could go and shop there myself.
>> Yeah, sooner or later he'll just have too many watermelons in the air
>> and they'll all come raining down and I want to be there with a smile
>> on my face when it happens.
>
>Agreed completely, though I wonder how late in the game that will be.
>Many of his plans need to come to fruition first, I think, so we can
>see the pride before the fall.
Well, yeah. His machinations make for a fun read. He's one of the few
real schemers in the series.
>Let's not go there. Just got another update from Amazon saying October
>2010, might as well be 20010 for believability.
Heh, wasn't it meant to be October 2009?
Where's that betting pool thread? Stupid book was meant to be
mostly-finished four years ago.
>Agreed, including such unknown notables as Benjen Stark and a few
>others whose mystery remains unsolved (Davos the Onion Knight?)
Yeah. Meant to be dead, my arse. Although owing to the parallel
narrative, Davos could have been dead at the end of A Feast for Crows
and then still be alive at the beginning of the next one. This leaves
us with the whole book to read, wondering when, or if, it's going to
happen, how it will happen and whether the truncated-finger hand was a
clever fake.
As for Benjen, I thought he was Coldhands? But certainly still a
mystery to solve there.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> 2. Crannogman, at least I think that's how it's spelled. It's not crab
> man, though. That sounds like the headliner at the Monster Matinee.
Crab People!
Although Renly is a far more likely suspect for that sort of thing.
> Tyrion was Tywin Lanister's son, for all that Tywin wished he wasn't.
> Varys really couldn't expect things to go quite so wrong between them
> that Tyrion might not tell Tywin some of his games.
I don't doubt that Varys recognised Tyrion as the only worthwhile
Lannister. Somebody in this story has to have half a brain. And it's
also pretty clear that Varys saw no real harm in telling Tyrion about
his loss of manhood. I mean, what was the worst that could happen?
Tyrion (in an outrageous breach of character) tells the entire court
how Varys lost his goolies, and everybody a) laughs behind their hands
at Varys and b) laughs directly in Tyrion's face for believing such a
hocus-pocus story and swapping penis-anecdotes with the court eunuch.
There wasn't much in there for anyone to use (as I believe the shaman
who neutered Varys in the first place was heard to remark), and it had
the right level of olde-worlde mysticism to interest Tyrion without
him necessarily giving it much thought.
At best, I would say this was just a way for Varys to let something
off his own chest, as it were, and maybe later on he will be able to
capitalise on the shared confidence to befriend Tyrion once more.
Not saying there's necessarily any more to it than that. But you know
how sarcasm and thaeries begin to intertwine when Varys and Rhaegar
get involved.
What? No, Rhaegar wasn't involved. Or *was* he?
> I think Varys was
> playing Tyrion just like he played everybody else. What better way to
> have a hold over Tyrion than the set-up with Shae that he arranged?
We're talking about the reasons Varys may have had for telling Tyrion
about his eunification.
What are you talking about?
Plus, how much of "the set-up with Shae" do you think Varys arranged
anyway? Do you mean the fact that Tyrion brought Shae to King's
Landing and Varys helped set her up as a servant so she wouldn't be
found out?
He never really used any of that, did he? Unless you also think he
then turned Shae in to Cersei and Tywin. And possibly drugged her and
put her in Tywin's bed with his chain of office around her neck. And
gave Tywin a laxative so he would be in the shitter at the exact
moment Tyrion decided to take a detour and visit him with a crossbow.
And also, Rhaegar. And Wylla.
> >> This takes us into slippery territory, of course, where Varys
> >> masterminded the beginning, middle and end of Tyrion's downfall right
> >> down to the sordid little details of Shae turning up in Tywin's
> >> bedchamber. I don't believe that for a moment,
Maybe I should have highlighted this bit where I said I didn't believe
it for a moment...
> >> but like you said:
> >> Varys is a guy who can see what he wants, and then make sure it
> >> happens. He undoubtedly knew that once Tyrion was blamed for killing
> >> Joffrey and Cersei was convinced (and how couldn't she be, with the
> >> valonqar prophecy eating a hole in her already quite drafty mind?),
> >> the resulting court case would be a miscarriage of justice worthy of
> >> Melisandre and her shadow-assassin-placenta-monster of doom.
>
> >I think this might not be so farfetched. Who knew the secret passages
> >in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
> >Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
> >Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys. Even if he
> >did not organize the frame, he certainly took part in it and
> >understood its value. And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
>
> Ok, I think you guys are making this overly complicated.
I don't think we're making it complicated enough!
You know the guy who cut off Varys's bits and tried to use them to
summon a demon? Melisandre's dad. And the demon he summoned was
Melisandre's mum. Varys passed out after he heard the voice say
something, but he missed the main act. The demon might have had a
masculine voice, but that doesn't mean anything.
> I think the
> Tyrell women managed the poisoning of Joffery, and bless their little
> Highgarden hearts, too; but no one, not Varys or the Queen of Thorns
> could plan for Joff to leave his seat and run down to where Tyrion was
> sitting just after they poisoned the wine. I think it was a stroke of
> luck for them, and they steadfastly kept the finger of blame pointed
> towards Tyrion once the chance arose.
Of course. Whoever did it wasn't about to stand up and say, "don't
blame Tyrion, I did it really. Oh, and my name's not Brian, put me
back on the cross."
But, like I originally said, once Tyrion was blamed for killing
Joffrey, Varys had to know the sentencing would be a giant
all-holes-plugged Clusterfuck of Justice worthy of RedTube.
> We also know that Littlefinger made the poison available to the ladies
> Tyrell, and that he nudged Joff towards having the dwarf and pig act
> at the wedding, so I wonder if he was the architect behind Tyrion
> getting blamed. He wanted Sansa, and having her married to Tyrion was
> an impediment to his plans for her.
That's true, though. Varys diddling from one side, Littlefinger
twiddling from the other, and the result is a mind-blowing orgasm of
conspiracy ... worthy of RedTube!
> >I can relate, though as said previously I find the necessary
> >ingredients for a rational conversation (two rational people at least)
> >increasingly difficult to procure. Tyrion does seem to have the
> >ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
> >intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
> >talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
> >Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen. It seems hard to believe that
> >a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
> >money in the first place...
I think Tywin, Jaime and Cersei were just thre more in a long line of
pissing it up the wall that the Lannister family had done with their
fabulous gold, including Granddaddy Lannister with his bleeding heart
and whoring problem.
> Weren't their gold mines on the Lannister lands?
Whose? The Lannisters'? Yes, I imagine they were.
Wait. Is that a mis-spelling of "there"? Because if it is, I want you
to make up some sort of brilliant cover-story to convince me that you
really meant "their".
> >No, that one is certainly orchestrated, though whether anybody thought
> >she could bring them to live seems dubious. Seems more like it would
> >be immensely valuable and moreso in the hands of a Targaryen (and
> >therefore presumably legitimate), something she (or Viserys as you
> >prefer) could use to make deals.
>
> You know, Illyrio makes a passing reference to the Red priests. I've
> always wondered if he and Varys were devotees to another sect of that
> religion.
We know Varys has a direct connection to them, assuming that his first
interactions with their representatives didn't sour him completely.
> If all the followers of R'llor know and/or believe in the
> prophecy of Azor Ahai, they may also have different candidates for who
> fulfills the prophecy. So, I'm thinking perhaps Varys and Illyrio are
> backing Dany for Azor Ahai.
Well, obviously. Which is why I said it a few posts ago:
> Maybe they were operating from the same prophecy that Melisandre
> got about the stone dragons awakening with sacrifice, but got it
> far closer to the mark?
Makes sense to me.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>> >Flashing me back. Dany and a few others do have memories of Rhaegar's
>> >encounter with Lyanna (which I think most likely led to Jon Snow),
>> >which would provide another option (other than the Crab-Man, who
>> >apparently is the only one to know Jon's real story who is still
>> >alive).
>>
>> 1. Dany had yet to be born when Rhaegar and Lyanna "encountered".
>
>My time frame must be messed up. I thought that Rhaegar raped Lyanna
>not long before Robert et. al. went to war with him. However this must
>be right considering that Jon Snow is older than Dany is. Thanks for
>the correction, Penelope.
The scene where he gave her the blue rose at the jousting tournament
was somewhere before that, and lends some sorry-arse credence to the
possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were genuinely in wuv, this
triggering the world's most convoluted and prolonged fake-out in the
name of perpetuating a plotline worthy of Days Of Our Lives.
>> 2. Crannogman, at least I think that's how it's spelled. It's not crab
>> man, though. That sounds like the headliner at the Monster Matinee.
>
>Yeah, but Crabman sounds better. Or Frog-sucker, something like that.
>Still curious why this guy hasn't made any kind of appearance, while
>his kids have been so prominent. I guess when he does appear he will
>have some good stuff, yet another thing to wait for...
I can't help but hope (for the sake of what I think is a boring and
pointless "twist") that he has nothing useful to say at all. But his
reminiscence of the time he and Ned killed a bunch of guys might be
fun.
I just have to give Martin the benefit of the doubt on this.
>> Tyrion was Tywin Lanister's son, for all that Tywin wished he wasn't.
>> Varys really couldn't expect things to go quite so wrong between them
>> that Tyrion might not tell Tywin some of his games. I think Varys was
>> playing Tyrion just like he played everybody else. What better way to
>> have a hold over Tyrion than the set-up with Shae that he arranged?
>
>Sure, I don't think Varys was actually trying to make friends, but the
>point was whether or not he was telling the truth, for once. And I
>agree with Chucky's perspective that he was (or at least might have
>been). The truth can often help along a plan as well as deception.
There are some who contend that Varys *never* actually tells lies.
This might be something for us to look out for during our re-read and
re-CHOW.
>Sure, but it just seems to be something that works so much in Varys'
>favor (in his over-arching plan, assuming that is what I think it is)
>that it is unlikely he didn't have his hand in it. Admittedly there is
>no evidence of this, so far.
An overwhelming lack of evidence never stopped a good thaery.
>Pretty strong foresight though to know that she ever would have the
>dragons alive, unless (and this is probably the case) they knew a lot
>that we don't know.
Varys had the experience with the fire demon that he related to
Tyrion. He may have known (as others did) that the magic was ebbing
and flowing. This may have been a clue to him that the dragons were
dormant now, but may not always be.
If he followed the Red God's prophecy of the royal sacrifice bringing
dragons forth from stones, then all the more likely he knew that the
eggs could one day hatch.
They were just waiting for the right time and place and the right
magical conditions. In the meantime, they're just highly expensive
gemstones so why not use them to advantage?
>Yeah, but what is Littlefinger's plan on taking advantage of all this?
>He is in no position to take anything over himself, and he seems to be
>chiefly interested in his own position, unlike Varys who is
>representing someone else. It doesn't take a mastermind to understand
>that Cersei would fuck everything up, but Littlefinger is not really
>involved in that at all, dealing with a whole different ball of wax.
>Who would the new ruler be, if Littlefinger had his way?
I don't think he sees himself as king material. If he owns Winterfell,
the Vale, the Riverlands and a little Tully all of his own, he'll be
happy. This rather depends on ingratiating himself with a whole lot of
Lords, taking over a whole lot of places as the war gradually empties
them, and being in favour with whoever ends up on the Iron Throne. I
think Littlefinger can just about manage this, at least until somebody
finally cuts his balls off and stuffs them in his mouth and throws
him, screaming muffledly, out of the Goddamn Moon Window.
>Yeah, Dacey was the daughter, and she was killed. I was thinking of
>her mother, Jorah's sister Maege, who is still holed up on Bear
>Island. That was the whole conversation abou Jorah not being able to
>afford his sister, tied back to Dany...
Ah, memories.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<mha...@nanc.com> wrote:
>...but this part of this conversation is really repulsive. I'm just
>sayin'
It's the ultimate trump card Martin seems to use when he wants to
degrade a female character and make a male character look evil. I just
don't think it would do much good to try it on Cersei, because her own
evil can match it easily.
No sarcastic rejoinder from me, at least for now. I quite agree with
you.
C&J
Will in New Haven
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:42:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this, thinking back to some
> > > of the thousand-post, thousand-line threads I've helped create over
> > > the years. To me, there is no limit.
>
> > We might test that theory. I just finished up in school and am killing
> > time trying to get over writer's block. This dialogue has been quite
> > useful in that pursuit.
>
> I'm still shaking the rust off over here. It's good to encounter
> somebody with an attention-span. Penelope and Will do their best,
> bless 'em, but Penelope and I seem to be unable to get into a good
> fight (she's distressingly rational and intelligent, by which I mean
> she agrees with most of my views), and Will ... Well, he's got more
> important things to do, like get in front of people in supermarket
> lines, drive really slowly in the overtaking lane, count out pennies
> to pay for his bus ticket, and sit on his rocking chair and grumble
> about the state of today's youth.
I don't do the shopping, haven't driven since 1980 and today's youth
was fine when she and I got out of bed this morning. I don't know what
_tomorrow's_ youth will be like, assuming today's youth doesn't come
back. Which is distressingly likely. But none out of three improves
your average.
I snipped the rest because it wasn't interesting, ie it wasn't about
me.
--
Will in New Haven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu2VkoRIbG0&feature=PlayList&p=BF1B6FC2E80A69A4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=29&shuffle=4853
> read more »
Ben
wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:42:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm still shaking the rust off over here. It's good to encounter
> somebody with an attention-span. Penelope and Will do their best,
> bless 'em, but Penelope and I seem to be unable to get into a good
> fight (she's distressingly rational and intelligent, by which I mean
> she agrees with most of my views), and Will ... Well, he's got more
> important things to do, like get in front of people in supermarket
> lines, drive really slowly in the overtaking lane, count out pennies
> to pay for his bus ticket, and sit on his rocking chair and grumble
> about the state of today's youth.
>
Chucky vs. Ilya, though I agree Penelope is disturbingly rational. As
we have recently seen, she also appears to have a very strong memory
of the books, which I clearly have shown I do not possess.
>
> > None of my friends are
> > literate enough to understand or talk about aSoIaF, and would be quite
> > mystified by a discussion of literature of any kind. So unlikely that
> > you'll find me unwilling (though perhaps unable) to comment or address
> > points brought up.
>
> Ah, a brain-starved student with nothing but time on his hands. Of
> such things are AFGRRM legends made. Now if we can just get into an
> all-in, gloves-off, foam-spraying screaming match about something.
>
Interestingly enough, the student aspect is a renewal. I was out of
school for ten years then went back to get my Master's Degree, so I am
not exactly a young pup myself. I am sure we will find something to
argue about sooner or later. Mayhap I shall send you some of my short
fiction. I understand you are a savage critic. Gonna be hard to find
something to argue about strongly when the source material has been
discussed already at such lengths.
>
> Did I mean Ashara Dayne, anyway? I think I didn't mean Ashara Dayne at
> all. Because she was meant to be the one who Ned was in love with, and
> who conveniently committed suicide so nobody could ask her about where
> Jon Snow came from.
>
Yeah, Ashara Dayne was supposedly Ned's (why is he not Ed? always
wondered that, anyway) lover who birthed Jon Snow. I was just
verifying this and saw that her body was never recovered. Any chance
she might still be alive? Seems like a long time to disappear,
though...
> Rhaegar's wife was ... Elara? Something like that? As I recall, she
> was put very gently and humanely out of her misery by Gregor "(Really)
> Big Softie" Clegane.
>
Elia Martell of course, which explains the Martell's hostility toward
the current regime until this day. I also believe that the Dornish
have been involved (specifically Doran Martell, whose son Quentyn (?)
is still unaccounted for across the ocean) in a lot of the anti-
Lannister plotting, I believe their representative may even be the
third of the conspirators (Varys, Illyrio, & ...) for the Targaryen
return. Quentin and Doran are definitely up to their necks in some
sort of plan we don't know yet. The Sand Serpents are notably unaware
of this plan, from what we have read.
>
> Well, as Penny pointed out it was a vision, specifically, that
> Danaerys has of Rhaegar and the wolf-girl, or at least she had a
> vision of Rhaegar and it triggers a memory of someone (was it Viserys?
> Or Jorah?) telling her about how Rhaegar had kicked arse at jousting
> and gave the rose to Lyanna instead of his wife-to-be.
>
Thank you, the vision was what I was thinking of, not the actual
memory. These two aspects you mentioned are probably the best evidence
for the Jon Snow as Rhaegar-Lyanna's offspring.
>
> Howland Reed of Greywater Watch, the Fabulous Frog Eater of Many
> Secrets (the frogs he eats, that is, not the secrets although he could
> very well eat them as well). Also known as the Basil Exposition of the
> Song of Ice and Fire saga.
>
> A very Martinesque choice of Basils, given that we've never seen him
> or heard anything from him first-hand, and yet he probably knows
> everything (including how he and Ned managed to depopulate an entire
> tower all by themselves and make everyone believe a non-pregnant woman
> was pregnant retroactively for nine months, and a pregnant woman look
> non-pregnant over the same period. I'm guessing a coathanger and a
> flux capacitor were needed) and as soon as we *do* see him, he'll
> probably choke to death on a frog bone before he can say anything
> remotely useful.
>
I agree that Martin is not the author to have Reed jump out and
explain everything, therefore justifying the claims of Snow on the
crown, etc. I wonder whether he will reveal anything to the readers,
but I agree that he probably won't ever reveal anything useful to
those who can make use of it. As for the tower issue, that still bears
a lot of explanation. Would seem there would be plenty of people that
would know what happened there, though nearly all of those people
would probably be dead at this point they would have been around to
tell the tale for a long time before the recent carnage.
> > What you made me think of when I read this was Viserys as Rhaegar's
> > "girlfriend" ala prison girlfriend, which would have been quite
> > appropriate, though if he were a girl he probably would not have been
> > so much of a cunt (ironically).
>
> And then every time he failed to get pregnant, Rhaegar would beat him.
>
> Although if he *did* get pregnant, I imagine he'd give birth to
> something a little like Joffrey Baratheon.
>
Well, you would at least have the semi-noble Rhaegar as one parent (do
we have any negative views of Rhaegar in the series? I can't think of
one). Joffrey had no such luck. Now if Cersei had taken to bonking
Tyrion, then...
>
> > > Yep, and the situation was such that he did seem to be confiding. I
> > > mean, I can't see that it would benefit him in any way, the way a lot
> > > of his other prattling does. When he deals with idiots, he can titter
> > > into his scented handkerchiefs all he likes, but he recognised Tyrion
> > > as a smart guy.
>
> > And perhaps as someone who could understand the depth of his work?
>
> Someone who, in the fullness of time, might be convinced to see that
> getting rid of the Lannisters and putting the Targaryens back on the
> throne was the right call?
>
> Hmm, maybe going too far. At least until the final few pages of Storm
> of Swords, Tyrion was still pretty loyal to his family for some
> bizarre, probably-psychological reason. Varys wouldn't have been able
> to foresee that coming to an end, although he may have known more
> about Tyrion's history than he let on. In fact that much is almost
> certain.
>
I agree here. Realistically, Tyrion is still very attached to the
family, or would be if they allowed him to. My guess is if it came
down to it he still would support Jaime or Kevan or any of the
remotely sane Lannisters (even with Jaime's involvement in the
prostitute wife affair). The patricide had been a loooooong time
coming, and Varys (presumably) had to put lots of nails in the coffin
to ensure it happened.
> But certainly he would have seen in Tyrion a kindred smarmy-pants.
>
That at the very least.
> > Tyrion has long been a behind the scenes guy himself, notably
> > vulnerable to the one thing that Varys could not possibly be (lacking
> > the equipment), but otherwise Tyrion is someone that could appreciate
> > some of the machinations Varys has put in play.
>
> Not while they were machinations at the expense of his family ...
> until now. Now, I think he'll be all about the machinations at the
> expense of his family.
>
I disagree, I think even though he dislikes the remainder of his
family, he will still find it quite distasteful to work against them.
I am very curious as to what he will be doing and thinking with
Illyrio (from the preview chapter).
>
> I don't know how much of it Varys *made happen*, but I can see him
> watching it begin, and then helping it along any way he could. It's
> really just a slightly more violent form of sowing discontent and then
> headhunting useful people from among the ranks of the enemy. Happens
> everywhere.
>
And nobody, not even Littlefinger, seems to do it with the skill and
foresight that Varys does. He creates opportunities, but also takes
advantage of the opportunities that present themselves.
>
> Jaime, Cersei and Tywin need to die first. If they can do so over the
> course of the next two books, in a process involving paper cuts, so
> much the better.
>
One down, and Cersei seems to be a sure bet to follow, though with
Martin at the helm she might very well lurk around as some vengeful
shadow (like Catelyn) before her end. Though I join you in the hopes,
I think that Jaime will be back, humbled and in position to finally
redeem himself by saving the day. Just might sacrifice himself in so
doing, which I would be okay with, but I doubt it.
>
> > Who knew the secret passages
> > in the Red keep? Who would be the best suited to frame Tyrion for
> > Joffrey's murder? I still think this was orchestrated by the Queen of
> > Thorns, but it certainly could be helped along by Varys.
>
> He testified against Tyrion, in his own way. And certainly the Tyrells
> weren't going to step in and say "you've got the wrong man". But I
> don't think Varys would have done much more than that. It would have
> been too difficult to control what happened to Tyrion should he be
> found guilty.
>
> > Even if he did not organize the frame, he certainly took
> > part in it and understood its value.
>
Agreed, I think this is one of the opportunities that presented
itself, rather than one he created. But I certainly think he helped.
> He probably knew Oberyn was in King's Landing looking for vengeance,
> since justice seemed out of the question. He may have been able to
> predict that Tyrion would be okay, at least until the fight between
> Oberyn and Gregor was over. And then he could have helped Jaime to
> bust him out.
>
Almost certainly that latter, as Jaime doesn't sound like a secret
passage guy. Betting the odds on Oberyn vs. Grego wouldn't have taken
a genius either, as he was just looking for an excuse.
> But so much of this would have been beyond his ability to control.
> We'll see, I suppose, if another re-read and re-CHOW makes it seem
> otherwise. But for the moment I'm happy to think Varys assisted Tyrion
> where he could, and was probably happy with the way the retard sheep
> of the Lannister family ostracised the lone goat ... but beyond that,
> I fall into sarcasm territory.
>
Okay, but I wouldn't be surprised to find he was even more involved
than this. Moot point, though, as this is something I can't see Martin
taking the time to explain. He'll leave that to use, I am sure.
> > And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
>
> It smells of Tywin being a giant hypocritical cunt, is what it smells
> like.
>
Nah, I think the whole chain of office around the neck, lying in bed
thing was very non Tywin. Cersei maybe, but Tywin didn't soil himself
with that kind of thing (ironic considering his end).
> > Tyrion does seem to have the
> > ability to communicate to everyone at all levels of maturity and/or
> > intelligence (witness the Vale barbarians). Probably his greatest
> > talent, and I wonder if similar talent in the genes was the reason the
> > Lannisters were such shrewd businessmen.
>
> Could be. I seem to recall that Tywin's sister had it too. She was
> married to a halfwit, but she manages to give Jaime a talking-to when
> she sees him. She seems OK.
>
I agree, seems the most sensible of all the Lannisters, so of course
she was banished to live with the Freys (the Martin balance). Would
have been better off with her running the show, for certain.
> > It seems hard to believe that
> > a tightass cunt like Tywin actually made the deals to get all that
> > money in the first place...
>
> Nah, he definitely inherited all his money. Whatever cash Granddaddy
> Lannister left behind him in the cloud of loving, happy peasants and
> hookers.
>
Yeah, but the genes were there, for Auntie Genna and Tyrion, and
perhaps uncle Kevan as well.
>
> That seemed to be the intent of them, although it was stated early on
> in the story that the eggs were really enormously valuable, and
> couldn't be usefully traded for anything. An army, perhaps, or a fleet
> of ships. In the end, of course, Danaerys trades a live dragon and
> then backsies it. Heh.
>
> "Hey, no backsies! Argh, my epidermis!"
>
Heh, heh. I think that one of the best things about Daenerys is that
she is only honest when she feels it is necessary. Like all of the
great aSoIaF characters (at least the living ones), she is not heroic
or noble but practical.
>
> > Agreed. I am very curious whether Dany will (in the seventh book or
> > whenever she finally makes it back over to Westeros) have to fight her
> > way through Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell/Iron Islanders etc. or if it
> > will be more prudent to have her head straight north.
>
> I think she'll arrive and find everybody dead. And then shrug to
> herself and go to kill the Others and marry Jon or whatever.
>
If everybody is dead, how to explain Jon? Stannis and his group will
be dead, and nearly all of the Brothers (except Dolorous Edd, who just
can't die, ever). But I am guessing that the battling kings will still
be going at it even with the threat of the Others. Also it seems
unlikely they will find their way past the wall, as really without
that they should be able to march right on down to King's Landing
without too much trouble. Though that would support your everyone dead
theory...
>
> I really doubt the horn is going to work that way. In fact, didn't
> someone blow it already? For some reason I had this idea that someone
> blew the horn and that was what woke the Others up in the first place.
> Or something the Wildlings did woke them up.
>
I think when they found it the Others woke up. What was the deal with
the Iron Islander's Horn? And the horn that Sam has in Oldtown that
Jon found? Will the horn even matter?
> The horn will only bring down the Wall in some lame, metaphorical way
> that Martin will make neat somehow.
>
This makes me think that maybe it will be the end of the Black
Brotherhood, which would be convenient in allowing Jon to resume his
rightful (?) position without discoloring his stainless honor. This
also would being a metaphorical "bringing down the Wall" though I
agree that Martin will find a way to make it neater than I have
proposed here.
> > Viserys would have been just as unsuitable as Dany was, but they would
> > have murdered him for the attempt. Considering the birthing method,
> > unlikely Viserys COULD have birthed the dragons, and impossible that
> > he WOULD have.
>
> Although it's funny how close to the mark some of those nutty
> Targaryen kings got. Burning themselves in an attempt to turn into
> dragons.
>
They didn't think to have one of their girls do it, though.
Interesting considering how important the female Targaryens were, rare
as the notable ones were. I wonder if one of the men would have walked
into the fire with an egg, would they have spawned a dragon?
>
> > Could just as easily be my mistake, but I seem to remember Belwas and
> > Ser Barristan saving her from a Faceless Man. I could also be mixing
> > this up with Arya, though.
>
> Robert authorised a Faceless Man to kill Danaerys, but did we ever see
> it get close to her?
>
In retrospect, I think not, though at some point I will have to re-
read as this issue bugs me.
>
> Cersei makes some remark about Littlefinger not caring about anything,
> and only asking them to send him some tapestries he left behind. This
> was such a nonsensical message for him to send, and Cersei was so
> stupidly dismissive of it, that I can't help but think the tapestries
> were of enormous importance.
>
I think these were the tapestries that Jon Arryn wanted, the ones that
somehow or other spelled out the Baratheon genes, basically verifying
that Cersei's kids were not Robert's. Unless there is something more?
> Littlefinger probably wanted them sent to him so he could use them
> later, and he didn't want Cersei randomly burning them on her
> self-destructive Regentzilla rampage.
>
Definitely, she burned down the Tower of the Hand, who knows what
might be next?
>
> Varys seems to have other motives than pure self-improvement, although
> the truth is we've seen literally none of them and everything is
> guesswork at this point. Littlefinger at least has a case of the Bad
> Guy Monologues with Sansa while he's petting her, so we sort of know
> what he's about.
>
> Although even that could be a lie ... but from what we know of his
> past and his character, he's probably in it for himself.
>
I think no matter how many irons he has in the fire, Littlefinger is
definitely in it for himself.
>
> Yup. Not sure who is still around after the Red Wedding. None of the
> point of view characters in the latest book seemed to give much of a
> shit about it.
>
They certainly aren't in the position to do anything, though
considering a lot of their armies are still around, essentially just
the leadership was killed. Find the right combination of younger sons
and nephews, etc. and you might have another army in the North, if
necessary.
>
> > This post has gotten long enough. Save that for my psychiatrist (as
> > soon as I can afford one!)
>
> This newsgroup is a cheap alternative.
>
Indeed.
>
> Jaime was all for declaring themselves openly, with the staggeringly
> dodgy claim "if it was okay for the Targaryens, it's okay for us."
>
> There's a slogan. Worthy of a re-write to the Lannister Family Words,
> I reckon.
>
Except pretty clearly the rest of the Lannisters seem at least to not
support it. Tywin definitely knew about it, as well as presumably his
brother and probably Auntie Genna, but they don't seem to approve,
just too much to lose if they called them on it.
>
> Yeah, a lot of this stuff is happening to Jaime already. But I think
> the whole sequence where she is locked up, scourged, basically reduced
> to a starving sleep-deprived nobody without power or dignity by the
> High Sparrow (who I still half-hope is Varys in disguise, or possibly
> Wylla), is a great start. What does she care about, other than
> herself? Nothing. So what does she have? Her looks, her power, her sex
> appeal. Almost all of this is going to suffer in her current
> circumstances, particularly her power. She's never had anyone tell her
> what to do before, or treat her as if she were less important than
> someone else. Robert was the last to do that, and to a lesser degree
> her father, and she hated Robert and declared herself greater and
> smarter and more ferocious than Tywin.
>
> So yeah, this is perfectly poetic, and I look forward to seeing it
> continue.
>
Yeah, I think we are just seeing the beginning for Cersei.
>
> I'm thinking more like the High Sparrow kicking that whole hornet's
> nest apart, Qyburn running away, and Cersei being forced to bunk with
> a whole heap of her vivisected former friends who chew her skin off.
>
Ewww, nice imagery. Are any of them (besides Gregor) still alive? I
can't imagine...
>
> Yep. If you can't bend, you break. Stannis, I think, has already
> broken, but he's not dead yet.
>
Metaphysically, dead inside for sure, but that appears to be his
normal condition. Stannis is a lot more Stark-like than Baratheon.
Interesting that in such a flamboyant family he would turn out so
austere.
>
> Of course, Danaerys has already proven just how much her blood can
> achieve in a fire-sacrifice situation. I doubt Melisandre would have
> been able to do anything more impressive with it.
>
If she would have been able to do something similar, I think that
would be plenty! But she was literally trying to awaken dragons carved
out of stone, which doesn't seem likely no matter what the blood.
>
> > I sincerely hope we can trust Martin to surprise us.
> > After ten years of waiting, he's had plenty of time to come up with
> > something surprising, hasn't he?
>
> You'd think so, wouldn't you? Me, I'm not going to expect too much.
>
I may be crazy, but I still have very high hopes for the series
redeeming itself. I think that Feast for Crows was a dud, and I think
that Martin realized that as well. I really do believe that he had
Dance half-way finished, but scrapped it because it was shit. I think
he has had to rethink everything, which accounts for it taking so
long. It may be pipe dreams, but I think that Martin recognizes this
is the defining moment of his legacy, and he does not want to fuck it
up like Jordan did. I really anticipate something special with the
next book. Now if it is not stellar on the level of the first two
books, then I hold out zero hope for the series, as we certainly can't
wait ten years for each book and have them continue to decline in
quality each time. Besides that Martin is very unlikely to live
another 20 years. Oh, and the world will be ending on December 21,
2012 anyway, so it doesn't really matter...<g>
Ben
Ben
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:57:03 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> The scene where he gave her the blue rose at the jousting tournament
> was somewhere before that, and lends some sorry-arse credence to the
> possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were genuinely in wuv, this
> triggering the world's most convoluted and prolonged fake-out in the
> name of perpetuating a plotline worthy of Days Of Our Lives.
>
still a fairly mysterious character also, as all we get are stories of
him being heroic, but none from anybody that actually knew him. Those
that knew Lyanna are also pretty much dead.
> >Yeah, but Crabman sounds better. Or Frog-sucker, something like that.
> >Still curious why this guy hasn't made any kind of appearance, while
> >his kids have been so prominent. I guess when he does appear he will
> >have some good stuff, yet another thing to wait for...
>
> I can't help but hope (for the sake of what I think is a boring and
> pointless "twist") that he has nothing useful to say at all. But his
> reminiscence of the time he and Ned killed a bunch of guys might be
> fun.
>
> I just have to give Martin the benefit of the doubt on this.
>
This is the one thing that I think he won't talk about, off-screen or
not, though I agree it would be interesting to hear someone
objective's opinion of what happened in Robert's revolt, other than
the King's Landing stuff we know pretty well. I would love to have
Martin pull something unconventional on this and not do a conventional
exposition, but I don't know what other options there are.
>
> There are some who contend that Varys *never* actually tells lies.
> This might be something for us to look out for during our re-read and
> re-CHOW.
>
On that note, any more of these on the horizon? I am getting crazy and
thinking about doing another one.
>
> Varys had the experience with the fire demon that he related to
> Tyrion. He may have known (as others did) that the magic was ebbing
> and flowing. This may have been a clue to him that the dragons were
> dormant now, but may not always be.
>
I often think that if anybody knows anything, that means that Varys
knows it too. He doesn't seem to be unaware of just about anything.
> If he followed the Red God's prophecy of the royal sacrifice bringing
> dragons forth from stones, then all the more likely he knew that the
> eggs could one day hatch.
>
With his connections across the sea (which seems to be the Red God's
stronger area), I would think this would be an outside bet (else why
would Varys have not helped the Targaryens do it earlier?), but
something worth trying to get them back in power.
> They were just waiting for the right time and place and the right
> magical conditions. In the meantime, they're just highly expensive
> gemstones so why not use them to advantage?
>
Absolutely. At the worst, Dany could trade them for armies or fleets
of ships, and I think that Varys believes as Viserys did that if a
legitimate Targaryen returned at the head of a force, with a very
questionable claim of legitimacy in the Lannister kids, they would get
plenty of support from the Westerosi nobility, particularly the
Dornish and perhaps many other dispossessed people who remember things
more fondly than they actually were.
>
> I don't think he sees himself as king material. If he owns Winterfell,
> the Vale, the Riverlands and a little Tully all of his own, he'll be
> happy. This rather depends on ingratiating himself with a whole lot of
> Lords, taking over a whole lot of places as the war gradually empties
> them, and being in favour with whoever ends up on the Iron Throne. I
> think Littlefinger can just about manage this, at least until somebody
> finally cuts his balls off and stuffs them in his mouth and throws
> him, screaming muffledly, out of the Goddamn Moon Window.
>
But I still wonder who Littlefinger wants to be running the show. As
you say, he would prefer to be in favor, but what candidates is he
close to? Baby Robert is barely the Vale ruler, Sansa is at the best a
potential spouse for the King, assuming all the Stark boys are dead
(which they are not of course). I just can't visualize his endgame.
Pretty much whoever wins the Throne is going to see him as a problem,
not as any kind of ally, unless he does a lot between now and then.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > The scene where he gave her the blue rose at the jousting tournament
> > was somewhere before that, and lends some sorry-arse credence to the
> > possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were genuinely in wuv, this
> > triggering the world's most convoluted and prolonged fake-out in the
> > name of perpetuating a plotline worthy of Days Of Our Lives.
>
> We never get to see how Lyanna really feels about anything. Rhaegar is
> still a fairly mysterious character also, as all we get are stories of
> him being heroic, but none from anybody that actually knew him. Those
> that knew Lyanna are also pretty much dead.
Indeed. There are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of reflection through
third parties who we can't be sure are telling the truth or
remembering everything properly.
We're left hoping for full disclosure from The Crab-Man of Greywater
Watch, some sort of surprise revelation from Barristan Selmy, or a
vision in the fires of R'hllor that makes the whole damn thing make
sense. I personally am not holding my breath, although I'm sure sooner
or later we'll get some sort of answers that will be enough to satisfy
the cow-eyed cud-sucking DOOLtards of the Jon Targaryen camp. I just
don't think it's ever going to be enough to make me think it was a
cool idea or an interesting twist. It's just lame, basically.
> This is the one thing that I think he won't talk about, off-screen or
> not, though I agree it would be interesting to hear someone
> objective's opinion of what happened in Robert's revolt, other than
> the King's Landing stuff we know pretty well. I would love to have
> Martin pull something unconventional on this and not do a conventional
> exposition, but I don't know what other options there are.
Darn right. It's not as if Jon is going to go there and have Howland
Reed go, "Ah, you. I was wondering when you would walk in through my
door..."
It's going to be Bran and Rickon and Hodor and their direwolves.
"Ah, you. I was-"
"Hodor!"
"Woof!"
"Argh! *gurgle*."
"He's choking on a frog-leg!"
"Hodor?"
Now that I'm looking at this, doesn't "Reed" sound like a special
Greywater Watch bastard-name? Funny if he was some legitimised nobody
from the wrong side of the sheets, but kept his bastard-name after his
Lordification in order to keep sticking it to the hoity-toities. Maybe
Ned gave him his title in return for his silence about certain things.
> > There are some who contend that Varys *never* actually tells lies.
> > This might be something for us to look out for during our re-read and
> > re-CHOW.
>
> On that note, any more of these on the horizon? I am getting crazy and
> thinking about doing another one.
Go ahead. I'll do my part next week, once we get a chance to Google
properly for these things.
> Absolutely. At the worst, Dany could trade them for armies or fleets
> of ships, and I think that Varys believes as Viserys did that if a
> legitimate Targaryen returned at the head of a force, with a very
> questionable claim of legitimacy in the Lannister kids, they would get
> plenty of support from the Westerosi nobility, particularly the
> Dornish and perhaps many other dispossessed people who remember things
> more fondly than they actually were.
Yeah, apparently the common folks loved them for some reason. Probably
for two main ones, actually:
1) The Targaryens restricted a lot of their more esoteric
entertainments (such as setting people alight and using them as
torches, and making people strangle themselves in an attempt to save
loved ones from death) to the nobility, demonstrating at least a small
measure of understanding of the universe. Any really bad stuff, like
the attempt to burn the entire subcontinent to a crisp with wildfire,
was stopped before it began so the smallfolk never found out about it.
2) The Baratheons and Lannisters are so dramatically worse than anyone
else before, they actually make the nutty inbred dragon-kings look
good. Tywin Lannister really seems to believe that setting Gregor
Clegane and his rape-squads loose on the countryside will *reduce* his
number of enemies, when it is in fact almost literally breeding new
generations of them. And the less said about Cersei and Joffrey the
better. If Danaerys comes in and kills them all, the smallfolk may
just start up a donation fund lottery sort of thing for feeding the
dragons with their firstborn children.
> > I don't think he sees himself as king material. If he owns Winterfell,
> > the Vale, the Riverlands and a little Tully all of his own, he'll be
> > happy. This rather depends on ingratiating himself with a whole lot of
> > Lords, taking over a whole lot of places as the war gradually empties
> > them, and being in favour with whoever ends up on the Iron Throne. I
> > think Littlefinger can just about manage this, at least until somebody
> > finally cuts his balls off and stuffs them in his mouth and throws
> > him, screaming muffledly, out of the Goddamn Moon Window.
>
> But I still wonder who Littlefinger wants to be running the show. As
> you say, he would prefer to be in favor, but what candidates is he
> close to? Baby Robert is barely the Vale ruler, Sansa is at the best a
> potential spouse for the King, assuming all the Stark boys are dead
> (which they are not of course). I just can't visualize his endgame.
> Pretty much whoever wins the Throne is going to see him as a problem,
> not as any kind of ally, unless he does a lot between now and then.
Unless he's doing a whole heap we don't know about.
His aim might just be to take over the Riverlands, the Vale,
Winterfell and the rest of the North, and then just swear fealty and
peace with whoever wins. And of course renounce any claim on a throne
as long as he gets to keep his Lordship and lands and all the
pubescent Catelyn Stark lookalikes he can fondle.
But I don't know who he would be actually backing. Any ruler with half
a brain would see him as a scheming little creep and bump him off. Any
ruler with less than half a brain would be, while a step up from
Cersei Baratheonnister, hardly optimal. And at the moment, like you
say, he hardly seems to be backing anyone. He's obviously up to
something that we're not seeing. One hand is diddling with the Lords
of the Vale and setting up this Harry the Heir guy, and the other -
aside from the obvious - is doing something else.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>me.
Does this just about sum up your post?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> Interestingly enough, the student aspect is a renewal. I was out of
> school for ten years then went back to get my Master's Degree, so I am
> not exactly a young pup myself. I am sure we will find something to
> argue about sooner or later. Mayhap I shall send you some of my short
> fiction. I understand you are a savage critic. Gonna be hard to find
> something to argue about strongly when the source material has been
> discussed already at such lengths.
Well, I'd be flattered. But I would never be harshly critical of the
written word of a fellow newsgrouper. I mean, Martin is fair game
because he's the reason we're here and presumably, since this isn't
the Big Bearded Baby's personal blog where he can delete critics,
anything goes.
But you'd find me distressingly soft and fuzzy when it comes to
written offerings. I mean, I could offer various feedback and of
course any sort of technical corrections should any be necessary, but
I don't think I've ever actually slammed somebody's work as such.
Well, maybe Robin Hobb and that Eragon guy ... but that's not so much
what I would call an issue of "work" so much as "arse custard on a bed
of paper".
Of course, your work could be just dismally, offensively bad, almost
to a degree where it was medically hazardous to the reader or even
those in close proximity to the reader, and I may be unable to prevent
myself from saying something. But that seems quite unlikely.
> > Did I mean Ashara Dayne, anyway? I think I didn't mean Ashara Dayne at
> > all. Because she was meant to be the one who Ned was in love with, and
> > who conveniently committed suicide so nobody could ask her about where
> > Jon Snow came from.
>
> Yeah, Ashara Dayne was supposedly Ned's (why is he not Ed? always
> wondered that, anyway)
The fount of wisdom that is Wikipedia says:
"Ned is an English given name, sometimes short for Edward, Edmund,
Edgar, or Edwin."
"Ed: Edward, Edwin, Edmond, Edmund, Edgar, Eduard, Eduardo, Eddie."
So for "Eddard", I suppose "Ned" is what they use in Westeros. What
about "Edmure", Catelyn's brother? Did he go by "Ned" as well, or was
he "Ed"?
> lover who birthed Jon Snow.
Ah yes. And people believe this even though she wasn't actually
pregnant? Or was she pregnant as well, when she "killed herself"?
> I was just
> verifying this and saw that her body was never recovered. Any chance
> she might still be alive? Seems like a long time to disappear,
> though...
Maybe Varys never had male genitalia.
> > Rhaegar's wife was ... Elara? Something like that? As I recall, she
> > was put very gently and humanely out of her misery by Gregor "(Really)
> > Big Softie" Clegane.
>
> Elia Martell of course, which explains the Martell's hostility toward
> the current regime until this day.
Of course! Phew, we got there in the end. Elia of Dorne, of course it
was. I sometimes get the Dornes and the Daynes mixed up. Even though
there is no family called "Dorne", insert Mister Worf joke here. But
yeah, she was Oberyn's sister or niece.
> I also believe that the Dornish
> have been involved (specifically Doran Martell, whose son Quentyn (?)
> is still unaccounted for across the ocean) in a lot of the anti-
> Lannister plotting, I believe their representative may even be the
> third of the conspirators (Varys, Illyrio, & ...) for the Targaryen
> return.
Hmm.
> Quentin and Doran are definitely up to their necks in some
> sort of plan we don't know yet. The Sand Serpents are notably unaware
> of this plan, from what we have read.
Yeah, and the whole thing got fucked up as a result of Doran playing
things too close to his chest and everybody thinking he was a big
gouty wussbag.
> > Well, as Penny pointed out it was a vision, specifically, that
> > Danaerys has of Rhaegar and the wolf-girl, or at least she had a
> > vision of Rhaegar and it triggers a memory of someone (was it Viserys?
> > Or Jorah?) telling her about how Rhaegar had kicked arse at jousting
> > and gave the rose to Lyanna instead of his wife-to-be.
>
> Thank you, the vision was what I was thinking of, not the actual
> memory. These two aspects you mentioned are probably the best evidence
> for the Jon Snow as Rhaegar-Lyanna's offspring.
Danaerys sees a vision of someone she assumes is Rhaegar, with Elia
and their son, announcing that he is the Prince Who Was Promised.
Which turns out not to be true which is presumably why he goes and has
his totally consensual and amazingly well-planned fling with Lyanna
Stark. Then Danaerys sees another vision, of a blue rose growing in a
wall of ice, which links back to the story she heard about the blue
roses Rhaegar gave Lyanna, and then of course the fact that Jon is on
the Wall.
Like sands through the hourglass.
> > A very Martinesque choice of Basils, given that we've never seen him
> > or heard anything from him first-hand, and yet he probably knows
> > everything (including how he and Ned managed to depopulate an entire
> > tower all by themselves and make everyone believe a non-pregnant woman
> > was pregnant retroactively for nine months, and a pregnant woman look
> > non-pregnant over the same period. I'm guessing a coathanger and a
> > flux capacitor were needed) and as soon as we *do* see him, he'll
> > probably choke to death on a frog bone before he can say anything
> > remotely useful.
>
> I agree that Martin is not the author to have Reed jump out and
> explain everything, therefore justifying the claims of Snow on the
> crown, etc.
He couldn't take the crown anyway, any more than Maester Aemon could
have. His oath to the Wall forbids it, and I don't think that will go
away even in the unlikely event of the Wall falling down.
> I wonder whether he will reveal anything to the readers,
> but I agree that he probably won't ever reveal anything useful to
> those who can make use of it.
Yeah, two different things there, for sure. I tend to doubt there's
anything much he can say that will revolutionise the way Westeros is
run. The current system by which everyone runs around chopping
people's heads off with swords until only one person with a sword is
left seems to work perfectly, and why would anyone care what Toad of
Toad Hall has to say anyway?
> As for the tower issue, that still bears
> a lot of explanation. Would seem there would be plenty of people that
> would know what happened there, though nearly all of those people
> would probably be dead at this point they would have been around to
> tell the tale for a long time before the recent carnage.
I want Wylla and her explosive milk-pillows to make at least one
hilarious appearance.
> Well, you would at least have the semi-noble Rhaegar as one parent (do
> we have any negative views of Rhaegar in the series? I can't think of
> one). Joffrey had no such luck. Now if Cersei had taken to bonking
> Tyrion, then...
Well, Robert of course goes off on a series of tirades about how
Rhaegar raped Lyanna and eventually killed her, but he can't really be
seen as an impartial witness.
Interestingly, though, of the rest of the reflections on Rhaegar we
have, none are really conclusive. Jorah and Barristan seem to hedge
when they're talking about the past. They're happy enough saying Aerys
was a bit dangerous and Danaerys is wiser and kinder, but when she
asks about Rhaegar they're all, "yes, well, the Targaryen line
produces madness and genius, golly is that the time, I have to go."
But this might be Martin's uncharacteristically clumsy way of keeping
the question open as to whether Rhaegar really did rape Lyanna, just
to perpetuate his tiresome twist-to-be.
Ned reflects somewhat positively on him, at least considering that the
"rape" story might possibly be true and looking at his reaction to
Jaime's misdeeds. I doubt he'd be so forgiving if Rhaegar was as nutty
as Robert makes out. But then a lot of his reflections are just
useless drivel. What value does Lyanna's remembered judgement of
Robert as a womaniser have, if she happily took up with the
married-with-children Rhaegar fifteen minutes later?
> I agree here. Realistically, Tyrion is still very attached to the
> family, or would be if they allowed him to. My guess is if it came
> down to it he still would support Jaime or Kevan or any of the
> remotely sane Lannisters (even with Jaime's involvement in the
> prostitute wife affair).
Kevan or the auntie, maybe he would have a kind word to say in the
unlikely event that they let him walk into their houses without having
him killed. But he made it pretty clear that he was disowning Jaime
and that they were nothing to each other from that moment on. His
parting scene with him made that fairly clear, I think.
> The patricide had been a loooooong time
> coming, and Varys (presumably) had to put lots of nails in the coffin
> to ensure it happened.
I'm just not sure. It loses a lot of its effect if Varys helped make
it happen. This was a powerful piece of work from Tyrion, and he
deserves to get the credit. I don't think Varys could plant enough
evidence to make Tywin and Shae that fuckheaded.
> > Not while they were machinations at the expense of his family ...
> > until now. Now, I think he'll be all about the machinations at the
> > expense of his family.
>
> I disagree, I think even though he dislikes the remainder of his
> family, he will still find it quite distasteful to work against them.
Possibly. I guess time will tell.
> > > And the Shae thing smells very much of Varys.
>
> > It smells of Tywin being a giant hypocritical cunt, is what it smells
> > like.
>
> Nah, I think the whole chain of office around the neck, lying in bed
> thing was very non Tywin. Cersei maybe, but Tywin didn't soil himself
> with that kind of thing (ironic considering his end).
He vehemently claimed not to, but I think he did. Which is why that
whole final scene was so ludicrously hateful. Short of drugging Shae
to make sure she didn't struggle, and drugging Tywin so he spent the
whole night on the can, there was no way Varys could ensure that scene
happened the way it did. One wrong turn and Tywin is clubbing Shae to
death and dropping her into the midden, then kicking Tyrion across the
room like a football when he steps inside. Too many moving parts for
Varys to even try, he's too smart for that.
My opinion of this plot point is summed up quite nicely in this thread
from 2005:
In fact, in this very thread our esteemed Trade Surplus (going by the
name of Eoghan at this time) summed up my current objection better
than I could do right now:
> It's the character issues that, for me, move this theory
> from highly improbable to definitely false. If these very
> important events are nothing more than a varys ex machina[1],
> then what was a truly great piece of writing, wherein we
> get deep insight into Tyrion's tortured soul as well as a
> good look at Jaime's flawed growth to adulthood and a
> brief but stunning glimpse of Tywin's true nature,
> becomes a silly and contrived plot element where the
> principles only act as they do because they are being
> manipulated by a master puppeteer.
Yeah, what Trade said. My main objection to this is that it smacks of
Tywin-defending of the lowest and most despicable order. And this is a
newsgroup known for defending people (and I use the term loosely) like
Littlefinger, Theon, Melisandre and Cersei. A newsgroup where at least
one person actually stood up and said he didn't think Viserys was
insane.
> If everybody is dead, how to explain Jon? Stannis and his group will
> be dead, and nearly all of the Brothers (except Dolorous Edd, who just
> can't die, ever). But I am guessing that the battling kings will still
> be going at it even with the threat of the Others.
They seem to have done a good job of ignoring them so far. Their
idiocy will soon come back to haunt them.
> Also it seems
> unlikely they will find their way past the wall, as really without
> that they should be able to march right on down to King's Landing
> without too much trouble. Though that would support your everyone dead
> theory...
Might still be too warm for them.
> I think when they found it the Others woke up. What was the deal with
> the Iron Islander's Horn?
That was meant to do something, it killed the guy who blew it anyway.
The opposite number to the horn the Wildlings had?
> And the horn that Sam has in Oldtown that
> Jon found?
I think that was the Wildling horn, wasn't it? Someone ran off with it
and a stash of dragonglass, and Jon found it later.
> Will the horn even matter?
I'd like to hope it does something, at least.
The direwolf in the beginning died because of a horn, after all.
Okay, an antler. But it was still hilarious.
> This makes me think that maybe it will be the end of the Black
> Brotherhood, which would be convenient in allowing Jon to resume his
> rightful (?) position without discoloring his stainless honor.
*sigh*
I'd like to hope not. I mean, they still have their oath.
> This
> also would being a metaphorical "bringing down the Wall" though I
> agree that Martin will find a way to make it neater than I have
> proposed here.
*grin*
That's what we pay him for.
> They didn't think to have one of their girls do it, though.
> Interesting considering how important the female Targaryens were, rare
> as the notable ones were. I wonder if one of the men would have walked
> into the fire with an egg, would they have spawned a dragon?
I think it had to be the right time, and I don't think this was the
standard formula for dragon-hatching, of course - it was just needed
this time, to bring them back from nothingness[1]. I mean, back when
dragons were hatching on their own I doubt such a sacrifice was
necessary. And when they weren't, such a sacrifice would have been in
vain. Danaerys was just in the right place at the right time.
But no, I doubt the gender really mattered.
> > Cersei makes some remark about Littlefinger not caring about anything,
> > and only asking them to send him some tapestries he left behind. This
> > was such a nonsensical message for him to send, and Cersei was so
> > stupidly dismissive of it, that I can't help but think the tapestries
> > were of enormous importance.
>
> I think these were the tapestries that Jon Arryn wanted, the ones that
> somehow or other spelled out the Baratheon genes, basically verifying
> that Cersei's kids were not Robert's. Unless there is something more?
I don't remember Arryn wanting tapestries. He just had notes about the
lineages and stuff, and it was pretty vague ... Ned didn't pick up on
it at first, anyway. But I could be wrong. Maybe he did say something
about tapestries somewhere, before he died.
Something to look for in the Lysa-chapters.
> > Jaime was all for declaring themselves openly, with the staggeringly
> > dodgy claim "if it was okay for the Targaryens, it's okay for us."
>
> > There's a slogan. Worthy of a re-write to the Lannister Family Words,
> > I reckon.
>
> Except pretty clearly the rest of the Lannisters seem at least to not
> support it. Tywin definitely knew about it, as well as presumably his
> brother and probably Auntie Genna, but they don't seem to approve,
> just too much to lose if they called them on it.
Cousins were okay, but siblings was right out.
Do you think they knew, or just suspected until the point at which
Kevan says straight out that Jaime is probably the father of the
Baratheon kids? I guess Tywin might have known and just been too
furious and humiliated to ever admit it to anyone, even himself - he
seems the sort. And of course, so much of Jaime's and Cersei's lives
were Tywin and others moving them around and separating them, and them
finding ways to stay together, and Tywin getting pissed about it.
> > I'm thinking more like the High Sparrow kicking that whole hornet's
> > nest apart, Qyburn running away, and Cersei being forced to bunk with
> > a whole heap of her vivisected former friends who chew her skin off.
>
> Ewww, nice imagery. Are any of them (besides Gregor) still alive? I
> can't imagine...
I guess it all depends on what Qyburn is doing to them. He tends to
say "worn out" rather than "dead" in some cases, which is nice and
creepy.
> I may be crazy, but I still have very high hopes for the series
> redeeming itself.
It really hasn't taken that much of a dive since the Red Wedding.
Sure, that's a pretty tough act to follow at the best of times, and
the latest book was too long and complex so it had to be divided this
way. And the first half happened to be quite a bit of otherwise
unimportant stuff. And we've had years and years to over-discuss it to
death and get annoyed at the fact that we still didn't get what we
were waiting for.
Put it together with the next book, see if Martin doesn't get his
second wind and start enjoying the story again, and I can guarantee
that most of his readers will too. There's been a lot of complaining
but let's face it, we've been given plenty of time to do practically
nothing else. And here we are, still willing to give the story some
discussion hours.
No, I think if anything I'm just as hopelessly optimistic as you. The
Wheel of Time series went downhill because Jordan just lost enthusiasm
for the story. And then he died, but that's another issue. I'm still
waiting to see if it gains ground now. And the Song of Ice and Fire
isn't that far gone yet. Martin gets out and enjoys himself, he
ignores his critics, and he does side-projects that both show he's
still loving the story and ensures that he'll continue to love it and
find new inspiration in it all the time. The games, and the TV show,
are just the ticket.
I'm not in a hurry to see the end of the story. Far from it. I want it
to take as long as it needs to take in order to be *good*.
> I think that Feast for Crows was a dud, and I think
> that Martin realized that as well.
I guess so. It never really had a chance, though. So much expectation,
and then it was only half a story. A lot of the excitement of the
other books was that the reader could go from one cliffhanger to the
next, following all the threads. This way, there's so much missing.
Maybe he should have delayed publication until he had this next one
done, then interwoven them the way he normally did into a 2000-page
monster, then just cut it down the middle and released them both at
six-month intervals. I wouldn't have minded waiting, although
obviously a lot of other people would have and Martin himself was
probably in need of money. Maybe.
> I really do believe that he had
> Dance half-way finished, but scrapped it because it was shit.
Oh, is that the way you're heading with this? Hmm, I'm not sure about
that. I'd never thought of it that way. Although when you think about
it, what are the alternatives?
Either he had the whole massive story mostly-written as he said, and
then decided to re-write (this fits his statements at least), or he
was writing out plot threads and got these ones done and decided to
release them while he finished off the rest, and it turned out to take
him a lot longer than expected (this doesn't really fit with what
little we know).
So yeah, that's probably the way it went.
> I think
> he has had to rethink everything, which accounts for it taking so
> long.
Fine with me. And the problem with publishing half the story already
is, he has to fit in with that now because it's locked. He can't
adjust it as he writes the second half, so they go together. Every
time he comes up with something that doesn't fit with the stuff in
Feast for Crows, he has to sit and think about how to explain the
discrepancy or re-write it yet again so there isn't one.
> It may be pipe dreams, but I think that Martin recognizes this
> is the defining moment of his legacy, and he does not want to fuck it
> up like Jordan did.
Exactly. Going off half-baked is probably just as bad as losing the
joy of the work and just dragging the story's carcasss from plot
resolution to plot resolution.
> I really anticipate something special with the
> next book. Now if it is not stellar on the level of the first two
> books, then I hold out zero hope for the series, as we certainly can't
> wait ten years for each book and have them continue to decline in
> quality each time. Besides that Martin is very unlikely to live
> another 20 years. Oh, and the world will be ending on December 21,
> 2012 anyway, so it doesn't really matter...<g>
All true. I'll be a starry-eyed optimist with you, sir.
C&J
[1] And I also tend to doubt, in spite of the arguments we've had in
the past about the dwindling size of the dragon heads, that the return
of magic is going to be as slow as its departure. The magic seemed to
bleed away, but it will return - has returned - quite a bit faster.
Within Varys's lifetime, the fire demons are back. What was it the
fire priestess said about the fakir playing with his flame-ladder? A
year ago, he couldn't have done it? So yeah, I don't think Danaerys's
dragons are going to be small and stunted. I think they'll grow to
full dragon-size so they can be ridden, and kick arse and stuff. I'm
just worried that Martin will never be able to give them the time to
do it realistically.
Will in New Haven
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 08:38:44 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
>
> >me.
>
> Does this just about sum up your pst
No. But I'm happy to see a post of yours where Google doesn't make me
hit the "read more" button to find out you haven't said anything.
The soul of brevity is wit.
Ben
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> > We never get to see how Lyanna really feels about anything. Rhaegar is
> > still a fairly mysterious character also, as all we get are stories of
> > him being heroic, but none from anybody that actually knew him. Those
> > that knew Lyanna are also pretty much dead.
>
> Indeed. There are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of reflection through
> third parties who we can't be sure are telling the truth or
> remembering everything properly.
>
might be more or less true, unlike the distinct memory Ned has of
Lyanna's death.
More related to the other thread (I think only you and I are reading
at this point anyway so I figure a deviation will be okay), the Starks
seem like hard-ass MFs to me, and Lyanna was almost certainly no
delicate flower. Not to be insensitive, but have we even heard of
another Stark dying of fever? It would seem they would build up some
pretty drastic immunities up there, and if Lyanna was anything like
her brother, it seems unlikely that any run-of-the-mill fever would
take her out. Just a thought.
> We're left hoping for full disclosure from The Crab-Man of Greywater
> Watch, some sort of surprise revelation from Barristan Selmy, or a
> vision in the fires of R'hllor that makes the whole damn thing make
> sense. I personally am not holding my breath, although I'm sure sooner
> or later we'll get some sort of answers that will be enough to satisfy
> the cow-eyed cud-sucking DOOLtards of the Jon Targaryen camp. I just
> don't think it's ever going to be enough to make me think it was a
> cool idea or an interesting twist. It's just lame, basically.
>
No fire visions, please! Barristan would be good to hear some truth
about Rhaegar and Lyanna and would probably know a lot more than he
has let anyone else know. Great source for information and somebody we
know would be happy to support Daenerys already because of who she is
and will be, not because of some false recollections or hopeful
thinking.
> > This is the one thing that I think he won't talk about, off-screen or
> > not, though I agree it would be interesting to hear someone
> > objective's opinion of what happened in Robert's revolt, other than
> > the King's Landing stuff we know pretty well. I would love to have
> > Martin pull something unconventional on this and not do a conventional
> > exposition, but I don't know what other options there are.
>
> Darn right. It's not as if Jon is going to go there and have Howland
> Reed go, "Ah, you. I was wondering when you would walk in through my
> door..."
>
I suspect that we will never see the doors of Greywater (?) though I
would be surprised if we don't get some frog-sucker armies appearing
at some point. After all, to get anywhere good, the Others will have
to go through the swamp or through Frey territory (Would love to have
that happen, would be worth the devastation in the North, as Walder's
crotchety old ass wouldn't be running anywhere).
> It's going to be Bran and Rickon and Hodor and their direwolves.
>
> "Ah, you. I was-"
> "Hodor!"
> "Woof!"
> "Argh! *gurgle*."
> "He's choking on a frog-leg!"
> "Hodor?"
>
Any thoughts on where Martin is going with Rickon? We've gotten a good
idea with pretty much all the other kids, but Rickon still seems like
the hairy kid from Road Warrior...
> Now that I'm looking at this, doesn't "Reed" sound like a special
> Greywater Watch bastard-name? Funny if he was some legitimised nobody
> from the wrong side of the sheets, but kept his bastard-name after his
> Lordification in order to keep sticking it to the hoity-toities. Maybe
> Ned gave him his title in return for his silence about certain things.
>
I like this idea, and it certainly wouldn't hurt the story any to be
true. I think that Ned wouldn't trade titles for silence, though.
Practical and self-serving just isn't Starky. Now if he was a bastard
son of that house and the rest of them died, something like that...?
>
> > On that note, any more of these on the horizon? I am getting crazy and
> > thinking about doing another one.
>
> Go ahead. I'll do my part next week, once we get a chance to Google
> properly for these things.
>
Google be damned, a group search turned up the original quickly
enough.
> > Absolutely. At the worst, Dany could trade them for armies or fleets
> > of ships, and I think that Varys believes as Viserys did that if a
> > legitimate Targaryen returned at the head of a force, with a very
> > questionable claim of legitimacy in the Lannister kids, they would get
> > plenty of support from the Westerosi nobility, particularly the
> > Dornish and perhaps many other dispossessed people who remember things
> > more fondly than they actually were.
>
> Yeah, apparently the common folks loved them for some reason. Probably
> for two main ones, actually:
>
> 1) The Targaryens restricted a lot of their more esoteric
> entertainments (such as setting people alight and using them as
> torches, and making people strangle themselves in an attempt to save
> loved ones from death) to the nobility, demonstrating at least a small
> measure of understanding of the universe. Any really bad stuff, like
> the attempt to burn the entire subcontinent to a crisp with wildfire,
> was stopped before it began so the smallfolk never found out about it.
>
Good point, and it appeared that there were more good-ish ones than
crazy ones (or least alternating). And they had dragons!
> 2) The Baratheons and Lannisters are so dramatically worse than anyone
> else before, they actually make the nutty inbred dragon-kings look
> good. Tywin Lannister really seems to believe that setting Gregor
> Clegane and his rape-squads loose on the countryside will *reduce* his
> number of enemies, when it is in fact almost literally breeding new
> generations of them. And the less said about Cersei and Joffrey the
> better. If Danaerys comes in and kills them all, the smallfolk may
> just start up a donation fund lottery sort of thing for feeding the
> dragons with their firstborn children.
>
Sad if you can make Aerys look like a good king, but Cersei and
Joffrey are doing their best! It also seems that the commoners liked
their royalty distant and awe-inspiring. Robert was just fat and
stupid, drunk and whore-monger, while the Lannisters make Robert look
like Sir Lancelot!
You make a good point about Tywin and Gregor. What possible sense was
that? I think this was probably spawned more by "What the hell am I
going to do with this psychopath?", but nonetheless what tactician
allows such devastation among people you want to support you? If they
were isolated in the rebelling areas, then it makes half-ass sense,
but these guys spent most of their time in the main part of Westeros,
robbing and looting out of the castles that Tywin gave them! What the
hell?
>
>
> > But I still wonder who Littlefinger wants to be running the show. As
> > you say, he would prefer to be in favor, but what candidates is he
> > close to? Baby Robert is barely the Vale ruler, Sansa is at the best a
> > potential spouse for the King, assuming all the Stark boys are dead
> > (which they are not of course). I just can't visualize his endgame.
> > Pretty much whoever wins the Throne is going to see him as a problem,
> > not as any kind of ally, unless he does a lot between now and then.
>
> Unless he's doing a whole heap we don't know about.
>
> His aim might just be to take over the Riverlands, the Vale,
> Winterfell and the rest of the North, and then just swear fealty and
> peace with whoever wins. And of course renounce any claim on a throne
> as long as he gets to keep his Lordship and lands and all the
> pubescent Catelyn Stark lookalikes he can fondle.
>
This makes a perverted sense but seems dumb, for several reasons you
have already said. Who the hell would let him have this much power?
> But I don't know who he would be actually backing. Any ruler with half
> a brain would see him as a scheming little creep and bump him off. Any
> ruler with less than half a brain would be, while a step up from
> Cersei Baratheonnister, hardly optimal. And at the moment, like you
> say, he hardly seems to be backing anyone. He's obviously up to
> something that we're not seeing. One hand is diddling with the Lords
> of the Vale and setting up this Harry the Heir guy, and the other -
> aside from the obvious - is doing something else.
>
For certain, and I don't think we will find any of it out in the next
book, which I believe Littlefinger does not have a role in. So ten
more years until we find out what he is doing...
Ben
Ben
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:09:25 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> Well, I'd be flattered. But I would never be harshly critical of the
> written word of a fellow newsgrouper. I mean, Martin is fair game
> because he's the reason we're here and presumably, since this isn't
> the Big Bearded Baby's personal blog where he can delete critics,
> anything goes.
>
money...
> But you'd find me distressingly soft and fuzzy when it comes to
> written offerings. I mean, I could offer various feedback and of
> course any sort of technical corrections should any be necessary, but
> I don't think I've ever actually slammed somebody's work as such.
> Well, maybe Robin Hobb and that Eragon guy ... but that's not so much
> what I would call an issue of "work" so much as "arse custard on a bed
> of paper".
>
Ug, Christopher Paolini is the anti-christ of fiction. "Look boys and
girls, anybody with insanely supportive parents and the imagination of
a ten-year old (along with equivalent writing skills) can make a
million dollars writing fantasy fiction!" I actually am pretty
umimpressed with a lot of the sci-fi/fantasy fiction being put out
right now. I see Roger Zelazny has two books on the shelf at Borders
giant mega-store while Twilight has an entire aisle? Isaac Asimov has
seven books on the shelf? Out of what, over a hundred? If it means
anything, I am reading Jules Verne, Asimov, Edgar Rice Burroughs right
now. The only semi-modern authors I am reading right now are Dan
Simmons and Neil Gaiman. Just don't understand what sells today...
> Of course, your work could be just dismally, offensively bad, almost
> to a degree where it was medically hazardous to the reader or even
> those in close proximity to the reader, and I may be unable to prevent
> myself from saying something. But that seems quite unlikely.
>
Quite possible, though the form letters I have gotten back from
editors haven't said one way or another. I fear just frightfully
mediocre, not sensationally bad or good. But it's a skill that needs
exercise, and since getting back out of school I am writing quite a
bit (though most of it is pure drivel).
>
> > Yeah, Ashara Dayne was supposedly Ned's (why is he not Ed? always
> > wondered that, anyway)
>
> The fount of wisdom that is Wikipedia says:
>
> "Ned is an English given name, sometimes short for Edward, Edmund,
> Edgar, or Edwin."
>
> "Ed: Edward, Edwin, Edmond, Edmund, Edgar, Eduard, Eduardo, Eddie."
>
> So for "Eddard", I suppose "Ned" is what they use in Westeros. What
> about "Edmure", Catelyn's brother? Did he go by "Ned" as well, or was
> he "Ed"?
>
They never shortened his name that I remember. Which is odd, as Edmure
is a mouthful.
> > lover who birthed Jon Snow.
>
> Ah yes. And people believe this even though she wasn't actually
> pregnant? Or was she pregnant as well, when she "killed herself"?
>
Gotta re-read this. I don't remember any distinctive memories of any
of this from anybody. Do you remember who gives us these murky
details?
> > I was just
> > verifying this and saw that her body was never recovered. Any chance
> > she might still be alive? Seems like a long time to disappear,
> > though...
>
> Maybe Varys never had male genitalia.
>
I guess that's how a Targaryen (always assumed he was a Targaryen with
the name) falls out of favor and becomes the master of spies. He's
never revealed his own house, has he?
>
> > Elia Martell of course, which explains the Martell's hostility toward
> > the current regime until this day.
>
> Of course! Phew, we got there in the end. Elia of Dorne, of course it
> was. I sometimes get the Dornes and the Daynes mixed up. Even though
> there is no family called "Dorne", insert Mister Worf joke here. But
> yeah, she was Oberyn's sister or niece.
>
Roger Dorn was also the non-fielding Third Baseman for the Cleveland
Indians in Major League, the one whose wife bonked Charlie Sheen.
How's that for useless trivia?
>
> > Quentin and Doran are definitely up to their necks in some
> > sort of plan we don't know yet. The Sand Serpents are notably unaware
> > of this plan, from what we have read.
>
> Yeah, and the whole thing got fucked up as a result of Doran playing
> things too close to his chest and everybody thinking he was a big
> gouty wussbag.
>
I certainly can't imagine he planned on Oberyn's death, or having to
lock up the Sand Snakes. But now he has little sister Lannister,
doesn't he? We haven't heard the last of him, I am sure.
>
> Danaerys sees a vision of someone she assumes is Rhaegar, with Elia
> and their son, announcing that he is the Prince Who Was Promised.
> Which turns out not to be true which is presumably why he goes and has
> his totally consensual and amazingly well-planned fling with Lyanna
> Stark. Then Danaerys sees another vision, of a blue rose growing in a
> wall of ice, which links back to the story she heard about the blue
> roses Rhaegar gave Lyanna, and then of course the fact that Jon is on
> the Wall.
>
> Like sands through the hourglass.
>
Here is the obvious stuff that I was forgetting. Seems to point to
bastard Jon as well as anything. However Martin has been known to
curveball a big vision or two, and he might have something like this
in mind...?
>
> > I agree that Martin is not the author to have Reed jump out and
> > explain everything, therefore justifying the claims of Snow on the
> > crown, etc.
>
> He couldn't take the crown anyway, any more than Maester Aemon could
> have. His oath to the Wall forbids it, and I don't think that will go
> away even in the unlikely event of the Wall falling down.
>
You think that oath is going to hold up? Silly man. That oath has one
foot in the grave. My guess is that the whole oath concept will be
abandoned so that Jon doesn't have an exception made just for him,
lessening his heroics.
> > I wonder whether he will reveal anything to the readers,
> > but I agree that he probably won't ever reveal anything useful to
> > those who can make use of it.
>
> Yeah, two different things there, for sure. I tend to doubt there's
> anything much he can say that will revolutionise the way Westeros is
> run. The current system by which everyone runs around chopping
> people's heads off with swords until only one person with a sword is
> left seems to work perfectly, and why would anyone care what Toad of
> Toad Hall has to say anyway?
>
Here's the most salient point of the whole discussion, and why
Daenerys will be the boss at the end of the day. More swords and
meaner SOBs (Unsullied plus trio de dragons).
>
> I want Wylla and her explosive milk-pillows to make at least one
> hilarious appearance.
>
Gotta have more Wylla!
>
> Well, Robert of course goes off on a series of tirades about how
> Rhaegar raped Lyanna and eventually killed her, but he can't really be
> seen as an impartial witness.
>
If Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, then Robert looks more than a little
douchy, no?
> Interestingly, though, of the rest of the reflections on Rhaegar we
> have, none are really conclusive. Jorah and Barristan seem to hedge
> when they're talking about the past. They're happy enough saying Aerys
> was a bit dangerous and Danaerys is wiser and kinder, but when she
> asks about Rhaegar they're all, "yes, well, the Targaryen line
> produces madness and genius, golly is that the time, I have to go."
> But this might be Martin's uncharacteristically clumsy way of keeping
> the question open as to whether Rhaegar really did rape Lyanna, just
> to perpetuate his tiresome twist-to-be.
>
I agree with all points here. Clearly everybody that met Rhaegar liked
him, even Ned has nothing particularly bad to say about him, unlikely
if he raped his sister.
> Ned reflects somewhat positively on him, at least considering that the
> "rape" story might possibly be true and looking at his reaction to
> Jaime's misdeeds. I doubt he'd be so forgiving if Rhaegar was as nutty
> as Robert makes out. But then a lot of his reflections are just
> useless drivel. What value does Lyanna's remembered judgement of
> Robert as a womaniser have, if she happily took up with the
> married-with-children Rhaegar fifteen minutes later?
>
I think Rhaegar was like Fabio. He waved his mane and the ladies
flocked over. Even Cersei was prepared to give up Jaime for him. I
think that Lyanna just wasn't into Robert because even then he was
loud, dumb, and selfish. She was probably prepared to forgive Rhaegar
his wife (who of course he never loved and was forced to marry) if she
was given the opportunity to "wake the dragon".
>
> Kevan or the auntie, maybe he would have a kind word to say in the
> unlikely event that they let him walk into their houses without having
> him killed. But he made it pretty clear that he was disowning Jaime
> and that they were nothing to each other from that moment on. His
> parting scene with him made that fairly clear, I think.
>
Nah, I think that Tyrion just doesn't have it in him to forget about
Jaime. This will be part of the Jaime-redemption arc, trust me.
> > The patricide had been a loooooong time
> > coming, and Varys (presumably) had to put lots of nails in the coffin
> > to ensure it happened.
>
> I'm just not sure. It loses a lot of its effect if Varys helped make
> it happen. This was a powerful piece of work from Tyrion, and he
> deserves to get the credit. I don't think Varys could plant enough
> evidence to make Tywin and Shae that fuckheaded.
>
If not then it's AWFULLY convenient timing. Varys is involved in this
in some way, I am sure of it.
>
> > Nah, I think the whole chain of office around the neck, lying in bed
> > thing was very non Tywin. Cersei maybe, but Tywin didn't soil himself
> > with that kind of thing (ironic considering his end).
>
> He vehemently claimed not to, but I think he did. Which is why that
> whole final scene was so ludicrously hateful. Short of drugging Shae
> to make sure she didn't struggle, and drugging Tywin so he spent the
> whole night on the can, there was no way Varys could ensure that scene
> happened the way it did. One wrong turn and Tywin is clubbing Shae to
> death and dropping her into the midden, then kicking Tyrion across the
> room like a football when he steps inside. Too many moving parts for
> Varys to even try, he's too smart for that.
>
<snipped supporting quote>
Okay, I'll give on that, but it seems equally a stretch to believe
that Tywin just happened, on the day that Jaime was going to release
Tyrion, to be banging Tyrion's ex-hooker, and that Tyrion just
happened to wander in to witness this. I might be prepared to say that
Tywin was being a giant cunt and banging away at said whore, though I
am not convinced of this as he never appeared to be sexually involved
with anyone previously, which made me think of him as rather asexual.
But even if that is so, you must be prepared to admit that the release
and direction of Tyrion's escape was manipulated by Varys (certainly
not Jaime, the only other person who was involved). Who else could
have told Jaime where to find him and how to get him out? Jaime had no
reason to have such knowledge nor any friends to give it to him. And
what are the odds that the most direct way to escape from the dungeon
would lead to the Tower of the Hand? Sure there would be a direct
route, but if the objective was for Tyrion to get the hell out of
Dodge, then how could he have gone the opposite direction? Jaime
certainly would not have wanted this, so who would have?
Though it may hurt the impact for you and Mister Surplus, it doesn't
for me at all. The boiling emotion and the fact that Tywin deserved
every stinking minute of it would exist even if both were drugged and
completely framed by Varys (which I am not saying happened, but might
have). The fact that they (Jaime and Tyrion and Shae and Tywin) are
being played by Varys does not have any impact on the fact that Tywin
was a horribly abusive father who did nothing but evil to Tyrion his
whole life, and that was the reason for the murder. And it was plenty
reason enough.
>
> Yeah, what Trade said. My main objection to this is that it smacks of
> Tywin-defending of the lowest and most despicable order. And this is a
> newsgroup known for defending people (and I use the term loosely) like
> Littlefinger, Theon, Melisandre and Cersei. A newsgroup where at least
> one person actually stood up and said he didn't think Viserys was
> insane.
>
No Tywin-defender here, though I am a big believer in Varys' talents
as master manipulator (in case you haven't figured that out already).
Tywin deserved every bit of what happened, and Tyrion should be
relieved to have done it. But to think it was all chance is no less
poor writing than to say that it couldn't happen because unless it was
chance it was poor writing. There is a grey area somewhere in the
middle, methinks.
> > If everybody is dead, how to explain Jon? Stannis and his group will
> > be dead, and nearly all of the Brothers (except Dolorous Edd, who just
> > can't die, ever). But I am guessing that the battling kings will still
> > be going at it even with the threat of the Others.
>
> They seem to have done a good job of ignoring them so far. Their
> idiocy will soon come back to haunt them.
>
Indeed. Or at least it can be hoped. Pretty much everyone left in the
path of the Others deserves whatever they get.
> > Also it seems
> > unlikely they will find their way past the wall, as really without
> > that they should be able to march right on down to King's Landing
> > without too much trouble. Though that would support your everyone dead
> > theory...
>
> Might still be too warm for them.
>
Could be, but not for long.
> > I think when they found it the Others woke up. What was the deal with
> > the Iron Islander's Horn?
>
> That was meant to do something, it killed the guy who blew it anyway.
> The opposite number to the horn the Wildlings had?
>
Didn't do anything else but make everything think "Wow, that's a magic
horn, innit?"
> > And the horn that Sam has in Oldtown that Jon found?
>
> I think that was the Wildling horn, wasn't it? Someone ran off with it
> and a stash of dragonglass, and Jon found it later.
>
But what does it do? Anything? Is it the Horn of Winter?
>
> I'd like to hope not. I mean, they still have their oath.
>
Oath, schmoath, that oath is a dead man walking, I am telling you.
>
> I think it had to be the right time, and I don't think this was the
> standard formula for dragon-hatching, of course - it was just needed
> this time, to bring them back from nothingness[1]. I mean, back when
> dragons were hatching on their own I doubt such a sacrifice was
> necessary. And when they weren't, such a sacrifice would have been in
> vain. Danaerys was just in the right place at the right time.
>
> But no, I doubt the gender really mattered.
>
Just curious if there will ever be any other luck with various dragon-
wakenings? Almost certainly not, I would think.
>
> > I think these were the tapestries that Jon Arryn wanted, the ones that
> > somehow or other spelled out the Baratheon genes, basically verifying
> > that Cersei's kids were not Robert's. Unless there is something more?
>
> I don't remember Arryn wanting tapestries. He just had notes about the
> lineages and stuff, and it was pretty vague ... Ned didn't pick up on
> it at first, anyway. But I could be wrong. Maybe he did say something
> about tapestries somewhere, before he died.
>
> Something to look for in the Lysa-chapters.
>
Pretty sure, but not prepared to dig deep enough to verify this. Too
lazy.
>
> Cousins were okay, but siblings was right out.
>
> Do you think they knew, or just suspected until the point at which
> Kevan says straight out that Jaime is probably the father of the
> Baratheon kids? I guess Tywin might have known and just been too
> furious and humiliated to ever admit it to anyone, even himself - he
> seems the sort. And of course, so much of Jaime's and Cersei's lives
> were Tywin and others moving them around and separating them, and them
> finding ways to stay together, and Tywin getting pissed about it.
>
Tywin at least must have known, though maybe not until after the kids
were born. Kevan knew, and I get the impression that auntie Gemma was
the smartest of the bunch so she probably knew as well. Kids doing it
aren't clever enough to keep it a secret, especially in an invasive
culture like the royal houses. And these two kids are certainly not
smart enough. Trust me, if Bran caught them doing it in an observation
tower, many others had caught them before, then either been killed or
paid off to keep their silence.
>
> I guess it all depends on what Qyburn is doing to them. He tends to
> say "worn out" rather than "dead" in some cases, which is nice and
> creepy.
>
Yeah, he reminds me of Kurd from the Thieves' World books. I guess
that makes Gregor Tempus Thales...
>
> It really hasn't taken that much of a dive since the Red Wedding.
> Sure, that's a pretty tough act to follow at the best of times, and
> the latest book was too long and complex so it had to be divided this
> way. And the first half happened to be quite a bit of otherwise
> unimportant stuff. And we've had years and years to over-discuss it to
> death and get annoyed at the fact that we still didn't get what we
> were waiting for.
>
True, and most of the POVs that I want to read should be in the next
book, if I am thinking clearly (never a safe bet).
> Put it together with the next book, see if Martin doesn't get his
> second wind and start enjoying the story again, and I can guarantee
> that most of his readers will too. There's been a lot of complaining
> but let's face it, we've been given plenty of time to do practically
> nothing else. And here we are, still willing to give the story some
> discussion hours.
>
Hallelujah. Even another Feast for Crows will be better than nearly
everything on the shelf. But for another Storm of Swords, there's
something worth waiting for.
> No, I think if anything I'm just as hopelessly optimistic as you. The
> Wheel of Time series went downhill because Jordan just lost enthusiasm
> for the story. And then he died, but that's another issue. I'm still
> waiting to see if it gains ground now. And the Song of Ice and Fire
> isn't that far gone yet. Martin gets out and enjoys himself, he
> ignores his critics, and he does side-projects that both show he's
> still loving the story and ensures that he'll continue to love it and
> find new inspiration in it all the time. The games, and the TV show,
> are just the ticket.
>
How could he not? It's fucking brilliant! It would take probably two
more steep declines in quality (which Feast was, no mistake) to make
me abandon the series. I am guessing we won't get even one. And Martin
has not painted himself into any corners. There is still so much to
tell us!
> I'm not in a hurry to see the end of the story. Far from it. I want it
> to take as long as it needs to take in order to be *good*.
>
Well, not as long as it has for Dance. I don't think I will wait
another ten years anxiously as I have this time around. And knowing
there is at least two more books coming out, the gap needs to tighten
up for the next one, else all the intensity will be gone, no HBO, no
games, no short stories, etc. But Martin knows this.
> > I think that Feast for Crows was a dud, and I think
> > that Martin realized that as well.
>
> I guess so. It never really had a chance, though. So much expectation,
> and then it was only half a story. A lot of the excitement of the
> other books was that the reader could go from one cliffhanger to the
> next, following all the threads. This way, there's so much missing.
>
True, but Martin did have control of that. I am sure that no editor
forced him to do it this way. He's got too much weight (literally and
figuratively) to believe that.
> Maybe he should have delayed publication until he had this next one
> done, then interwoven them the way he normally did into a 2000-page
> monster, then just cut it down the middle and released them both at
> six-month intervals. I wouldn't have minded waiting, although
> obviously a lot of other people would have and Martin himself was
> probably in need of money. Maybe.
>
I believe that, as none of his other projects are remotely as
lucrative. However better to have a five year gap, then another five
year gap, than one relatively short gap then a huge fershlugginer gap.
To be honest I was very excited with how quickly Feast came out on the
heels of CoK. I think that led to false impressions of the speed of
the series. And it was only one year gaps for the first three books,
nearly back to back.
> > I really do believe that he had
> > Dance half-way finished, but scrapped it because it was shit.
>
> Oh, is that the way you're heading with this? Hmm, I'm not sure about
> that. I'd never thought of it that way. Although when you think about
> it, what are the alternatives?
>
> Either he had the whole massive story mostly-written as he said, and
> then decided to re-write (this fits his statements at least), or he
> was writing out plot threads and got these ones done and decided to
> release them while he finished off the rest, and it turned out to take
> him a lot longer than expected (this doesn't really fit with what
> little we know).
>
Possible, but unlikely.
> So yeah, that's probably the way it went.
>
I think if Feast had gone over like gangbusters, he probably would
have released Dance much earlier. The fans clearly wanted something
more.
> > I think
> > he has had to rethink everything, which accounts for it taking so
> > long.
>
> Fine with me. And the problem with publishing half the story already
> is, he has to fit in with that now because it's locked. He can't
> adjust it as he writes the second half, so they go together. Every
> time he comes up with something that doesn't fit with the stuff in
> Feast for Crows, he has to sit and think about how to explain the
> discrepancy or re-write it yet again so there isn't one.
>
Absolutely, so he has to really pump up this stuff while not leaving
the other stuff out in the cold. A tricky thing, but as you said,
that's why we pay him..
> > It may be pipe dreams, but I think that Martin recognizes this
> > is the defining moment of his legacy, and he does not want to fuck it
> > up like Jordan did.
>
> Exactly. Going off half-baked is probably just as bad as losing the
> joy of the work and just dragging the story's carcasss from plot
> resolution to plot resolution.
>
Which is what I think he did with Feast. It was not as well thought
out as the others were, and it showed. So he is rethinking...
> > I really anticipate something special with the
> > next book. Now if it is not stellar on the level of the first two
> > books, then I hold out zero hope for the series, as we certainly can't
> > wait ten years for each book and have them continue to decline in
> > quality each time. Besides that Martin is very unlikely to live
> > another 20 years. Oh, and the world will be ending on December 21,
> > 2012 anyway, so it doesn't really matter...<g>
>
> All true. I'll be a starry-eyed optimist with you, sir.
>
Keep the dream alive!
>
> [1] And I also tend to doubt, in spite of the arguments we've had in
> the past about the dwindling size of the dragon heads, that the return
> of magic is going to be as slow as its departure. The magic seemed to
> bleed away, but it will return - has returned - quite a bit faster.
> Within Varys's lifetime, the fire demons are back. What was it the
> fire priestess said about the fakir playing with his flame-ladder? A
> year ago, he couldn't have done it? So yeah, I don't think Danaerys's
> dragons are going to be small and stunted. I think they'll grow to
> full dragon-size so they can be ridden, and kick arse and stuff. I'm
> just worried that Martin will never be able to give them the time to
> do it realistically.
I think this is one of the reasons for the span between books in
Westeros-time, so that the dragons can grow up and magic can return at
something less than an unbelievable pace, but yet be of some impact. I
wonder if the black dragon is going to turn out to be evil? Would be a
terrific twist, especially if he wasn't Dany's down the road. Maybe
the third rider is Theon! <g>
Ben
Chucky and the Fantabulous Webomophone
wrote:
> > >me.
>
> > Does this just about sum up your post?
>
> No.
I think you lie, old man.
C@w
--
Oh yes.
Will in New Haven
I may be mistaken but I am not lying.
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
Hey, Frodo Lives ... aren't you Shadowstalker's buddy? I recall Ben
and Dave, and that email address...
> More related to the other thread (I think only you and I are reading
> at this point anyway so I figure a deviation will be okay),
Have at.
> the Starks
> seem like hard-ass MFs to me, and Lyanna was almost certainly no
> delicate flower. Not to be insensitive, but have we even heard of
> another Stark dying of fever? It would seem they would build up some
> pretty drastic immunities up there, and if Lyanna was anything like
> her brother, it seems unlikely that any run-of-the-mill fever would
> take her out. Just a thought.
Heh. We haven't heard of it, necessarily, but I wouldn't go so far as
to say that one of the fifteen or twenty Northmen we know of dying of
an illness is so unusual as to be worthy of comment. And if it was,
why did none of the Northmen seem to think so?
And besides, I think it's fair to say that whatever really happened,
it wasn't a fever that took Lyanna away, unless it was a
pneumonia-like complication of other problems. It just seemed like
maybe the only symptom that would manifest itself in a way that could
be tangible in that sort of flashback.
Because "she grabbed Ned's hand with fingers that were slimy with
blood from her ruptured uterus" is just a bit too graphic.
> Any thoughts on where Martin is going with Rickon? We've gotten a good
> idea with pretty much all the other kids, but Rickon still seems like
> the hairy kid from Road Warrior...
Heh, well he is awfully young. I'm guessing he'll be feral for a
while, but probably end up surviving. At least until we need someone
really bad and evil to show up and threaten Bran. In which case Martin
has a perfect vessel for making said bad guy even eviller by having
him smash Rickon's brains out against a wall for biting.
> > Now that I'm looking at this, doesn't "Reed" sound like a special
> > Greywater Watch bastard-name? Funny if he was some legitimised nobody
> > from the wrong side of the sheets, but kept his bastard-name after his
> > Lordification in order to keep sticking it to the hoity-toities. Maybe
> > Ned gave him his title in return for his silence about certain things.
>
> I like this idea, and it certainly wouldn't hurt the story any to be
> true. I think that Ned wouldn't trade titles for silence, though.
There are a lot of things about Ned that we will have to have been way
wrong about, however, for the Jon Targaryen Theory to be true. So much
so that this is really not going to make much of a splash.
> Practical and self-serving just isn't Starky. Now if he was a bastard
> son of that house and the rest of them died, something like that...?
Of course, Ned being Ned (or so we think), he could dress it up any
old how. Reed was the only guy with him when he found Lyanna. They
fought their way through a bunch of Kingsguard and presumably lost a
mess of pals when they were on their way to the Tower of Joy. If Reed
was the only survivor, and stood by him and helped him with whatever
nasty shit needed to be done, that might have been enough for Ned to
ennoble him without having it be an excuse for his discretion or
rumour-spreading. It was just because Reed deserved it.
On yet another hand, the Crannogmen do sound like one of those old
North-ish group/families, like the Boltons and the extended Stark
clan, who have just been around forever and own the land because
nobody else can. So maybe he's the Lord of Greywater Watch because ...
well, just because he is.
> > > On that note, any more of these on the horizon? I am getting crazy and
> > > thinking about doing another one.
>
> > Go ahead. I'll do my part next week, once we get a chance to Google
> > properly for these things.
>
> Google be damned, a group search turned up the original quickly
> enough.
Yes ... I tend to use Google for group search. I guess there's a
feature for it in Agent, but I've never tried it.
> Sad if you can make Aerys look like a good king, but Cersei and
> Joffrey are doing their best! It also seems that the commoners liked
> their royalty distant and awe-inspiring. Robert was just fat and
> stupid, drunk and whore-monger, while the Lannisters make Robert look
> like Sir Lancelot!
Indeed.
> You make a good point about Tywin and Gregor. What possible sense was
> that? I think this was probably spawned more by "What the hell am I
> going to do with this psychopath?",
It comes back to Ned and Tywin's differing opinions on monsters (the
use of). Ned was of the opinion that they were good for pretty much
fuck-all, and Tywin thought they had their time and place. Presumably
when you got it into your head that someone had offended you, and just
sending in an army to annexe the place wasn't horrible enough.
Tywin was, the more I think about it, a bit of a psychopath himself.
Marrying his own cousin, and then allowing his twin children to breed,
probably wasn't the best genetic move. But of course, it's also
upbringing. Yeah.
*smacks the head of a random passing moron*
> but nonetheless what tactician
> allows such devastation among people you want to support you? If they
> were isolated in the rebelling areas, then it makes half-ass sense,
> but these guys spent most of their time in the main part of Westeros,
> robbing and looting out of the castles that Tywin gave them! What the
> hell?
Yeah. At one point Tywin gave orders to let Gregor / the Mummers loose
in Stark-held lands, to punish the smallfolk for disobedience or hurt
the Starks or something ... But basically, what you end up with then
is a population of huddled masses in enemy-held lands who are being
threatened by a force that only your enemy is going to destroy. So
basically, you're reinforcing the smallfolk's dependence on your
enemy. Plus, you're making your enemy look much, much better than you.
> > His aim might just be to take over the Riverlands, the Vale,
> > Winterfell and the rest of the North, and then just swear fealty and
> > peace with whoever wins. And of course renounce any claim on a throne
> > as long as he gets to keep his Lordship and lands and all the
> > pubescent Catelyn Stark lookalikes he can fondle.
>
> This makes a perverted sense but seems dumb, for several reasons you
> have already said. Who the hell would let him have this much power?
Danaerys is going to need more than a few loyal followers to rule the
lands of Westeros in her name. I doubt Littlefinger is trustworthy
enough to rule an outhouse in her name. So no matter how large the
area he's aiming for, we run into that issue.
Snatching land and power and castles, and keeping them, would seem to
be Littlefinger's game. How he's going to pull it off, however, is
beyond me. Because it would be a bit boring and his tactical genius
would be a bit lame if we all saw it coming.
> For certain, and I don't think we will find any of it out in the next
> book, which I believe Littlefinger does not have a role in. So ten
> more years until we find out what he is doing...
I'm so there.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
Just so you know, I'm by no means ignoring this one - but time is
short today so I will have to attend to it in the coming week.
C&J
Ben
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:30:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> Hey, Frodo Lives ... aren't you Shadowstalker's buddy? I recall Ben
> and Dave, and that email address...
>
Shadowstalker (or Dave, for that matter, assuming they are the same
person). I do remember another Ben posting on the group though,
perhaps that's the guy.
>
> > the Starks
> > seem like hard-ass MFs to me, and Lyanna was almost certainly no
> > delicate flower. Not to be insensitive, but have we even heard of
> > another Stark dying of fever? It would seem they would build up some
> > pretty drastic immunities up there, and if Lyanna was anything like
> > her brother, it seems unlikely that any run-of-the-mill fever would
> > take her out. Just a thought.
>
> Heh. We haven't heard of it, necessarily, but I wouldn't go so far as
> to say that one of the fifteen or twenty Northmen we know of dying of
> an illness is so unusual as to be worthy of comment. And if it was,
> why did none of the Northmen seem to think so?
>
It certainly wasn't dubious to the Northmen. However that might have
something to do with nobody in the North conceiving of Ned actually
lying about anything. He could probably say that pink elephants flew
out of his butt and people would have trouble disbelieving it.
> And besides, I think it's fair to say that whatever really happened,
> it wasn't a fever that took Lyanna away, unless it was a
> pneumonia-like complication of other problems. It just seemed like
> maybe the only symptom that would manifest itself in a way that could
> be tangible in that sort of flashback.
>
Fever can be nasty business and still kills people even today on a
pretty regular basis, though admittedly it is nearly always a symptom
of some other illness. Winterfell was cold even at its best and
Maester Luwin, though a nice guy, didn't seem to have much in his bag
of tricks to actually heal anything.
> Because "she grabbed Ned's hand with fingers that were slimy with
> blood from her ruptured uterus" is just a bit too graphic.
>
Indeed.
> > Any thoughts on where Martin is going with Rickon? We've gotten a good
> > idea with pretty much all the other kids, but Rickon still seems like
> > the hairy kid from Road Warrior...
>
> Heh, well he is awfully young. I'm guessing he'll be feral for a
> while, but probably end up surviving. At least until we need someone
> really bad and evil to show up and threaten Bran. In which case Martin
> has a perfect vessel for making said bad guy even eviller by having
> him smash Rickon's brains out against a wall for biting.
>
I thought you were going a different way with this, as in Rickon
turning out to BE the bad guy. I would love to have a Stark actually
turn out to be an SOB (besides Sansa, who isn't villainous, just very
stupid, like her mother). Would be cool to have Rickon do some beasty
wild things like ripping someone's throat out, something like that.
Would not put this past Martin...
>
> > I like this idea, and it certainly wouldn't hurt the story any to be
> > true. I think that Ned wouldn't trade titles for silence, though.
>
> There are a lot of things about Ned that we will have to have been way
> wrong about, however, for the Jon Targaryen Theory to be true. So much
> so that this is really not going to make much of a splash.
>
Not so many things. He would do anything to preserve his family honor,
even lying (see above), but I sincerely think he would do as little
dishonest activity as he could. If that turns out not to be true, then
that would be a major character deviation.
>
> Of course, Ned being Ned (or so we think), he could dress it up any
> old how. Reed was the only guy with him when he found Lyanna. They
> fought their way through a bunch of Kingsguard and presumably lost a
> mess of pals when they were on their way to the Tower of Joy. If Reed
> was the only survivor, and stood by him and helped him with whatever
> nasty shit needed to be done, that might have been enough for Ned to
> ennoble him without having it be an excuse for his discretion or
> rumour-spreading. It was just because Reed deserved it.
>
This I'll buy, and we have other examples of this. Beyond that Reed
almost certainly did deserve it for his activity in the rebellion.
Would probably have rewarded the other companions as well, if they'd
have lived. I wonder how much "nasty shit" Ned actually engaged in. He
seems to have largely felt good about it for the most part, and if he
had done any infant-braining, etc. he would not have felt that way.
> On yet another hand, the Crannogmen do sound like one of those old
> North-ish group/families, like the Boltons and the extended Stark
> clan, who have just been around forever and own the land because
> nobody else can. So maybe he's the Lord of Greywater Watch because ...
> well, just because he is.
>
Maybe because nobody else particularly wanted to be? Doesn't sound
like the most desirable location...
>
> > Google be damned, a group search turned up the original quickly
> > enough.
>
> Yes ... I tend to use Google for group search. I guess there's a
> feature for it in Agent, but I've never tried it.
>
I guess I am using Google for group search as well, though I never
thought about it. I don't use Agent at all.
>
> > You make a good point about Tywin and Gregor. What possible sense was
> > that? I think this was probably spawned more by "What the hell am I
> > going to do with this psychopath?",
>
> It comes back to Ned and Tywin's differing opinions on monsters (the
> use of). Ned was of the opinion that they were good for pretty much
> fuck-all, and Tywin thought they had their time and place. Presumably
> when you got it into your head that someone had offended you, and just
> sending in an army to annexe the place wasn't horrible enough.
>
Definitely a tactical difference between the two, though with what
about Roose Bolton? Seems Ned would have utilized him, as Robb did,
and he was a bit of a monster. Though maybe Ned closed his eyes to
that? Maybe not so different after all?
> Tywin was, the more I think about it, a bit of a psychopath himself.
> Marrying his own cousin, and then allowing his twin children to breed,
> probably wasn't the best genetic move. But of course, it's also
> upbringing. Yeah.
>
Yeah, seems that way. Feeds your theory about Shae and all that also,
as that would be quite evil. I never really thought of him that way,
just utterly and completely ruthless. Not really spiteful, but
thinking about it, he was that on several occassions as well.
>
> Yeah. At one point Tywin gave orders to let Gregor / the Mummers loose
> in Stark-held lands, to punish the smallfolk for disobedience or hurt
> the Starks or something ... But basically, what you end up with then
> is a population of huddled masses in enemy-held lands who are being
> threatened by a force that only your enemy is going to destroy. So
> basically, you're reinforcing the smallfolk's dependence on your
> enemy. Plus, you're making your enemy look much, much better than you.
>
And Gregor and the Mummers were spending plenty of time outside Stark
lands. A lot of the really horrible stuff was happening around
Harrenhall, and that's certainly not Stark stomping grounds. I know
Riverrun was in the midst of it, but it would seem that Gregor was
only going after convenient targets. He never really attacked anyone
in the North proper.
>
> Danaerys is going to need more than a few loyal followers to rule the
> lands of Westeros in her name. I doubt Littlefinger is trustworthy
> enough to rule an outhouse in her name. So no matter how large the
> area he's aiming for, we run into that issue.
>
Plus Dany is a bit paranoid at this point about her people not being
trustworthy. I can't imagine her dragons would think highly of
Littlefinger, except as an appetizer?
> Snatching land and power and castles, and keeping them, would seem to
> be Littlefinger's game. How he's going to pull it off, however, is
> beyond me. Because it would be a bit boring and his tactical genius
> would be a bit lame if we all saw it coming.
>
Whatever his over-arching plan is, I think it is convoluted and I
really don't have a clue. I feel we know more about Varys' plans,
though admittedly we have some behind the scenes stuff to help us
figure that out.
> > For certain, and I don't think we will find any of it out in the next
> > book, which I believe Littlefinger does not have a role in. So ten
> > more years until we find out what he is doing...
>
> I'm so there.
>
Sadly me too.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Hey, Frodo Lives ... aren't you Shadowstalker's buddy? I recall Ben
> > and Dave, and that email address...
>
> I used to post a little bit on the group, but I don't know
> Shadowstalker (or Dave, for that matter, assuming they are the same
> person). I do remember another Ben posting on the group though,
> perhaps that's the guy.
Huh, just jumped out at me for some reason. Janica recognised the
username as well, from her history-archiving.
> > Heh. We haven't heard of it, necessarily, but I wouldn't go so far as
> > to say that one of the fifteen or twenty Northmen we know of dying of
> > an illness is so unusual as to be worthy of comment. And if it was,
> > why did none of the Northmen seem to think so?
>
> It certainly wasn't dubious to the Northmen. However that might have
> something to do with nobody in the North conceiving of Ned actually
> lying about anything. He could probably say that pink elephants flew
> out of his butt and people would have trouble disbelieving it.
Of course, Ned wouldn't have to really lie about this. If the Jon
Targaryen Theory is to be believed, apparently the ominous delivery of
"he is my blood, ask no more" was enough to stop his own wife from
asking about his bastard child for the rest of her freaking life. If
anyone asked what happened to Lyanna, he wouldn't have to tell them
doodly squat about a fever. He wouldn't even have to tell Robert. He
could just look grim and shake his head and let their own imaginations
do the rest.
Maybe if he really wanted to angle them away from the possibility of
pregnancy-complications, he could say something about an illness ...
but even that strikes me as unnecessary elaboration, especially for
someone like Steady Neddy. The man just can't tell a good lie, and we
all saw how he took to court intrigue. He finds out Cersei and Jaime
are having kids, and he *goes to Cersei* with it, and then gets his
head cut off, for fuck's sake. And he was probably surprised.
> > And besides, I think it's fair to say that whatever really happened,
> > it wasn't a fever that took Lyanna away, unless it was a
> > pneumonia-like complication of other problems. It just seemed like
> > maybe the only symptom that would manifest itself in a way that could
> > be tangible in that sort of flashback.
>
> Fever can be nasty business and still kills people even today on a
> pretty regular basis, though admittedly it is nearly always a symptom
> of some other illness. Winterfell was cold even at its best and
> Maester Luwin, though a nice guy, didn't seem to have much in his bag
> of tricks to actually heal anything.
Lyanna didn't die in Winterfell, or even get sick there. But I suppose
for the whole thing to have an impact on the thinking of the
Northerners, their own experience of sickness could be taken into
account.
> > Heh, well he is awfully young. I'm guessing he'll be feral for a
> > while, but probably end up surviving. At least until we need someone
> > really bad and evil to show up and threaten Bran. In which case Martin
> > has a perfect vessel for making said bad guy even eviller by having
> > him smash Rickon's brains out against a wall for biting.
>
> I thought you were going a different way with this, as in Rickon
> turning out to BE the bad guy.
I guess he could go fully feral, but I don't know how much impact an
evil Rickon would have. Maybe if he goes full-warg with Shaggydog.
> I would love to have a Stark actually
> turn out to be an SOB (besides Sansa, who isn't villainous, just very
> stupid, like her mother).
Yes, well, we have evil zombie catelyn, who is like alive-Catelyn but
a bit more bloodthirsty and a lot quieter. And we have
up-coming-assassin-Arya, who promises to be consistently badass.
In fact, not many of the Starks are what you'd call nice, anymore.
> Would be cool to have Rickon do some beasty
> wild things like ripping someone's throat out, something like that.
> Would not put this past Martin...
I'll look forward to that. Maybe he'll end up being as uncontrollable
as Danaerys's dragons.
> This I'll buy, and we have other examples of this. Beyond that Reed
> almost certainly did deserve it for his activity in the rebellion.
> Would probably have rewarded the other companions as well, if they'd
> have lived. I wonder how much "nasty shit" Ned actually engaged in. He
> seems to have largely felt good about it for the most part, and if he
> had done any infant-braining, etc. he would not have felt that way.
He doesn't think much about the Greyjoy Rebellion, either, but he must
have killed a bunch of guys and he took the ringleader's son as a
hostage at the end of it. Of course this is dressed up as Theon being
a "ward", which makes it okay.
But the main point is, to pull off something like the Jon Targaryen
switcheroo, Ned would have had to be guilty of considerably more in
the way of deviousness and evil shenanigans than a little bit of
lie-of-omissioning to his wife (for sixteen freaking years). Which is
why, if the theory is going to pan out (and sadly I guess it will), it
had to be Howland Reed taking care of most of the gory details, while
Ned turned a blind eye.
You'll notice Ned never really thinks about Reed, and doesn't invite
him along for the Lannister party or anything else much. Almost like
he's trying to keep him out of the way so his conscience isn't
troubled.
> > On yet another hand, the Crannogmen do sound like one of those old
> > North-ish group/families, like the Boltons and the extended Stark
> > clan, who have just been around forever and own the land because
> > nobody else can. So maybe he's the Lord of Greywater Watch because ...
> > well, just because he is.
>
> Maybe because nobody else particularly wanted to be? Doesn't sound
> like the most desirable location...
Fertile and highly-defensible, though. From what I recall, nobody has
ever taken the place. Enemies just disappear into the bogs. Sort of
like inconvenient unpregnant women who everybody is meant to think are
Jon's mother.
> > > Google be damned, a group search turned up the original quickly
> > > enough.
>
> > Yes ... I tend to use Google for group search. I guess there's a
> > feature for it in Agent, but I've never tried it.
>
> I guess I am using Google for group search as well, though I never
> thought about it. I don't use Agent at all.
Well I'll still see your "Google be damned" and raise you a "Google
schmoogle".
> > It comes back to Ned and Tywin's differing opinions on monsters (the
> > use of). Ned was of the opinion that they were good for pretty much
> > fuck-all, and Tywin thought they had their time and place. Presumably
> > when you got it into your head that someone had offended you, and just
> > sending in an army to annexe the place wasn't horrible enough.
>
> Definitely a tactical difference between the two, though with what
> about Roose Bolton? Seems Ned would have utilized him, as Robb did,
> and he was a bit of a monster. Though maybe Ned closed his eyes to
> that? Maybe not so different after all?
Maybe not, although I'm pretty sure Ned kept the Boltons and their
flaying pretty strictly under control. When they were his bannermen,
all they had was their creepy flag. And even then, like you say
elsewhere, they're not exactly typical Northmen. Now that Ned's dead,
Bolton is free to spread his wings - and he does.
> > Tywin was, the more I think about it, a bit of a psychopath himself.
> > Marrying his own cousin, and then allowing his twin children to breed,
> > probably wasn't the best genetic move. But of course, it's also
> > upbringing. Yeah.
>
> Yeah, seems that way. Feeds your theory about Shae and all that also,
> as that would be quite evil. I never really thought of him that way,
> just utterly and completely ruthless. Not really spiteful, but
> thinking about it, he was that on several occassions as well.
He was *extremely* spiteful and vindictive, and known for his huge
escalations in the face of battle / insult / pretty much anything -
and all of this was especially true of his relationship with Tyrion.
And he *told* Tyrion outright not to bring his whore to court.
I have no doubt that Tywin was going to have Shae killed and her body
destroyed after fucking her. Otherwise she would have started nagging
him for things, and telling people they had sex. Or, even worse, she
would have wanted paying. It's entirely possible that he let her put
on the chain of office after sex, then went to the toilet to let a
load off before sticking her with his *other* sword. The non-meat one.
But seriously. He could then say "she was in custody for her own
safety after the trial, I wanted to ask her what else she knew about
Tyrion, and the stupid whore decided to strip off, get in my bed and
wear my chain of office. I think I reacted quite rationally when I
stuck my sword (by which I mean the one that's not my penis) into her
head."
And Cersei would agree, of course. You saw how outraged she was when
Shae was found in her father's room, and the way she made excuses for
him. Not out of any belief in his purity, I think, so much as a desire
to maintain the power-base of his reputation for herself.
> > Yeah. At one point Tywin gave orders to let Gregor / the Mummers loose
> > in Stark-held lands, to punish the smallfolk for disobedience or hurt
> > the Starks or something ... but basically, what you end up with then
> > is a population of huddled masses in enemy-held lands who are being
> > threatened by a force that only your enemy is going to destroy. So
> > basically, you're reinforcing the smallfolk's dependence on your
> > enemy. Plus, you're making your enemy look much, much better than you.
>
> And Gregor and the Mummers were spending plenty of time outside Stark
> lands. A lot of the really horrible stuff was happening around
> Harrenhall, and that's certainly not Stark stomping grounds. I know
> Riverrun was in the midst of it, but it would seem that Gregor was
> only going after convenient targets. He never really attacked anyone
> in the North proper.
Harrenhal was given to a variety of Lannister loyalists, and the
Mummers used it as a base of operations when they went out raping the
Riverlands. So yeah, they were around, and they weren't picky about
who they attacked. I mean, Gregor gets pissed off and kills a
stablehand right in front of a packed jousting arena in King's
Landing, and gets away with it. The Mummers are a fucking liability,
but maybe as long as their bosses don't give a crap, they'll be okay.
Well, until the last of them get cut to pieces. There's a pretty
steady membership turnover.
> > Danaerys is going to need more than a few loyal followers to rule the
> > lands of Westeros in her name. I doubt Littlefinger is trustworthy
> > enough to rule an outhouse in her name. So no matter how large the
> > area he's aiming for, we run into that issue.
>
> Plus Dany is a bit paranoid at this point about her people not being
> trustworthy. I can't imagine her dragons would think highly of
> Littlefinger, except as an appetizer?
It would be funny if he plots and sneaks and plans and schemes and
manoeuvres for another five years, and takes over the Vale and half
the North, and then Danaerys arrives and he tries to insinuate himself
into power and she just goes, "yeah, you're creepy," and kills him and
divides up his land between her dragons for peasant-foraging.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > But you'd find me distressingly soft and fuzzy when it comes to
> > written offerings. I mean, I could offer various feedback and of
> > course any sort of technical corrections should any be necessary, but
> > I don't think I've ever actually slammed somebody's work as such.
> > Well, maybe Robin Hobb and that Eragon guy ... but that's not so much
> > what I would call an issue of "work" so much as "arse custard on a bed
> > of paper".
>
> Ug, Christopher Paolini is the anti-christ of fiction. "Look boys and
> girls, anybody with insanely supportive parents and the imagination of
> a ten-year old (along with equivalent writing skills) can make a
> million dollars writing fantasy fiction!"
I have no beef with his imagination, but his writing is bad (or at
least was, I've heard he's improving). Of course I can't judge as well
as I ought to be able to, since I have not read his books. I have only
skimmed a few pages in the bookstore. To read them fully would require
too much of an investment of time. Not to mention the fact that it
might also require that I buy them. *shudder*
But yeah, the bits I read had any number of problems, but they were
technical, nothing to do with the story. Of course, they then made a
movie that turned out so badly even Jeremy Irons, Robert Carlyle, John
Malkovich and Djimon Hounsou failed to save it.
Anything else I might have to say about the guy is just bitter
jealousy that my mum never owned a publishing company and printed my
books when I was a kid. Because I totally had one about a giant space
ant that was all kinds of awesome and I reckon with a hundred and
thirty million bucks to throw into it it would have made a great movie
too.
> I actually am pretty
> umimpressed with a lot of the sci-fi/fantasy fiction being put out
> right now. I see Roger Zelazny has two books on the shelf at Borders
> giant mega-store while Twilight has an entire aisle? Isaac Asimov has
> seven books on the shelf? Out of what, over a hundred? If it means
> anything, I am reading Jules Verne, Asimov, Edgar Rice Burroughs right
> now. The only semi-modern authors I am reading right now are Dan
> Simmons and Neil Gaiman. Just don't understand what sells today...
Alastair Reynolds is pretty good, in terms of solid science fiction.
> > Ah yes. And people believe this even though she wasn't actually
> > pregnant? Or was she pregnant as well, when she "killed herself"?
>
> Gotta re-read this. I don't remember any distinctive memories of any
> of this from anybody. Do you remember who gives us these murky
> details?
No, most of it is stuff we pieced together by common sense. Nobody
would have believed Ned sired a bastard rather than walking out of the
Tower of Joy with someone else's kid unless there was somebody who
could have been the mother of said bastard (the conveniently dead
Ashara Dayne). For them to believe she was the mother, dead or not,
she would have had to have been visibly pregnant for months leading up
to the event, or been in complete recluse of months, and she would
have needed to have been connected, or at least in the same castle
with, Ned Stark at some point around conception-time, which tends to
narrow down the odds. Otherwise people would have talked. Unless
Howland Reed drowned them all in Wylla's breast milk.
Also, for anyone to *miss* the fact that Lyanna was pregnant (because
let's face it, it's amazing that only Ned and Howland would have found
out), she would have had to live in the Tower of Joy being waited on
only by Rhaegar for at least half a year, or worn some sort of
elaborate belly-hiding armour, otherwise people would have talked.
Unless, again, Howland bumped them all off.
So either Ashara was pregnant and Howland Reed gave her an explosive
abortion before throwing her off the parapet and eating the baby
(perhaps washing it down with breast milk) ... or she wasn't pregnant,
in which case why do people believe she was the mother of Ned's child,
and did she really kill herself out of sorry because Ned couldn't
marry her?
Indeed, if Ned hadn't fathered a child with her, or even fucked her
(which I can't see Steady Neddy doing out of wedlock anyway, I'll give
the Jon Targaryenists that much although I think Robb's adventures on
the wrong side of the sheets might be a hint that even the noblest of
Starks could falter from time to time, especially as young men), how
close were they? Would they have gotten married if Brandon hadn't
died? Is that reason enough for her to kill herself?
> > Maybe Varys never had male genitalia.
>
> I guess that's how a Targaryen (always assumed he was a Targaryen with
> the name) falls out of favor and becomes the master of spies. He's
> never revealed his own house, has he?
Not as far as I know. I don't think he's a Targaryen, though. Unless
he's some cousin or nephew or something, related to Maester Aemon and
that's why he's waiting for the Targaryen comeback. But no, I tend to
think he's just a regular dude with no junk, just like he was for the
Targaryens. Doesn't need to be related to them.
> > Of course! Phew, we got there in the end. Elia of Dorne, of course it
> > was. I sometimes get the Dornes and the Daynes mixed up. Even though
> > there is no family called "Dorne", insert Mister Worf joke here. But
> > yeah, she was Oberyn's sister or niece.
>
> Roger Dorn was also the non-fielding Third Baseman for the Cleveland
> Indians in Major League, the one whose wife bonked Charlie Sheen.
> How's that for useless trivia?
That's impressive. Even less relevant than my Star Trek joke, but
impressive nevertheless.
> > Danaerys sees a vision of someone she assumes is Rhaegar, with Elia
> > and their son, announcing that he is the Prince Who Was Promised.
> > Which turns out not to be true which is presumably why he goes and has
> > his totally consensual and amazingly well-planned fling with Lyanna
> > Stark. Then Danaerys sees another vision, of a blue rose growing in a
> > wall of ice, which links back to the story she heard about the blue
> > roses Rhaegar gave Lyanna, and then of course the fact that Jon is on
> > the Wall.
>
> > Like sands through the hourglass.
>
> Here is the obvious stuff that I was forgetting. Seems to point to
> bastard Jon as well as anything. However Martin has been known to
> curveball a big vision or two, and he might have something like this
> in mind...?
I can only hope.
> > > I agree that Martin is not the author to have Reed jump out and
> > > explain everything, therefore justifying the claims of Snow on the
> > > crown, etc.
>
> > He couldn't take the crown anyway, any more than Maester Aemon could
> > have. His oath to the Wall forbids it, and I don't think that will go
> > away even in the unlikely event of the Wall falling down.
>
> You think that oath is going to hold up? Silly man. That oath has one
> foot in the grave. My guess is that the whole oath concept will be
> abandoned so that Jon doesn't have an exception made just for him,
> lessening his heroics.
*sigh*
This was about the only thing I could hope for regarding the Boy of
Destiny plotline. That he would turn his back on all of it because of
his oath, and screw up all the great plans and all the wonderful
ecstatic visions the Thaerists were having. The result would be
classic Martin fuckery. But maybe you're right. Maybe there is no
hope.
> > Well, Robert of course goes off on a series of tirades about how
> > Rhaegar raped Lyanna and eventually killed her, but he can't really be
> > seen as an impartial witness.
>
> If Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, then Robert looks more than a little
> douchy, no?
Well, yes. All the more so.
> > Ned reflects somewhat positively on him, at least considering that the
> > "rape" story might possibly be true and looking at his reaction to
> > Jaime's misdeeds. I doubt he'd be so forgiving if Rhaegar was as nutty
> > as Robert makes out. But then a lot of his reflections are just
> > useless drivel. What value does Lyanna's remembered judgement of
> > Robert as a womaniser have, if she happily took up with the
> > married-with-children Rhaegar fifteen minutes later?
>
> I think Rhaegar was like Fabio. He waved his mane and the ladies
> flocked over. Even Cersei was prepared to give up Jaime for him. I
> think that Lyanna just wasn't into Robert because even then he was
> loud, dumb, and selfish. She was probably prepared to forgive Rhaegar
> his wife (who of course he never loved and was forced to marry) if she
> was given the opportunity to "wake the dragon".
Thank you for that mental picture. I will do my best to repay you for
it, one day when you least expect it.
> > Kevan or the auntie, maybe he would have a kind word to say in the
> > unlikely event that they let him walk into their houses without having
> > him killed. But he made it pretty clear that he was disowning Jaime
> > and that they were nothing to each other from that moment on. His
> > parting scene with him made that fairly clear, I think.
>
> Nah, I think that Tyrion just doesn't have it in him to forget about
> Jaime. This will be part of the Jaime-redemption arc, trust me.
Not forget him, sure. But he's done worshipping him.
> > > The patricide had been a loooooong time
> > > coming, and Varys (presumably) had to put lots of nails in the coffin
> > > to ensure it happened.
>
> > I'm just not sure. It loses a lot of its effect if Varys helped make
> > it happen. This was a powerful piece of work from Tyrion, and he
> > deserves to get the credit. I don't think Varys could plant enough
> > evidence to make Tywin and Shae that fuckheaded.
>
> If not then it's AWFULLY convenient timing. Varys is involved in this
> in some way, I am sure of it.
Well yes, I did say that he was involved in some way. We know he was
involved in some way, because he helped spring Tyrion from prison.
Most of the rest of it most likely *was* coincidence, of which Varys
probably took full advantage in his plan to do whateverthefuck to the
Lannisters. Although how he took advantage is still unsure, because we
haven't seen him since.
For Varys to be the active instigator of most, if not all of the main
points of this scene just ruins it.
> Okay, I'll give on that, but it seems equally a stretch to believe
> that Tywin just happened, on the day that Jaime was going to release
> Tyrion, to be banging Tyrion's ex-hooker, and that Tyrion just
> happened to wander in to witness this.
"Just happened" nothin'. Shae was dragged in out of the little serving
girl role Varys set for her, and coerced into testifying against
Tyrion. Tywin, being a giant cunt, took the opportunity to fuck her,
desiring as he did to soil anything that was Tyrion's to the full
possible extent. He was almost certainly going to kill her afterwards,
because keeping her around would make no sense.
Tyrion didn't "just happen" to get free, we know this. And he didn't
"just happen" to know where Tywin's room was.
Jaime *did*, however, "just happen" to tell Tyrion the truth about
what happened to Tysha when they were youngsters, which was what made
Tyrion go back and kill Tywin. Varys had nothing to do with that, and
I'll wager that he had nothing to do with Tywin "just happening" to be
on the can when Tyrion arrived, or Shae "just happening" to be in the
bed with the Hand's chain around her neck. If Tywin had been sitting
in the lounge room or lying in bed with Shae, it wouldn't have been
quite as effective, but he might as well have been.
As it is, we end up with Tyrion, bent on revenge, returning to the
Hand's chambers through the secret whore-tunnel, finding his old whore
in his father's bed, and then finding his father on the toilet, and
killing them both. And it's awesome.
So we have a couple of coincidences (Jaime telling Tyrion about Tysha,
Tywin being on the toilet), a few bits of Varys-planning (Tyrion
getting free, being armed [or was that Jaime?], knowing where to find
Tywin), and one giant bit of Tywin-cuntery (Shae being in the room).
As opposed to all of these things being puppeteered by Varys. Which is
so gay that even gay would think it was gay.
> I might be prepared to say that
> Tywin was being a giant cunt and banging away at said whore, though I
> am not convinced of this as he never appeared to be sexually involved
> with anyone previously, which made me think of him as rather asexual.
So the alternatives are either that Varys left her there, knowing that
Tyrion would be coming and that it would tip him over the edge
(although Tyrion by that point was going to kill Tywin anyway), or
that she was under house arrest of some sort pending a flaying and
death in typical Lannister reward for her services, and she decided to
go wandering into Tywin's room, strip down and lie in his bed with his
chain of office around her neck.
> But even if that is so, you must be prepared to admit that the release
> and direction of Tyrion's escape was manipulated by Varys (certainly
> not Jaime, the only other person who was involved).
Of course. We said this already.
> And what are the odds that the most direct way to escape from the
> dungeon would lead to the Tower of the Hand?
Also like we said, Varys did tell Tyrion where Tywin's room was (I
seem to recall he "let it slip" when explaining that it was a secret
tunnel for the Hand, leading back to Tywin's room), and that was
likely no accident.
Tyrion went back, with killing on his mind, because of Jaime.
> Jaime certainly would not have wanted this, so who would have?
Interesting thought about Jaime's opinion of his father. It wasn't
high.
> Though it may hurt the impact for you and Mister Surplus, it doesn't
> for me at all. The boiling emotion and the fact that Tywin deserved
> every stinking minute of it would exist even if both were drugged and
> completely framed by Varys (which I am not saying happened, but might
> have).
You're kidding. The fact that the whole thing was staged wouldn't
affect its impact at all?
> The fact that they (Jaime and Tyrion and Shae and Tywin) are
> being played by Varys does not have any impact on the fact that Tywin
> was a horribly abusive father who did nothing but evil to Tyrion his
> whole life, and that was the reason for the murder. And it was plenty
> reason enough.
Like I think I said in the original discussion on this, Tyrion doesn't
kill Tywin because of Shae at all, or because of the trial. He kill
*Shae* because of her multi-level betrayal (although if he'd been
thinking clearly he might have realised that she had little choice -
same as he had no hard feelings against Bronn).
He kills Tywin because of Tysha. This is something Varys could not
have orchestrated, even if he somehow happened to know about it.
> No Tywin-defender here, though I am a big believer in Varys' talents
> as master manipulator (in case you haven't figured that out already).
I had an inkling.
> Tywin deserved every bit of what happened, and Tyrion should be
> relieved to have done it. But to think it was all chance is no less
> poor writing than to say that it couldn't happen because unless it was
> chance it was poor writing. There is a grey area somewhere in the
> middle, methinks.
Just as well that's pretty much what we said from the beginning, and
never said it was all chance at all. Isn't it?
I'm all about the grey area somewhere in the middle.
> > I think it had to be the right time, and I don't think this was the
> > standard formula for dragon-hatching, of course - it was just needed
> > this time, to bring them back from nothingness[1]. I mean, back when
> > dragons were hatching on their own I doubt such a sacrifice was
> > necessary. And when they weren't, such a sacrifice would have been in
> > vain. Danaerys was just in the right place at the right time.
>
> > But no, I doubt the gender really mattered.
>
> Just curious if there will ever be any other luck with various dragon-
> wakenings? Almost certainly not, I would think.
I'd hope not. It would dilute the effect a bit if any old stone dragon
could be brought to life, rather than actual eggs being hatched. Plus,
those stone dragon statues would be much bigger and tougher than
Danaerys's ones, at least at the start. And it would sort of turn
Martin's whole magical system on its head. I think about all
Melisandre can really manage (on account of her being evil) is the
occasional shoddy vision and the even more occasional assassin
cunt-ninja.
> > Exactly. Going off half-baked is probably just as bad as losing the
> > joy of the work and just dragging the story's carcasss from plot
> > resolution to plot resolution.
>
> Which is what I think he did with Feast. It was not as well thought
> out as the others were, and it showed. So he is rethinking...
It didn't help that all the Brienne point of view chapters were
basically a boring-arse tour of the suburbs, with the occasional fight
and mutilation and possible hidden-character-reveal thrown in to spice
it up.
> I think this is one of the reasons for the span between books in
> Westeros-time, so that the dragons can grow up and magic can return at
> something less than an unbelievable pace, but yet be of some impact. I
> wonder if the black dragon is going to turn out to be evil? Would be a
> terrific twist, especially if he wasn't Dany's down the road. Maybe
> the third rider is Theon! <g>
If this was the Order of the Stick / AD&D universe, the black dragon
would definitely be evil. But then, I think the more likely
eventuality is that they're all evil. In that classic Martin way. I
mean, seriously. They're at least semi-wild, they breathe fire and
they eat people. Our anthropomorphised way of looking at the world is
going to have to consider them at least nasty, if not downright evil.
Danaerys seems to have good intentions and perhaps the best grip on
the increasingly-slippery baseball bat of righteous claim, but she's
still going to kill a lot of guys and there's going to be huge
collateral damage.
I certainly don't think the dragons are going to be nice, and Danaerys
isn't going to control them as much as she'd like.
I was hoping the third rider would be Lizard Boy, since his body was
never found ... but maybe I was daydreaming.
C&J
Ben
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:53:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> Targaryen Theory is to be believed, apparently the ominous delivery of
> "he is my blood, ask no more" was enough to stop his own wife from
> asking about his bastard child for the rest of her freaking life. If
> anyone asked what happened to Lyanna, he wouldn't have to tell them
> doodly squat about a fever. He wouldn't even have to tell Robert. He
> could just look grim and shake his head and let their own imaginations
> do the rest.
>
I could see Catelyn being cowed, mostly because she was not too
bright. However being a married man myself I can't conceive of a woman
who wouldn't have wormed all the details of this out of her husband.
> Maybe if he really wanted to angle them away from the possibility of
> pregnancy-complications, he could say something about an illness ...
> but even that strikes me as unnecessary elaboration, especially for
> someone like Steady Neddy. The man just can't tell a good lie, and we
> all saw how he took to court intrigue. He finds out Cersei and Jaime
> are having kids, and he *goes to Cersei* with it, and then gets his
> head cut off, for fuck's sake. And he was probably surprised.
>
Yeah, that was the ultimate honorable stupidity, despite his fairly
solid knowledge of the way the Lannisters do things. But somebody at
some point had to float out the Lyanna sickness story. I agree it
almost certainly wasn't Ned, though he could have allowed the rumor to
do its work once out there.
>
> Lyanna didn't die in Winterfell, or even get sick there. But I suppose
> for the whole thing to have an impact on the thinking of the
> Northerners, their own experience of sickness could be taken into
> account.
>
Again my memory fails me. Can't remember where she died, though now
that you mention it I remember her being taken home, so ignore that
previous worthless paragraph.
>
> > I would love to have a Stark actually
> > turn out to be an SOB (besides Sansa, who isn't villainous, just very
> > stupid, like her mother).
>
> Yes, well, we have evil zombie catelyn, who is like alive-Catelyn but
> a bit more bloodthirsty and a lot quieter. And we have
> up-coming-assassin-Arya, who promises to be consistently badass.
>
Catelyn is no Stark, never was. She's a wuss Tully. NOW she's
something of a Stark. Arya of course is very promising and I suspect
will be the only Stark that will be able to match the bad guys at
their own game, though the Buddhist-element of the training would seem
to indicate she won't be able to do most of the tricks unless she
distances herself from the emotional factor. I am guessing she'll get
around that, though.
> In fact, not many of the Starks are what you'd call nice, anymore.
>
Bull, Arya's the only one that has any mean in her. Jon is still a
Robb-wannabe, Bran and Rickon are good kids traipsing through the
wilderness (with just a hint of potential badness), and Sansa is only
barely learning the concept of dishonesty. I am guessing that she'll
become some manipulative Queen of Thornes in training, though I would
hope that Martin won't make this happen any time soon because after
all, she is dumb as a rock, and that just doesn't fade away overnight.
Other than Arya, they're all still pretty nice, in a wilderness wolf-
pack kind of nice...
> > Would be cool to have Rickon do some beasty
> > wild things like ripping someone's throat out, something like that.
> > Would not put this past Martin...
>
> I'll look forward to that. Maybe he'll end up being as uncontrollable
> as Danaerys's dragons.
>
I like that idea, and he has to do something to make Rickon
interesting. Else why let him live?
>
> He doesn't think much about the Greyjoy Rebellion, either, but he must
> have killed a bunch of guys and he took the ringleader's son as a
> hostage at the end of it. Of course this is dressed up as Theon being
> a "ward", which makes it okay.
>
I wouldn't think Ned would think twice about killing any number of
people, particularly outright fuckwits like the Iron Islanders. He
would think he was doing them a favor by taking their kid, kind of
like Madonna adopting Ethiopeans. Sure hope the Ethiopeans are a
little more appreciative...
> But the main point is, to pull off something like the Jon Targaryen
> switcheroo, Ned would have had to be guilty of considerably more in
> the way of deviousness and evil shenanigans than a little bit of
> lie-of-omissioning to his wife (for sixteen freaking years). Which is
> why, if the theory is going to pan out (and sadly I guess it will), it
> had to be Howland Reed taking care of most of the gory details, while
> Ned turned a blind eye.
>
This is conceivable, but makes Ned into someone like Robert. I guess
they weren't so different after all...
> You'll notice Ned never really thinks about Reed, and doesn't invite
> him along for the Lannister party or anything else much. Almost like
> he's trying to keep him out of the way so his conscience isn't
> troubled.
>
True. In fact Reed is only mentioned in reminescence. When the entire
Army of the North is called, the Frogeaters send...two kids? Yet Reed
has his own castle and presumably his own troops and was Ned's closest
supporter in the North. Why would he not come to help Robb?
>
> Fertile and highly-defensible, though. From what I recall, nobody has
> ever taken the place. Enemies just disappear into the bogs. Sort of
> like inconvenient unpregnant women who everybody is meant to think are
> Jon's mother.
>
Didn't get the fertile part, though I guess marshy land is better than
stones and ice for growing things. I kind of visualized it as
someplace nobody has ever taken because nobody has ever felt it was
all that worth taking. But that might just be me.
>
> Maybe not, although I'm pretty sure Ned kept the Boltons and their
> flaying pretty strictly under control. When they were his bannermen,
> all they had was their creepy flag. And even then, like you say
> elsewhere, they're not exactly typical Northmen. Now that Ned's dead,
> Bolton is free to spread his wings - and he does.
>
I think this may have been another issue that Neddy turned a blind eye
toward. I got the impression that he didn't keep a close eye on his
bannermen at all. In fact we hear almost nothing about him ever even
visiting them, probably as often as Robert visits him. I think Ned
treated them just as he would be treated. You take care of your own
business and nobody comes crying to me, then it's all good. I can't
imagine any of Roose's victims finding their way to Winterfell to
complain...
>
> He was *extremely* spiteful and vindictive, and known for his huge
> escalations in the face of battle / insult / pretty much anything -
> and all of this was especially true of his relationship with Tyrion.
> And he *told* Tyrion outright not to bring his whore to court.
>
Sure, I get that, but well... I got nothin'.
> I have no doubt that Tywin was going to have Shae killed and her body
> destroyed after fucking her. Otherwise she would have started nagging
> him for things, and telling people they had sex. Or, even worse, she
> would have wanted paying. It's entirely possible that he let her put
> on the chain of office after sex, then went to the toilet to let a
> load off before sticking her with his *other* sword. The non-meat one.
>
No doubt if he was fucking her he would have had her killed afterward.
Tough to believe he would let her wear the chain, though, as what
incentive did he have for that? That sounds a lot more like something
Tyrion would do. If she asked Tywin for his chain, his most likely
response would be "Fuck you, whore!" Seems an affectionate gesture,
and Tywin wasn't affectionate, to anyone.
> But seriously. He could then say "she was in custody for her own
> safety after the trial, I wanted to ask her what else she knew about
> Tyrion, and the stupid whore decided to strip off, get in my bed and
> wear my chain of office. I think I reacted quite rationally when I
> stuck my sword (by which I mean the one that's not my penis) into her
> head."
>
Okay, now that sounds silly. Custody? With all those dungeons? I know
Tywin could get away with just about anything he wanted, but this
makes him sound dumb, and he wasn't dumb. I might buy that he left the
chain after fucking her (something I am coming around to, though still
not entirely convinced), perhaps even with the thought of setting up a
frame like this. But the "in custody in my bedroom for her own
safety?" Come on...
> And Cersei would agree, of course. You saw how outraged she was when
> Shae was found in her father's room, and the way she made excuses for
> him. Not out of any belief in his purity, I think, so much as a desire
> to maintain the power-base of his reputation for herself.
>
Cersei would agree with Moon Pie if it meant something she already
wanted to do. But what the hell would Tywin care what Cersei agreed
with? He looked down on her almost as much as he did Tyrion.
>
> Harrenhal was given to a variety of Lannister loyalists, and the
> Mummers used it as a base of operations when they went out raping the
> Riverlands. So yeah, they were around, and they weren't picky about
> who they attacked. I mean, Gregor gets pissed off and kills a
> stablehand right in front of a packed jousting arena in King's
> Landing, and gets away with it. The Mummers are a fucking liability,
> but maybe as long as their bosses don't give a crap, they'll be okay.
>
> Well, until the last of them get cut to pieces. There's a pretty
> steady membership turnover.
>
Yeah, kind of like Batman Villain henchmen, though there's always new
ones to "Biff, Sock, Blammo!"
I think that Gregor and his gang spent the majority of their time in
Lannister held lands, which is just absolutely retarded.
>
> It would be funny if he plots and sneaks and plans and schemes and
> manoeuvres for another five years, and takes over the Vale and half
> the North, and then Danaerys arrives and he tries to insinuate himself
> into power and she just goes, "yeah, you're creepy," and kills him and
> divides up his land between her dragons for peasant-foraging.
>
I can't imagine her going for his creepy pedophile routine, which I am
sure he would put in rare form for her when she arrives. Dragon snack
definitely. Then she can give the Vale to Harry the Heir, whose story
I still can't figure out...
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> least was, I've heard he's improving). Of course I can't judge as well
> as I ought to be able to, since I have not read his books. I have only
> skimmed a few pages in the bookstore. To read them fully would require
> too much of an investment of time. Not to mention the fact that it
> might also require that I buy them. *shudder*
>
interview, though, and I just thought "Swirlie followed by an atomic
wedgie" Pretentious obnoxious little prick.
> But yeah, the bits I read had any number of problems, but they were
> technical, nothing to do with the story. Of course, they then made a
> movie that turned out so badly even Jeremy Irons, Robert Carlyle, John
> Malkovich and Djimon Hounsou failed to save it.
>
You know, though, after all the great movies all of these guys have
done, all have also done a fair amount of crap. I suspect they aren't
terribly critical about the scripts they get, just the dollar signs.
One of these movies pays for three or four indie projects, which all
four of these guys digs into on a regular basis.
> Anything else I might have to say about the guy is just bitter
> jealousy that my mum never owned a publishing company and printed my
> books when I was a kid. Because I totally had one about a giant space
> ant that was all kinds of awesome and I reckon with a hundred and
> thirty million bucks to throw into it it would have made a great movie
> too.
>
Fair cop, and as a bitter wanna-be writer myself I must admit that as
well. But I just think there is such better fiction out there, 19
years old or not, and to have stuff like this get lavish devotion then
fail makes the industry less willing to spend money on worthy
projects.
>
> Alastair Reynolds is pretty good, in terms of solid science fiction.
>
I will check him out. Is he still alive? <g>
>
> No, most of it is stuff we pieced together by common sense. Nobody
> would have believed Ned sired a bastard rather than walking out of the
> Tower of Joy with someone else's kid unless there was somebody who
> could have been the mother of said bastard (the conveniently dead
> Ashara Dayne). For them to believe she was the mother, dead or not,
> she would have had to have been visibly pregnant for months leading up
> to the event, or been in complete recluse of months, and she would
> have needed to have been connected, or at least in the same castle
> with, Ned Stark at some point around conception-time, which tends to
> narrow down the odds. Otherwise people would have talked. Unless
> Howland Reed drowned them all in Wylla's breast milk.
>
But we have ZERO recollection of said Ashara Dayne, right? And isn't
the Dayne clan pretty much all gone at this point? Since the Sword of
the Morning bought in the Rebellion we don't hear about them any more.
If she was pregnant, then whose kid? Another Robert bastard? If she
wasn't pregnant, then WTF? One thing I cannot see is Ned having
anything to do with the death of a baby, Howland Reed dirty work or
no.
> Also, for anyone to *miss* the fact that Lyanna was pregnant (because
> let's face it, it's amazing that only Ned and Howland would have found
> out), she would have had to live in the Tower of Joy being waited on
> only by Rhaegar for at least half a year, or worn some sort of
> elaborate belly-hiding armour, otherwise people would have talked.
> Unless, again, Howland bumped them all off.
>
Neither option makes any sense. Rhaegar most certainly wasn't waiting
on anyone, we can assume that much from the little we know about him.
Now slavishly devoted servants who he promptly executed? Maybe, but
what odds that in the chaos of the Rebellion none of them would get
loose? Reed would be in no position to take care of all these loose
ends, and I think we are supposed to believe he is a good guy tacitly
working with Ned's approval. Would throw that right out the window if
he was capping milkmaids.
> So either Ashara was pregnant and Howland Reed gave her an explosive
> abortion before throwing her off the parapet and eating the baby
> (perhaps washing it down with breast milk) ... or she wasn't pregnant,
> in which case why do people believe she was the mother of Ned's child,
> and did she really kill herself out of sorry because Ned couldn't
> marry her?
>
What kind of horrible self-esteem would you have to have for this?
Unless she hadn't actually met Ned yet? Lord of the North or not, he
wasn't a "reject me and I'll kill myself" worthy man. This is a
horribly frayed and loose end, and must be explained in some
heretofore incomprehensible manner that all of the sudden makes sense,
else the whole Jon Targaryen storyline takes a pretty dopey turn, not
to mention the whole Lyanna thing above...
> Indeed, if Ned hadn't fathered a child with her, or even fucked her
> (which I can't see Steady Neddy doing out of wedlock anyway, I'll give
> the Jon Targaryenists that much although I think Robb's adventures on
> the wrong side of the sheets might be a hint that even the noblest of
> Starks could falter from time to time, especially as young men), how
> close were they? Would they have gotten married if Brandon hadn't
> died? Is that reason enough for her to kill herself?
>
Ned sure didn't seem particularly devastated about her death/
disappearance and he seems like the kind that would still be nostalgic
about a past love. Maybe an arranged marriage from before the
Rebellion, but they hadn't actually met yet? I suspect that if Ned had
ever fucked anybody, he would remember it with such amazing remorse
that he would have to cut himself or something. Kill herself just
sounds wrong in all of this, though. But what else could have happened
to her?
>
> Not as far as I know. I don't think he's a Targaryen, though. Unless
> he's some cousin or nephew or something, related to Maester Aemon and
> that's why he's waiting for the Targaryen comeback. But no, I tend to
> think he's just a regular dude with no junk, just like he was for the
> Targaryens. Doesn't need to be related to them.
>
Doesn't the name sound awfully convenient? No other nomenclatures like
that in any houses we have encountered in Westeros, nor the Eastern
continent for that matter. I would be surprised if it didn't turn out
that Varys was at some point a Targaryen bastard or something who was
gelded for some crime his mother committed, something wicked like
that. Then because he still had some of the blood he was kept around,
assuming the lack of a cock made him less dangerous.
>
> > Roger Dorn was also the non-fielding Third Baseman for the Cleveland
> > Indians in Major League, the one whose wife bonked Charlie Sheen.
> > How's that for useless trivia?
>
> That's impressive. Even less relevant than my Star Trek joke, but
> impressive nevertheless.
>
You're welcome. Any other completely unrelated and worthless crap I
can help you with while Ilya is away?
>
> > Here is the obvious stuff that I was forgetting. Seems to point to
> > bastard Jon as well as anything. However Martin has been known to
> > curveball a big vision or two, and he might have something like this
> > in mind...?
>
> I can only hope.
>
I as well, not so much because I want a twist at the end but because I
just don't care that much for Jon.
>
> *sigh*
>
> This was about the only thing I could hope for regarding the Boy of
> Destiny plotline. That he would turn his back on all of it because of
> his oath, and screw up all the great plans and all the wonderful
> ecstatic visions the Thaerists were having. The result would be
> classic Martin fuckery. But maybe you're right. Maybe there is no
> hope.
>
I love it, and if he were to pull it off, the my hat's completely off
to him. Just don't see it, though.
>
> > If Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, then Robert looks more than a little
> > douchy, no?
>
> Well, yes. All the more so.
>
Double-douche!
>
> > I think Rhaegar was like Fabio. He waved his mane and the ladies
> > flocked over. Even Cersei was prepared to give up Jaime for him. I
> > think that Lyanna just wasn't into Robert because even then he was
> > loud, dumb, and selfish. She was probably prepared to forgive Rhaegar
> > his wife (who of course he never loved and was forced to marry) if she
> > was given the opportunity to "wake the dragon".
>
> Thank you for that mental picture. I will do my best to repay you for
> it, one day when you least expect it.
>
I already had the Welcome Dance! Twice!
>
> > Nah, I think that Tyrion just doesn't have it in him to forget about
> > Jaime. This will be part of the Jaime-redemption arc, trust me.
>
> Not forget him, sure. But he's done worshipping him.
>
I'll buy that. I think Tyrion's days of looking up at anyone
(figuratively, as he still has to look up to everyone literally) are
done.
>
> Well yes, I did say that he was involved in some way. We know he was
> involved in some way, because he helped spring Tyrion from prison.
>
At least that.
> Most of the rest of it most likely *was* coincidence, of which Varys
> probably took full advantage in his plan to do whateverthefuck to the
> Lannisters. Although how he took advantage is still unsure, because we
> haven't seen him since.
>
Don't believe in coincidence myself, particularly not in a tale as
well crafted as this one.
> For Varys to be the active instigator of most, if not all of the main
> points of this scene just ruins it.
>
I'll yield on him being the organizer of the whole thing, and I am
beginnin to cave in a bit on the Tywin fucking Shae thing, which I
think is the linchpin of your argument here.
>
> "Just happened" nothin'. Shae was dragged in out of the little serving
> girl role Varys set for her, and coerced into testifying against
> Tyrion. Tywin, being a giant cunt, took the opportunity to fuck her,
> desiring as he did to soil anything that was Tyrion's to the full
> possible extent. He was almost certainly going to kill her afterwards,
> because keeping her around would make no sense.
>
Agreed, but the timing? Tyrion was in stir for a while. What odds that
Tywin would be knocking boots on the same day? Surely Tywin wasn't
keeping her around for more than one night? He would kill her that
same night, almost certainly, and that's the same night that Jaime
decides to let Tyrion out? Nah, that's a big coincidence.
> Tyrion didn't "just happen" to get free, we know this. And he didn't
> "just happen" to know where Tywin's room was.
>
Sure, Varys took care of this, which is my point.
> Jaime *did*, however, "just happen" to tell Tyrion the truth about
> what happened to Tysha when they were youngsters, which was what made
> Tyrion go back and kill Tywin. Varys had nothing to do with that, and
> I'll wager that he had nothing to do with Tywin "just happening" to be
> on the can when Tyrion arrived, or Shae "just happening" to be in the
> bed with the Hand's chain around her neck. If Tywin had been sitting
> in the lounge room or lying in bed with Shae, it wouldn't have been
> quite as effective, but he might as well have been.
>
Okay, I'll certainly give on Varys not knowing what Jaime was going to
say, and I never said anything about Varys arranging for Tywin to be
on the shitter. That's real coincidence. Still not entirely prepared
to believe Varys had nothing to do with Tywin having Shae in his bed,
and I absolutely think that for Jaime to decide to let Tyrion go on
the same night as Tywin was fucking Shae, presumably to dispose of her
like a tissue paper afterward, that's not coincidence at all.
> As it is, we end up with Tyrion, bent on revenge, returning to the
> Hand's chambers through the secret whore-tunnel, finding his old whore
> in his father's bed, and then finding his father on the toilet, and
> killing them both. And it's awesome.
>
Agreed with the awesomeness.
> So we have a couple of coincidences (Jaime telling Tyrion about Tysha,
> Tywin being on the toilet), a few bits of Varys-planning (Tyrion
> getting free, being armed [or was that Jaime?], knowing where to find
> Tywin), and one giant bit of Tywin-cuntery (Shae being in the room).
>
Added to the timing, which was almost certainly Varys.
> As opposed to all of these things being puppeteered by Varys. Which is
> so gay that even gay would think it was gay.
>
Never particularly said that it was completely arranged by Varys. I
think he was of significant help, though.
>
> So the alternatives are either that Varys left her there, knowing that
> Tyrion would be coming and that it would tip him over the edge
> (although Tyrion by that point was going to kill Tywin anyway), or
> that she was under house arrest of some sort pending a flaying and
> death in typical Lannister reward for her services, and she decided to
> go wandering into Tywin's room, strip down and lie in his bed with his
> chain of office around her neck.
>
The wandering makes no sense of course, but I never suggested anything
of the sort. I still think it likely that Varys arranged for Tywin and
Shae to hook up, but I am prepared to yield on whose idea this was.
And considering Tywin's distrust of Varys it is unlikely that Varys
would be able to openly arrange this. It is certainly possible that
Tywin just said out of spite that he would fuck his dwarf son's whore
because "that'd show him!" but I think it is not a certainty by any
means.
>
> Also like we said, Varys did tell Tyrion where Tywin's room was (I
> seem to recall he "let it slip" when explaining that it was a secret
> tunnel for the Hand, leading back to Tywin's room), and that was
> likely no accident.
>
"Likely"? Come on...
> Tyrion went back, with killing on his mind, because of Jaime.
>
Given, and I'll certainly give that Varys could not have known that
Jaime would reveal this. However I would argue that even if he hadn't
revealed this, Tyrion seeing his abusive father pounding away at his
traitorous ex-consort would have been enough. Better as it was,
absolutely, but I think (and more importantly Varys thought) that
seeing the two of them together would have been the last straw.
> > Jaime certainly would not have wanted this, so who would have?
>
> Interesting thought about Jaime's opinion of his father. It wasn't
> high.
>
Even you can't believe that Jaime wanted Tyrion to kill his father.
NOTHING in the books would justify that. Didn't care for him, okay,
but wanted him dead? I don't think so.
>
> You're kidding. The fact that the whole thing was staged wouldn't
> affect its impact at all?
>
Not really, because the facts behind the staging were sufficient to
justify the action. All of the events leading to the murder took place
before, so the staging was just putting the proper motivation together
with the opportunity.
>
> Like I think I said in the original discussion on this, Tyrion doesn't
> kill Tywin because of Shae at all, or because of the trial. He kill
> *Shae* because of her multi-level betrayal (although if he'd been
> thinking clearly he might have realised that she had little choice -
> same as he had no hard feelings against Bronn).
>
Nope, saying Shae had nothing to do with it is over-simplification. If
Tyrion had come in there and seen his old man pounding away, even if
Jaime hadn't said anything to him, he would have done the deed. The
trial and years of abuse along with this outright betrayal would have
been enough.
> He kills Tywin because of Tysha. This is something Varys could not
> have orchestrated, even if he somehow happened to know about it.
>
I think he most likely did know about it, as it wasn't much of a
secret. After all Tywin gave her to the guards to fuck to death. He
didn't poison her drink and drop her in the river. He publicly
humiliated Tyrion, and that's the kind of detail someone like Varys
would take pains to find out about.
That said, I agree he did kill Tywin because of Tysha, because even
without Jaime's revelation, Tyrion hated Tywin most for this. Jaime
just clarified it. With the pain he already had from her death, then
the absolute betrayal of his current whore, it would have been more
than enough.
>
> I'm all about the grey area somewhere in the middle.
>
There's a dirty joke somewhere in there, but I'm too lazy to dig it
out.
>
> I'd hope not. It would dilute the effect a bit if any old stone dragon
> could be brought to life, rather than actual eggs being hatched. Plus,
> those stone dragon statues would be much bigger and tougher than
> Danaerys's ones, at least at the start. And it would sort of turn
> Martin's whole magical system on its head. I think about all
> Melisandre can really manage (on account of her being evil) is the
> occasional shoddy vision and the even more occasional assassin
> cunt-ninja.
>
Ah, my next DND character! Assuming I can go back in time about twenty
years and play DND again... Maybe a Cunt-Ranger? Cunt-Wizard? Evil
Cunt-Priest?
>
> It didn't help that all the Brienne point of view chapters were
> basically a boring-arse tour of the suburbs, with the occasional fight
> and mutilation and possible hidden-character-reveal thrown in to spice
> it up.
>
Those were just death. Boring POV, boring character, and most of the
revelations were of things we already knew about.
>
> If this was the Order of the Stick / AD&D universe, the black dragon
> would definitely be evil. But then, I think the more likely
> eventuality is that they're all evil. In that classic Martin way. I
> mean, seriously. They're at least semi-wild, they breathe fire and
> they eat people. Our anthropomorphised way of looking at the world is
> going to have to consider them at least nasty, if not downright evil.
> Danaerys seems to have good intentions and perhaps the best grip on
> the increasingly-slippery baseball bat of righteous claim, but she's
> still going to kill a lot of guys and there's going to be huge
> collateral damage.
>
I just say the black one because he's the biggest and already ate a
kid. I agree that they are all going to turn out to be nasty mothers,
and I sincerely hope that we get all of the problems Dany has
controlling them. We'll probably get that in the East, though, where
apparently kids aren't missed all that often... If the foreshadowing
is any hint, I would guess that the dragons will take out a lot of
friendlies along with the enemy (witness Harrenhall).
> I certainly don't think the dragons are going to be nice, and Danaerys
> isn't going to control them as much as she'd like.
>
Great opportunity for some Martin chicanery.
> I was hoping the third rider would be Lizard Boy, since his body was
> never found ... but maybe I was daydreaming.
>
Could be this fuckwit on the news over here. Kid's dad told him to go
hide in the attic, then let go a hot air balloon from his backyard and
told the newspapers that his son was up in it. Oh, woe is me, please
turn your cameras on... Turns out he is some kind of reality TV
junkie. I wish they would let him fly up in a hot air balloon, just
float it right on over to the Eastern Continent about lunchtime...
Ben
Arno
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:53:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben
> <frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> Maybe if he really wanted to angle them away from the possibility of
> pregnancy-complications, he could say something about an illness ...
> but even that strikes me as unnecessary elaboration, especially for
> someone like Steady Neddy. The man just can't tell a good lie, and we
> all saw how he took to court intrigue. He finds out Cersei and Jaime
> are having kids, and he *goes to Cersei* with it, and then gets his
> head cut off, for fuck's sake. And he was probably surprised.
A bit like asking for it. Here is a thought: Could he have been
suicidal? I don't think so, but I may be missingg something.
[...]
>> I would love to have a Stark actually
>> turn out to be an SOB (besides Sansa, who isn't villainous, just very
>> stupid, like her mother).
Indeed.
> Yes, well, we have evil zombie catelyn, who is like alive-Catelyn but
> a bit more bloodthirsty and a lot quieter. And we have
> up-coming-assassin-Arya, who promises to be consistently badass.
Well, UnCat is not really that much of a change in sanity or
general behaviour. But Arya bad? No. Maybe badass, but not bad.
So far one of tghe most rational characters in the books. Even
when she loses it ("is there Gold in the village..."), it is
perfectly approptiate IMO. (Yes, I like the faceless girl!)
> In fact, not many of the Starks are what you'd call nice, anymore.
True. Makes one wonder what they will do when the lanisters are
finally history.
[...]
> He was *extremely* spiteful and vindictive, and known for his huge
> escalations in the face of battle / insult / pretty much anything -
> and all of this was especially true of his relationship with Tyrion.
> And he *told* Tyrion outright not to bring his whore to court.
> I have no doubt that Tywin was going to have Shae killed and her body
> destroyed after fucking her. Otherwise she would have started nagging
> him for things, and telling people they had sex. Or, even worse, she
> would have wanted paying. It's entirely possible that he let her put
> on the chain of office after sex, then went to the toilet to let a
> load off before sticking her with his *other* sword. The non-meat one.
Another one that will not be missed. I was surprised by Shae though.
A whore should have better judgement and especially a better sense of
self-preservation. With that she would never have gotten into that
fix.
[...]
Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: ar...@wagner.name
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Of course, Ned wouldn't have to really lie about this. If the Jon
>> Targaryen Theory is to be believed, apparently the ominous delivery of
>> "he is my blood, ask no more" was enough to stop his own wife from
>> asking about his bastard child for the rest of her freaking life. If
>> anyone asked what happened to Lyanna, he wouldn't have to tell them
>> doodly squat about a fever. He wouldn't even have to tell Robert. He
>> could just look grim and shake his head and let their own imaginations
>> do the rest.
>
>Which is probably about as dishonest as he could have made himself be.
>I could see Catelyn being cowed, mostly because she was not too
>bright. However being a married man myself I can't conceive of a woman
>who wouldn't have wormed all the details of this out of her husband.
Catelyn may have been a bit of a waxy candle, but she was one of
Westeros' great worriers. And she clearly agonised over this one. I
mean, enough so that when something happened to Bran, she growled
about how it should have been Jon.
She would have gotten something out of Ned.
>> Lyanna didn't die in Winterfell, or even get sick there. But I suppose
>> for the whole thing to have an impact on the thinking of the
>> Northerners, their own experience of sickness could be taken into
>> account.
>
>Again my memory fails me. Can't remember where she died, though now
>that you mention it I remember her being taken home, so ignore that
>previous worthless paragraph.
Tower of Joy. Where Rhaegar had left her to go and get the rubies
hammered out of him at the Trident, leaving only a handful of
Kingsguard, who for some reason decided to stay there and guard her
even to their deaths (except those who didn't quite die, and Ned still
thinks pretty highly of all of them for some reason, even though they
had to have been almost as abusive of the Kingsguard post as Jaime
Lannister) ... I just don't get it.
>> In fact, not many of the Starks are what you'd call nice, anymore.
>
>Bull, Arya's the only one that has any mean in her. Jon is still a
>Robb-wannabe, Bran and Rickon are good kids traipsing through the
>wilderness (with just a hint of potential badness), and Sansa is only
>barely learning the concept of dishonesty. I am guessing that she'll
>become some manipulative Queen of Thornes in training, though I would
>hope that Martin won't make this happen any time soon because after
>all, she is dumb as a rock, and that just doesn't fade away overnight.
>Other than Arya, they're all still pretty nice, in a wilderness wolf-
>pack kind of nice...
Fair enough. I still think the realistic way to go with Sansa would be
for her to be found dead in a wine barrel one day, several years after
she was last seen playing hide and seek with Lord Robert. But then, we
have to just sit here and hope Martin doesn't go fully realistic (and
fully predictable).
I guess most of the leftover Starks look like badasses next to the
impossible saintliness of Ned, but that's an optical illusion right
there.
>> > Would be cool to have Rickon do some beasty
>> > wild things like ripping someone's throat out, something like that.
>> > Would not put this past Martin...
>>
>> I'll look forward to that. Maybe he'll end up being as uncontrollable
>> as Danaerys's dragons.
>
>I like that idea, and he has to do something to make Rickon
>interesting. Else why let him live?
Indeed. At the moment, even his value as a piece of emotional currency
(for random bad guy bullying Bran to kill, as I said, therefore making
random bad guy seem even worse) is limited by the fact that we just
don't know him or care much about what his problem is.
>I wouldn't think Ned would think twice about killing any number of
>people, particularly outright fuckwits like the Iron Islanders. He
>would think he was doing them a favor by taking their kid, kind of
>like Madonna adopting Ethiopeans. Sure hope the Ethiopeans are a
>little more appreciative...
I'm sure that's the social comment Martin was trying to make. *laugh*
>> But the main point is, to pull off something like the Jon Targaryen
>> switcheroo, Ned would have had to be guilty of considerably more in
>> the way of deviousness and evil shenanigans than a little bit of
>> lie-of-omissioning to his wife (for sixteen freaking years). Which is
>> why, if the theory is going to pan out (and sadly I guess it will), it
>> had to be Howland Reed taking care of most of the gory details, while
>> Ned turned a blind eye.
>
>This is conceivable, but makes Ned into someone like Robert. I guess
>they weren't so different after all...
Would certainly make the whole plot line more interesting from my
point of view. Or perhaps I should say "interesting, full-stop" on
account of the fact that (in spite of various people bemoaning the
fact that I missed the point of the whole story) I just don't find the
story of Jon's lineage and destiny to be all that interesting. I
started tuning the maudlin fucker out as soon as he got an albino
direwolf.
>> You'll notice Ned never really thinks about Reed, and doesn't invite
>> him along for the Lannister party or anything else much. Almost like
>> he's trying to keep him out of the way so his conscience isn't
>> troubled.
>
>True. In fact Reed is only mentioned in reminescence. When the entire
>Army of the North is called, the Frogeaters send...two kids? Yet Reed
>has his own castle and presumably his own troops and was Ned's closest
>supporter in the North. Why would he not come to help Robb?
In interesting question.
>> Maybe not, although I'm pretty sure Ned kept the Boltons and their
>> flaying pretty strictly under control. When they were his bannermen,
>> all they had was their creepy flag. And even then, like you say
>> elsewhere, they're not exactly typical Northmen. Now that Ned's dead,
>> Bolton is free to spread his wings - and he does.
>
>I think this may have been another issue that Neddy turned a blind eye
>toward. I got the impression that he didn't keep a close eye on his
>bannermen at all. In fact we hear almost nothing about him ever even
>visiting them, probably as often as Robert visits him. I think Ned
>treated them just as he would be treated. You take care of your own
>business and nobody comes crying to me, then it's all good. I can't
>imagine any of Roose's victims finding their way to Winterfell to
>complain...
Point.
In fact the Starks (ned in particular) were fairly silent on the
matter of the Boltons. They were enemies in the Good Old Days, I
recall that much - back when the Boltons really did flay people
(rather than just pretending they do, and continuing to do it in
secret, which is a subtly different thing), and the Starks were Kings
in the North, they had big old rumbles.
I guess the whole "being Stark bannermen" thing was just something
that didn't sit too well with them, and they were happy to wait for
their chance.
Interesting though, the dichotomy (or perhaps hypocrisy) between the
Boltons and the Cleganes.
>> I have no doubt that Tywin was going to have Shae killed and her body
>> destroyed after fucking her. Otherwise she would have started nagging
>> him for things, and telling people they had sex. Or, even worse, she
>> would have wanted paying. It's entirely possible that he let her put
>> on the chain of office after sex, then went to the toilet to let a
>> load off before sticking her with his *other* sword. The non-meat one.
>
>No doubt if he was fucking her he would have had her killed afterward.
I don't know, Tywin strikes me (us) as the sort of guy who loudly
denounces some acts as amoral, while having no trouble engaging in
those acts himself. I doubt anyone really believed he'd been celibate
since his cousin/wife died - although of course none of them would
have said anything of the sort, fearing his wrath. I also doubt Shae
was his first prostitute.
Perhaps the strongest reason for killing her straight after the sex
was the fact that she was pretty fucking stupid, at least as far as
her interactions with nobles were concerned. She might have been
pretty savvy as a camp follower, but as soon as Tyrion started giving
her nice clothes and then set her up as a maid, she became malcontent
and started being stupid. She couldn't have been depended upon to keep
her mouth shut after the trial, either about her part in it or about
her liaisons with Tywin.
Cersei would have killed her, in the (unlikely) event Tywin didn't.
But his does strike me as a hypocrisy capable of keeping Shae around,
unless he's leaving trails of dead hookers behind him everywhere he
goes. Shae was, of course, a special case.
>Tough to believe he would let her wear the chain, though, as what
>incentive did he have for that? That sounds a lot more like something
>Tyrion would do. If she asked Tywin for his chain, his most likely
>response would be "Fuck you, whore!" Seems an affectionate gesture,
>and Tywin wasn't affectionate, to anyone.
I don't know what that was about. Certainly not affection. It could
have been that it pleased Tywin to see the whore wearing the chain
that Tyrion had worn, a nice bit of symmetry. Plus, you know, naked
teenager wearing nothing but a chain, I guess she would've looked
kinda hot. *shrug*
There's alwayd the possibility that she put it on when Tywin took it
off, perhaps he took it off and went straight into the privy for his
Last Shit. Maybe he would have whaled the tar out of her when he came
back in to find her wearing it. Maybe not.
>> But seriously. He could then say "she was in custody for her own
>> safety after the trial, I wanted to ask her what else she knew about
>> Tyrion, and the stupid whore decided to strip off, get in my bed and
>> wear my chain of office. I think I reacted quite rationally when I
>> stuck my sword (by which I mean the one that's not my penis) into her
>> head."
>
>Okay, now that sounds silly. Custody? With all those dungeons?
She wouldn't have been thrown into a dungeon for playing ball with the
Lannisters. Sooner or later she would have opened her mouth at the
wrong time, or otherwise outlived her usefulness, but until then
certainly she would have been kept around as a servant.
> I know
>Tywin could get away with just about anything he wanted, but this
>makes him sound dumb, and he wasn't dumb. I might buy that he left the
>chain after fucking her (something I am coming around to, though still
>not entirely convinced), perhaps even with the thought of setting up a
>frame like this. But the "in custody in my bedroom for her own
>safety?" Come on...
Hm, but if you look, that's not what I said.
Tywin could have made any excuse he wanted for Shae's presence, in the
unlikely event that he decided to kill her right then and there.
Depending on how big the toilet-hole was, he could have thrown her
down there. Or dragged her into the secret tunnel.
The "custody" I referred to was Shae remaining in the service of the
Lannister household after the trial, for as much time as it took them
to decide to kill her, certainly not staying in Tywin's room. If Tywin
was caught with Shae naked in his rooms, he could easily have said
that he summoned her for more questioning, or to turn down his
blankets, or whatever the fuck he wanted, since she was a maid. And
she decided to strip off, and it offended him, and therefore she died
horribly in some way.
I find this to be not a stretch at all.
>> And Cersei would agree, of course. You saw how outraged she was when
>> Shae was found in her father's room, and the way she made excuses for
>> him. Not out of any belief in his purity, I think, so much as a desire
>> to maintain the power-base of his reputation for herself.
>
>Cersei would agree with Moon Pie if it meant something she already
>wanted to do. But what the hell would Tywin care what Cersei agreed
>with? He looked down on her almost as much as he did Tyrion.
I didn't say he'd care. But she'd agree and who would even whisper a
rumour to the contrary, if Tywin and Cersei Lannister agreed on
something?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
>> Maybe if he really wanted to angle them away from the possibility of
>> pregnancy-complications, he could say something about an illness ...
>> but even that strikes me as unnecessary elaboration, especially for
>> someone like Steady Neddy. The man just can't tell a good lie, and we
>> all saw how he took to court intrigue. He finds out Cersei and Jaime
>> are having kids, and he *goes to Cersei* with it, and then gets his
>> head cut off, for fuck's sake. And he was probably surprised.
>
>A bit like asking for it. Here is a thought: Could he have been
>suicidal? I don't think so, but I may be missingg something.
Heh. He just wanted to end it all, so he told Cersei he knew all her
secrets, then turned his back on her. Creative.
>> I have no doubt that Tywin was going to have Shae killed and her body
>> destroyed after fucking her. Otherwise she would have started nagging
>> him for things, and telling people they had sex. Or, even worse, she
>> would have wanted paying. It's entirely possible that he let her put
>> on the chain of office after sex, then went to the toilet to let a
>> load off before sticking her with his *other* sword. The non-meat one.
>
>Another one that will not be missed. I was surprised by Shae though.
>A whore should have better judgement and especially a better sense of
>self-preservation. With that she would never have gotten into that
>fix.
I think so too, but she was dreadfully stupid. Not that she had much
choice. She was pretty much doomed from the moment she first shagged
Tyrion. Once a commoner gets involved with a noble that way, it's all
over. Then she had no choic but to go to King's Landing, then she had
no choice but to hide out as a maid, then she (stupidly) got resentful
and greedy, and that was when she was dragged off by Cersei and Tywin
to testify against her little man.
And from then on, she was really in the shit.
Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
as if she'd had any choice.
C&J
chro...@gmail.com
wrote:
[...]
> Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
> landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
> as if she'd had any choice.
I haven't read any the scene in a while, but do we *know*Shae was
doing anything? It certainly looks like Tywin was fucking Tyrion's
whore, but is it possible she was just looking to try to climb up the
royalty-whore ladder?
Is it further possible Verys planted her there in order to manipulate
Tyrion in cleaning up loose ends for him?
Or am I just reading too many paranoid possibilities into things?
Arno
> On Oct 27, 10:55?am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi>
> wrote:
> [...]
>> Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
>> landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
>> as if she'd had any choice.
> I haven't read any the scene in a while, but do we *know*Shae was
> doing anything? It certainly looks like Tywin was fucking Tyrion's
> whore, but is it possible she was just looking to try to climb up the
> royalty-whore ladder?
That would be my guess.
> Is it further possible Verys planted her there in order to manipulate
> Tyrion in cleaning up loose ends for him?
> Or am I just reading too many paranoid possibilities into things?
Nice! Paranoid, but might just be the right level of paranoia....
Rob Wilson
> Tower of Joy. Where Rhaegar had left her to go and get the rubies
> hammered out of him at the Trident, leaving only a handful of
> Kingsguard, who for some reason decided to stay there and guard her
> even to their deaths (except those who didn't quite die, and Ned still
> thinks pretty highly of all of them for some reason, even though they
> had to have been almost as abusive of the Kingsguard post as Jaime
> Lannister) ... I just don't get it.
>
The Kingsguard was not abusive towards royalty. Was it possible that
Rhaegar married her in secret for some reason? Perhaps because he knew
there was an uprising forming. Or he knew that she was the mother of
the Quisach Haderach and must therefore be protected?
I think that making this particularly summation of the scenario less
sketchy would solve the whole Jon parentage question.
Ned and Rhaegar were lovers and Lyanna was contracted to have their
love-child! This is why Jon is Ned's bastard son. This is why Rhaegar
was so protective of Lyanna.
Ben
> Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
> suicidal? I don't think so, but I may be missingg something.
>
suicidal. Stick to your guns no matter what you experience tells you
that you are wrong kind of suicidal.
>
> Well, UnCat is not really that much of a change in sanity or
> general behaviour. But Arya bad? No. Maybe badass, but not bad.
> So far one of tghe most rational characters in the books. Even
> when she loses it ("is there Gold in the village..."), it is
> perfectly approptiate IMO. (Yes, I like the faceless girl!)
>
Interesting take on UnCat. I actually think she is more rational now
than she was pre-death, and certainly more interesting.
>
> True. Makes one wonder what they will do when the lanisters are
> finally history.
>
Silly, the Lannisters will never be history! Other than Cersei, I
would guess none of the other Lannisters are even going away (death,
banishment, etc.). Jaime's redemption arc is in full swing, Tyrion
clearly will be Hand again at some point or something even worthier,
and who is going to kill poor dopey Tommen? Also the daughter, who
will probably end up married to some Dornish cousin despite turning
out not to be a Princess at all (assuming at some point the obvious
fact that these kids are not Robert's will come out). The Uncle and
Aunt are generally good people along with the demented squire that
Cersei screwed out of his sanity. Nah, the Lannisters are not going to
meet their ends, deserved or not. Now the Freys OTOH...
>
> Another one that will not be missed. I was surprised by Shae though.
> A whore should have better judgement and especially a better sense of
> self-preservation. With that she would never have gotten into that
> fix.
>
She clearly wasn't very bright, as Chucky has mentioned. Ambitious but
never really understood the game she was playing.
Ben
Ben
wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 02:31:08 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> Westeros' great worriers. And she clearly agonised over this one. I
> mean, enough so that when something happened to Bran, she growled
> about how it should have been Jon.
>
> She would have gotten something out of Ned.
>
appears to be convinced that Jon is Ned's bastard. If retroactively we
find out that she did know his origins, I think that will ring very
false considering her POVs and what we know about her. But that she
didn't know seems hard to believe. They were in a castle in the middle
of nowhere, how many nights must she have said, "Neddy my dear, we
need to talk about Jon..." probably right after sex to loosen him up.
>
> Tower of Joy. Where Rhaegar had left her to go and get the rubies
> hammered out of him at the Trident, leaving only a handful of
> Kingsguard, who for some reason decided to stay there and guard her
> even to their deaths (except those who didn't quite die, and Ned still
> thinks pretty highly of all of them for some reason, even though they
> had to have been almost as abusive of the Kingsguard post as Jaime
> Lannister) ... I just don't get it.
>
Ned thinks very highly of the ones that died most of all. In fact
other than Jaime, he has nothing bad to say about any of the Targaryen
Kingsguard. Where do you get that they were abusive of the post? If
Rhaegar (the only sane adult Targaryen) directed them to guard her
unto their death, that was their duty. That seems par for the course.
I assume you are saying they should have been protecting Aerys or
Rhaegar or his kids? That makes sense, but we see on several
occassions where the Kingsguard have been directed to do things that
are not in the King's interest. I think their directive is to obey and
protect, and those two things sometimes are not in agreement.
>
> Fair enough. I still think the realistic way to go with Sansa would be
> for her to be found dead in a wine barrel one day, several years after
> she was last seen playing hide and seek with Lord Robert. But then, we
> have to just sit here and hope Martin doesn't go fully realistic (and
> fully predictable).
>
I think in Westeros, finding Sansa in a wine-barrel would be quite
realistic. Even Littlefinger would have to get annoyed by her at some
point, and I would certainly not put it past him to seal her up and
lock her in a wine cellar. Only his thought that she will net him
Winterfell at some point keeps that from happening. Oh, and the
pedophile perv thing...
> I guess most of the leftover Starks look like badasses next to the
> impossible saintliness of Ned, but that's an optical illusion right
> there.
>
Indeed. I still wonder at the incompetence of the Targaryens. Would be
astonishingly easy to manipulate Ned into serving his "rightful King",
and it took some real acts of depravity to convince him to rise up.
You'd think that Varys or somebody would provide some better advice.
Then again it appears that Aerys was not listening...
>
> >I like that idea, and he has to do something to make Rickon
> >interesting. Else why let him live?
>
> Indeed. At the moment, even his value as a piece of emotional currency
> (for random bad guy bullying Bran to kill, as I said, therefore making
> random bad guy seem even worse) is limited by the fact that we just
> don't know him or care much about what his problem is.
>
True, which is a bit odd considering that Martin has done such a great
job of making the kids sympathetic (except Sansa, who we certainly
know well). Rickon is almost an afterthought, which to me seems like
he is meant for some great future development.
>
> >This is conceivable, but makes Ned into someone like Robert. I guess
> >they weren't so different after all...
>
> Would certainly make the whole plot line more interesting from my
> point of view. Or perhaps I should say "interesting, full-stop" on
> account of the fact that (in spite of various people bemoaning the
> fact that I missed the point of the whole story) I just don't find the
> story of Jon's lineage and destiny to be all that interesting. I
> started tuning the maudlin fucker out as soon as he got an albino
> direwolf.
>
Well, I agree that Jon's lineage is not that interesting, mostly
because it isn't terribly original, which is what makes aSoIaF
special. I do hope for some interesting back-story on this, and
sincerely hope that Martin is pulling off something very elaborate
regarding this whole storyline, something that will make the readers
go "Whoa, didn't see that one coming!" I think this became very
unlikely when we were all given such a long period of time to examine
the minute details. Enough so that this would be very difficult to
switch unless he goes amateur-hour and says "Here's all the things you
didn't know about that I never alluded to during the story that change
everything." That seems even less likely than that he is going to be
somewhat unoriginal and reveal Jon as the heir, blah blah blah...
>
> In fact the Starks (ned in particular) were fairly silent on the
> matter of the Boltons. They were enemies in the Good Old Days, I
> recall that much - back when the Boltons really did flay people
> (rather than just pretending they do, and continuing to do it in
> secret, which is a subtly different thing), and the Starks were Kings
> in the North, they had big old rumbles.
>
Them and the Karstarks I remember going to war notably but I got the
impression that this was par for the course in the North back in the
day...
> I guess the whole "being Stark bannermen" thing was just something
> that didn't sit too well with them, and they were happy to wait for
> their chance.
>
But they were quick to rise up. I wonder why? I suspect it was just
because reporting not just to Ned but also to some southern King they
didn't know or care about didn't sit well. Rather this than any real
loyalty, like the Umbers, Mormounts, etc.
> Interesting though, the dichotomy (or perhaps hypocrisy) between the
> Boltons and the Cleganes.
>
Interesting indeed, and would somewhat set the table for Ned perhaps
being willing to do the dirty deed if it was something that was
absolutely necessary, which might make for something interesting in
the back story for Jon's birth after all.
>
> I don't know, Tywin strikes me (us) as the sort of guy who loudly
> denounces some acts as amoral, while having no trouble engaging in
> those acts himself. I doubt anyone really believed he'd been celibate
> since his cousin/wife died - although of course none of them would
> have said anything of the sort, fearing his wrath. I also doubt Shae
> was his first prostitute.
>
On that I'll agree. In fact he comments to Tyrion that having sex with
a prostitute, while distasteful, was understandable. The objection was
to keeping one as mistress or actually thinking about legitimizing the
relationship.
> Perhaps the strongest reason for killing her straight after the sex
> was the fact that she was pretty fucking stupid, at least as far as
> her interactions with nobles were concerned. She might have been
> pretty savvy as a camp follower, but as soon as Tyrion started giving
> her nice clothes and then set her up as a maid, she became malcontent
> and started being stupid. She couldn't have been depended upon to keep
> her mouth shut after the trial, either about her part in it or about
> her liaisons with Tywin.
>
Absolutely. However this also makes it sound not only petty and
vengeful, but also stupid to bang her in the first place. Who is to
say that if he was banging her, she wouldn't have just run off to tell
the tale in the hopes that she would net some profit. Maybe Tywin
believed himself such a remarkable cocksman that she would be too worn
out, but this seems a tactical mistake. It just overall seems foolish
for him to bring her into the Tower and fuck her, no matter what else
was going on.
> Cersei would have killed her, in the (unlikely) event Tywin didn't.
>
> But his does strike me as a hypocrisy capable of keeping Shae around,
> unless he's leaving trails of dead hookers behind him everywhere he
> goes. Shae was, of course, a special case.
>
I'd buy the hypocrisy, but not the stupidity. He was arrogant, sure,
but didn't take chances like this, or at least we never see him doing
it in another other context.
>
> I don't know what that was about. Certainly not affection. It could
> have been that it pleased Tywin to see the whore wearing the chain
> that Tyrion had worn, a nice bit of symmetry. Plus, you know, naked
> teenager wearing nothing but a chain, I guess she would've looked
> kinda hot. *shrug*
>
Sure, for Tyrion I would buy that being a motivator. But Tywin wasn't
looking for hot I think. Plus Tywin took the office of Hand very
seriously, this time and the last time. I just can't see him putting
up with this.
> There's alwayd the possibility that she put it on when Tywin took it
> off, perhaps he took it off and went straight into the privy for his
> Last Shit. Maybe he would have whaled the tar out of her when he came
> back in to find her wearing it. Maybe not.
>
This is the only way that it makes any sense to me. Heavy chain, Tywin
took it off, she put it on. Maybe she was even rifling through his
drawers.
>
> She wouldn't have been thrown into a dungeon for playing ball with the
> Lannisters. Sooner or later she would have opened her mouth at the
> wrong time, or otherwise outlived her usefulness, but until then
> certainly she would have been kept around as a servant.
>
But see again that sounds like they were rewarding her. For what?
Turning on Tyrion? It just sounds like a loose end, and Tywin wasn't
one for leaving loose ends floating about.
> > I know
> >Tywin could get away with just about anything he wanted, but this
> >makes him sound dumb, and he wasn't dumb. I might buy that he left the
> >chain after fucking her (something I am coming around to, though still
> >not entirely convinced), perhaps even with the thought of setting up a
> >frame like this. But the "in custody in my bedroom for her own
> >safety?" Come on...
>
> Hm, but if you look, that's not what I said.
>
Exactly what you said. I just added "in my bedroom". She was in his
bedroom, therefore that was a legitimate addition.
> Tywin could have made any excuse he wanted for Shae's presence, in the
> unlikely event that he decided to kill her right then and there.
> Depending on how big the toilet-hole was, he could have thrown her
> down there. Or dragged her into the secret tunnel.
>
But why? Why go through the hassle, just to bang a camp trollop? Just
to demean Tyrion further (in his own mind, note, as Tyrion should not
have ever been aware of this)? Seems hard to believe he would have
done all this, unless she was conveniently provided to him and he just
figured "Gotta kill her anyway, might as well have a little fun with
her first" I am still not convinced that she was there by his request
at all. With his knowledge I'll buy, but it just seems
uncharacteristic for Tywin to take this action so soon after she
betrayed Tyrion, with so many eyes still on him. Makes him vulnerable,
and he wasn't one to do that to himself.
> The "custody" I referred to was Shae remaining in the service of the
> Lannister household after the trial, for as much time as it took them
> to decide to kill her, certainly not staying in Tywin's room. If Tywin
> was caught with Shae naked in his rooms, he could easily have said
> that he summoned her for more questioning, or to turn down his
> blankets, or whatever the fuck he wanted, since she was a maid. And
> she decided to strip off, and it offended him, and therefore she died
> horribly in some way.
>
I'll certainly buy that, but the motivation for it, knowing that
excuses would have to be made, seems a bit wanting. I think that the
impression that Tywin regarded Tyrion highly enough that he felt he
needed to humiliate him (again just for his own sake, as Tyrion wasn't
supposed to find out) I don't agree with. I think that the point is
that Tywin continually underestimated Tyrion, right up until the end.
If you believe that your opponent is unworthy, you don't go to the
depths of taking his woman while he is in jail just for the sake of
humiliation. That stinks of something you would do to gain petty
vengeance against an opponent superior to yourself because you knew
you could never compete with him openly. In Tywin's mind, he had
already soundly defeated Tyrion, and beyond that Tyrion was never
worthy of such competition.
> I find this to be not a stretch at all.
>
I disagree, told you we could find something to argue about...
>
> >Cersei would agree with Moon Pie if it meant something she already
> >wanted to do. But what the hell would Tywin care what Cersei agreed
> >with? He looked down on her almost as much as he did Tyrion.
>
> I didn't say he'd care. But she'd agree and who would even whisper a
> rumour to the contrary, if Tywin and Cersei Lannister agreed on
> something?
>
But the point is the hassle involved. Cersei agreeing with his excuses
for her being there, why bother? Why bring her to the Tower? Why fuck
her in the first place? It just seems more in character for Tywin to
send somebody to kill her so she could never contradict her lies. He
had no attachment to her. This whole line of reason pivots on Tywin's
desire to humiliate Tyrion, that's the only way it makes sense, and I
think that's flawed logic. He didn't regard Tyrion highly enough for
this, and beyond that Tyrion would not know about it! When he
humiliated Tyrion in the past regarding his farmer/whore fiance, he
did it openly in public as an abusive life-lesson. That's much
different than sneaking her away and then screwing her, presumably to
drop her out a window. The motivations for those two events would not
be similar at all...
Ben
Ben
wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2009 17:22:48 GMT, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> I think so too, but she was dreadfully stupid. Not that she had much
> choice. She was pretty much doomed from the moment she first shagged
> Tyrion. Once a commoner gets involved with a noble that way, it's all
> over. Then she had no choic but to go to King's Landing, then she had
> no choice but to hide out as a maid, then she (stupidly) got resentful
> and greedy, and that was when she was dragged off by Cersei and Tywin
> to testify against her little man.
>
whore, a terrible life and one without any future. Given the
opportunity, the smartest whore in the land would have taken the
option she did. Agreed on the no options all the way through, until
she finally did have an option, then she chose...poorly.
> And from then on, she was really in the shit.
>
> Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
> landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
> as if she'd had any choice.
>
Agreed, but she was not exceptionally stupid. Greedy and short-sighted
certainly. But she wasn't a Rhodes Scholar, she was a camp whore!
However, given that the only choices she did have she made wrong, I
guess if she had been given more options, she could have made them
even more disastrously. No way to know now, the one really bad choice
(turning on Tyrion) followed by her decision to hop in bed with Tywin
(assuming she was all that involved in the decision it would be a
natural evolution of the first bad choice) are all that we really know
about her intelligence.
Ben
Ben
> chrom...@gmail.com <chrom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 27, 10:55?am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi>
> > wrote:
> > [...]
> >> Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
> >> landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
> >> as if she'd had any choice.
> > I haven't read any the scene in a while, but do we *know*Shae was
> > doing anything? It certainly looks like Tywin was fucking Tyrion's
> > whore, but is it possible she was just looking to try to climb up the
> > royalty-whore ladder?
>
> That would be my guess.
>
five-mile long thread. I agree that there is something very suspicious
about all of this.
> > Is it further possible Verys planted her there in order to manipulate
> > Tyrion in cleaning up loose ends for him?
> > Or am I just reading too many paranoid possibilities into things?
>
> Nice! Paranoid, but might just be the right level of paranoia....
>
Basically the argument boils down to whether Tywin was enough of a
bastard to actually screw his son's girlfriend while he was in jail
after dropping dime on him, which isn't unreasonable. The timing
however, I believe, stretches credulity... Chucky argues that it
lessens the impact of the scene if Varys was the puppet-master, which
may be true.
Ben
Ben
> On Oct 27, 1:51 pm, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
> The Kingsguard was not abusive towards royalty. Was it possible that
> Rhaegar married her in secret for some reason? Perhaps because he knew
> there was an uprising forming. Or he knew that she was the mother of
> the Quisach Haderach and must therefore be protected?
>
being pregnant with Rhaegar's child (assuming that this is the case)
and with the time it is difficult to tell if Rhaegar would have known,
since we don't know how long he was out fighting and away from the
Tower. I think the story leads you to believe that she was being
protected against Robert and Eddard coming to get her, but to leave
the Kingsguard for that seems unlikely.
> I think that making this particularly summation of the scenario less
> sketchy would solve the whole Jon parentage question.
>
I think we can be certain that this issue will bear quite a bit of
explanation, assuming that Martin actually finishes the series. You
can be certain that this will NOT be revealed in the next book. So
another ten years or so before we find the answer...
> Ned and Rhaegar were lovers and Lyanna was contracted to have their
> love-child! This is why Jon is Ned's bastard son. This is why Rhaegar
> was so protective of Lyanna.
That disturbing image was very unwelcome. You shall be compensated for
it in an unwholesome manner...
Ben
Chucky and the Fantabulous Webomophone
> I haven't read any the scene in a while, but do we *know*Shae was
> doing anything? It certainly looks like Tywin was fucking Tyrion's
> whore, but is it possible she was just looking to try to climb up the
> royalty-whore ladder?
Sure it's possible. I'm not sure what you're asking here, though.
These all look like different ways of phrasing the same thing.
> Is it further possible Verys planted her there in order to manipulate
> Tyrion in cleaning up loose ends for him?
Yeah, see, you kinda need to read the rest of the thread and the links
to the older thread about this very topic, because it is the point of
the whole discussion. This is pretty much exactly what was proposed,
and we were debating the pros and cons of it.
A pair of big cons for me were the fact that Varys putting Shae in
that position takes away a lot of the impact of what happened
(although this was not necessarily the case with Ben, who is weird),
and the fact that Varys didn't know Tyrion was going to be in Tywin's
apartment to see Shae, so the whole thing depended on puppetmastering
Tyrion and possibly Jaime as well as Shae, not to mention Tywin who
would likely have had Shae arrested and killed if he had found her
there before Tyrion, assuming he (Tywin) didn't know she was there.
> Or am I just reading too many paranoid possibilities into things?
I think the problem is you're not reading enough.
*smacks Chromdom on the back of the head*
C@w
--
But we love you anyway.
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Catelyn may have been a bit of a waxy candle, but she was one of
> > Westeros' great worriers. And she clearly agonised over this one. I
> > mean, enough so that when something happened to Bran, she growled
> > about how it should have been Jon.
> >
> > She would have gotten something out of Ned.
>
> I agree with that wholeheartedly, yet right up until she died she
> appears to be convinced that Jon is Ned's bastard.
Indeed. Exactly my point.
> If retroactively we
> find out that she did know his origins, I think that will ring very
> false considering her POVs and what we know about her.
Interesting. I mean, this wasn�t what I was saying, although I have
suggested in the past that Catelyn might have actually known Jon�s
origins. While it would make sense given the characters involved and
the reality of that sort of situation, it doesn�t make much sense
given some of her thoughts and reactions. I seem to recall having a
thread about this and there was more information there, but can�t be
bothered looking for it now.
But one way or the other, she would have gotten more information out
of him. What I was saying was basically that it�s unbelievable she
took his word for it when he said �he is my blood, ask no more�. I
mean, this was a woman whose husband brought home someone else�s kid.
You�d better believe she found out whether or not it was really his
kid.
The possibilities I see are:
1) Jon is Ned�s bastard.
1a) Jon is Ned�s bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
1b) Jon is Ned�s bastard and Catelyn never grilled Ned on the details.
2) Jon is not Ned�s bastard.
2a) Jon is not Ned�s bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
2b) Jon is not Ned�s bastard and Catelyn never grilled Ned on the
details.
2c) Jon is not Ned�s bastard, Catelyn kept on nagging Ned about it,
and he fed her a spectacular lie.
Let me say that b) is not really an option to me in either case, even
though the book at the moment is expecting us to believe 1b) was the
case (in order to spring a 2b) �surprise� on us). I�m not buying it.
She would, over sixteen years, have found out one way or another.
So either one of the a)s is correct, in terms of realistic writing.
Except we have these problems:
1a) doesn�t really match with Catelyn�s thoughts and point of view
chapters on the matter. 1b) is spelled out for us as the one we are
meant to believe. She clearly thinks, and we read, that she asked
about it and Ned gave her a line and she never asked about it again. I
just don�t believe this, it�s crappy writing.
2a), as I said above, doesn�t quite match with the books either.
The only feasible option for 2) is 2c), which goes against what we
(thought we) knew about Ned. I�m fine with being wrong about Ned, it
would be nice and chilling if it turns out that Ned�s painful nobility
and na�vet� leading up to his death were part of an attempt to correct
for the terrible lies and possibly more he has committed to keep Jon
safe. This at least is consistent with Ned�s memories.
I�m championing 1) more out of the belief that 2) is lame and
predictable and clich�d, though, so I have to say that I don�t think
1a) is necessarily a huge problem, it just means that Catelyn doesn�t
reflect on things very clearly. So an option 1c) needs to be found. I
just can�t think of one that allows for the realism of Catelyn asking
Ned questions for sixteen years, or the characters of Catelyn and Ned.
*sigh*
> But that she
> didn't know seems hard to believe. They were in a castle in the middle
> of nowhere, how many nights must she have said, "Neddy my dear, we
> need to talk about Jon..." probably right after sex to loosen him up.
Indeed. One way or another, it seems impossible to believe she
wouldn�t have found out for sure. But her thoughts and point of view
scenes seem to suggest that she never did. I just don�t buy that.
> > Tower of Joy. Where Rhaegar had left her to go and get the rubies
> > hammered out of him at the Trident, leaving only a handful of
> > Kingsguard, who for some reason decided to stay there and guard her
> > even to their deaths (except those who didn't quite die, and Ned still
> > thinks pretty highly of all of them for some reason, even though they
> > had to have been almost as abusive of the Kingsguard post as Jaime
> > Lannister) ... I just don't get it.
>
> Ned thinks very highly of the ones that died most of all. In fact
> other than Jaime, he has nothing bad to say about any of the Targaryen
> Kingsguard. Where do you get that they were abusive of the post?
It was a smarmy reference to the fact that if the Jon Targaryen Thaery
is true, what we have is Rhaegar sending a bunch of Kingsguard to
guard Lyanna and Jon in the Tower of Joy. Which seems to suggest that
these particular Kingsguard let Aerys (the King), Rhaegar (the heir),
and his legal wife and family (the succession) die.
Something like that, I would think, a decent Kingsguard would
question. And yet, they didn�t and Ned didn�t seem to care.
> If Rhaegar (the only sane adult Targaryen) directed them to guard her
> unto their death, that was their duty. That seems par for the course.
I�m not buying the idea that the Kingsguard are actually just basic
bitches of any royal family member who tells them to do whatever,
while the whole family dynasty collapses behind them. That seems more
like a Lannister Kingsguard trait.
But maybe I misread the whole concept.
> I assume you are saying they should have been protecting Aerys or
> Rhaegar or his kids?
Yes.
> That makes sense, but we see on several
> occassions where the Kingsguard have been directed to do things that
> are not in the King's interest. I think their directive is to obey and
> protect, and those two things sometimes are not in agreement.
In this case, the lack of agreement was disastrous. They would have
needed more than Rhaegar�s order, surely, to stand back and let the
entire Targaryen line be erased? They would basically have to have
believed his whole �Prince who was Promised� schtick, which meant they
would have known about Jon. So why did Barristan the Bold (or, for
that matter, any of the other Kingsguard who survived the fight),
never try to follow through on such a costly order?
Why, in fact, did Barristan go off to help Danaerys, instead of
putting two and two together and thinking, �Rhaegar wanted me to guard
something in this tower, and Lyanna died, but where did this baby come
from...?� Why did he not go to the Wall to follow his ultimate goal,
which he set out towards when he obeyed Rhaegar�s order to allow the
Targaryen line to be destroyed? Was it guilt over obeying this order
that would have seen Danaerys killed, unless she�d been lucky?
The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, we are expected to believe,
guarded the door on Rhaegar�s order while the entire royal family was
destroyed, including Rhaegar. If they didn�t know Lyanna was pregnant,
I fail to see what the fuck they were thinking by waiting around
there. If they did know she was pregnant and believed her kid was the
Promised One, why have they not said anything about it since then?
Well, they lack point of view chapters of their own, but I would have
thought that the surviving Kingsguard would have needed to be a part
of Ned and Howland�s conspiracy, at the very least. There�s no way
they could have known about Lyanna�s pregnancy, because it would have
spread or they would have tried to continue the orders that had
already cost so much life. But if they didn�t know, were they really
there � allowing the Targaryen family to be wiped out � on Rhaegar�s
order alone? Really? Fucking *really*?
> > Fair enough. I still think the realistic way to go with Sansa would be
> > for her to be found dead in a wine barrel one day, several years after
> > she was last seen playing hide and seek with Lord Robert. But then, we
> > have to just sit here and hope Martin doesn't go fully realistic (and
> > fully predictable).
>
> I think in Westeros, finding Sansa in a wine-barrel would be quite
> realistic.
Heh, I know. That occurred to me � and I like it.
> Even Littlefinger would have to get annoyed by her at some
> point, and I would certainly not put it past him to seal her up and
> lock her in a wine cellar. Only his thought that she will net him
> Winterfell at some point keeps that from happening. Oh, and the
> pedophile perv thing...
Quite so.
> > I guess most of the leftover Starks look like badasses next to the
> > impossible saintliness of Ned, but that's an optical illusion right
> > there.
>
> Indeed. I still wonder at the incompetence of the Targaryens. Would be
> astonishingly easy to manipulate Ned into serving his "rightful King",
> and it took some real acts of depravity to convince him to rise up.
Yes, well. It also seems amazing to me, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were in
wuv and he wanted to breed with her to produce the Prince who was
Promised, that Aerys was allowed to butcher Lyanna�s family. I mean,
Rhaegar was clearly completely unable to control his father.
Then we have the issue of Lyanna and Robert. Rhaegar was already
married, so Ned may not have been happy with the Targaryens even
before they killed his father and brother, depending on how much he
knew about Lyanna�s fling. And she was meant to be marrying Robert,
although she didn�t really want to, and yet Ned still went to war by
Robert�s side.
Weird stuff.
> You'd think that Varys or somebody would provide some better advice.
> Then again it appears that Aerys was not listening...
Yes. I guess Aerys was not the controllable type. Funny that Rhaegar
didn�t just ask Jaime to kill him, if Rhaegar was such a sensible
campaigner. Especially since in ordering half the Kingsguard to the
Tower of Joy to guard his girlfriend, he basically sentenced his wife
and family to death anyway.
> Well, I agree that Jon's lineage is not that interesting, mostly
> because it isn't terribly original, which is what makes aSoIaF
> special. I do hope for some interesting back-story on this, and
> sincerely hope that Martin is pulling off something very elaborate
> regarding this whole storyline, something that will make the readers
> go "Whoa, didn't see that one coming!"
That�s all I hope for.
> > Interesting though, the dichotomy (or perhaps hypocrisy) between the
> > Boltons and the Cleganes.
>
> Interesting indeed, and would somewhat set the table for Ned perhaps
> being willing to do the dirty deed if it was something that was
> absolutely necessary, which might make for something interesting in
> the back story for Jon's birth after all.
Yep, like I said before � it would definitely be interesting if Ned
had done all this evil shadowy stuff with Howland, and his later
stupid nobility was an over-correction from this.
> > Perhaps the strongest reason for killing her straight after the sex
> > was the fact that she was pretty fucking stupid, at least as far as
> > her interactions with nobles were concerned. She might have been
> > pretty savvy as a camp follower, but as soon as Tyrion started giving
> > her nice clothes and then set her up as a maid, she became malcontent
> > and started being stupid. She couldn't have been depended upon to keep
> > her mouth shut after the trial, either about her part in it or about
> > her liaisons with Tywin.
>
> Absolutely. However this also makes it sound not only petty and
> vengeful, but also stupid to bang her in the first place.
Yes, well. This is a guy who found out Jaime had arranged for Tyrion
to lose his virginity to a girl, and had said girl branded as a whore
before getting his entire regiment of guards to gang-rape her before
making Tyrion fuck her last. That�s not exactly clever, is it? I mean,
as far as a common girl and her family can make trouble for Tywin, so
too could being implicated with Shae have made trouble for him � ie.
no trouble at all, really.
Nothing Tywin does, no depth of stupidity or evil, surprises me when
it comes to hurting Tyrion. He hated Tyrion with an intensity that was
pretty much indistinguishable from insanity.
> Who is to
> say that if he was banging her, she wouldn't have just run off to tell
> the tale in the hopes that she would net some profit.
She probably would have. And Tywin probably knew it. Which is why I
wouldn�t have given much for her chances of survival � but he might
still have kept her around for a little while.
> Maybe Tywin
> believed himself such a remarkable cocksman that she would be too worn
> out, but this seems a tactical mistake. It just overall seems foolish
> for him to bring her into the Tower and fuck her, no matter what else
> was going on.
Like I said, never underestimate the hatred Tywin had for Tyrion.
> > But his does strike me as a hypocrisy capable of keeping Shae around,
> > unless he's leaving trails of dead hookers behind him everywhere he
> > goes. Shae was, of course, a special case.
>
> I'd buy the hypocrisy, but not the stupidity. He was arrogant, sure,
> but didn't take chances like this, or at least we never see him doing
> it in another other context.
What stupidity, really? The second Shae became an inconvenience, she
would have ceased to exist. Anyone who even suggested Tywin had
shagged her, or had heard her tell people he had shagged her, would
have had their families raped and murdered and raped again by Gregor
Clegane. Nobody would fuck with Tywin. You saw how he scared the shit
out of one guy who made a mild joke just by staring at him. Imagine if
the guy was caught spreading rumours that Tywin was a whoremonger?
> Sure, for Tyrion I would buy that being a motivator. But Tywin wasn't
> looking for hot I think. Plus Tywin took the office of Hand very
> seriously, this time and the last time. I just can't see him putting
> up with this.
Could�ve been the possibility below, then, which adds up to one more
in a pretty small list of coincidences, when you think about it.
> > There's always the possibility that she put it on when Tywin took it
> > off, perhaps he took it off and went straight into the privy for his
> > Last Shit. Maybe he would have whaled the tar out of her when he came
> > back in to find her wearing it. Maybe not.
>
> This is the only way that it makes any sense to me. Heavy chain, Tywin
> took it off, she put it on. Maybe she was even rifling through his
> drawers.
*nod*
> > She wouldn't have been thrown into a dungeon for playing ball with the
> > Lannisters. Sooner or later she would have opened her mouth at the
> > wrong time, or otherwise outlived her usefulness, but until then
> > certainly she would have been kept around as a servant.
>
> But see again that sounds like they were rewarding her. For what?
> Turning on Tyrion? It just sounds like a loose end, and Tywin wasn't
> one for leaving loose ends floating about.
All the useful little monsters in the employment of the Lannisters did
well out of it, until such time as they got cut loose. They got what
they wanted from her, in every sense, and then � sooner or later � it
would have been flaying time, just like with Alayaya.
> > > I know
> > >Tywin could get away with just about anything he wanted, but this
> > >makes him sound dumb, and he wasn't dumb. I might buy that he left the
> > >chain after fucking her (something I am coming around to, though still
> > >not entirely convinced), perhaps even with the thought of setting up a
> > >frame like this. But the "in custody in my bedroom for her own
> > >safety?" Come on...
>
> > Hm, but if you look, that's not what I said.
>
> Exactly what you said. I just added "in my bedroom". She was in his
> bedroom, therefore that was a legitimate addition.
No. The bedroom was where she and Tywin met up to have sex. She was in
custody, she wasn�t in custody in his bedroom, so your addition to my
point was not legitimate at all.
I imagine she would have been in �custody� in the servants� quarters
or somewhere of the sort, for the short time she remained alive at
all.
Like I said, this all took place within a 24-48-hour period of the
trial. It�s not like she had time to move all her stuff in.
> > Tywin could have made any excuse he wanted for Shae's presence, in the
> > unlikely event that he decided to kill her right then and there.
> > Depending on how big the toilet-hole was, he could have thrown her
> > down there. Or dragged her into the secret tunnel.
>
> But why? Why go through the hassle, just to bang a camp trollop?
Because he wanted to.
> Just to demean Tyrion further (in his own mind, note, as Tyrion should not
> have ever been aware of this)? Seems hard to believe he would have
> done all this,
It�s not hard to believe at all, if you just remember some of the
hateful, vicious things Tywin has done to Tyrion over the years.
Moreover, Shae�s presence meant he could have a screw without the
bother of finding someone to fetch him a prostitute, especially since
he had already alienated the Chataya crowd and it would have taken
some organising. Shae was actually ideal, as someone he already knew
would do anything for money, who he had a perfect excuse for killing
to keep quiet, and who would hurt Tyrion exquisitely by a) betraying
him in court and then b) screwing around with him with his own father.
He wouldn�t even have to pay her.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I�d have been surprised
if he *hadn�t* fucked her.
> but it just seems
> uncharacteristic for Tywin to take this action so soon after she
> betrayed Tyrion,
Why? A minute ago you were arguing that it was too long a time-frame,
now you�re arguing the opposite. Like I said, the whole thing happened
within a day or so. Why would he wait? He was probably horny after
seeing his deformed son get so humiliated in court.
> > The "custody" I referred to was Shae remaining in the service of the
> > Lannister household after the trial, for as much time as it took them
> > to decide to kill her, certainly not staying in Tywin's room. If Tywin
> > was caught with Shae naked in his rooms, he could easily have said
> > that he summoned her for more questioning, or to turn down his
> > blankets, or whatever the fuck he wanted, since she was a maid. And
> > she decided to strip off, and it offended him, and therefore she died
> > horribly in some way.
>
> I'll certainly buy that, but the motivation for it, knowing that
> excuses would have to be made, seems a bit wanting.
Not really. They wouldn�t have to make that many excuses. In fact they
probably wouldn�t need to make any at all. He didn�t keep his
reputation by making excuses, he kept it by doing what he wanted and
fucking up anyone to dare question or mock it.
> I think that the
> impression that Tywin regarded Tyrion highly enough that he felt he
> needed to humiliate him (again just for his own sake, as Tyrion wasn't
> supposed to find out) I don't agree with.
Highly? He *loathed* him. He may have considered him intelligent, may
even have registered on some subconscious level that he was worth
three Jaimes and a dozen Cerseis combined, but this would only have
enhanced his hatred.
> I think that the point is
> that Tywin continually underestimated Tyrion, right up until the end.
Yes, this is certainly true but it is in no way a counter-point to
anything.
> If you believe that your opponent is unworthy, you don't go to the
> depths of taking his woman while he is in jail just for the sake of
> humiliation. That stinks of something you would do to gain petty
> vengeance against an opponent superior to yourself because you knew
> you could never compete with him openly.
I doubt Tywin ever thought of it that directly � indeed, nobody who
would perform such an action really would, I think � but that comes
closest to the truth as far as I�m concerned.
> In Tywin's mind, he had
> already soundly defeated Tyrion, and beyond that Tyrion was never
> worthy of such competition.
No punishment or degradation would have been enough.
> > I find this to be not a stretch at all.
>
> I disagree, told you we could find something to argue about...
You don�t disagree, you�re just squirming to find some part of all
this that you can argue with and the closest you�ve come is something
you made up that I didn�t even say!
> But the point is the hassle involved.
There�s no hassle.
> Cersei agreeing with his excuses
> for her being there, why bother?
He probably wouldn�t bother making excuses. She probably wouldn�t have
ever found out. It seems pretty likely that Tywin had used prostitutes
before, and yet Cersei was shocked and offended at the idea that Shae
should be found dead in his bed. I think it�s safe to say he managed
to hide it all pretty easily.
> Why bring her to the Tower?
To fuck her.
>Why fuck
> her in the first place?
Because he wanted to. Because he hated Tyrion and he wanted to fuck
her because he was, as stated, a giant cunty hypocrite.
> It just seems more in character for Tywin to
> send somebody to kill her so she could never contradict her lies.
He could easily do that.
> He had no attachment to her. This whole line of reason pivots on Tywin's
> desire to humiliate Tyrion, that's the only way it makes sense, and I
> think that's flawed logic.
Then say something to convince me.
> He didn't regard Tyrion highly enough for
> this,
I think you�re way off. You don�t have to regard somebody highly to
fuck their girlfriend while he�s on death row. Especially if she�s the
one who helped put him there and you�re planning on shutting her up
for good sooner or later anyway.
> and beyond that Tyrion would not know about it!
So what? Tywin would.
And then there�s the possibility that Tywin would have then both
executed together. I don�t know, but it just strikes me as deliciously
Tywin-like (and the total, blatant injustice of it very
Lannister-like) to string her up beside Tyrion �for the crime of
slander�, and let Tyrion know in no uncertain terms that �I tapped
that� before pulling the handle.
No, don�t see it happening, but it wouldn�t have made me blink.
> When he
> humiliated Tyrion in the past regarding his farmer/whore fiance, he
> did it openly in public as an abusive life-lesson.
In public inasmuch as a regiment of guards were involved. And that was
because of something Jaime had arranged anyway, so others already sort
of knew about it. He had to take a strong and fairly public stance.
Who�s to say Shae wouldn�t have met the same end? After flaying her,
he could have cut out her tongue and shipped her off to service the
Bloody Mummers. Easily as breathing.
> That's much
> different than sneaking her away and then screwing her, presumably to
> drop her out a window.
See, there you go inserting presumptions again. I don�t think Tywin
would kill her that blatantly, not really. He�d be far more cruel.
> The motivations for those two events would not
> be similar at all...
Not similar. Identical.
C&J
Ben
<st.chu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 loka, 02:48, "chrom...@gmail.com" <chrom...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it further possible Verys planted her there in order to manipulate
> > Tyrion in cleaning up loose ends for him?
>
> Yeah, see, you kinda need to read the rest of the thread and the links
> to the older thread about this very topic, because it is the point of
> the whole discussion. This is pretty much exactly what was proposed,
> and we were debating the pros and cons of it.
>
> A pair of big cons for me were the fact that Varys putting Shae in
> that position takes away a lot of the impact of what happened
> (although this was not necessarily the case with Ben, who is weird),
Hey! I resemble that remark!
> and the fact that Varys didn't know Tyrion was going to be in Tywin's
> apartment to see Shae, so the whole thing depended on puppetmastering
> Tyrion and possibly Jaime as well as Shae, not to mention Tywin who
> would likely have had Shae arrested and killed if he had found her
> there before Tyrion, assuming he (Tywin) didn't know she was there.
>
Not to rehash, but I am coming around on the idea that Varys didn't
put this whole thing together. Unless Martin openly answers this
question (unlikely), I will continue to believe that Varys had a
significant role in coordinating the convenient timing of the whole
thing, not to mention the obvious things he did do (like help Jaime
break Tyrion out of jail).
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:27:26 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> of him. What I was saying was basically that it’s unbelievable she
> took his word for it when he said “he is my blood, ask no more”. I
> mean, this was a woman whose husband brought home someone else’s kid.
> You’d better believe she found out whether or not it was really his
> kid.
>
from her POV that she did think Jon was Ned's bastard, and to explain
that away would have to involve some heavy plot-wrangling. Alternately
that she would not know (or find out) is very difficult to believe, as
you point out.
> The possibilities I see are:
>
> 1) Jon is Ned’s bastard.
This would be a great plot-twist, as it were, to have what we are led
to believe actually be what happened. I think it unlikely, but it
would be unexpected and therefore might very well be the case.
> 1a) Jon is Ned’s bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
This would match up very well with her POV, but not so much with his,
brief though they were.
> 1b) Jon is Ned’s bastard and Catelyn never grilled Ned on the details.
I think this one can safely be thrown out. If he is Ned's, then it
makes infinitely more sense that Catelyn knew this.
> 2) Jon is not Ned’s bastard.
Almost certainly the case with the later focus on him, unless the
mother is somebody totally unexpected, which doesn't seem likely.
> 2a) Jon is not Ned’s bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
Again this would involve some pretty heavy wrangling on Martin's part,
as her POV seems to contradict this.
> 2b) Jon is not Ned’s bastard and Catelyn never grilled Ned on the details.
This seems to be the most likely case given the foreshadowing and the
POVs of these two characters. However it realistically seems difficult
to believe, with Catelyn's personality.
> 2c) Jon is not Ned’s bastard, Catelyn kept on nagging Ned about it,
> and he fed her a spectacular lie.
>
Possible, but given the source? That Ned could lie is tough, that he
could come up with an excellently constructed lie that stood up to
interrogation? Seems preposterous.
> Let me say that b) is not really an option to me in either case, even
> though the book at the moment is expecting us to believe 1b) was the
> case (in order to spring a 2b) “surprise” on us). I’m not buying it.
> She would, over sixteen years, have found out one way or another.
>
Agreed, she was no pushover, whatever else can be said about her.
> So either one of the a)s is correct, in terms of realistic writing.
> Except we have these problems:
>
> 1a) doesn’t really match with Catelyn’s thoughts and point of view
> chapters on the matter. 1b) is spelled out for us as the one we are
> meant to believe. She clearly thinks, and we read, that she asked
> about it and Ned gave her a line and she never asked about it again. I
> just don’t believe this, it’s crappy writing.
>
Guess I should have read your analysis a little before offering my
own. In any case I agree in the inherent conflict here. Either you've
got something that doesn't match up, or you have a poorly written
aspect of the storyline. Both seem difficult to swallow given Martin's
expertise...
> 2a), as I said above, doesn’t quite match with the books either.
>
> The only feasible option for 2) is 2c), which goes against what we
> (thought we) knew about Ned. I’m fine with being wrong about Ned, it
> would be nice and chilling if it turns out that Ned’s painful nobility
> and naïveté leading up to his death were part of an attempt to correct
> for the terrible lies and possibly more he has committed to keep Jon
> safe. This at least is consistent with Ned’s memories.
>
And there certainly is a strong tinge of guilt, not on the surface but
below that. I always figured it was the Rhaegar's kids thing, but this
would make sense. It seems out of character given what we know, but in
the end we don't know Eddard Stark all that well. Having his
eventually suicidal devotion to truth and nobility be in response to
something bad from the past that he is trying to overcome, I like that
idea...
> I’m championing 1) more out of the belief that 2) is lame and
> predictable and clichéd, though, so I have to say that I don’t think
> 1a) is necessarily a huge problem, it just means that Catelyn doesn’t
> reflect on things very clearly. So an option 1c) needs to be found. I
> just can’t think of one that allows for the realism of Catelyn asking
> Ned questions for sixteen years, or the characters of Catelyn and Ned.
>
I think given the options you presented, we either have 1a, which is
the best option given what we know but probably the least likely of
the real options even with the lameness; else 2b, the most likely but
also the least original and interesting, or your newly conceived 2c,
which I must ponder.
>
> Indeed. One way or another, it seems impossible to believe she
> wouldn’t have found out for sure. But her thoughts and point of view
> scenes seem to suggest that she never did. I just don’t buy that.
>
Contradiction city, I wonder if Martin will wiggle his way out of
it...
>
> It was a smarmy reference to the fact that if the Jon Targaryen Thaery
> is true, what we have is Rhaegar sending a bunch of Kingsguard to
> guard Lyanna and Jon in the Tower of Joy. Which seems to suggest that
> these particular Kingsguard let Aerys (the King), Rhaegar (the heir),
> and his legal wife and family (the succession) die.
>
Good point. It appears that the best of them were on the Trident with
Rhaegar, while Jaime (clearly the worst) was left to guard Aerys and
his children along with Rhaegar's family. We certainly have no mention
of Jaime having to deal with the other Kingsguard to kill Aerys...
> Something like that, I would think, a decent Kingsguard would
> question. And yet, they didn’t and Ned didn’t seem to care.
>
True, an interesting thought, as while Tywin is opening the gates and
Jaime is killing the king while Gregor is splatting Rhaegar's kids and
wife, these individuals are guarding Lyanna? Very strange...
>
> I’m not buying the idea that the Kingsguard are actually just basic
> bitches of any royal family member who tells them to do whatever,
> while the whole family dynasty collapses behind them. That seems more
> like a Lannister Kingsguard trait.
>
> But maybe I misread the whole concept.
>
You would think that they had some interpretive power, being that they
were the "best in the land" (at least up until Cersei starting
appointing them). The name alone would speak to their primary
function. However given that the Targaryens were known to boil or
roast those who didn't do as they were told, maybe these fellas toed
the line? Seems there is another story to be explained here.
>
> In this case, the lack of agreement was disastrous. They would have
> needed more than Rhaegar’s order, surely, to stand back and let the
> entire Targaryen line be erased? They would basically have to have
> believed his whole “Prince who was Promised” schtick, which meant they
> would have known about Jon. So why did Barristan the Bold (or, for
> that matter, any of the other Kingsguard who survived the fight),
> never try to follow through on such a costly order?
>
Maybe only the ones that stayed were told what they were doing there?
Seems strange, though, I'll agree.
> Why, in fact, did Barristan go off to help Danaerys, instead of
> putting two and two together and thinking, “Rhaegar wanted me to guard
> something in this tower, and Lyanna died, but where did this baby come
> from...?” Why did he not go to the Wall to follow his ultimate goal,
> which he set out towards when he obeyed Rhaegar’s order to allow the
> Targaryen line to be destroyed? Was it guilt over obeying this order
> that would have seen Danaerys killed, unless she’d been lucky?
>
I think Barristan is the easiest to explain. He would have happily
died at the Trident, but fate had it another way. He almost certainly
did not know about Jon-Lyanna (assuming this link is correct, which I
still think the most likely). It seems that his vows would force him
to protect the new king, but when he was separated from service it
freed him to try to honor his previous commitment, to protect a more
fitting royal family with the only member left. Guilt more than
anything would have sent him to protect Danaerys, who he certainly
knew was still alive.
> The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, we are expected to believe,
> guarded the door on Rhaegar’s order while the entire royal family was
> destroyed, including Rhaegar. If they didn’t know Lyanna was pregnant,
> I fail to see what the fuck they were thinking by waiting around
> there. If they did know she was pregnant and believed her kid was the
> Promised One, why have they not said anything about it since then?
>
Any of them that were there still around? I am trying to remember who
is left from that original Kingsguard. The group from the Trident
died, Jaime most certainly did not and does not know what the deal was
with Lyanna, and as I mentioned neither did Barristan. Oakheart is
dead, and he seemed particularly dense. Who else was there?
> Well, they lack point of view chapters of their own, but I would have
> thought that the surviving Kingsguard would have needed to be a part
> of Ned and Howland’s conspiracy, at the very least. There’s no way
> they could have known about Lyanna’s pregnancy, because it would have
> spread or they would have tried to continue the orders that had
> already cost so much life. But if they didn’t know, were they really
> there – allowing the Targaryen family to be wiped out – on Rhaegar’s
> order alone? Really? Fucking *really*?
>
Good point. I wonder if we will ever get a Barristan Selmy POV? We got
the one for Oakheart, and of the ones left alive, Barristan is the
only one we know anything about (besides Jaime, who we know too much
about, and clearly did not know). For the Kingsguard to remain there
while the kingdom burned around them, they would have had to know more
than we have been led to believe. Interesting really because under no
circumstances would Jon have been a legitimate heir, even if he was
Rhaegar's oldest son. Rhaegar was never king, so technically any of
Aerys' other kids would have been ahead of Jon, as would Rhaegar's
legitimate children. That all of these would have been allowed to
perish in favor of Jon could only mean that they did believe in the
prophecy as you mentioned, and you would absolutely think that
somebody would have mentioned it since then, especially with all the
madness of the Lannister regime.
But again, who's left to tell the tale? I can't think of anyone...
>
> > I think in Westeros, finding Sansa in a wine-barrel would be quite
> > realistic.
>
> Heh, I know. That occurred to me … and I like it.
>
You know something occured to me that I dismissed, but like as well.
This Mya Stone girl, the one that Sansa is learning how to act
bastardy from, how much better would the Stark clan be if she took
Sansa's place. Seems that the ole switcheroo has been done before
(like the Bolton bastard). There really isn't anyone around to argue
with this. Nah, won't happen, just letting my dislike of Sansa get in
the way...
>
> > Indeed. I still wonder at the incompetence of the Targaryens. Would be
> > astonishingly easy to manipulate Ned into serving his "rightful King",
> > and it took some real acts of depravity to convince him to rise up.
>
> Yes, well. It also seems amazing to me, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were in
> wuv and he wanted to breed with her to produce the Prince who was
> Promised, that Aerys was allowed to butcher Lyanna’s family. I mean,
> Rhaegar was clearly completely unable to control his father.
>
Which also seems strange. If Rhaegar was a good guy (which we have
been led to believe) and Lyanna was really in love with him (which
seems possible, though we have no proof of this), then Ned would have
been a natural ally for him. And the Targaryens were hardly above
killing each other. So why no Rhaegar vs. Aerys? Crossbow bolt to the
groin, anyone?
> Then we have the issue of Lyanna and Robert. Rhaegar was already
> married, so Ned may not have been happy with the Targaryens even
> before they killed his father and brother, depending on how much he
> knew about Lyanna’s fling. And she was meant to be marrying Robert,
> although she didn’t really want to, and yet Ned still went to war by
> Robert’s side.
>
I think the best explanation for this is that Ned genuinely did not
know about any relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar until the
rebellion was already over. It would seem he believed (as Robert did)
that she was being forced to be his mistress, something that Neddy
surely would not allow. Indeed this may have been the only thing that
allied the Baratheons and Starks, who otherwise seem incompatible.
Still astonishing to kill the senior Starks, unless there is something
more there, even for the Mad King.
>
> Yes. I guess Aerys was not the controllable type. Funny that Rhaegar
> didn’t just ask Jaime to kill him, if Rhaegar was such a sensible
> campaigner. Especially since in ordering half the Kingsguard to the
> Tower of Joy to guard his girlfriend, he basically sentenced his wife
> and family to death anyway.
>
That's an interesting insight into Rhaegar, who clearly cared more
about Lyanna than he did his legitimate wife and kids (multiple vs.
Jon singular). I wonder if we will ever hear the reason why Rhaegar
himself did not kill Aerys, which does not seem all that hard to
believe for the Targaryens.
>
> Yep, like I said before – it would definitely be interesting if Ned
> had done all this evil shadowy stuff with Howland, and his later
> stupid nobility was an over-correction from this.
>
I very much like this idea, which is growing on me like back-hair...
>
> Yes, well. This is a guy who found out Jaime had arranged for Tyrion
> to lose his virginity to a girl, and had said girl branded as a whore
> before getting his entire regiment of guards to gang-rape her before
> making Tyrion fuck her last. That’s not exactly clever, is it? I mean,
> as far as a common girl and her family can make trouble for Tywin, so
> too could being implicated with Shae have made trouble for him – ie.
> no trouble at all, really.
>
I'll buy that he wasn't that worried about the ramifications of it,
but I still think it unlikely he would do it just for the hell of it.
He was more manipulative than that, and he just didn't seem to have
anything to gain here.
> Nothing Tywin does, no depth of stupidity or evil, surprises me when
> it comes to hurting Tyrion. He hated Tyrion with an intensity that was
> pretty much indistinguishable from insanity.
>
Not sure I agree with that. He certainly despised him for being an
unworthy son and killing his mother who presumably Tywin cared about
(though who can tell with Tywin), but I didn't see that absolute
passionate hatred, enough to screw his girlfriend just to have the
pleasure of humiliating him, then telling him about it later? Would be
much more Tywin to make Tyrion watch...
>
> She probably would have. And Tywin probably knew it. Which is why I
> wouldn’t have given much for her chances of survival … but he might
> still have kept her around for a little while.
>
Nah, I think no matter what happened, that was Shae's last night among
the living.
>
> Like I said, never underestimate the hatred Tywin had for Tyrion.
>
Here's I think the dividing line on our opinions. I just don't think
this was an intelligent decision, and I don't think that Tywin hated
Tyrion enough to make him ignore reason.
>
> What stupidity, really? The second Shae became an inconvenience, she
> would have ceased to exist. Anyone who even suggested Tywin had
> shagged her, or had heard her tell people he had shagged her, would
> have had their families raped and murdered and raped again by Gregor
> Clegane. Nobody would fuck with Tywin. You saw how he scared the shit
> out of one guy who made a mild joke just by staring at him. Imagine if
> the guy was caught spreading rumours that Tywin was a whoremonger?
>
I agree, but why bother? I just don't think his hatred for Tyrion was
enough to make this a worthwhile risk. It almost seems tributary to
Tyrion, that he was so enchanted with this girl that Tywin had to find
out what she was carrying about between her legs, and under no
circumstances do I see Tywin paying this kind of tribute to Tyrion.
Otherwise she's just a whore, and it would make more sense to give her
to some lowly pig-boy rather than honoring her (and therefore Tyrion
by connection) with a roll in the hay. It just feels strange to me.
>
> > But see again that sounds like they were rewarding her. For what?
> > Turning on Tyrion? It just sounds like a loose end, and Tywin wasn't
> > one for leaving loose ends floating about.
>
> All the useful little monsters in the employment of the Lannisters did
> well out of it, until such time as they got cut loose. They got what
> they wanted from her, in every sense, and then – sooner or later – it
> would have been flaying time, just like with Alayaya.
>
But why bother with Shae? If she were to prove useful, then why
endanger he utility by giving her leverage (Tywin's juice). And if she
were useless, then why not be done with her? Again it just seems
strange.
>
> No. The bedroom was where she and Tywin met up to have sex. She was in
> custody, she wasn’t in custody in his bedroom, so your addition to my
> point was not legitimate at all.
>
Come on, of course I didn't mean that she was moving in! I was being
smarmy myself, not actually saying that she was going to be Tywin's
kept woman. I meant that she quite literally at that point was "in
custody in his bedroom" which I guess could be separated for clarity,
but nonetheless was true.
> I imagine she would have been in “custody” in the servants’ quarters
> or somewhere of the sort, for the short time she remained alive at
> all.
>
> Like I said, this all took place within a 24-48-hour period of the
> trial. It’s not like she had time to move all her stuff in.
>
Of course not. This is not worthy of argument, as what you are
replying to is not what I meant to say, though I understand the
confusion.
>
> > But why? Why go through the hassle, just to bang a camp trollop?
>
> Because he wanted to.
>
Thin, I think, very thin.
>
> It’s not hard to believe at all, if you just remember some of the
> hateful, vicious things Tywin has done to Tyrion over the years.
>
Yeah, but all were to openly embarrass or humiliate him, not in
private behind his back.
> Moreover, Shae’s presence meant he could have a screw without the
> bother of finding someone to fetch him a prostitute, especially since
> he had already alienated the Chataya crowd and it would have taken
> some organising. Shae was actually ideal, as someone he already knew
> would do anything for money, who he had a perfect excuse for killing
> to keep quiet, and who would hurt Tyrion exquisitely by a) betraying
> him in court and then b) screwing around with him with his own father.
> He wouldn’t even have to pay her.
>
Meh, could be an issue of convenience as you say, assuming that Tywin
was a whoremonger, which you seem to believe is certainly the case. I
still think that he would not deem her worthy of it, and the absolute
hatred that would have to be behind it I just don't see, though I'll
admit I wasn't looking for it on any of the readings I did. Maybe I
missed it...
> In fact, the more I think about it, the more I’d have been surprised
> if he *hadn’t* fucked her.
>
Still not seeing it as reasonable. Possible yes, but probable?
> > but it just seems
> > uncharacteristic for Tywin to take this action so soon after she
> > betrayed Tyrion,
>
> Why? A minute ago you were arguing that it was too long a time-frame,
> now you’re arguing the opposite. Like I said, the whole thing happened
> within a day or so. Why would he wait? He was probably horny after
> seeing his deformed son get so humiliated in court.
>
That's where I don't see the Tywin that you do. Making a lot of
presumptions about him that the reader doesn't know enough to confirm.
First, that he was a horny fellow (no evidence of that), that he loved
to bang whores (no evidence of that), that it would get him off to see
Tyrion humiliated (make him happy sure, but horny?). Can't recall
arguing that it was too long afterward, but the timing isn't essential
in any case. I just think that your assessment of Tywin's personality
doesn't necessarily have enough basis to be factual. I am not saying
that it might not be true, but I didn't read enough supportive
evidence to say that this was in character for him. As I've always
said, it is possible that this was who he was, but I don't think there
is enough in what we know about him to say that with certainty, which
leaves the door open for Varys's role to be significantly greater than
you are prepared to admit.
>
> Not really. They wouldn’t have to make that many excuses. In fact they
> probably wouldn’t need to make any at all. He didn’t keep his
> reputation by making excuses, he kept it by doing what he wanted and
> fucking up anyone to dare question or mock it.
>
Okay, true, but still seems like a hassle to me.
> > I think that the
> > impression that Tywin regarded Tyrion highly enough that he felt he
> > needed to humiliate him (again just for his own sake, as Tyrion wasn't
> > supposed to find out) I don't agree with.
>
> Highly? He *loathed* him. He may have considered him intelligent, may
> even have registered on some subconscious level that he was worth
> three Jaimes and a dozen Cerseis combined, but this would only have
> enhanced his hatred.
>
This is my point. You can't hate someone that white-hot unless you
show awareness of them as important. Screwing somebody's girlfriend
behind their back just to stick it to them is not something you do to
someone you look down on. It's something you do to someone that you
want to bring down. I sincerely believe that Tywin did not think
highly enough of Tyrion to need to do this. If as you say he loathed
him (something I agree with), then it would be strange for him to
immediately screw his girlfriend right after she betrayed him and sent
him to jail. That's the kind of thing you do to someone that has got
the better of you, not someone that you essentially just absolutely
destroyed.
>
> I doubt Tywin ever thought of it that directly – indeed, nobody who
> would perform such an action really would, I think – but that comes
> closest to the truth as far as I’m concerned.
>
I think that Tywin thought of everything directly. He was a cold
planner and we never see a single thing in the rest of the series that
he does without thinking.
>
> No punishment or degradation would have been enough.
>
I guess this is the pivot of the whole thing. I think this was way
more than enough, and just seemed extraneous and unnecessary. But this
is clearly an issue where we must agree to disagree.
> > > I find this to be not a stretch at all.
>
> > I disagree, told you we could find something to argue about...
>
> You don’t disagree, you’re just squirming to find some part of all
> this that you can argue with and the closest you’ve come is something
> you made up that I didn’t even say!
>
BS, I didn't argue against anything you didn't say, I just disagree
with your interpretation of Tywin's character. I certainly didn't make
anything up, though perhaps I gave you credit for understanding what I
was saying and shouldn't have. I don't squirm, and said right off the
bat that it was possible your interpretation of events was correct. I
still don't believe that to be the case, but I am prepared to believe
that it might be.
> > But the point is the hassle involved.
>
> There’s no hassle.
>
Sure there is, maybe not a lot, but certainly there is some.
>
> He probably wouldn’t bother making excuses. She probably wouldn’t have
> ever found out. It seems pretty likely that Tywin had used prostitutes
> before, and yet Cersei was shocked and offended at the idea that Shae
> should be found dead in his bed. I think it’s safe to say he managed
> to hide it all pretty easily.
>
Here you argue with yourself. Did he hide it? Or did he just scare
everybody and they didn't look into it? Or did he just not give a shit
what people thought? You've argued each of those, none of which appear
to agree with each other. What all of this says to me is that there
certainly was a hassle involved, and that is basically my argument,
that boffing Shae is not worth the hassle.
>
> Because he wanted to. Because he hated Tyrion and he wanted to fuck
> her because he was, as stated, a giant cunty hypocrite.
>
There's the rub, I just don't think he cared as much as you do. Not
that he wouldn't do it because he's a nice guy, or that having it be
Tyrion's woman wouldn't make it sweeter. It just seems above and
beyond, and a hassle, with the benefit being relatively small, unless
there are several elements to Tywin's character (which you take for
granted) that we don't have any real evidence to support.
>
> > He had no attachment to her. This whole line of reason pivots on Tywin's
> > desire to humiliate Tyrion, that's the only way it makes sense, and I
> > think that's flawed logic.
>
> Then say something to convince me.
>
I think that ship has sailed. Besides the fact that I've always
yielded that it is possible, I just don't think it's the driving part
of his character that you do.
> > He didn't regard Tyrion highly enough for this,
>
> I think you’re way off. You don’t have to regard somebody highly to
> fuck their girlfriend while he’s on death row. Especially if she’s the
> one who helped put him there and you’re planning on shutting her up
> for good sooner or later anyway.
>
Nah, I think I'm pretty close on this. In fact as this goes on I am
becoming increasingly sure that this supposition is right. Ironically
it means that you might very well be right in that Tywin did take her
to bed voluntarily without manipulation (which pretty much kills the
majority of this debate, in your favor). The only way this makes sense
is if Tywin regarded Tyrion highly enough that he would take great
satisfaction in treating his girlfriend as a Handi-wipe. This gesture
speaks to me as "See how much better I am than you, who treated this
girl as a human". This only makes sense if Tywin actually had great
respect for Tyrion, which I am beginning to believe might have been
the case. Despised him for his birth, and his deformity, but respected
him for his courage and his character. This is the kind of conflicted
opinion of someone that would force you to take these kinds of actions
(as well as the previous documented despicable actions Tywin did to
Tyrion). You don't hate someone that much unless they are worthy of
it.
So I guess I will yield on the argument about Tywin taking Shae to
bed. I think the hassle of hiding it and then disposing of the
evidence (which you appear to relish saying wouldn't have to happen)
would be well worth the feeling that Tywin would get from the act. In
fact I think all of this was motivated by Tywin's subconscious
knowledge that Tyrion was by far the best of his children, and almost
certainly a better man than Tywin himself. Thank you for bringing this
point to light, a much better argument than any that you brought out
openly.
>
> So what? Tywin would.
>
Only important given the above, which I think makes the case for you.
> And then there’s the possibility that Tywin would have then both
> executed together. I don’t know, but it just strikes me as deliciously
> Tywin-like (and the total, blatant injustice of it very
> Lannister-like) to string her up beside Tyrion “for the crime of
> slander”, and let Tyrion know in no uncertain terms that “I tapped
> that” before pulling the handle.
>
This would almost certainly have had to happen for it to make sense.
Tywin must have wanted to be able to put Tyrion's nose in it,
figuratively. "See, she was just a whore that would just as happily
bang me for money as you."
> No, don’t see it happening, but it wouldn’t have made me blink.
>
Agreed on that.
>
> In public inasmuch as a regiment of guards were involved. And that was
> because of something Jaime had arranged anyway, so others already sort
> of knew about it. He had to take a strong and fairly public stance.
>
Had to, but also wanted to, as he clearly planned this out rather than
improvising. Again something you do to lessen someone, which generally
means that is someone who was worthy.
> Who’s to say Shae wouldn’t have met the same end? After flaying her,
> he could have cut out her tongue and shipped her off to service the
> Bloody Mummers. Easily as breathing.
>
Sure, no argument there.
> > That's much
> > different than sneaking her away and then screwing her, presumably to
> > drop her out a window.
>
> See, there you go inserting presumptions again. I don’t think Tywin
> would kill her that blatantly, not really. He’d be far more cruel.
>
Perhaps, though I don't think she merited that much thought. And this
wasn't inserting presumptions to your argument as much as making them
in mine. Which also is quite different than making things up, BTW.
In any case, I will yield on the motivations behind Shae ending up in
Tywin's bed. Varys might very well have had nothing to do with it,
though I still think it convenient at the very least that Tyrion was
released on the same night that the liasion took place. Essentially I
still believe that Varys set the encounter between Tyrion and Tywin up
through Jaime and (the yield I mentioned) Tywin's unfortunate decision
(for him) to feel the need to humiliate Tyrion further. Timing is
everything...
Ben
Chucky and the Fantabulous Webomophone
Will come back to the rest of this when I get a chance, I think we're
pretty close on most of the important matters, and I agree with you on
the main point of contention regarding Tywin and Shae:
>> Like I said, never underestimate the hatred Tywin had for Tyrion.
>
> Here's I think the dividing line on our opinions. I just don't think
> this was an intelligent decision, and I don't think that Tywin hated
> Tyrion enough to make him ignore reason.
I think there are definite examples where we can see, in the story,
Tywin making foolish or non-optimal decisions simply because Tyrion
has suggested otherwise. And several of his interactions with Tyrion
show a hatred that is hot enough to border on the pathological.
I would suggest that you read those Tywin-Tyrion scenes again, but
that would be colossally arrogant. I think you read them fine the
first time. You didn't necessarily come to the same conclusion as I
did when reading them, and that is as much on me as on you.
However, my reading of the interactions between Tywin and Tyrion were
coloured - on the re-read, naturally - by the dual facts of Tysha and
Shae. Thinking about what Tywin did with them, not to mention Alayaya,
I can't help but read every other scene where Tywin scorns, abuses,
disregards, humiliates and flat-out tries to kill Tyrion (as when he
put him in a half-arsed vanguard with his mountain men) as being signs
of an extreme hatred. A hatred thrown into relief by his coldness in
every other facet of life.
And his psycho-sexual treatment of whores, perceived or otherwise
(yes, I have been watching "Criminal Minds", since you ask), leaves me
with no trouble believing he would use Shae in this way before deeming
her disposable. If anything, the biggest lump of salt to swallow along
with this idea is the fact that to fuck Shae, he would have to take
Tyrion's sloppy seconds. That, if nothing else, seems a bit difficult
to imagine Tywin doing. Although maybe he was used to that idea, if he
was familiar with whores.
Or, you know, he played the back nine. *shrug*
C@w
--
"My name is Jason Gideon. You are the UnSub. Prepare to do time."
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I have no beef with his imagination, but his writing is bad (or at
>> least was, I've heard he's improving). Of course I can't judge as well
>> as I ought to be able to, since I have not read his books. I have only
>> skimmed a few pages in the bookstore. To read them fully would require
>> too much of an investment of time. Not to mention the fact that it
>> might also require that I buy them. *shudder*
>
>Yeah, I have to agree, though I did sample. Saw the kid himself in an
>interview, though, and I just thought "Swirlie followed by an atomic
>wedgie" Pretentious obnoxious little prick.
Hahahaha, well, the dude was home-schooled, right? So he wouldn't have
had to experience the wedgie, in atomic varieties or otherwise. Which
may go a long way towards explaining his pretentious obnoxiousness.
The fact that he�s a multi-millionaire bestselling author whose book
was turned into a movie with Jeremy Irons and a whole wad of expensive
CGI in it might also help explain this. It�s hard to be humble in that
situation.
Uh, I guess.
>> But yeah, the bits I read had any number of problems, but they were
>> technical, nothing to do with the story. Of course, they then made a
>> movie that turned out so badly even Jeremy Irons, Robert Carlyle, John
>> Malkovich and Djimon Hounsou failed to save it.
>
>You know, though, after all the great movies all of these guys have
>done, all have also done a fair amount of crap.
Oh, certainly true.
But I would expect an ensemble like this to all appear together in a
good movie � you know, like some of those "Ocean's n" movies, "Burn
After Reading" (which I admit was weird rather than good, but still
OK), or some of those bizarre but enjoyable romps where huge names
play hilarious little cameo parts.
While they can appear in bad movies to pay the bills (and I imagine
they paid a buttload of bills out of their cut of "Eragon"), I was
sort of surprised to see them all team up for a bad one. Usually these
big names only team up for something great, like "I'm Fucking Ben
Affleck".
>I suspect they aren't
>terribly critical about the scripts they get, just the dollar signs.
>One of these movies pays for three or four indie projects, which all
>four of these guys digs into on a regular basis.
For sure.
>> Anything else I might have to say about the guy is just bitter
>> jealousy that my mum never owned a publishing company and printed my
>> books when I was a kid. Because I totally had one about a giant space
>> ant that was all kinds of awesome and I reckon with a hundred and
>> thirty million bucks to throw into it it would have made a great movie
>> too.
>
>Fair cop, and as a bitter wanna-be writer myself I must admit that as
>well. But I just think there is such better fiction out there, 19
>years old or not, and to have stuff like this get lavish devotion then
>fail makes the industry less willing to spend money on worthy
>projects.
*nod*
It gives fantasy and science fiction a bad name, after all the hard
work of good authors to break the genre into the mainstream and make
it worth movie moguls pumping their money into it. A few books /
movies like this and we�re back where we started.
>> Alastair Reynolds is pretty good, in terms of solid science fiction.
>
>I will check him out. Is he still alive? <g>
Pretty sure, he only started writing in the mid-late 90s as far as I
am aware. He does a lot of semi-strung-together space opera types of
stories, with galactic-scale settings and millennial plotlines � and
then he also does great short stories, with wacky twists and endings,
set anywhere from the early-mid 21st Century to millions of years in
the future when human beings exist as pure data spinning around in a
Dyson Sphere.
My main confusion with his work was that I read a few of his novels at
the start that were all set in the same universe, then another one
that could have been, then a series of short stories that were partly
set there and partly elsewhere, and by the time I realised it was not
all taking place in the same universe I had lost the plot completely
and was slowly unraveling mentally into a drooling idiot.
Situation normal.
>> No, most of it is stuff we pieced together by common sense. Nobody
>> would have believed Ned sired a bastard rather than walking out of the
>> Tower of Joy with someone else's kid unless there was somebody who
>> could have been the mother of said bastard (the conveniently dead
>> Ashara Dayne). For them to believe she was the mother, dead or not,
>> she would have had to have been visibly pregnant for months leading up
>> to the event, or been in complete recluse of months, and she would
>> have needed to have been connected, or at least in the same castle
>> with, Ned Stark at some point around conception-time, which tends to
>> narrow down the odds. Otherwise people would have talked. Unless
>> Howland Reed drowned them all in Wylla's breast milk.
>
>But we have ZERO recollection of said Ashara Dayne, right?
Right. Basically all we know (or think we know) is that she threw
herself off a tower.
>And isn't
>the Dayne clan pretty much all gone at this point? Since the Sword of
>the Morning bought in the Rebellion we don't hear about them any more.
>If she was pregnant, then whose kid? Another Robert bastard? If she
>wasn't pregnant, then WTF?
Exactly.
>One thing I cannot see is Ned having
>anything to do with the death of a baby, Howland Reed dirty work or
>no.
Yep.
I mean, the idea is that she had the baby, gave it to Ned and then
killed herself when he went off to his forced marriage to Catelyn. For
anyone to believe this, Ashara must have at least passed for pregnant
to the eyes of one or two chambermaids in the months leading up to her
suicide, and she probably would have had to have given birth. This is
where Wylla the amazing wetnurse presumably comes in, having
wet-nursed Jon as well as ... whoeverthefuck it was. Was it Little
Reed, or Bull-Helmet Baratheon who said he was Jon's "milk-brother"?
>> Also, for anyone to *miss* the fact that Lyanna was pregnant (because
>> let's face it, it's amazing that only Ned and Howland would have found
>> out), she would have had to live in the Tower of Joy being waited on
>> only by Rhaegar for at least half a year, or worn some sort of
>> elaborate belly-hiding armour, otherwise people would have talked.
>> Unless, again, Howland bumped them all off.
>
>Neither option makes any sense. Rhaegar most certainly wasn't waiting
>on anyone, we can assume that much from the little we know about him.
Perhaps, although the Jon Targaryen Theory paints him as the loving
and caring kind. Except of course where his wife and other kids were
concerned. They could go fuck themselves, the losers.
>Now slavishly devoted servants who he promptly executed? Maybe, but
>what odds that in the chaos of the Rebellion none of them would get
>loose? Reed would be in no position to take care of all these loose
>ends, and I think we are supposed to believe he is a good guy tacitly
>working with Ned's approval. Would throw that right out the window if
>he was capping milkmaids.
Clearly the Tower of Joy was completely deserted (which makes no
sense), or there were at least a few more witnesses to the pregnancy
or lack thereof, or Howland Reed is a Terminator-like killing machine
of implacable evil and endless dynamism.
And of course it's not just the Tower of Joy, unless Lyanna was hidden
out there for the entire stretch of her pregnancy, which is hard to
believe. If not, then there would have been witnesses (presumably
either in King's Landing where Rhaegar wooed her, or Winterfell where
Rhaegar visited [and wooed] her) to her pregnancy.
>> So either Ashara was pregnant and Howland Reed gave her an explosive
>> abortion before throwing her off the parapet and eating the baby
>> (perhaps washing it down with breast milk) ... or she wasn't pregnant,
>> in which case why do people believe she was the mother of Ned's child,
>> and did she really kill herself out of sorry because Ned couldn't
>> marry her?
>
>What kind of horrible self-esteem would you have to have for this?
>Unless she hadn't actually met Ned yet?
Hard for her to have his bastard (or for everyone to believe she had
his bastard) if they hadn't met.
>Lord of the North or not, he
>wasn't a "reject me and I'll kill myself" worthy man.
I don't know, he could have been. Theirs might have been a
star-crossed and amazingly intense love, severed when Ned's brother
was killed and Ned was sent home to score with his brother's wife,
night after night after long, cold, miserable night.
>This is a
>horribly frayed and loose end, and must be explained in some
>heretofore incomprehensible manner that all of the sudden makes sense,
>else the whole Jon Targaryen storyline takes a pretty dopey turn, not
>to mention the whole Lyanna thing above...
To be fair, pretty much any theory concerning Jon Snow's origins runs
into problems with the lack of consistent information about his early
life. Whether you want to argue for Jon Targaryen or against, there
are big plot-gaps that need explaining.
This is just something the Jon Targaryen Fundamentalist fringe seems
to forget on a pretty regular basis, so I have made it my job to
remind them.
>> Not as far as I know. I don't think he's a Targaryen, though. Unless
>> he's some cousin or nephew or something, related to Maester Aemon and
>> that's why he's waiting for the Targaryen comeback. But no, I tend to
>> think he's just a regular dude with no junk, just like he was for the
>> Targaryens. Doesn't need to be related to them.
>
>Doesn't the name sound awfully convenient?
Not if you think that the Targaryen name comes from Old Valyrian, and
"Varys" was probably at least a semi-common name from that period as
well. There can be more than one family with names hailing from that
period - it's one of the good things about Martin's nobility and
hangers-on. The way they name their kids after each other, in a very
realistic way. So there are lots of Jons and Roberts. The Old Valyrian
names are rarer, but they haven't died out.
>No other nomenclatures like
>that in any houses we have encountered in Westeros, nor the Eastern
>continent for that matter.
This is true, most of the people with Rhaegar-style names turn out to
be related, like Maester Aemon and that guy who became Master of Ships
... but it would add (rather than remove) a certain amount of realism
to the story for me, if there could be at least one or two people with
Old Valyrian names, who weren't Targaryens. I've always despised the
so-called Law of Economy of Characters, and this is a facet of it even
before we get into "Varys is Rhaegar!" territory.
>I would be surprised if it didn't turn out
>that Varys was at some point a Targaryen bastard or something who was
>gelded for some crime his mother committed, something wicked like
>that. Then because he still had some of the blood he was kept around,
>assuming the lack of a cock made him less dangerous.
Meh, I am indifferent at best towards this idea, borderline hostile at
worst.
>> > Roger Dorn was also the non-fielding Third Baseman for the Cleveland
>> > Indians in Major League, the one whose wife bonked Charlie Sheen.
>> > How's that for useless trivia?
>>
>> That's impressive. Even less relevant than my Star Trek joke, but
>> impressive nevertheless.
>>
>You're welcome. Any other completely unrelated and worthless crap I
>can help you with while Ilya is away?
I'll let you know.
>> Most of the rest of it most likely *was* coincidence, of which Varys
>> probably took full advantage in his plan to do whateverthefuck to the
>> Lannisters. Although how he took advantage is still unsure, because we
>> haven't seen him since.
>>
>Don't believe in coincidence myself, particularly not in a tale as
>well crafted as this one.
Seriously? There's a lot of coincidence, and none of it is so amazing
as to stretch the imagination. Look at some of the parties Arya
"coincidentally" runs into. Way more freakish that anything that might
be called a "coincidence" in the final scenes of Tyrion in King's
Landing.
In fact I would hesitate to call them "coincidences", because that
summons up images of unlikely combinations of events. The
"coincidences" surrounding Tyrion's last night in the Tower of the
Hand were really just "incidences".
>I'll yield on him being the organizer of the whole thing, and I am
>beginnin to cave in a bit on the Tywin fucking Shae thing, which I
>think is the linchpin of your argument here.
Hm, it may be the key factor in deciding how much of the whole thing
Varys arranged.
I repeat, though, that Tyrion killed Shae because she was there, and
he killed Tywin because of Tysha. Incidences, but not coincidences.
>> "Just happened" nothin'. Shae was dragged in out of the little serving
>> girl role Varys set for her, and coerced into testifying against
>> Tyrion. Tywin, being a giant cunt, took the opportunity to fuck her,
>> desiring as he did to soil anything that was Tyrion's to the full
>> possible extent. He was almost certainly going to kill her afterwards,
>> because keeping her around would make no sense.
>
>Agreed, but the timing? Tyrion was in stir for a while. What odds that
>Tywin would be knocking boots on the same day?
People in Tywin's line of work would generally knock boots and go to
the shitter at about that time of day, when the petitioning and other
stuff was over and done.
Tyrion hadn't been in prison more than a day or two after the trial,
after all.
>Surely Tywin wasn't
>keeping her around for more than one night?
Not much more, I wouldn't think. Maybe if the Gregor situation didn't
clear up and they couldn't just up and execute him, they would need
Shae to provide more testimony.
Or she might have been a really spectacular lay.
>He would kill her that
>same night, almost certainly, and that's the same night that Jaime
>decides to let Tyrion out? Nah, that's a big coincidence.
Not really. It was pretty much the night after the trial, before
Tyrion could be executed. Why would they do it any other time? This
isn't a coincidence either.
>> Tyrion didn't "just happen" to get free, we know this. And he didn't
>> "just happen" to know where Tywin's room was.
>
>Sure, Varys took care of this, which is my point.
This is about as far as I am willing to take the "Varys did it"
belief. Like I said originally, I am happy thinking of him as a sneaky
devious bastard who sprung Tyrion and made sure he could get out. I
draw the line at drugged-body-dragging, nude-body-chain-draping and
overly-complicated-Hand-of-the-King murdering.
As I said before, without Jaime telling Tyrion about their earlier
adventures with Tysha, Tyrion never would have gone back to kill
Tywin. So what was Varys's plan, exactly?
>> Jaime *did*, however, "just happen" to tell Tyrion the truth about
>> what happened to Tysha when they were youngsters, which was what made
>> Tyrion go back and kill Tywin. Varys had nothing to do with that, and
>> I'll wager that he had nothing to do with Tywin "just happening" to be
>> on the can when Tyrion arrived, or Shae "just happening" to be in the
>> bed with the Hand's chain around her neck. If Tywin had been sitting
>> in the lounge room or lying in bed with Shae, it wouldn't have been
>> quite as effective, but he might as well have been.
>
>Okay, I'll certainly give on Varys not knowing what Jaime was going to
>say, and I never said anything about Varys arranging for Tywin to be
>on the shitter.
For Varys to have planned to get Tyrion to kill Tywin, he would almost
certainly have needed Tywin to be in such a vulnerable position. If
he'd been almost anywhere else when Tyrion came through that secret
tunnel, Tywin probably would have been able to drop-kick him.
Not an amazing coincidence, no. An incidence - and not one Varys could
have planned for if he really wanted the murder of Tywin Lannister to
go this way. Too many moving parts to make this an effective plan.
>That's real coincidence. Still not entirely prepared
>to believe Varys had nothing to do with Tywin having Shae in his bed,
Feel free to believe as you will. I'm going to need some backing from
the text before I believe Varys had anything to do with it.
For example, maybe Varys thought Tyrion would take the crossbow and
sneak back up to the Tower of the Hand to gloat to his dad or
something, and then he would flip out when he saw Shae and kill them
both. But I just don't see it. The crossbow is a one-shot weapon. If
Varys put Shae in the bed and wanted Tyrion to kill one or the other
... well, I think even Shae would have been able to stomp Tyrion or at
least outrun him, if he shot Tywin. And shooting Tywin would have been
the only sane choice.
Maybe the plan was to dispose of a bunch of loose ends at once. Tyrion
goes and shoots Tywin. Shae runs out while Tyrion is winding the
crossbow, screaming blue murder. Tyrion is caught and killed. This
doesn't really mesh with what we have seen of Tyrion and Varys's
interaction, but I'm trying to help you out here.
End result: Tyrion and Tywin are dead, two pretty cunning Lannister
opponents to the Targaryens. Shae is cut loose, of no real importance.
Instead, Tywin was on the shitter, and Tyrion managed to strangle Shae
before she could do anything. Then shoot Tywin.
>and I absolutely think that for Jaime to decide to let Tyrion go on
>the same night as Tywin was fucking Shae, presumably to dispose of her
>like a tissue paper afterward, that's not coincidence at all.
Well, not a coincidence really, perhaps. Like I said, it doesn't mean
it was planned. It might have just been the only real night any of it
could happen. After the trial was concluded, Tyrion would be executed
and Tywin would get rid of Shae. This was the last night for any of it
to happen, so that's when it happened.
>> As it is, we end up with Tyrion, bent on revenge, returning to the
>> Hand's chambers through the secret whore-tunnel, finding his old whore
>> in his father's bed, and then finding his father on the toilet, and
>> killing them both. And it's awesome.
>
>Agreed with the awesomeness.
But it is only awesome as long as Varys's involvement remains subtle
and tasteful.
>> So we have a couple of coincidences (Jaime telling Tyrion about Tysha,
>> Tywin being on the toilet), a few bits of Varys-planning (Tyrion
>> getting free, being armed [or was that Jaime?], knowing where to find
>> Tywin), and one giant bit of Tywin-cuntery (Shae being in the room).
>
>Added to the timing, which was almost certainly Varys.
Nope, I don't concur on the timing as a part of this.
>Given, and I'll certainly give that Varys could not have known that
>Jaime would reveal this. However I would argue that even if he hadn't
>revealed this, Tyrion seeing his abusive father pounding away at his
>traitorous ex-consort would have been enough. Better as it was,
>absolutely, but I think (and more importantly Varys thought) that
>seeing the two of them together would have been the last straw.
As you say, it's possible ... but I can't see the sequence of events
as Varys planned it. What did he want to happen here? Considering the
weapons and opportunities Varys gave him ... and considering that
Tyrion was not going back to Tywin until Jaime spoke with him. I mean,
Varys's plan, if plan it was, failed right there. And that's just not
a Varys-plan.
>Not really, because the facts behind the staging were sufficient to
>justify the action. All of the events leading to the murder took place
>before, so the staging was just putting the proper motivation together
>with the opportunity.
I prefer the motivation and opportunity to come from the wronged
partner, not from some amazing nadless Jigsaw-style puppeteer.
>Nope, saying Shae had nothing to do with it is over-simplification. If
>Tyrion had come in there and seen his old man pounding away, even if
>Jaime hadn't said anything to him, he would have done the deed. The
>trial and years of abuse along with this outright betrayal would have
>been enough.
Maybe, but he never would have been there if it hadn't been for
Jaime's revelation. So much for Varys's plan.
>> I'd hope not. It would dilute the effect a bit if any old stone dragon
>> could be brought to life, rather than actual eggs being hatched. Plus,
>> those stone dragon statues would be much bigger and tougher than
>> Danaerys's ones, at least at the start. And it would sort of turn
>> Martin's whole magical system on its head. I think about all
>> Melisandre can really manage (on account of her being evil) is the
>> occasional shoddy vision and the even more occasional assassin
>> cunt-ninja.
>>
>Ah, my next DND character! Assuming I can go back in time about twenty
>years and play DND again... Maybe a Cunt-Ranger? Cunt-Wizard? Evil
>Cunt-Priest?
Half-Cunt Druid.
>> I was hoping the third rider would be Lizard Boy, since his body was
>> never found ... but maybe I was daydreaming.
>
>Could be this fuckwit on the news over here. Kid's dad told him to go
>hide in the attic, then let go a hot air balloon from his backyard and
>told the newspapers that his son was up in it. Oh, woe is me, please
>turn your cameras on... Turns out he is some kind of reality TV
>junkie. I wish they would let him fly up in a hot air balloon, just
>float it right on over to the Eastern Continent about lunchtime...
Bwahahahaha, I heard about that. What quality programming.
C&J
Ben
<st.chu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 marras, 18:28, Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I think there are definite examples where we can see, in the story,
> Tywin making foolish or non-optimal decisions simply because Tyrion
> has suggested otherwise. And several of his interactions with Tyrion
> show a hatred that is hot enough to border on the pathological.
>
those parts in quite a while. But in my hazy recollection, I do
remember some less than rational decisions from Tywin regarding
Tyrion, and can't seem to recall any regarding anyone else...
> I would suggest that you read those Tywin-Tyrion scenes again, but
> that would be colossally arrogant. I think you read them fine the
> first time. You didn't necessarily come to the same conclusion as I
> did when reading them, and that is as much on me as on you.
>
I think there might be a point of compromise, as I bowed to on the
other thread (mercifully shortened). I think your interpretation of
this relationship might be a little better founded, though I remain
confident that hatred of this vitality must be based on adversarial
hostility rather than contempt. Your points actually convinced me of
that.
> However, my reading of the interactions between Tywin and Tyrion were
> coloured - on the re-read, naturally - by the dual facts of Tysha and
> Shae. Thinking about what Tywin did with them, not to mention Alayaya,
> I can't help but read every other scene where Tywin scorns, abuses,
> disregards, humiliates and flat-out tries to kill Tyrion (as when he
> put him in a half-arsed vanguard with his mountain men) as being signs
> of an extreme hatred. A hatred thrown into relief by his coldness in
> every other facet of life.
>
Yeah, that was the first time I got the impression that Tywin actually
would take action leading to Tyrion's death (of course later this was
proved directly). That alone speaks to Tyrion being a threat more than
an embarrasment. After all, his twins incest was potentially a much
worse embarrasment, and he allowed that to continue (I refuse to
believe he was ignorant of this, as Genna and Kevan surely weren't).
> And his psycho-sexual treatment of whores, perceived or otherwise
> (yes, I have been watching "Criminal Minds", since you ask), leaves me
> with no trouble believing he would use Shae in this way before deeming
> her disposable. If anything, the biggest lump of salt to swallow along
> with this idea is the fact that to fuck Shae, he would have to take
> Tyrion's sloppy seconds. That, if nothing else, seems a bit difficult
> to imagine Tywin doing. Although maybe he was used to that idea, if he
> was familiar with whores.
>
I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I initially disagreed that this
made sense, if you see my meaning. Tywin taking her as something like
spoils for the victor does not speak to contempt but more to "In your
face", I got the better of you, which implies that this was something
worthy of celebration. The Tyrion as worthy adversary for Tywin
(though Tywin surely never admitted this even to himself) really
changes my whole opinion of the scenario. My original impression of
their relationship was lacking this vital element.
Ben
Ben
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 03:28:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> had to experience the wedgie, in atomic varieties or otherwise. Which
> may go a long way towards explaining his pretentious obnoxiousness.
> The fact that he’s a multi-millionaire bestselling author whose book
> was turned into a movie with Jeremy Irons and a whole wad of expensive
> CGI in it might also help explain this. It’s hard to be humble in that
> situation.
>
> Uh, I guess.
>
from. Perhaps in that situation, we all would be dicks. I am pretty
sure I would be, in fact I am pretty sure I already am and I have no
such qualifiers...
>
> But I would expect an ensemble like this to all appear together in a
> good movie – you know, like some of those "Ocean's n" movies, "Burn
> After Reading" (which I admit was weird rather than good, but still
> OK), or some of those bizarre but enjoyable romps where huge names
> play hilarious little cameo parts.
>
Yeah, but not these particular guys so much. I can't recall them
taking such roles. And none of them were cameos, all were pretty vital
to the plot. I know that doesn't really have anything to do with your
point. But there are several versions of this, fantasy movies with
really impressive casts, but based on crappy scripts (though usually
not based on bad fiction) and in a lot of cases mediocre CGI (which
Eragon was not guilty of).
> While they can appear in bad movies to pay the bills (and I imagine
> they paid a buttload of bills out of their cut of "Eragon"), I was
> sort of surprised to see them all team up for a bad one. Usually these
> big names only team up for something great, like "I'm Fucking Ben
> Affleck".
>
HaHa, that was classic! Sarah Silverman is hilarious. I think in some
cases the stars are in alignment (literally as well as figuratively)
and you just happen to get several major-league actors available and
looking for a check, which appears to be what happened here.
>
> It gives fantasy and science fiction a bad name, after all the hard
> work of good authors to break the genre into the mainstream and make
> it worth movie moguls pumping their money into it. A few books /
> movies like this and we’re back where we started.
>
After we made some great progress! However I have to say that I
believe science fiction might still be in the best position it has
ever been in due to some very solid successes. I still hope that we
can get some Asimov-Ellison-Phillip K. Dick-type stuff made into
movies, but I think the studios are not quite there yet.
Fantasy, on the other hand, continues to be a real movie orphan. Lord
of the Rings was perhaps the best opportunity this genre ever had to
break into movies on an impressive scale, but I think its impact has
faded with no worthy successors, and I believe that the studios have
decided for the most part that this was an aberration. The Narnia
movies have already slipped away (third one might not even be made),
which were another great opportunity (and pretty well done, for the
most part). We get one or two good fantasy movies a year. There really
aren't that many bad ones either, there just aren't that many period.
>
> Pretty sure, he only started writing in the mid-late 90s as far as I
> am aware. He does a lot of semi-strung-together space opera types of
> stories, with galactic-scale settings and millennial plotlines – and
> then he also does great short stories, with wacky twists and endings,
> set anywhere from the early-mid 21st Century to millions of years in
> the future when human beings exist as pure data spinning around in a
> Dyson Sphere.
>
Sounds like something I would dig. I will definitely check it out.
> My main confusion with his work was that I read a few of his novels at
> the start that were all set in the same universe, then another one
> that could have been, then a series of short stories that were partly
> set there and partly elsewhere, and by the time I realised it was not
> all taking place in the same universe I had lost the plot completely
> and was slowly unraveling mentally into a drooling idiot.
>
> Situation normal.
>
Yeah, I've been there. I am reading a collection of Harlan Ellison's
earlier stuff, savage fiction, I love it. I do need to start reading
books from the last twenty years at some point, though...
>
> >But we have ZERO recollection of said Ashara Dayne, right?
>
> Right. Basically all we know (or think we know) is that she threw
> herself off a tower.
>
And other than Mr. Reed, we don't have confirmation of anyone who was
there or might provide any confirmation of this, right? I still wonder
whether she is even dead. But Martin is not big on supposedly dead
people popping back up (Catelyn doesn't count as she really is dead).
>
> I mean, the idea is that she had the baby, gave it to Ned and then
> killed herself when he went off to his forced marriage to Catelyn. For
> anyone to believe this, Ashara must have at least passed for pregnant
> to the eyes of one or two chambermaids in the months leading up to her
> suicide, and she probably would have had to have given birth. This is
> where Wylla the amazing wetnurse presumably comes in, having
> wet-nursed Jon as well as ... whoeverthefuck it was. Was it Little
> Reed, or Bull-Helmet Baratheon who said he was Jon's "milk-brother"?
>
Wylla, who is still around, right? I just dug a little and she is
apparently still a servant to House Dayne. The Dayne thing appears to
be a wide-open sore on this whole mystery, as basically a bunch of
them have be in it up to their necks. Not just presumably dead Ashara
and Wylla, but pretty much everybody at Starfall, the only one of
which we know anything is Edric, and even him we know very little.
>
> Perhaps, although the Jon Targaryen Theory paints him as the loving
> and caring kind. Except of course where his wife and other kids were
> concerned. They could go fuck themselves, the losers.
>
Yeah, this is really a dichotomy of character. By all accounts of
those who knew him, Rhaegar was a great guy. But if that's the case,
there are some serious problems with his priorities.
>
> Clearly the Tower of Joy was completely deserted (which makes no
> sense), or there were at least a few more witnesses to the pregnancy
> or lack thereof, or Howland Reed is a Terminator-like killing machine
> of implacable evil and endless dynamism.
>
This made me laugh. "Wylla Manderly (she was a Manderly, wasn't she?),
ah'll be back" Of course this is silly, and as near as we can tell no
real effort was made to eliminate these witnesses. You would really
think that somebody somewhere would have told this story. My guess is
that what happened would be common knowledge in Starfall. So what,
nobody ever leaves there? Or comes to visit?
> And of course it's not just the Tower of Joy, unless Lyanna was hidden
> out there for the entire stretch of her pregnancy, which is hard to
> believe. If not, then there would have been witnesses (presumably
> either in King's Landing where Rhaegar wooed her, or Winterfell where
> Rhaegar visited [and wooed] her) to her pregnancy.
>
From the books, it appears that Lyanna was in the Tower all that time
(as she makes no noted appearance anywhere else). If Rhaegar was her
back-door man and she was his kept woman, this makes sense, though as
a Stark, it seems strange that Lyanna would put up with it, unless she
was hypnotized by the one-eyed dragon.
>
> I don't know, he could have been. Theirs might have been a
> star-crossed and amazingly intense love, severed when Ned's brother
> was killed and Ned was sent home to score with his brother's wife,
> night after night after long, cold, miserable night.
>
There is no evidence of this. In fact Ned doesn't even have any fond
remembrance of Ashara, which if they did have this relationship you
would think he would have. In fact he hardly thinks about her at all.
Even his relationship with Catelyn is warm at best.
>
> To be fair, pretty much any theory concerning Jon Snow's origins runs
> into problems with the lack of consistent information about his early
> life. Whether you want to argue for Jon Targaryen or against, there
> are big plot-gaps that need explaining.
>
Agreed.
> This is just something the Jon Targaryen Fundamentalist fringe seems
> to forget on a pretty regular basis, so I have made it my job to
> remind them.
>
Seems you have some support in that regard. Something I would like to
see come out of this is that Jon is revealed to be the Targaryen heir
(as everyone expects) but gets killed by the Others (perhaps after
becoming one of the three heads of the Dragon, perhaps before). This
type of non-happy ending would satisfy me while still allowing for the
Targaryen movement to have its due. To be honest, even at that point I
would not have the reaction to Jon's death that I did to Robb's. Might
even crack a smile.
>
> Not if you think that the Targaryen name comes from Old Valyrian, and
> "Varys" was probably at least a semi-common name from that period as
> well. There can be more than one family with names hailing from that
> period - it's one of the good things about Martin's nobility and
> hangers-on. The way they name their kids after each other, in a very
> realistic way. So there are lots of Jons and Roberts. The Old Valyrian
> names are rarer, but they haven't died out.
>
I looked into that a little bit and I think you are right. If anything
the Valyrian naming might have become more popular with the Targaryens
being in power. Theoretically Varys could have been named this way by
family perhaps looking for him to provide service to them, thus maybe
helping them climb the social ladder? Wouldn't explain the gelding,
though perhaps this was the only way for him to get this close?
>
> This is true, most of the people with Rhaegar-style names turn out to
> be related, like Maester Aemon and that guy who became Master of Ships
> ... but it would add (rather than remove) a certain amount of realism
> to the story for me, if there could be at least one or two people with
> Old Valyrian names, who weren't Targaryens. I've always despised the
> so-called Law of Economy of Characters, and this is a facet of it even
> before we get into "Varys is Rhaegar!" territory.
>
Have not heard that theory, and I would place zero value in it for any
number of reasons. I have to admit to observing that same Law (can't
remember where I heard that, long ago). But in this case it might make
sense that his family had some Targaryen link, though it might be
instead an old Valyrian link, which I think would serve both our
thoughts.
>
> Meh, I am indifferent at best towards this idea, borderline hostile at
> worst.
>
Perhaps a little further out on the gene pool might lessen the
hostility?
>
> >Don't believe in coincidence myself, particularly not in a tale as
> >well crafted as this one.
>
> Seriously? There's a lot of coincidence, and none of it is so amazing
> as to stretch the imagination. Look at some of the parties Arya
> "coincidentally" runs into. Way more freakish that anything that might
> be called a "coincidence" in the final scenes of Tyrion in King's
> Landing.
>
Arya's encounters are not coincidences at all, they are vital plot
elements. They do require a bit of disbelief, but because they are
vitally important to her development we can forgive them. I guess the
same could be said of Tyrion vs. Tywin.
> In fact I would hesitate to call them "coincidences", because that
> summons up images of unlikely combinations of events. The
> "coincidences" surrounding Tyrion's last night in the Tower of the
> Hand were really just "incidences".
>
Agreed, but the timing is convenient at best.
> >I'll yield on him being the organizer of the whole thing, and I am
> >beginnin to cave in a bit on the Tywin fucking Shae thing, which I
> >think is the linchpin of your argument here.
>
> Hm, it may be the key factor in deciding how much of the whole thing
> Varys arranged.
>
Agreed, and with the other thread I am coming around to your thought
here.
> I repeat, though, that Tyrion killed Shae because she was there, and
> he killed Tywin because of Tysha. Incidences, but not coincidences.
>
Tyrion killing them was certainly no coincidence, no argument there.
>
> People in Tywin's line of work would generally knock boots and go to
> the shitter at about that time of day, when the petitioning and other
> stuff was over and done.
>
> Tyrion hadn't been in prison more than a day or two after the trial,
> after all.
>
I think this might be where you have me on the timing issue. I
remember him being locked up for some time and can't be bothered to go
and verify it. If this is the case, then the timing is not quite so
coincidental as I thought.
>
> Not much more, I wouldn't think. Maybe if the Gregor situation didn't
> clear up and they couldn't just up and execute him, they would need
> Shae to provide more testimony.
>
> Or she might have been a really spectacular lay.
>
Both reasonably options. It can be assumed that Tyrion had been with
his share of whores, and he thought very highly of Shae's skills.
>
> Not really. It was pretty much the night after the trial, before
> Tyrion could be executed. Why would they do it any other time? This
> isn't a coincidence either.
>
Again a timing issue, and probably the vital element of my thought
process that appears to have been incorrect.
>
> This is about as far as I am willing to take the "Varys did it"
> belief. Like I said originally, I am happy thinking of him as a sneaky
> devious bastard who sprung Tyrion and made sure he could get out. I
> draw the line at drugged-body-dragging, nude-body-chain-draping and
> overly-complicated-Hand-of-the-King murdering.
>
Yeah, I think I might be in agreement with you here, after much
wrangling. He certainly was involved, but not the plot mastermind I
had originally envisioned. I hate to rob you of the argument, but I am
prepared to admit when evidence does not support my opinion.
> As I said before, without Jaime telling Tyrion about their earlier
> adventures with Tysha, Tyrion never would have gone back to kill
> Tywin. So what was Varys's plan, exactly?
>
Not sure, but inevitably there would have been a great wedge driven
between Lannisters, Jaime helping Tyrion escape would have done that
alone, and it's impossible to believe that Tywin would not have found
this out. Given your evidence, it seems that Tyrion killing Tywin and
essentially banishing himself would have been totally unexpected (but
clearly quite welcome) to Varys.
>
> For Varys to have planned to get Tyrion to kill Tywin, he would almost
> certainly have needed Tywin to be in such a vulnerable position. If
> he'd been almost anywhere else when Tyrion came through that secret
> tunnel, Tywin probably would have been able to drop-kick him.
>
Agreed, though perhaps not as obvious. Tyrion actually turned out to
be something of a fighter himself in the Mountains of the Moon.
However it can certainly be given that in a fair fight, Tywin beats
Tyrion 99% of the time.
> Not an amazing coincidence, no. An incidence - and not one Varys could
> have planned for if he really wanted the murder of Tywin Lannister to
> go this way. Too many moving parts to make this an effective plan.
>
Point conceded.
>
> Feel free to believe as you will. I'm going to need some backing from
> the text before I believe Varys had anything to do with it.
>
> For example, maybe Varys thought Tyrion would take the crossbow and
> sneak back up to the Tower of the Hand to gloat to his dad or
> something, and then he would flip out when he saw Shae and kill them
> both. But I just don't see it. The crossbow is a one-shot weapon. If
> Varys put Shae in the bed and wanted Tyrion to kill one or the other
> ... well, I think even Shae would have been able to stomp Tyrion or at
> least outrun him, if he shot Tywin. And shooting Tywin would have been
> the only sane choice.
>
I actually forgot about the crossbow being conveniently available.
Maybe Varys hoped one or the other might kill the other, which would
leave whoever was left standing in disgrace? Thin, though, I'll admit.
> Maybe the plan was to dispose of a bunch of loose ends at once. Tyrion
> goes and shoots Tywin. Shae runs out while Tyrion is winding the
> crossbow, screaming blue murder. Tyrion is caught and killed. This
> doesn't really mesh with what we have seen of Tyrion and Varys's
> interaction, but I'm trying to help you out here.
>
And unfortunately for my previous case I agree with you here. The only
way this makes sense is if Tyrion would have been angry enough to kill
Tywin, which it seems would be omniscient on Varys' part.
> End result: Tyrion and Tywin are dead, two pretty cunning Lannister
> opponents to the Targaryens. Shae is cut loose, of no real importance.
>
Or either is dead, removing a very real threat in either case,
presumably making the survivor look bad.
I guess the only issue I have left to tenuously stand on is that
Tyrion was pointed in the direction of Tywin, which would seem to make
a conflict inevitable. Since Jaime had no reason to do this, it would
appear that Varys was responsible for this. The other option is that
Tyrion knew the tunnels well enough to purposefully head toward the
Tower after hearing Jaime's story. This is certainly possible, and
perhaps even probable.
>
> Well, not a coincidence really, perhaps. Like I said, it doesn't mean
> it was planned. It might have just been the only real night any of it
> could happen. After the trial was concluded, Tyrion would be executed
> and Tywin would get rid of Shae. This was the last night for any of it
> to happen, so that's when it happened.
>
Timing, as previously admitted, might not be the strongest part of my
argument here.
>
> >Agreed with the awesomeness.
>
> But it is only awesome as long as Varys's involvement remains subtle
> and tasteful.
>
Nope, still awesome, though perhaps reduced in awesomeness.
>
> >Added to the timing, which was almost certainly Varys.
>
> Nope, I don't concur on the timing as a part of this.
>
Not worth arguing about, but I think that Varys could have been this
involved. Don't have enough evidence to support that against your
barrage. In any case it isn't terribly important either way.
>
> As you say, it's possible ... but I can't see the sequence of events
> as Varys planned it. What did he want to happen here? Considering the
> weapons and opportunities Varys gave him ... and considering that
> Tyrion was not going back to Tywin until Jaime spoke with him. I mean,
> Varys's plan, if plan it was, failed right there. And that's just not
> a Varys-plan.
>
Unless Varys' escape route would lead to the confrontation, which I
suspect is the case. Tyrion had no real knowledge of this tunnel
system (or at least the dungeon part of it). From my memory
(admittedly not always perfectly reliable), it seems that Varys might
have guided Tyrion to leave this way. Put those two together and you
are going to have some fireworks, no matter what Jaime said. I know
that it is pivotal to your perception of events that Tyrion went there
on his own, but I think it quite likely that Varys had something to do
with him heading in instead of out (which would make more sense as an
escape route, and we know from other POVs that there is at least one
direct route from the dungeon to the Bay). For your argument to hold
up, Tyrion would have to know the route from dungeon to Tower, which
we have no evidence that he did.
>
> I prefer the motivation and opportunity to come from the wronged
> partner, not from some amazing nadless Jigsaw-style puppeteer.
>
Well, he still is an amazing nadless Jigsaw-style puppeteer, no matter
what his involvement was with this incident.
>
> Maybe, but he never would have been there if it hadn't been for
> Jaime's revelation. So much for Varys's plan.
>
Not definite unless you assume (as you clearly do) that Tyrion knew
enough about the tunnels to go where he wanted to go. Might be true,
but it is certain that Varys knows the tunnels better than anyone, and
it would not be hard to make sure that Tyrion "escaped" in the right
direction. This might require a re-read as the context of Tyrion's
jailbreak would probably reveal the truth of this.
>
> Half-Cunt Druid.
>
But what would he turn into when he shapeshifted? Disturbing images.
>
> >Could be this fuckwit on the news over here. Kid's dad told him to go
> >hide in the attic, then let go a hot air balloon from his backyard and
> >told the newspapers that his son was up in it. Oh, woe is me, please
> >turn your cameras on... Turns out he is some kind of reality TV
> >junkie. I wish they would let him fly up in a hot air balloon, just
> >float it right on over to the Eastern Continent about lunchtime...
>
> Bwahahahaha, I heard about that. What quality programming.
>
This is why I have to turn to BBC for intelligent TV, or HBO. Reality
TV is the death knell of entertainment. Sadly the G-damn Brits gave us
this as well. Revenge for the Revolution finally at maturation, I
guess...
Ben
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> > But one way or the other, she would have gotten more information out
> > of him. What I was saying was basically that it's unbelievable she
> > took his word for it when he said "he is my blood, ask no more". I
> > mean, this was a woman whose husband brought home someone else's kid.
> > You'd better believe she found out whether or not it was really his
> > kid.
>
> And this is potentially a plot-mire for Martin. It seems pretty clear
> from her POV that she did think Jon was Ned's bastard, and to explain
> that away would have to involve some heavy plot-wrangling. Alternately
> that she would not know (or find out) is very difficult to believe, as
> you point out.
I still have faith in Martin's ability to plot-wrangle. I would like
to be surprised rather than bored by whatever happens regarding Jon's
past. Ideal, for me, would be for it all to go un-learned, the
questions unanswered, and the whole point to be rendered unimportant
by some unforeseen development.
A close second, to me, would be the confirmation of the Jon Targaryen
Theory at the cost of everything we thought we knew about Noble Ned.
No way could you keep a secret like this without bumping off a few
people.
On the whole, though, the idea that Jon is the secret Prince of
Destiny with a mysterious past where he was the unity of Targaryen and
Stark is just lame.
Danaerys and Jon are meant to be "the song of ice and fire". But
Danaerys is pure Targaryen all the way through, like rock candy. Jon,
as the ice side of the deal, is ... what? Half-Stark, half-Targaryen?
That's a bit diluted, isn't it? Better by far if Arya turns out to be
the ice side of the deal. But then, as a wise Series 4000 Mechanoid
once said, "better anything than that toupee."
> > The possibilities I see are:
>
> > 1) Jon is Ned's bastard.
>
> This would be a great plot-twist, as it were, to have what we are led
> to believe actually be what happened. I think it unlikely, but it
> would be unexpected and therefore might very well be the case.
Heh, I unhappily concur.
> > 1a) Jon is Ned's bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
>
> This would match up very well with her POV, but not so much with his,
> brief though they were.
Maybe explainable by the fact that she dug around behind his back,
talking to various others ... but yeah, it's a stretch. I'm not buying
it.
> > 2a) Jon is not Ned's bastard and Catelyn found out for sure.
>
> Again this would involve some pretty heavy wrangling on Martin's part,
> as her POV seems to contradict this.
*nod* Not saying he's incapable of it, but yeah.
> > 2c) Jon is not Ned's bastard, Catelyn kept on nagging Ned about it,
> > and he fed her a spectacular lie.
>
> Possible, but given the source? That Ned could lie is tough, that he
> could come up with an excellently constructed lie that stood up to
> interrogation? Seems preposterous.
Unless, as stated, we have been dramatically and awesomely misinformed
about Ned.
And Rhaegar, it can only be hoped. See, one of the foundation stones
of the Jon Targaryen Thaery is that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna and
rape her, but that they were in wuv. The scenes of the winter rose and
the tourney and all that, not to mention Lyanna's flashback-scenes
talking about Robert, seem to suggest it. And everyone seems hell-bent
on Rhaegar being a nice guy even though nobody who knew him really
talks about it (except Ned, who is a fairly reliable barometer for
evil).
But there is still a chance for all this to be turned on its head in a
fantastic way, for example:
Rhaegar digs up this nutty prophecy about the Prince Who Was Promised,
and decides, in a foaming nutty-arsed Targaryen way, that it's to be
his son. However, his kids with Elia Martell (uh, or whoeverthefuck)
just don't seem to work out, so he hatches this plot to woo, and
ultimately kidnap and screw the shit out of, Lyanna Stark. When Lyanna
is kidnapped, Mr. Stark and his eldest son raise the roof and Aerys,
with Rhaegar's full support, has them brutally executed.
Cue the Robellion.
Rhaegar goes off with his army to get his chest landscaped at the
Trident, but not before shipping Lyanna off to the Tower of Joy with a
few of the "good" Kingsguard and orders to defend her with their
lives. Their obedience to this strange order would need to be
explained, but we can manage for now because this needs to be
explained for every version of this Thaery. In the meantime, Tywin
lets the enemy into King's Landing, Jaime kills Aerys and Gregor kills
Rhaegar's legitimate family, none of which he gives a shit about
because he is bugfuck insane and believes that Lyanna is bearing the
True Messiah. Indeed, he probably left Elia and the kids without a
single Kingsguard to protect them specifically because he *wanted*
them to die in the battle.
Ned and Howland bust their way into the Tower of Joy and find Lyanna
just about dead, but she's had nine months of torture and brainwashing
to go completely Oldtown Syndrome on him, and Ned can't bring himself
to kill the child that Lyanna now believes is so important. She dies,
and Ned is there with the baby and Howland "Mister Wolf" Reed goes,
"okay, damage control..."
Next thing you know, Ned is marching out of there with an inexplicable
baby, stopping by at Starfall or wherever and finding a
conveniently-pregnant or just-birthed Ashara Dayne, leaving Howland
behind there to throw her off a building and spread rumours that the
baby was Ned's, and then riding off into the sunset with Wylla and her
unstoppable bursting corset-gourds.
The rest, as they say, is history. Ned goes home and spins some
cock-and-bull story to his new wife about how Jon is his blood, and
she is a moron so doesn't even think about it after that. Howland has
spread enough rumours to make sure Catelyn can dig all she likes and
find only evidence pointing at Ashara Dayne. Ned and Howland never
really talk to each other again, a conspiracy of silence and murder
that turns Ned into a puritan saint in a mad over-correction and sees
Howland basically exiled to his dominion of Greywater Watch.
After Ned dies, of course, Howland sends out his kids to follow in his
footsteps. Damage control.
Thus ends the ballad of Billy "Granny Killer" Doyle.
> > The only feasible option for 2) is 2c), which goes against what we
> > (thought we) knew about Ned. I'm fine with being wrong about Ned, it
> > would be nice and chilling if it turns out that Ned's painful nobility
> > and na�vet� leading up to his death were part of an attempt to correct
> > for the terrible lies and possibly more he has committed to keep Jon
> > safe. This at least is consistent with Ned's memories.
>
> And there certainly is a strong tinge of guilt, not on the surface but
> below that. I always figured it was the Rhaegar's kids thing, but this
> would make sense. It seems out of character given what we know, but in
> the end we don't know Eddard Stark all that well. Having his
> eventually suicidal devotion to truth and nobility be in response to
> something bad from the past that he is trying to overcome, I like that
> idea...
My original problem with the whole Jon Targaryen Thaery sort of hinged
on the fact that Ned, as we (thought we) knew him, just didn't have it
in his character to carry out such a barefaced deception. I say again,
this is a guy who found out that Cersei and Jaime Lannister were
breeding a clutch of nutty abominations behind the King's back, and
went to Cersei with his evidence.
This is also a guy who killed his daughter's pet because the Queen
said so, even though Lady had nothing to do with anything, just to
keep from making waves. I am quite happy to believe that there were
elements of Ned's character that we don't know about fully yet, and
these might explain one of the most glaring inconsistencies in the Jon
Targaryen Thaery.
> > Indeed. One way or another, it seems impossible to believe she
> > wouldn't have found out for sure. But her thoughts and point of view
> > scenes seem to suggest that she never did. I just don't buy that.
>
> Contradiction city, I wonder if Martin will wiggle his way out of
> it...
My own developing Thaery notwithstanding, I suspect that Martin will
find a way. Most likely, he will not explain any of the
inconsistencies but leave them to be debated (after all, a long
exposition by Howland Reed wouldn't exactly make for compelling
storytelling), perhaps revealing to certain characters that Jon is the
lost son of Rhaegar, perhaps just revealing it to the readers before
going off on a tangent and making the whole revelation into a sort of
deliciously ironic highlight when Jon fucks/kills Danaerys and steals
her dragons, or something. Or, as you say, dies himself in some weird
Stephen-King-afterthought sort of way where the author realises he has
to kill more good guys.
> Good point. It appears that the best of them were on the Trident with
> Rhaegar, while Jaime (clearly the worst) was left to guard Aerys and
> his children along with Rhaegar's family. We certainly have no mention
> of Jaime having to deal with the other Kingsguard to kill Aerys...
Indeed, I don't think they were even on the Trident with him, although
the Tower of Joy may not have been far away. They fought hard enough
to need to be subdued, but weren't killed, while Rhaegar was. And yet
Ned doesn't think poorly of them.
I'm trying to work this into my Evil Ned Thaery (aka. Evil Ned 3, Army
of Starkness), and it goes a little something like this:
Rhaegar (unbeknownst to Ned, but knownst to us) arranged with Tywin to
betray the city, but he also made sure his father knew where the
wildfire was buried. When Jaime killed Aerys, it stymied that plan and
allowed Tywin to take the city. Net result: Rhaegar dies at the
Trident smelling of roses, while Tywin and Jaime look like giant
douchebags in Ned's eyes because they betrayed their posts. Ned,
fighting to avenge his family, had no sworn position to betray (aside
from his oath to the throne, which may be part of his ongoing and
disastrous attempts to be a goody two-shoes the rest of his life) and
so he could afford to look down on Jaime and Tywin.
Or, even more delicious, he hates them precisely because of all the
things they have in common. Ned betrayed the crown and went on a
murderous conspiracy-spree in the name of protecting Lyanna's
reputation and her child, so he sees Jaime and Tywin as an
uncomfortable mirror of his own hypocrisy, one that is absolutely
unapologetic for its deeds. He thinks well enough of Rhaegar because
Lyanna swore up and down that he was a glorious man and she loved him
(remember the Oldtown Syndrome), and the whole thing seemed to end
fairly honourably for him, falling in battle while his family was
betrayed. Ned may even have felt sorry for him.
I don't know, I'm getting confused, but it rings true to me. Okay,
well if not true, then at least awesome.
> You would think that they had some interpretive power, being that they
> were the "best in the land" (at least up until Cersei starting
> appointing them). The name alone would speak to their primary
> function. However given that the Targaryens were known to boil or
> roast those who didn't do as they were told, maybe these fellas toed
> the line? Seems there is another story to be explained here.
Maybe Barristan the Bold realised Rhaegar and Aerys were either going
to be bloodily betrayed or were going to destroy the entire city in a
hellish firestorm, so he took the assignment that was the least of all
evils: protect a woman with child.
He wouldn't be able to buy into Rhaegar's nutty belief in the Prince
Who Was Promised, though, because then he would have kept tabs on Jon
and gone to join him after being forced to retire. Instead, he went to
Danaerys. Maybe the old idea that *Danaerys* is the Prince Who Was
Promised was correct all along?
I don't know, Barristan is an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in
an impractically pristine white uniform.
> Any of them that were there still around? I am trying to remember who
> is left from that original Kingsguard. The group from the Trident
> died, Jaime most certainly did not and does not know what the deal was
> with Lyanna, and as I mentioned neither did Barristan. Oakheart is
> dead, and he seemed particularly dense. Who else was there?
I don't remember. There were at least three, I think.
> This Mya Stone girl, the one that Sansa is learning how to act
> bastardy from, how much better would the Stark clan be if she took
> Sansa's place. Seems that the ole switcheroo has been done before
> (like the Bolton bastard). There really isn't anyone around to argue
> with this. Nah, won't happen, just letting my dislike of Sansa get in
> the way...
Hmm, that's true ... although a few people know her pretty well and it
would be difficult to pass off.
> I think the best explanation for this is that Ned genuinely did not
> know about any relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar until the
> rebellion was already over. It would seem he believed (as Robert did)
> that she was being forced to be his mistress, something that Neddy
> surely would not allow. Indeed this may have been the only thing that
> allied the Baratheons and Starks, who otherwise seem incompatible.
Seems reasonable, and it still fits pretty well with the Evil Ned
Thaery.
> > Yes, well. This is a guy who found out Jaime had arranged for Tyrion
> > to lose his virginity to a girl, and had said girl branded as a whore
> > before getting his entire regiment of guards to gang-rape her before
> > making Tyrion fuck her last. That's not exactly clever, is it? I mean,
> > as far as a common girl and her family can make trouble for Tywin, so
> > too could being implicated with Shae have made trouble for him - ie.
> > no trouble at all, really.
>
> I'll buy that he wasn't that worried about the ramifications of it,
> but I still think it unlikely he would do it just for the hell of it.
> He was more manipulative than that, and he just didn't seem to have
> anything to gain here.
Nothing to gain, I suppose. He'd pretty much gained everything he
wanted from Shae once she had testified in court and pretty much
signed Tyrion's death-warrant. The way she humiliated Tyrion with the
"giant of Lannister" story was icing on the cake. I think it's safe to
say that she would be a liability to leave around, where she might
mention to the other servants that Tywin and Cersei had told her what
to say, and that Tyrion had been about the nicest guy she'd ever gone
to bed with for money.
So they were going to kill her. I just figure Tywin would take this
opportunity to soil her - another layer of icing on the cake, if you
like. A free screw, one he wouldn't really have to explain to anyone
even if he was left in a position where it was necessary (hugely
unlikely), and an irresistible chance to spit on Tyrion one more time,
either with or without Tyrion's knowledge. Like I said, I see no
problem with Tywin just thoughtlessly doing something like this to
show his disregard for both Tyrion and Shae, before stringing her up
alongside his son on D-day. Or, even more likely, letting him know
through a third party that she committed some dubious crime and had
been flayed and cast out of the city, or sold into slavery. So Tyrion
would die knowing what had happened to her.
> > Nothing Tywin does, no depth of stupidity or evil, surprises me when
> > it comes to hurting Tyrion. He hated Tyrion with an intensity that was
> > pretty much indistinguishable from insanity.
>
> Not sure I agree with that. He certainly despised him for being an
> unworthy son and killing his mother who presumably Tywin cared about
> (though who can tell with Tywin), but I didn't see that absolute
> passionate hatred, enough to screw his girlfriend just to have the
> pleasure of humiliating him, then telling him about it later?
Maybe there's something in what you say about Tywin holding Tyrion in
higher regard. I'm not necessarily backflipping because it supports my
case, but on reflection it does seem that Tyrion is smart (I believe
Tywin credits him with animal cunning or low sneaky intelligence or
something offensive like that), and this only seems to stoke the fires
of Tywin's hatred further. On all the conversations we see between
them, Tywin seems to acknowledge Tyrion's smarts on at least a
provisional basis, and even takes advantage of them on occasion,
although as I recall he also ignores Tyrion when it would be in his
best interests to listen to him (usually, I think, when there are
others around who might snigger behind their hands at Tywin accepting
advice from his little mutant-child). So there could be a certain
amount of *knowledge* that Tyrion is intelligent and thoughtful, but
that only makes Tywin hate him more. It is, as I've said, a hatred
that seems all the more irrational and volatile compared to the
measured way he reacts to everyone and everything else.
It's not necessarily that Tywin finds him an unworthy son, although
the fact that Tyrion "killed" Joanna is certainly an issue. It's the
chance, perhaps, that people will realise that Tyrion is Tywin's
*only* worthy child, and he is a stunted deformed little monster. So
what does that say about the rest of them?
And whenever Tywin sees Tyrion, he's reminded of this. I think a man
like Tywin, in that sort of situation, would pretty much do anything
to spit on his misbegotten child. Whether Tyrion ends up knowing about
it or not. After all, Tyrion is due to die around this point so
there's a difference between this and the other instances where Tywin
has hurt and humiliated him.
> Would be
> much more Tywin to make Tyrion watch...
Heh, that sounds like a contradiction to me. How could he be unlikely
to manifest "hatred enough to screw his girlfriend just to have the
pleasure of humiliating him, then telling him about it later", but be
more likely to make Tyrion watch?
I think, on further reflection, that Tywin might not have wanted
Tyrion to know about Shae, mainly because it would reveal his giant
cunty hypocrisy and make Tyrion go all smarmy and say "I thought
whores were bad, father dear?" Wouldn't stop him from fucking her on
the side, just because he could, but it might not be in support of his
dynamic with Tyrion to fuck a whore in front of him.
Having Shae sexually degraded by a number of other men and livestock,
however, would certainly be in his repertoire. It's been done,
however, and it may not have the same effect with Shae (after she'd
turned on him in court) as it had with Tysha.
Although, on yet another hand, Tyrion did seem to make his peace with
what Shae had done in the courtroom, thinking only that she was not
saving herself but would die in spite of her betrayal. It wasn't like
she had much of a choice. Like Bronn, Tyrion saw that it had been a
contract between them and now there was a better contract on offer.
Didn't stop him from killing her when he found her in Tywin's bed, but
there's the thing. If Varys put her there, hoping that Tyrion would
double back and find her, it would really only ensure that Tyrion
would kill Shae. He'd be more likely to crow about it to his father,
not kill him in patricidal rage. *That* came from the Tysha issue.
Varys could have killed Shae off a lot more easily. And Tywin, for
that matter. Too much depended on factors outside his control, and his
choice of weapon was (as stated in another message) also interesting.
And it's all just too direct. A weird mix of too-direct and
too-convoluted.
> > She probably would have. And Tywin probably knew it. Which is why I
> > wouldn't have given much for her chances of survival ... but he might
> > still have kept her around for a little while.
>
> Nah, I think no matter what happened, that was Shae's last night among
> the living.
Probably.
> I agree, but why bother? I just don't think his hatred for Tyrion was
> enough to make this a worthwhile risk. It almost seems tributary to
> Tyrion, that he was so enchanted with this girl that Tywin had to find
> out what she was carrying about between her legs, and under no
> circumstances do I see Tywin paying this kind of tribute to Tyrion.
> Otherwise she's just a whore, and it would make more sense to give her
> to some lowly pig-boy rather than honoring her (and therefore Tyrion
> by connection) with a roll in the hay. It just feels strange to me.
Interesting point. I wonder why he didn't just put her in the stocks
for any passing dude to fuck, the way Pia was dealt with at Harrenhal.
Maybe he decided to give her a ride first, something I still believe
is related to his all-consuming hatred of Tyrion, regardless of
whether it is based in true scorn or scorn layered furiously over the
top of the knowledge that Tyrion is the superior Lannister, possessed
of traits none of the others seem capable of displaying.
> > All the useful little monsters in the employment of the Lannisters did
> > well out of it, until such time as they got cut loose. They got what
> > they wanted from her, in every sense, and then - sooner or later - it
> > would have been flaying time, just like with Alayaya.
>
> But why bother with Shae? If she were to prove useful, then why
> endanger he utility by giving her leverage (Tywin's juice). And if she
> were useless, then why not be done with her? Again it just seems
> strange.
I'm saying her usefulness was pretty much at an end at this point.
> > No. The bedroom was where she and Tywin met up to have sex. She was in
> > custody, she wasn't in custody in his bedroom, so your addition to my
> > point was not legitimate at all.
>
> Come on, of course I didn't mean that she was moving in! I was being
> smarmy myself, not actually saying that she was going to be Tywin's
> kept woman.
I know this.
> I meant that she quite literally at that point was "in
> custody in his bedroom" which I guess could be separated for clarity,
> but nonetheless was true.
She was effectively in custody as a servant of the castle, and had
been ever since Tyrion brought her there. Once she was "bought out" by
Cersei and Tywin, she was still in a similar sort of custody although
most likely a bit more controlled. So then and there, perhaps, her
term of custody was being carried out in Tywin's bedroom, but that was
a moot point. At a slightly later point, *Tyrion's* term of custody
was carried out in Tywin's bedroom as well.
There was no need to add "in his bedroom" to what I said and attempt
to pass it off as my statement. That was just made up, to no real
purpose. And it wasn't what I said, so there was no point in trying to
tell me it was. And the addition of those words was what made it
possible to even debate the point. Strawman.
> > > But why? Why go through the hassle, just to bang a camp trollop?
>
> > Because he wanted to.
>
> Thin, I think, very thin.
There really was no hassle, so there's not much to explain anyway.
> > It's not hard to believe at all, if you just remember some of the
> > hateful, vicious things Tywin has done to Tyrion over the years.
>
> Yeah, but all were to openly embarrass or humiliate him, not in
> private behind his back.
Remember, Tywin wasn't necessarily done by the time he was shot. He
was just taking a crap while he thought about what to do with Tyrion
and/or Shae next.
> > In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'd have been surprised
> > if he *hadn't* fucked her.
>
> Still not seeing it as reasonable. Possible yes, but probable?
The alternative is that Tywin had no idea Shae was there, which meant
that Varys put her there, which probably meant he drugged her because
no way would she have believed that Tywin wanted to screw her after
all she'd heard from Tyrion, which meant that it was amazing luck that
Tyrion arrived with a single-shot weapon to find Tywin on the toilet
and Shae wearing a garrote around her neck, unless of course Varys put
the chain there and also made sure somehow that Tywin was on the can,
which would almost have to be the case if he was going to sneak Shae
into the apartment and set her up naked on the bed in his chain of
office while he was safely out of the room.
There may be less coincidence this way (or, to be honest, a little
less *incidence*), but there is a whole heck of a lot more of Varys
being Wyle E. Coyote - and with about as much success, depending on
what his plan actually was.
Probable? I say so. And more palatable? Definitely.
> That's where I don't see the Tywin that you do. Making a lot of
> presumptions about him that the reader doesn't know enough to confirm.
> First, that he was a horny fellow (no evidence of that),
Except that he's, you know, a guy.
> that he loved
> to bang whores (no evidence of that),
Well, we're taking his puritan attitude where Tyrion's whoring is
concerned, combined with his general demeanour of not giving a crap
where anyone else is concerned, his treatment of "whores" in the past,
and the fact that he betrayed no surprise at all when he saw that
Tyrion had entered the apartment using the secret tunnel that the Hand
classically used to traffic whores.
But basically, this incident just throws his entire backstory at us as
a colossal cunty hypocrisy, and that is simply incredible writing.
> that it would get him off to see
> Tyrion humiliated (make him happy sure, but horny?).
That was just conjecture, I admit.
> I just think that your assessment of Tywin's personality
> doesn't necessarily have enough basis to be factual. I am not saying
> that it might not be true, but I didn't read enough supportive
> evidence to say that this was in character for him. As I've always
> said, it is possible that this was who he was, but I don't think there
> is enough in what we know about him to say that with certainty, which
> leaves the door open for Varys's role to be significantly greater than
> you are prepared to admit.
Wow.
So what do you think is the alternative, given what you know (or
believe) of his personality? Not being sarcastic, genuinely curious.
> > Not really. They wouldn't have to make that many excuses. In fact they
> > probably wouldn't need to make any at all. He didn't keep his
> > reputation by making excuses, he kept it by doing what he wanted and
> > fucking up anyone to dare question or mock it.
>
> Okay, true, but still seems like a hassle to me.
Where's the hassle? "I want to talk to that woman who testified
against Tyrion." "You're a whore, get in bed." "That's how a real
Lannister does it." "Take her to Maester Qyburn. If you want to fuck
her on the way downstairs, have at." "Hmm, I feel like another shit, I
wonder if it was something I ate."
> This is my point. You can't hate someone that white-hot unless you
> show awareness of them as important. Screwing somebody's girlfriend
> behind their back just to stick it to them is not something you do to
> someone you look down on.
I raise my eyebrows dubiously at this, but accept your general point.
I guess if you really think someone is nothin', it's hard to get
excited about screwing someone who has evidently deemed him worthy of
sack-time. Maybe a whore is a different concept.
> It's something you do to someone that you
> want to bring down. I sincerely believe that Tywin did not think
> highly enough of Tyrion to need to do this. If as you say he loathed
> him (something I agree with), then it would be strange for him to
> immediately screw his girlfriend right after she betrayed him and sent
> him to jail. That's the kind of thing you do to someone that has got
> the better of you, not someone that you essentially just absolutely
> destroyed.
Fair cop. Tywin did hate Tyrion that much more incandescently because
of his sharp wit and tactical / social knowledge.
> > > I disagree, told you we could find something to argue about...
>
> > You don't disagree, you're just squirming to find some part of all
> > this that you can argue with and the closest you've come is something
> > you made up that I didn't even say!
>
> BS, I didn't argue against anything you didn't say, I just disagree
> with your interpretation of Tywin's character. I certainly didn't make
> anything up, though perhaps I gave you credit for understanding what I
> was saying and shouldn't have.
Ooh, you're feisty!
> > > But the point is the hassle involved.
>
> > There's no hassle.
>
> Sure there is, maybe not a lot, but certainly there is some.
I'm not seeing the hassle, would you care to explain it to me?
> > He probably wouldn't bother making excuses. She probably wouldn't have
> > ever found out. It seems pretty likely that Tywin had used prostitutes
> > before, and yet Cersei was shocked and offended at the idea that Shae
> > should be found dead in his bed. I think it's safe to say he managed
> > to hide it all pretty easily.
>
> Here you argue with yourself. Did he hide it? Or did he just scare
> everybody and they didn't look into it? Or did he just not give a shit
> what people thought?
Probably a little bit of each, depending on the people and situations
involved. That's how it works. You don't react the same way to every
situation. Not even if you're a robot ice Lord like Tywin Lannister.
His reactions to Tyrion clearly show that he's capable of acting in
different ways with different people.
In this specific case, of Shae in his chambers, I would say his
reaction to any questions or discovery would depend on the other
parties involved. You keep bringing up different possibilities, it's
not really a stretch to imagine Tywin would react to those different
possibilities in different ways. Is it?
> You've argued each of those, none of which appear
> to agree with each other. What all of this says to me is that there
> certainly was a hassle involved, and that is basically my argument,
> that boffing Shae is not worth the hassle.
I'm not sure how those sentences logically follow from one another,
but if you think there was a hassle (perhaps a risk of his being found
out with a whore and discredited in front of the court or his family
or his men), I'm not seeing it.
Especially since Tywin summoning Shae to his bed is about the only
alternative that doesn't involve enough Varys to ruin both the power
of Tyrion's scene and the mystique surrounding Varys.
> There's the rub, I just don't think he cared as much as you do. Not
> that he wouldn't do it because he's a nice guy, or that having it be
> Tyrion's woman wouldn't make it sweeter. It just seems above and
> beyond, and a hassle, with the benefit being relatively small, unless
> there are several elements to Tywin's character (which you take for
> granted) that we don't have any real evidence to support.
I think there is evidence to support Tywin's actions, hypocritical at
best and borderline psychopathic at worst. As I said in my earlier
post, it is there in his scenes with Tyrion if you opt to read them
that way. It is, of course, a matter of conjecture since we are never
going to get a break-down of his life and times and thoughts and
deeds.
But I'm really not seeing this "hassle" that seems to be the lynchpin
of your objection.
> > > He didn't regard Tyrion highly enough for this,
>
> > I think you're way off. You don't have to regard somebody highly to
> > fuck their girlfriend while he's on death row. Especially if she's the
> > one who helped put him there and you're planning on shutting her up
> > for good sooner or later anyway.
>
> Nah, I think I'm pretty close on this.
Could be, I was hasty in my assessment because to me, screwing another
man's woman would be a sign of low regard rather than the opposite.
You know, hypothetically.
Of course, that the "high regard" Tywin felt would be deeply
submerged, not to mention devastatingly infuriating to him, is now
something I am considering. It wouldn't necessarily be that Tywin (as
it looked like you were suggesting) was secretly watching Tyrion and
going "what a guy, I couldn't have done that, that's my boy."
It was more like he was watching Tyrion and thinking "You disgusting
little troll, how dare you stand there and make me look like an idiot,
how dare you make yourself look kind and wise at my expense, just like
everything that has ever happened to you has happened at my
expense..."
Which is a form of high regard, I'll give you that.
> In fact as this goes on I am
> becoming increasingly sure that this supposition is right. Ironically
> it means that you might very well be right in that Tywin did take her
> to bed voluntarily without manipulation (which pretty much kills the
> majority of this debate, in your favor). The only way this makes sense
> is if Tywin regarded Tyrion highly enough that he would take great
> satisfaction in treating his girlfriend as a Handi-wipe.
I don't doubt it. I was aiming at the "hated him enough to do the
illogical" angle, since there is a certain amount of backing for it in
the books. But I suppose Tyrion's intellectual and moral superiority
would also be a factor, even if Tywin didn't acknowledge it - ever.
> This gesture
> speaks to me as "See how much better I am than you, who treated this
> girl as a human". This only makes sense if Tywin actually had great
> respect for Tyrion, which I am beginning to believe might have been
> the case.
Hmm, not entirely sure it translates as "respect" in this case,
though. The unwelcome knowledge that Tyrion is clever and worthy did
lead Tywin to use his "low cunning" on occasion, but it was never
something he openly admitted. I think for it to be respect, it has to
actually be acknowledged.
What do you think? Could we compromise on "grudging admiration" or
even "grudging acceptance of worth"?
> So I guess I will yield on the argument about Tywin taking Shae to
> bed. I think the hassle of hiding it and then disposing of the
> evidence (which you appear to relish saying wouldn't have to happen)
> would be well worth the feeling that Tywin would get from the act.
I just don't think there would be any difficulty for Tywin in dealing
with something like this. Look at the giant clusterfuck of justice he
already arranged for Tyrion's benefit. The Lannisters are innate
schemers in the court.
It certainly doesn't balance against the "hassle" that Varys would
have to go through in order to construct that whole scene himself.
> In
> fact I think all of this was motivated by Tywin's subconscious
> knowledge that Tyrion was by far the best of his children, and almost
> certainly a better man than Tywin himself.
Indeed, on this I very readily agree. I don't think at any point I
have been operating under a contrary assumption, for example that
Tywin might have believed for a second that Tyrion was as defective
and inferior as he always claimed. Maybe I could have said that more
clearly from the start.
> Thank you for bringing this
> point to light, a much better argument than any that you brought out
> openly.
I would raise my eyebrows again, sir, but for the fact that it would
require the use of at least two more muscles than I consider this
remark merits.
> > And then there's the possibility that Tywin would have then both
> > executed together. I don't know, but it just strikes me as deliciously
> > Tywin-like (and the total, blatant injustice of it very
> > Lannister-like) to string her up beside Tyrion "for the crime of
> > slander", and let Tyrion know in no uncertain terms that "I tapped
> > that" before pulling the handle.
>
> This would almost certainly have had to happen for it to make sense.
> Tywin must have wanted to be able to put Tyrion's nose in it,
> figuratively. "See, she was just a whore that would just as happily
> bang me for money as you."
Like I said, Tywin's evening was just getting started when Tyrion
interrupted it with the old "crossbow bolt in the bowels" ploy.
> > In public inasmuch as a regiment of guards were involved. And that was
> > because of something Jaime had arranged anyway, so others already sort
> > of knew about it. He had to take a strong and fairly public stance.
>
> Had to, but also wanted to, as he clearly planned this out rather than
> improvising. Again something you do to lessen someone, which generally
> means that is someone who was worthy.
Granted.
I don't think what Tywin did to Tysha was any more of a "hassle" than
what he did to Shae - or was working on doing to her.
> In any case, I will yield on the motivations behind Shae ending up in
> Tywin's bed. Varys might very well have had nothing to do with it,
> though I still think it convenient at the very least that Tyrion was
> released on the same night that the liasion took place.
Convenient, sure. In that it was the only time it really could have
happened, and made for a great scene. There's a lot of such
"convenience" in the story if you break it down. It was convenient
that the direwolf in the beginning of the story gave birth to just
enough puppies for each of the Stark/Snow kids to get one, it was
convenient that one was albino, it was convenient that the mother died
and the pups were still alive when they were found. It was convenient
that Khal Drogo took a wound and ignored the witch's advice, allowing
him to die and Danaerys to start on her whole quest. It was convenient
that Arya found Jaqen in the cage with Rorge and Biter, and it was
convenient that there was an axe there for her to throw to them,
leading to her whole storyline with the coin and the Faceless Men. It
was convenient that Gregor killed Oberyn but was also almost killed
himself, it was convenient that Theon found a couple of kids he could
butcher and pretend were Bran and Rickon ...
After a while, there's only so much you can explain by saying a
character set it up that way on purpose, and only so much you can say
was fate. The rest, if you like, is convenient. Because otherwise it
would be a really dull story. I don't think these "incidences" get in
the way of that and make it in any way unbelievable. Indeed, the way I
see Tyrion's final scene with Tywin ... it's just perfect. Nothing
interferes with it being seamlessly, and disgustingly, realistic.
> Essentially I
> still believe that Varys set the encounter between Tyrion and Tywin up
> through Jaime and (the yield I mentioned) Tywin's unfortunate decision
> (for him) to feel the need to humiliate Tyrion further. Timing is
> everything...
Yeah, I ... wait, what? I'd like you to explain what Varys's plan was
here, because at the moment it just makes no sense. Did he want Shae
dead, or Tywin, or Tyrion? Tyrion wouldn't have gone back to Tywin's
room, let alone killed him, if it hadn't been for Jaime - which had
nothing to do with Varys. And Tyrion certainly wouldn't have gone
after Shae to kill her.
This leaves us with Varys letting Tyrion out of his cell, arming him
and letting slip that Tywin's room is thataway. Against which I have
never argued. The rest of what happened couldn't have been planned. It
was just luck - luck for Varys that Tyrion happened to decide to go
back, and luck for Tyrion that he happened upon a situation that
allowed him to kill two people while armed with a crossbow.
It's even likely, if we want to go this far with it, that Varys was
aware that Tywin had summoned Shae. He let Tyrion out in the hopes
that he would go up there and find them shagging, and plant a crossbow
bolt in Tywin in the heat of the moment. That would be Varys taking
advantage of Shae's presence, which I can see - not actually
orchestrating her presence, no way. Even then, his plan folded because
Tyrion just took off, and it was only random chance that brought him
back. Not the hallmark of a Varys-plot. Not only that, but I'm not
sure how Varys expected Tyrion to take out two people with a single
crossbow, and what was going to happen after he'd fired his single
shot.
Tywin being on the can, that was just cosmic poetry.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
> Like you, I think this is where my real resentment of this kid comes
> from. Perhaps in that situation, we all would be dicks. I am pretty
> sure I would be, in fact I am pretty sure I already am and I have no
> such qualifiers...
I have the same amazing ability. We must be special. Although, on this
newsgroup, not so much. It's like hiding in plain sight.
> But there are several versions of this, fantasy movies with
> really impressive casts, but based on crappy scripts (though usually
> not based on bad fiction) and in a lot of cases mediocre CGI (which
> Eragon was not guilty of).
Oh yeah. That's certainly true enough. I guess they usually get the
budget for a good writer, a good batch of effects, or a good batch of
actors.
In "Lord of the Rings", they pretty much got all three, which was why
it cost a squillion dollars. Now in "Eragon", it seems like they got a
huge budget because the story was this total flavor of the month, so
they splurged on expensive actors and CGI. The script itself probably
came pretty cheap. Indeed, my eternal inner cynic urges me to suggest
that since they paid to get the book published, they might easily have
paid to get it made into a movie too, so the story at least would have
come easily.
> > While they can appear in bad movies to pay the bills (and I imagine
> > they paid a buttload of bills out of their cut of "Eragon"), I was
> > sort of surprised to see them all team up for a bad one. Usually these
> > big names only team up for something great, like "I'm Fucking Ben
> > Affleck".
>
> HaHa, that was classic! Sarah Silverman is hilarious. I think in some
> cases the stars are in alignment (literally as well as figuratively)
> and you just happen to get several major-league actors available and
> looking for a check, which appears to be what happened here.
I can't decide whether "I'm Fucking Matt Damon" or "I'm Fucking Ben
Affleck" was funnier. I'm going to go with the latter. Strangely,
about the only thing I have seen Silverman in was a bit-part in a
double-episode of "Star Trek: Voyager". It was a good episode and she
did OK, but I'm a stranger in a foreign land in that I actually liked
"Voyager".
> After we made some great progress! However I have to say that I
> believe science fiction might still be in the best position it has
> ever been in due to some very solid successes. I still hope that we
> can get some Asimov-Ellison-Phillip K. Dick-type stuff made into
> movies, but I think the studios are not quite there yet.
Yeah. Asimov movies still have to have Will Smith in them for some
reason. And while I wouldn't usually complain about that - he is a
great sci-fi staple - for some reason his appearance in "I, Robot"
seemed to pave the way for the whole movie being steamrolled into a
giant flat shit.
> Fantasy, on the other hand, continues to be a real movie orphan. Lord
> of the Rings was perhaps the best opportunity this genre ever had to
> break into movies on an impressive scale, but I think its impact has
> faded with no worthy successors, and I believe that the studios have
> decided for the most part that this was an aberration. The Narnia
> movies have already slipped away (third one might not even be made),
> which were another great opportunity (and pretty well done, for the
> most part). We get one or two good fantasy movies a year. There really
> aren't that many bad ones either, there just aren't that many period.
Yep, I sort of liked the Narnia movies, it's a shame if they don't do
the next one because it (if it was, as I suspect, to be "Voyage of the
Dawntreader") was my favourite book of the series. But they do get
increasingly wishy-washy and confusing as the series goes on, it would
be interesting but probably not very profitable to make them into
movies.
I'd watch 'em, though.
> > >But we have ZERO recollection of said Ashara Dayne, right?
>
> > Right. Basically all we know (or think we know) is that she threw
> > herself off a tower.
>
> And other than Mr. Reed, we don't have confirmation of anyone who was
> there or might provide any confirmation of this, right?
Actually we don't even know if Howland was there, that's just my
assumption in order to help out the Jon Targaryen fold. I seem to
recall the suicide was mentioned by some Dayne or other, and maybe
also by one of the kids hanging out with Jon or Arya ... but I don't
remember.
> I still wonder
> whether she is even dead. But Martin is not big on supposedly dead
> people popping back up (Catelyn doesn't count as she really is dead).
Heh, mostly-dead.
It might be fun if Ashara pops up to confirm the Evil Ned Thaery for
us (more in other post). But I think too many separate sources have
talked about / thought about her suicide to make it a forgery. Still,
we'll have to see.
> > I mean, the idea is that she had the baby, gave it to Ned and then
> > killed herself when he went off to his forced marriage to Catelyn. For
> > anyone to believe this, Ashara must have at least passed for pregnant
> > to the eyes of one or two chambermaids in the months leading up to her
> > suicide, and she probably would have had to have given birth. This is
> > where Wylla the amazing wetnurse presumably comes in, having
> > wet-nursed Jon as well as ... whoeverthefuck it was. Was it Little
> > Reed, or Bull-Helmet Baratheon who said he was Jon's "milk-brother"?
>
> Wylla, who is still around, right?
Not mentioned as dead. But not actually in the story, either, as I
recall.
> I just dug a little and she is
> apparently still a servant to House Dayne. The Dayne thing appears to
> be a wide-open sore on this whole mystery, as basically a bunch of
> them have be in it up to their necks. Not just presumably dead Ashara
> and Wylla, but pretty much everybody at Starfall, the only one of
> which we know anything is Edric, and even him we know very little.
*nod*
> > Clearly the Tower of Joy was completely deserted (which makes no
> > sense), or there were at least a few more witnesses to the pregnancy
> > or lack thereof, or Howland Reed is a Terminator-like killing machine
> > of implacable evil and endless dynamism.
>
> This made me laugh. "Wylla Manderly (she was a Manderly, wasn't she?),
> ah'll be back"
I can see her gasping "you're terminated, fucker" and crushing him
between her boobs.
Maybe I should consider seeing a psychiatrist.
> Of course this is silly, and as near as we can tell no
> real effort was made to eliminate these witnesses. You would really
> think that somebody somewhere would have told this story. My guess is
> that what happened would be common knowledge in Starfall. So what,
> nobody ever leaves there? Or comes to visit?
It seems that the main - indeed the only - rumour to do the rounds is
the one that backs up the Jon Snow story, which is very convenient for
Ned. But this means Martin has turned a blind eye to the fact that
switching and claiming babies in this way is a recipe for gossip, and
wouldn't stand up to a stiff breeze unless the main players in the
gossip had been believably involved / pregnant / not pregnant.
> > And of course it's not just the Tower of Joy, unless Lyanna was hidden
> > out there for the entire stretch of her pregnancy, which is hard to
> > believe. If not, then there would have been witnesses (presumably
> > either in King's Landing where Rhaegar wooed her, or Winterfell where
> > Rhaegar visited [and wooed] her) to her pregnancy.
>
> From the books, it appears that Lyanna was in the Tower all that time
> (as she makes no noted appearance anywhere else). If Rhaegar was her
> back-door man and she was his kept woman, this makes sense, though as
> a Stark, it seems strange that Lyanna would put up with it, unless she
> was hypnotized by the one-eyed dragon.
Could be (the first things you said, perhaps less of the one-eyed
dragon although that is also a possibility). It might have been called
the Tower of Joy because that was where Rhaegar went to escape from
his horrible life and loser-arse family. And Lyanna did the same.
> > I don't know, he could have been. Theirs might have been a
> > star-crossed and amazingly intense love, severed when Ned's brother
> > was killed and Ned was sent home to score with his brother's wife,
> > night after night after long, cold, miserable night.
>
> There is no evidence of this. In fact Ned doesn't even have any fond
> remembrance of Ashara, which if they did have this relationship you
> would think he would have. In fact he hardly thinks about her at all.
> Even his relationship with Catelyn is warm at best.
Indeed. Very interesting, right there.
> > This is just something the Jon Targaryen Fundamentalist fringe seems
> > to forget on a pretty regular basis, so I have made it my job to
> > remind them.
>
> Seems you have some support in that regard. Something I would like to
> see come out of this is that Jon is revealed to be the Targaryen heir
> (as everyone expects) but gets killed by the Others (perhaps after
> becoming one of the three heads of the Dragon, perhaps before).
Hee hee, I could dig it. Although I am not expecting any sort of
explanation for the amazing Days of Our Lives twist. There should be
explanation, but I'm thinking we'll just end up with Jon being
Lyanna's kid, with no real sense of how the fuck it happened.
And the Jon Targaryen Thaerists won't care. It makes me sad.
> This
> type of non-happy ending would satisfy me while still allowing for the
> Targaryen movement to have its due. To be honest, even at that point I
> would not have the reaction to Jon's death that I did to Robb's. Might
> even crack a smile.
Bahahahaha! I'd do more than smile, I think.
> > Not if you think that the Targaryen name comes from Old Valyrian, and
> > "Varys" was probably at least a semi-common name from that period as
> > well. There can be more than one family with names hailing from that
> > period - it's one of the good things about Martin's nobility and
> > hangers-on. The way they name their kids after each other, in a very
> > realistic way. So there are lots of Jons and Roberts. The Old Valyrian
> > names are rarer, but they haven't died out.
>
> I looked into that a little bit and I think you are right. If anything
> the Valyrian naming might have become more popular with the Targaryens
> being in power. Theoretically Varys could have been named this way by
> family perhaps looking for him to provide service to them, thus maybe
> helping them climb the social ladder? Wouldn't explain the gelding,
> though perhaps this was the only way for him to get this close?
The gelding was done by a shaman when he was a street urchin with no
prospects, at least according to the line Varys spun for Tyrion.
Actually, "Arya" sounds about as Valyrian as "Varys".
> But in this case it might make
> sense that his family had some Targaryen link, though it might be
> instead an old Valyrian link, which I think would serve both our
> thoughts.
Agreed. The names, after all, come from somewhere. For all the Roberts
and Eddards and Brandons, we have Viseryses and Aryses and Varyses
that must have some cultural basis, if not a dynastic one.
If Varys was a Targaryen, he was a distant and unimportant enough
Targaryen to a) get his bits cut off by a shaman who wanted to burn
them and communicate with demons; b) survive the Robellion and
continue as a Small Council member. That means that no direct links
were found ... although Varys probably controls that information so no
big surprise there.
Still, in that the Targaryens were huge inbreeders and they were
basically the pinnacle of the empire of Old Valyria, it's safe to say
that a Valyrian-style name could be traced, directly or otherwise, to
the First Family of Valyria at some stage.
> > Meh, I am indifferent at best towards this idea, borderline hostile at
> > worst.
>
> Perhaps a little further out on the gene pool might lessen the
> hostility?
Yeah. My hostility needs just the right sort of environment to thrive.
> > >Don't believe in coincidence myself, particularly not in a tale as
> > >well crafted as this one.
>
> > Seriously? There's a lot of coincidence, and none of it is so amazing
> > as to stretch the imagination. Look at some of the parties Arya
> > "coincidentally" runs into. Way more freakish that anything that might
> > be called a "coincidence" in the final scenes of Tyrion in King's
> > Landing.
>
> Arya's encounters are not coincidences at all, they are vital plot
> elements.
Ah, then we quibble over terminology. If there is a suggested point
that we do not agree with, naturally we will consider this a
credulity-straining coincidence rather than a plot element. If there
is one we agree with, we will be more kindly inclined towards it and
decide it is a plot element (or an "incidence", as I call them).
> They do require a bit of disbelief, but because they are
> vitally important to her development we can forgive them. I guess the
> same could be said of Tyrion vs. Tywin.
Exactly!
> I think this might be where you have me on the timing issue. I
> remember him being locked up for some time and can't be bothered to go
> and verify it. If this is the case, then the timing is not quite so
> coincidental as I thought.
He was locked up pretty much ever since Joffrey's wedding, so your
recollection that he was locked up for a while wasn't wrong. However,
the trial and the scheming all happened quickly, with one day of cases
followed by a second day with Shae on the stand, at which point Oberyn
agreed to stand in Tyrion's trial under the gods.
I imagine that happened the same day, or the day after at the very
latest, and then Tyrion was let out. Indeed, I can't see Tywin or
Cersei hanging around long after Oberyn died, before declaring Tyrion
guilty under the gods and having him killed.
So yeah, it pretty much had to happen within that window, especially
if Tywin wanted to use Shae and then do whatever despicable thing to
her that he was planning, and let Tyrion know about it or witness it
before he died.
> I hate to rob you of the argument, but I am
> prepared to admit when evidence does not support my opinion.
But my huge post!
Well, we found this, we'll find something else.
> Not sure, but inevitably there would have been a great wedge driven
> between Lannisters, Jaime helping Tyrion escape would have done that
> alone, and it's impossible to believe that Tywin would not have found
> this out. Given your evidence, it seems that Tyrion killing Tywin and
> essentially banishing himself would have been totally unexpected (but
> clearly quite welcome) to Varys.
I can dig it.
And the split between Jaime and Cersei was healed (or *was* it?) by
Cersei's arrest by the sparrows. Another interesting twist - and Varys
is nowhere to be seen (or *is* he?).
> > For Varys to have planned to get Tyrion to kill Tywin, he would almost
> > certainly have needed Tywin to be in such a vulnerable position. If
> > he'd been almost anywhere else when Tyrion came through that secret
> > tunnel, Tywin probably would have been able to drop-kick him.
>
> Agreed, though perhaps not as obvious. Tyrion actually turned out to
> be something of a fighter himself in the Mountains of the Moon.
> However it can certainly be given that in a fair fight, Tywin beats
> Tyrion 99% of the time.
Yep, and I reckon Varys would be wary of those odds.
> I guess the only issue I have left to tenuously stand on is that
> Tyrion was pointed in the direction of Tywin, which would seem to make
> a conflict inevitable.
Varys wanted Tyrion to know where to find Tywin, may have wanted him
to go and kill him. But he failed right there, because Tyrion didn't
do it. Until he talked to Jaime.
> Since Jaime had no reason to do this, it would
> appear that Varys was responsible for this.
Well, it was Jaime's admission that made Tyrion go back and kill
Tywin. It may not have been Jaime's desire to see Tyrion do that, but
he still made the confession - as part of his own self-discovery,
perhaps.
> The other option is that
> Tyrion knew the tunnels well enough to purposefully head toward the
> Tower after hearing Jaime's story. This is certainly possible, and
> perhaps even probable.
I don't know, I'm pretty sure (as mentioned way back at the start of
this discussion) Varys did mention that the Hand used that tunnel in
days of yore, and it went straight out to the Hand's private chambers.
Or maybe Jaime mentioned this.
Damn it, I'll have to re-read it.
> Unless Varys' escape route would lead to the confrontation, which I
> suspect is the case.
But it didn't. Varys may have known Tyrion would run into Jaime, and
indeed he did. Whether that was a success or a failure depends on
whether Varys was godlike enough to know Jaime would convince Tyrion
to go back, or whether Varys wanted Jaime to capture Tyrion (or Tyrion
to kill Jaime). It's all just a confused mess which is what happens
when people try to make out that Varys can puppet-master everything.
> Put those two together and you
> are going to have some fireworks, no matter what Jaime said. I know
> that it is pivotal to your perception of events that Tyrion went there
> on his own,
Um, no ... you are mistaken. I've said from the start that Tyrion knew
how to get to the Tower of the Hand because of Varys. It is (apart
from the fact that Varys freed him) the most important "coincidence"
that Varys was a part of.
The fact that Tyrion ignored this hint until such time as Jaime
changed his mind, suggests that this is at best a Varys-plot that only
succeeded by incredible luck on Varys's part. Which is not by any
means a usual Varys-plot. And leads me to wonder just what he wanted
to happen.
It also pays to remember that Varys went on the lam pretty much at
this exact point too. Maybe all he wanted was a jailbreak, and
anything else that happened was a bonus. They'd be looking for a
dwarf, not a genitalia-reduced master of disguise.
> but I think it quite likely that Varys had something to do
> with him heading in instead of out (which would make more sense as an
> escape route, and we know from other POVs that there is at least one
> direct route from the dungeon to the Bay).
As I've said all along, Varys was responsible for Tyrion knowing where
to go. *Jaime*, however, is responsible for Tyrion going there.
Varys's plan, if plan it was, fell apart when Tyrion went "uh huh" and
walked away. It came back together, in a completely un-Varysish way,
when Jaime slapped the Tysha Confession on his brother's head.
> For your argument to hold
> up, Tyrion would have to know the route from dungeon to Tower, which
> we have no evidence that he did.
Not at all.
> > I prefer the motivation and opportunity to come from the wronged
> > partner, not from some amazing nadless Jigsaw-style puppeteer.
>
> Well, he still is an amazing nadless Jigsaw-style puppeteer, no matter
> what his involvement was with this incident.
No, he's an amazing nadless puppeteer, which makes him believable,
readable, and enjoyable.
> > Maybe, but he never would have been there if it hadn't been for
> > Jaime's revelation. So much for Varys's plan.
>
> Not definite unless you assume (as you clearly do) that Tyrion knew
> enough about the tunnels to go where he wanted to go.
No no no no, see above. You're on the wrong track in fixating on this.
He never would have gone back if it hadn't been for Jaime. Fact.
The fact that he knew where to go is an *unrelated fact*.
He did know where he wanted to go, at each step. He knew which way was
out, because Varys told him, and he knew which way was in, because
Varys had told him before he headed out. He headed back in because of
Jaime.
But I want to have another read-through of this, anyway.
> This might require a re-read as the context of Tyrion's
> jailbreak would probably reveal the truth of this.
Quite so.
> > Half-Cunt Druid.
>
> But what would he turn into when he shapeshifted? Disturbing images.
Alien face-hugger.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<aardw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The Kingsguard was not abusive towards royalty.
Well, these guys weren't necessarily abusive, unless you count the
fact that they were the only people there looking after a pregnant
woman and were not letting anyone else through or her out. I mean,
that might be abusive ... but ordering them, and Lyanna, into that
situation in the first place is plain mad.
>Was it possible that
>Rhaegar married her in secret for some reason?
This is the crux of the whole Prince Who Was Promised thaery-arc, yes.
>Perhaps because he knew
>there was an uprising forming.
There wasn't one, I always suspected, before the whole
Lyanna-incident. Robert went to war for her. Maybe it was coming
anyway?
>Or he knew that she was the mother of
>the Quisach Haderach and must therefore be protected?
Yes, there it is. At least this was what we are led to believe.
>I think that making this particularly summation of the scenario less
>sketchy would solve the whole Jon parentage question.
Indeed.
>Ned and Rhaegar were lovers and Lyanna was contracted to have their
>love-child! This is why Jon is Ned's bastard son. This is why Rhaegar
>was so protective of Lyanna.
And that's why Ned went to King's Landing with Robert even though he
knew it would kill him! And that's why the deer stuck its prong in the
direwolf! Gadzooks man, do you know what this *means*?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The Kingsguard was not abusive towards royalty. Was it possible that
>> Rhaegar married her in secret for some reason? Perhaps because he knew
>> there was an uprising forming. Or he knew that she was the mother of
>> the Quisach Haderach and must therefore be protected?
>
>I think it fairly certain that the Kingsguard did not know about her
>being pregnant with Rhaegar's child (assuming that this is the case)
Concur. If they'd known that, there would be even more holes in Ned's
bastard-story, and they *would* have been actively cruel in denying
anyone entry. It's funny that they didn't let her brother in, but it
may be that they didn't even know Lyanna was there. Maybe they thought
Rhaegar's real family was there? Wouldn't point of view chapters later
on have let us know what Barristan etc. thought of the whole situation
in hindsight, if they'd found out one way or another.
I'm just not sure. If they'd known enough to make their fight with Ned
villainous, he would have reviled them in his memory. If they'd been
that pig-ignorant and still fought unquestioningly, he would have
thought less of them. Mind you, if they had genuinely thought they
were doing their duty and Ned believed it...
Unless of course they were pretty much doing as they were told, and
Ned deceived them all and *that's* why he thinks kindly of them in
hindsight...
>and with the time it is difficult to tell if Rhaegar would have known,
>since we don't know how long he was out fighting and away from the
>Tower.
Wow, you think he was away since before she showed signs of pregnancy?
This doesn't sound like prophecy-man to me.
> think the story leads you to believe that she was being
>protected against Robert and Eddard coming to get her, but to leave
>the Kingsguard for that seems unlikely.
Indeed. It seems strange.
>I think we can be certain that this issue will bear quite a bit of
>explanation, assuming that Martin actually finishes the series. You
>can be certain that this will NOT be revealed in the next book. So
>another ten years or so before we find the answer...
Personally, when it comes to the boring-arse story of Jon Snow's
haunted past and unknown mysterious parentage, I feel I can wait that
long quite easily.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>> I think there are definite examples where we can see, in the story,
>> Tywin making foolish or non-optimal decisions simply because Tyrion
>> has suggested otherwise. And several of his interactions with Tyrion
>> show a hatred that is hot enough to border on the pathological.
>
>Curious, and I am not prepared to argue this because I haven't read
>those parts in quite a while. But in my hazy recollection, I do
>remember some less than rational decisions from Tywin regarding
>Tyrion, and can't seem to recall any regarding anyone else...
Yeah. Quite aside from the final scene between Tyrion and Tywin, I
distinctly recall one scene where Tywin says some amazingly harsh
things to Tyrion, about not being able to prove he's not his son, and
so on. I remember reading that and thinking that anyone who could say
something like that to anyone, let alone his own son, would pretty
much be capable of any spiteful and irrational deed in the service of
that hatred.
>I think there might be a point of compromise, as I bowed to on the
>other thread (mercifully shortened). I think your interpretation of
>this relationship might be a little better founded, though I remain
>confident that hatred of this vitality must be based on adversarial
>hostility rather than contempt. Your points actually convinced me of
>that.
Hooray for my points!
>> And his psycho-sexual treatment of whores, perceived or otherwise
>> (yes, I have been watching "Criminal Minds", since you ask), leaves me
>> with no trouble believing he would use Shae in this way before deeming
>> her disposable. If anything, the biggest lump of salt to swallow along
>> with this idea is the fact that to fuck Shae, he would have to take
>> Tyrion's sloppy seconds. That, if nothing else, seems a bit difficult
>> to imagine Tywin doing. Although maybe he was used to that idea, if he
>> was familiar with whores.
>
>I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I initially disagreed that this
>made sense, if you see my meaning.
Not even for a moment. *grin*
I thought you were all up in arms about it because you thought it
would be cooler if Varys arranged the whole thing for some mysterious
Varys-reason.
>Tywin taking her as something like
>spoils for the victor does not speak to contempt but more to "In your
>face", I got the better of you, which implies that this was something
>worthy of celebration.
Fair enough.
>The Tyrion as worthy adversary for Tywin
>(though Tywin surely never admitted this even to himself) really
>changes my whole opinion of the scenario. My original impression of
>their relationship was lacking this vital element.
Heh, I can just see at it eating at Tywin for all those years, that he
had these two wonderful golden Lannister kids and they turned out to
be psycho little freaks, and then he had this stunted little monster
who everybody laughed about, and he was the best one of the whole lot.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I think so too, but she was dreadfully stupid. Not that she had much
>> choice. She was pretty much doomed from the moment she first shagged
>> Tyrion. Once a commoner gets involved with a noble that way, it's all
>> over. Then she had no choic but to go to King's Landing, then she had
>> no choice but to hide out as a maid, then she (stupidly) got resentful
>> and greedy, and that was when she was dragged off by Cersei and Tywin
>> to testify against her little man.
>
>Really the only stupid thing she did was this last. She was a camp
>whore, a terrible life and one without any future. Given the
>opportunity, the smartest whore in the land would have taken the
>option she did. Agreed on the no options all the way through, until
>she finally did have an option, then she chose...poorly.
Testifying against Tyrion wasn't stupid, it was just that she had no
choice. They knew she was whoring with a Lannister noble, so they
could have disappeared her quite easily. She had to do and say
everything they told her to do and say, and this would only give her
the faintest, feeblest hope of survival available.
>> And from then on, she was really in the shit.
>>
>> Whatever she was doing in Tywin's chambers, I think her stupidity had
>> landed her there and maybe made matters worse for her, but it wasn't
>> as if she'd had any choice.
>
>Agreed, but she was not exceptionally stupid. Greedy and short-sighted
>certainly. But she wasn't a Rhodes Scholar, she was a camp whore!
Agreed.
>However, given that the only choices she did have she made wrong, I
>guess if she had been given more options, she could have made them
>even more disastrously. No way to know now, the one really bad choice
>(turning on Tyrion) followed by her decision to hop in bed with Tywin
>(assuming she was all that involved in the decision it would be a
>natural evolution of the first bad choice) are all that we really know
>about her intelligence.
Yeah. I think her stupidity got her into trouble, but blinding
intelligence wouldn't have necessarily saved her. She was resentful
that Tyrion was making her into his maid, when she should have
realised he was doing the best for her all along. She probably agreed
readily to turn on Tyrion, especially if Tywin made it clear that he
was not pleased to find her in King's Landing, and basically leant on
her. She'd know he could make it difficult for her, although she might
not be aware *how* difficult. The smallfolk seemed to be slow learners
about these Westerosi nobles.
C&J
Ben
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:35:41 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> >whore, a terrible life and one without any future. Given the
> >opportunity, the smartest whore in the land would have taken the
> >option she did. Agreed on the no options all the way through, until
> >she finally did have an option, then she chose...poorly.
>
> Testifying against Tyrion wasn't stupid, it was just that she had no
> choice. They knew she was whoring with a Lannister noble, so they
> could have disappeared her quite easily. She had to do and say
> everything they told her to do and say, and this would only give her
> the faintest, feeblest hope of survival available.
>
testimony, I don't suspect they had to work her very hard to get her
to flip on Tyrion. She seemed very cold-blooded at the end, and in
retrospect also. If she was very bright, she might have figured that
Tyrion would do his damndest to save her life and stuck by him rather
than turning on him and jumping in bed (quite literally) with folks
who could not give two shits about her. But she probably would have
been killed either way by Tywin, so I guess she made a decision that
made sense.
>
> Yeah. I think her stupidity got her into trouble, but blinding
> intelligence wouldn't have necessarily saved her. She was resentful
> that Tyrion was making her into his maid, when she should have
> realised he was doing the best for her all along. She probably agreed
> readily to turn on Tyrion, especially if Tywin made it clear that he
> was not pleased to find her in King's Landing, and basically leant on
> her. She'd know he could make it difficult for her, although she might
> not be aware *how* difficult. The smallfolk seemed to be slow learners
> about these Westerosi nobles.
>
If I am remembering correctly, Tyrion also gave her the opportunity to
get while the getting was good before things went to hell. Also if she
would have kept her head down she might never have come to the
attention of the nastier Lannisters, but I seem to remember her making
some waves. She clearly had no idea who Tywin was, though you would
think that Tyrion might have told her some things. He seemed the type
to ramble on about family problems after coitus. But that's just
conjecture...
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:28:53 -0800 (PST), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
Cut a lot out of this one as several of my arguments at this point
seem rather tenuous. I'll have to write up a new one so we can find
something new to argue about.
>
> I still have faith in Martin's ability to plot-wrangle. I would like
> to be surprised rather than bored by whatever happens regarding Jon's
> past. Ideal, for me, would be for it all to go un-learned, the
> questions unanswered, and the whole point to be rendered unimportant
> by some unforeseen development.
>
One thing that made me such a fan (even before aSoIaF) of Martin's is
that he is very gifted at surprising plot-twists. Not just M. Night
Shamalyan style wrenches, but actual hooks that make you go "whoa". I
would be very pleased to see him pull the rabbit out of the hat on
this one as well.
> A close second, to me, would be the confirmation of the Jon Targaryen
> Theory at the cost of everything we thought we knew about Noble Ned.
> No way could you keep a secret like this without bumping off a few
> people.
>
Even just a few dark and underhanded things would make this work. I
don't see this happening, though. I don't have a lot to base this on,
but I don't see Ned coming out as a grim and ruthless fellow.
> On the whole, though, the idea that Jon is the secret Prince of
> Destiny with a mysterious past where he was the unity of Targaryen and
> Stark is just lame.
>
Yeah, and Martin has rarely been lame.
> Danaerys and Jon are meant to be "the song of ice and fire". But
> Danaerys is pure Targaryen all the way through, like rock candy. Jon,
> as the ice side of the deal, is ... what? Half-Stark, half-Targaryen?
> That's a bit diluted, isn't it? Better by far if Arya turns out to be
> the ice side of the deal. But then, as a wise Series 4000 Mechanoid
> once said, "better anything than that toupee."
>
I like it, and considering the depth of Arya's development it would be
reasonable. Maybe Jon is the third (the blend)? A lot of this story
still to tell, though.
>
> > Possible, but given the source? That Ned could lie is tough, that he
> > could come up with an excellently constructed lie that stood up to
> > interrogation? Seems preposterous.
>
> Unless, as stated, we have been dramatically and awesomely misinformed
> about Ned.
>
Which would be a cool plot hook. But I don't see it. I still think Ned
is exactly who he seems to be.
> And Rhaegar, it can only be hoped. See, one of the foundation stones
> of the Jon Targaryen Thaery is that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna and
> rape her, but that they were in wuv. The scenes of the winter rose and
> the tourney and all that, not to mention Lyanna's flashback-scenes
> talking about Robert, seem to suggest it. And everyone seems hell-bent
> on Rhaegar being a nice guy even though nobody who knew him really
> talks about it (except Ned, who is a fairly reliable barometer for
> evil).
>
And this is the deal-breaker for Rhaegar being dark and twisted. Ned
seems to have a very good recognition of him, has what appears to be
very legitimate reasons to hate and despise him, but instead seems to
have some reverence for him. The only way this works is that Ned was
really completely ignorant of the situation, which is something I am
prepared to believe. He was not the most aware fellow.
> But there is still a chance for all this to be turned on its head in a
> fantastic way, for example:
>
> Rhaegar digs up this nutty prophecy about the Prince Who Was Promised,
> and decides, in a foaming nutty-arsed Targaryen way, that it's to be
> his son. However, his kids with Elia Martell (uh, or whoeverthefuck)
> just don't seem to work out, so he hatches this plot to woo, and
> ultimately kidnap and screw the shit out of, Lyanna Stark. When Lyanna
> is kidnapped, Mr. Stark and his eldest son raise the roof and Aerys,
> with Rhaegar's full support, has them brutally executed.
>
I actually don't have a problem with this and it doesn't contradict
anything we know now. Maybe he even had some kind of genetic prophecy
saying it had to be a wolf-dragon, which would fit in nicely with
Daenerys' visions. I also don't see Rhaegar (and certainly not Aerys)
having any moral problem with killing the Starks to make this happen.
We have no evidence that the Targaryens had any particular respect for
the North.
> Cue the Robellion.
>
> Rhaegar goes off with his army to get his chest landscaped at the
> Trident, but not before shipping Lyanna off to the Tower of Joy with a
> few of the "good" Kingsguard and orders to defend her with their
> lives. Their obedience to this strange order would need to be
> explained, but we can manage for now because this needs to be
> explained for every version of this Thaery. In the meantime, Tywin
> lets the enemy into King's Landing, Jaime kills Aerys and Gregor kills
> Rhaegar's legitimate family, none of which he gives a shit about
> because he is bugfuck insane and believes that Lyanna is bearing the
> True Messiah. Indeed, he probably left Elia and the kids without a
> single Kingsguard to protect them specifically because he *wanted*
> them to die in the battle.
>
Any number of explanations would serve why they were there, whether
they had any understanding or not. This group did not appear to be all
that knowledgeable and interpretive. In fact it is unlikely that Aerys
(who presumably appointed most of them, if not all of them) would
allow anyone with an independent streak to become a Kingsguard. He
wasn't one to be questioned.
Rhaegar wouldn't have to be nuts to make this happen, just a bit
amoral regarding the Dornish children of his. This I think is possible
as the Targaryens blood diluted by Martell would not be quite so
important. Plus Rhaegar must have inherited some qualities from Aerys,
who was not only mad as a hatter, but also quite inhuman, which isn't
necessarily the same thing.
> Ned and Howland bust their way into the Tower of Joy and find Lyanna
> just about dead, but she's had nine months of torture and brainwashing
> to go completely Oldtown Syndrome on him, and Ned can't bring himself
> to kill the child that Lyanna now believes is so important. She dies,
> and Ned is there with the baby and Howland "Mister Wolf" Reed goes,
> "okay, damage control..."
>
Lyanna as Patti Hearst, I like it... Also it explains Ned's ignorance
regarding Rhaegar slightly (if you discount the obvious physical
torture). I like this story a bit better if it was nearly all mental,
and Lyanna actually was in pretty good physical condition at the
Tower, but totally devoted to the Prince, whatever she felt when she
first went to the tower.
> Next thing you know, Ned is marching out of there with an inexplicable
> baby, stopping by at Starfall or wherever and finding a
> conveniently-pregnant or just-birthed Ashara Dayne, leaving Howland
> behind there to throw her off a building and spread rumours that the
> baby was Ned's, and then riding off into the sunset with Wylla and her
> unstoppable bursting corset-gourds.
>
This is where it goes off the rails a bit. Where did the baby come
from? Was Ashara already associated with Ned? Where did the baby
(whether born or not) go? Who in Starfall gives a damn about Howland
Reed (even in the North this guy was obscure)? And the Dayne family
(presumably a fairly powerful one at this point, though clearly not in
the present)? No objections to any of this? This also makes Wylla very
aware of what was going on (which appears to be the case regardless),
which supports one of the earlier questions I had.
> The rest, as they say, is history. Ned goes home and spins some
> cock-and-bull story to his new wife about how Jon is his blood, and
> she is a moron so doesn't even think about it after that. Howland has
> spread enough rumours to make sure Catelyn can dig all she likes and
> find only evidence pointing at Ashara Dayne. Ned and Howland never
> really talk to each other again, a conspiracy of silence and murder
> that turns Ned into a puritan saint in a mad over-correction and sees
> Howland basically exiled to his dominion of Greywater Watch.
>
I think the original acceptance of Jon as the bastard son is okay
because Catelyn didn't care that much about Ned at this point, having
just lost her presumed true love. Only later would she start to
question it, if ever. This only works though if Catelyn didn't dig all
that deep, as Wylla certainly would have known something, and the
Dayne clan would also. I do like all of this resulting in Reed being
banished. Great reward for loyal service...
> After Ned dies, of course, Howland sends out his kids to follow in his
> footsteps. Damage control.
>
There's some real dedication for you!
>
> My original problem with the whole Jon Targaryen Thaery sort of hinged
> on the fact that Ned, as we (thought we) knew him, just didn't have it
> in his character to carry out such a barefaced deception. I say again,
> this is a guy who found out that Cersei and Jaime Lannister were
> breeding a clutch of nutty abominations behind the King's back, and
> went to Cersei with his evidence.
>
Still some significant contradictions there, though I think your
theory has some validity (assuming the over-arching reason for it is
true).
> This is also a guy who killed his daughter's pet because the Queen
> said so, even though Lady had nothing to do with anything, just to
> keep from making waves. I am quite happy to believe that there were
> elements of Ned's character that we don't know about fully yet, and
> these might explain one of the most glaring inconsistencies in the Jon
> Targaryen Thaery.
>
That's the issue, it would involve us learning a whole heckuva lot
about Ned after he isn't around to defend himself. Seems a bit iffy on
the face of it, but who knows?
>
> My own developing Thaery notwithstanding, I suspect that Martin will
> find a way. Most likely, he will not explain any of the
> inconsistencies but leave them to be debated (after all, a long
> exposition by Howland Reed wouldn't exactly make for compelling
> storytelling), perhaps revealing to certain characters that Jon is the
> lost son of Rhaegar, perhaps just revealing it to the readers before
> going off on a tangent and making the whole revelation into a sort of
> deliciously ironic highlight when Jon fucks/kills Danaerys and steals
> her dragons, or something. Or, as you say, dies himself in some weird
> Stephen-King-afterthought sort of way where the author realises he has
> to kill more good guys.
>
More likely he will die, but not all that likely. He certainly won't
steal the dragons, though I think the likelihood of him ending up with
Danaerys is almost certain. We will certainly lose some more good guys
(who's left?), but probably not Jon. Maybe Reed himself (as you
pointed out earlier)? I agree that the exposition would be boring, and
wouldn't be Martin-esque in any regard.
>
> Indeed, I don't think they were even on the Trident with him, although
> the Tower of Joy may not have been far away. They fought hard enough
> to need to be subdued, but weren't killed, while Rhaegar was. And yet
> Ned doesn't think poorly of them.
>
I thought he had a few of the Kingsguard with him on the Trident? I
really have to re-read this. Ned actually thinks of them as worthy
rivals, certainly. I also thought a few of them got killed on the
Trident. Wasn't that where The Sword of Morning bought it? Or was that
at the Tower?
> I'm trying to work this into my Evil Ned Thaery (aka. Evil Ned 3, Army
> of Starkness), and it goes a little something like this:
>
> Rhaegar (unbeknownst to Ned, but knownst to us) arranged with Tywin to
> betray the city, but he also made sure his father knew where the
> wildfire was buried. When Jaime killed Aerys, it stymied that plan and
> allowed Tywin to take the city. Net result: Rhaegar dies at the
> Trident smelling of roses, while Tywin and Jaime look like giant
> douchebags in Ned's eyes because they betrayed their posts. Ned,
> fighting to avenge his family, had no sworn position to betray (aside
> from his oath to the throne, which may be part of his ongoing and
> disastrous attempts to be a goody two-shoes the rest of his life) and
> so he could afford to look down on Jaime and Tywin.
>
Here the stretch is too much. I can't conceive of Rhaeger being
involved in the betrayal of the city. I also may be missing the point.
What would Aerys have done with the wildfire? Burned King's Landing?
Why? I think you are thinking something bigger than I am reading here.
From Net result on I am with you, but the earlier part doesn't make
sense to me. I also think that Ned could have broken his oath to the
crown because of the dead brother and father, kidnapped and raped
sister, etc. No real objection to that, and it's certainly textually
supported.
> Or, even more delicious, he hates them precisely because of all the
> things they have in common. Ned betrayed the crown and went on a
> murderous conspiracy-spree in the name of protecting Lyanna's
> reputation and her child, so he sees Jaime and Tywin as an
> uncomfortable mirror of his own hypocrisy, one that is absolutely
> unapologetic for its deeds. He thinks well enough of Rhaegar because
> Lyanna swore up and down that he was a glorious man and she loved him
> (remember the Oldtown Syndrome), and the whole thing seemed to end
> fairly honourably for him, falling in battle while his family was
> betrayed. Ned may even have felt sorry for him.
>
Again I like the second part, but not so much the first part. I do
think that they had some issues in common, but I don't think that Ned
thought that. He reviled them for many reasons, and would not have
been able to believe himself like them.
> I don't know, I'm getting confused, but it rings true to me. Okay,
> well if not true, then at least awesome.
>
Some gold in them thar hills, I think.
>
> Maybe Barristan the Bold realised Rhaegar and Aerys were either going
> to be bloodily betrayed or were going to destroy the entire city in a
> hellish firestorm, so he took the assignment that was the least of all
> evils: protect a woman with child.
>
Nah, while this would be in character with our current Barristan, I
think it uncharacteristic of a Kingsguard. Much more likely he was
assigned the duty.
> He wouldn't be able to buy into Rhaegar's nutty belief in the Prince
> Who Was Promised, though, because then he would have kept tabs on Jon
> and gone to join him after being forced to retire. Instead, he went to
> Danaerys. Maybe the old idea that *Danaerys* is the Prince Who Was
> Promised was correct all along?
>
Agreed, he was nearly certainly uninformed about the prophecy. Also it
doesn't seem very Targaryen to feel the need to share it anyway.
> I don't know, Barristan is an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in
> an impractically pristine white uniform.
>
That occured to you too? Warriors in white uniforms have always been
very impractical. Barristan still has a good story to tell, though, I
agree.
> > Any of them that were there still around? I am trying to remember who
> > is left from that original Kingsguard. The group from the Trident
> > died, Jaime most certainly did not and does not know what the deal was
> > with Lyanna, and as I mentioned neither did Barristan. Oakheart is
> > dead, and he seemed particularly dense. Who else was there?
>
> I don't remember. There were at least three, I think.
>
Cheated a bit and researched:
Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, 'The White Bull'
Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning
Ser Oswell Whent
All three of these were killed at the Tower of Joy
Prince Lewyn Martell
Ser Jonothor Darry
Both of these were killed at the Trident
Leaving just Barristan and Jaime, who we talked about before.
> > This Mya Stone girl, the one that Sansa is learning how to act
> > bastardy from, how much better would the Stark clan be if she took
> > Sansa's place. Seems that the ole switcheroo has been done before
> > (like the Bolton bastard). There really isn't anyone around to argue
> > with this. Nah, won't happen, just letting my dislike of Sansa get in
> > the way...
>
> Hmm, that's true ... although a few people know her pretty well and it
> would be difficult to pass off.
>
Agreed, for Arya not so bad as nobody ever really paid attention to
her, but Sansa would be difficult to replace.
>
> Nothing to gain, I suppose. He'd pretty much gained everything he
> wanted from Shae once she had testified in court and pretty much
> signed Tyrion's death-warrant. The way she humiliated Tyrion with the
> "giant of Lannister" story was icing on the cake. I think it's safe to
> say that she would be a liability to leave around, where she might
> mention to the other servants that Tywin and Cersei had told her what
> to say, and that Tyrion had been about the nicest guy she'd ever gone
> to bed with for money.
>
Agreed on all points here.
> So they were going to kill her. I just figure Tywin would take this
> opportunity to soil her - another layer of icing on the cake, if you
> like. A free screw, one he wouldn't really have to explain to anyone
> even if he was left in a position where it was necessary (hugely
> unlikely), and an irresistible chance to spit on Tyrion one more time,
> either with or without Tyrion's knowledge. Like I said, I see no
> problem with Tywin just thoughtlessly doing something like this to
> show his disregard for both Tyrion and Shae, before stringing her up
> alongside his son on D-day. Or, even more likely, letting him know
> through a third party that she committed some dubious crime and had
> been flayed and cast out of the city, or sold into slavery. So Tyrion
> would die knowing what had happened to her.
>
Sounds like a bit of a hassle to me, but clearly you and I have
different definitions of that word.
>
> Maybe there's something in what you say about Tywin holding Tyrion in
> higher regard. I'm not necessarily backflipping because it supports my
> case, but on reflection it does seem that Tyrion is smart (I believe
> Tywin credits him with animal cunning or low sneaky intelligence or
> something offensive like that), and this only seems to stoke the fires
> of Tywin's hatred further. On all the conversations we see between
> them, Tywin seems to acknowledge Tyrion's smarts on at least a
> provisional basis, and even takes advantage of them on occasion,
> although as I recall he also ignores Tyrion when it would be in his
> best interests to listen to him (usually, I think, when there are
> others around who might snigger behind their hands at Tywin accepting
> advice from his little mutant-child). So there could be a certain
> amount of *knowledge* that Tyrion is intelligent and thoughtful, but
> that only makes Tywin hate him more. It is, as I've said, a hatred
> that seems all the more irrational and volatile compared to the
> measured way he reacts to everyone and everything else.
>
Agreed, and in any case it strengthens your overarching point
considerably.
> It's not necessarily that Tywin finds him an unworthy son, although
> the fact that Tyrion "killed" Joanna is certainly an issue. It's the
> chance, perhaps, that people will realise that Tyrion is Tywin's
> *only* worthy child, and he is a stunted deformed little monster. So
> what does that say about the rest of them?
>
Absolutely, we are on the same page here.
> And whenever Tywin sees Tyrion, he's reminded of this. I think a man
> like Tywin, in that sort of situation, would pretty much do anything
> to spit on his misbegotten child. Whether Tyrion ends up knowing about
> it or not. After all, Tyrion is due to die around this point so
> there's a difference between this and the other instances where Tywin
> has hurt and humiliated him.
>
Yes, and here is where it gets interesting. Most of what we guess we
know about Tywin comes from Tyrion's POV, and Tyrion clearly felt that
Tywin had NO respect for him, simply despised him wholeheartedly. We
never get a Tywin POV where he says "Damn this little mutant is
clever! I hate him even more now!"
>
> Heh, that sounds like a contradiction to me. How could he be unlikely
> to manifest "hatred enough to screw his girlfriend just to have the
> pleasure of humiliating him, then telling him about it later", but be
> more likely to make Tyrion watch?
>
That was the point, that it would have made more sense in that regard
(as it was it didn't so much). In any case I have been completely worn
over on the hatred part, so it's irrelevant.
> I think, on further reflection, that Tywin might not have wanted
> Tyrion to know about Shae, mainly because it would reveal his giant
> cunty hypocrisy and make Tyrion go all smarmy and say "I thought
> whores were bad, father dear?" Wouldn't stop him from fucking her on
> the side, just because he could, but it might not be in support of his
> dynamic with Tyrion to fuck a whore in front of him.
>
I like this very much. An impulsive decision to bonk her, then some
"Now what?" afterward. Perhaps that was what he was thinking about on
the john.
> Having Shae sexually degraded by a number of other men and livestock,
> however, would certainly be in his repertoire. It's been done,
> however, and it may not have the same effect with Shae (after she'd
> turned on him in court) as it had with Tysha.
>
Considering the relative affection level, it would have had much less
effect for certain.
> Although, on yet another hand, Tyrion did seem to make his peace with
> what Shae had done in the courtroom, thinking only that she was not
> saving herself but would die in spite of her betrayal. It wasn't like
> she had much of a choice. Like Bronn, Tyrion saw that it had been a
> contract between them and now there was a better contract on offer.
>
Didn't make him think any better of her, as you point out.
> Didn't stop him from killing her when he found her in Tywin's bed, but
> there's the thing. If Varys put her there, hoping that Tyrion would
> double back and find her, it would really only ensure that Tyrion
> would kill Shae. He'd be more likely to crow about it to his father,
> not kill him in patricidal rage. *That* came from the Tysha issue.
>
Never disagreed with the source of the anger and why he killed Tywin.
And as mentioned before, I think I am prepared to backslide on the
Varys mastermind issue.
> Varys could have killed Shae off a lot more easily. And Tywin, for
> that matter. Too much depended on factors outside his control, and his
> choice of weapon was (as stated in another message) also interesting.
> And it's all just too direct. A weird mix of too-direct and
> too-convoluted.
>
Agreed, and I won't even add a but... to that.
>
> Interesting point. I wonder why he didn't just put her in the stocks
> for any passing dude to fuck, the way Pia was dealt with at Harrenhal.
> Maybe he decided to give her a ride first, something I still believe
> is related to his all-consuming hatred of Tyrion, regardless of
> whether it is based in true scorn or scorn layered furiously over the
> top of the knowledge that Tyrion is the superior Lannister, possessed
> of traits none of the others seem capable of displaying.
>
Yep, need to just delete these but I saw your dismay at your long post
pleading a won argument so I'll just go through and acknowledge each
one in turn.
>
> She was effectively in custody as a servant of the castle, and had
> been ever since Tyrion brought her there. Once she was "bought out" by
> Cersei and Tywin, she was still in a similar sort of custody although
> most likely a bit more controlled. So then and there, perhaps, her
> term of custody was being carried out in Tywin's bedroom, but that was
> a moot point. At a slightly later point, *Tyrion's* term of custody
> was carried out in Tywin's bedroom as well.
>
> There was no need to add "in his bedroom" to what I said and attempt
> to pass it off as my statement. That was just made up, to no real
> purpose. And it wasn't what I said, so there was no point in trying to
> tell me it was. And the addition of those words was what made it
> possible to even debate the point. Strawman.
>
You like that term, but in this case it does not apply. Adding the "in
his bedroom" was clearly not an argument that you said that, and you
even acknowledge that you understood it was my attempt at smarminess.
In any case I never argued, or seemed to argue, that you actually said
anything like this. I was simply pointing out the silliness of the
custody that you were talking about taking place in his bedroom, which
it did. Still think it's kind of silly and dopy on Tywin's part, but
we are not going to agree on that.
>
> There really was no hassle, so there's not much to explain anyway.
>
Not worth arguing about, and it's the heart of the next thirty or so
lines. I think it was pretty clearly a hassle and you do not. Agree to
disagree.
>
> Remember, Tywin wasn't necessarily done by the time he was shot. He
> was just taking a crap while he thought about what to do with Tyrion
> and/or Shae next.
>
Some of my best thinking takes place while taking a dump. Ever wonder
why it's taking a crap and not leaving one? Things that make you go
hmm...
>
> The alternative is that Tywin had no idea Shae was there, which meant
> that Varys put her there, which probably meant he drugged her because
> no way would she have believed that Tywin wanted to screw her after
> all she'd heard from Tyrion, which meant that it was amazing luck that
> Tyrion arrived with a single-shot weapon to find Tywin on the toilet
> and Shae wearing a garrote around her neck, unless of course Varys put
> the chain there and also made sure somehow that Tywin was on the can,
> which would almost have to be the case if he was going to sneak Shae
> into the apartment and set her up naked on the bed in his chain of
> office while he was safely out of the room.
>
This was always the weakest part of my thought, which is why it was
fairly easy to convince me this part was not Varys. Mostly just an
issue of me not reading the proper depth into it.
>
> > That's where I don't see the Tywin that you do. Making a lot of
> > presumptions about him that the reader doesn't know enough to confirm.
> > First, that he was a horny fellow (no evidence of that),
>
> Except that he's, you know, a guy.
>
But we get plenty of opportunity to find out who is horny. In fact,
the only horny Lannisters appear to be Tyrion and Cersei. Jaime likes
to screw his sister (fairly infrequently) but we don't see him
interested in anybody else. Even Cersei might not be, she just
recognize the power of the vag. However this might be yet another
similarity between Tywin and Tyrion, but we don't have any real
evidence for it.
> > that he loved
> > to bang whores (no evidence of that),
>
> Well, we're taking his puritan attitude where Tyrion's whoring is
> concerned, combined with his general demeanour of not giving a crap
> where anyone else is concerned, his treatment of "whores" in the past,
> and the fact that he betrayed no surprise at all when he saw that
> Tyrion had entered the apartment using the secret tunnel that the Hand
> classically used to traffic whores.
>
Conjecture there. The last hand did (Tyrion himself), but the few
before that (Jon Arryn and Ned) almost certainly did not. And Tywin
using it that way is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Again something we
have no evidence for. In fact we have no evidence that ANY Hand
(besides Tyrion) used it this way, though the odds are that some of
them did.
> But basically, this incident just throws his entire backstory at us as
> a colossal cunty hypocrisy, and that is simply incredible writing.
>
True enough.
>
> I raise my eyebrows dubiously at this, but accept your general point.
> I guess if you really think someone is nothin', it's hard to get
> excited about screwing someone who has evidently deemed him worthy of
> sack-time. Maybe a whore is a different concept.
>
Maybe, and on this point I don't have enough knowledge to make an
accurate assessment. But to Tyrion, Shae was certainly more than just
a whore.
>
> Fair cop. Tywin did hate Tyrion that much more incandescently because
> of his sharp wit and tactical / social knowledge.
>
Ah, something we can compromise on in this bitter debate!
>
> I'm not seeing the hassle, would you care to explain it to me?
>
Read a little bit further down.
>
> > Here you argue with yourself. Did he hide it? Or did he just scare
> > everybody and they didn't look into it? Or did he just not give a shit
> > what people thought?
>
> Probably a little bit of each, depending on the people and situations
> involved. That's how it works. You don't react the same way to every
> situation. Not even if you're a robot ice Lord like Tywin Lannister.
> His reactions to Tyrion clearly show that he's capable of acting in
> different ways with different people.
>
Sure, not arguing any different. The point is not the different
actions, it's whether all that would be a hassle or not.
> In this specific case, of Shae in his chambers, I would say his
> reaction to any questions or discovery would depend on the other
> parties involved. You keep bringing up different possibilities, it's
> not really a stretch to imagine Tywin would react to those different
> possibilities in different ways. Is it?
>
Of course not, and not the point I was making in any regard.
> > You've argued each of those, none of which appear
> > to agree with each other. What all of this says to me is that there
> > certainly was a hassle involved, and that is basically my argument,
> > that boffing Shae is not worth the hassle.
>
> I'm not sure how those sentences logically follow from one another,
> but if you think there was a hassle (perhaps a risk of his being found
> out with a whore and discredited in front of the court or his family
> or his men), I'm not seeing it.
>
I think our respective definitions of hassle are the problem here. You
define hassle as "major political scandal potentially ruining your
family" while I define it as "I need to get rid of this whore and make
sure that nobody knows she was here". In modern terms, your hassle is
the equivalent apparently of cheating on your wife and getting caught,
while my definition of hassle is flirting with a receptionist at work
and her responding when you weren't really interested in the first
place. Uncomfortable, but not life-damaging. Note that I am not trying
to put words in your mouth, but trying to understand you not seeing
the hassle (fairly minor inconvenience, but an inconvenience
nonetheless) if it is not a calamity (which there are any number of
better defining terms for than hassle).
> Especially since Tywin summoning Shae to his bed is about the only
> alternative that doesn't involve enough Varys to ruin both the power
> of Tyrion's scene and the mystique surrounding Varys.
>
Okay, and I get your point here regarding the power of the story. It's
valid, though not as important an element to me as it is to you.
>
> I think there is evidence to support Tywin's actions, hypocritical at
> best and borderline psychopathic at worst. As I said in my earlier
> post, it is there in his scenes with Tyrion if you opt to read them
> that way. It is, of course, a matter of conjecture since we are never
> going to get a break-down of his life and times and thoughts and
> deeds.
>
Indeed, and I think that there is some room to vary opinions on
Tywin's character and motivations.
> But I'm really not seeing this "hassle" that seems to be the lynchpin
> of your objection.
>
See above. Note that I never defined this as anything earth-shaking,
just something not worth doing. Clearly for Tywin it was worth doing,
so the point is moot. However it was a hassle (by a normal definition
of hassle), and one that a rational person would almost certainly
avoid.
>
> Could be, I was hasty in my assessment because to me, screwing another
> man's woman would be a sign of low regard rather than the opposite.
> You know, hypothetically.
>
I realistically think it could be either one, A) this little bastard
doesn't mean enough to me that I worry about screwing his girl; or B)
I am going to screw his girl, that'll show the little bastard. The
second option clearly shows some intent to harm and also some desire
to bring that individual down. Given these two options, the second
seems much more appropriate in this context.
> Of course, that the "high regard" Tywin felt would be deeply
> submerged, not to mention devastatingly infuriating to him, is now
> something I am considering. It wouldn't necessarily be that Tywin (as
> it looked like you were suggesting) was secretly watching Tyrion and
> going "what a guy, I couldn't have done that, that's my boy."
>
> It was more like he was watching Tyrion and thinking "You disgusting
> little troll, how dare you stand there and make me look like an idiot,
> how dare you make yourself look kind and wise at my expense, just like
> everything that has ever happened to you has happened at my
> expense..."
>
> Which is a form of high regard, I'll give you that.
>
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking. Overt loathing hiding
concealed admiration (deeply concealed, but nonetheless present).
>
> I don't doubt it. I was aiming at the "hated him enough to do the
> illogical" angle, since there is a certain amount of backing for it in
> the books. But I suppose Tyrion's intellectual and moral superiority
> would also be a factor, even if Tywin didn't acknowledge it - ever.
>
Couldn't acknowledge it, or else he would have to evaluate everything
he had done. This was not someone I think who looked back on the past.
>
> Hmm, not entirely sure it translates as "respect" in this case,
> though. The unwelcome knowledge that Tyrion is clever and worthy did
> lead Tywin to use his "low cunning" on occasion, but it was never
> something he openly admitted. I think for it to be respect, it has to
> actually be acknowledged.
>
> What do you think? Could we compromise on "grudging admiration" or
> even "grudging acceptance of worth"?
>
Absolutely, and respect probably wasn't the best word. I would think
even more remote than "grudging" since he never openly acknowledged it
at all. More "deep subconscious awareness of worth".
>
> I just don't think there would be any difficulty for Tywin in dealing
> with something like this. Look at the giant clusterfuck of justice he
> already arranged for Tyrion's benefit. The Lannisters are innate
> schemers in the court.
>
Sure, and that Tywin could have done it without too much trouble is
absolutely true. But for me, that's still kind of a pain. Hell, maybe
Tywin liked doing that dance, but I don't think that he did, given his
otherwise fairly direct character. Even the evil shit that he did he
did fairly openly (with a few notable exceptions).
> It certainly doesn't balance against the "hassle" that Varys would
> have to go through in order to construct that whole scene himself.
>
Now this is a very valid point. It would have required immense effort
on Varys' part. Not that he couldn't have done it, but it certainly
would have been a logistical nightmare.
>
> Indeed, on this I very readily agree. I don't think at any point I
> have been operating under a contrary assumption, for example that
> Tywin might have believed for a second that Tyrion was as defective
> and inferior as he always claimed. Maybe I could have said that more
> clearly from the start.
>
Well it was your points that made this clearer to me, so I think I got
that, in a roundabout way.
>
> Like I said, Tywin's evening was just getting started when Tyrion
> interrupted it with the old "crossbow bolt in the bowels" ploy.
>
Yeah, though I wonder what would have come next. Not really all that
important, but there would have been some work involved I am sure
(thus the "hassle" <grin>)
>
> Granted.
>
> I don't think what Tywin did to Tysha was any more of a "hassle" than
> what he did to Shae - or was working on doing to her.
>
Now I am certain that our definitions vary. I think that having a
whole squad of guards essentially rape someone on your direct order is
certainly a hassle. I know that Tywin was not the guy to worry about
anyone testifying openly, but this is another one of these issues
where Tywin opened himself up to be hated. Who does this? Just to make
a point to their son? A vicious, cruel, and evil point involving the
rape of a poor peasant girl and the complicity of at least a dozen
men? That to me is quite a bit more of a hassle than the Shae thing
would have been. And to say it was no hassle makes it clear that "You
keep using that word, I do na' think it means what you think it
means".
>
> Convenient, sure. In that it was the only time it really could have
> happened, and made for a great scene. There's a lot of such
> "convenience" in the story if you break it down. It was convenient
> that the direwolf in the beginning of the story gave birth to just
> enough puppies for each of the Stark/Snow kids to get one, it was
> convenient that one was albino, it was convenient that the mother died
> and the pups were still alive when they were found. It was convenient
> that Khal Drogo took a wound and ignored the witch's advice, allowing
> him to die and Danaerys to start on her whole quest. It was convenient
> that Arya found Jaqen in the cage with Rorge and Biter, and it was
> convenient that there was an axe there for her to throw to them,
> leading to her whole storyline with the coin and the Faceless Men. It
> was convenient that Gregor killed Oberyn but was also almost killed
> himself, it was convenient that Theon found a couple of kids he could
> butcher and pretend were Bran and Rickon ...
>
And I understand the difference between plot contrivance and tactical
coincidence. In this case I believe I mistook the two (with some
evidence I think to support me). Looking back I believe this is the
former, not the latter.
> After a while, there's only so much you can explain by saying a
> character set it up that way on purpose, and only so much you can say
> was fate. The rest, if you like, is convenient. Because otherwise it
> would be a really dull story. I don't think these "incidences" get in
> the way of that and make it in any way unbelievable. Indeed, the way I
> see Tyrion's final scene with Tywin ... it's just perfect. Nothing
> interferes with it being seamlessly, and disgustingly, realistic.
>
Sure, and I don't really question the plotlines being convenient. That
is certainly a necessity to make things happen. My only real
motivation behind this was that I thought it was cool that Varys was
able to pull this many strings together. In retrospect again, a little
tough to swallow. But as you say, I am a fan of Varys as puppetmaster,
perhaps giving him more credit than is due.
>
> Yeah, I ... wait, what? I'd like you to explain what Varys's plan was
> here, because at the moment it just makes no sense. Did he want Shae
> dead, or Tywin, or Tyrion? Tyrion wouldn't have gone back to Tywin's
> room, let alone killed him, if it hadn't been for Jaime - which had
> nothing to do with Varys. And Tyrion certainly wouldn't have gone
> after Shae to kill her.
>
> This leaves us with Varys letting Tyrion out of his cell, arming him
> and letting slip that Tywin's room is thataway. Against which I have
> never argued. The rest of what happened couldn't have been planned. It
> was just luck - luck for Varys that Tyrion happened to decide to go
> back, and luck for Tyrion that he happened upon a situation that
> allowed him to kill two people while armed with a crossbow.
>
Okay, but you do agree that Varys did set this whole thing in motion.
I never said that Varys planned to have Tyrion kill Tywin. There is no
way that he could have known that was going to go down. My thought was
much more, "put these two in the same room and watch the fireworks".
This was his plan and his plan was accomplished, though undoubtedly
with much better results than he could have foreseen. However given
his own admiration of Tyrion (which I think is the first sincere
emotion that Varys has shown), I think he at least "hoped" that Tyrion
would make something cool out of all this mess.
> It's even likely, if we want to go this far with it, that Varys was
> aware that Tywin had summoned Shae. He let Tyrion out in the hopes
> that he would go up there and find them shagging, and plant a crossbow
> bolt in Tywin in the heat of the moment. That would be Varys taking
> advantage of Shae's presence, which I can see - not actually
> orchestrating her presence, no way. Even then, his plan folded because
> Tyrion just took off, and it was only random chance that brought him
> back. Not the hallmark of a Varys-plot. Not only that, but I'm not
> sure how Varys expected Tyrion to take out two people with a single
> crossbow, and what was going to happen after he'd fired his single
> shot.
>
Sure, and if I ever conceived that Varys had actually put Shae in the
bedroom, then I was in error. That seems clearly to not be the case.
Also I'll say again that I never said that Varys planned for Tyrion to
kill Tywin, happy turning of events for everyone involved (except for
Tywin, and probably Cersei).
> Tywin being on the can, that was just cosmic poetry.
>
Oh yeah, and I guess this is why the moment would not be lessened to
have Varys involved deeply (for me at least). The resonance of getting
shot while taking a dump is just humiliating, and the perfect way for
Tywin to be remembered. Whereas if he would have died in battle, or
was poisoned or something, then the smallfolk would have remembered
him as a worthy adversary or a hated tyrant. As it is he will forever
after be remembered as "the guy who died on the shitter".
Ben
Ben
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:22:35 -0800 (PST), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> I have the same amazing ability. We must be special. Although, on this
> newsgroup, not so much. It's like hiding in plain sight.
>
people that know how to read, and at least in some cases recognize
good writing.
>
> Oh yeah. That's certainly true enough. I guess they usually get the
> budget for a good writer, a good batch of effects, or a good batch of
> actors.
>
Sometimes two out of three, almost never all three. I prefer the first
and third, but like the second. In most cases recently, we get the
second without either of the other two.
> In "Lord of the Rings", they pretty much got all three, which was why
> it cost a squillion dollars. Now in "Eragon", it seems like they got a
> huge budget because the story was this total flavor of the month, so
> they splurged on expensive actors and CGI. The script itself probably
> came pretty cheap. Indeed, my eternal inner cynic urges me to suggest
> that since they paid to get the book published, they might easily have
> paid to get it made into a movie too, so the story at least would have
> come easily.
>
Sure, and I can't picture these parents being all that shrewd
businesspeople. This book must still be blowing their minds with how
it took off. In any case, it proves that of your three elements, the
MOST important is the first, and the one most often lacking. Then
again you only get one Tolkien per generation, perhaps per century.
>
> I can't decide whether "I'm Fucking Matt Damon" or "I'm Fucking Ben
> Affleck" was funnier. I'm going to go with the latter. Strangely,
> about the only thing I have seen Silverman in was a bit-part in a
> double-episode of "Star Trek: Voyager". It was a good episode and she
> did OK, but I'm a stranger in a foreign land in that I actually liked
> "Voyager".
>
She's very kooky, but quite funny. Not a fan of Voyager myself, but I
share the strangeness with you. I can't understand why more people
didn't like Deep Space Nine. Babylon 5 was better, but Deep Space Nine
was very good, and probably has the least fans.
>
> Yeah. Asimov movies still have to have Will Smith in them for some
> reason. And while I wouldn't usually complain about that - he is a
> great sci-fi staple - for some reason his appearance in "I, Robot"
> seemed to pave the way for the whole movie being steamrolled into a
> giant flat shit.
>
Problem is that Asimov dumbed-down is not Asimov. We have yet to see
anything really clever of his hit the screen. The book this movie came
from was far superior, but was certainly not the best of Asimov. Very
popular I'll give, but certainly not his best work.
>
> Yep, I sort of liked the Narnia movies, it's a shame if they don't do
> the next one because it (if it was, as I suspect, to be "Voyage of the
> Dawntreader") was my favourite book of the series. But they do get
> increasingly wishy-washy and confusing as the series goes on, it would
> be interesting but probably not very profitable to make them into
> movies.
>
Dawn Treader was my favorite also. But it also was the first one I
ever read as a boy, so I guess it has a special place. I agree the
Narnia movies are good, well-acted, of course well written (stayed
with Lewis' for the most part), and well made. But of course there is
only so much intelligent fantasy that the "Survivor" public can
support.
> I'd watch 'em, though.
>
I as well, even if they make all nine (though some of the later ones
will never get made, too openly religious).
>
> Actually we don't even know if Howland was there, that's just my
> assumption in order to help out the Jon Targaryen fold. I seem to
> recall the suicide was mentioned by some Dayne or other, and maybe
> also by one of the kids hanging out with Jon or Arya ... but I don't
> remember.
>
Me neither, and you would think somebody would remember this. Pretty
horrifying, especially for a noble lady.
>
> Heh, mostly-dead.
>
> It might be fun if Ashara pops up to confirm the Evil Ned Thaery for
> us (more in other post). But I think too many separate sources have
> talked about / thought about her suicide to make it a forgery. Still,
> we'll have to see.
>
Yeah, she's been gone a looong time. For this to make sense she would
have to be somebody we have seen already (in disguise or something)
and nobody fits the bill.
>
> > Wylla, who is still around, right?
>
> Not mentioned as dead. But not actually in the story, either, as I
> recall.
>
Nope, never even close.
>
> > This made me laugh. "Wylla Manderly (she was a Manderly, wasn't she?),
> > ah'll be back"
>
> I can see her gasping "you're terminated, fucker" and crushing him
> between her boobs.
>
> Maybe I should consider seeing a psychiatrist.
>
You do seem to have a thing for Wylla's boobs, but I can relate.
>
> It seems that the main - indeed the only - rumour to do the rounds is
> the one that backs up the Jon Snow story, which is very convenient for
> Ned. But this means Martin has turned a blind eye to the fact that
> switching and claiming babies in this way is a recipe for gossip, and
> wouldn't stand up to a stiff breeze unless the main players in the
> gossip had been believably involved / pregnant / not pregnant.
>
Yeah, for this to be believable there must be more to it than we know.
And I wouldn't have trouble with that, because we haven't actually had
any exposure to anyone from Starfall (other than Darkstar, who doesn't
appear to know anything useful).
>
> Could be (the first things you said, perhaps less of the one-eyed
> dragon although that is also a possibility). It might have been called
> the Tower of Joy because that was where Rhaegar went to escape from
> his horrible life and loser-arse family. And Lyanna did the same.
>
Or because there were a lot of sex-toys in it? I tried calling my own
one-eyed dragon the Tower of Joy, but my wife disagreed, came up with
a few other names, which I refuse to mention here.
>
> > There is no evidence of this. In fact Ned doesn't even have any fond
> > remembrance of Ashara, which if they did have this relationship you
> > would think he would have. In fact he hardly thinks about her at all.
> > Even his relationship with Catelyn is warm at best.
>
> Indeed. Very interesting, right there.
>
Maybe there is something to be said for the Rhaegar-Ned thing?
>
> Hee hee, I could dig it. Although I am not expecting any sort of
> explanation for the amazing Days of Our Lives twist. There should be
> explanation, but I'm thinking we'll just end up with Jon being
> Lyanna's kid, with no real sense of how the fuck it happened.
>
> And the Jon Targaryen Thaerists won't care. It makes me sad.
>
I don't know. This is kind of a vital element to the overall
storyline, and Martin doesn't usually leave such things unexplained. I
suspect we will get a fairly detailed explanation, though one that
makes sense is tough to conceive right now.
>
> The gelding was done by a shaman when he was a street urchin with no
> prospects, at least according to the line Varys spun for Tyrion.
>
> Actually, "Arya" sounds about as Valyrian as "Varys".
>
Eh, maybe, though the YA doesn't make any appearances in Valyria that
I am aware of, mostly IA for women. Lots of YS and VAR combinations or
variations for men (and women), though. Both are missing the popular
vowel combinations, though (AE seems the most popular).
>
> Agreed. The names, after all, come from somewhere. For all the Roberts
> and Eddards and Brandons, we have Viseryses and Aryses and Varyses
> that must have some cultural basis, if not a dynastic one.
>
> If Varys was a Targaryen, he was a distant and unimportant enough
> Targaryen to a) get his bits cut off by a shaman who wanted to burn
> them and communicate with demons; b) survive the Robellion and
> continue as a Small Council member. That means that no direct links
> were found ... although Varys probably controls that information so no
> big surprise there.
>
You make an interesting point, but I think it supports my Targaryen
theory. The shaman clearly thought that Varys' privates held some
power. Even though he did not identify Varys as someone important, why
choose him in the first place? Given that we have plenty of other
evidence that royal blood has lots of power, you would think that
royal "jewels" would be even more important. Though it could be yet
another coincidence...
> Still, in that the Targaryens were huge inbreeders and they were
> basically the pinnacle of the empire of Old Valyria, it's safe to say
> that a Valyrian-style name could be traced, directly or otherwise, to
> the First Family of Valyria at some stage.
>
And they are relatively recent to Westeros, so there wouldn't be much
beyond 7th or 8th cousins. Given the inbreeding you mentioned (and the
fact that we have yet to see even ONE Targaryen cousin), there might
not even be any of those.
>
> Yeah. My hostility needs just the right sort of environment to thrive.
>
Not mine. It's like a cactus, can grow anywhere without water or
nutrition. In most cases it does not even need a reason to live.
>
> Ah, then we quibble over terminology. If there is a suggested point
> that we do not agree with, naturally we will consider this a
> credulity-straining coincidence rather than a plot element. If there
> is one we agree with, we will be more kindly inclined towards it and
> decide it is a plot element (or an "incidence", as I call them).
>
Of course! This is my basic perspective on life. If I agree with
something, it is important. If not, then not. Isn't that how everyone
sees things?
>
> He was locked up pretty much ever since Joffrey's wedding, so your
> recollection that he was locked up for a while wasn't wrong. However,
> the trial and the scheming all happened quickly, with one day of cases
> followed by a second day with Shae on the stand, at which point Oberyn
> agreed to stand in Tyrion's trial under the gods.
>
> I imagine that happened the same day, or the day after at the very
> latest, and then Tyrion was let out. Indeed, I can't see Tywin or
> Cersei hanging around long after Oberyn died, before declaring Tyrion
> guilty under the gods and having him killed.
>
Here is the only place that some time may have passed behind the
scenes, and you are right it couldn't have been very much time.
> So yeah, it pretty much had to happen within that window, especially
> if Tywin wanted to use Shae and then do whatever despicable thing to
> her that he was planning, and let Tyrion know about it or witness it
> before he died.
>
Important point, which certainly strengthens your (conceded) argument
about taking Shae to bed. For it to have impact, it had to be quick.
> > I hate to rob you of the argument, but I am
> > prepared to admit when evidence does not support my opinion.
>
> But my huge post!
>
> Well, we found this, we'll find something else.
>
Indubitably!
>
> I can dig it.
>
> And the split between Jaime and Cersei was healed (or *was* it?) by
> Cersei's arrest by the sparrows. Another interesting twist - and Varys
> is nowhere to be seen (or *is* he?).
>
Hmm...I wouldn't be surprised if he was still around. Also I think the
split was certainly NOT healed, as she called for his help and he
basically said "Nope!"
>
> > Agreed, though perhaps not as obvious. Tyrion actually turned out to
> > be something of a fighter himself in the Mountains of the Moon.
> > However it can certainly be given that in a fair fight, Tywin beats
> > Tyrion 99% of the time.
>
> Yep, and I reckon Varys would be wary of those odds.
>
Undoubtedly. Varys did appear to admire Tyrion, but certainly not for
his stature on the battlefield (something that Varys did not admire in
any case).
>
> Well, it was Jaime's admission that made Tyrion go back and kill
> Tywin. It may not have been Jaime's desire to see Tyrion do that, but
> he still made the confession - as part of his own self-discovery,
> perhaps.
>
Certainly. I can't conceive of Jaime wanting (even subconsciously) for
Tyrion to harm Tywin. Maybe he harbored some anger toward either or
both of them, but I can't believe he would want them to come to a
physical confrontation. If anything I think that Jaime's goal was to
set Tyrion free and assuage some of his guilt, not throw him back into
the lion's den.
>
> I don't know, I'm pretty sure (as mentioned way back at the start of
> this discussion) Varys did mention that the Hand used that tunnel in
> days of yore, and it went straight out to the Hand's private chambers.
> Or maybe Jaime mentioned this.
>
> Damn it, I'll have to re-read it.
>
Sure, and Tyrion was aware of the tunnels, but we don't see him ever
using the one that goes to the jail, so there is no reason to believe
he knew the twists and turns.
>
> But it didn't. Varys may have known Tyrion would run into Jaime, and
> indeed he did. Whether that was a success or a failure depends on
> whether Varys was godlike enough to know Jaime would convince Tyrion
> to go back, or whether Varys wanted Jaime to capture Tyrion (or Tyrion
> to kill Jaime). It's all just a confused mess which is what happens
> when people try to make out that Varys can puppet-master everything.
>
Not everything of course, but the attempt to stir up the shit was
certainly there.
>
> Um, no ... you are mistaken. I've said from the start that Tyrion knew
> how to get to the Tower of the Hand because of Varys. It is (apart
> from the fact that Varys freed him) the most important "coincidence"
> that Varys was a part of.
>
And certainly not a "coincidence", most definitely intentional, though
as you say Varys could not have counted on what happened next.
> The fact that Tyrion ignored this hint until such time as Jaime
> changed his mind, suggests that this is at best a Varys-plot that only
> succeeded by incredible luck on Varys's part. Which is not by any
> means a usual Varys-plot. And leads me to wonder just what he wanted
> to happen.
>
I think that maybe a lot of Varys plans are "put a lot of schemers and
people who generally have ill will towards each other in the same room
and then let them sort it out". Generally if you dislike both parties
(and really who does Varys like?) then something good for you will
come out of it.
> It also pays to remember that Varys went on the lam pretty much at
> this exact point too. Maybe all he wanted was a jailbreak, and
> anything else that happened was a bonus. They'd be looking for a
> dwarf, not a genitalia-reduced master of disguise.
>
Absolutely agree, though Varys' involvement in this was sure to come
to light in most possibilities. Thus the disappearance.
>
> As I've said all along, Varys was responsible for Tyrion knowing where
> to go. *Jaime*, however, is responsible for Tyrion going there.
> Varys's plan, if plan it was, fell apart when Tyrion went "uh huh" and
> walked away. It came back together, in a completely un-Varysish way,
> when Jaime slapped the Tysha Confession on his brother's head.
>
Sure, no argument on why he went, and very unlikely that Varys could
have thought of it going down as it did.
>
> No, he's an amazing nadless puppeteer, which makes him believable,
> readable, and enjoyable.
>
Sure, the Jigsaw thing would be unbelievable. As is I enjoy him very
much. He doesn't need to be omniscient.
>
> No no no no, see above. You're on the wrong track in fixating on this.
> He never would have gone back if it hadn't been for Jaime. Fact.
>
Truth, never argued it wasn't.
> The fact that he knew where to go is an *unrelated fact*.
>
But an important one, as it reveals Varys' involvement. Overall
machinations aside, Varys did provide this important detail.
> He did know where he wanted to go, at each step. He knew which way was
> out, because Varys told him, and he knew which way was in, because
> Varys had told him before he headed out. He headed back in because of
> Jaime.
>
Agreed on both of these points.
> But I want to have another read-through of this, anyway.
>
Me too, though I suspect it won't be as grandiose as the debate has
been.
>
> > But what would he turn into when he shapeshifted? Disturbing images.
>
> Alien face-hugger.
>
Speaking of, where is Ilya? Haven't heard anything from him, usually
he drops back into debates like this...
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:01:15 -0700 (PDT), Rob Wilson
>
> fact that they were the only people there looking after a pregnant
> woman and were not letting anyone else through or her out. I mean,
> that might be abusive ... but ordering them, and Lyanna, into that
> situation in the first place is plain mad.
>
much more important than any of his other children (or wife for that
matter). That's the only thought put out there that makes this make
sense.
>
> >Perhaps because he knew
> >there was an uprising forming.
>
> There wasn't one, I always suspected, before the whole
> Lyanna-incident. Robert went to war for her. Maybe it was coming
> anyway?
>
More importantly, Ned did. I suspect that without the North, Robert
would have fallen on his face, judging from the strength of Robb's
army, presumably the equivalent of Ned's. Add that to Robert (who did
not appear to have many other significant allies). In any case the
Lannisters were much more scared of Ned than they were of Robert.
> >Or he knew that she was the mother of
> >the Quisach Haderach and must therefore be protected?
>
> Yes, there it is. At least this was what we are led to believe.
>
As mentioned, this is the only possibility that makes sense to involve
the Kingsguard at the Tower.
>
> >Ned and Rhaegar were lovers and Lyanna was contracted to have their
> >love-child! This is why Jon is Ned's bastard son. This is why Rhaegar
> >was so protective of Lyanna.
>
> And that's why Ned went to King's Landing with Robert even though he
> knew it would kill him! And that's why the deer stuck its prong in the
> direwolf! Gadzooks man, do you know what this *means*?
>
Summer Lovin'. Maybe this is why Robert never came North, Ned secretly
hated him for killing Rhaegar. Or was worried about Ned warming him up
instead...
Ben
Ben
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> >being pregnant with Rhaegar's child (assuming that this is the case)
>
> Concur. If they'd known that, there would be even more holes in Ned's
> bastard-story, and they *would* have been actively cruel in denying
> anyone entry. It's funny that they didn't let her brother in, but it
> may be that they didn't even know Lyanna was there. Maybe they thought
> Rhaegar's real family was there? Wouldn't point of view chapters later
> on have let us know what Barristan etc. thought of the whole situation
> in hindsight, if they'd found out one way or another.
>
certainly never know if the others did.
> I'm just not sure. If they'd known enough to make their fight with Ned
> villainous, he would have reviled them in his memory. If they'd been
> that pig-ignorant and still fought unquestioningly, he would have
> thought less of them. Mind you, if they had genuinely thought they
> were doing their duty and Ned believed it...
>
Which is pretty clearly the case. Ned understood what they were doing
there, which indicates that he certainly knew the importance.
> Unless of course they were pretty much doing as they were told, and
> Ned deceived them all and *that's* why he thinks kindly of them in
> hindsight...
>
Hard to believe, even with the Evil Ned Thaery.
> >and with the time it is difficult to tell if Rhaegar would have known,
> >since we don't know how long he was out fighting and away from the
> >Tower.
>
> Wow, you think he was away since before she showed signs of pregnancy?
> This doesn't sound like prophecy-man to me.
>
Reading some other sources it sounds like he was away quite a bit, but
from the books I can't remember this. It would make more sense if he
was at the Tower quite a bit. Else how to do the dragon hypnotizes the
wolf thing?
> > think the story leads you to believe that she was being
> >protected against Robert and Eddard coming to get her, but to leave
> >the Kingsguard for that seems unlikely.
>
> Indeed. It seems strange.
>
And so almost certainly not the truth, whatever that truth turns out
to be.
>
> Personally, when it comes to the boring-arse story of Jon Snow's
> haunted past and unknown mysterious parentage, I feel I can wait that
> long quite easily.
>
Considering how important it appears to be and the angst of Jon's POV
chapters, I would suspect this may not even be revealed until the
final book, which should be out some time in the 22nd century.
Ben
Ben
wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:21:53 -0800 (PST), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yeah. Quite aside from the final scene between Tyrion and Tywin, I
> distinctly recall one scene where Tywin says some amazingly harsh
> things to Tyrion, about not being able to prove he's not his son, and
> so on. I remember reading that and thinking that anyone who could say
> something like that to anyone, let alone his own son, would pretty
> much be capable of any spiteful and irrational deed in the service of
> that hatred.
>
impressions of Tywin being an absolute motherfucker. That and the
"Gregor go and rape and kill anything that moves, not necessarily in
that order". But even that we only hear second-hand.
>
> >I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I initially disagreed that this
> >made sense, if you see my meaning.
>
> Not even for a moment. *grin*
>
> I thought you were all up in arms about it because you thought it
> would be cooler if Varys arranged the whole thing for some mysterious
> Varys-reason.
>
And this might have been the case. You have won me over to an
eminently cooler prospect of it being largely self-motivated and only
facilitated by Varys. I like it, as it doesn't change my opinion of
Varys but still emphasizes the impact of the scene.
>
> Heh, I can just see at it eating at Tywin for all those years, that he
> had these two wonderful golden Lannister kids and they turned out to
> be psycho little freaks, and then he had this stunted little monster
> who everybody laughed about, and he was the best one of the whole lot.
>
Absolutely. Curious that Martin identifies with this character himself
so strongly. I wonder at his background, though I can't imagine him
having an incestuous golden-haired twin brother and sister...<g>
Genetics alone should preclude that.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I'm just not sure. If they'd known enough to make their fight with Ned
>> villainous, he would have reviled them in his memory. If they'd been
>> that pig-ignorant and still fought unquestioningly, he would have
>> thought less of them. Mind you, if they had genuinely thought they
>> were doing their duty and Ned believed it...
>
>Which is pretty clearly the case. Ned understood what they were doing
>there, which indicates that he certainly knew the importance.
This leaves us wondering how Ned can see guarding his sister so she
can die alone in a good light, in hindsight. Interesting.
>> Unless of course they were pretty much doing as they were told, and
>> Ned deceived them all and *that's* why he thinks kindly of them in
>> hindsight...
>
>Hard to believe, even with the Evil Ned Thaery.
Yeah.
>> Personally, when it comes to the boring-arse story of Jon Snow's
>> haunted past and unknown mysterious parentage, I feel I can wait that
>> long quite easily.
>
>Considering how important it appears to be and the angst of Jon's POV
>chapters, I would suspect this may not even be revealed until the
>final book, which should be out some time in the 22nd century.
Pre-order now.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Well, these guys weren't necessarily abusive, unless you count the
>> fact that they were the only people there looking after a pregnant
>> woman and were not letting anyone else through or her out. I mean,
>> that might be abusive ... but ordering them, and Lyanna, into that
>> situation in the first place is plain mad.
>
>Not if you accept the theory that Rhaegar was believing that Jon was
>much more important than any of his other children (or wife for that
>matter). That's the only thought put out there that makes this make
>sense.
Which puts an interesting question mark over his whole "what a nice
guy" memory.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> Cut a lot out of this one as several of my arguments at this point
> seem rather tenuous. I'll have to write up a new one so we can find
> something new to argue about.
Yeah, I should hunt down the next CHOW and post it ... damn I'm lazy.
> > A close second, to me, would be the confirmation of the Jon Targaryen
> > Theory at the cost of everything we thought we knew about Noble Ned.
> > No way could you keep a secret like this without bumping off a few
> > people.
>
> Even just a few dark and underhanded things would make this work. I
> don't see this happening, though. I don't have a lot to base this on,
> but I don't see Ned coming out as a grim and ruthless fellow.
Sadly, I agree. It would be fun to see Martin do it, but it just
doesn't seem likely - even though the whole thaery is a work in
progress at this point. This leaves us with little more than the
tenuous hope that Martin will manage to do *something* interesting
with the plot.
> > And Rhaegar, it can only be hoped. See, one of the foundation stones
> > of the Jon Targaryen Thaery is that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna and
> > rape her, but that they were in wuv. The scenes of the winter rose and
> > the tourney and all that, not to mention Lyanna's flashback-scenes
> > talking about Robert, seem to suggest it. And everyone seems hell-bent
> > on Rhaegar being a nice guy even though nobody who knew him really
> > talks about it (except Ned, who is a fairly reliable barometer for
> > evil).
>
> And this is the deal-breaker for Rhaegar being dark and twisted. Ned
> seems to have a very good recognition of him, has what appears to be
> very legitimate reasons to hate and despise him, but instead seems to
> have some reverence for him. The only way this works is that Ned was
> really completely ignorant of the situation, which is something I am
> prepared to believe. He was not the most aware fellow.
*nod* It's a way out, but still not a hugely satisfying one. Ned could
have been completely fooled by Rhaegar (especially since Lyanna was
all he had to go on, and she was brainwashed), and thought well of him
ever since ... but it just seems more likely that he thought well of
Rhaegar because Rhaegar was a genuinely nice guy.
The issue of him leaving his wife and children to die when he eloped
with Lyanna is a bit of a bump in the road here. I can't envision Ned
thinking *that* was okay, yet evidently he did for some reason.
> > Rhaegar goes off with his army to get his chest landscaped at the
> > Trident, but not before shipping Lyanna off to the Tower of Joy with a
> > few of the "good" Kingsguard and orders to defend her with their
> > lives. Their obedience to this strange order would need to be
> > explained, but we can manage for now because this needs to be
> > explained for every version of this Thaery. In the meantime, Tywin
> > lets the enemy into King's Landing, Jaime kills Aerys and Gregor kills
> > Rhaegar's legitimate family, none of which he gives a shit about
> > because he is bugfuck insane and believes that Lyanna is bearing the
> > True Messiah. Indeed, he probably left Elia and the kids without a
> > single Kingsguard to protect them specifically because he *wanted*
> > them to die in the battle.
>
> Any number of explanations would serve why they were there, whether
> they had any understanding or not. This group did not appear to be all
> that knowledgeable and interpretive. In fact it is unlikely that Aerys
> (who presumably appointed most of them, if not all of them) would
> allow anyone with an independent streak to become a Kingsguard. He
> wasn't one to be questioned.
Hmm, although Barristan was a good guy ... maybe not the most
independent sort, at least until later on when the Lannisters started
using white cloaks as toilet paper. But was this worse than the stuff
the Targaryens did? Interesting.
> > Ned and Howland bust their way into the Tower of Joy and find Lyanna
> > just about dead, but she's had nine months of torture and brainwashing
> > to go completely Oldtown Syndrome on him, and Ned can't bring himself
> > to kill the child that Lyanna now believes is so important. She dies,
> > and Ned is there with the baby and Howland "Mister Wolf" Reed goes,
> > "okay, damage control..."
>
> Lyanna as Patti Hearst, I like it... Also it explains Ned's ignorance
> regarding Rhaegar slightly (if you discount the obvious physical
> torture).
This may not have been so evident, if you follow the party line that
Lyanna's wounds began and ended with those incurred during a rough
childbirth. Robert was the one who said she had been raped and
tortured for days and weeks ... something he was probably led to
believe by Ned without necessarily examining the body.
For that matter, a pregnant woman is still pretty big in the belly
department after giving birth. If Lyanna died in childbirth, she would
have still had a bulge. How did Ned and Howland hide *that* from
everybody? Did they hand her over to the Silent Sisters before anyone
else could see her, and get them to cut her into bits and bleach her
bones for the trip back north?
Of course, we can always involve Howland again at this point, with a
cunning plan involving a sharp knife and a pig farm.
> I like this story a bit better if it was nearly all mental,
> and Lyanna actually was in pretty good physical condition at the
> Tower, but totally devoted to the Prince, whatever she felt when she
> first went to the tower.
Yeah, I can see it. Ned would have to be pretty na�ve to believe
Rhaegar was on the level ... but then, we sort of know that he was.
Could be an angle worth thinking about. For example, Ned has a sort of
a flashback about Lyanna, talking to Ned about Robert. I've always
thought her distaste for Robert (who was by all accounts at least as
glorious and glossy and athletic and skilled as Rhaegar) and his
womanising was a bit odd considering she then shacked up with a
married man. By all accounts, Robert loved Lyanna and his worst
excesses only came about as a result of losing her and having to marry
Cersei ... although I freely admit he was probably a dawg before that
as well.
Some of my fellow posters seemed to think this was easily explained by
the "well, it's okay if I'm the other woman, but not okay for me to be
jilted" attitude, but I'm not so sure. It just doesn't seem like a
consistent attitude, especially since her concern with Robert should
basically have been the same as with Rhaegar. At the start, in both
relationships, she would be the favoured other woman. But then, the
implication is that if he cheats once, he'll cheat again, leaving her
jilted. This would be a concern for Rhaegar too.
The far creepier explanation for this flashback is that Ned is
thinking about this because he's been turning it over in his head for
years, trying to come to terms with why Lyanna was so apparently happy
to do with Rhaegar what she didn't want to do with Robert. Why, if she
was as willing and happy as she had seemed to be when she died, had
she been so concerned with Robert's hypothetical future infidelity?
Ned's thoughts fit the idea - that he was fooled into remembering
Rhaegar kindly in spite of the fact that Lyanna and all of Rhaegar's
family died as a result of his actions, by Lyanna being so adoring.
But this still didn't quite mesh with what Ned remembers about Lyanna.
And it haunts him. We see him have these flashbacks a couple of times
before his death, in fact he is almost as fixated on it as Cersei is
fixated on Maggie the Frog.
> > Next thing you know, Ned is marching out of there with an inexplicable
> > baby, stopping by at Starfall or wherever and finding a
> > conveniently-pregnant or just-birthed Ashara Dayne, leaving Howland
> > behind there to throw her off a building and spread rumours that the
> > baby was Ned's, and then riding off into the sunset with Wylla and her
> > unstoppable bursting corset-gourds.
>
> This is where it goes off the rails a bit. Where did the baby come
> from? Was Ashara already associated with Ned? Where did the baby
> (whether born or not) go?
Indeed.
> Who in Starfall gives a damn about Howland
> Reed (even in the North this guy was obscure)? And the Dayne family
> (presumably a fairly powerful one at this point, though clearly not in
> the present)? No objections to any of this? This also makes Wylla very
> aware of what was going on (which appears to be the case regardless),
> which supports one of the earlier questions I had.
Yep. Something is definitely rotten with this flawless "Pretend Jon is
Ned's bastard" plot.
> > Rhaegar (unbeknownst to Ned, but knownst to us) arranged with Tywin to
> > betray the city, but he also made sure his father knew where the
> > wildfire was buried. When Jaime killed Aerys, it stymied that plan and
> > allowed Tywin to take the city. Net result: Rhaegar dies at the
> > Trident smelling of roses, while Tywin and Jaime look like giant
> > douchebags in Ned's eyes because they betrayed their posts. Ned,
> > fighting to avenge his family, had no sworn position to betray (aside
> > from his oath to the throne, which may be part of his ongoing and
> > disastrous attempts to be a goody two-shoes the rest of his life) and
> > so he could afford to look down on Jaime and Tywin.
>
> Here the stretch is too much. I can't conceive of Rhaeger being
> involved in the betrayal of the city. I also may be missing the point.
> What would Aerys have done with the wildfire? Burned King's Landing?
> Why? I think you are thinking something bigger than I am reading here.
Aerys certainly intended to burn King's Landing at the height of the
rebellion. He said it himself, the usurper would be left as the king
of ashes. Jaime stopped it by catching the pyromancer and killing him
(I seem to recall).
If Aerys had this plan, and Rhaegar was going to light out for the
north where he would raise the Prince of Destiny with Lyanna and live
happily (and slightly crazily) ever after, I don't see that he would
have a problem with it. Of course, this is the little-seen
nutty-Rhaegar we're talking about. The Rhaegar I like.
> From Net result on I am with you, but the earlier part doesn't make
> sense to me. I also think that Ned could have broken his oath to the
> crown because of the dead brother and father, kidnapped and raped
> sister, etc. No real objection to that, and it's certainly textually
> supported.
Although raped sister would not have left Ned thinking kindly of
Rhaegar no matter how many poor starving puppies he saved.
> > I don't know, Barristan is an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in
> > an impractically pristine white uniform.
>
> That occured to you too? Warriors in white uniforms have always been
> very impractical. Barristan still has a good story to tell, though, I
> agree.
I guess if the general idea is that a would-be killer would have to
get through the whole kingdom, the entire army, the city walls, the
castle fortifications and the palace guard to threaten the King in the
first place, maybe the Kingsguard didn't get dirty that often.
Of course, in practice this is not the case.
> > > Any of them that were there still around? I am trying to remember who
> > > is left from that original Kingsguard. The group from the Trident
> > > died, Jaime most certainly did not and does not know what the deal was
> > > with Lyanna, and as I mentioned neither did Barristan. Oakheart is
> > > dead, and he seemed particularly dense. Who else was there?
>
> > I don't remember. There were at least three, I think.
>
> Cheated a bit and researched:
>
> Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, 'The White Bull'
> Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning
> Ser Oswell Whent
Yep, so there were the three, and Ned remembers them as worthy and
honourable men.
> All three of these were killed at the Tower of Joy
>
> Prince Lewyn Martell
> Ser Jonothor Darry
>
> Both of these were killed at the Trident
*nod*
> Leaving just Barristan and Jaime, who we talked about before.
Were they both in King's Landing? I guess they were - although for
some reason I had Barristan picked as one of the Tower of Joy guys,
the one who survived. Evidently not.
> Still think it's kind of silly and dopy on Tywin's part, but
> we are not going to agree on that.
I think we can agree that it was stupid of Tywin to summon Shae to his
chambers and (prepare to?) fuck her. I think we're going to disagree
on the unnecessary trouble he was going to go to in order to do so,
but that's not a huge issue. The main point here is that Tywin *did*
get Shae in his room, and either fucked her or was going to fuck her
after he'd taken a dump. Stupid or not, he did this.
Because the alternative is Varys dragging Shae around and feeding
Tywin laxatives so he could position her in bed without being noticed.
> > Well, we're taking his puritan attitude where Tyrion's whoring is
> > concerned, combined with his general demeanour of not giving a crap
> > where anyone else is concerned, his treatment of "whores" in the past,
> > and the fact that he betrayed no surprise at all when he saw that
> > Tyrion had entered the apartment using the secret tunnel that the Hand
> > classically used to traffic whores.
>
> Conjecture there.
Granted.
> The last hand did (Tyrion himself), but the few
> before that (Jon Arryn and Ned) almost certainly did not. And Tywin
> using it that way is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Again something we
> have no evidence for. In fact we have no evidence that ANY Hand
> (besides Tyrion) used it this way, though the odds are that some of
> them did.
I would say the odds are good that Tywin used it this way to get Shae
to his rooms. But I don't know, since she was a servant in the house
and under guard (or whatever) due to her part in the trial, maybe it
was easier to just summon her.
Either way, he is not surprised to see Tyrion in his room, so he would
have to have guessed that he came through the secret tunnel.
But yeah, I grant you this is just guesswork.
> > I raise my eyebrows dubiously at this, but accept your general point.
> > I guess if you really think someone is nothin', it's hard to get
> > excited about screwing someone who has evidently deemed him worthy of
> > sack-time. Maybe a whore is a different concept.
>
> Maybe, and on this point I don't have enough knowledge to make an
> accurate assessment. But to Tyrion, Shae was certainly more than just
> a whore.
Oh sure. But it was Tywin's mentality we were thinking about here.
> > I'm not seeing the hassle, would you care to explain it to me?
>
> Read a little bit further down.
*reads, entranced*
> I think our respective definitions of hassle are the problem here. You
> define hassle as "major political scandal potentially ruining your
> family" while I define it as "I need to get rid of this whore and make
> sure that nobody knows she was here". In modern terms, your hassle is
> the equivalent apparently of cheating on your wife and getting caught,
> while my definition of hassle is flirting with a receptionist at work
> and her responding when you weren't really interested in the first
> place. Uncomfortable, but not life-damaging. Note that I am not trying
> to put words in your mouth, but trying to understand you not seeing
> the hassle (fairly minor inconvenience, but an inconvenience
> nonetheless) if it is not a calamity (which there are any number of
> better defining terms for than hassle).
Okay, I'll grant you this. It would have been a hassle. Taking off
breeches with leather-thong fastenings to take a crap would also have
been a hassle.
Now, the disagreement wasn't necessarily over whether it was a hassle
or not, although owing to our differing definitions (as you rightly
say) it may have gone over that way. I think it's safe to say that the
real disagreement was over whether or not this was a hassle Tywin
considered worth enduring.
Now, as I have said, the alternatives are:
a) Yes, Tywin considered the hassle (major by your definition, minor
by mine) to be worth the reward, so he went ahead with it.
b) No, Tywin did not consider the hassle worth it (or simply did not
consider the deed at all), so did not go ahead with it.
Now option a) seems to be what we're agreeing on here, since option b)
opens the door to Varys leaving a little tape-recorder in the room
saying, "Good evening, Tyrion. I want to play a game..."
So we're not really left with a disagreement here.
> > I think there is evidence to support Tywin's actions, hypocritical at
> > best and borderline psychopathic at worst. As I said in my earlier
> > post, it is there in his scenes with Tyrion if you opt to read them
> > that way. It is, of course, a matter of conjecture since we are never
> > going to get a break-down of his life and times and thoughts and
> > deeds.
>
> Indeed, and I think that there is some room to vary opinions on
> Tywin's character and motivations.
I'm not seeing much to convince me of that, really. What have we seen
that would cast Tywin into a more favourable light out of this?
> See above. Note that I never defined this as anything earth-shaking,
> just something not worth doing. Clearly for Tywin it was worth doing,
> so the point is moot.
Ah, there we have it.
> However it was a hassle (by a normal definition
> of hassle), and one that a rational person would almost certainly
> avoid.
Fair enough. I also retract and/or backflip on another of my comments
(mentioned later) about this being comparable to Tysha's disposal.
Shae was considerably less hassle than Tysha, with considerably less
people involved. And yet (I think this was my point but it didn't go
across very well) Tywin considered the Tysha incident worth the hassle
of arranging.
So I think we're well beyond considering what a rational person would
avoid.
> Sure, and that Tywin could have done it without too much trouble is
> absolutely true. But for me, that's still kind of a pain. Hell, maybe
> Tywin liked doing that dance, but I don't think that he did, given his
> otherwise fairly direct character. Even the evil shit that he did he
> did fairly openly (with a few notable exceptions).
Agreed. I think he did most of what he did right out in the open, and
didn't sneak around. I think with Tysha, he just found some of his
meanest arseholes (he'd know these guys by simple experience, even if
they weren't Bloody Mummers) and told them he wanted them to teach a
whore a lesson. Then they did it. Nothing much for Tywin to cover up.
With Shae, equally, I think Tywin's character wouldn't leave much
space for sneaking around and trying to hide. His hypocrisy was more
than up to the task of doing this pretty much barefaced, as I
described before. If there were appearances to maintain and secrets to
be kept, I think he could have done so without too much difficulty. A
hassle, if you like, but one he considered well worth enduring.
Nothing was too difficult if it meant hurting Tyrion - certainly not
this.
> Yeah, though I wonder what would have come next. Not really all that
> important, but there would have been some work involved I am sure
> (thus the "hassle" <grin>)
I still think Tywin could have just summoned Qyburn with one of his
potions, and told him to take the chambermaid away. Nobody would have
talked after that. The whole thing became a near-scandal because
nobody was there to hide the bodies in the end.
> > I don't think what Tywin did to Tysha was any more of a "hassle" than
> > what he did to Shae - or was working on doing to her.
>
> Now I am certain that our definitions vary.
Yeah, here is what I meant before when I said I got it backwards.
Tysha's situation probably took more arranging, and had more
witnesses, and there was more chance of various people complaining. We
don't see Tysha's family and the devastation this caused. We don't see
Tysha again. We don't see the gang-rapists. Presumably, all of this
was either dealt with or coldly ignored by Tywin thereafter.
The Shae situation was more controllable, although possibly with more
room for personal embarrassment because now Tywin was doing the
fucking. But still easy enough for him to deal with - and as I think
we agreed, hassle or not, it was evidently not too much hassle for him
to bother with, because he quite obviously bothered with it.
> Tywin opened himself up to be hated. Who does this? Just to make
> a point to their son? A vicious, cruel, and evil point involving the
> rape of a poor peasant girl and the complicity of at least a dozen
> men?
And clearly, Tywin considered this worth doing. Because as I said, no
evil is too great, too irrational or hateful, for Tyrion Lannister.
> That to me is quite a bit more of a hassle than the Shae thing
> would have been. And to say it was no hassle makes it clear that "You
> keep using that word, I do na' think it means what you think it
> means".
Heh. Granted. I can amend my objection to the concept of "too much
hassle to be worth doing", since almost everything can be defined as a
hassle if you loosen the definition enough.
> > Yeah, I ... wait, what? I'd like you to explain what Varys's plan was
> > here, because at the moment it just makes no sense. Did he want Shae
> > dead, or Tywin, or Tyrion? Tyrion wouldn't have gone back to Tywin's
> > room, let alone killed him, if it hadn't been for Jaime - which had
> > nothing to do with Varys. And Tyrion certainly wouldn't have gone
> > after Shae to kill her.
>
> > This leaves us with Varys letting Tyrion out of his cell, arming him
> > and letting slip that Tywin's room is thataway. Against which I have
> > never argued. The rest of what happened couldn't have been planned. It
> > was just luck - luck for Varys that Tyrion happened to decide to go
> > back, and luck for Tyrion that he happened upon a situation that
> > allowed him to kill two people while armed with a crossbow.
>
> Okay, but you do agree that Varys did set this whole thing in motion.
Absolutely. Varys and Jaime were in on the plan to get Tyrion out,
although I can't be sure I remember the order of their involvement or
be certain of the depth.
> I never said that Varys planned to have Tyrion kill Tywin. There is no
> way that he could have known that was going to go down. My thought was
> much more, "put these two in the same room and watch the fireworks".
Could be.
Of course, leaving out the idea that Varys made Shae happen and put
Tywin on the toilet, there are many ways this whole thing could
benefit Varys and few ways to see it costing him.
The way I see it, Varys would likely have been blamed for Tyrion
escaping. This was reason for him to want Tywin dead, but as we have
seen from the way the story went down, this left Cersei howling for
Varys's blood too. To avoid punishment for this he would have had to
kill a whole heap of people. Or disappear - and disappear is exactly
what he did. I think he was going to disappear regardless of what
happened with Tyrion.
In fact, here's my own theory of what happened:
Varys knows that things are falling into place, Westeros is in chaos
and King's Landing is no longer safe - or won't be for long. Danaerys,
whatever Varys's connection with her, is on her way and Westeros is
going to be a mess when she arrives. So he decides to pack up and
leave.
He wants to leave a bit of mess behind, throw off the pursuit and also
help the closest thing he has to a friend in the enemy camp. So he
lets Tyrion out of his cell and explains about the tunnels. Maybe at
this point he is hoping Tyrion will go and kill Tywin. Maybe he knows
Tywin is with Shae and this would make it that much more likely for
Tyrion to kill him/them. This would be ideal, because Tywin would be a
cool-headed and implacable hunter as opposed to Cersei, who sets fire
to the Tower of the Hand and tells her minions to go out and chop off
the head of every dwarf or small child they can find.
Tyrion doesn't go, but Varys's plan was pretty loose as you have said,
just fling a cat among the pigeons and scarper while the feathers are
flying. So Varys shrugs and lights out for the territories. Tyrion
runs into Jaime, who may or may not have been involved at the
Varys-level all along, and then things proceed much as we saw. Better
than Varys could ever have (and did ever really) hoped for.
I am also fond of the idea that Varys is now the High Sparrow, but I
can pass on that if I have to. I guess we'll have to wait and see what
the High Sparrow does next.
> This was his plan and his plan was accomplished, though undoubtedly
> with much better results than he could have foreseen. However given
> his own admiration of Tyrion (which I think is the first sincere
> emotion that Varys has shown), I think he at least "hoped" that Tyrion
> would make something cool out of all this mess.
*nod*
I think we can agree on this.
Varys let Tyrion out of his cell and let him know, idly, the lay of
the land. The rest was not actively set up, because it didn't need to
be. His knowledge of goings-on around court and his reading of people
was enough, and even then it was just amazing luck that ended with the
situation as it unfolded.
The power of the scene, and the closure Tyrion achieves, are not
artificial and are therefore satisfying.
> Oh yeah, and I guess this is why the moment would not be lessened to
> have Varys involved deeply (for me at least). The resonance of getting
> shot while taking a dump is just humiliating, and the perfect way for
> Tywin to be remembered. Whereas if he would have died in battle, or
> was poisoned or something, then the smallfolk would have remembered
> him as a worthy adversary or a hated tyrant. As it is he will forever
> after be remembered as "the guy who died on the shitter".
Oh yes. This I liked. Martin really pulled out all the stops with this
one. Having Tywin stinking up his own funeral was also a stroke of
genius.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Oh yeah. That's certainly true enough. I guess they usually get the
> > budget for a good writer, a good batch of effects, or a good batch of
> > actors.
>
> Sometimes two out of three, almost never all three. I prefer the first
> and third, but like the second. In most cases recently, we get the
> second without either of the other two.
Heh, there we differ a little. I have been known to go for movies that
offer good effects and almost nothing else. "Independence Day", "The
Day After Tomorrow" and "2012" (although I haven't seen the latter)
are good examples.
"Eragon", while it had good actors and good effects, still managed to
suck in a way "ID4" and "The Day After Tomorrow" somehow failed to do
(for me). It is most strange, but does go to show that writing is
still needed, in some small way. Indeed, as you say, it may well be
the most important of the lot, because it takes some pretty special
BSTs to make up for a lack of story.
> Sure, and I can't picture these parents being all that shrewd
> businesspeople. This book must still be blowing their minds with how
> it took off. In any case, it proves that of your three elements, the
> MOST important is the first, and the one most often lacking. Then
> again you only get one Tolkien per generation, perhaps per century.
And this is why all the best-written shows, like "House" and "Boston
Legal" and to a certain degree "Lost", all died in the arse when the
writer's strike came down on them. You need writers.
> > I can't decide whether "I'm Fucking Matt Damon" or "I'm Fucking Ben
> > Affleck" was funnier. I'm going to go with the latter. Strangely,
> > about the only thing I have seen Silverman in was a bit-part in a
> > double-episode of "Star Trek: Voyager". It was a good episode and she
> > did OK, but I'm a stranger in a foreign land in that I actually liked
> > "Voyager".
>
> She's very kooky, but quite funny. Not a fan of Voyager myself, but I
> share the strangeness with you. I can't understand why more people
> didn't like Deep Space Nine. Babylon 5 was better, but Deep Space Nine
> was very good, and probably has the least fans.
Ah, "Voyager" was the one for me, closely followed by "DS9". I did
like that series. "Babylon 5" was also very cool. We watched "The
Original Series" and are now about two seasons into "The Next
Generation". While classic, I still preferred the lesser-liked ones.
Best part of "The Next Generation" so far has been the brief
appearance of the Borg.
> Problem is that Asimov dumbed-down is not Asimov. We have yet to see
> anything really clever of his hit the screen. The book this movie came
> from was far superior, but was certainly not the best of Asimov. Very
> popular I'll give, but certainly not his best work.
I look forward to seeing massive-budget film adaptations of the
Foundation series, or more Robots-styled stuff like the Elijah Bailey
stories. You know, in my dreams.
> I as well, even if they make all nine (though some of the later ones
> will never get made, too openly religious).
Nine? I thought there were only seven, including "The Magician's
Nephew". But yes, "The Last Battle" or whatever it was called, that
was definitely religious in nature ... maybe it will get past, if the
religious right over in America continue to foam and rant and strip
away the sanity of government and education at the rate they have
been.
We just watched an episode of "21 Jump Street" from the late 80s where
the issue of the day was a nutty teacher trying to teach Creationism
in the classroom, although it was against the law in public schools.
Funny how times change.
> > Could be (the first things you said, perhaps less of the one-eyed
> > dragon although that is also a possibility). It might have been called
> > the Tower of Joy because that was where Rhaegar went to escape from
> > his horrible life and loser-arse family. And Lyanna did the same.
>
> Or because there were a lot of sex-toys in it? I tried calling my own
> one-eyed dragon the Tower of Joy, but my wife disagreed, came up with
> a few other names, which I refuse to mention here.
As long as she had the good taste to steer clear of
Littlefinger-jokes.
> > Hee hee, I could dig it. Although I am not expecting any sort of
> > explanation for the amazing Days of Our Lives twist. There should be
> > explanation, but I'm thinking we'll just end up with Jon being
> > Lyanna's kid, with no real sense of how the fuck it happened.
>
> > And the Jon Targaryen Thaerists won't care. It makes me sad.
>
> I don't know. This is kind of a vital element to the overall
> storyline, and Martin doesn't usually leave such things unexplained. I
> suspect we will get a fairly detailed explanation, though one that
> makes sense is tough to conceive right now.
Here's to hoping. I'm sure he'll be able to do it without a long
exposition scene or unnecessary flashbacks. I won't be satisfied with
the Jon Targaryen Thaery until we get some answers.
> > If Varys was a Targaryen, he was a distant and unimportant enough
> > Targaryen to a) get his bits cut off by a shaman who wanted to burn
> > them and communicate with demons; b) survive the Robellion and
> > continue as a Small Council member. That means that no direct links
> > were found ... although Varys probably controls that information so no
> > big surprise there.
>
> You make an interesting point, but I think it supports my Targaryen
> theory. The shaman clearly thought that Varys' privates held some
> power.
Good point - evidently, they *did*. And this was back when Varys was a
kid, so magic would have been at even lower ebb. And the shaman still
got some sort of demon to talk to him, didn't he? As I recall, anyway.
Interestinger and interestinger.
> Even though he did not identify Varys as someone important, why
> choose him in the first place? Given that we have plenty of other
> evidence that royal blood has lots of power, you would think that
> royal "jewels" would be even more important. Though it could be yet
> another coincidence...
I still don't like Varys as secret royal family member, but there's
room for something there. Especially if he is the High Sparrow, and
will be basically in charge of the lowborn population by the time
Danaerys arrives!
> > Ah, then we quibble over terminology. If there is a suggested point
> > that we do not agree with, naturally we will consider this a
> > credulity-straining coincidence rather than a plot element. If there
> > is one we agree with, we will be more kindly inclined towards it and
> > decide it is a plot element (or an "incidence", as I call them).
>
> Of course! This is my basic perspective on life. If I agree with
> something, it is important. If not, then not. Isn't that how everyone
> sees things?
Well, I try not to. But only because it gives me a sense of smug
superiority.
> > And the split between Jaime and Cersei was healed (or *was* it?) by
> > Cersei's arrest by the sparrows. Another interesting twist - and Varys
> > is nowhere to be seen (or *is* he?).
>
> Hmm...I wouldn't be surprised if he was still around. Also I think the
> split was certainly NOT healed, as she called for his help and he
> basically said "Nope!"
Hey, he threw the message in the fire, but we don't know whether or
not he's going to respond yet. My guess would be "not", though.
> Certainly. I can't conceive of Jaime wanting (even subconsciously) for
> Tyrion to harm Tywin. Maybe he harbored some anger toward either or
> both of them, but I can't believe he would want them to come to a
> physical confrontation. If anything I think that Jaime's goal was to
> set Tyrion free and assuage some of his guilt, not throw him back into
> the lion's den.
Plus, of course, we have the fact that Jaime would not send Tyrion to
kill Tywin, because he'd most likely assume Tywin would win. So he
would essentially be sending Tyrion to his death, which doesn't mesh
with anything else he did and said in that scene.
> > I don't know, I'm pretty sure (as mentioned way back at the start of
> > this discussion) Varys did mention that the Hand used that tunnel in
> > days of yore, and it went straight out to the Hand's private chambers.
> > Or maybe Jaime mentioned this.
>
> > Damn it, I'll have to re-read it.
>
> Sure, and Tyrion was aware of the tunnels, but we don't see him ever
> using the one that goes to the jail, so there is no reason to believe
> he knew the twists and turns.
I seem to recall Varys saying, "this one here, for example, goes
straight to the Hand's chambers" or something. He didn't exactly have
to draw him a map, or labour the point.
> I think that maybe a lot of Varys plans are "put a lot of schemers and
> people who generally have ill will towards each other in the same room
> and then let them sort it out". Generally if you dislike both parties
> (and really who does Varys like?) then something good for you will
> come out of it.
Good point. Although as with the Jaime issue above, it does seem like
he was intentionally putting Tyrion in harm's way here without much
hope of his being able to come out on top. But sure, it's like Varys
to just open all the doors and see what happens. It would all benefit
him, and the worst that could foreseeably happen would be Tyrion going
to kill Tywin and getting killed himself, making Varys momentarily
sad.
> > It also pays to remember that Varys went on the lam pretty much at
> > this exact point too. Maybe all he wanted was a jailbreak, and
> > anything else that happened was a bonus. They'd be looking for a
> > dwarf, not a genitalia-reduced master of disguise.
>
> Absolutely agree, though Varys' involvement in this was sure to come
> to light in most possibilities. Thus the disappearance.
Yeah, like I said in my other post - Tywin would have blamed Varys for
Tyrion's escape, so it was to the good if Tyrion killed him. But not
vital to the plan. Because even with Tywin dead, Cersei would blame
Varys. With Cersei and Tywin dead, the Small Council would blame him.
Et cetera.
> But an important one, as it reveals Varys' involvement. Overall
> machinations aside, Varys did provide this important detail.
Since it was the overall machinations I wanted to shoot in the head
here, my honour is satisfied. Difficult to argue against Varys being
involved at all, since he appeared in the scene.
> > But I want to have another read-through of this, anyway.
>
> Me too, though I suspect it won't be as grandiose as the debate has
> been.
The reality is always a letdown.
> > > But what would he turn into when he shapeshifted? Disturbing images.
>
> > Alien face-hugger.
>
> Speaking of, where is Ilya? Haven't heard anything from him, usually
> he drops back into debates like this...
Oh, thanks for that weird random association.
C&J